WEBVTT - Anxious in Love 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:18.400 Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:23.160 am your host, Jen Kirkman. Well, another Valentine's Day has 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.200 come and gone. Did that affect you in any way? 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.560 I'm being a little silly about talking about Valentine's date 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.440 last week and then this week? But hey, I figured, 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:36.280 you know what, let's come modify it and talk about 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:37.680 love is. I don't even think I used the word 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.319 to modify correctly. There, that's okay, hang with me. So 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:46.280 if though unrelated to any Hallmark holiday or not, if 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:50.760 you are wondering why do I have such a bad picker. 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:57.320 If you are wondering why do I feel so devastated 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.000 after a breakup when I wasn't even with the person 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.920 that long, I can definitely list a million issues I 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.840 had with them that I wish could have changed. What 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.319 is happening? Why do I tend to meet the craziest 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.760 people and then I see other people and it just 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:17.160 seems to go so easy for them. So I talked 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.800 to therapist Cat Defata about all of this today. She 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.800 loves talking about attachment styles, which is the answer to 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.880 all your problems, or at least understanding them is um 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.600 at the beginning of your journey in knowing how to 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:36.400 work on some things that might change the way you 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.080 show up for or don't show up for, not just 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:44.120 romantic relationships, but all relationships and even relationship to self. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.400 But we were talking, you know, a little bit before 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:52.320 the microphone was recording, about that TV show, The Millionaire Matchmaker, 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.360 and uh, the woman on it would always say to 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.240 her clients, your pickers off, your pickers off, you know, 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.240 you like the thing that makes you pick people. And 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:08.040 I find that so incredibly frustrating because I think, what 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.480 the millionaire well, what I know the Millionaire Matchmaker is 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.760 getting wrong? And I know it's just a cute expression, right, 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.200 It's a it's a way of her saying, this is 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.639 your fault. But like, you're not inherently bad, and yes 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.840 you're worthy of love, but you're making some mistakes in 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.280 your choices. But it's not about the first choice you make. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.600 It's not about oh my god. People with a good 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.640 picker say yes to someone who asks them out, and 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:33.200 they inherently know that that person would make a great partner, 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.000 and they say no to all the troubled people. Not really, 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.720 It's less about the initial moment of picking you know, 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.360 someone to go on a date with or have a 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.920 crush on. But what do you do when it's not 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.160 meeting your needs? Even if you know that within a 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:50.560 couple of days, even if you see massive red flags 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.040 within a few days, do you stay and think, well, 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.360 maybe I'm wrong or maybe it'll get better. Do you 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.400 ignore the feeling in your stomach that says this just 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:05.800 isn't it. That is where making choices comes in. And 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.919 that's if you want to use the expression you're pickers off. 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.760 You're picking to stay other people that you think are 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.799 quote normal, they would just piece out at that point 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.800 and you might not even ever hear about these stories. Right. 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:24.240 It's like going into a clothing store and you try 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.240 on a million things, and if you end up buying 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.320 a bunch of stuff that, well, it doesn't fit now, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.640 but after next week, you know, I'm going to have 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:35.200 that root canal and then i won't be able to 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.520 eat for a few days, and so I'll probably lose 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.080 a lot of water weight. So these pants will fit 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:43.520 perfectly in about a week. Oh well, you know this 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:45.880 doesn't quite look good on me, But I'll figure it 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.360 out if you just think of it that way. In 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.360 terms of shopping, it's like, are you doing that in relationships? Well, 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:55.840 you know nobody's perfect, so and it's like, well, no 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.360 one's looking for perfection, but does it fit you? And 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.280 you know you might see someone who doesn't have the 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.520 same Well, I'm gonna well, I'm gonna stop with this 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:07.400 stupid clothing analogy. I think you get what I'm saying. 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.640 I was going to continue. I just saved you from 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:11.280 hearing me go. Well, and then the person who tries 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.160 on something, I mean, I can't believe I thought I 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.200 should do that. Anyway, you don't need to hear me 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.560 babbling anymore. Let's just get to this episode. But I 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.000 met um Cat de Fata when I was on her podcast, 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.200 which is also here on the i Heart Radio network. