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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WIKA app Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody, recording once again from the

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bunker. Folks, I'm very excited to bring this episode

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Speaker 1: to you today on one of the biggest crises, as

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Speaker 1: if there aren't seventeen thousand of them happening at the

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Speaker 1: same time, but the horrific crisis that is affecting over

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Speaker 1: forty five million Americans, and that is the student debt crisis. Right.

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Speaker 1: The fact that over forty five million Americans are in

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Speaker 1: one point eight a collective one point eight trillion dollars

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Speaker 1: worth of debt. You've heard from progressives asking for debt relief.

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Speaker 1: You've heard the Biden administration once again hit pause on

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Speaker 1: paybacks on student loans right, and on student loan interests

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Speaker 1: in the wake of COVID nineteen. But this is something

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Speaker 1: that once again in a couple of months back in May,

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Speaker 1: will they hit pause again because what seems to be

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Speaker 1: happening is a consistency in kicking the can down the

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Speaker 1: road instead of dealing with the student loan debt crisis.

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Speaker 1: You should not, right, we should not be in debt

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Speaker 1: in order to get an education, which as one of

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Speaker 1: my guests. We have two today, but one of them.

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Speaker 1: First up, doctor Elizabeth Tandy Scharmer, who is the author

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Speaker 1: of Indentured Students How government guaranteeing loans left generations drowning

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Speaker 1: in college debt. How. Doctor Scharmer will talk about the

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Speaker 1: ways in which essentially this has looked like entrapment for

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Speaker 1: low income students, students of color, and women. When we

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Speaker 1: look at the demographic breakdown of who those over forty

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Speaker 1: five million are, it is those students, right, So what

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Speaker 1: is this administration doing? Coming behind doctor Shermer will be

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Speaker 1: doctor John Oberg, who you may have heard of. He

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Speaker 1: is a whistleblower from the Department of Education and a

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Speaker 1: political scientist who recognize that the lenders were cheating. We're

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Speaker 1: cheating students looking for loans, right, We're cheating the Department

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Speaker 1: of Education in terms of the amount of money that

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Speaker 1: they were going to be giving back to them. The

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Speaker 1: Department of Education was complicit in what the lenders were

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Speaker 1: doing and then decided to turn the money that they

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Speaker 1: supposedly owed, right, that the lenders owed to the Department

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Speaker 1: of Education into additional loans to place the burden on

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Speaker 1: students as opposed to the lenders. And what doctor John

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Speaker 1: Oberg will tell us is that the Department of Education

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Speaker 1: is and was complicit in this action. Right, So, not

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Speaker 1: only are we kicking student loan relieved student debt down

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Speaker 1: the road, but we're also continuing the vicious cycle of

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Speaker 1: turning these students, as doctor Shermer says, into indentured servants. Right,

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Speaker 1: So what is this administration going to do and what

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Speaker 1: are the ideas that both doctor Shermer and doctor Orberg

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Speaker 1: will offer to us as ways out of this crisis, folks?

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Speaker 1: That is coming up next, folks. I am very excited

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Speaker 1: to welcome to wok F Daily for the very first

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Speaker 1: time doctor Elizabeth Tandy Shermer, who is the author of

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Speaker 1: Indentured Students How government guaranteed loans left generations drowning in

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Speaker 1: college debt. And by generations, we're talking about forty five

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Speaker 1: million Americans. Over forty five million Americans are affected by

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Speaker 1: the student loan debt crisis, which many have referred to

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Speaker 1: as being predatory, as it is women and people of

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Speaker 1: color who are the ones that are most disadvantaged by

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Speaker 1: this loan system and therefore caught in this And I

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Speaker 1: love that I love the title of your book, caught

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Speaker 1: in this indentured servitude once they finished school. So Dr Shermer,

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Speaker 1: let's just start off with, you know, tell us big picture.

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Speaker 1: How did we get here? How did we get into

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Speaker 1: a space where one point eight trilliant trillion dollars of

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Speaker 1: student loan debt is just hanging over the heads of

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Speaker 1: over forty five million Americans. It's a story of the

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Speaker 1: worst of intentions. And I know because the classic story

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Speaker 1: is like the best of intentions and was just so

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Speaker 1: well thought and as only recently, but actually we've been

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Speaker 1: having a problem with college affordability for more than a century.

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Speaker 1: And I think the real issue is that when I

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Speaker 1: say the worst of intentions, it was policymakers refusing to

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Speaker 1: actually invest in the public goods and public needs that

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Speaker 1: we need, like colleges and universities which provide the research

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Speaker 1: that we need for vaccines, also the social science research

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Speaker 1: about how to for example, roll them out, and then

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Speaker 1: also help fund the humanities which kept us sane and

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Speaker 1: gave us the critical reading and thinking skills to understand

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Speaker 1: how to get out of this crisis. And we need

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Speaker 1: an educated citizenry. We need that. But what we're going

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Speaker 1: to do is instead of actually investing in these institutions,

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Speaker 1: stop them from competing for tuition revenue, do own or

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Speaker 1: revenue all these other kinds of things. We are going

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Speaker 1: to create a really terrible financial product, because let's just

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Speaker 1: think this true. I am going to give you a

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Speaker 1: loan for something that I can't repossess and sell to

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Speaker 1: someone else. That's what a terrible idea. And even if

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Speaker 1: I could, you could never then and actually compete for

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Speaker 1: the job in order to get the money to ever

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Speaker 1: pay me back. And by the way, you're only collateral

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Speaker 1: for being forgetting this loan is being admitted to a

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Speaker 1: college university that needs your tuition revenue. So what a

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Speaker 1: shitty idea. And it was actually modeled on one of

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Speaker 1: the most on a very now infamous federal program, the

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Speaker 1: federal mortgage program, which we now know has disproportionately widened

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Speaker 1: racial and gender wealth gaps, period full stop. And that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what they did in the sixties. I know what

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Speaker 1: we'll do. Let's use that federal mortgage program and will

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Speaker 1: model it for something it is nothing like a mortgage,

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Speaker 1: a student loan, you know, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: just deeply troubles me right about about this entire system,

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Speaker 1: and it and you know, and it is it is

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Speaker 1: criminal to me, right, it's criminal to tell people, especially

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Speaker 1: those that are low income, that in order for you

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Speaker 1: to succeed in this capitalist, you know, factory that we

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Speaker 1: have created, that you need to go to college. Right.

