1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and m Julie Douglas, and 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: we're gonna give you a second dose of one of 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: our favorite episodes from last year to dealt with a 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: topic that once we brought it up, we could we 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: just couldn't stop seeing it. In additional topic, we're talking, 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: of course, about super normal stimula. Yeah, that explains so 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: much in our daily lives. If you look around and say, ah, 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: that is why that thing exists. Yeah, it's some core 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: sceptable your mind content. So if you enjoy it the 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: first time, enjoy it again if not prepared to have 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: your mind on it. Today is an episode of where 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: we can call out a particular listener for suggesting it. Yeah, listener, Serena. 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: She sent us this excellent life Hacker article about why 16 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: we feel the need to fill our pie holes in 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: our eye holes with exaggerated versions of stimuli every day. Yeah, 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: and at the startup because you think life Hacker, do 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: you think I am? I'm reading a life Hacker article 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be a better equipped to sort 21 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: of make the best out of my day. You know, 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: there's kind of an uplifting aspect to that. And so 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I entered into this 24 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: topic with that sort of idea in mind, like, oh, 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: it's just a little quirky inside into how we go 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: about our daily lives and maybe how you might improve 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: it a little bit. But I found this topic to 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: be one of the more ultimately disturbing topics that we've 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: looked at, like this condemning of of of human nature 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: and sort of makes you want to crawl into a 31 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: cave to a certain extent. Yeah, because you're right. The 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: premise was like, hey, we all love cheesecake, right, it's delicious, 33 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: it's patty, it's got tons of sugar. But this happens 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: to be something called a super normal stimuli. Um. This 35 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: is a term evolutionary biologist used to describe any simulus 36 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: that a listits a response stronger than the stimulus for 37 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: which it evolved, even if it's artificial. So, in other words, 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: we like sugar because that's a quick hit of energy. 39 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: We needed that back in the day. Um, but we 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: don't need a slice of cheesecake. Yeah, sugar is probably 41 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: the easiest example to to just call out and and 42 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: and generally a well not even really a harmless one, 43 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: but a less harmful version of some of the things 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at here, because the basic ideas, how 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: much raw sugar can you find in the natural environment 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: if you're a you know, a prehistoric hunter gatherer. Maybe 47 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: you'll find some berries, maybe you'll find some sort of 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: a carrot, uh, but you're not gonna find, you know, 49 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: a big sucker, a big dumb, dumb of a whole 50 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: field of TUTSI rolls to feast on. That is super 51 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: normal stimuli. That is a a version of the stimuli 52 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: that we seek as a as an organism, except it 53 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: is it is blown out of proportion. It is the 54 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: crack cocaine of sugar, and certainly crack and heroin, methamphetamines. 55 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: These are these are other examples of of super normal 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: stimuli that have had a huge effect on humans. Yeah, 57 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: in my mind, there's a whole class of desserts called 58 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: porn desserts, you know what I'm talking about. Like there's 59 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: like sixteen layer caramel cakes that are just so huge 60 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: and big and with you know, red frosting, and it's 61 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: so over the top. And we'll be talking about porn 62 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: by the way later on. But it's like such a 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: good example, another great example, um of the sort of 64 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: supernormal stimuli, giant eyed dolls or even anime character. I 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: was thinking about this cute. Yes, we've we've we've recorded 66 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: at least one podcast in the in the past on 67 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: the power of cute and and how cute really taps 68 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: into our our primal instincts to want to care for 69 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: like a small child. And so we end up seeing 70 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: that smash small child's face in a cat in a 71 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: cartoon character. But you look at some of these just 72 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: super cute, hypercute, dangerously cute anime characters or the or 73 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: the or certainly the avatar of this Hello kitty, and uh, 74 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: and it's overpowering. It's cuteness almost beyond our human ability 75 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: to take it in right. And as Dedra Bartlett of, 76 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: a Harvard psychologist and the author of super Normal Stimuli, 77 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,559 Speaker 1: how primal urges overran the revolutionary purposes says, this human 78 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: instinct for food, sex, or even territorial protection, all of 79 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: that is rooted in our instincts evolved, as you say, 80 