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.240 I Heart podcasts her therapy, her therapy. Her podcast is 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:34.360 called You Need Therapy. And I was on her show 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.040 a few months ago, and she is just such a delight, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.039 and she's so smart and she's so excited to talk 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.919 about therapy and psychology that that's my favorite kind of 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.080 guests is just I mean, actually, no one on this 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:49.960 show has not been excited, so I don't know what 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:51.839 I'm talking about, but let's get right into it now, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.320 actually right now. Um On her own podcast, You Need 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.320 Therapy podcast dot com, Cat Defata is doing a whole 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:04.200 series really in depth on attachment styles. So definitely listen 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.680 to this episode first, find out more about it, and 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.920 we do talk about our personal experiences, and then head 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.839 on over to her podcast and really dive deep. But um, so, 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.360 Catherine de Fatah is a licensed therapist. She has her 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.200 master's degree. She's the founder of Three Chords Therapy, which 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.920 is a private group therapy practice in Nashville, Tennessee. She's 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.680 the host, as I mentioned, of the Union Therapy podcast, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.800 where she invites listeners into conversations around what it's like 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.040 to live fully in a world where we've become accustomed 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.960 to shut parts of ourselves off. The Union Therapy podcast 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:44.240 is a space that welcomes everybody in discomfort, asks tough questions, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.039 and hard truths, all while showing how to find joy 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.320 through it all. So here is my chat with Cat. 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.280 So you're going to tell us about the two insecure 0:05:56.320 --> 0:06:00.520 attachment styles, which is perfect for the Anxiety Bites podcast 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.960 because this does involve anxiety, right, yeah, all right, and 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.520 I will say the reason that this is really important 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.679 is because, um, if you have an insecure, anxious attachment style, 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.880 those people have the highest tendency to have things like O, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.760 C D anxiety disorders and just like generalized anxiety disorders. 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.279 So let's start from the top. We'll go from the 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.640 very beginning. So there was this guy and if you 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.240 have you learned about this, like John Bowlby and all 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.920 this uh not not that in depth, but yeah, take 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.240 us through the history because I certainly I am no expert. Okay, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.560 So there's this guy. His name is John Bowlby, and 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.200 he was a psychiatrist and after I think it was, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.719 um it was in the nineteen fifties, and he's working 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.000 in orphanages somewhere. I don't know where he was, but 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.039 he was in an orphanage. It was watching these kids, 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:57.560 and these small children get all their needs met like uh, food, shelter, water, 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.640 all of that, but they weren't um thriving and they 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.960 are actually like the opposite was happening. There is a 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:06.760 lot of stuff that was like didn't make sense to 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:11.640 him of why these these children um uh becoming ill 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:16.240 and all different ways. So he developed this theory attachment theory, 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.720 and basically it said there is another part of survival 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.280 that we're missing, and it's our attachment and basically said 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.160 that our attachment system is just as important as any 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.320 other system in our bodies, like our digestive system or 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.000 something like that. Like without attachment and connection, we will 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.840 not be able to thrive as humans prize of species. 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.120 And if you think about like back in the day, um, 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.240 like back back back in the day, like even like 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.600 caveman times, it's like people that were in a pack 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.679 were more likely to survive than somebody who was living 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:55.480 alone on an island. Right, And so from the our 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.240 earliest beginnings, we've been taught that like to thrive, we 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.160 need to be acted to somebody or something in some way. 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.160 So he developed that theory and then later this woman 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.160 named Mary Ainsworth did this study called um the Strength Situation, 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.720 and it is probably the most important part of attachment research. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.640 Did you say the strength situation? Strange situation? Yeah, oh, 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.080 strange situation. Okay, So I won't go into all of that, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.160 but basically it was an experiment where she had like 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.720 a primary caregiver, a mom, and then a small child, 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.760 and what they would do is the mom would leave 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.600 and then come back, and based on the child's response 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.679 to her leaving and coming back, they developed the different 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.600 attachment styles for early childhood. Which you had secure, which 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.160 secure is fifty percent of people in the world, so 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.840 and that's an adult to like, fifty of us are secure. Also, 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.560 you can have an earned a secure attachment. So let's 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.400 say we had an insecure attachment early on or we 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.040 developed it later in life. That can change so we 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.600 don't have to worry and fret and think that we're 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.880 gonna stuck here forever. So you had had UM secure, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.600 and then you had three insecure types. One is disorganized 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.079 and that one of there's not so much research on. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.840 Most likely it's not you. It's like two people, and 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.760 so we won't really talk about that today. UM. And 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:24.840 then you had UM anxious, ambivalent, and anxious dismissive. So 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.880 so those are the early ones. Then we moved to 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.360 adult attachment, and we have the disorganized, which is fearful, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.280 avoidant and adult. Then you have secure. Then you have 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.120 UM an adult anxious and adult avoidance. And then you 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.600 also might hear those being called the anxious one being 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.319 preoccupied in the avoidant one being called dismissive, an adult 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.760 attachment in the adult attachment of words. It's a lot, yeah, 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:52.840 but it's interesting. It's good to know because for anyone 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.200 just kind of googling out there, um, you might see 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.160 things and say, oh, that's me, you know, and you 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:00.640 just have to know a little bit more about it 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.720 before you self diagnosed, because you might you might be 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.839 leading yourself down the wrong path and stressing yourself out. Yes, no, really, 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.640 because I think that people this stuff is so interesting 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.760 and it's so helpful, and so people are like, oh, 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:13.880 I want more of it. I want more of what. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.920 I want more of it. But if you just google this, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.560 it's like you get inundated with all this information and 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:20.559 you don't know how to organize it, and then it 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.640 all starts to send the same and then you're like, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:24.680 I am never going to get out of this hole 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:26.400 that I'm in. I've been looking on the internet for 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.319 seven hours. Like it's a lot. So I think that 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.520 what you're saying is important is sometimes you just need 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.720 to take a back seat and maybe like go to 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.760 the person who knows it, the professional, and not try 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.960 to just google search all of your issues, but it's hard. Yeah, 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.040 I found for me when I you know, I mean 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.800 it took me. I'm I'm forty seven, and I didn't 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:46.920 find out about attachment styles until I was in my 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:52.200 early forties. It really would have been helpful earlier to understand, um, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.680 so many things about how I was in relationships that 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.600 you know, I'm not gonna say wasn't my fault, but like, 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.679 wasn't my fault but something I could change or something 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.120 I could look into at least, or just when I 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.760 know I'm up against a dead end here with someone 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.559 else in their attachment style that you know, we're not 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.240 going to change it. And then once I started getting 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.679 a lot of work done on myself just as an individual, 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.520 I can now say that I'm pretty that I'm securely attached. 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.760 My a very short lived relationship I had a little 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.400 while ago was just didn't work out. But it was like, 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:31.880 because I was so securely attached that I too, because 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.720 I feel like I've moved into secure attachment, um, which 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.080 I look at as a relationship with myself, if that 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.960 makes sense, that what wasn't going to work out about 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.960 this relationship was fine with me. It didn't make me go. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.559 But this person is perfect except for the big, glaring 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.640 things that aren't perfect. You know. Anyway, I was fine 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.720 with it. It hurt in a very normal way for 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.360 it to end, because I was like, oh, that was fun, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.120 Like that could have been fun. It's it's all was 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.720 okay to mourn. You know, we're human, We're gonna mourn. 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.600 Oh that would have been fun. Imagine if this kept going. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.520 But it was and it was like, uh, here I go, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.640 returning back to the sea, you know. And it was 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.720 like kind of like mildly painful just for a little bit, 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:22.280 but definitely not the um deep despairs to God, the despair, 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.200 the let me just I don't care if the world ends. 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.160 I'm so depressed over this person that I you know, again, 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.760 I'm not talking about major relationships that ended, like smaller 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.120 ones that you know. I was getting triggered by this 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.720 different attachment style thing but didn't know it. It's just 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.760 the depths of despair when these relationships end, and you 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.559 can get misdiagnosed a love at it to get misdiagnosed 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.400 a codependent, and it's like all of that is great 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.760 to look into. I think we should read everything we 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.080 can about everything. Um, there's always helpful stuff everywhere, but 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.679 again it didn't click for me, and I didn't feel 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.439 like I have something to learn and oh my god, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.760 good until I read even the slightest bit about attachment styles. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.319 So it is helpful, but then you have to kind 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.720 of take it to your therapist and say, you know, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.319 help me unpack this and all that. So I'm sorry 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.840 to interrupt. I had to go on my personal monologue. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.280 But that's, you know, been my experience so far. That's 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.000 so good because I will say, as a clinician who 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.880 literally uses attachment theory as a basis of everything that 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.920 I do, I have to take sometimes sometimes and be like, okay, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.760 what is this Because what we want to do is 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.760 we want to find a solution to a problem. So 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.280 if I can just diagnose you with codependency, it's like boom, 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.640 we're done. We're good. But I have to wait what 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:37.280 else is going on? But there are a couple of 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.640 things that you said and that that were so important. 