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Speaker 1: I can remember from when I was in elementary school,

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Speaker 1: that was beat into everyone's head, right in my you know,

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Speaker 1: middle income suburban school district. Go to college, Go to college,

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Speaker 1: Go to college. No one ever talked about what the

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Speaker 1: burden was going to be after you left college. No

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Speaker 1: one ever talked about the fact that, you know, folks

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Speaker 1: weren't retiring at the rates that they were retiring at

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Speaker 1: that you were. Your first job at a college in

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Speaker 1: many places wasn't even going to cover right, the loan

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Speaker 1: that you took out. But we made it impossible right

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Speaker 1: for you to continue on with just a high school

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Speaker 1: education and a majority of places, so we made it

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Speaker 1: like a necessity to go to college, but didn't create

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Speaker 1: a system that would allow people to do that without

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Speaker 1: tying a noose around their necks. You're totally right, and

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Speaker 1: it is this faith that you know, what, if you

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Speaker 1: just go to college, you'll be able to compete for

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Speaker 1: the well paying work. That was the whole idea of

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Speaker 1: social ability, never actually tackling the problems within the labor market.

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Speaker 1: The reason that women for reason that women and people

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Speaker 1: of color have a harder time dealing with this is

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Speaker 1: one the financial aid officers. Despite what y'all might have

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Speaker 1: heard about affirmative action, they don't tend to get. They

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Speaker 1: don't tend to get the financial aid to stop them

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Speaker 1: from borrowing. More importantly, when they're actually out on the

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Speaker 1: labor market, they are still paid pennies on the dollar

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Speaker 1: two white men, period, full stop. And then in the

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Speaker 1: case of women, women women are the ones who are

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Speaker 1: more likely to be constantly moving in and out of

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Speaker 1: the labor market to provide unpaid care and to pause

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Speaker 1: those loans. This is what's unique about this moratorium period

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Speaker 1: right now, when you pause those loans. Sorry for the language,

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Speaker 1: The fucking interest is still accruing for women who are

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Speaker 1: doing the care that we need them to do for

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Speaker 1: both elderly librelats for children, and we're going to penalize

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Speaker 1: them by having more, by just indebting them further. And

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Speaker 1: I have to say, I'm so glad that you appreciated

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Speaker 1: the title indentured students because I got it. I got

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Speaker 1: used to get a lot of pushback from it, but

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Speaker 1: I always pointed out, but that's how people talk about it, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: talk about being indentured. And when we realize the racial

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Speaker 1: and gender aspects built into this program from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: why are we not saying that? Why are we not

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Speaker 1: talking about that and really listening to the folks who

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Speaker 1: are feeling the biggest burdens. Because it is a factor

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Speaker 1: of race and a factor of gender, period, you know.

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Speaker 1: And the reason why we don't talk about it is

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Speaker 1: for those very two reasons, right, Because it is a

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Speaker 1: factor of gender, and it's a factor of race, and

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Speaker 1: that we like to pretend in this country that those

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Speaker 1: things are accidental, right, like, oh, that you know that

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Speaker 1: they are not purposefully paving the road to hell for

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Speaker 1: those particular communities who are unable to come out of

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Speaker 1: pocket right to pay four tuitions that are fifty sixty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year, right because we also then we've

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Speaker 1: created an entire predatory system, so one for people who

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Speaker 1: cannot afford those fifty sixty thousand dollars price tags for university.

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Speaker 1: Then we created a for profit model, right, a predatory

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Speaker 1: college where you can go and get your certificate for

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Speaker 1: a quarter of that, but then that certificate is not real, right,

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Speaker 1: Like no one's accepting it. Right. It's like it's like

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Speaker 1: a series of Trump universities that we've created because we've

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Speaker 1: created a system that doesn't allow people to really access

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Speaker 1: right the educations that they need without all of these

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Speaker 1: strings being attached. Absolutely, And the one thing I'm going

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Speaker 1: to say here is that I think for me, and

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Speaker 1: this is it's again my brilliant friend kat Ramirez, he

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Speaker 1: teaches at University California, Santa Cruz. She has always said,

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Speaker 1: is that we in higher education, in the nonprofit sectors

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Speaker 1: are feeling what is happening in the K through twelve schools.

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Speaker 1: We are being demanded to do more with less, and

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Speaker 1: so yet I am getting right now in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a whip shop pivot to going virtual. But to

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Speaker 1: do that responsibly, to actually connect with people, to make

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Speaker 1: it accessible and meaningful, means completely overhauling everything to actually

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Speaker 1: meet the reality of students where they are, where the

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Speaker 1: majority of students are working more than part time. It's

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Speaker 1: bullshit to think that twenty five hours a week is

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Speaker 1: part times. That's more than forty hours a week. And

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Speaker 1: that's the reality of it. And so we are setting

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Speaker 1: both up these basic public goods. We have turned them

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Speaker 1: into private luxuries. And then those that are not the

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Speaker 1: wealthy ones that can actually provide it, we are actually

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Speaker 1: then damning them for not providing more with less. Why

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Speaker 1: is it, why is it that so many college universities

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Speaker 1: now have to have food banks. They are on the

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Speaker 1: front lines of a food housing insecurity because we have

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Speaker 1: so disinvested in the basic needs of the people of

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Speaker 1: this country, all of the people of this country. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea. Tell me more about these food banks

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Speaker 1: and why schools have to have them. I have not

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Speaker 1: heard this. This is new stop. It's food and housing insecurity, period,

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Speaker 1: full stop. And so I am sure that this is

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Speaker 1: still correct that University of California campus is each one

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Speaker 1: has a food bank. Here in the city of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: there is a I believe what they're doing now with

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Speaker 1: the city colleges is a food truck coming in for

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Speaker 1: a food bank. It's not a food truck is like

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Speaker 1: you know millennials having tacos. It is literally a pantry,

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Speaker 1: a food pantry, a mobile one coming to these city

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Speaker 1: colleges because on the front lines are these college universities

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Speaker 1: because so many people I'm thinking about what you said

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Speaker 1: about what you were told about you have to go

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Speaker 1: to college. You have to go to college. So many

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Speaker 1: people are trying because it's so tied to getting a

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Speaker 1: good job. But then there's so much inequality in this

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Speaker 1: country that is worsening, just exacerbated by the pandemic. And

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Speaker 1: if you're trying to do better and your first avenue college,

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Speaker 1: then we're meeting. Colleges are meeting at the front lines

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Speaker 1: the food and housing in security. At George Mason University

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Speaker 1: m a university near where I grew up, they have

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Speaker 1: many students. That is where my master's degree is from.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's amazing Nova. Yeah, so I'm familiar. Yeah, but no,

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Speaker 1: but we that is it is it is a it

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Speaker 1: is a it is a it is a serious issue

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing actually across the country. And this is

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Speaker 1: the incredible work of UM Temple's Hope Center, which did

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Speaker 1: the first big UM study to show that a third

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Speaker 1: of American college and university students, and this, by the way,

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Speaker 1: is pre pandemic, UM had food and housing insecurity, had

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Speaker 1: basic food and housing insecurity. And I think that that's

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Speaker 1: what we really need to talk about, is that we're

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Speaker 1: meeting not just young people, but people going back at

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Speaker 1: different points in their lives. In fact, I just got

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Speaker 1: an email from a person who's returning after twelve years

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Speaker 1: UM trying to restart her graduate program that this is

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Speaker 1: UM college universities, just like K through twelve schools, are

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Speaker 1: on the front lines in the case. If you're in

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Speaker 1: the city of Chicago, your listeners might know what we're

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Speaker 1: having a big standoff right now about going back safely.