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: for hunting and gathering. An early man and she says 81 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: that evolution has been unable to keep up with the 82 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: pace of change, this rapid change in the modern life, 83 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: in which a taco bell, Dorito's Loco taco, you know, 84 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: day glo orange in your hand suddenly arrives. Um Our bodies, 85 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: in our minds aren't really unable to water down that instinct, 86 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: that response to that food or that stimulus. Yeah. I mean, 87 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: because that on a basic level, what does the human 88 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: creature need in order to survive? It needs to mate 89 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: and uh and and and report use. It needs to 90 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: take in food, um, it needs to find uh these 91 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: various tastes that please it. It needs protection. It doesn't 92 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: need a lot of things. But then we layer on 93 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: all the complexities of human civilization, our technology, our art, 94 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: our ability to find all the stimuli that we crave, 95 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: and then just just pump them up to an unbelievable degree. Yeah. 96 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: Bartlett says that as a result, we have a glut 97 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: of larger than life objects, from candy to pornography to 98 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: atomic bombs, that cater to outmoded but persistent drives with 99 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: dangerous results. Indeed, now, in order to fully understand this, 100 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: we have to go to the roots of the term 101 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: supernormal stimuli, which are based in some rather uh simple 102 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: biological principles, which is nice because again, all these these 103 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: human layers of human civilization technology, it complicates the issue. 104 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: But when we look to the animal world we can 105 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: find a far simpler model, and we we find that 106 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,559 Speaker 1: back in the nineteen thirties with the work of Dutch 107 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: Noble laureate Nico Tinbergen. That's right, he is the person 108 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: who coined the term super normal stimuli to describe these 109 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: these uh sort of imitations that appeal to primitive instincts 110 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: and exert stronger attraction than the real thing. So this biologist, 111 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: he set about isolating traits that trigger certain instincts in 112 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: animals and insects, and he manipulated these traits in nature 113 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: to see what would happen. So this next bit is 114 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: from the Live Hacker article by Daniel Jodi or Giotty. 115 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: I suppose it says that he constructed plaster eggs to 116 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: see which one a bird would prefer to sit on, 117 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: finding that they would select those that were larger, had 118 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: more defined markings or more saturated color. A day glow 119 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: bright egg with black polka dots, for instance, would be 120 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: selected over the bird's own pale, dappled eggs, and in 121 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: fact that bert would keep slipping off the huge one, 122 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: but it couldn't help it. It was drawn to that 123 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: super stimuli of the colors in the markings, because the 124 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: colors in the markings in the natural world, in the 125 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: in the in the natural course of events, would indicate 126 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: the healthier eggs, which ones have the highest graded survival, 127 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: and therefore that's where the bird is going to focus 128 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: his attention. This artificial egg, though, just pumps that completely 129 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: out of proportion, and the bird cannot help but respond 130 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: by setting on this lifeless but beautiful, gaudy egg and 131 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: in riding that egg to the detriment of its actual 132 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: biological offspring in the surrounding eggs, which are which are 133 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: okay but less amazing. Yeah, this is actually, to me 134 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: the really depressing part when you see this in nature, Yes, 135 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: because it really does bear out this idea that a 136 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: lot of this is sort of hardwired in us and 137 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: all organisms. He also found that territorial male stickleback fish 138 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: would attack a wooden fish model more vigorously than a 139 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: real male if it's underside was redder, so again, pumping 140 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: up those signs to it that would make it say, 141 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: oh that that's a competitor. Look how red that underbelly is. 142 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: And this is interesting too. I want to make sure 143 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: everyone sort of bookmark this for later. Uh. Here we 144 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: have supernormal stimuli that is in kind of in the 145 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: negative realm as opposed to the positive, something that's based 146 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: in fear as opposed to desire. That's a really good point, 147 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: the aggressive part of it, right. Okay. Another experiment was 148 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: that he constructed a cardboard dummy butterfly with more defined 149 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: markings that male butterflies would actually try to mate with 150 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: in preference to actual real female butterflies. And that's another 151 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: one to to definitely remember for later when we can 152 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: start getting into the human versions of these same principles. Yeah, 153 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: because if you think about, um, we'll get into this later. 