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.800 One thing about over diagnosing love addiction and codependency. The 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.240 other thing when you were talking um about being in 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.600 these relationships and being like, well, I'm not trying to 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.640 change them, I'm not trying to do this, You're not. 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.720 What you're really doing is you're trying to change the 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.120 the the mental model you have of yourself. Because the 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:03.800 question that we're asking ourselves, the question that we're asking ourselves, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.960 am I worthy of love? Am I worthy of attention? 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.120 And my eye worthy? So that's what we're trying to 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.000 figure out. So when we're with these people who are 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.840 giving us these like little red flags or whatever is happening, 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.120 it's not that we're trying to change them and make 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.000 them a better person and heal them that we're always 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.040 trying to be these fixers and have this like savior complex. 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.160 Is that we're trying to prove that we are worthy 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.520 of love. So if we can stay in this relationship 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.760 and make this person who's maybe they're avoidant or maybe 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.000 they have all okay, then I can prove to myself 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.440 that I am worthy of love. And that goes back 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.320 to that earliest example with talking about the um emotionally 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.600 avoidant dad. So if I can then be with this person, 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.320 I'm not trying to change this person and and make 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.920 them this like um like dooey gouey love e emotional 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.480 person that they're not. I'm just trying to prove that 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.560 I'm worthy of love and that this person will stick around. Yeah, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.360 and I've done that. And it was so funny because 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.840 I remember my therapist did say something like that. She 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.080 didn't explicitly say and this. You know, sometimes I need 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.400 facts and things to read. So she had said that's 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.200 an attachment style thing, I would have taken it more seriously. Sometimes, 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.200 you know how it can be when you're a patient 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:19.520 and you your therapists something, and every once in a 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.240 while you kind of like, my brain doesn't assume she's 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.480 talking from a clinical standpoint because it's such a personal 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.560 relationship that every once in a while I can react 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.360 as though it's a friend or parent telling me something, 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.480 and I can get a little defiant and I can 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.640 be like, hmm, I don't relate to that. You know, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:37.800 I love myself. I don't know what you're talking about. 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:39.440 I'm a comedian. I go on stage and I don't 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.040 even care if people don't laugh. I love myself. I 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.040 travel alone and I do. I mean, I think I 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.440 have a really healthy self worth in a lot of ways. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.760 But that's why it didn't make sense to me that 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:54.280 in this one area when somebody was avoidant, you know, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:55.880 of course they don't always and then we're not talking 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.400 about narcissism, love bombing, we're not talking about that, but 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.320 when someone is really into it at first, and for me, 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.720 that's always a red flag. Now it is didn't used 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.600 to be. When they're really into it at first, I 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:10.120 can usually clock like now I could clock it like, okay, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.640 give this three weeks and you'll start being avoided and 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.120 I'll say, hey, you're just it's not that I want 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:16.800 to be around you every second, but you're just acting 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.480 differently than you first did. So I'm wondering, like, is 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.720 this your natural kind of progression um and it's all good? 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.040 Or is this going to keep going and going and 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:28.920 going and going less and less and less and less. 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.680 I'm not asking for a lot of attention. I'm literally 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.040 just asking, like, has anything changedho We talk about it, 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.120 and I don't realize that I'm not saying that to 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.240 someone that can handle that question. So all they hear 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:44.240 is I need you, I need And it's like I'm 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.560 literally just saying, so you used to want to hang 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.160 out every day, Now you want to hang out twice 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.920 a week, and in public and that's totally cool, like 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.000 I would I would love that too. I just let 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.200 myself go the first few weeks because it was fun. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.280 But I have a life, and so do you. This 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.800 is great. I'm just making sure are are we both 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.600 on the same page or was that? Has something changed? 