1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Couric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: and welcome to Next Question, where we try to understand 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: the complicated world we're living in and the crazy things 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: that are happening by asking questions and by listening to 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: people who really know what they're talking about. At times, 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: with me, everyone, let's all learn together. Hey guys, going 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: hello ron In here. He is on stop seventy nine 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: of the Whistle Stop Tour. How are you looking forward to? Yeah, 11 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: me too. Thank you so much for making time. I 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: think we'll have a really interesting conversation. Guess we will 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: catch up on This week we're exploring workplace culture, and 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: not just any workplace NBC News, where I spent nearly 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: twenty years of my career. The story that Ronan Pharaoh 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: chronicles in his new book Patch and Kill is full 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: of intrigue, deception, and accusations of sexual assault and corporate malfeasance. 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: It's the story I have been thinking a lot about 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: and processing for the last two years, and one I'm 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: actually writing about as I work on my own book 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: about my personal and professional life. But for now, my 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: next question, how and why did NBC News fail to 23 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: give the green light to one of the most important 24 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: stories of the year. Ronan Pharaoh is here to answer 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: that question. Ronan, good morning, good morning. Nice to see you. 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: And you've been working on this book for two years. 27 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: You want to pull a serprise for your reporting of 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein and The New Yorker. When did you first 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: become aware of rumors about Harvey Weinstein? You know, people 30 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: talk about this question of what did people know in 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: the orbit of a lot of the bull that I've 32 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: reported on. And there's people who knew as in they 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: had specific information about a serious allegation of a crime. 34 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: And there's people who knew in air quotes, right like, 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: they knew a little bit about a reputation for being gross. 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: They've heard a thing or two here or there. I 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: was at most in the latter category. You know. I 38 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: had a peripheral knowledge of sort of a larger than 39 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: life producer who had a kind of, uh course, bullying style. 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: And I had seen, you know, a Gawker item or 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: two about casting couch stuff. And I was working on 42 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: for my Today Show series, a mini series about Hollywood 43 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: and investigative topics in Hollywood. One of those topics was 44 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: casting couch, and very quickly the conversations about Harvey Weinstein 45 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: turned from that kind of subject transactional sexual relationships in 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: the workplace, which is already a serious conversation to have, 47 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: to something that was more serious and even criminal. You 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: mentioned that NBC News President Noah and Heim initially championed 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: your work. In fact, he was the one who first 50 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: suggested you look into Rose McGowan's claims that an unnamed 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: studio had had raped her. Do you believe at the 52 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: time he thought she was talking about Harvey Weinstein. You know, 53 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: I can't speak for Noah Oppenheim's state of mind. For 54 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: a long time he denied having given that assignment. Um, 55 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: he now admits that. Uh. I am grateful for the 56 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: fact that, over the course of many years, a number 57 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: of people at NBC championed tough reporting that I was doing. 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: And really I went into this body of reporting with 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: a lot of positive feelings about those executives outside of 60 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: this set of interactions where something suspicious was happening, not 61 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: just according to me, but according to working level people. 62 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: Including my producer who witnessed the shutdown of the story. Well, 63 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the elements and your path 64 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: to breaking this story rown in because you know, you 65 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: did it in a methodical way, gathering your evidence and 66 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: obviously getting people to talk to you on camera and off. 67 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: You and Rich MQ, your producer. Um, you had a 68 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: tape recording of Harvey Weinstein admitting to groping model Amber 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: guy terrorists. What other evidence had you amassed in the 70 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: process of your reporting? In every draft of this story 71 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: while it was at NBC News, we had multiple named women, 72 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 1: including Amber gautierres cooperating, having showed us a million dollar 73 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: contract to buy her silence and destroy this evidence. Obviously 74 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: the damning tape. Um Rose McGowan was on the record, 75 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: full face with a wrenching account of this and had 76 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: named Harvey Weinstein on the record repeatedly. But then she 77 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: sort of didn't. She kind of got back and forth 78 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: run yes, And when the story was so slow ruled 79 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: for so long, she began to develop suspicions about this 80 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: network and pulled out and has talked very openly on 81 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: the record in recent days about that there was another woman, 82 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: Emily Nestor correct, and the moment Rose pulled out another 83 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: brave woman, Emily Nestor, who had already done an extraordinary 84 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: thing going on camera anonymously, immediately said I will put 85 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: my name on this. She also has gone on the 86 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: record in recent days saying, you know, I offered to 87 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: go on the record while the story was on television. 88 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: She was a former assistant of Harvey Weinstein. Emily nest 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: was a temporary assistant at the Weinstein Company front desk assistant. 90 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: First day on the job, Harvey Weinstein begins sexually harassing her, 91 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: and she is a great example of a really upstanding 92 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: person who immediately said this is wrong, and potentially it's 93 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: a sign of other people going through more serious things. 