Speaker 1: This is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. I
Speaker 1: am your host, Jen Kirkman. Well, another Valentine's Day has
Speaker 1: come and gone. Did that affect you in any way?
Speaker 1: I'm being a little silly about talking about Valentine's date
Speaker 1: last week and then this week? But hey, I figured,
Speaker 1: you know what, let's come modify it and talk about
Speaker 1: love is. I don't even think I used the word
Speaker 1: to modify correctly. There, that's okay, hang with me. So
Speaker 1: if though unrelated to any Hallmark holiday or not, if
Speaker 1: you are wondering why do I have such a bad picker.
Speaker 1: If you are wondering why do I feel so devastated
Speaker 1: after a breakup when I wasn't even with the person
Speaker 1: that long, I can definitely list a million issues I
Speaker 1: had with them that I wish could have changed. What
Speaker 1: is happening? Why do I tend to meet the craziest
Speaker 1: people and then I see other people and it just
Speaker 1: seems to go so easy for them. So I talked
Speaker 1: to therapist Cat Defata about all of this today. She
Speaker 1: loves talking about attachment styles, which is the answer to
Speaker 1: all your problems, or at least understanding them is um
Speaker 1: at the beginning of your journey in knowing how to
Speaker 1: work on some things that might change the way you
Speaker 1: show up for or don't show up for, not just
Speaker 1: romantic relationships, but all relationships and even relationship to self.
Speaker 1: But we were talking, you know, a little bit before
Speaker 1: the microphone was recording, about that TV show, The Millionaire Matchmaker,
Speaker 1: and uh, the woman on it would always say to
Speaker 1: her clients, your pickers off, your pickers off, you know,
Speaker 1: you like the thing that makes you pick people. And
Speaker 1: I find that so incredibly frustrating because I think, what
Speaker 1: the millionaire well, what I know the Millionaire Matchmaker is
Speaker 1: getting wrong? And I know it's just a cute expression, right,
Speaker 1: It's a it's a way of her saying, this is
Speaker 1: your fault. But like, you're not inherently bad, and yes
Speaker 1: you're worthy of love, but you're making some mistakes in
Speaker 1: your choices. But it's not about the first choice you make.
Speaker 1: It's not about oh my god. People with a good
Speaker 1: picker say yes to someone who asks them out, and
Speaker 1: they inherently know that that person would make a great partner,
Speaker 1: and they say no to all the troubled people. Not really,
Speaker 1: It's less about the initial moment of picking you know,
Speaker 1: someone to go on a date with or have a
Speaker 1: crush on. But what do you do when it's not
Speaker 1: meeting your needs? Even if you know that within a
Speaker 1: couple of days, even if you see massive red flags
Speaker 1: within a few days, do you stay and think, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong or maybe it'll get better. Do you
Speaker 1: ignore the feeling in your stomach that says this just
Speaker 1: isn't it. That is where making choices comes in. And
Speaker 1: that's if you want to use the expression you're pickers off.
Speaker 1: You're picking to stay other people that you think are
Speaker 1: quote normal, they would just piece out at that point
Speaker 1: and you might not even ever hear about these stories. Right.
Speaker 1: It's like going into a clothing store and you try
Speaker 1: on a million things, and if you end up buying
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff that, well, it doesn't fit now,
Speaker 1: but after next week, you know, I'm going to have
Speaker 1: that root canal and then i won't be able to
Speaker 1: eat for a few days, and so I'll probably lose
Speaker 1: a lot of water weight. So these pants will fit
Speaker 1: perfectly in about a week. Oh well, you know this
Speaker 1: doesn't quite look good on me, But I'll figure it
Speaker 1: out if you just think of it that way. In
Speaker 1: terms of shopping, it's like, are you doing that in relationships? Well,
Speaker 1: you know nobody's perfect, so and it's like, well, no
Speaker 1: one's looking for perfection, but does it fit you? And
Speaker 1: you know you might see someone who doesn't have the
Speaker 1: same Well, I'm gonna well, I'm gonna stop with this
Speaker 1: stupid clothing analogy. I think you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I was going to continue. I just saved you from
Speaker 1: hearing me go. Well, and then the person who tries
Speaker 1: on something, I mean, I can't believe I thought I
Speaker 1: should do that. Anyway, you don't need to hear me
Speaker 1: babbling anymore. Let's just get to this episode. But I
Speaker 1: met um Cat de Fata when I was on her podcast,
Speaker 1: which is also here on the i Heart Radio network.
Speaker 1: I Heart podcasts her therapy, her therapy. Her podcast is
Speaker 1: called You Need Therapy. And I was on her show
Speaker 1: a few months ago, and she is just such a delight,
Speaker 1: and she's so smart and she's so excited to talk
Speaker 1: about therapy and psychology that that's my favorite kind of
Speaker 1: guests is just I mean, actually, no one on this
Speaker 1: show has not been excited, so I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, but let's get right into it now,
Speaker 1: actually right now. Um On her own podcast, You Need
Speaker 1: Therapy podcast dot com, Cat Defata is doing a whole
Speaker 1: series really in depth on attachment styles. So definitely listen
Speaker 1: to this episode first, find out more about it, and
Speaker 1: we do talk about our personal experiences, and then head
Speaker 1: on over to her podcast and really dive deep. But um, so,
Speaker 1: Catherine de Fatah is a licensed therapist. She has her
Speaker 1: master's degree. She's the founder of Three Chords Therapy, which
Speaker 1: is a private group therapy practice in Nashville, Tennessee. She's
Speaker 1: the host, as I mentioned, of the Union Therapy podcast,
Speaker 1: where she invites listeners into conversations around what it's like
Speaker 1: to live fully in a world where we've become accustomed
Speaker 1: to shut parts of ourselves off. The Union Therapy podcast
Speaker 1: is a space that welcomes everybody in discomfort, asks tough questions,
Speaker 1: and hard truths, all while showing how to find joy
Speaker 1: through it all. So here is my chat with Cat.
Speaker 1: So you're going to tell us about the two insecure
Speaker 1: attachment styles, which is perfect for the Anxiety Bites podcast
Speaker 1: because this does involve anxiety, right, yeah, all right, and
Speaker 1: I will say the reason that this is really important
Speaker 1: is because, um, if you have an insecure, anxious attachment style,
Speaker 1: those people have the highest tendency to have things like O,
Speaker 1: C D anxiety disorders and just like generalized anxiety disorders.
Speaker 1: So let's start from the top. We'll go from the
Speaker 1: very beginning. So there was this guy and if you
Speaker 1: have you learned about this, like John Bowlby and all
Speaker 1: this uh not not that in depth, but yeah, take
Speaker 1: us through the history because I certainly I am no expert. Okay,
Speaker 1: So there's this guy. His name is John Bowlby, and
Speaker 1: he was a psychiatrist and after I think it was,
Speaker 1: um it was in the nineteen fifties, and he's working
Speaker 1: in orphanages somewhere. I don't know where he was, but
Speaker 1: he was in an orphanage. It was watching these kids,
Speaker 1: and these small children get all their needs met like uh, food, shelter, water,
Speaker 1: all of that, but they weren't um thriving and they
Speaker 1: are actually like the opposite was happening. There is a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that was like didn't make sense to
Speaker 1: him of why these these children um uh becoming ill
Speaker 1: and all different ways. So he developed this theory attachment theory,
Speaker 1: and basically it said there is another part of survival
Speaker 1: that we're missing, and it's our attachment and basically said
Speaker 1: that our attachment system is just as important as any
Speaker 1: other system in our bodies, like our digestive system or
Speaker 1: something like that. Like without attachment and connection, we will
Speaker 1: not be able to thrive as humans prize of species.
Speaker 1: And if you think about like back in the day, um,
Speaker 1: like back back back in the day, like even like
Speaker 1: caveman times, it's like people that were in a pack
Speaker 1: were more likely to survive than somebody who was living
Speaker 1: alone on an island. Right, And so from the our
Speaker 1: earliest beginnings, we've been taught that like to thrive, we
Speaker 1: need to be acted to somebody or something in some way.
Speaker 1: So he developed that theory and then later this woman
Speaker 1: named Mary Ainsworth did this study called um the Strength Situation,
Speaker 1: and it is probably the most important part of attachment research.
