WEBVTT - Ronan Farrow on Catch and Kill 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.280 Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:09.240 Heart Radio and Katie Couric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.400 and welcome to Next Question, where we try to understand 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.960 the complicated world we're living in and the crazy things 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.840 that are happening by asking questions and by listening to 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.120 people who really know what they're talking about. At times, 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.240 it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:34.600 with me, everyone, let's all learn together. Hey guys, going 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.040 hello ron In here. He is on stop seventy nine 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.000 of the Whistle Stop Tour. How are you looking forward to? Yeah, 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.320 me too. Thank you so much for making time. I 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.440 think we'll have a really interesting conversation. Guess we will 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.560 catch up on This week we're exploring workplace culture, and 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:59.600 not just any workplace NBC News, where I spent nearly 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.240 twenty years of my career. The story that Ronan Pharaoh 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.840 chronicles in his new book Patch and Kill is full 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:11.679 of intrigue, deception, and accusations of sexual assault and corporate malfeasance. 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.720 It's the story I have been thinking a lot about 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.080 and processing for the last two years, and one I'm 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.039 actually writing about as I work on my own book 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.840 about my personal and professional life. But for now, my 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.880 next question, how and why did NBC News fail to 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.959 give the green light to one of the most important 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.760 stories of the year. Ronan Pharaoh is here to answer 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.440 that question. Ronan, good morning, good morning. Nice to see you. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.880 And you've been working on this book for two years. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.319 You want to pull a serprise for your reporting of 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.200 Harvey Weinstein and The New Yorker. When did you first 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:55.760 become aware of rumors about Harvey Weinstein? You know, people 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.360 talk about this question of what did people know in 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.480 the orbit of a lot of the bull that I've 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.160 reported on. And there's people who knew as in they 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.160 had specific information about a serious allegation of a crime. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.920 And there's people who knew in air quotes, right like, 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.959 they knew a little bit about a reputation for being gross. 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.600 They've heard a thing or two here or there. I 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.200 was at most in the latter category. You know. I 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.240 had a peripheral knowledge of sort of a larger than 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:29.920 life producer who had a kind of, uh course, bullying style. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.000 And I had seen, you know, a Gawker item or 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.680 two about casting couch stuff. And I was working on 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.800 for my Today Show series, a mini series about Hollywood 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.920 and investigative topics in Hollywood. One of those topics was 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.280 casting couch, and very quickly the conversations about Harvey Weinstein 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:51.600 turned from that kind of subject transactional sexual relationships in 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.960 the workplace, which is already a serious conversation to have, 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.280 to something that was more serious and even criminal. You 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.799 mentioned that NBC News President Noah and Heim initially championed 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.240 your work. In fact, he was the one who first 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.640 suggested you look into Rose McGowan's claims that an unnamed 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.560 studio had had raped her. Do you believe at the 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:17.560 time he thought she was talking about Harvey Weinstein. You know, 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.760 I can't speak for Noah Oppenheim's state of mind. For 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.079 a long time he denied having given that assignment. Um, 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.840 he now admits that. Uh. I am grateful for the 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:32.280 fact that, over the course of many years, a number 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.480 of people at NBC championed tough reporting that I was doing. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.960 And really I went into this body of reporting with 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.840 a lot of positive feelings about those executives outside of 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.400 this set of interactions where something suspicious was happening, not 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.440 just according to me, but according to working level people. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.200 Including my producer who witnessed the shutdown of the story. Well, 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.120 let's talk about some of the elements and your path 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.520 to breaking this story rown in because you know, you 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:04.280 did it in a methodical way, gathering your evidence and 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.160 obviously getting people to talk to you on camera and off. 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.560 You and Rich MQ, your producer. Um, you had a 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:17.440 tape recording of Harvey Weinstein admitting to groping model Amber 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.480 guy terrorists. What other evidence had you amassed in the 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.279 process of your reporting? In every draft of this story 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.000 while it was at NBC News, we had multiple named women, 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.679 including Amber gautierres cooperating, having showed us a million dollar 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.600 contract to buy her silence and destroy this evidence. Obviously 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.800 the damning tape. Um Rose McGowan was on the record, 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.800 full face with a wrenching account of this and had 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.960 named Harvey Weinstein on the record repeatedly. But then she 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.400 sort of didn't. She kind of got back and forth 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.599 run yes, And when the story was so slow ruled 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.279 for so long, she began to develop suspicions about this 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.160 network and pulled out and has talked very openly on 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.039 the record in recent days about that there was another woman, 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.680 Emily Nestor correct, and the moment Rose pulled out another 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.200 brave woman, Emily Nestor, who had already done an extraordinary 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.880 thing going on camera anonymously, immediately said I will put 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:13.400 my name on this. She also has gone on the 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.719 record in recent days saying, you know, I offered to 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.400 go on the record while the story was on television. 