94 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: So she gave a detailed account, and you know what 95 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: she has said on the record is I offered to 96 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: put my face on my name out there, and NBC 97 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: News was not interested in that story. During the course 98 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: of your reporting, you write, it's almost a thriller catching 99 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: kill because you talk about being tailed by Israeli spies. 100 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: You talk about someone suggesting you get a gun put 101 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: your research in a safety deposit box. What did that 102 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: tell you about the links Harvey Weinstein was willing to 103 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: go to to protect his reputation and to keep this 104 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: story from going public. You know, both of us, Katie, 105 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: have been on tough stories where we see how angry 106 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: powerful interests get and how systems get spun up against reporting. 107 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: And people talk about reading the book and feeling like 108 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: it's a spy thriller, as you said, And on the 109 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: one hand that sort of glamorizing in retrospect, but also 110 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: I take out of that like this is a country 111 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: where we have the First Amendment and spy thriller tactics 112 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: shouldn't be thrown at real life reporters. And to me, 113 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: that issue is bigger than Harvey Weinstein. It's bigger than 114 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: anyone industry. It is about a full frontal assault on 115 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: the free press right now, through everything from rhetoric deployed 116 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: by politicians trying to say we're the enemy of the people. Uh, 117 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: two powerful individuals using lawyers to threaten reporting, which has 118 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: happened around virtually every story that I put out, including 119 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: these stories and catch and kill um. Right now, this 120 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: book is banned by some retailers in Australia because of 121 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: spurious legal threats from the top editor at the National 122 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: Inquirer who doesn't want some things about his relationship with 123 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: Trump exposed. Um, this is a fragile, precious institution, and 124 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: thankfully there's still a lot of protections in this country, 125 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: but it can go south very fast if we don't 126 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: have a conversation about protecting it. Of course, every reporter 127 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: has experienced outside pressure, and you're right, I think it's 128 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: more intense than ever before in a variety of quarters. 129 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: But when you stop to think about it, we're like, 130 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is insane. Yeah, that's exactly what 131 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: I thought. I mean, when when you're looking over your 132 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: shoulder and seeing the same guys again and seeing the 133 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: same car again, and sources are telling you you've got 134 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: to get a gun, and you're moving out of your 135 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: your place, and you're wondering, am I being paranoid? Is 136 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: this too much? And you know, as sources were saying 137 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: similar things, I've heard a lot of news executives say, 138 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: come on, these ladies are crazy. They think they're being 139 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: followed and stuff, And it's pretty soon those same kinds 140 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: of lines we're getting thrown at me. You know, you're 141 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: sleeping enough, You're doing okay here these are crazy things, 142 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: suspicions that you have, and then to be able to 143 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: document and prove that now there are actually Russian spies 144 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: chasing you and they're subcontractors for Israeli former Massad agents. 145 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: It's the reaction that you just described. What are you 146 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: still worried about your personal safety now that the book 147 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: is out? I do worry. I'll be honest, you know, 148 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: I really try to talk about this in a way 149 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: that is not woe is me, because I am not 150 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: a reporter in Pakistan or in Russia facing the prospect of, 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, winding up dead the next morning. The moment 152 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: you talk about power in your country. That is the 153 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: norm in so much of the world, and that is 154 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: not my situation, thank god. Um. But I do think 155 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: it's worth talking frankly about this because there are a 156 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: lot of reporters right here in this country who face 157 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: a lot of intimidation tactics. It's bigger than just me, 158 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: and and so the answer is yes, you know, I 159 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: go through moments where I fear for my safety. You 160 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: outline many really disturbing and heartbreaking stories about Harvey Weinstein's victims, 161 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: and I remember reading your reporting throughout this in The 162 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: New Yorker and being specially affected by Annabella Shiura. Yes, 163 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: because this was something that was so upsetting to me, 164 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: that story and the details of that story. It took 165 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: her a long time to come forward, and in fact, 166 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: she didn't initially during the at the early stages of 167 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: your reporting. Can you talk about her for a moment, 168 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: because I don't know what it was about her story 169 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: that just sort of cut me to the core. I 170 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: have the same reaction. I get very emotional thinking about 171 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: Annabella's story and what she went through and still goes 172 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: through to this day in terms of her personal trauma. 173 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: She was brave, not just in talking to me, but 174 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: in allowing me to tell the full story of the 175 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: fact that when I first picked up the phone and 176 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: called her, she panicked and said, no, I don't know anything. 