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Speaker 1: But even before that, CPS schools were actually open during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic, not for construction, but actually I would walk

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Speaker 1: by them. There's a couple in my neighborhood to deliver meals.

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Speaker 1: So we have decided to put schools on the front

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Speaker 1: lines of dealing with food and security. I'm an educator.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the training to do that, and I

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Speaker 1: have tried to educate myself on the issue and learn

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Speaker 1: about the resources available. But we're asking colleges, universities K

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Speaker 1: through twelve schools to do more with less and to

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Speaker 1: be on the front lines of crisises. Before we even

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Speaker 1: had this pandemic. Let me switch gears for a moment

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Speaker 1: to talk about this current administration and what it was

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Speaker 1: that they said that they were going to do with

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Speaker 1: regard to the student loan debt crisis. And what we

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Speaker 1: have seen right by of the pandemic is the can

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Speaker 1: being kicked down the road. We'll just continue to pause, right,

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Speaker 1: We'll continue to press pause, but we won't try and

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Speaker 1: actually stop or fix the problem um with you know you,

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Speaker 1: we'll pause you paying back. But like you said, the

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Speaker 1: interest is still occurring. It's still the interest right now

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Speaker 1: is not accruing the interest is That's what that is,

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Speaker 1: what's really important right now it's happening. Is this is

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Speaker 1: historic because they they they hit pause on the interest

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Speaker 1: as well, for sure. But and that's that not everyone

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Speaker 1: qualifies for that. That's the thing. There's there's some federal

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Speaker 1: loans that don't qualify for this pause, and then the

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Speaker 1: private loans don't. So, I mean, my my feeling is,

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Speaker 1: you know why if this is a bipartisan issue, and

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Speaker 1: let me just pretend right now that we have an

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Speaker 1: actual two party system, Let's just pretend that Republicans care

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Speaker 1: um knowing that they don't. But there have been bipartisan

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Speaker 1: solutions that have been put together right to deal with

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Speaker 1: this crisis, and yet nothing has happened. My feeling, because

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Speaker 1: I'm a cynic but also a realist, is the fact that, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's because of who it's affecting, the same reason why

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Speaker 1: we wanted to open up, you know, the economies of

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Speaker 1: various states at the height of the first wave of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic because it was only people of color and

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Speaker 1: women that were that were being affected. It wasn't anybody else.

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Speaker 1: So you know, go with God, why is this stuck?

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Speaker 1: Why are we stuck here knowing that this is a

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Speaker 1: major major problem and that is going to have legs

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Speaker 1: that affect all all industries right, all areas of our lives. Well,

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Speaker 1: so the first thing is, like, I do actually think

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Speaker 1: the people empower many of them do not have to borrow.

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Speaker 1: If seventy of students now need to borrow and families

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Speaker 1: need to borrow, there is that top thirty percent. And

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Speaker 1: I think from my perspective of someone who's trying to

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Speaker 1: get this book published, it was interesting to me that

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Speaker 1: a lot of the publishers they didn't ever have to borrow, right,

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Speaker 1: And so that's who's at the helm, it's a pipeline thing.

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Speaker 1: But then once I got into, once I got into

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Speaker 1: the folks who are actually helping me with like actually

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Speaker 1: getting the book ready to the editors and things like that,

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Speaker 1: they all had to borrow. And I think it's a

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Speaker 1: really interesting thing about who the gatekeepers at the top

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Speaker 1: actually are. But I think the other thing I think

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Speaker 1: that's really important is that I completely agree with you.

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Speaker 1: What's really I always talked about this the Indentured Students book,

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Speaker 1: which is everyone wanted a book about a bunch of big,

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Speaker 1: bad bankers. Well, actually, the banking industry actually initially fought

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Speaker 1: the federal loan program. They didn't want it. They didn't

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Speaker 1: want besides the fact that it's a terrible investment, they

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Speaker 1: didn't want more expansion of federal power. And it was

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Speaker 1: a bipartisan doubling down on creative financing as opposed to

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Speaker 1: investing in the American people in the nineteen sixties. We're

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Speaker 1: just going to give them another financial product. We didn't

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Speaker 1: give them housing the thirties. We're going to give them

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Speaker 1: a financial product we didn't give that. We actually didn't

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Speaker 1: give them schooling in the sixties. We're going to give

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Speaker 1: them a financial product to creatively pay for it. And

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Speaker 1: I think for me is that when you actually look

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Speaker 1: at it is we are dealing with a twenty first

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Speaker 1: century democracy with real ideas about you know, majority rule

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Speaker 1: and things like that, based on an eighteenth century constitution

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Speaker 1: that has been so supported and so to me, to

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Speaker 1: be honest, if I could only have one thing, like

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Speaker 1: I had a magical ferry, and I could have one thing,

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Speaker 1: I would actually start to get to because the student

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Speaker 1: deck crisis is just an example of many crisises of

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Speaker 1: Americans having to pay out a pocket for basic goods.

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Speaker 1: I would start with voting rights. And I mean, actually

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Speaker 1: beyond what's going on right now and they're fighting about

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Speaker 1: in the House and the Senate, I would why is

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Speaker 1: it that we only have four hundred and thirty five

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Speaker 1: representatives in Congress that was set in the late twenties.

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Speaker 1: You know, the country is lot bigger right now. It's

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Speaker 1: just a lot bigger right now. We do not have

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Speaker 1: real representation, real representation dealing with this the undemocratic aspects

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Speaker 1: baked into a constitution written more than two hundred years ago.