Speaker 1: Did you say the strength situation? Strange situation? Yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: strange situation. Okay, So I won't go into all of that,
Speaker 1: but basically it was an experiment where she had like
Speaker 1: a primary caregiver, a mom, and then a small child,
Speaker 1: and what they would do is the mom would leave
Speaker 1: and then come back, and based on the child's response
Speaker 1: to her leaving and coming back, they developed the different
Speaker 1: attachment styles for early childhood. Which you had secure, which
Speaker 1: secure is fifty percent of people in the world, so
Speaker 1: and that's an adult to like, fifty of us are secure. Also,
Speaker 1: you can have an earned a secure attachment. So let's
Speaker 1: say we had an insecure attachment early on or we
Speaker 1: developed it later in life. That can change so we
Speaker 1: don't have to worry and fret and think that we're
Speaker 1: gonna stuck here forever. So you had had UM secure,
Speaker 1: and then you had three insecure types. One is disorganized
Speaker 1: and that one of there's not so much research on.
Speaker 1: Most likely it's not you. It's like two people, and
Speaker 1: so we won't really talk about that today. UM. And
Speaker 1: then you had UM anxious, ambivalent, and anxious dismissive. So
Speaker 1: so those are the early ones. Then we moved to
Speaker 1: adult attachment, and we have the disorganized, which is fearful,
Speaker 1: avoidant and adult. Then you have secure. Then you have
Speaker 1: UM an adult anxious and adult avoidance. And then you
Speaker 1: also might hear those being called the anxious one being
Speaker 1: preoccupied in the avoidant one being called dismissive, an adult
Speaker 1: attachment in the adult attachment of words. It's a lot, yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's interesting. It's good to know because for anyone
Speaker 1: just kind of googling out there, um, you might see
Speaker 1: things and say, oh, that's me, you know, and you
Speaker 1: just have to know a little bit more about it
Speaker 1: before you self diagnosed, because you might you might be
Speaker 1: leading yourself down the wrong path and stressing yourself out. Yes, no, really,
Speaker 1: because I think that people this stuff is so interesting
Speaker 1: and it's so helpful, and so people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: I want more of it. I want more of what.
Speaker 1: I want more of it. But if you just google this,
Speaker 1: it's like you get inundated with all this information and
Speaker 1: you don't know how to organize it, and then it
Speaker 1: all starts to send the same and then you're like,
Speaker 1: I am never going to get out of this hole
Speaker 1: that I'm in. I've been looking on the internet for
Speaker 1: seven hours. Like it's a lot. So I think that
Speaker 1: what you're saying is important is sometimes you just need
Speaker 1: to take a back seat and maybe like go to
Speaker 1: the person who knows it, the professional, and not try
Speaker 1: to just google search all of your issues, but it's hard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I found for me when I you know, I mean
Speaker 1: it took me. I'm I'm forty seven, and I didn't
Speaker 1: find out about attachment styles until I was in my
Speaker 1: early forties. It really would have been helpful earlier to understand, um,
Speaker 1: so many things about how I was in relationships that
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not gonna say wasn't my fault, but like,
Speaker 1: wasn't my fault but something I could change or something
Speaker 1: I could look into at least, or just when I
Speaker 1: know I'm up against a dead end here with someone
Speaker 1: else in their attachment style that you know, we're not
Speaker 1: going to change it. And then once I started getting
Speaker 1: a lot of work done on myself just as an individual,
Speaker 1: I can now say that I'm pretty that I'm securely attached.
Speaker 1: My a very short lived relationship I had a little
Speaker 1: while ago was just didn't work out. But it was like,
Speaker 1: because I was so securely attached that I too, because
Speaker 1: I feel like I've moved into secure attachment, um, which
Speaker 1: I look at as a relationship with myself, if that
Speaker 1: makes sense, that what wasn't going to work out about
Speaker 1: this relationship was fine with me. It didn't make me go.
Speaker 1: But this person is perfect except for the big, glaring
Speaker 1: things that aren't perfect. You know. Anyway, I was fine
Speaker 1: with it. It hurt in a very normal way for
Speaker 1: it to end, because I was like, oh, that was fun,
Speaker 1: Like that could have been fun. It's it's all was
Speaker 1: okay to mourn. You know, we're human, We're gonna mourn.
Speaker 1: Oh that would have been fun. Imagine if this kept going.
Speaker 1: But it was and it was like, uh, here I go,
Speaker 1: returning back to the sea, you know. And it was
Speaker 1: like kind of like mildly painful just for a little bit,
Speaker 1: but definitely not the um deep despairs to God, the despair,
Speaker 1: the let me just I don't care if the world ends.
Speaker 1: I'm so depressed over this person that I you know, again,
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about major relationships that ended, like smaller
Speaker 1: ones that you know. I was getting triggered by this
Speaker 1: different attachment style thing but didn't know it. It's just
Speaker 1: the depths of despair when these relationships end, and you
Speaker 1: can get misdiagnosed a love at it to get misdiagnosed
Speaker 1: a codependent, and it's like all of that is great
Speaker 1: to look into. I think we should read everything we
Speaker 1: can about everything. Um, there's always helpful stuff everywhere, but
Speaker 1: again it didn't click for me, and I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like I have something to learn and oh my god,
Speaker 1: good until I read even the slightest bit about attachment styles.
Speaker 1: So it is helpful, but then you have to kind
Speaker 1: of take it to your therapist and say, you know,
Speaker 1: help me unpack this and all that. So I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to interrupt. I had to go on my personal monologue.
Speaker 1: But that's, you know, been my experience so far. That's
Speaker 1: so good because I will say, as a clinician who
Speaker 1: literally uses attachment theory as a basis of everything that
Speaker 1: I do, I have to take sometimes sometimes and be like, okay,
Speaker 1: what is this Because what we want to do is
Speaker 1: we want to find a solution to a problem. So
Speaker 1: if I can just diagnose you with codependency, it's like boom,
Speaker 1: we're done. We're good. But I have to wait what
Speaker 1: else is going on? But there are a couple of
Speaker 1: things that you said and that that were so important.
Speaker 1: One thing about over diagnosing love addiction and codependency. The
Speaker 1: other thing when you were talking um about being in
Speaker 1: these relationships and being like, well, I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: change them, I'm not trying to do this, You're not.
Speaker 1: What you're really doing is you're trying to change the
Speaker 1: the the mental model you have of yourself. Because the
Speaker 1: question that we're asking ourselves, the question that we're asking ourselves,
Speaker 1: am I worthy of love? Am I worthy of attention?
Speaker 1: And my eye worthy? So that's what we're trying to
Speaker 1: figure out. So when we're with these people who are
Speaker 1: giving us these like little red flags or whatever is happening,
Speaker 1: it's not that we're trying to change them and make
Speaker 1: them a better person and heal them that we're always
Speaker 1: trying to be these fixers and have this like savior complex.
Speaker 1: Is that we're trying to prove that we are worthy
Speaker 1: of love. So if we can stay in this relationship
Speaker 1: and make this person who's maybe they're avoidant or maybe
Speaker 1: they have all okay, then I can prove to myself
Speaker 1: that I am worthy of love. And that goes back
Speaker 1: to that earliest example with talking about the um emotionally
Speaker 1: avoidant dad. So if I can then be with this person,
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to change this person and and make
Speaker 1: them this like um like dooey gouey love e emotional
Speaker 1: person that they're not. I'm just trying to prove that
Speaker 1: I'm worthy of love and that this person will stick around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I've done that. And it was so funny because
Speaker 1: I remember my therapist did say something like that. She
Speaker 1: didn't explicitly say and this. You know, sometimes I need
Speaker 1: facts and things to read. So she had said that's
Speaker 1: an attachment style thing, I would have taken it more seriously. Sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know how it can be when you're a patient
Speaker 1: and you your therapists something, and every once in a
Speaker 1: while you kind of like, my brain doesn't assume she's
Speaker 1: talking from a clinical standpoint because it's such a personal
Speaker 1: relationship that every once in a while I can react
Speaker 1: as though it's a friend or parent telling me something,
Speaker 1: and I can get a little defiant and I can
Speaker 1: be like, hmm, I don't relate to that. You know,
Speaker 1: I love myself. I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I'm a comedian. I go on stage and I don't
Speaker 1: even care if people don't laugh. I love myself. I
Speaker 1: travel alone and I do. I mean, I think I
Speaker 1: have a really healthy self worth in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: But that's why it didn't make sense to me that
Speaker 1: in this one area when somebody was avoidant, you know,
Speaker 1: of course they don't always and then we're not talking
Speaker 1: about narcissism, love bombing, we're not talking about that, but
Speaker 1: when someone is really into it at first, and for me,
Speaker 1: that's always a red flag. Now it is didn't used
Speaker 1: to be. When they're really into it at first, I
Speaker 1: can usually clock like now I could clock it like, okay,
Speaker 1: give this three weeks and you'll start being avoided and
Speaker 1: I'll say, hey, you're just it's not that I want
Speaker 1: to be around you every second, but you're just acting
Speaker 1: differently than you first did. So I'm wondering, like, is
Speaker 1: this your natural kind of progression um and it's all good?