177 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: By the way, running we should probably just say she's 178 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: an actress. I remember her the most from the hand 179 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: that rocks the cradle um and then she did kind 180 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 1: of disappear, right, And that's part of her story too. 181 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: You know. Annabella Shiora recounted both a brutal, violent sexual 182 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: attack that is shocking to the conscience, as are so 183 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: many of these stories, and she also described a pattern 184 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: of what appears to be stalking afterwards from Harvey Weinstein, 185 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: where he was doing everything up to and including, you know, 186 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: bursting into her hotel room unannounced and without permission. Years later, 187 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: and she finally describes something that is common in a 188 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: lot of these instances, which is she is convinced that 189 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: she was smeared and blacklisted and that the evaporation of 190 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: her ascendant prior to that career was not unrelated to 191 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the fact that she had this series of encounters where 192 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: she rebuffed Harvey Weinstein. Let's go back to your reporting 193 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: on Weinstein at NBC. Things started to get complicated, Ron, 194 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: and you were told to stand down on your story 195 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: pending an NBC Universal investigation, which struck me as very 196 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: strange because it wasn't an NBC News investigation but an 197 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: NBC Universal investigation. Why do you think a corporate review 198 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: was underway? And did this go all the way up 199 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: to Steve Burke, the CEO of NBC Universal. This is 200 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: not just an account of events that comes from me. 201 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: This is a documented paper trail of what happened in 202 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: this company. This is transcripts, This is conversations between Harvey 203 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: Weinstein and executives that they have now admitted to and 204 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: previously concealed. And this is testimonials from people at a 205 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: working level, including my producer on this story, who saw 206 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: the whole thing get shut down. And you know, what 207 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: is clearly laid out in this book is that these 208 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: executives were embattled that Harvey Weinstein was laying siege to them, 209 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: that in at least fifteen secret calls, he extracted promises 210 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: from them that this story would be killed. And this 211 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: is prior to any kind of authentic journalistic review. And meanwhile, 212 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: my producer and I are being ordered to stop, to 213 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: stand down, to not take so much as a call. 214 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: You know, No Oppenheim, president of NBC News, on six 215 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: occasions in this book and in the actual transcripts of 216 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: these events, says you got to stop. And what I 217 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: uncover here is that at the same time that they 218 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: are making these arguments that Harvey Weinstein's attorney has given them, 219 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: including the idea that it is not appropriate for a 220 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: news organization to report on secret sexual harassment settlements, they 221 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: are brokering and enforcing their own secret sexual harassment settlements 222 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: within NBC. So we've talked about this in the context 223 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: of the CBS story, where I also reported that there 224 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: was a chain of executives accused of misconduct, as is 225 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: the case at NBC, that there was a chain of 226 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: secret settlements to get rid of the problem rather than 227 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: address it um And I point out that comparison because 228 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: this is bigger than anyone TV exactly who cares. These 229 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: are not household names. It's bigger than anyone network. This 230 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: is about patterns of complicity and cover up that allow 231 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: people to get hurt in an ongoing way at these 232 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: companies and allow our most important news institutions to bow 233 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: to powerful people. There was a suggestion that you might 234 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: not be objective in your reporting because of Harvey Weinstein's 235 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: relationship with your strange father, Woody Allen, about what you 236 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: believe happened to your sister at the hands of Woody Allen, 237 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: and Noah Oppenheim accused you of having an agenda? Did 238 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: he have a point in any way in terms of 239 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: Ronan you being motivated somehow by Dylan's experience, because you 240 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: write very movingly at the end of the book about 241 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: what I detected feelings of guilt that you didn't step 242 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: forward enough and protect your sister. On every story I 243 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: work on, Katie, incredibly personal stuff gets weaponized against me. 244 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: One of the first tactics that gets thrown at reporters 245 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: is how do we make this personal? And in this case, 246 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: I reveal here the legal threat letters from Harvey Weinstein 247 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: which raised things like an uncle that I had never 248 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: met who was convicted of pedophilia, or the fact that 249 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: my sister was sexually assaulted. And you know, the idea was, 250 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: it's not always clear what the factual link is, right. 251 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: I mean, every reporter has obviously looked at this and said, 252 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: there's no conflict of interest in either of those cases. 253 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: This is just someone who is familiar with the issue 254 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: of sexual assault and violence and how important it is. 255 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: And it's a question and theme that I examined in 256 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: the book in a real the fourth right way. You know, 257 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: I talk about people like Ben Wallace from New York 258 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,479 Speaker 1: Magazine and Kenna Letta from The New Yorker being obsessed 259 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: with the story, Kenna Letta using words like fixated this 260 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: this wonderful New Yorker writer who worked for years striving 261 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: to break this thing about Harvey Weinstein and then and 262 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: then being generous and helping me along. And I think 263 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: I compare him to the homicide beat cop kept up 264 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: at night by the case that got away. So there 265 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: is a degree of obsession that kicks in when you 266 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: are an investigative reporter on a big story. But very clearly, 267 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: I think for anyone who was actually looking at that, 268 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: including obviously the editors of The New Yorker that ran 269 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: the story, that's called caring about an issue, not like 270 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: having a business deal gone bad with Harvey Weinstein, right, 271 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: And I don't even think it necessarily is. I'm not 272 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: suggesting it's a conflict of interest. What I mean it 273 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: is became intensely in some ways personal for you. The 274 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: the issue. It became one that I understood the stakes 275 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: of on a person, the level which is different from 276 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: there being any kind of direct factual link. You know, 277 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: my sister's allegation is a very different case. And part 278 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: of my journey that I described in this book was 279 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: being a guy for a long time who spoke to 280 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: a sexual