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.120 And I literally had that once with someone and they 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.040 were like, oh my god, you're so needy. Oh my gosh, 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.879 you get away from me. That's what they do. And 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:12.560 I was like, oh my god, I'm not needy. And 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.280 then I would tell my therapist I'm not needy and 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:15.960 she'd be like, well, let's look into that, and I'm like, no, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.560 don't do the thing where I say I'm not in 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.399 the middle like something, and I couldn't figure out what 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:22.600 was going on, and it was like then she'd be like, oh, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.720 well they're you know, you're pursuing because they're running, and 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.879 I would be like that's so basic, Like I'm not 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.320 like that. But I didn't understand that it was smart 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.199 and deep and a real thing called attachment styles, and 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.800 that that helps me, Like if I can feel like, oh, 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.080 I'm just a human who's caught in a clinical thing, 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.680 oh amazing. You know, if you're the example you gave 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.479 is like a little girl with her dad. But this 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.760 doesn't have to be gendered in that sense, right, So 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.639 like if you're a woman dating women, it's not like 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.440 your mom did something. It can be your dad, your mom, 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.920 just whoever the caregiver is, right, this is always the 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.280 genderless thing. Well, so your early attachment is based off 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:01.840 of your prime or a caregiver birth. That could be 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.240 a mom, it could be a dad, It could be 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.800 a grandmother, it could be a nanny, it could be 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.760 whoever you're you're gonna you're gonna be create your attachments 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.159 based off of the person that's in the closest proximity 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.600 to you. And then as you get older and you 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.680 look at your attachment figures, it's just whoever's around. So 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.320 it's more likely, based on off of research that men 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.639 are going to lean more towards avoidance and women are 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.280 going to lean more towards anxious in the insecure stuff. Interesting, 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.920 So um, and that can be whether men are dating 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:32.760 men and women are dating women and women are dating 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.320 men and interesting, but if you think about if you 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.880 think about that like to avoid and that's to say 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.000 that like a woman, a woman can be avoidant and 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.520 a man can be anxious. That's just the general um. 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.040 But when you have to avoid, you're not going to 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.280 usually find to avoid it people dating each other because 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.439 they won't even just like the cosmic well there, it 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.720 weren't going to be very sure. Yeah, because if you 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.720 think about it, your example was perfect. When you were 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.439 talking somebody who has an adult avoidant attachment in the 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.560 beginning of the relationship, it can look very love bombing, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.600 like it can look very much like all the attentions 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.400 on you. They always want to be around you. You're 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.800 sitting there being like, wow, this is pretty awesome. Even 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.359 if you're secure, you might miss the red flags. You're like, 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.080 this is great. This it feels good right, it feels 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.679 really it feels available and not inappropriate, and it sounds 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.719 just like every other love story you hear where it's 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:27.440 like we knew right away and we spent the whole 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:32.800 week together, you know. So what's really happening right there 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:37.080 is that an avoidant person they have been taught um 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.800 to kind of like shut off their feelings and their needs. 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.199 So I think of it as like the example I 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.040 always give us, Like imagine somebody in like footy pajamas. 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:48.800 It's like from their toes all the way up, it's 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.119 like zipped up. Those are their emotions and the needs 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.879 because they were taught very early or throughout other relationships 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.920 in their life. If I have feelings, feelings, then signify 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.320 a need. If I have feelings, then I'm gonna have 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.919 a need. And every time I have a need, my 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:08.040 needs aren't met. So I'm gonna just go backwards. Don't 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.159 want to have needs, so I don't want to have feelings. 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.840 So they just cut themselves off, and they do that 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.520 in a million different ways. One of the ways is 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.960 preoccupation towards other people. So I'm going to give what 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.280 I'm going to give you all the attention, all the attention, 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.119 all the attention, all the attention, so we don't have 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.000 to focus on me. I don't have needs. But then 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.280 when the relationship starts to like actually develop, and there 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:36.000 is some expectation, right, So they've given this view of 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.440 their relationship that they're always going to be there. Well, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.080 then all of a sudden, it's expected that I'm gonna 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.960 be there. Oh, I can't do that. They make it 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.320 look like you you're so needy and gross. Get away 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:50.760 from me. But really their attachment system is turned on 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.879 and they can't handle that because if then they start 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.400 to need somebody or there is an expectation they're gonna 0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:59.800 let that person down, they can't handle it, so then 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.440 they push you away. And a lot of times they'll 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.960 do that through like self soothing behavior. So if you 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.440