1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: What do you do in life doesn't go according to 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: answers one question. Now, what at this point you had? 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: You wanted to go to Yale? Right? I wanted to 13 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: go to Yale. I did not get into Yale, and 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: did not get into Yale. I get rejected from Yale, 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: which I had applied to earlier. I had all my 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: emotional egs in that basket. I went upstairs when I 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: got the rejection letter. It was still an analog letter 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: in those days, obviously, and I got the little envelope. 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: I went upstairs to the bathroom and I shaved my 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: head with scissors and a razor. If that doesn't tell 21 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: you that I was an insanely over dramatic child who 22 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: really just needed to be an actor and not go 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: to Yale. Like that just tells you it's good you 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: didn't get into Yale. You're you're way too emotionally unstable 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: as a seventeen year old. You just need to be 26 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: an actor. That voice you just heard is none other 27 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: than cal Penn. You might know him as one of 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: the world's most famous donors and one of two stars 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: of the Harold and Kumar franchise. But did you know 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: he also worked in the White House. That's right, cal 31 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: Penn is the king of pivots. He's done a dizzying 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: amount of work in the industry. How Sunnyside designated Survivor, 33 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: and he also worked for former President Obama. We sat 34 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: down to talk about his new book, You Can't Be 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: Serious and his incredible journey. Thank you so much for 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: doing this. Thank you. I'm very excited. I'm so excited 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: to get a chance to talk to you. Um where 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: are you? Where are you right now? I'm in New York, 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm a New Yorker. Oh all right. I 40 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: was born in Jersey. I was I grew up mostly 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: in Wayne and in a town called Freehold, which is 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: where Bruce Springsteen is from. We went to my rival 43 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: high school, I know, I know. So those are those 44 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: are big claims to fame for where I grew up. 45 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: And so you where high school? Did you go to 46 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: Freehold Township High School? Freehold High School? Cause I went 47 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: to I went to high school in Englewood, New Jersey. Um, 48 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: but I commuted from the city to Englewood, which wasn't 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: done in the eighties. It was the reverse commute. But 50 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: it was crazy. It was like the one kid from 51 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: from New York the city. Yeah, what was your childhood 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: like in New Jersey? Like, it's so funny. I've I've 53 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: thought about that a lot because it's the opener to 54 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: this book that I wrote. And so the first draft 55 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: that I turned in, I thought, and the way that 56 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: I had pitched the book to my editor was, look, 57 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: it's gonna be funny, Like these are stories that I've 58 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: told very close friends after like beer number five, you know, 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 1: and so it's just they're just gonna organically be fun charming, funny. 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: I turned in the first draft and she goes, hey, um, 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: this is super dark. What a dark series of chapters? 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: And the reason being. And I know you'll appreciate this 63 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: as a fellow artist. Is I feel like a lot 64 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: of times, when we write things, you remember things like, Okay, 65 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: what was a difficult time in childhood like? Or what 66 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: was it like getting bullied in middle school? Which, by 67 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: the way, when I was in middle school was not 68 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: called getting bullied, it was just called eighth grade. So 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: in writing that, I didn't realize that I was reverting 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: back to whatever those emotions were. So the first draft 71 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: of those chapters oddly read as more painful than they 72 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: are because when I tell those stories verbally, they have 73 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: a lot of humor, and there's a lot of obviously 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: perspective of being a forty something year old who can 75 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: look back at childhood with a lot of good humor. 76 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: Well that's interesting because one of the things that struck 77 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: me the most is your positivity through all of it, 78 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, and that there's this real joy in just 79 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: everything and really understanding it. I can understand how it 80 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: seems like these are rough stories because you're talking about 81 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: stories of being bullied eighth grade. There is something in that, 82 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: But to find humor through all of it is a 83 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: through line. And yet I tell my kids stories like, 84 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, I walked into my dorm in college and 85 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: my roommates had taken my Brook doll, because you know, 86 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I had a doll after me in the eighties, as 87 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: one does, and it was hanging by a little news 88 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: and it's like, it sounds horrible and it was funny. 89 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: But when I tell my daughters things like this, they 90 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: get so upset and they get so so so sad. 91 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: But I learned from a very very early age the 92 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: p our hum For me, that was how I survived. 