assault survivor in his life and said, why 281 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: don't you just move on? Why does this matter so much? 282 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: And over the course of Catch and Kill, I really 283 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: come to realize how wrong I was, and the fact 284 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: that I was part of a culture that looks the 285 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: other way and moves on because this is an inconvenient 286 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: thing to talk about. In fact, when we come back, 287 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the ramifications, the long term 288 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: repercussions of sexual assault, which I think we're only now 289 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: starting to truly understand, and what happened after you left 290 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: NBC and continue to work on this story. We'll be 291 00:16:51,720 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: right back grown in. After you left NBC, the article 292 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: appeared in The New Yorker, and NBC repeatedly claimed that 293 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: you didn't have enough evidence, that you didn't meet their 294 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: standards for putting a story on the air. Let's talk 295 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: about sort of the reaction after you left NBC when 296 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: the story did come out, and I would point out, 297 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: you know, the indisputable fact is I left that building 298 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: and I showed the same reporting that NBC had had 299 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: to The New Yorker, and their reaction was, oh my god, 300 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: this is a hugely significant body of reporting. We've got 301 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: a rush to finish this. Uh. You know, the the 302 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: supposition of either me or any of the working level 303 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: journalists on this, including my producer, was never that we 304 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: couldn't have done more reporting. In fact, we had offered 305 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: more interviews that NBC than canceled. Um. The point was 306 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: that we were ordered to stop under suspicious circumstances. So 307 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: you know, I'll let people judge for themselves whether that 308 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: reporting should have gotten on air. Clearly that the judgment 309 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: of The New Yorker was this had to get out 310 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: and urgently, and there's been a fair amount of misinformation 311 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: put out about the timeline. The New Yorker green lit 312 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: this story and then four weeks later it was in print, 313 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: and it was a Pulitzer Prize winning article, and that 314 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: is thanks to the bravery of the women who spoke. 315 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: It is thanks to the editors there who were incredible journalists, 316 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: and like most journalists who have looked at this, saw 317 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: the evidence for what it was. At one point there 318 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: was even something changed and was it in Wikipedia or 319 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: in another account that said that your reporting took months. 320 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: NBC has now admitted to hiring a Wikipedia whitewashing surface 321 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: to scrub from the pages of Noah Oppenheim and other 322 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: NBC executives references to this scandal to separate out sentences 323 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: that mentioned both Matt Lauer and Harvey Weinstein. In a 324 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: connected way, and to remove references is to the New 325 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: Yorker running the story rapidly afterwards, which is accurate. And indeed, 326 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: in some cases they had this Wikipedia whitewasher inaccurately insert 327 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: that month's past before the New Yorker ran the story. 328 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: So when you see a news organization scrubbing the public 329 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: record in this way and inserting just outright falsehoods um, 330 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: it really does raise the ways in which this is 331 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: bigger than one network, one company. This is about the truth. 332 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,239 Speaker 1: Much of the book is about why NBC didn't go 333 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: with this story obviously, and you point to a number 334 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: of factors, and I thought we could break them down. 335 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: One was, I think the history and the baggage of 336 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: the men in charge of making these decisions. I think 337 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: the facts make it very clear that while the tone 338 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: is really sober, and I don't go beyond exactly what 339 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: the facts say. So therefore, you know, you don't see 340 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 1: an account of like a mustache twirling back room, people 341 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: in the shadows signing contracts in blood. What you see is, 342 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: I think, how this really looks when dirty deals are 343 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: cut in context, which is a long chain of secret 344 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: calls and conversations and promises to kill a story being made. 345 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: In those calls, you see Harvey Weinstein's legal threat letters 346 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: to me saying explicitly I have a deal with NBC. 347 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: I have written assurances from them that they will kill 348 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: this story and assert a copyright claim if you try 349 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: to take the reporting elsewhere. And you see a documented 350 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: paper trail showing that as Harvey Weinstein was making these 351 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: arguments about secret settlements, this company had many of their 352 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: own that had been concealed before we talk about those 353 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: secret settlements, So you talk about the personal histories of 354 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: some of the individuals involved, i e. Andy Lack, No Oppenheim, 355 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: and Phil Griffin. In each of these cases, you have 356 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: individuals that are accused of either misconduct or some very 357 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: troubling beliefs themselves. You know, you have Andy Lack, about 358 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: whom multiple women are on the record in this book 359 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: saying that when they were associate producers or talent on 360 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: his shows, they were propositioned um slept with him and 361 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: were retaliated against. This was in the eighties, correct, That's right, 362 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties. This is his his CBS era 363 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: UM And so you know, I think it's relevant that 364 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: although time has passed. This is someone who when Harvey 365 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: Weinstein says to him, look, we all did this, and 366 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: is trying to couch this as affairs with underlings. Uh, 367 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: you have an audience that has a specific perspective on that, 368 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: you know. And Andy Lack has not denied those relationships. 