WEBVTT - No More Band-Aids 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.600 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKA app Daily with 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.400 Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody, recording once again from the 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.599 Brooklyn Bunker. Folks, I'm very excited to bring this episode 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:27.479 to you today on one of the biggest crises, as 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.520 if there aren't seventeen thousand of them happening at the 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:35.480 same time, but the horrific crisis that is affecting over 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:40.960 forty five million Americans, and that is the student debt crisis. Right. 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.239 The fact that over forty five million Americans are in 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:49.160 one point eight a collective one point eight trillion dollars 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.920 worth of debt. You've heard from progressives asking for debt relief. 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.480 You've heard the Biden administration once again hit pause on 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.320 paybacks on student loans right, and on student loan interests 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.559 in the wake of COVID nineteen. But this is something 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.720 that once again in a couple of months back in May, 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.200 will they hit pause again because what seems to be 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.399 happening is a consistency in kicking the can down the 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.160 road instead of dealing with the student loan debt crisis. 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:24.080 You should not, right, we should not be in debt 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.000 in order to get an education, which as one of 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.320 my guests. We have two today, but one of them. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:34.000 First up, doctor Elizabeth Tandy Scharmer, who is the author 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:40.360 of Indentured Students How government guaranteeing loans left generations drowning 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.920 in college debt. How. Doctor Scharmer will talk about the 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.800 ways in which essentially this has looked like entrapment for 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.080 low income students, students of color, and women. When we 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.560 look at the demographic breakdown of who those over forty 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:01.240 five million are, it is those students, right, So what 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:06.480 is this administration doing? Coming behind doctor Shermer will be 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.440 doctor John Oberg, who you may have heard of. He 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.680 is a whistleblower from the Department of Education and a 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:19.440 political scientist who recognize that the lenders were cheating. We're 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.320 cheating students looking for loans, right, We're cheating the Department 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.920 of Education in terms of the amount of money that 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.040 they were going to be giving back to them. The 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.799 Department of Education was complicit in what the lenders were 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.760 doing and then decided to turn the money that they 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:39.560 supposedly owed, right, that the lenders owed to the Department 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:44.520 of Education into additional loans to place the burden on 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.000 students as opposed to the lenders. And what doctor John 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.560 Oberg will tell us is that the Department of Education 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.880 is and was complicit in this action. Right, So, not 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:02.120 only are we kicking student loan relieved student debt down 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.400 the road, but we're also continuing the vicious cycle of 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:12.640 turning these students, as doctor Shermer says, into indentured servants. Right, 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:17.080 So what is this administration going to do and what 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:21.920 are the ideas that both doctor Shermer and doctor Orberg 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.960 will offer to us as ways out of this crisis, folks? 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:32.680 That is coming up next, folks. I am very excited 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.960 to welcome to wok F Daily for the very first 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.800 time doctor Elizabeth Tandy Shermer, who is the author of 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:45.800 Indentured Students How government guaranteed loans left generations drowning in 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.800 college debt. And by generations, we're talking about forty five 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:56.920 million Americans. Over forty five million Americans are affected by 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:01.200 the student loan debt crisis, which many have referred to 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:06.840 as being predatory, as it is women and people of 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.800 color who are the ones that are most disadvantaged by 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.920 this loan system and therefore caught in this And I 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.599 love that I love the title of your book, caught 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:25.680 in this indentured servitude once they finished school. So Dr Shermer, 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:30.760 let's just start off with, you know, tell us big picture. 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.839 How did we get here? How did we get into 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:39.719 a space where one point eight trilliant trillion dollars of 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:44.360 student loan debt is just hanging over the heads of 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:48.359 over forty five million Americans. It's a story of the 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.599 worst of intentions. And I know because the classic story 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.040 is like the best of intentions and was just so 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.640 well thought and as only recently, but actually we've been 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.400 having a problem with college affordability for more than a century. 