Speaker 1: Or is this going to keep going and going and
Speaker 1: going and going less and less and less and less.
Speaker 1: I'm not asking for a lot of attention. I'm literally
Speaker 1: just asking, like, has anything changedho We talk about it,
Speaker 1: and I don't realize that I'm not saying that to
Speaker 1: someone that can handle that question. So all they hear
Speaker 1: is I need you, I need And it's like I'm
Speaker 1: literally just saying, so you used to want to hang
Speaker 1: out every day, Now you want to hang out twice
Speaker 1: a week, and in public and that's totally cool, like
Speaker 1: I would I would love that too. I just let
Speaker 1: myself go the first few weeks because it was fun.
Speaker 1: But I have a life, and so do you. This
Speaker 1: is great. I'm just making sure are are we both
Speaker 1: on the same page or was that? Has something changed?
Speaker 1: And I literally had that once with someone and they
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, you're so needy. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: you get away from me. That's what they do. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I'm not needy. And
Speaker 1: then I would tell my therapist I'm not needy and
Speaker 1: she'd be like, well, let's look into that, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: don't do the thing where I say I'm not in
Speaker 1: the middle like something, and I couldn't figure out what
Speaker 1: was going on, and it was like then she'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: well they're you know, you're pursuing because they're running, and
Speaker 1: I would be like that's so basic, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: like that. But I didn't understand that it was smart
Speaker 1: and deep and a real thing called attachment styles, and
Speaker 1: that that helps me, Like if I can feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just a human who's caught in a clinical thing,
Speaker 1: oh amazing. You know, if you're the example you gave
Speaker 1: is like a little girl with her dad. But this
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be gendered in that sense, right, So
Speaker 1: like if you're a woman dating women, it's not like
Speaker 1: your mom did something. It can be your dad, your mom,
Speaker 1: just whoever the caregiver is, right, this is always the
Speaker 1: genderless thing. Well, so your early attachment is based off
Speaker 1: of your prime or a caregiver birth. That could be
Speaker 1: a mom, it could be a dad, It could be
Speaker 1: a grandmother, it could be a nanny, it could be
Speaker 1: whoever you're you're gonna you're gonna be create your attachments
Speaker 1: based off of the person that's in the closest proximity
Speaker 1: to you. And then as you get older and you
Speaker 1: look at your attachment figures, it's just whoever's around. So
Speaker 1: it's more likely, based on off of research that men
Speaker 1: are going to lean more towards avoidance and women are
Speaker 1: going to lean more towards anxious in the insecure stuff. Interesting,
Speaker 1: So um, and that can be whether men are dating
Speaker 1: men and women are dating women and women are dating
Speaker 1: men and interesting, but if you think about if you
Speaker 1: think about that like to avoid and that's to say
Speaker 1: that like a woman, a woman can be avoidant and
Speaker 1: a man can be anxious. That's just the general um.
Speaker 1: But when you have to avoid, you're not going to
Speaker 1: usually find to avoid it people dating each other because
Speaker 1: they won't even just like the cosmic well there, it
Speaker 1: weren't going to be very sure. Yeah, because if you
Speaker 1: think about it, your example was perfect. When you were
Speaker 1: talking somebody who has an adult avoidant attachment in the
Speaker 1: beginning of the relationship, it can look very love bombing,
Speaker 1: like it can look very much like all the attentions
Speaker 1: on you. They always want to be around you. You're
Speaker 1: sitting there being like, wow, this is pretty awesome. Even
Speaker 1: if you're secure, you might miss the red flags. You're like,
Speaker 1: this is great. This it feels good right, it feels
Speaker 1: really it feels available and not inappropriate, and it sounds
Speaker 1: just like every other love story you hear where it's
Speaker 1: like we knew right away and we spent the whole
Speaker 1: week together, you know. So what's really happening right there
Speaker 1: is that an avoidant person they have been taught um
Speaker 1: to kind of like shut off their feelings and their needs.
Speaker 1: So I think of it as like the example I
Speaker 1: always give us, Like imagine somebody in like footy pajamas.
Speaker 1: It's like from their toes all the way up, it's
Speaker 1: like zipped up. Those are their emotions and the needs
Speaker 1: because they were taught very early or throughout other relationships
Speaker 1: in their life. If I have feelings, feelings, then signify
Speaker 1: a need. If I have feelings, then I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: a need. And every time I have a need, my
Speaker 1: needs aren't met. So I'm gonna just go backwards. Don't
Speaker 1: want to have needs, so I don't want to have feelings.
Speaker 1: So they just cut themselves off, and they do that
Speaker 1: in a million different ways. One of the ways is
Speaker 1: preoccupation towards other people. So I'm going to give what
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you all the attention, all the attention,
Speaker 1: all the attention, all the attention, so we don't have
Speaker 1: to focus on me. I don't have needs. But then
Speaker 1: when the relationship starts to like actually develop, and there
Speaker 1: is some expectation, right, So they've given this view of
Speaker 1: their relationship that they're always going to be there. Well,
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, it's expected that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be there. Oh, I can't do that. They make it
Speaker 1: look like you you're so needy and gross. Get away
Speaker 1: from me. But really their attachment system is turned on
Speaker 1: and they can't handle that because if then they start
Speaker 1: to need somebody or there is an expectation they're gonna
Speaker 1: let that person down, they can't handle it, so then
Speaker 1: they push you away. And a lot of times they'll
Speaker 1: do that through like self soothing behavior. So if you
Speaker 1: find yourself in a relationship with somebody like this, they'll
Speaker 1: like work a lot, they'll overwork, or they'll video games,
Speaker 1: or they'll preoccupy themselves on like social media or something
Speaker 1: like that because they have to get away from the
Speaker 1: like interpersonal relationships. They're very independent, very much so. But
Speaker 1: the interesting thing is, which I love putting this out
Speaker 1: for people that are like new to all this, is
Speaker 1: people look at somebody who has an avoidant attachment as
Speaker 1: like better than somebody with an anxious attachment. Oh, isn't
Speaker 1: that interesting because we're taught that independence. So yes, And
Speaker 1: it's funny because it's not true independence at all. You know,
Speaker 1: independent people aren't afraid of other people glomming onto them
Speaker 1: like a like a ghost you like, no, And and
Speaker 1: you were talking about the codependency thing of like how
Speaker 1: that's been kind of demonized. But the thing is go
Speaker 1: back to the beginning of this conversation. We were literally created,
Speaker 1: literally created. We were born attached to another human being,
Speaker 1: like you had to cut yourself away from your mother
Speaker 1: when you were born. We were created to need people,
Speaker 1: and so we have to have people in our life.
Speaker 1: We have to have connection. We have to have that
Speaker 1: to thrive. So we are when we people call people
Speaker 1: codependent all the time. No, we're all codependent to a degree,
Speaker 1: and we need to be. We have to be. So
Speaker 1: somebody who's avoiding is like you codependency, get away from me. Gross,
Speaker 1: go away. I'm going to go over here and do
Speaker 1: my own thing and look like I'm like the top
Speaker 1: of the world. And people are going to then praise
Speaker 1: that all they're so independent. We'll be right back. It's
Speaker 1: so weird we praise people for being independent. And then
Speaker 1: the first thing you say to a single person at
Speaker 1: a party is have you met someone? And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like so many mixed messages. But okay,
Speaker 1: so let me ask you to define. Let's go into
Speaker 1: I mean, you tell me you're the you're the therapist,
Speaker 1: but I thought it might be go into however you
Speaker 1: want to. But in terms of like, let's say there's
Speaker 1: someone listening and they're single, and they're like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: just learning now that this pick er thing is kind
Speaker 1: of byes. Talk about the two anxious attachment styles and
Speaker 1: I don't know if you want to talk about the
Speaker 1: adult And I want to say this too, because when
Speaker 1: you said that, I was like, um, made me think
Speaker 1: of when people you're at a party, people like have
Speaker 1: you met somebody? And then you'll hear somebody say well,
Speaker 1: when you least expect it, you'll meet them. Just just
Speaker 1: stop terrible, yes, just stop, just stop wanting somebody. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: we if we cut that off, that is going to
Speaker 1: lead us less likely to find somebody. Keep it inside
Speaker 1: your soul that you want to be connected to somebody.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a great point too. Yeah, but also it's
Speaker 1: just like kind of rude and it's not hopeful. I
Speaker 1: was thinking that, like, like I I'm not because of
Speaker 1: my attachment styles and just how I'm wired, I don't
Speaker 1: relate to the generic I want to meet someone romantically.