369 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: He's denied that he retaliated against those women. I should 370 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: point out Noah Oppenheim, you know, is someone who wrote 371 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: voluminously about how women's voices on this issue should be 372 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: called into question and how you know, in his words, 373 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: women enjoy being pumped full of alcohol and preyed upon 374 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: at frat parties. And this was when he was at 375 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: the Harvard Crensit's right, and that he's I think, apologized 376 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: for those and said he intentionally wrote provocative pieces. Right, 377 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: And all of that is textas in the book. You know, 378 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: I really strive to be generous to Noah Oppenheim and 379 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: these executives in the book. There's one very disturbing story 380 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: I think about Phil Griffin, you know, I know all 381 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: these people, so uh, and and that is about taking 382 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: a photo of Maria Manunos that was I guess taken 383 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: by paparazzi printing it out that, you know, exposing herself 384 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: unintentionally and then passing it out at a meeting where 385 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 1: you were in attendance. There was one woman there and 386 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: the rest were men. Did you say anything at the 387 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: time he was doing this. I'm just curious, did you say, Phil, 388 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: this is disgusting or why are you doing this? It's 389 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: a great question and the answer is no. You know, 390 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: and I think that that's how these conversations often go. 391 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: You know, this is my boss. This is a kind 392 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: of conversation that you see a lot in this book 393 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: that when boys think they're in the boys club, and 394 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: you know, if there's a woman in the room, then 395 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: she's a woman who's not going to talk back, they 396 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: do talk like this, and and I'm careful not to 397 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: overblow that kind of a charge of sort of gross talk. 398 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: But I think that all of this is relevant in 399 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: the context of the present day conversations about very serious 400 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: news judgment decisions. You know, I say in the book, 401 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: Noah Oppenheim wrote those things about women when he was young. 402 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: He was trying to be a provocateur. People grow the immature. 403 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: But it is also worth noting that in this specific case, 404 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: Noah Oppenheim makes the same kinds of arguments in the 405 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: present day. He says, in response to a taped confession 406 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: of sexual assault, that I play for him. You know, 407 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: people say a lot of things like that when they're 408 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: they're trying to get rid of a girl like that. Um. 409 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: You know, he evinces views on women and about the 410 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: extent to which this issue matters that are broadly consistent 411 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: with those earlier writings. And you know, similarly, you have 412 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: someone like Phil Griffin, who in this book producers described 413 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: being dragged to peep shows by him and being you know, 414 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: told things that make them extremely uncomfortable. Um. Also, in 415 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: conversations with Harvey Weinstein promised to kill a story about 416 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: some of these issues. You have Andy Lack, who has 417 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: slept with underlings and allegedly retaliated against them hearing from 418 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein. You know, this is normal behavior, and I 419 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: think therefore it's not a gotcha to include those things. 420 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: These are important pieces of context for understanding the people 421 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: who make the decisions about our narrative, about our country. 422 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the relationship, the connection between Harvey Weinstein 423 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: and Matt Lauer. Explain the evidence you have that Harvey 424 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: Weinstein was working with the tabloids, specifically the National Enquired 425 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: to exert pressure on NBC not to go with this 426 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: story about him. What was he using as leverage and 427 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: what evidence do you have of that? So it is 428 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: indisputable that Harvey Weinstein had to deal with the National Inquirer. 429 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: That's something that I've reported previously that he was huddled 430 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: with Dylan Howard, the top editor at the National Enquirer, 431 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: and Dylan Howard was being used as an attack mechanism 432 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: and secretly recording people on be Weinstein's behalf and running 433 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: items on Harvey Weinstein's behalf. It's also indisputable that those 434 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: items included an escalating chain of stories about Matt Lower 435 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: and either affairs or Piccadillo's or misconduct in the office, 436 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: and you know, items about things like NBC executives getting 437 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: fed up with his misconduct around the workplace. Um, so 438 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: this was an area of focus for them. Those are 439 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: items that ran. We also uncover in the reporting in 440 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: this book that the National Enquirer was among the first 441 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: to obtain the resume of Brooke Neville's the woman who 442 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: ultimately got Matt Lower fired. You know, they had pursued 443 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: Matt Lower's accusers for years over the course of these events. 444 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: While I'm reporting on this story, Dylan Howard pulls the 445 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: kill file stories that they've gotten rid of about Matt Lower. 446 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: He begins besieging NBC and his reporters began besieging NBC 447 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: with calls about Matt Lower. Um and that's not necessarily 448 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: formal calls to to the PR department. These are calls 449 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: to personnel around NBC. So there is, in addition to 450 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: the multiple sourced account that a threat was explicitly delivered here, 451 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: and we do have those in the book. Along with 452 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: NBC's denial that any such threat was delivered, there is 453 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: an indisputable, uh juxtaposition of a situation where Harvey Weinstein 454 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: was laying siege to this organization and this organization's secrets 455 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: were very much under threat of exposure. Can you tell 456 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: me how the threat was explicitly delivered to NBC A 457 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: quid pro quo if you will, I'll leave it at 458 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: the exact precise reporting in the book, which is very 459 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: precisely fact checked and in which we're very confident, But 460 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: there are multiple sources of both NBC and ad Am I, 461 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: who say that that's the case. We're on, and throughout 462 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: the book we encounter women like Asia Argento and Brooke 463 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: Nevil's who claimed to have been raped Asia the first 464 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: by Harvey Weinstein, Brooke Nevels by Matt Lauer, and then 465 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: continued seeing those same men. Both men have denied the allegations. 