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Speaker 1: We are a twenty first century democracy that isn't good

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Speaker 1: enough anymore. And if we want to start with this

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Speaker 1: crisis and everything else that's intertwined with it, like a

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Speaker 1: healthcare crisis, all these things, it's got to start actually

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Speaker 1: with having a really functioning democracy, you know, everything to

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Speaker 1: in everything needs to start with the foundation of a

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Speaker 1: functional and actually representative democracy, right, which, if we are

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Speaker 1: honest with ourselves, to your point, we've actually never had, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: particular and you know, particularly somebody like myself who is

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Speaker 1: at the intersection of multiple marginalized communities, as a black woman,

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Speaker 1: as a queer woman, you know, as a as a

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Speaker 1: child of immigrants, Like there is just there. There has

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Speaker 1: never been equity in that way. But we also have

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Speaker 1: to be honest about the fact that it was set

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Speaker 1: up like that, right, Like it is it is succeeding

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Speaker 1: in who it was choosing to keep out, right, because

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Speaker 1: you need in order to have a functional pitalist society,

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Speaker 1: somebody needs to be on the bottom, right, Like that's

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Speaker 1: that's how you want to talk about, like the actual

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Speaker 1: pyramid scheme, like it's capitalism, right, and who is on

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Speaker 1: the bottom and who and why you need to stay

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Speaker 1: there in order to aid those at the top. Please

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Speaker 1: go ahead, And what I had to be what I like,

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Speaker 1: what I think is really important to remember when we

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Speaker 1: talk about the origins of all this, the real origins

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Speaker 1: of the Guaranteed Student Loan program hidden and seemingly hidden

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Speaker 1: in that like mid nineteen sixties a celebrated Higher Education Act.

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Speaker 1: It's called the Guaranteed Student Loan Program. But the guarantee

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Speaker 1: was not for the students that they not that they

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Speaker 1: would get admitted, not that they would actually finish. The

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Speaker 1: guarantee was not for the schools if they would actually

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Speaker 1: be able to expand and meet public demand and new

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Speaker 1: expectations for all their many uses. The guarantee was that

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Speaker 1: bankers would be repaid on one of the worst financial

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Speaker 1: products you could ever come with. That's what it always

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Speaker 1: comes down to, and that was built into that was

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Speaker 1: modeled off of the guarantee in the thirties for housing.

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Speaker 1: The guarantee for the federal mortgage program was bankers would

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Speaker 1: be repaid for giving out mortgages. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: we're going to construct this entire program to make it

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Speaker 1: extremely hard for people of color and women to actually

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Speaker 1: get a mortgage. There we go. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, and I say this all the

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Speaker 1: time on woke AF It's like the more that I know,

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Speaker 1: the angry or I become, and if you know me,

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Speaker 1: then you know that there is really just no bottom

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Speaker 1: to my rage. But it is so what pisses me

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Speaker 1: off the most is that these dots are not connected. Right.

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Speaker 1: What pisses me off the most is that we continue

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Speaker 1: to look for band aid fixes for systemic problems that

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Speaker 1: were created on purpose. Right, And I yes, and I

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Speaker 1: also think too, Yes, I'm tired of band aids. You're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. That's where I was like, you want to

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Speaker 1: go for the juggler, Let's go to voting. Let's go

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Speaker 1: to voting and do that. But then also I think

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Speaker 1: we have to look at the language because they're pretty

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Speaker 1: freaking honestness, the guarantee student loan porker, I mean, it

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Speaker 1: was tricky who actually is getting as guaranteed? But I

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Speaker 1: also the one I don't like right now is the

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Speaker 1: public sector loan forgiveness. No one need has done anything

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Speaker 1: that needs to be forgiven. No person in this country

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Speaker 1: who has student debt needs to be forgiven for the

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Speaker 1: debt that they incurred for the education that we need

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Speaker 1: them to have. As a twenty first century democracy right,

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Speaker 1: not just for our workforce, but just to actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: keep going. And then also they don't need any forgiveness

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Speaker 1: for trying to do that for themselves. And I think

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is a real

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Speaker 1: tragedy is that we've made it so much about the

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Speaker 1: cost of this, how you're going to pay that back.

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Speaker 1: We don't actually give those who cannot easily afford to

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Speaker 1: go to college, and that's the majority of Americans now.

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Speaker 1: We haven't give them the chance to actually go to

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Speaker 1: college and explore what they might be interested in. We've

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Speaker 1: just made it about the paycheck. And it's just such

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Speaker 1: so corrosive, because is there any wonder why we are

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Speaker 1: losing our arts and humanities right now because we've put

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Speaker 1: such a massive price tech and it just keeps the

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Speaker 1: arts and humanities the purview of a white, wealthy elite period,

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Speaker 1: you know, and particularly particularly at a time when you

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Speaker 1: know it's it's it's always a student of history, right,

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Speaker 1: You're going back in time and you're thinking about these

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Speaker 1: these moments in our civilization where things got incredibly dark, right,

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Speaker 1: and then what comes out, right, it is art is

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Speaker 1: beauty is questioning, right, so that we are not consistently

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Speaker 1: moving through these cycles. And it is not lost on

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Speaker 1: me that those are the first things to go right,

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Speaker 1: because we don't want I think that what we need

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Speaker 1: to recognize as this nation is that we don't want

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Speaker 1: an educated citizenury because if you look at our K

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Speaker 1: through twelve curriculum, if you look at the way that

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Speaker 1: you have to buy into a higher education, right, we

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Speaker 1: don't want that. Because if we actually wanted our citizens

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Speaker 1: to be educated, then we would educate them in a

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Speaker 1: way that functions with the now, not you know what

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Speaker 1: was we wouldn't still be operating on an agrarian system

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Speaker 1: in our K through twelve. We would have adapted, like

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Speaker 1: you know, year round school. We would have expansive curriculum

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Speaker 1: that isn't you know, electives as like stem or electives

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Speaker 1: as art. It would be baked in to our society

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Speaker 1: and we would listen to those experts. But the reality

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Speaker 1: is is that capitalism thrives on the lack of knowledge.

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Speaker 1: We need cogs in a machine in order for that

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Speaker 1: to function. Right, Yes, I completely agree with you, and

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Speaker 1: especially since for me, I mean I when I some

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Speaker 1: folks in the education departments, by an inscription department, I've

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Speaker 1: actually read my book and we were talking about it

432
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: and I was like, you know, we have to think

433
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: about how incredibly complex these financial products are. And one

434
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: of the things that I do when I teach the

435
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: US History Survey, the first thing I do is I

436
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: ask my students, hey, do you live in a union

437
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: of states or a nation of people? And they all

438
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: first day or like nation of people? It's like, really,

439
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: show me, show me your id. Oh is it a state? Ide?

440
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: Are you actually registered to vote it a state? Not

441
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: actually as a US citizen. And then I show them

442
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: how I'm actually to show them how to teach this.