154 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: But you know, I always talk about gender performance. And Okay, 155 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: if you take a female and a male and you 156 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: don't do really much to them in terms of grooming 157 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: them and clothing them in ways that are coded for 158 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: their gender, there's not a ton of difference between them. 159 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: But if you slap on a bunch of makeup on 160 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: a female, plug her eyebrows. She's really performing that gender. 161 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: And I think about it that with these butterflies like 162 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: this must have been like the Marilyn Monroe of that butterfly. Yes, 163 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: and all the other male butterflies are like, Yes, that one, 164 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: even though she's wooden, looks great. Yes, the butterfly becomes 165 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 1: this a little closer to this, this ideal butterfly. Right, 166 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: And that's what really gives me about the topic of 167 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: supernormal stimuli. Um My mind in reading this get kept 168 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: returning to a Plato's theory of forms. Plato's in The 169 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: Philosopher of Course, Um. He proposed that we live in 170 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: this material realm, right, okay, and beyond our plane of existence, 171 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: there's an immaterial realm of ideal forms, all right, you 172 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: can you can think of these ideal forms is the 173 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: absolute perfection of a given thing, a truth that cannot 174 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: be manifested in the material world. All we can do 175 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: is echo it. Okay. So in this world there's no 176 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: true beauty, but we have in an understanding and longing 177 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: for the true form of beauty as as it exists 178 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: beyond the limits of the material world. In a similar sense, 179 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: see would argue that there's no true justice here. But 180 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: we all have a sense of justice because there's an 181 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: unreachable ideal that exists beyond our realm okay out there 182 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: in the realm of forms. And you can apply this 183 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: to just about any anything like a one argument is 184 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: often made as a chair, Like every chair in our 185 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: world is just a take, an attempt to capture the 186 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: perfect chairness, uh that we would find in the world 187 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: of forms, beyond our material world. Every pretty face, every feeling, 188 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: every work of art, it's just a take on the ideal. 189 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: And so it's tempting to view a supernormal stimuli in 190 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: the same way we innately long for the true forms, 191 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: forms that simply do not occur in the natural world. 192 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: We do it through our art and our technology, and 193 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: in doing this we're able to inch a little closer 194 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: and a little closer to this awesome and terrible perfection 195 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: that we crave. And so so we end up engine 196 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: closer and closer and in creating an artificial thing that 197 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: just cannot exist in this world, and we're craving nothing 198 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: but but shadows of that and imitations of that. And 199 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: we're taking to your point that, I mean, the makeup 200 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: argument is perfect because we're taking real versions of beauty 201 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: and in a sense of defacing them and trying to 202 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: carve them into into avatars of this true form. This 203 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: this perfect form that just cannot be achieved. Yeah, this 204 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: is essentially the Platonic ideal, right, this idea that you're 205 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: trying to get to this ideal as close to perfection 206 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: as possible. Other Plato would say there's no perfection because 207 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: we are mere copies of what God intended. Right, So 208 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: there's this obsession with, as you say, uh, perfection and idealism, 209 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: and that this supernormal stimuli is really a stand in 210 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: for it. It's such an intriguing idea, especially when we 211 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: get to another section in which we talk about poor 212 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: and and other things that other types of media that 213 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: we consume. Um. But before we do that, let's take 214 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: a break, and when we get back, we're going to 215 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: talk about why humans are essentially like sea gold chicks 216 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to art. Alright, we're back. We are 217 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: going to revisit this topic art and why we're drawn 218 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: to it, um because we need to podcast on this. 219 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: I believe it was like the science of beauty or 220 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: along there's lines, and we talked about vs. Roma Tendren, 221 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: who has some really great and interesting ideas about art 222 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: that he says that are hardwired to the way that 223 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: we respond to our environments. And particularly he says, um, 224 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: we evolved in a camouflage environment, and we are rewarded 225 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: when we identify objects and patterns, and that's why we 226 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: like to seek them out so often in this idea 227 