Speaker 1: I always go when people say they're like lonely and
Speaker 1: pining for a relationship, I go with who to me,
Speaker 1: I have to have a person of mine, and I
Speaker 1: know that that's like not totally you know, like on
Speaker 1: the spectrum of healthy. But I have a billion friendships
Speaker 1: and I'm constantly connected to other people, like I am
Speaker 1: such a love bug in such a social creature. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I I do really well. Um
Speaker 1: and I don't mean on my own independent alone, but
Speaker 1: I just do really well without a partner right now. Um,
Speaker 1: And I have had times in my life where I'm
Speaker 1: I'm like so fulfilled and happy with like projects and
Speaker 1: friends and exploring and travel. And people will say that's
Speaker 1: great because you're in the when you least expect it
Speaker 1: part of your life, and I go, well, don't ruin
Speaker 1: this part where it's like the the only payoff for this, um,
Speaker 1: you know, quality time with self is that I meet
Speaker 1: someone at the end, then that was all worth it,
Speaker 1: Like because what if I never do then then you know,
Speaker 1: there's just no Yeah, it's it's a hard thing to
Speaker 1: keep in your head that we need connection, but it's
Speaker 1: also fine if not right, and it's not the point.
Speaker 1: But you're not you're connected. You you're talking about like, oh,
Speaker 1: the only connection is a romantic partner. Well that's not
Speaker 1: true because you're also what you just said is a
Speaker 1: beautiful picture of what it looks like to move from
Speaker 1: a somewhat anxious attachment to a secure attachment where I
Speaker 1: am now connected to other people. But I'm okay self
Speaker 1: soothing in myself because somebody who is um avoidant, they
Speaker 1: will over self soothed, so they're overdependent, and somebody who's
Speaker 1: anxious will under self sooth and the only way to
Speaker 1: soothe themselves is through one special person. What I used
Speaker 1: to be like, And again I thought it was normal
Speaker 1: because I don't know why would I not think this,
Speaker 1: But and also because when you're busy sometimes it really
Speaker 1: is just you have not a long time. And so
Speaker 1: in my relationships, it's like I work all day and
Speaker 1: then I'm doing comedy at night, and I don't have
Speaker 1: a million hours to to see a million friends. And
Speaker 1: so my partner became my primary sounding board for everything.
Speaker 1: And it was like, if you had asked me, I'd
Speaker 1: answer in almost a Larry David way, like what I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to go home, tell my partner every single thing
Speaker 1: that happened, every single anxiety I've had, and I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to call a friend and say the same thing to them,
Speaker 1: and then another friend. I didn't know that, you don't.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know. It was like dumping everything on
Speaker 1: a partner. I really didn't. And so I had someone
Speaker 1: point out to me once like you're so anxious, and
Speaker 1: I was like, what the hell are you talking about.
Speaker 1: I'm not anxious. I travel all the time. I used
Speaker 1: to have a fear flying. Now I don't. I really
Speaker 1: didn't realize, and I don't think he because he could
Speaker 1: only say you're so anxious, he couldn't expand on it.
Speaker 1: And I think what his soul and brain and subconscious
Speaker 1: was trying to say is you are putting everything onto me,
Speaker 1: even if it's not big and dramatic, but it would
Speaker 1: be little things throughout the day. Send a text, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, the mailman just sucked this up. It was
Speaker 1: like every minute there was contact, you know, and there
Speaker 1: was like and I honestly like, I didn't take into
Speaker 1: account what it feels like to be on the other
Speaker 1: end because I didn't think it was a big deal.
Speaker 1: If I send that text, you never have to write back.
Speaker 1: I don't care. I'm just unloading, you know. And so
Speaker 1: once I got out of that relationship, which was really,
Speaker 1: really painful to get out of. Um. It was not
Speaker 1: my choice. I the last few years have been basically
Speaker 1: pretty much single, and man, I've learned a lot over
Speaker 1: the last three years. I truly now have deep relationships
Speaker 1: with friends. It's like, every day in touch with at
Speaker 1: least twenty people, whether it's a quick text or so.
Speaker 1: But there's so much I love you, and there's just
Speaker 1: so much intimacy, and I spread it around, like my
Speaker 1: friendships weren't that deep before when I was in this
Speaker 1: past relationship. And so what I've gained is a life,
Speaker 1: you know, and now I can seamlessly see how someone
Speaker 1: could fit into that in a in a way. But
Speaker 1: I never are used to understand like shows like Sex
Speaker 1: in the City where they're like, my girlfriends are my
Speaker 1: soul mates. I was like, what, I literally didn't get that,
Speaker 1: you know, um, And so it's it's just interesting because
Speaker 1: it's like it's these little things that I feel like
Speaker 1: people don't articulate, where it's like I'm not a love
Speaker 1: that act, I'm not a whatever whatever. It's like I
Speaker 1: literally didn't know that you don't give everything to your
Speaker 1: partner because it was just wisdom. Nobody teaches that nobody
Speaker 1: teaches that is nothing to what my parents did. It's
Speaker 1: just you hear these common wisdoms that are like, your
Speaker 1: partners should be your best friend, they should be everything
Speaker 1: complete me. This might be a conversation for another day,
Speaker 1: but like what you're also speaking to is how we
Speaker 1: used to just think our attachment was based off of
Speaker 1: our parents or our primary caregivers. Now we're looking at
Speaker 1: how our attachment system is created off of our life experiences.
Speaker 1: So if I'm seeing all this content that's saying your
Speaker 1: partner should be your other half, your partner should complete you,
Speaker 1: like no way out, So then I'm taking that into
Speaker 1: my psyche and I'm like, Okay, then I'm going to
Speaker 1: be looking for the person that does these things. And
Speaker 1: if we look at media TV, the shows that even
Speaker 1: like I just went to Disney World with my niece,
Speaker 1: my two little nieces, and I'm looking at these like
Speaker 1: princesses and these fairy tales, and I think they're so
Speaker 1: cute and they're awesome and they're wonderful. But also I
Speaker 1: was taught how to have relationships through those movies of
Speaker 1: like your Prince Charming will come and fix you and
Speaker 1: sweep you off your feet and make everything better. So
Speaker 1: then you're going to be looking that's shaping how relationship
Speaker 1: should be. So if I'm not getting that, then there's
Speaker 1: a message in my head that's like, well, there's something
Speaker 1: wrong with me. Why am I not getting that? It's
Speaker 1: interesting you say that, because honestly, I did not know
Speaker 1: that we truly are shaped by media because it sounds
Speaker 1: so trite, almost like, oh, come on, how could we
Speaker 1: be that influenced? I mean, we're not stupid, but it's
Speaker 1: really good to hear that. I had no idea that
Speaker 1: that can inform our attachment styles as much as our caregivers.
Speaker 1: That's wild. And if you look at I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: for this, but a lot of stuff is changing, especially
Speaker 1: in like um, the younger generations TV and stories that
Speaker 1: are being exposed. UM. But if you look at that,
Speaker 1: the way that relationships were shown and displayed is very unrealistic.
Speaker 1: And if you are watching that, and here's another thing,
Speaker 1: somebody who has an avoidant attachment style is going to
Speaker 1: probably watch a lot of TV because as a self
Speaker 1: student in a way to like um, avoid and just
Speaker 1: dismiss life, I'm going to be sucked into that. So
Speaker 1: I'm taking all this information in, and then the information
Speaker 1: that I'm taking in is telling me this is what
Speaker 1: a relationship looks like, this is what a family looks like.
Speaker 1: If I'm not young, I don't know how to differentiate
Speaker 1: between this is not real and this is real. Wow.