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.280 And I think the real issue is that when I 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:08.040 say the worst of intentions, it was policymakers refusing to 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.279 actually invest in the public goods and public needs that 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.679 we need, like colleges and universities which provide the research 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.760 that we need for vaccines, also the social science research 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.599 about how to for example, roll them out, and then 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.640 also help fund the humanities which kept us sane and 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.359 gave us the critical reading and thinking skills to understand 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.880 how to get out of this crisis. And we need 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.520 an educated citizenry. We need that. But what we're going 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.599 to do is instead of actually investing in these institutions, 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.440 stop them from competing for tuition revenue, do own or 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.920 revenue all these other kinds of things. We are going 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.839 to create a really terrible financial product, because let's just 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.120 think this true. I am going to give you a 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.919 loan for something that I can't repossess and sell to 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.800 someone else. That's what a terrible idea. And even if 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.880 I could, you could never then and actually compete for 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.200 the job in order to get the money to ever 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:08.200 pay me back. And by the way, you're only collateral 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.680 for being forgetting this loan is being admitted to a 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.120 college university that needs your tuition revenue. So what a 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.120 shitty idea. And it was actually modeled on one of 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.719 the most on a very now infamous federal program, the 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:28.600 federal mortgage program, which we now know has disproportionately widened 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.320 racial and gender wealth gaps, period full stop. And that's 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.720 exactly what they did in the sixties. I know what 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.480 we'll do. Let's use that federal mortgage program and will 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.719 model it for something it is nothing like a mortgage, 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.679 a student loan, you know, one of the things that 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.640 just deeply troubles me right about about this entire system, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:51.479 and it and you know, and it is it is 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.599 criminal to me, right, it's criminal to tell people, especially 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.800 those that are low income, that in order for you 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.760 to succeed in this capitalist, you know, factory that we 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.280 have created, that you need to go to college. Right. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.680 I can remember from when I was in elementary school, 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.120 that was beat into everyone's head, right in my you know, 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:21.200 middle income suburban school district. Go to college, Go to college, 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.920 Go to college. No one ever talked about what the 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.640 burden was going to be after you left college. No 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.400 one ever talked about the fact that, you know, folks 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.120 weren't retiring at the rates that they were retiring at 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.320 that you were. Your first job at a college in 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:40.280 many places wasn't even going to cover right, the loan 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:44.440 that you took out. But we made it impossible right 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.800 for you to continue on with just a high school 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.040 education and a majority of places, so we made it 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.000 like a necessity to go to college, but didn't create 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.760 a system that would allow people to do that without 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.760 tying a noose around their necks. You're totally right, and 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.120 it is this faith that you know, what, if you 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.720 just go to college, you'll be able to compete for 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.040 the well paying work. That was the whole idea of 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:11.480 social ability, never actually tackling the problems within the labor market. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.360 The reason that women for reason that women and people 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.320 of color have a harder time dealing with this is 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.400 one the financial aid officers. Despite what y'all might have 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.960 heard about affirmative action, they don't tend to get. They 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.040 don't tend to get the financial aid to stop them 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.840 from borrowing. More importantly, when they're actually out on the 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.280 labor market, they are still paid pennies on the dollar 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.880 two white men, period, full stop. And then in the 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.439 case of women, women women are the ones who are 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.240 more likely to be constantly moving in and out of 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.319 the labor market to provide unpaid care and to pause 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.120 those loans. This is what's unique about this moratorium period 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.880 right now, when you pause those loans. Sorry for the language, 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.079 The fucking interest is still accruing for women who are 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.760 doing the care that we need them to do for 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:03.160 both elderly librelats for children, and we're going to penalize 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.800 them by having more, by just indebting them further. And 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.160 I have to say, I'm so glad that you appreciated 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.720 the title indentured students because I got it. I got 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:14.600 used to get a lot of pushback from it, but 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:18.120 I always pointed out, but that's how people talk about it, Yeah, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.240 talk about being indentured. And when we realize the racial 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.520 and gender aspects built into this program from the beginning, 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.360 why are we not saying that? Why are we not 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.760 talking about that and really listening to the folks who 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.160 are feeling the biggest burdens. Because it is a factor 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.360 of race and a factor of gender, period, you know. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:38.800 And the reason why we don't talk about it is 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.160 for those very two reasons, right, Because it is a 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.120 factor of gender, and it's a factor of race, and 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.360 that we like to pretend in this country that those 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.200 things are accidental, right, like, oh, that you know that 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.320 they are not purposefully paving the road to hell for 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.520 those particular communities who are unable to come out of 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.720 pocket right to pay four tuitions that are fifty sixty 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:07.319 thousand dollars a year, right because we also then we've 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:12.880 created an entire predatory system, so one for people who 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:18.080 cannot afford those fifty sixty thousand dollars price tags for university. 