443
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: How you teach the class as I showed them a

444
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: pay stub and I was like, so, tell me on

445
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: first day, what are all these deductions? What is this

446
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: social security thing? Whendn't that get pass Why did that

447
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: get passed? And in most classes they might know it's

448
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: something there's money for old people, but they have no

449
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 1: idea about all the other kinds of things. So it's like, well,

450
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: this is citizenship on the page, but these are if

451
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: you look at that pay stub, that's just a bunch

452
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: of taxes and financial products. Because on your pay stub

453
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: is probably deductions from your employer if you're lucky to

454
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: have it for your healthcare and all this other kind

455
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: of stuff, and thinking about your your point about like

456
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: robbing us of these basic rights which for some reason

457
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: are still high to where we're working in the labor

458
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: market in this country as opposed to just the fact

459
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: that we are here being, you know, contributing. The thing

460
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: is I end the class by showing them the ten

461
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: ninety nine that independent contractors get and there's no deductions,

462
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: there's nothing on that for their basic rights and needs

463
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: because we're so still back there that you have to

464
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: work for your worth as opposed to recognizing the worth

465
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: of all of us. Is it any wonder that this

466
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: again is disproportionately leaving a lack of citizenship for those

467
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: who don't have the hardest time getting good work that

468
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: is steadily disappearing. What is the fix, doctor ship No, No, no.

469
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: And I say that knowing that the problem is so

470
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: complex because it was created to be right that if

471
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: you were to actually pull the thread, then the whole

472
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: thing would fall apart. But I think that there are

473
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: some things that have been highlighted throughout the pandemic over

474
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: the last two years, which is remote learning right has

475
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: affected a lot of universities where people are just like,

476
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: so why am I paying this high bill when I

477
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: could be online and probably getting you know, a similar edge,

478
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: like why why am I paying for my kid? Or

479
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: them taking out strapping themselves with loans when you could

480
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: go to state school? Right if we're not going to

481
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: go back, and like there are there are all of

482
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: these things that I think we're highlighted. So I just

483
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: want to hear from you, well I do so for me,

484
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: my thought is that, like, so I will say that

485
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: I think the future is hybrid, and so as a historian,

486
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, like, you know, no one can predict

487
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: the future. But what we do know is that moments

488
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: of crisis tend to accelerate. Was already happening. There wasn't

489
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: you know, dabbling in just doing completely online. But that's

490
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: a lot of the predatory for profits. But hybrid where

491
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: I now actually record my lectures and so when I'm

492
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: actually in the classroom with students, I'm spending it doing

493
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: much more interactive connections with them. It's a better learning

494
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: environment for them. There's no reason for me to just

495
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: lecture at a bunch of students. I use other kinds

496
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: of hybrid technologies as well, so to actually have a

497
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: more meaningful experience for what we're going to do online

498
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: and what we're going to do when we're lucky enough

499
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: to be able to come in person. It tends to

500
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: have better outcomes. The second thing, though, is but actually

501
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: in terms of what and I love what you brought

502
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: about the state schools, state schools are also pretty unaffordable

503
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: right now too. And if again, if that now you're

504
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: letting me have a ferry that is going to give

505
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: me whatever I want. So FIRSTUS voting rights versus voting

506
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: rights real expansive ideas about voting rights. The second is

507
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: actually having genuinely tuition free public options all freaking four years.

508
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: And I think that that's really important, and that's the

509
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: College for All Act and what that would do. And

510
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: this I hesitate to say this because it does reach

511
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: back to an American tradition of having what we call

512
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: the public competitor. That's actually how we got affordable utilities

513
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: was having the Tennessee Valley Authority. It actually had this

514
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: public competitor for cheap electricity. It actually had also good

515
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: jobs with it, better jobs with it, and then it

516
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: just created this pressure across the country to lower the

517
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: rates of the utilities and literally started turning lights on

518
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: in rural communities and urban communities in nineteen thirties. Huge difference.

519
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: But that was what was supposed to be a part

520
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: of Obamacare. We were supposed to have that public option,

521
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: to have that public competitor to work in there to

522
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: police that. Now, obviously, in the case of healthcare better,

523
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: it would be to actually have healthcare, not health insurance.

524
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: That's the other big thing I tell my Soud's like,

525
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: have you noticed this, It's actually just insurance that's a

526
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: financial product. It's actually not care. I just want you

527
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: to know that. But I think that having genuinely robustly funded,

528
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: tuition free public options would do a lot. Now, the

529
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: only thing we got with the Biden administration's agenda They're

530
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 1: Build Back Better agenda was and it was interesting, it

531
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: was robustly funded community colleges. So you would have done

532
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: your first you had the opportunity to your is two

533
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: years for free, a competitive pressure. It's not perfect, it's

534
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: not what we should By the way, that was an

535
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: idea of seventy five years ago, and I was like,

536
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: Oh you guys, you're just now trying that again. It's

537
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: actually one of my favorite reports. It's it's there's a

538
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: commission report. They're like, we're gonna have we're gonna build

539
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: community colleges across the country. They're going to be free,

540
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: and also we're going to make them free and put

541
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: them in all sorts of different communities to deal with

542
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: the systemic racial, religious, and gender inequality across the country.

543
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: Like they like, literally residential report, this is what we're

544
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: gonna do with nowhere. Hold your surprise. Smaller fixes that

545
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: And I hate to see this because you're so right.

546
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: We don't need a band aid talking understanding that everyone

547
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: who that essential workers and so many people were shown

548
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: to be essential during this pandemic. They need to be

549
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: a part of the debt cancellation programs called public service

550
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: low and forgiveness. Put them in there. They've proved it.

551
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: Governor get Fretchen Whitmore and in Michigan is starting to

552
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: acknowledge that these folks actually need to be acknowledged and

553
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: genuinely rewarded for their service. And then another temporary fix

554
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: is this big fight to get to something really meaningful,

555
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: a meaningful systemic change, not just to reform, a change

556
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: the bankruptcy. Let student debt be discharged during bankruptcy. I mean,

557
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: I hate to do that because it's giving into it,

558
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: but if we can just give some relief now and

559
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: also obviously talking about some really now, there are demands.

560
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: In the Democratic primaries, we had two candidates who wanted

561
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: mass cancelation. Again, not forgiveness. No one did anything wrong here,

562
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: mass cancelation. It does not sound like the Biden administration

563
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: is going to do that. But I want to give

564
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: credit to the many people who are continuing to hammer him,

565
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: both activists, both education experts, activists, education experts, but also

566
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: the progressive Democrats and Congress are doing it. To just

567
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: keep hammering it and keep this issue alive because it

568
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: really matters. And so there's a bunch of different things

569
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: trying to get to what really needs to be an

570
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: overhaul about how we fund this basic public good to

571
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: stop it from being a private luxury. Oh, doctor Sherman,

572
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: I could talk to you forever too, you know, because

573
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: this this this issue is just so deep and it

574
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: cuts through so many different things that are fundamentally wrong.

575
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: Um tell us about the conversation that you are going

576
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 1: to be moderating towards the end of this week, and

577
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: how folks can connect and learn and learn more. It's

578
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: a it's a very exciting panel that you're that you're

579
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: going to be by rating. I'm really excited about it too.