Speaker 1: We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a
Speaker 1: quick message from our sponsors. All right, well, now take
Speaker 1: me through the two anxios styles. Okay, so we talked
Speaker 1: a lot about avoidance, So I'm gonna start with the anxious.
Speaker 1: So anxious, and there's a great way that I easily
Speaker 1: differentiate between the two. So somebody who has an anxious attachment,
Speaker 1: so they are somebody who has been like shown hope
Speaker 1: and given hope and that it's been taken away. So
Speaker 1: they've seen people show up, they've seen relationships UM work out,
Speaker 1: they've seen if we go back to early UM experiences,
Speaker 1: their parents are there. Sometimes It's like imagine you play soccer,
Speaker 1: like sometimes your parents come to your games and sometimes
Speaker 1: they don't. So like there's an expectation that I might
Speaker 1: be there. So I have hope and then it's been
Speaker 1: taken away. I have hope and it's been taken away.
Speaker 1: So then when I have the thing I want the relationship,
Speaker 1: I become this like stage five clinger because I know
Speaker 1: what's gonna leave. I don't know when, so I want
Speaker 1: to hold onto as tight as I can right now,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do everything I can to keep it here.
Speaker 1: They kind of have a sixth sense, and this is like,
Speaker 1: none of these things are bad. I just want to
Speaker 1: say that too. It doesn't. I'm not like demonizing people
Speaker 1: for having an anxious attachment. I grew up with a
Speaker 1: very anxious attachment. It's just their survival strategies really, so
Speaker 1: they kind of developed the sixth sense where they're more
Speaker 1: likely to be able to sense like danger or something
Speaker 1: off there. Like gut reactions are like really pretty good. However,
Speaker 1: they they they kind of move too fast, so they
Speaker 1: assume too quickly. They don't have this like moment where
Speaker 1: they can breathe and just like wait to see what happens.
Speaker 1: They get that gut reaction, they have to like move
Speaker 1: on it right then and there. So do you mean
Speaker 1: that it could be a gut reaction if I like you?
Speaker 1: So they could get attached too quickly to or no, Well, yes,
Speaker 1: but that's kind of for a different reason I'm saying,
Speaker 1: I'm the gut reaction. I'm kind of referring to as
Speaker 1: like that something's wrong. Something's wrong, okay, so instead of
Speaker 1: like just sitting with it, they can't hang They know
Speaker 1: their feelings, they got to read. Yes, they have to
Speaker 1: fix it. They have no ability to self regulate. An
Speaker 1: attachment is based off of emotional regulation, and the emotion
Speaker 1: that we're focused on the most is fear. So they
Speaker 1: sense fear and they cannot sit with it. So imagine
Speaker 1: you're texting the person you're dating, and you guys are
Speaker 1: having a conversation back and forth. It's great. Or maybe
Speaker 1: this is somebody early and very early in dating too,
Speaker 1: so going back and forth, the conversation is great, whatever.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden you see like the dot dot
Speaker 1: dot the bubbles and then they go away and then
Speaker 1: he never responds, Yeah, something's wrong. Automatically, I'm making up
Speaker 1: a story of like, oh, was what I said not funny?
Speaker 1: Did they not like it? Did I hurt their feelings?
Speaker 1: Did they said they don't like the anymore? Like there's
Speaker 1: a hundred stories when maybe the reality is he dropped
Speaker 1: his phone in the sink, or he put his phone
Speaker 1: down to go for a run, or he is in
Speaker 1: a meeting and his boss walked into the room or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no like reality checking. It's this narrative that something
Speaker 1: is wrong and now I have to fix it. So
Speaker 1: then you end up sending like fifteen text messages to
Speaker 1: this person, you know, Yeah, when really and and in
Speaker 1: that moment, I mean what you're saying. You know, we've
Speaker 1: seen it on TV million times? Oh my god? Do
Speaker 1: they not like me? Was that not funny? I mean,
Speaker 1: any human is capable of thinking that. But the difference
Speaker 1: is is I can think that and then put my
Speaker 1: phone down, make a cup of coffee, and go, oh god,
Speaker 1: I'm so nerressed. I hope I didn't say anything else. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the the person with with that attachment style who's
Speaker 1: not emotionally regulated, they can't. They have to fix it.
Speaker 1: They get they have to get soothed by that person
Speaker 1: that made them anxious. Nobody else. They can't go make
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee and sit there and just like
Speaker 1: drink it and feel the warmth and like be in
Speaker 1: the moment. They have to go fix what they in
Speaker 1: quotes messed up. However, I will say this for anybody
Speaker 1: who does relate to that. What I always tell clients
Speaker 1: is you're saying one thing like that, like maybe you
Speaker 1: did say a joke and think goes funny or whatever.
Speaker 1: If somebody likes you and they have a secure attachment,
Speaker 1: you're saying one joke that they don't think it's funny.
Speaker 1: Isn't going to be like, oh, never mind, I don't
Speaker 1: like them anymore. They're just gonna be like, oh, that
Speaker 1: was a weird joke. It's so interesting though, because on
Speaker 1: the receiving end of that, if that other person isn't
Speaker 1: secure and they're freaked out by all the texting, it's
Speaker 1: so funny because it sucks for the anxious person because
Speaker 1: it really isn't about that person that didn't write you back.
Speaker 1: You're not obsessed with them. It's all about you, yes,
Speaker 1: And it sucks because it gives us this this impression
Speaker 1: that like, they're obsessed with me, and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: they're you said. It's like the whole saying you know,
Speaker 1: it's not you, it's me. It's like so true, but
Speaker 1: but you're right. It's like, so they are trying to
Speaker 1: figure out am I worthy of being loved? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's so it's so vulnerable. Well, yes, and and both
Speaker 1: of these insecure attachments, they are both struggling with the
Speaker 1: same exact thing. Somebody who's anxious, their biggest fear is rejection.
Speaker 1: In a band them in, right, So they're clinging, but
Speaker 1: they're gonna They're gonna make it happen. Because no matter
Speaker 1: who you are, if somebody sends you fifteen text messages
Speaker 1: in a row, I hope that they would be like
Speaker 1: a red flag. Right, So you're what you're doing is
Speaker 1: you're trying to run towards that person and pull them
Speaker 1: back in. But you're running towards that person and you're
Speaker 1: really pushing them away. So the thing about that, so
Speaker 1: that's the anxious person. The avoidant person has the same fear.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be rejected and I don't want
Speaker 1: to be abandoned. But instead of them running towards somebody
Speaker 1: to pull them back in, they're going to run away first.
Speaker 1: So you can't leave me because they've they never had hope,
Speaker 1: so go back to the hope. They always lost hope.
Speaker 1: So if we talk about the soccer game, mom, dad, nanny,
Speaker 1: whoever it is it's taking care of them, never shows
Speaker 1: up to the game. They don't even know they have
Speaker 1: a game. They don't even know they play soccer, so
Speaker 1: so they are not They're just all over here by themselves.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna go ahead and run away and get
Speaker 1: out of this before you can leave me, because I
Speaker 1: know that eventually you will. So I'm gonna take care
Speaker 1: of myself. I'm gonna stop telling mom, dad, nanny, whoever,
Speaker 1: that I have a soccer game, because I know they're
Speaker 1: not going to come where the anxious person is going
Speaker 1: to remind them fifteen times that day and make sure
Speaker 1: that they get there twenty minutes early, and they're going
Speaker 1: to spot them before the game, and if they're not there,
Speaker 1: they're gonna go call them. So now let me ask you, um,
Speaker 1: what does the secure person who has a normal, healthy,
Speaker 1: fair of abandonment and rejection, how do they feel inside?
Speaker 1: How do they act on that? So, somebody who has
Speaker 1: a secure attachment, they grew up with the idea that
Speaker 1: I am worthy of love and belonging. So they have
Speaker 1: that so they can they can regulate their emotions. They
Speaker 1: can feel rejected or abandoned, not like it, it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel good, but they can sit with it and know
Speaker 1: that this doesn't define me. Breakups can still be really
Speaker 1: really really really hard because they are sad and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of grief in that, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: in that, and they know that they don't they don't
Speaker 1: ask those questions, what did I do wrong? How can
Speaker 1: I fix it? They're just like, oh that, it's like
Speaker 1: what you're talking about was like, oh man, that could
Speaker 1: have been something really awesome and it's not. And that's
Speaker 1: a bummer. But this doesn't define who I am. And
Speaker 1: there will be somebody else, somebody who's anxious in their
Speaker 1: head when they're dating somebody and they start to see
Speaker 1: these like maybe red flag things and then they start
Speaker 1: to like cling onto them because the red flags things
Speaker 1: are freaking them out. They think in their head there
Speaker 1: will never be somebody else that will be there like this.