466 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: You also say, quote Weinstein suggested repeatedly that an interaction 467 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: wasn't rape if the woman in question came back to 468 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: him later, and in defending himself in that open letter, 469 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: Matt Loward denies his relationship with Nevill's was ever not consensual, 470 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: and wrote that after Neville's claimed the first encounter was 471 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: an assault, she quote actively participated in arranging future meetings 472 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: and met me at my apartment on multiple occasions to 473 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: continue the affair. When people questioned the validity of these 474 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: allegations because they were not reported immediately and sexual encounters 475 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: continued afterwards, given how much you've studied this issue, how 476 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: do you explain that to them? So I'm glad you 477 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: raised this because it is one very common facet of 478 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: sexual violence that it is perpetrated in many cases by 479 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: family members, by bosses, by people that an alleged victim 480 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: can't get away from. And you know, we include Matt 481 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: or is thinking very clearly in the book. The rebuttals 482 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: that are in that letter are also woven into the narrative, 483 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: and I think people can judge the facts for themselves. 484 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: This is not as Matt Lauer describes Um in Brooke 485 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: Neville's Rendering an Affair. This is a case of a 486 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: junior employee who has already immediately begun reporting two people 487 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: around her that this was an attack, feeling terrified and 488 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: placed in a in a position where she is cornered 489 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: by these invitations to go to his apartment, have drinks, 490 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: all the things he mentioned, who is struggling not to 491 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,479 Speaker 1: piss off a powerful man. In her account of events, 492 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: um And, who she readily concedes, did everything in her 493 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: power to put him at ease, to try to make 494 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: him feel that she was okay with things and she 495 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: wasn't going to tell on him. Um And And, by 496 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: the way, that follow on of contacts between them included 497 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: interactions where she just described trying to get away from 498 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: him and being forced to interact with him for professional reasons, 499 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: having to go to his office to get things or 500 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: tape things and UH, and then him propositioning her for 501 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: sexual favors, and how demoralizing and brutalizing that was. So. 502 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: I hope people read the narrative in the book in full, 503 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: because it is both fair to Matt Lowers thinking and 504 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: also lays out a much more complicated portrait than the 505 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: items that have been planted, saying this is just an affair. 506 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: And in fact, your account of Brooke Neville's uh conversation 507 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: with you you visit her at her apartment. I think 508 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: is is heartbreaking, and I think it does I think 509 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: provide a window into the psychology of someone who has 510 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: been victimized. This is both about sexual abuse and also 511 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: the abuse of power. And you know, one recurring theme 512 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: that has been raised by some of these alleged survivors 513 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: of Matt Lowers predation is the idea that they were 514 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: targeted in part because of their junior position and the 515 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: fact that they worked for around people who were peers 516 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: of Matt Lowers, and that perhaps in some sense there 517 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: was a power play element to that. You know, it 518 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: is not for me to psychologize or explain why someone 519 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: in a position of that kind of influence would choose 520 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: to sleep with underlings and in the workplace rather than 521 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: anyone else in the world. NBC News insists, then, when 522 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: Matt Lower was fired in November of two thousand and seventeen, 523 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: this was the first time they had ever heard of 524 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: official allegations of sexual misconduct against him. You write, there 525 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: were multiple n d A S two I believe involving 526 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: Matt Lower. Tell me about those and about evidence that 527 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: you believe refutes their contention. This was their first real 528 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: understanding of Matt Lower's behavior in the workplace. Well, there 529 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: point on this is some what more modeled than what 530 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: you just alluded to. You know, there have been allusions 531 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: to the idea that perhaps previous management knew but no 532 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: Oppenheim specifically didn't know. So they've said a number of 533 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: things around this, and you know, many of those comments 534 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: are in the book, and I'll let them stand on 535 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: their own. What is not disputable, as there is a 536 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: paper trail in this book that shows that in a 537 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: period where the General Council of NBC told the reporters 538 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: of NBC there were no sexual harassment settlements, in fact, 539 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: there were at least seven. Several of those were with 540 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: women who had voiced complaints about Matt Lauer within the 541 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: company that were discussed at a very senior level years before. 542 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,479 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that. About the 543 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: protocol of you know, how these things work, is that 544 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: the legal department do they go up to the very 545 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: highest level of management. Is it in fact possible that 546 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: these things were happening or transpiring without the knowledge of 547 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: the top executives at the organization? You know, and Curry, 548 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: a former colleague of ours, is on the record in 549 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: this book talking about how she told senior executives, and 550 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: I spoke to senior executives who were told by multiple people. 