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: called grouping. So he says that when you are looking 228 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: at an artwork, you can't help but be please on 229 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: some level if you can detect those patterns. Now, he's 230 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: just to really understand why we are drawn to certain 231 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: works of art, you have to look at seagull chicks 232 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: because when they hatch, they start pecking at the mother's 233 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: beak for food. And the mother seagulls beak is a 234 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: long yellow thing with a red spot on the end. 235 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: So for those chicks, that red spot is that kind 236 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: of stimuli that they know if they tap it they 237 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: get food. So action, reaction, and reward. But the researchers 238 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: quickly found is that you have okay, so you have 239 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: the beak with the markings, but you can you can 240 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: have just a beak. You don't need the mother because 241 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: the because nature takes shortcuts in our associations here or 242 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: and certainly in the associations of birds. So you can 243 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: take the mother out of the equation. You can just 244 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: put a beak on a stick and they will respond 245 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: to that. So that's that's kind of the spot has 246 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,359 Speaker 1: to have the spot has has to the the appropriate markings. 247 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: But where it gets even crazier is that you turn 248 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: those markings into super stimuli. You you put three red 249 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: lines on there, and then that just makes it irresistible 250 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: to the chick, like it just it just overflows the circuitry, 251 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: overloads the circuitry, and they have to go to that beak. Now. Yeah, 252 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: And actually Ron Chandon says that the chick prefers the fetishized, 253 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: highly abstract representation of a beak to the real beak. Again, 254 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: little depressing here because the mother is attached to the 255 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: real beak. And yet here are these three stripes that 256 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: are very strong. Um, they're that they're exhibiting a crazy 257 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: reaction to. And this was researched done by athologist Tim Burton, 258 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: by the way, Yeah, not to be confused with the 259 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: Tim Burton. Yeah, I was trying to because I was 260 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: reading the interview with the Rama shandren Nafer it to 261 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: Tim Burton. So I started doing all these searches for 262 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: Tim Burton Birds, Tim Burton Biologist, and it was still 263 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: getting nothing but information on the director Tim Burton, because 264 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: I would love to see some sort of mash up 265 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: like him directing a film about super normal stimuli. Yeah, yeah, 266 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: I mean I feel I want to see nothing but 267 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: films about super normal stimuli now, um super stimuli about 268 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: super stimuli. Indeed, but rum Children says that this is 269 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: the same reason that we humans gravitate towards art, that 270 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: these abstractions, these metaphors and unusual combinations of elements play 271 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: to instincts wired deep in our reptilian brains, instincts that 272 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: really don't have any bounds because, again, as Bartlett says, 273 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: everything that's available to us today and the super sized 274 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: fashion is not something that was available, you know, ten 275 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, and so our brains and our bodies 276 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: just have not been able to be conscious enough really 277 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: to tamp this down. Yeah. And I love how he 278 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: referred to the artificial beak for the bird as as 279 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: a fetish, because it instantly brings to mind some of 280 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: these these ancient fetishes that you see the the venous 281 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: figurines right where it's during like almost a headless woman 282 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: bosoms and valley and uh. And in a sense, even 283 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: in a in a very primitive sense, this is an 284 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: idealized female form. And of course through the history of 285 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: art you see lots of idealized versions of the of 286 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: the female forming the venus de Milo, for example, is 287 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: just another venus in a very long tradition of venus 288 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: is well, yeah, I mean the code of those pieces 289 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: of art is basically that your genetic material is going 290 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: to survive better in this person, maybe because perhaps there 291 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: would there would be um stronger offspring or more of 292 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: a chance to copulate with this person, or you know. 293 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: I mean, those are all the signs that are coming 294 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: from that particular piece of art. And rom Trondon says 295 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: that artists are tapping into the figural primitives of our 296 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: perceptual grammar and creating ultra normal stimuli that are more 297 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: powerfully exciting certain visual neurons in our brains as opposed 298 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: to realistic looking images. Yeah. Like when we did our 299 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: podcast on the art, Savannahs came up landscapes that there 300 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: are certain artistic interpretations