Speaker 1: I will never find somebody that I can connect with
Speaker 1: like this. And going back to the fairy tales that
Speaker 1: we're told are soul mate, are one soul mate. If
Speaker 1: I think that we have one soul mate, if I
Speaker 1: find myself in a relationship and I'm in love with
Speaker 1: that person, I have to make it work because I
Speaker 1: have one soul mate and I can't lose my one
Speaker 1: soul mate. Right, this is like life or death in
Speaker 1: a way because you're convinced, really not even that much
Speaker 1: based on the person that they're that one chance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it is life or death because if we go
Speaker 1: back to our attachment system, we have to be connected
Speaker 1: to people to survive and thrive. So in their heads,
Speaker 1: if this person leaves me, I mean we've I felt this,
Speaker 1: I would say, I'll speak for myself, I felt this.
Speaker 1: The end of our relationship literally feels like I'm dying,
Speaker 1: Like it physically hurts. And part of that is because
Speaker 1: the same systems light up inside of our body when
Speaker 1: we feel emotional pain and physical pain. So I am
Speaker 1: really thinking I'm gonna die. I remember saying like, I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm dying because well, if I can't have
Speaker 1: this person, I won't be able to survive and thrive.
Speaker 1: I need attachment and connection. But what I didn't know
Speaker 1: is you can find it through somebody else. This is
Speaker 1: a huge question, not going to solve it on a podcast,
Speaker 1: but but basically, like the generic you know, like you're
Speaker 1: not giving someone advice telling them to go do this
Speaker 1: right now, but like in general, how do anxiously attached
Speaker 1: people move into secure attachment? What what what what does it take?
Speaker 1: So the good question and a question that I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people want to have like a really
Speaker 1: easy answer to and the answer is pretty simple, but
Speaker 1: it's just hard to do. You're not going to heal
Speaker 1: your attachment through reading a book or listening to a podcast.
Speaker 1: You might identify it, you might be like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: that's me, which is awesome. Awareness is the first step always.
Speaker 1: But what somebody needs is they actually need to find
Speaker 1: a secure base of a human being, um so that
Speaker 1: they can actually feel like somebody isn't going to always
Speaker 1: leave because we've developed this attachment because we had the
Speaker 1: hope and it left. We had the hope and it left.
Speaker 1: We had the hope and it left. We need some stability.
Speaker 1: So what it requires it requires us to one be
Speaker 1: able to regulate our emotions because in all relationships, you're
Speaker 1: going to have experiences where there's like um uneasiness, right,
Speaker 1: There's gonna be arguments, there's gonna be fights, there's I mean,
Speaker 1: even with your therapist. I've had times with my own
Speaker 1: therapist where I was like boycotting her because I was upset.
Speaker 1: But in my head it wasn't this relationship is going
Speaker 1: to end because she said this one thing that hurt
Speaker 1: my feelings. Then now I think that she doesn't like me,
Speaker 1: and so I'm never going to see her again. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I need a break. We're having like a rough patch.
Speaker 1: She's gonna still be there when I go back, though.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting. Yeah, So that's what they mean when they say,
Speaker 1: like your therapist can kind of mimic that's relationships, that's
Speaker 1: all as a and that's why therapy is so important
Speaker 1: when it comes to healing attachment wounds. And I say
Speaker 1: that knowing that not everybody can afford therapy. Um, and
Speaker 1: so there's this is an end all, be all, but
Speaker 1: a therapist is literally going to be a secure base
Speaker 1: for you, which is what we need in life to
Speaker 1: be able to have a secure attachment because you can
Speaker 1: say whatever you want. I've had clients that have cursed
Speaker 1: at me and said probably some of the meanest things
Speaker 1: I've ever heard, slammed my door so hard that the
Speaker 1: frames fell off the walls. Like I to client who
Speaker 1: ran away from treatment, and how to chase her down
Speaker 1: a dirt road, like I've had all yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I've had it all. But what I will do is
Speaker 1: I'm still going to show up to your appointment the
Speaker 1: next time. I'm still going to come back to work.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave unless it becomes like where
Speaker 1: you're being like the unsafe and I have fear for myself.
Speaker 1: I'm always going to show up no matter what. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be that secure base that will show you
Speaker 1: you can mess up. You can say things and I
Speaker 1: can mess up. I can say things and we can
Speaker 1: repair relationships. There could be rupture and I can have repair,
Speaker 1: and you can do that with people. An avoidant person
Speaker 1: is going to go repair by themselves. They're like, you're
Speaker 1: not working out for me. An avoid that person in
Speaker 1: therapy either doesn't know why they're there because somebody else
Speaker 1: asked them to go, or it's like annoying to them.
Speaker 1: We as therapists are like a bother to them. They're
Speaker 1: annoyed by us, so they're like, we don't need you.
Speaker 1: As soon as we start to like tap in and
Speaker 1: they start to feel and then they're their phooty pajamas
Speaker 1: start to get kind of like unzipped. They're like, I
Speaker 1: gotta go piece by. I'm gonna go figure out by
Speaker 1: myself for them to heal. It's like, you have to
Speaker 1: stay in it. We want you to regulate with somebody.
Speaker 1: Somebody who has an anxious attachment. They need to learn
Speaker 1: that they can regulate through relationships and they can regulate
Speaker 1: alone at times. They don't need everything to be perfect
Speaker 1: all the time. We can have a disagreement and you
Speaker 1: can go home, make a cup of coffee, drink a
Speaker 1: cup of tea, sit on the couch and sit with
Speaker 1: that feeling. And I'm not going to leave you. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of times people will say, you know, therapy
Speaker 1: don't work out for me. I thought the person was this,
Speaker 1: that or the other. It's like, but you can actually
Speaker 1: sit there and say to them, I crazy. I think
Speaker 1: you're stupid and don't know what you're talking is. Now,
Speaker 1: maybe you do have a therapist that you know. It's
Speaker 1: not everyone's great, but if you have the right therapist,
Speaker 1: then that's where you're jumping off point. My brother, I
Speaker 1: have to tell this story because that's exactly what you're
Speaker 1: talking about. I had a client and uh, we're not
Speaker 1: supposed to play favorites, but I really loved this clients.
Speaker 1: She was favorite. We I mean, yeah, we're human too,
Speaker 1: So there's people that were like, I love working with her,
Speaker 1: Like she was tough and her transformation was so cool
Speaker 1: to see. And in the very beginning of our work together,
Speaker 1: we started doing a timeline because we're going through a trauma.
Speaker 1: She came in one day and she was like, just
Speaker 1: so you know, I think this is Can I curse
Speaker 1: on here? Yes? Okay. She's like, just so you know,
Speaker 1: I think this is bullshit. I don't really understand what
Speaker 1: you're doing. It's not helping me, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm wasting my money, Like you keep saying all this stuff,
Speaker 1: but like do you even know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: It was amazing, and we had our whole session that
Speaker 1: day was all about her confronting me on things and
Speaker 1: me sitting there and being like okay and having a conversation.
Speaker 1: From then. That moment was like the turning point because
Speaker 1: she was ready. She didn't even want to come that day.
Speaker 1: She was like, I was just not going to show up,
Speaker 1: but my mom made me and I was like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: I love your mom um. But she was like after
Speaker 1: that conversation, it was like she could trust me because
Speaker 1: she got to ask the hard questions. And I wasn't
Speaker 1: like mad at her. I was I didn't like back
Speaker 1: down cower. I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense.
Speaker 1: And that's what I tell all my clients in our
Speaker 1: first session. Sometimes they forget it is if I'm doing
Speaker 1: something and you're like, this isn't helping tell me because
Speaker 1: you're this is a experiment and this is practice on
Speaker 1: how we want you to show up in the world
Speaker 1: outside of this room. So if you can't confront me
Speaker 1: where you're literally paying me, I'm here for you, how
Speaker 1: are you going to do that with anybody? But I
Speaker 1: want you to see that you can confront me and
Speaker 1: you can say whatever you want and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say get out of my office. Yeah, and they
Speaker 1: need that that actual like action. So knowledge is great,
Speaker 1: but we change our systems, our attachment systems, through like
Speaker 1: actually going through the motions. So how would someone do
Speaker 1: it who's not in therapy right now? You know they're
Speaker 1: going to go in six months, but how can they
Speaker 1: get started? Can they do this with friends? Can they
Speaker 1: do it by themselves? So you can heal your attachment.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be through a therapist. You can
Speaker 1: heal it through finding secure people in our lives, but
Speaker 1: we have to be aware of what we're looking for.