580
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: So it's the University of Southern California has an institute

581
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: and we are going to show clips on the next

582
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: episode of a new documentary that is coming out. It's

583
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: a six part documentary cult Um Um, and we're going

584
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: to show clips from that. These are the clips that

585
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: highlight the whistleblower, John Oberg, who was in the in

586
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: the Department of Education, blowing the whistle on these predatory practices.

587
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: But on the panel as we talk about these issues

588
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: about what to do now to go when the moratorium

589
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: likely ends in May, is going to be some amazing activists,

590
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: the founder of Student Loan Justice Alan and then another

591
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: incredible actist out of California, Kiomi. And then we also

592
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: have two education experts Berkeley Law who's been at the

593
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: forefront of actually talking about the student loan law and

594
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,959
Speaker 1: that's Jonathan. And then we have Mitchell Stevens up at

595
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: Stanford about the Pathways Lab I'll be on there too,

596
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: and I think it's going to be a really great

597
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: event and your audience can find out more all the

598
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: details we're looking at the past the hopefully they gave

599
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: you a link that you can put in the show

600
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: notes and we'll do that. And so that is Thursday

601
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: at seven. I only know because of Central time, because

602
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: I can never do the math in my head. I've

603
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: lived in so many different times zones. Seven o'clock Central,

604
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: which I'm nine nine percent sure is five pm Specific time,

605
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: eight pm Eastern time. Yeah. I really hope all of

606
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: your viewers will will will zoom into it. And where

607
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 1: is the So the documentary, folks is entitled Scared to Debt,

608
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: which I think is also a very good title, Scared

609
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: to Debt? Um, where is the docuseries? I believe Um

610
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: there's I go to the Scared to Debt and they'll

611
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: help it different. I think they're a different place. Well,

612
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: I think I think one of the episodes is on

613
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: is still online for sure, And it didn't win Okay,

614
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: the great episode did win some awards for sure. Okay. Awesome, Uh,

615
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 1: Doctor Elizabeth Tandy Shermott, thank you so much for making

616
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: the time to join woka at daily, and I hope

617
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: that you will come back to talk to us more

618
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: about an issue that doesn't seem to be going anywhere

619
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: anytime soon. I would love to thank you so much

620
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: for inviting me. I really appreciate it, folks. I am

621
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: very excited to welcome to okay F for the very

622
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: first time doctor John Oberg, who's a political scientist and

623
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: whistleblower at the Department of Education raising the alarms with

624
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: regard to how different lenders were in fact gouging the

625
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: Department of Education of funds as it pertains to student

626
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: debt and payback of those loans. John, thank you so

627
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: much for making the time to join woke F. I

628
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: will say that this is an issue that I think

629
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: is not covered enough, and I think that when we

630
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: talk about the student debt crisis, we oftentimes are not

631
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: putting a human face to it and we're not walking

632
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: through all of the ways in which forty over forty

633
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: five million Americans in this country are affected by this debt.

634
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: So I want to open up with asking you what

635
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: made you make the decision to blow the whistle at

636
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: the Department of Education, What was occurring at that time, yes,

637
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: happy to answer that question. Before I do, let me

638
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: say I agree with you entirely that more focus needs

639
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: to be on a lot of these issues surrounding student

640
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: loan debt and the amazing amount that has been accumulated.

641
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: Too few people have asked, how did this happen? Really?

642
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: What was behind it? How could we wind up with

643
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: this situation which has been called a national catastrophe in

644
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: a wonderful book by Josh Mitchell and a wonderful book

645
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: by doctor Shermer calling it indentured students. To answer your

646
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 1: question about that, about why I decided to become a whistleblower,

647
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: I was an lay in the Department of Education's Research office.

648
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: I had previously been in the Office of Legislation and

649
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: Congressional Affairs, and I had handled a lot of the

650
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: legislation between the Department and the Congress as the liaison person.

651
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: So I was very familiar with the statutes and the

652
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: laws and so on. I was curious in two thousand

653
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: starting in two thousand three, as to what happened with

654
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: one particular issue that I had been so involved in legislatively,

655
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: and that was trying to phase out an excessive subsidy

656
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: that existed for lenders going all the way back to

657
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty and the agreement that we reached with the

658
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: Congress in the nineteen ninety eight reauthorization of the Higher

659
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: Education Acts, and oh, that will be phased out. It'll

660
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: be gone soon because all those old loans will have

661
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: been paid off. To my amazement, when I started to

662
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: check it, I found that the amount was growing and

663
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: that essentially lenders were claiming from taxpayers astounding amounts which

664
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: I started to project would be in the billions of dollars.

665
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: And this I thought was inappropriate. It was actually fraudulent.

666
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: I brought it to the attention of the Department. I

667
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: was told, no, you're not supposed to look into that.

668
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: That's not something that we want any attention to. I

669
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: brought the situation to the attention of the Inspector General.

670
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: I went to my office office of Ethics at the

671
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 1: Department and said, may I do analysis on my own

672
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: if the department won't let me do it, and bring

673
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: my work to the attention of the General Accounting Office.

674
00:38:52,719 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: The Government Accountability Office is called now and so soon

675
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: got involved and cut off part of the part part

676
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: of the excess subsidies. So we capped at it probably

677
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: close to a billion dollars and I retired from the

678
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: Department of Education. But then Margaret Spellings, the secretary, said, oh, yes,

679
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: that was illegal, but we're not going to ask for

680
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: any of the money back. Why at that time, I

681
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: said no, I'm in a position then under the law

682
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: in order to file a suit so called keytam that

683
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: is a whistleblower suit against on behalf of the United States,

684
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: in order to recover the funds. I spent an eleven

685
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: years trying to recover the funds, and we had quite

686
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: a bit of success against several of the lenders. Why

687
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: were why was the response from the secretary that they

688
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: were not going to try and get funds that were

689
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: rightly there's back? Why why would the reaction be just

690
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: leave it alone. Well, the answer lies in the fact

691
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: that the department was complicit. Many people in the department

692
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: had come out of the lenders and they wanted the money. Uh.

693
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: They initially were complicit in setting up the false claims,

694
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: and they were still very much in power when when

695
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: the time came to ask for the money back, some

696
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: of the lenders actually thought they would They were going

697
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: to have to pay the money back because they didn't

698
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: think it was legal in the first place, and it

699
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: had actually escrowed funds to do so. But Secretary Spellings

700
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: did not ask, and I think that is part of

701
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: the part of the part of the question is how

702
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: did this happen? Is to look at who was in

703
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: the department at the time, who was calling the shots,

704
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: who was making the decisions. We have, of course, from

705
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: discovery in my lawsuit, many documents that show the emails

706
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: both internally in the in the in the lenders who

707
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: were making these false claims, and between them as to

708
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: how they were doing it, why they were doing it.