of landscapes that arguably, uh get 301 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: into our brain more that are more pleasing, more pleasing, 302 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: but essentially get their claws into us because on a 303 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: very primitive level, we see it and we know that 304 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: this would be a good place to live. It's like, oh, 305 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: there's some trees, I can seek some cover. There, there's 306 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 1: some water I can drink. Everything that Bob Roth describes 307 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: when he's painting a landscape like, those are all things 308 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: that are those are all aspects of of a landscape 309 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: that would be pleasing to the human organism. Yeah, I 310 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: remember from that too, that, um, the vantage point was 311 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: really important that you would want to be up on 312 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: a hill and those landscape painting so that you would 313 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: be able to see out not just you know, over 314 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: your kingdom, but be able to see any intruders coming 315 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: upon you. Right, all right, So that's art. That's one. 316 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: It's one thing to think about the aesthetic world. But 317 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: but how do we take this and apply it to 318 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: the the less esthetic worlds of say fast food. Well, 319 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: as we had mentioned before, you mean the especially with sugar. 320 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: Our bodies need a little bit of it, and so 321 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: we have those big crazy anime eyes looking at that 322 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: and taking all of that in and thinking I want 323 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: the entire thing. Um. So you know, for me, I 324 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: think this topic is really very large in junk food 325 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: because food is energy. We gravitate to it, um, but 326 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily know when to stop, right. That's the 327 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: whole boundary thing with our instincts. So if you look 328 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: at a giant jar of peanut butter on on a shelf, 329 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm talking about Costco or any of those 330 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: other like super crazy places where they've got just giant, 331 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: oversized cans of all types of food. On some level, 332 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: that's tapping into the primal brain in somewhere. I mean, 333 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: you know, some evolutionary bottles just might say that jar 334 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: of peanut butter is a promise to you that you're 335 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: not going to have to leave your cave very often 336 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: for food and you won't encounter as much danger. Yeah, 337 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: because your body is saying that stuff is great, that 338 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: is what I crave. I want as much of that 339 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: as we can possibly get, so that I can stockpilot 340 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: and have it whenever I want. I will not have 341 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: to leave my apartment for three months with that jar 342 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: of peanut butter. But you know, of course there's an 343 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: idea here that we live so much in the symbolic world, 344 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: and so some of these meetings can't help but drill 345 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: down into us. Now, I can't help but think of 346 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: French fries um in terms of super normal stimuli, because 347 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: what our French fries, your average order of French fries, 348 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, covered with ketchup, and that's and that's not 349 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: counting if you're adding bacon or chili or nacho cheese 350 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: or whatever the latest t G. I. Friday's sort of 351 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: twist on it happens to be. But in one plate, 352 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: you're you're you're satisfying your cravings for fat, for crispiness, 353 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: that you're that you're on on a on a on 354 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: one level, associating with fresh vegetables. You're getting sweetness, you're 355 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: getting salt, maybe you're getting a hit of hint of 356 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: meat if you have some sort of weird topping on it. 357 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: And all of this in one big blasphem is serving. 358 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,239 Speaker 1: You know what's really interesting that is there is an 359 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: article out there somewhere about the physics of a potato 360 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: chip and why it's so appealing to us. And if 361 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: I'm remembering this correctly, the kind of crunch, That popping 362 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: sound that the chips make is the exact same that 363 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: a fresh fruit or vegetable might feel like in your mouth. 364 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: And this is something that our brains have been tagging for, 365 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of years, and so that 366 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: chip is really just riding into the circuitry of your 367 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: brain saying fresh fresh, this is good, this is healthy. 368 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: Let's we cannot just eat just one eat the whole pag. 369 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah that's salty too. Yeah, alright, another area that again, 370 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: there's some there's a level of aesthetics involved in this 371 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: as well, but the world of gaming video gaming everything 372 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: from you know, playing what is it candy corn candy 373 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: crush on your phone to some sort of deep m 374 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: emo immersion experience, because what do you get with video games? 