Speaker 1: And this goes to therapy too, because it's true not
Speaker 1: every therapist is good. And so if we can find
Speaker 1: people who feel safe and we can actually be honest
Speaker 1: about those red flags that we see, then we can
Speaker 1: learn how to do that through actual relationships in our lives.
Speaker 1: We don't have to do it in like a therapeutic office.
Speaker 1: It's just sometimes it's easier that way. Anxiety bites will
Speaker 1: be right back after a quick little message from one
Speaker 1: of our sponsors. So this, this thing that's Patti Stanger
Speaker 1: says to people, you know you have the wrong picker.
Speaker 1: It does seem almost magical, Like I don't want to
Speaker 1: meet people who do X, and I swear to God,
Speaker 1: it's not like I'm I'm going to like, you know,
Speaker 1: their profile and reading every horrible thing about them and
Speaker 1: picking them. It is literally across a bar, I meet
Speaker 1: eyes with someone or on an app we match. How then,
Speaker 1: how how is it so fucking I mean, it's freaky.
Speaker 1: I mean when we talk about psychology, we rarely talk
Speaker 1: about vibes and spirit like this is almost spiritual or
Speaker 1: magical or weird it's freaky. How do we find these
Speaker 1: people when we really don't want it? Like, literally, how
Speaker 1: does it work that that I'm across the bar and
Speaker 1: I find an attachment style that doesn't work for me?
Speaker 1: What is going on underneath there? How do we sense it?
Speaker 1: So there is a part that is like the magrical feature,
Speaker 1: and it's just it is so freaky when you think
Speaker 1: about it. And it goes back to like Freudy and
Speaker 1: stuff in the beginning, which is like really really weird
Speaker 1: when you read about it, that we do have this
Speaker 1: like aura that we're attracted to. There is like like
Speaker 1: when you talk about like pheromones and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: It's almost something like that where we are attracted to
Speaker 1: what we know and it pulls us in. There's that part,
Speaker 1: and there's this other part where sometimes what's happening is
Speaker 1: you're meeting the same people that are everybody else is meaning.
Speaker 1: But when we have insecure attachments, were less likely to
Speaker 1: recognize the red flags. So a lot of times when
Speaker 1: we get stuck in these relationships over and over and
Speaker 1: over and over again, let's just go with the anxious. Uh,
Speaker 1: if I have an anxious attachment, I keep finding these
Speaker 1: people and keep finding myself in these relationships and this
Speaker 1: person is just avoidant and then and they're leaving me
Speaker 1: over and over. How do you keep doing this? It's
Speaker 1: because when I see the red flags, when I see
Speaker 1: somebody who is all love bombing in the beginning, and
Speaker 1: it's like all about me, and then suddenly they start
Speaker 1: to drift away and drift away and drift away. Instead
Speaker 1: of me seeing a red flag and being like, oh,
Speaker 1: this looks like avoidant behavior, I'm sticking around longer because
Speaker 1: I'm gonna my head. I want to change it. I'm
Speaker 1: like I have to. I have to prove that I'm
Speaker 1: worthy of their love. I have to prove it where
Speaker 1: somebody with a secure attachment is like this guy or
Speaker 1: the skirl is cuckoo. I've got to get out of this.
Speaker 1: They're giving me all these mixed messages. This is not
Speaker 1: for me. I love what you said. You are meeting
Speaker 1: the same people that everyone else is. It's just we
Speaker 1: you're taking one extra step just staying in it longer.
Speaker 1: I love that because I think if the headline here,
Speaker 1: if you have ten seconds only, that's the most important
Speaker 1: thing that is just a quick sound bite, is you're
Speaker 1: meeting the same people that everyone else is. It is
Speaker 1: not about that initial thing. It is about what happens
Speaker 1: one day later. Do you just go oh, not for me?
Speaker 1: And there's so much there's so many like and sometimes
Speaker 1: I think they're funny. But all these memes and stuff
Speaker 1: that are like make fun of being attracted to red flags,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, can we stop doing that? Because that's
Speaker 1: not something to laugh about. That's like your your attachment
Speaker 1: that is actually causing you a lot of pain that
Speaker 1: where you're like red flag, I'm gonna stick with it,
Speaker 1: where a secure person is like red flag, gotta go
Speaker 1: by Man, this stinks. I wish this wasn't this way,
Speaker 1: but I gotta go. So do you ever see couples
Speaker 1: that are like attachment styles that don't normally work out
Speaker 1: stay together and it works out like that that that's
Speaker 1: like the magic of them. Um no, I will like
Speaker 1: to put it simply like no, Like I I think
Speaker 1: that's like this like fairy tale that people want, they
Speaker 1: want that to be possible, but they're confusing it with
Speaker 1: like opposites You're gonna find because if you have an
Speaker 1: avoidant and an anxious person, the anxious person is going
Speaker 1: to lean in the avoidance going to lean out. If
Speaker 1: you have two avoidant people, they're both going to lean out.
Speaker 1: If you have two anxious people, that is just a
Speaker 1: hot miss disaster Like that is just a chaotic, like
Speaker 1: the most most toxic relationship that you can think about
Speaker 1: that you can think of. So that's not to say,
Speaker 1: because we know attachment systems can change or it can change.
Speaker 1: That's not to say you'll never be able to be
Speaker 1: with this person, but while they're in their stuff, this
Speaker 1: is not going to be good. What about an anxious
Speaker 1: in a secure Sure if the secure is like so
Speaker 1: secure that they're like, um, get your ship together, but
Speaker 1: I'm not going anywhere. But and then they do, that
Speaker 1: could happen, and there's a spectrum of this, right, So
Speaker 1: I think that we're getting into this this part where
Speaker 1: like you could be secure and have some anxious tendencies,
Speaker 1: but you're not fully over here anxiously attached. You've done
Speaker 1: some of your work because most likely at the time
Speaker 1: a secure person who starts dating somebody anxious is going
Speaker 1: to be like this is I gotta go? Yeah, because
Speaker 1: I think I'm secure with some avoidance tendencies. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so I can catch them enough but if someone calls
Speaker 1: me on it, I can say, oh, you know what, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the thing I do. Here's where it's coming from,
Speaker 1: Like I want to be in this. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: This is my default mode. But it's like it's not, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm aware of it, but you don't have fully zipped up. No,
Speaker 1: they're like half undone, so I can be easy. So
Speaker 1: it's sort of like not to say that everyone has
Speaker 1: to be a percent secure and those are the only
Speaker 1: people in the world that make it work. So it's
Speaker 1: like there's a spectrum, so you can be secure with
Speaker 1: blank and blank tendencies. So that gives everyone a lot
Speaker 1: of hope. There's a lot of fluidity out there. Well
Speaker 1: you know what I also say, because I get that
Speaker 1: question all of the time from clients. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: I think they're avoidant, but don't you think I can
Speaker 1: make it work? Like don't you think? And I will
Speaker 1: say it wouldn't work for me, but it depends on
Speaker 1: how healthy you want your relationship to be. Oh, they're
Speaker 1: like okay, so it's so true, and it's like it
Speaker 1: can work. But are they at their therapist asking this question?
Speaker 1: Probably not? Probably not. Yeah, I always picture like what's
Speaker 1: the other person doing? Are they caring about this as much?
Speaker 1: And it's just like yeah, because you have to think
Speaker 1: about somebody. If they're in their attachment, what they're doing
Speaker 1: is working for them. So an avoidant person who has
Speaker 1: is leaving getting these relationships it's awesome and they leave
Speaker 1: that's working for them because they don't have to face
Speaker 1: their biggest fear. Yeah. So if it's working for them,
Speaker 1: they're not going to want to change it. So is
Speaker 1: there something about, you know, the loneliness that people aren't
Speaker 1: expressing because they're embarrassed that can lead to anxiety which
Speaker 1: is so like gut wrenching to me because I used
Speaker 1: to say, or people like, what do you specialize in?