551 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: You know, there is a Matt lower problem. Matt Louer 552 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: is at least verbally harassing women in the office, maybe more. 553 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: And the answer to your question about systems and protocols is, 554 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: so often in these cases, what we're seeing is not 555 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: systems and protocols, but a failure of those things. You know, 556 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: it is true at Fox, at the Weinstein Company, at 557 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: CBS that none of the people that ultimately were fired 558 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: from misconduct had any record in their HR files about 559 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: sexual harassment. You know. Bill O'Reilly pointed out constantly there 560 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: is no record in my HR file. Harvey Weinstein pointed 561 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: out constantly, there's no record in my HR file. And 562 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, human resources officials, who are tasked with monitoring 563 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: these kinds of issues in the workplace play a really 564 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: important role. And when we see these issues being discussed 565 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: but not being formally recorded in companies, that's a serious 566 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: failure of systems. I think there should be a separate 567 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: organization of HR personnel who do not answer to the 568 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: power structure at an organization. There needs to be, and 569 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: we see this question of independence all the time. There 570 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: are multiple scenes in which the wonderful journalists of NBC 571 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: who are now anguished about this and calling for accountability, 572 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: including on air, telling their bosses we need an independent 573 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: investigation of Matt Louer of the killing of the Weinstein story. 574 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: Over and over again this comes up and leadership at 575 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: this company refuses. And this is a theme that again 576 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: is bigger than NBC. We've seen it at multiple companies 577 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: where there is resistance to outside independent review. An internal 578 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: review is not a review, and I think that's one 579 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: of the lessons of this era. I was surprised that 580 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: they ordered an internal review and there wasn't that much 581 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: pushback inside NBC although perhaps there was there there was, 582 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: and we documented. You know, there's this incredible exchange where, uh, 583 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: the journalists of the investigative Unit sit with Kim Harris, 584 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: the general counsel of this company, and these wonderful reporters say, 585 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: why are we not doing an outside review, even if 586 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: it's unflattering, it will help the problem go away, to 587 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: be forthright about it. And she says, well, if the 588 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: press would stop talking about it, it'll go away. And 589 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: a reporter in the room says, we are the press 590 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 1: when we come back. The future of NBC's leadership, Harvey 591 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 1: Weinstein and the me too movement that's right after this, Ronnan, 592 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 1: were you surprised so many people were willing to help 593 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: you with your reporting? And why do you think they 594 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 1: were willing to do that? And what does it tell 595 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: you about the atmosphere or the environment inside the corridors 596 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: of NBC News. This book is a tribute and a 597 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: love letter in a lot of ways to fellow reporters, 598 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of those reporters are at NBC. I 599 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: admire them tremendously as journalists. Many of them are sources 600 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: in this book, And you know, I fundamentally believe in 601 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: our profession, Katie, I think we're tasked with interrogating the 602 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: truth in as fair away as possible. I think that 603 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: is true of a vast majority of the reporters at 604 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: NBC and that CBS organizations I've done reporting on, and 605 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 1: they are correctly trying to help along reporters digging into 606 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: this and asking for answers. Did you leave any stories 607 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: about sexual misconduct out because you felt, for legal reasons 608 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: you were unable to report them? Every story I do, Katie, 609 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: there is a wider universe of facts than what makes 610 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: it onto the page. And that is true in an 611 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: especially huge and significant way with a book that you 612 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: actually started as a thousand page draft and then had 613 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: to be whittled down. So there's a whole variety of 614 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: reasons why you don't include certain stories, even if they 615 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: fact check. Um. You know that can be because is 616 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: you feel like you want just one extra layer of corroboration, 617 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: because everything in this had to be so bulletproof. It 618 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: can be because even though it's true, you feel like 619 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: it is unfair or prejudicial in some way to include it. 620 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: This book actually initially ended with a particularly sort of 621 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: personal and withering account of something about one of the 622 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: people that I report on in it. And in the 623 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: end I felt like ending the book on a note 624 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: that is about a person was the wrong move. That 625 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: it had to end on a note that was about 626 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: systems and about big themes. And in fact, you do 627 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: not blame any one person, and you go out of 628 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: your way grown In, after I think you're implored by 629 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: Noah Oppenheim that he is not the villain, you write 630 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: that Noah Oppenheim is not the villain, even though he 631 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: said to you that it was quote, a consensus about 632 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: the organization's comfort level moving forward, and you go on 633 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: to write rown In it was that consensus that stopped 634 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: the reporting that out to lawyers and threats that hempden 635 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: hot and parsed and shrugged, that sat on multiple credible 636 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: allegations of sexual misconduct and disregarded a recorded admission of guilt. 