375 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: Do you get an instant entry into a world of 376 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: goal achievement UM neurological award for that goal achievement, empowerment 377 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: in some cases graphic violence, exploration UM. The goal achievement 378 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: is something I often think about as when I find 379 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: time these days to to play like a quick video game, like, 380 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: I think, well, this is clearly what's happening here is 381 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: my brain is adjusting to this false environment and saying, oh, well, 382 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: we just achieved something there. We just achieved something there, 383 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: even if in the course of the day maybe I 384 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: didn't actually close any loops, you know, here I am 385 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: closing loop after loop and just say fifteen minutes of gameplay. 386 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: So this reminds me of two things. One is the 387 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: stickleback fish, right, because you've got that the red underside 388 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: of the wooden fish. That more aggression towards that. And 389 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: video games are so beautiful, if I may say that, Um, 390 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: the way that they're rendered in the colors and the saturation, 391 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: all of that is very intriguing and it's kind of 392 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: like hyper realism. So that's one thing I think that 393 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: people fall into. The other is this is really playing 394 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: into for me, is an episode of It's Always Sunny 395 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia And are you familiar with us? I've watched 396 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: the number of episodes. It's great. And when the characters 397 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: is d and she's kind of always shoved around by 398 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: the other guys in this gang of theirs, so to speak, um, 399 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: and she turns to the virtual world with avatars to 400 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: try to vanquish them in a sense because in real 401 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: life she has not much power or control over the situation, 402 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: but she creates these characters, and everybody in the town 403 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: gets to know the virtual reality players in this game 404 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: get to know that gang, and they know how d 405 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: is describing them in this other world. It is probably 406 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: my favorite It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode, and there's 407 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: this great idea behind it all that they're just all 408 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: in a turtle dream and outer space. Oh, that's pretty awesome. 409 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: I'll have to check that episode out. Yes, I love 410 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: the mention of the word avatar because certainly avatar in 411 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: the gaming world is one thing. It's the version of 412 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: us that goes into this lesser world. And in the 413 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: the world of cosmology and religion, an avatar is a 414 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: version of a God that we as humans can interact with, 415 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: or at least some aspect of a God uh that 416 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: we can comprehend and uh. And in thinking about the 417 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: ideal forms of Plato, I can't help but think of 418 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: those forms in that in that ideal realm as being 419 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: kind of like God's, kind of like a pantheon of 420 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: God's where each deity is again an idealized version of 421 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: something that we want out of life. And in the 422 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: gaming world, this adversary that you're you're you know, you're 423 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: shooting in this uh this fifteen minutes of game play 424 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: in the evening. That is the ideal version of an adversary, 425 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: kind of an avatar of some uh of some ideal enemy, 426 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: and you're vanquishing it in the same way that uh, this, uh, 427 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: this artificial version of a beautiful woman in a magazine 428 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: is again an avatar of of ideal be that we've 429 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: created some version of the unimaginable perfection beyond our realm 430 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: that we have made we've cobbled together in our realm. Well, 431 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: let's jump off on that, because I think the beautiful 432 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: woman thing that really plays into this idea of porn 433 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: and again gender performance. And when we talked about lust 434 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: uh in an episode of one of Our Seven Sins, 435 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: we talked about this article called the Internet is for porn. 436 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: So let's talk about it. And I just wanted to 437 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: reference it real quick in light of why we seek 438 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: super normal stimuli before um yield Internet. I suppose by 439 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: now there were fewer than ninety porn magazines published in 440 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: the US. Today, more than two point five million porn 441 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: sites are blocked by CYBERsitter. That's not all of them, 442 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: but that's as many as CYBERsitter has comed through. So 443 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: now consider that porn is tapping into the reward circuitry 444 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: of your brain with the release of dopamine, and dopamine 445 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: is really that neurotransmitter, that chemical that keeps you seeking 446 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: out that experience again and again. It's what helps form habits. 