709
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: And then of course, of course we also have considerable

710
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: evidence after this became public about how these funds were

711
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: then turned into loans that should never have been made

712
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: to students in order to burden We have attorneys attorney

713
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: general report in Iowa in two thousand and eight. We

714
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 1: have an auditor general in Pennsylvania in two thousand and

715
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: seven who said the lender there had lost sight of

716
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: its mission. We have cases in Kentucky, we have all

717
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: over the country, and it's important, I think, to be

718
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: able somehow to draw a straight line from these illegal

719
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: claims and so on to the current crisis that we

720
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: have in the country. So essentially, the loss that the

721
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: Department of Education and I put that in quotations, the

722
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: loss meaning the money that the lenders then took, they

723
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: decided to create new loans to essentially put place that

724
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: burden of recouping of those lost funds on potential students.

725
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: Am I hearing that right? Yes, they used they used

726
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: the excess funds. For example in Iowa, there they had

727
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: claimed approximately fifty eight million illegally. That was determined to

728
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: have been an illegal claim. And then along comes the

729
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: the Attorney General of Iowa a few years later and

730
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: is able to say, look at what Iowa Student Loan

731
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 1: has been doing. It has been loading Iowa students up

732
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: with debt that they really shouldn't have. And that's an

733
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 1: important that's an important line to draw, I think between

734
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: the illegal the complicity of the Department of Education in

735
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: allowing the lenders to do this, not getting the money back,

736
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: the money then being used inappropriately in order to increase

737
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: the debt burden of the borrowers. So, John, here we

738
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: are where we have an administration that campaigned on essentially

739
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: relieving this debt for over forty five million Americans. One

740
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: point eight I believe one point eight trillion dollars in

741
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: debt is held by over forty five million America has.

742
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: And you know, we are watching because of the COVID

743
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 1: nineteen cross crisis, some pause that is happening in payback.

744
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: But isn't that essentially just kicking the can down the road?

745
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: What do you see this administration doing or that is

746
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: going to tackle this outsized crisis. Well that's a terribly

747
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: good question, and a lot of people are are pondering

748
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: exactly what should happen. And you framed it, You framed

749
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: it correctly. These pauses are kicking the can down the road.

750
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: They are, however, very valuable because a lot of people

751
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: are just not in the position right now to resume repayment,

752
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: and it I think it would be unconscionable to try

753
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: to force them into repayment, and at least the Biden

754
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: administration twice, I believe his as delayed that. As to

755
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: what else they are going to do, let me give

756
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: some credit, and I hope it's a harbinger of what

757
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: they're going to do, because they have done some good things.

758
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: They have come in and straightened out some of the

759
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: messes that were left from decades past, not just the

760
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: previous administration, but many, many previous problems. The so called

761
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: borrower defense issue. They did a good, pretty good job

762
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: on that. On permanent disability students and so on, and

763
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: veterans and so on. They came in and straightened that

764
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: out and aggressively tried to get to cancelation for those

765
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: totally and permanently disabled that had a legal right to

766
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: loan cancelation. The Biden administration came in and looked at

767
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which it had been

768
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: run into the ground totally by a lender and servicer

769
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: that was one of the defendants in my lawsuits, so

770
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: I knew all about it. They should never have gotten

771
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: the contract. But the Biden administration came in and used

772
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: authority under the so called Heroes Act going back to

773
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: almost two decades in order to straighten that out. So

774
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: those are indicators that this administration can do the right thing.

775
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: The big question now is what is the appropriate response

776
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: to the whole to the whole shebang, the big picture

777
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: at one point eight trillion. They did pretty well on

778
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: these others, and I would like to see them be

779
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: aggressive in addressing this. I have been among those who

780
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: has looked at the secretary's authority in order to address

781
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: some very significant broad cancelation. It's called the Compromise and

782
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: Settlement Provision of the law, and I have seen it used.

783
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: I've been in the room when it has been used

784
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: over the decades. I know the history of that particularly,

785
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: and I have a broad interpretation of that. There is

786
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: a general Counsel Officer. General Counsel is given an opinion

787
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: to the Secretary and to the White House about the

788
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: powers of the Secretary to cancel loan short of anything

789
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: else from Congress. However, that has been redacted, so the

790
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 1: public doesn't know what's in there. I think that's probably

791
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: what is in there is a secretary has a lot

792
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: of authority. The one thing that no one seems to

793
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: be talking about very much, if at all, and why

794
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: to discuss it with you is I think not only

795
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: does the Secretary have the power under this provision, but

796
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: the Secretary has an obligation to act in order to

797
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: square things up with many borrowers who have been misled

798
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: through no fault of their own because of the complicity

799
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: of the Department of education itself in driving up this debt.

800
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: A lot of borrowers are in trouble. They are in default,

801
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: they're behind on their payments. It's astounding to people when

802
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: they learn that many borrowers have actually paid off principle

803
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: and interest and more, but they still have a huge

804
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: debt in front of them. Why is that, Well, there

805
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: are fees, and there are penalties, and there's a crude interest,

806
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: and there's capitalized interest in the exists, and there's that,

807
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: and many of the borrowers never had the chance to say,

808
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: I didn't sign up for that. The service the servicer

809
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: has led me astray with bad information as to what

810
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: my choices were, as to how to get out of default,

811
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: as to how to get out of trouble if I

812
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: lost my job. There's and there's plenty of evidence to

813
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: show that the servicing has been terrible. I believe the

814
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: Secretary has an obligation, because of the Complicity Department and

815
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: the lack of supervision of the of the servicers, to

816
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: take some bold action under the Compromise and Settlement provision

817
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: of the law. What would it look like? Can you

818
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: can you paint a picture for us, John? What would

819
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: it look like if the Secretary, believing that they have

820
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: the authority, if they were to wipe out right as

821
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: people are saying, wipe out the one point eight trillion

822
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: dollars worth a debt, what does that look like? What beens?

823
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: What happens to lenders, what happens to the department, what

824
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: happens to those with the loans. Well, there are several

825
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: proposals out there, and as I say, I am in

826
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: favor of doing something bolder rather than weaker on this.

827
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: There is, of course the idea of just canceling at all.

828
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: There is the idea that's been advanced by several people

829
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: of doing fifty thousand. There's the idea of doing ten

830
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: thousand that was advanced as a campaign issue by President

831
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: Biden himself. There many of these have run into some

832
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: criticism because of equity issues, or this is a wrong approach.