Speaker 1: I would say like loneliness because everybody that's coming into
Speaker 1: my office, the root of their stuff is their bidding
Speaker 1: for connection in some way. And there are studies that
Speaker 1: have been done talking about attachment. They've done They were
Speaker 1: done in research on attachment theory that show when you
Speaker 1: are exposed to an anxiety provoking event, if you're holding
Speaker 1: hands with a stranger, your anxiety levels are lower then
Speaker 1: if you're just by yourself, and if a stranger like
Speaker 1: somebody you don't even know. And then of course, if
Speaker 1: you're holding hands with somebody that you're connected to, your
Speaker 1: anxiety levels are like way wait, wait wait wait wait,
Speaker 1: way down. So yeah, I think that if I could
Speaker 1: give any like hope to anybody in this realm of
Speaker 1: um sadness around like relationships or I don't have my
Speaker 1: one person, It's like, you don't need like that one
Speaker 1: on one special person to feel okay in the world
Speaker 1: and to regulate. You just need to be connected to somebody.
Speaker 1: You need to be open up to somebody. And just
Speaker 1: so you know, everybody is struggling with this and has
Speaker 1: struggled with this at some point in their life. Everybody
Speaker 1: has felt the feeling of loneliness. We all have the
Speaker 1: same emotions. All humans have the same exact emotions, and
Speaker 1: we've all felt all of them. So you're not alone
Speaker 1: and being lonely. I love that you're so brilliant. I
Speaker 1: love I love hearing everything you have to say. And
Speaker 1: I know we only scratch the surface on all of this,
Speaker 1: but I think it gives a good idea to people to,
Speaker 1: you know, stay away from the memes. They're funny, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you keep a distant from them. Yeah, and and you
Speaker 1: know self self diagnosing is one thing, but just becoming
Speaker 1: aware of something is probably just keep it there and uh,
Speaker 1: don't text back like a couple. At least we can start.
Speaker 1: There's where someone else. I used to tell people. I
Speaker 1: had one client that she always was like I want
Speaker 1: to She would send these novel texts and eventually I
Speaker 1: was like, you need to get like a hobby, like
Speaker 1: maybe you garden or something when you want to text.
Speaker 1: And then she set me a picture one day where
Speaker 1: she had gone to like a plant store and bought
Speaker 1: like five, like five plants. She was like, Okay, my
Speaker 1: anxiety is now costing me all this money and gardening.
Speaker 1: It was so funny. So if anything, if you want
Speaker 1: to text somebody, go find another hobby. Take your mind
Speaker 1: off a bit for a second. I hope you learned
Speaker 1: a lot from this episode. And you can follow Cat
Speaker 1: on social media. She on Instagram is at cat k
Speaker 1: A T dot d e F A T t A
Speaker 1: and at You Need Therapy podcast. Both of those are
Speaker 1: Instagram handles, and of course the link to every thing
Speaker 1: Cat is in our show notes if you want to
Speaker 1: read takeaways from this episode or other episodes. I will
Speaker 1: put the link in the show notes, or you can
Speaker 1: go to Jen Kirkman dot com slash Anxiety Bites podcast.
Speaker 1: If you are listening to this like the second it
Speaker 1: drops on Wednesday. My takeaways might not be up yet,
Speaker 1: but keep checking and certainly you can read ones from
Speaker 1: past episodes if you want to send an email to
Speaker 1: the podcast about what you've learned. If you have any questions,
Speaker 1: If you want to share your anxiety tricks and tips
Speaker 1: and inspirations, please email the show Anxiety Bites Weekly at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com and it may be read on a
Speaker 1: future episode. Please use a fake first name if you
Speaker 1: don't want your real first name to be read on air.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get into the takeaways. There are so
Speaker 1: many in this episode. Attachment styles are fluid. You can
Speaker 1: have an insecure attachment early on and then move into
Speaker 1: secure attachment as you get older, it can change. The
Speaker 1: three types of attachment styles in adults are secure attachment,
Speaker 1: anxious attachment, which is sometimes called preoccupied, and avoidant attachment,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes called dismissive. Often therapists can misdiagnose a
Speaker 1: patient with love addiction or relationship codependency when it's really
Speaker 1: more of an attachment style issue, but people with anxious
Speaker 1: or avoidant attachment styles can sometimes exhibit signs of other things.
Speaker 1: Most people who stay with a partner who isn't fulfilling
Speaker 1: their needs, they're not staying to change their partner, but
Speaker 1: to prove to themselves that they're worthy and lovable by
Speaker 1: trying to get someone ambivalent about them to love them.
Speaker 1: There are early attachment styles and there are adult attachment styles.
Speaker 1: Early attachment styles are determined by our relationship to our
Speaker 1: primary caregiver, and that does not have to be an
Speaker 1: actual relative. People with the avoidant adult avoidant attachment style
Speaker 1: may seem to love m someone at first, and that's
Speaker 1: not because they're deceptive or narcissist, but because it's a
Speaker 1: way for them to avoid their feelings or their needs
Speaker 1: and they exclusively focus on someone else. Most people with
Speaker 1: anxious or avoidant attachment styles are not going to do
Speaker 1: too well with one another, and people um with secure
Speaker 1: attachment styles can still have little traces of avoidance or anxious.
Speaker 1: But the news that people probably don't want to hear
Speaker 1: is you cannot change someone's attachment style. They have to
Speaker 1: do that themselves, and usually not while they're in the
Speaker 1: relationship with you. An avoidant person has been taught to
Speaker 1: shut off their needs and their feelings. Katherine says to
Speaker 1: imagine someone wearing footie pajamas that are zipped all the
Speaker 1: way up as a visual image of what that looks like.
Speaker 1: The avoidance subconscious thought cycle is if I have feelings,
Speaker 1: feelings signify a need. So if I have feelings, I'm
Speaker 1: going to have a need. And every time I but need,
Speaker 1: my needs aren't met. So I'm going to go backwards
Speaker 1: and not have needs or feelings. Avoidance can self soothe
Speaker 1: by overworking, playing video games, preoccupy themselves on social media,
Speaker 1: all to get away from interpersonal relationships. We were created
Speaker 1: to need people and connection, but we don't have to
Speaker 1: exclusively get our needs met by romantic relationships. An avoidance
Speaker 1: will over self soothe, and an anxious attached person will
Speaker 1: under self soothe so that it becomes that the only
Speaker 1: way to soothe themselves is through one special person. Somebody
Speaker 1: with an anxious attachment style has been shown hope and
Speaker 1: they've had that hope taken away, So when they get
Speaker 1: the love that they want, or think that they have
Speaker 1: the love that they want, they can cling for fear
Speaker 1: of that love leaving. An anxiously attached person almost has
Speaker 1: a sixth sense about being abandoned and their gut reactions
Speaker 1: about things being wrong or pretty good, but they moved
Speaker 1: too fast when they react to those feeling. Anxiously attached
Speaker 1: people have to fix what they think is wrong immediately
Speaker 1: because they can't self regulate their emotions and they can't
Speaker 1: just sit in it and take a minute. An anxiously
Speaker 1: attached person will be running towards somebody to pull them
Speaker 1: back in for fear of losing them, but what they're
Speaker 1: really doing is pushing that person away, and an avoidant
Speaker 1: has the same fear. They don't want to be rejected
Speaker 1: or abandoned, but they run away first so that they
Speaker 1: can't be rejected. A securely attached person does not like
Speaker 1: to be abandoned or rejected, but they believe that they
Speaker 1: belong and they're worthy of love. They can self regulate
Speaker 1: their emotions. They can sit with their feelings and know
Speaker 1: that this breakup doesn't define them. They don't ask what
Speaker 1: did I do wrong? How can I go back and
Speaker 1: fix it? Nobody's picker is off. We may find ourselves
Speaker 1: drawn to people who aren't good for us, but anxious
Speaker 1: and avoidant attached people they meet all of the same
Speaker 1: people that securely attached people meet, but the differences. They
Speaker 1: will stay in something and ignoring the red flags, and
Speaker 1: the securely attached stop at red flags. But it can
Speaker 1: get confusing and make you think that your initial picker
Speaker 1: is wrong. We can develop our adult attachment styles you're
Speaker 1: better or worse through media like TV and movies and
Speaker 1: the stories they tell about love. A therapist can be
Speaker 1: a secure base for a patient to help them practice
Speaker 1: moving into a secure attachment style. Again, thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to Anxiety Bites. Everything you need is in the
Speaker 1: show notes, and just remember anxiety Bites, but you're in control.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.