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.080 She was a former assistant of Harvey Weinstein. Emily nest 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.760 was a temporary assistant at the Weinstein Company front desk assistant. 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.920 First day on the job, Harvey Weinstein begins sexually harassing her, 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:31.880 and she is a great example of a really upstanding 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.360 person who immediately said this is wrong, and potentially it's 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.320 a sign of other people going through more serious things. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.719 So she gave a detailed account, and you know what 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.560 she has said on the record is I offered to 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.640 put my face on my name out there, and NBC 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.240 News was not interested in that story. During the course 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.240 of your reporting, you write, it's almost a thriller catching 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.800 kill because you talk about being tailed by Israeli spies. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.160 You talk about someone suggesting you get a gun put 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.400 your research in a safety deposit box. What did that 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:10.280 tell you about the links Harvey Weinstein was willing to 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.800 go to to protect his reputation and to keep this 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.240 story from going public. You know, both of us, Katie, 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.600 have been on tough stories where we see how angry 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.880 powerful interests get and how systems get spun up against reporting. 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:28.919 And people talk about reading the book and feeling like 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.640 it's a spy thriller, as you said, And on the 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.440 one hand that sort of glamorizing in retrospect, but also 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.760 I take out of that like this is a country 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.279 where we have the First Amendment and spy thriller tactics 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:46.159 shouldn't be thrown at real life reporters. And to me, 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.480 that issue is bigger than Harvey Weinstein. It's bigger than 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.880 anyone industry. It is about a full frontal assault on 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.880 the free press right now, through everything from rhetoric deployed 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.000 by politicians trying to say we're the enemy of the people. Uh, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.920 two powerful individuals using lawyers to threaten reporting, which has 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.080 happened around virtually every story that I put out, including 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.160 these stories and catch and kill um. Right now, this 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.160 book is banned by some retailers in Australia because of 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.200 spurious legal threats from the top editor at the National 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.080 Inquirer who doesn't want some things about his relationship with 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.400 Trump exposed. Um, this is a fragile, precious institution, and 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.520 thankfully there's still a lot of protections in this country, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.760 but it can go south very fast if we don't 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.840 have a conversation about protecting it. Of course, every reporter 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.800 has experienced outside pressure, and you're right, I think it's 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:43.360 more intense than ever before in a variety of quarters. 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.240 But when you stop to think about it, we're like, 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.520 oh my god, this is insane. Yeah, that's exactly what 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.840 I thought. I mean, when when you're looking over your 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.560 shoulder and seeing the same guys again and seeing the 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.520 same car again, and sources are telling you you've got 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.240 to get a gun, and you're moving out of your 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:04.520 your place, and you're wondering, am I being paranoid? Is 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.280 this too much? And you know, as sources were saying 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.400 similar things, I've heard a lot of news executives say, 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.240 come on, these ladies are crazy. They think they're being 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.160 followed and stuff, And it's pretty soon those same kinds 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:17.680 of lines we're getting thrown at me. You know, you're 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.160 sleeping enough, You're doing okay here these are crazy things, 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.800 suspicions that you have, and then to be able to 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.200 document and prove that now there are actually Russian spies 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.920 chasing you and they're subcontractors for Israeli former Massad agents. 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.440 It's the reaction that you just described. What are you 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.199 still worried about your personal safety now that the book 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.559 is out? I do worry. I'll be honest, you know, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.400 I really try to talk about this in a way 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.640 that is not woe is me, because I am not 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:50.320 a reporter in Pakistan or in Russia facing the prospect of, 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.800 you know, winding up dead the next morning. The moment 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.280 you talk about power in your country. That is the 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.200 norm in so much of the world, and that is 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.760 not my situation, thank god. Um. But I do think 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.480 it's worth talking frankly about this because there are a 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.960 lot of reporters right here in this country who face 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.440 a lot of intimidation tactics. It's bigger than just me, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.599 and and so the answer is yes, you know, I 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.320 go through moments where I fear for my safety. You 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:21.280 outline many really disturbing and heartbreaking stories about Harvey Weinstein's victims, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.480 and I remember reading your reporting throughout this in The 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:29.440 New Yorker and being specially affected by Annabella Shiura. Yes, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:35.120 because this was something that was so upsetting to me, 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.720 that story and the details of that story. It took 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.400 her a long time to come forward, and in fact, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.480 she didn't initially during the at the early stages of 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.520 your reporting. Can you talk about her for a moment, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.600 because I don't know what it was about her story 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.880 that just sort of cut me to the core. I 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.400 have the same reaction. I get very emotional thinking about 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.360 Annabella's story and what she went through and still goes 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.600 through to this day in terms of her personal trauma. 