447 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: So porn is this kind of really interesting aspect of 448 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: supernormal stimuli because you know, you could have a person 449 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: in the other room who is more than willing to 450 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: have sex with you, but some people will actually opt 451 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: to say, just look at porn instead and um interact 452 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: with that image in their mind. And that is fascinating 453 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: because here you might have the real thing, but you know, 454 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: just like the beak, the fake beak with the three 455 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: stripes on it, you keep sort of going towards that 456 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: fake thing, or even more to the point, like the 457 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: gaudy golden egg in the bird's nest. It's not going 458 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: to produce anything. It has no substance. It's it's just 459 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: a just a gateway to the abyss. But you're going 460 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: to choose that over over actual human interaction or at 461 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: least even the you know, if not, you know, certainly 462 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: not everyone's in a position where they can as easily 463 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: find human interaction and ultimately some sort of sexual experience, 464 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: but still to choose that over the even the attempt 465 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: at it, the attempt at human interaction. And think about 466 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: that egg again, you know, with a big giant egg 467 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: with US spots on it, the Polka dots and as 468 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: day glow yellow. And then think about the women that 469 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: are represented in porn and their dimensions. Quite often you 470 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: have I mean, I don't know that there's even any 471 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,479 Speaker 1: um porn that features women that aren't augmented or at 472 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: least approaching certain dimensions with their bodies. Well, there are 473 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: a lot of different types of pornography. Well, and you know, 474 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: obviously seventies porn. I'll tell you what. Paton Oswald, the 475 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: stand up comedian he um, he did did a bit 476 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: and I imagine still does a bit, uh pointing out 477 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: that no matter what ones like, whatever a person's particular 478 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: individual fetish is, no matter you know, this dark thing 479 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: that they haven't told anybody somewhere out there in the world. 480 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: There there's like a team of people who have a 481 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: magazine devoted to that, and they're just so bored with it. 482 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: It's just so every day. Now it's an older bit 483 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: that he did imagines you could basically extrapolate this too 484 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: websites and pornography in general, so that every corner of 485 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: of of of sexuality within limits or maybe not even 486 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: within limits, is represented out there, and that's part of 487 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: the supernormal stimuli of it. Like you could you could 488 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: just go out there and just fall down the whole 489 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: of pornography and almost never reached the bottom, and again 490 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: dopamine would be really helping to carve out those neural 491 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 1: pathways to keep you going again and again. So obviously 492 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: we are conscious of our behavior. We humans. We have 493 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: that beautiful prefrontal cortex which is helping us manage all 494 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: these different things about our lives and helping us to 495 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: be conscious. Um, so how do we want to look 496 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: at this, because I mean, you can look at this 497 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: in a light of like uh, positively light super normal 498 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: in general, or just pornography basically, um, supernormal in general, 499 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: because with pornography we could certainly got a lot deeper 500 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: into that topic and just discussing like because you have 501 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: super normal stimuli, and then how does that affect just 502 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: everything in life? How does that affect uh, you know, 503 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: underlying currents of misogyny and culture. How does that affect that, 504 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: your personal interactions, your expectations from real world sexuality, How 505 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: does it change real world sexuality? But for another podcast, 506 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is there are two different 507 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: ways to look at this. So you want to take 508 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: good copper, bad cop um, I guess I'll take a 509 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: bad cop knew it? Okay, Okay, Well, I mean the 510 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: bad cop version of of looking at the super normal 511 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: stimuli is that I mean, we're kind of we're kind 512 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: of boned, and we always have been. We're tied to 513 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 1: these these cravings and these desires for these ideal form ms, 514 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: and we, thanks to our technology, thank to our thanks 515 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: to our art, we're able to craft. We're able to 516 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: sort of scratch away at that layer between us and 517 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: the ideal to create these artificial versions of the things 518 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: we want. And then we were kind of powerless to 519 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: resist them. You know that we we we end up 520 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: not leaving our apartments because the Internet provides us just 521 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: instant access to whatever our whim might be, instant access 522 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: to just you know, an endless stream of whatever kind 523 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: of sexuality