637 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: That anodyne phrase, that language of indifference without ownership, upheld 638 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 1: so much silence in so many places that protected Harvey 639 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: Weinstein and men like him that yawned and gaped and 640 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: enveloped law firms and PR shops and executive suites and 641 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: industries that swallowed women whole. That to me must for 642 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: you have been one of the most important paragraphs who 643 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: wrote in this book. It was because, Katie, the point 644 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm making there, and that kind of Noah Oppenheim perhaps 645 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: uh not fully wittingly makes in his speech where he 646 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: begs me to to kind of exonerate him in this 647 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: is Yes, there was a specific plot that played out 648 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: here in terms of the contacts between NBC and Harvey Weinstein. Yes, 649 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: there were specific added who's on the parts of these men, 650 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: some of whom have been accused of serious misconduct, and 651 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: their beliefs about whether this issue mattered. But almost more 652 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: than that, Katie, this is also a story about garden 653 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: variety corporate cowardice, and people like Noah Oppenheim who sit 654 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: there and say, I have a boss. There's other people 655 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: making these decisions. I don't know. I got to talk 656 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: to legal. And when you see people passing the buck 657 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: and looking the other way and feeling that there is 658 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: no ownership over decisions at a company, that is what 659 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: creates the situations like the ones we've seen at the 660 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: Weinstein Company, the ones we've seen at am I, the 661 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: ones we've seen at CBS and the ones that we're 662 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 1: seeing at NBC. The l A Times reports at NBC 663 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: Universal CEO Steep Burke has read your book and continues 664 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: to support Noah Oppenheim. He is in line to succeed 665 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: NBC News chairman Andy Lack, who is seventy two and 666 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: his contract runs through next year. What is your action 667 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: to step Burke's continued support of Noah Oppenheimen What do 668 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: you believe should happen to the men who were making 669 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: these decisions? You know, I'm a reporter, not an activist, Katie, 670 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: and every story that I write, I get a similar question. 671 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: What's gonna happen, What's gonna happen in Harvey Weinstein's criminal trial, 672 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: What's gonna happen to Les Moonvez before he was fired. 673 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: It's not my job to be a part of that conversation. 674 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: My job is to fairly and rigorously interrogate the facts. 675 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: And I am so grateful that incredible journalists inside and 676 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: outside of NBC have taken those facts and pursued them 677 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: further and demanded more transparency and accountability. And my hope 678 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: in writing a book like this is not to get 679 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: anyone fired. It is to prompt a serious and broader 680 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: conversation about the need for accountability in media, the need 681 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: to defend brave sources and brave reporters. I know you 682 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: continue to get hundreds of emails and tips every day. Well, 683 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: we continue to hear me too accusations about other people 684 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: in the media. Are other shoes still likely to drop? 685 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: This story is very much about the bravery of sources. 686 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: It ends not on a note of pessimism and darkness, 687 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: but on one of hope about people continuing to come forward. 688 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: That's true for a reason. My inbox is full of leads, 689 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: and I am so grateful to everyone who entrusts me 690 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: with evidence. I can't promise that I'll always respond to 691 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: every message, but I can promise if you present me 692 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: with something newsworthy, I will. If I can't report on it, 693 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: try to get it to someone else. And there's a 694 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: bigger theme here, Katie, which is the press is not 695 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: bowing to cover ups an intimidation. Sources and whistleblowers are 696 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: not shutting up, and as long as that's the case, 697 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: we've got a shot at transparency and accountability in this country. Finally, 698 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: what is the next step in your view and the 699 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 1: me too movement. How do we move the conversation forward, 700 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: grown in and see real change implemented at these institutions, organizations, companies, 701 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: not just in media but across all industries. That to 702 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: me is the real question, because you look get some 703 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: of the power structures at some of these organizations, and 704 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: they don't seem to budge. Some have. Susan Zarinsky is 705 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: now president of CBS News, the first female president ever, 706 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: And there's obviously an awakening and a reckoning as everyone 707 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: has talked about. But will institutional change actually follow, and 708 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: how can the conversation encourage that consumers and people like 709 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: us in the media have to call for action and 710 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: for unbudgeable companies to budge. CBS, which you mentioned, is 711 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: a great example of a company that thought there was 712 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: a similar kind of smear campaign against reporting and ultimately 713 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 1: did have a serious conversation about the need for change 714 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: and did start to enact changes. It's not perfect there, 715 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: but things are shifting. Their need to be reassessments not 716 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 1: just of leadership but of corporate policies. We are seeing 717 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: companies like Uber pledged to not use n d A 718 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: s with respect to sexual harassment, and in fact, twenty 719 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: six states are now considering Legislator Shan making n d 720 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: as illegal. Yes, so you know, part of uncovering this 721 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: chain of secret settlements at NBC and these nd as 722 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 1: is about this broader phenomenon where thankfully, legislatures and companies 723 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: are taking a second look at that kind of practice. 724 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: Ronan Pharaoh. The book, if anyone hasn't heard of it 725 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: at this point, is called catching Kill Lies, Spies and 726 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: a Conspiracy to protect predators. Ronan, thank you very much. 727 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: Always such a pleasure to talk to you, Katie, thank you. 728 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I 729 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media. The executive producers are 730 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Julie Douglas, and Tyler Klang. 731 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: Our show producers are Bethan Macaluso and Courtney Litz. The 732 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate producers are Emily Pinto 733 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: and Derek Clemens. Editing is by Dylan Fagin, Derrek Clements, 734 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: and Lowell Brolante. Our researcher is Barbara Keene. For more 735 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: information on today's episode, go to Katie correct dot com 736 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Couric. 737 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I 738 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to 739 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.