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.240 Then we created a for profit model, right, a predatory 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.560 college where you can go and get your certificate for 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:30.080 a quarter of that, but then that certificate is not real, right, 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.000 Like no one's accepting it. Right. It's like it's like 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.800 a series of Trump universities that we've created because we've 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.520 created a system that doesn't allow people to really access 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.920 right the educations that they need without all of these 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.400 strings being attached. Absolutely, And the one thing I'm going 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.400 to say here is that I think for me, and 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.040 this is it's again my brilliant friend kat Ramirez, he 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.480 teaches at University California, Santa Cruz. She has always said, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.559 is that we in higher education, in the nonprofit sectors 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.439 are feeling what is happening in the K through twelve schools. 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:07.079 We are being demanded to do more with less, and 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.520 so yet I am getting right now in the middle 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.360 of a whip shop pivot to going virtual. But to 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.960 do that responsibly, to actually connect with people, to make 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:20.640 it accessible and meaningful, means completely overhauling everything to actually 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:22.520 meet the reality of students where they are, where the 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.040 majority of students are working more than part time. It's 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.080 bullshit to think that twenty five hours a week is 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.920 part times. That's more than forty hours a week. And 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.120 that's the reality of it. And so we are setting 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.080 both up these basic public goods. We have turned them 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.800 into private luxuries. And then those that are not the 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.600 wealthy ones that can actually provide it, we are actually 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.360 then damning them for not providing more with less. Why 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.400 is it, why is it that so many college universities 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.760 now have to have food banks. They are on the 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.960 front lines of a food housing insecurity because we have 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.000 so disinvested in the basic needs of the people of 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.840 this country, all of the people of this country. I 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.560 had no idea. Tell me more about these food banks 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:07.720 and why schools have to have them. I have not 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.679 heard this. This is new stop. It's food and housing insecurity, period, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.640 full stop. And so I am sure that this is 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.760 still correct that University of California campus is each one 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.200 has a food bank. Here in the city of Chicago, 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.559 there is a I believe what they're doing now with 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.120 the city colleges is a food truck coming in for 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.040 a food bank. It's not a food truck is like 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.160 you know millennials having tacos. It is literally a pantry, 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:34.720 a food pantry, a mobile one coming to these city 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.560 colleges because on the front lines are these college universities 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.800 because so many people I'm thinking about what you said 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.840 about what you were told about you have to go 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:44.680 to college. You have to go to college. So many 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.440 people are trying because it's so tied to getting a 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.760 good job. But then there's so much inequality in this 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.920 country that is worsening, just exacerbated by the pandemic. And 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.760 if you're trying to do better and your first avenue college, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.200 then we're meeting. Colleges are meeting at the front lines 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.840 the food and housing in security. At George Mason University 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.680 m a university near where I grew up, they have 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.719 many students. That is where my master's degree is from. 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:20.840 Oh that's amazing Nova. Yeah, so I'm familiar. Yeah, but no, 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:22.760 but we that is it is it is a it 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.400 is a it is a it is a serious issue 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.240 that we're seeing actually across the country. And this is 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.480 the incredible work of UM Temple's Hope Center, which did 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.480 the first big UM study to show that a third 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.400 of American college and university students, and this, by the way, 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.240 is pre pandemic, UM had food and housing insecurity, had 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.880 basic food and housing insecurity. And I think that that's 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.520 what we really need to talk about, is that we're 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:48.880 meeting not just young people, but people going back at 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.640 different points in their lives. In fact, I just got 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.200 an email from a person who's returning after twelve years 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.319 UM trying to restart her graduate program that this is 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:02.240 UM college universities, just like K through twelve schools, are 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:03.720 on the front lines in the case. If you're in 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.640 the city of Chicago, your listeners might know what we're 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.880 having a big standoff right now about going back safely. 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.000 But even before that, CPS schools were actually open during 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.360 the pandemic, not for construction, but actually I would walk 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.280 by them. There's a couple in my neighborhood to deliver meals. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.520 So we have decided to put schools on the front 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.280 lines of dealing with food and security. I'm an educator. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.160 I don't have the training to do that, and I 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.160 have tried to educate myself on the issue and learn 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.720 about the resources available. But we're asking colleges, universities K 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.280 through twelve schools to do more with less and to 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.120 be on the front lines of crisises. Before we even 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.080 had this pandemic. Let me switch gears for a moment 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:51.080 to talk about this current administration and what it was 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.280 that they said that they were going to do with 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:57.920 regard to the student loan debt crisis. And what we 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.960 have seen right by of the pandemic is the can 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.200 being kicked down the road. We'll just continue to pause, right, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.680 We'll continue to press pause, but we won't try and 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.000 actually stop or fix the problem um with you know you, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.160 we'll pause you paying back. But like you said, the 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.280 interest is still occurring. It's still the interest right now 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.080 is not accruing the interest is That's what that is, 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.600 what's really important right now it's happening. Is this is 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.080 historic because they they they hit pause on the interest 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:30.120 as well, for sure. But and that's that not everyone 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.320 qualifies for that. That's the thing. There's there's some federal 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.440 loans that don't qualify for this pause, and then the 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:41.000 private loans don't. So, I mean, my my feeling is, 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:46.920 you know why if this is a bipartisan issue, and 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.080 let me just pretend right now that we have an 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.680 actual two party system, Let's just pretend that Republicans care 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.760 um knowing that they don't. But there have been bipartisan 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.160 solutions that have been put together right to deal with 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.960 this crisis, and yet nothing has happened. My feeling, because 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.880 I'm a cynic but also a realist, is the fact that, oh, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.640 it's because of who it's affecting, the same reason why 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.760 we wanted to open up, you know, the economies of 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.240 various states at the height of the first wave of 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.920 the pandemic because it was only people of color and 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.320 women that were that were being affected. It wasn't anybody else. 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:28.160 So you know, go with God, why is this stuck? 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.280 Why are we stuck here knowing that this is a 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:36.400 major major problem and that is going to have legs 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:42.240 that affect all all industries right, all areas of our lives. Well, 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.040 so the first thing is, like, I do actually think 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.480 the people empower many of them do not have to borrow. 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.880 If seventy of students now need to borrow and families 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.880 need to borrow, there is that top thirty percent. And 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.040 I think from my perspective of someone who's trying to 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.600 get this book published, it was interesting to me that 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:02.040 a lot of the publishers they didn't ever have to borrow, right, 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.280 And so that's who's at the helm, it's a pipeline thing. 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.280 But then once I got into, once I got into 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.200 the folks who are actually helping me with like actually 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:13.959 getting the book ready to the editors and things like that, 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:15.800 they all had to borrow. And I think it's a 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.440 really interesting thing about who the gatekeepers at the top 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.960 actually are. But I think the other thing I think 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.159 that's really important is that I completely agree with you. 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.680 What's really I always talked about this the Indentured Students book, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.120 which is everyone wanted a book about a bunch of big, 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.080 bad bankers. Well, actually, the banking industry actually initially fought 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.000 the federal loan program. They didn't want it. They didn't 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.800 want besides the fact that it's a terrible investment, they 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.800 didn't want more expansion of federal power. And it was 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.760 a bipartisan doubling down on creative financing as opposed to 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.800 investing in the American people in the nineteen sixties. We're 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.359 just going to give them another financial product. We didn't 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.600 give them housing the thirties. We're going to give them 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.640 a financial product we didn't give that. We actually didn't 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.199 give them schooling in the sixties. We're going to give 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.520 them a financial product to creatively pay for it. And 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.000 I think for me is that when you actually look 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.359 at it is we are dealing with a twenty first 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.960 century democracy with real ideas about you know, majority rule 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.120 and things like that, based on an eighteenth century constitution 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.720 that has been so supported and so to me, to 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.639 be honest, if I could only have one thing, like 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.080 I had a magical ferry, and I could have one thing, 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.159 I would actually start to get to because the student 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.320 deck crisis is just an example of many crisises of 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.040 Americans having to pay out a pocket for basic goods. 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.840 I would start with voting rights. And I mean, actually 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.359 beyond what's going on right now and they're fighting about 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.560 in the House and the Senate, I would why is 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.560 it that we only have four hundred and thirty five 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.760 representatives in Congress that was set in the late twenties. 