we want to immerse ourselves in. We can 524 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: we can order any kind of tantalizing junk food we 525 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: want and have it delivered right to our home and 526 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: whatever quantities we want. And so we end up just 527 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: setting on that big golden egg, just writing it into extinction, 528 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: like the like the atomic bomb at the at the 529 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: end of Doctor Strange Luck. And indeed the atomic bomb 530 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: is an example of aggression of just of of super 531 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: stimuli in the world of of protection and the do 532 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: ire to be protected against aggression from these uh outsider forces. Okay, 533 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: I'll add one thing to that before I go to 534 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: a good cop. All right, um, see, because you're a 535 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: bad cop too, that's the thing. Well, I can be 536 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: a good copy. Do you remember we're talking about our 537 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: episode on habits, and we were talking about like something 538 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: like forty five percent of the decisions that we make 539 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: on a daily basis are rooted in habit And if 540 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: habits are driven by reward systems, then that means that 541 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: that's not such a great thing, right, Like it would 542 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: be very hard for us to overcome these sort of 543 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: routinized neural pathways that are happening every single day. Like 544 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: you might have to be as zen as a monk 545 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: and as conscious of your behaviors. But now I will 546 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: go to DJ Bartlett. She's really a good cup here, 547 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: and she says humans have one stupendous advantage over tim 548 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: Bergen's bird, that Nicolas tinbergen Um. She says, we have 549 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: a giant brain, and this would give us the unique 550 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: ability to exercise self control and override instincts that lead 551 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: us astray and extricate ourselves from civilizations gaudy traps. You think, 552 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: so I think we can do it. Maybe, I mean, 553 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of a colossal idea, because again, I'm 554 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: I kind of like to look at these super stimuli 555 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: entities as kind of dark gods from beyond our universe, 556 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: and then what standing, what do we have to combat them? 557 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: We have, we have a nice brain, we have some 558 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: willpower that we can summon, we have some self knowledge 559 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: of our relationship with super stimuli. We can conceivably stop 560 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: and realize oh that even without getting into the porn, 561 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: to go back to just just beauty, you know, to realize, oh, 562 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: well that that version of Scarlett Johansson it's on the 563 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: front of that magazine is actually she's wearing makeup she 564 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: has probably been photoshopped, like even though that is a 565 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: real woman, that is an idealized version of a real woman. 566 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: So we can, we can be self aware, we can 567 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: exert willpower. So yeah, I will. I will agree with 568 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: the good Cops to a certain extent on that. But 569 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: I feel like we're we're up against some pretty overwhelming odds. No, no, 570 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: we like to rely on our lazy blueprint that we've 571 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: created for ourselves, at least should say I do, because 572 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: back to willpower. We've done, of course, the podcasts on willpower, 573 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: and we know that willpower is at a pleadable resource. 574 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: So when we're most of command, most in command of ourselves, 575 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: when we're most awake and aware of ourselves, then maybe 576 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: we're the equal of this of these forces. But we 577 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: can't stay awake all the time. We can't stay uh 578 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, completely tanked up on willpower all the time 579 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: unless we have a third eye that we can open 580 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: to consciousness. But I think that kind of concludes where 581 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: we are with this topic. You know, there are a 582 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: couple of bright spots in this world, and weren't symbolic 583 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: meaning is under pinning everything that we do. Indeed, we 584 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: have the we have the equipment to fight with good fights, 585 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: so so just keep that in mind. Suit up yeah 586 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: the next time cheesy fries come inat so that you 587 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: have it. Uh, one of our favorite episodes from the 588 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: vault there. If you'd like to check out other episodes 589 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Plow your Mind, head on over to 590 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, where you'll find 591 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: all the past episodes, all the videos, all the blog 592 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: post links out to our social media accounts, you name it, 593 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: and if you have thoughts on this, we'd like to know, 594 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: especially like does this change your ideas of the sorts 595 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: of fast food that you may or may not engage 596 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: in that triple decker burger? Let us know. You can 597 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: email us that blow them mine how stuff works dot 598 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 599 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com