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:07.960 She was brave, not just in talking to me, but 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.920 in allowing me to tell the full story of the 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:11.800 fact that when I first picked up the phone and 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.679 called her, she panicked and said, no, I don't know anything. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.120 By the way, running we should probably just say she's 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.760 an actress. I remember her the most from the hand 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.840 that rocks the cradle um and then she did kind 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.199 of disappear, right, And that's part of her story too. 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:34.200 You know. Annabella Shiora recounted both a brutal, violent sexual 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:38.920 attack that is shocking to the conscience, as are so 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.920 many of these stories, and she also described a pattern 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.800 of what appears to be stalking afterwards from Harvey Weinstein, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.640 where he was doing everything up to and including, you know, 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.080 bursting into her hotel room unannounced and without permission. Years later, 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.000 and she finally describes something that is common in a 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.280 lot of these instances, which is she is convinced that 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.200 she was smeared and blacklisted and that the evaporation of 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:10.320 her ascendant prior to that career was not unrelated to 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.400 the fact that she had this series of encounters where 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.920 she rebuffed Harvey Weinstein. Let's go back to your reporting 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.520 on Weinstein at NBC. Things started to get complicated, Ron, 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.680 and you were told to stand down on your story 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.559 pending an NBC Universal investigation, which struck me as very 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.839 strange because it wasn't an NBC News investigation but an 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:39.160 NBC Universal investigation. Why do you think a corporate review 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.160 was underway? And did this go all the way up 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.280 to Steve Burke, the CEO of NBC Universal. This is 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.200 not just an account of events that comes from me. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.120 This is a documented paper trail of what happened in 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.880 this company. This is transcripts, This is conversations between Harvey 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.200 Weinstein and executives that they have now admitted to and 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.760 previously concealed. And this is testimonials from people at a 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.199 working level, including my producer on this story, who saw 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.080 the whole thing get shut down. And you know, what 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.160 is clearly laid out in this book is that these 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:16.160 executives were embattled that Harvey Weinstein was laying siege to them, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.280 that in at least fifteen secret calls, he extracted promises 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.640 from them that this story would be killed. And this 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.600 is prior to any kind of authentic journalistic review. And meanwhile, 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.240 my producer and I are being ordered to stop, to 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.160 stand down, to not take so much as a call. 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.720 You know, No Oppenheim, president of NBC News, on six 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.120 occasions in this book and in the actual transcripts of 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:44.200 these events, says you got to stop. And what I 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.439 uncover here is that at the same time that they 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.240 are making these arguments that Harvey Weinstein's attorney has given them, 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.199 including the idea that it is not appropriate for a 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:57.000 news organization to report on secret sexual harassment settlements, they 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:01.079 are brokering and enforcing their own secret sexual harassment settlements 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.280 within NBC. So we've talked about this in the context 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.439 of the CBS story, where I also reported that there 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.959 was a chain of executives accused of misconduct, as is 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.520 the case at NBC, that there was a chain of 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.480 secret settlements to get rid of the problem rather than 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.280 address it um And I point out that comparison because 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.440 this is bigger than anyone TV exactly who cares. These 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.760 are not household names. It's bigger than anyone network. This 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.360 is about patterns of complicity and cover up that allow 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.559 people to get hurt in an ongoing way at these 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:39.000 companies and allow our most important news institutions to bow 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.360 to powerful people. There was a suggestion that you might 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.520 not be objective in your reporting because of Harvey Weinstein's 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.400 relationship with your strange father, Woody Allen, about what you 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.280 believe happened to your sister at the hands of Woody Allen, 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.600 and Noah Oppenheim accused you of having an agenda? Did 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.240 he have a point in any way in terms of 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:06.840 Ronan you being motivated somehow by Dylan's experience, because you 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.680 write very movingly at the end of the book about 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.199 what I detected feelings of guilt that you didn't step 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.760 forward enough and protect your sister. On every story I 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.280 work on, Katie, incredibly personal stuff gets weaponized against me. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.200 One of the first tactics that gets thrown at reporters 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.120 is how do we make this personal? And in this case, 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.800 I reveal here the legal threat letters from Harvey Weinstein 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.120 which raised things like an uncle that I had never 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.800 met who was convicted of pedophilia, or the fact that 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:42.040 my sister was sexually assaulted. And you know, the idea was, 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.720 it's not always clear what the factual link is, right. 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.960 I mean, every reporter has obviously looked at this and said, 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.800 there's no conflict of interest in either of those cases. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.800 This is just someone who is familiar with the issue 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.680 of sexual assault and violence and how important it is. 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.360 And it's a question and theme that I examined in 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.040 the book in a real the fourth right way. You know, 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.360 I talk about people like Ben Wallace from New York 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.479 Magazine and Kenna Letta from The New Yorker being obsessed 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.160 with the story, Kenna Letta using words like fixated this 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.600 this wonderful New Yorker writer who worked for years striving 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.600 to break this thing about Harvey Weinstein and then and 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.840 then being generous and helping me along. And I think 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.920 I compare him to the homicide beat cop kept up 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.360 at night by the case that got away. So there 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.960 is a degree of obsession that kicks in when you 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:34.080 are an investigative reporter on a big story. But very clearly, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:35.960 I think for anyone who was actually looking at that, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.480 including obviously the editors of The New Yorker that ran 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.520 the story, that's called caring about an issue, not like 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.240 having a business deal gone bad with Harvey Weinstein, right, 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.320 And I don't even think it necessarily is. I'm not 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.960 suggesting it's a conflict of interest. What I mean it 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.640 is became intensely in some ways personal for you. The 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.000 the issue. It became one that I understood the stakes 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.600 of on a person, the level which is different from 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.680 there being any kind of direct factual link. You know, 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.640 my sister's allegation is a very different case. And part 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.840 of my journey that I described in this book was 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:13.400 being a guy for a long time who spoke to 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:18.160 a sexual assault survivor in his life and said, why 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.920 don't you just move on? Why does this matter so much? 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.520 And over the course of Catch and Kill, I really 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.360 come to realize how wrong I was, and the fact 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.560 that I was part of a culture that looks the 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.400 other way and moves on because this is an inconvenient 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.040 thing to talk about. In fact, when we come back, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.240 we're going to talk about the ramifications, the long term 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:43.400 repercussions of sexual assault, which I think we're only now 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:48.400 starting to truly understand, and what happened after you left 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.640 NBC and continue to work on this story. We'll be 0:16:51.720 --> 0:17:05.640 right back grown in. After you left NBC, the article 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:11.200 appeared in The New Yorker, and NBC repeatedly claimed that 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.960 you didn't have enough evidence, that you didn't meet their 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:18.000 standards for putting a story on the air. Let's talk 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.200 about sort of the reaction after you left NBC when 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.240 the story did come out, and I would point out, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.920 you know, the indisputable fact is I left that building 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.879 and I showed the same reporting that NBC had had 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.639 to The New Yorker, and their reaction was, oh my god, 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.000 this is a hugely significant body of reporting. We've got 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.720 a rush to finish this. Uh. You know, the the 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.800 supposition of either me or any of the working level 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.480 journalists on this, including my producer, was never that we 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.360 couldn't have done more reporting. In fact, we had offered 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.720 more interviews that NBC than canceled. Um. The point was 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.879 that we were ordered to stop under suspicious circumstances. So 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.440 you know, I'll let people judge for themselves whether that 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.560 reporting should have gotten on air. Clearly that the judgment 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.320 of The New Yorker was this had to get out 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.560 and urgently, and there's been a fair amount of misinformation 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.560 put out about the timeline. The New Yorker green lit 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.720 this story and then four weeks later it was in print, 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.360 and it was a Pulitzer Prize winning article, and that 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.520 is thanks to the bravery of the women who spoke. 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.959 It is thanks to the editors there who were incredible journalists, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.280 and like most journalists who have looked at this, saw 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.800 the evidence for what it was. At one point there 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.960 was even something changed and was it in Wikipedia or 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.080 in another account that said that your reporting took months. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:45.280 NBC has now admitted to hiring a Wikipedia whitewashing surface 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.800 to scrub from the pages of Noah Oppenheim and other 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:54.080 NBC executives references to this scandal to separate out sentences 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.720 that mentioned both Matt Lauer and Harvey Weinstein. In a 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.439 connected way, and to remove references is to the New 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.879 Yorker running the story rapidly afterwards, which is accurate. And indeed, 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.800 in some cases they had this Wikipedia whitewasher inaccurately insert 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.679 that month's past before the New Yorker ran the story. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.560 So when you see a news organization scrubbing the public 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:20.000 record in this way and inserting just outright falsehoods um, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.280 it really does raise the ways in which this is 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.240 bigger than one network, one company. This is about the truth. 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.239 Much of the book is about why NBC didn't go 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.200 with this story obviously, and you point to a number 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.240 of factors, and I thought we could break them down. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.879 One was, I think the history and the baggage of 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.440 the men in charge of making these decisions. I think 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.359 the facts make it very clear that while the tone 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.760 is really sober, and I don't go beyond exactly what 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.960 the facts say. So therefore, you know, you don't see 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.120 an account of like a mustache twirling back room, people 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:56.159 in the shadows signing contracts in blood. What you see is, 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.239 I think, how this really looks when dirty deals are 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.480 cut in context, which is a long chain of secret 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.639 calls and conversations and promises to kill a story being made. 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.200 In those calls, you see Harvey Weinstein's legal threat letters 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.000 to me saying explicitly I have a deal with NBC. 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.120 I have written assurances from them that they will kill 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:21.000 this story and assert a copyright claim if you try 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.800 to take the reporting elsewhere. And you see a documented 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.359 paper trail showing that as Harvey Weinstein was making these 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.760 arguments about secret settlements, this company had many of their 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.000 own that had been concealed before we talk about those 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.040 secret settlements, So you talk about the personal histories of 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.840 some of the individuals involved, i e. Andy Lack, No Oppenheim, 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.040 and Phil Griffin. In each of these cases, you have 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:49.560 individuals that are accused of either misconduct or some very 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:54.000 troubling beliefs themselves. You know, you have Andy Lack, about 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.200 whom multiple women are on the record in this book 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.560 saying that when they were associate producers or talent on 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:03.040 his shows, they were propositioned um slept with him and 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.719 were retaliated against. This was in the eighties, correct, That's right, 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.359 the eighties and nineties. This is his his CBS era 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.760 UM And so you know, I think it's relevant that 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:17.919 although time has passed. This is someone who when Harvey 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.159 Weinstein says to him, look, we all did this, and 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.560 is trying to couch this as affairs with underlings. Uh, 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.560 you have an audience that has a specific perspective on that, 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:30.960 you know. And Andy Lack has not denied those relationships. 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.800 He's denied that he retaliated against those women. I should 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:38.000 point out Noah Oppenheim, you know, is someone who wrote 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:42.800 voluminously about how women's voices on this issue should be 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.080 called into question and how you know, in his words, 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.400 women enjoy being pumped full of alcohol and preyed upon 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.200 at frat parties. And this was when he was at 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.120 the Harvard Crensit's right, and that he's I think, apologized 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.840 for those and said he intentionally wrote provocative pieces. Right, 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.159 And all of that is textas in the book. You know, 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:05.240 I really strive to be generous to Noah Oppenheim and 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:08.639 these executives in the book. There's one very disturbing story 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:10.680 I think about Phil Griffin, you know, I know all 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.520 these people, so uh, and and that is about taking 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:19.240 a photo of Maria Manunos that was I guess taken 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:24.480 by paparazzi printing it out that, you know, exposing herself 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:28.080 unintentionally and then passing it out at a meeting where 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.199 you were in attendance. There was one woman there and 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.119 the rest were men. Did you say anything at the 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.439 time he was doing this. I'm just curious, did you say, Phil, 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.200 this is disgusting or why are you doing this? It's 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.359 a great question and the answer is no. You know, 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:44.919 and I think that that's how these conversations often go. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.680 You know, this is my boss. This is a kind 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:49.960 of conversation that you see a lot in this book 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.480 that when boys think they're in the boys club, and 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:54.959 you know, if there's a woman in the room, then 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.160 she's a woman who's not going to talk back, they 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.119 do talk like this, and and I'm careful not to 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.359 overblow that kind of a charge of sort of gross talk. 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:08.639 But I think that all of this is relevant in 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:12.000 the context of the present day conversations about very serious 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.200 news judgment decisions. You know, I say in the book, 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:18.240