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.320 You know, the country is lot bigger right now. It's 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.320 just a lot bigger right now. We do not have 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:55.560 real representation, real representation dealing with this the undemocratic aspects 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.320 baked into a constitution written more than two hundred years ago. 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.240 We are a twenty first century democracy that isn't good 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:05.560 enough anymore. And if we want to start with this 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.000 crisis and everything else that's intertwined with it, like a 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.159 healthcare crisis, all these things, it's got to start actually 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.800 with having a really functioning democracy, you know, everything to 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:20.439 in everything needs to start with the foundation of a 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:25.919 functional and actually representative democracy, right, which, if we are 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.840 honest with ourselves, to your point, we've actually never had, right, Yeah, 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:35.040 particular and you know, particularly somebody like myself who is 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.240 at the intersection of multiple marginalized communities, as a black woman, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.159 as a queer woman, you know, as a as a 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:46.080 child of immigrants, Like there is just there. There has 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.600 never been equity in that way. But we also have 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.480 to be honest about the fact that it was set 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.600 up like that, right, Like it is it is succeeding 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.600 in who it was choosing to keep out, right, because 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.920 you need in order to have a functional pitalist society, 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.480 somebody needs to be on the bottom, right, Like that's 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.400 that's how you want to talk about, like the actual 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.119 pyramid scheme, like it's capitalism, right, and who is on 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.680 the bottom and who and why you need to stay 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.320 there in order to aid those at the top. Please 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.919 go ahead, And what I had to be what I like, 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.080 what I think is really important to remember when we 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.040 talk about the origins of all this, the real origins 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.600 of the Guaranteed Student Loan program hidden and seemingly hidden 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.800 in that like mid nineteen sixties a celebrated Higher Education Act. 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.439 It's called the Guaranteed Student Loan Program. But the guarantee 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.199 was not for the students that they not that they 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.840 would get admitted, not that they would actually finish. The 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.040 guarantee was not for the schools if they would actually 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.040 be able to expand and meet public demand and new 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.280 expectations for all their many uses. The guarantee was that 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:47.719 bankers would be repaid on one of the worst financial 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.440 products you could ever come with. That's what it always 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.399 comes down to, and that was built into that was 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.520 modeled off of the guarantee in the thirties for housing. 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.840 The guarantee for the federal mortgage program was bankers would 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.760 be repaid for giving out mortgages. And by the way, 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.640 we're going to construct this entire program to make it 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.640 extremely hard for people of color and women to actually 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:15.280 get a mortgage. There we go. I mean, you know, 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:17.480 I gotta tell you, and I say this all the 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.840 time on woke AF It's like the more that I know, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.480 the angry or I become, and if you know me, 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.600 then you know that there is really just no bottom 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.679 to my rage. But it is so what pisses me 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.920 off the most is that these dots are not connected. Right. 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.000 What pisses me off the most is that we continue 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.359 to look for band aid fixes for systemic problems that 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.639 were created on purpose. Right, And I yes, and I 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.240 also think too, Yes, I'm tired of band aids. You're 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:51.680 absolutely right. That's where I was like, you want to 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.480 go for the juggler, Let's go to voting. Let's go 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.240 to voting and do that. But then also I think 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:58.200 we have to look at the language because they're pretty 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.920 freaking honestness, the guarantee student loan porker, I mean, it 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.480 was tricky who actually is getting as guaranteed? But I 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:05.239 also the one I don't like right now is the 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.959 public sector loan forgiveness. No one need has done anything 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.959 that needs to be forgiven. No person in this country 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:14.960 who has student debt needs to be forgiven for the 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.480 debt that they incurred for the education that we need 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:22.080 them to have. As a twenty first century democracy right, 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.160 not just for our workforce, but just to actually, you know, 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:30.439 keep going. And then also they don't need any forgiveness 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.880 for trying to do that for themselves. And I think 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:34.240 one of the things that I think is a real 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.960 tragedy is that we've made it so much about the 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:39.840 cost of this, how you're going to pay that back. 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:44.119 We don't actually give those who cannot easily afford to 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:46.600 go to college, and that's the majority of Americans now. 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.280 We haven't give them the chance to actually go to 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.320 college and explore what they might be interested in. We've 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.160 just made it about the paycheck. And it's just such 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:58.200 so corrosive, because is there any wonder why we are 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.720