833
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: There ought to be another one, and I'm not familiar

834
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: with all of them, but there have been some rather

835
00:50:53,680 --> 00:51:00,839
Speaker 1: inventive alternatives that have been discussed, one of which has

836
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: intrigued me. Some think tank has come up with the

837
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: idea of a retroactive pell grant. If pell grants had

838
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: been what they were supposed to and had been applied

839
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: to a student's loan package in the first place, they

840
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had to borrow so much. And if you

841
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: were to go back in and apply the pel eligibility

842
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 1: to the outstanding debt. Now I don't have the numbers,

843
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: but I think that would that would be a targeted approach.

844
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: People couldn't criticize the approach on that, and it might

845
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: do an awful lot for a lot of borrowers who

846
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: are struggling because they were low income in the first place.

847
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: Right Another thing that I have thrown out, and some

848
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: people have said, well, yes, that's a good idea, would

849
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: be for everybody who is still in debt who has

850
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: paid principal plus the cost of money, cancel those debts.

851
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: That would I don't know exactly how many people would

852
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: be affected by that, but it would be a very

853
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: significant number. And it would also help the department right

854
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: now because you have two of these servicers who are

855
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: going out of business simply because they are so fraught

856
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: with problems that they no longer can comply with the

857
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: government requirements on it, and millions of accounts have to

858
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: be moved from those servicers to other servicers. Unfortunately, there

859
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: is not a long line along other servicers who may

860
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 1: be doing who may be able to do a good

861
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: job on that. And so it's quite it's quite a

862
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: logistical undertaking. If a lot of loans could be canceled

863
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: right now so they didn't have to be transferred, that

864
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: would be in the interest of everybody. That would be

865
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: an interest of taxpayers, of the Department of Education, of

866
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: the borrowers, of of the servicers who might be overwhelmed.

867
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 1: So that's another kind of an alternative. I don't have

868
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: all the alternatives at at my disposal. All I can

869
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: say is I believe it's an obligation of the Secretary

870
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: of Education to take bold action in order to address

871
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 1: the crisis. Um, John, you know what troubles me to

872
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: is the constant conversation that we have in this country

873
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: right about the shrinking middle class, about low income folks,

874
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: about those that we deemed, you know, in twenty twenty

875
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: as essential workers, right, and then others that were able

876
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: to stay within the confines of their homes, uh and

877
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: and and work right. And what I what I look

878
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: at this debt crisis. I think of the ways that

879
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: people are locked into jobs and careers that they don't want.

880
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 1: How do you think just for the just for the

881
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: sheer ability to be able to offer a couple one

882
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: hundred dollars a month to pay off this debt that

883
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: was supposed to give them greater opportunity and privilege right

884
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 1: in our in our society, how do you think that

885
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: this debt, like this, this shackle really does go to

886
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: affect our society and affect our economy. I know that

887
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: you're not an economist, but like I do want your

888
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: thoughts on that. Well. I think some good demographic analyzes

889
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: would shed a lot of light on the situation you

890
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: just described. Yes, a lot of people have been shackled

891
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 1: to jobs they don't really want because of student loan debt.

892
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: Some of those might be the lucky ones. Some people

893
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: have actually been burdened with debt without any college completion

894
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: and credential that helped them get a job to start with,

895
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: and so they may be in dire trouble. We also

896
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: should look at the demographics of this as to who

897
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: who really makes up this one point eight trillion dollars

898
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: and is there I did analysis back in two thousand

899
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: and three and published a working paper that showed that

900
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,240
Speaker 1: we were really disadvantaging in the way we put student

901
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 1: loan packages together the low income and particularly the black

902
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 1: low income. So I think that a lot of work

903
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: has to be done, and I would hope that that

904
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: work is being done right now, to look at all

905
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: the categories of people who are in trouble, to look

906
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: at the obligation of the secretary to address them, because

907
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: a lot of this has been known for a long

908
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: time and there should be numbers on them, and somehow

909
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 1: Taylor the response to those demographics. Yeah, you know, John,

910
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: I just want to say, and I'm certain that you've

911
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: probably received this so many times over, but thank you

912
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: so much for your outspokenness right to offer the truth

913
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: at a time when that is something that is waning.

914
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: To say that people are being squeezed out of the

915
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: very little that they have, and what are we doing

916
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: about that? Why are we why is the department being

917
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: complicit in that? And then out of one instance, talking

918
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,760
Speaker 1: about creating a robust middle class when they are actually

919
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: complicit in the ways in which people stay trapped in

920
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: a low incommon in poverty because of debt. So I

921
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,279
Speaker 1: really appreciate the work that you continue to do on

922
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: this crisis. Can you offer folks, You're going to be

923
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: on a panel with our guests that we also had

924
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: on doctor Shermer that is going to be looking at

925
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: the documentary Scared to Debt. That is that is happening

926
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: five pm? What is at five pm Pacific time? Can

927
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit more about this panel

928
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:40,439
Speaker 1: and why it's important. Yes, I'm eager to be on

929
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: this panel because I'm a big admirer of Professor Shermer's

930
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: book about student loans and how we got into trouble

931
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: on this. We're going to have a panel that looks

932
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: at Mike Comoin's film Scared to Debt, and I believe

933
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: this is the second installment, a second chapter of his film.

934
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: We saw the first part of it and now we're

935
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: going to see the second part of it. And if

936
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: I understand correctly, it is entitled The Whistleblower and it

937
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: focuses on me. I will be interested in seeing what

938
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: it is. But then we will have a panel moderated

939
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: by Professor Schrmer, and it has some other people on it.

940
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: I'm very eager to hear their views. I will, of

941
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: course say some of the same things that I have

942
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: just shared with you that I believe the Department is complicit.

943
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:44,919
Speaker 1: I believe the Secretary has an obligation under the law.

944
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: It doesn't make just good economic sense, but I think

945
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: there is an obligation there to act. And I would

946
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: say also that, yes, some people have commended me, but

947
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: you also have to understand and that from my standpoint,

948
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: I was a federal civil servant. I was under oath

949
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: in order to execute the laws of the United States properly.

950
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: I didn't see that I had any option, especially since

951
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: I was the one who uncovered the manipulations of laws

952
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: loans among bond estates, and no one else had standing

953
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: to do it, And so if I hadn't stepped up,

954
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how I would have lived with myself.

955
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: It was simply an obligation I had, and I think

956
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: that's the way a lot of people who are whistleblowers

957
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: feel about their actions. They were just doing their job. Well.

958
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: I appreciate it because too few people actually do their

959
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: job in looking out for other people other than themselves,

960
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: So we appreciate that. Thank you so much for taking

961
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: the time to join woke f Daily today. Appreciate you

962
00:59:55,560 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: and good luck on the panel. Okay, thank you anytime.

963
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: That is it for me to day on woke F

964
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: daily as always. Power to the people and to all

965
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.