93 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: When did you realize you were funny? The eighth grade 94 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: and sort of by force, I was the tin man 95 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: and our school's production of the Whiz Uh. And you know, 96 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,559 Speaker 1: at the time, if you were in the school play, 97 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: or if you were a soccer player, you stayed after 98 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: school for your either soccer practice or rehearsal. So that 99 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: late bus that took all the kids home was where 100 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: all the tormenting would happen. Right, the soccer players were cool, 101 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: we were not. But the tormenting, like it was things 102 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: that by today's standard, thankfully, there's a way that we 103 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: recognized them. Right, We were getting beat up on those busses, 104 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: We were getting spit on we were getting, you know, 105 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: it was just things that that we're not just the 106 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: jokey thing that you can say, Oh, how silly. That 107 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: was what middle school was. They were. They were certainly 108 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: painful at the time. So the school play was about 109 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: to go up, and you know, it was like three 110 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: nights in the evening for the parents to come watch, 111 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: and our drama teacher says, hey, great news, everybody. We're 112 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: going to do three scenes from the play in front 113 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: of the whole school during a special assembly in the afternoon. 114 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: And we were all like, absolutely not, no, no way, 115 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: that's that's like, this is gonna be horrible, Like we 116 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: already get beat up on the bus ride home. Absolutely not. 117 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: They don't need to see me in silver makeup being 118 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: the tin Man, you know. And the director was like, 119 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: then this play is not going up at all if 120 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: you don't have the guts to do this, and so 121 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: we were forced to do it. The students all come 122 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: into the auditorium, they're already yelling things to make fun 123 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: of us, like we can hear them from backstage, and 124 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: I go out for my third scene. It was the 125 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: scene when the tin Man gets his heart from the 126 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: whizz or the Wizard of Us and I'm supposed to 127 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: take that hard around my neck and go to the 128 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: center of the stage. And the line was all you 129 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: find ladies out there, watch out. And I was dreading 130 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: saying this because I knew for nerdy, fourteen year old 131 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: me that was just gonna be endless torment. People are 132 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: just gonna repeat that line. So you've heard this phrase 133 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: actors being in the zone, right. This was the first 134 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: time that I remember being in the zone I apparently, 135 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: and there's a video evidence of this. I had the 136 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: heart around my neck. I, instead of staying in the 137 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: some of the stage, walked to the very edge of 138 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: the stage and in the cockiest bravado that I could muster, 139 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: I looked at the audience and I said, all you 140 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: find ladies out there, and then I did this massive 141 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: pelvic thrust and I said watch out, and the crowd 142 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: went wild. Everyone started laughing. Ladies, the girls started screaming. 143 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: Everyone was on their feet applauding. It was a standing ovation. 144 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: And on the bus ride on the way home, all 145 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: the soccer players started applauding, and I thought they were kidding, 146 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: and they said, dude, that was so funny. We had 147 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: no idea that that's the kind of thing you guys 148 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: were working on, and it totally just broke down this wall. Now, look, 149 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: aside from the problematic nature of like why was the 150 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: onus on me to not be bullied? It was well, 151 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: but but you take the situation and instead of shrinking 152 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: from it, you go deeper into it. For sure, reverse 153 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: the narrative so that you're in control of this that 154 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: you asian. So that was that sort of divine intervention 155 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: of the zone totally. Did your parents come and see 156 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: the performance? Yea. So they came and saw it, and 157 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: I think they thought it was good. They thought it 158 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: was it was fun. And did you do the hip threat? Did? 159 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: I thought? I thought I was going to get in 160 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: trouble when we got off stage at the assembly, and 161 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: the director instead was like, that was amazing to do 162 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: that again, like okay, cool, great? Uh and in hairness 163 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: like that. That's why I love comedy, right, It can 164 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: bring people together in a world, especially now, a world 165 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: that's so polarizing, and so I still love that. And 166 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: my parents didn't necessarily understand that that was a love 167 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: that went beyond just a hobby, and I get it. 168 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: I mean, for context, you know, their immigrants. They moved 169 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: to the States in the in the early seventies, and 170 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: my dad is an engineer and that was what allowed 171 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: him to come to America. The fourteen year old me, 172 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: of course, didn't care about any of that. I was like, okay, 173 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: I don't care why you don't think the arts are 174 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: a viable career. All I know is I'm this fourteen 175 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: year old who was born and raised in New Jersey 176 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: and I want to be an actor. So there's definitely 177 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: some tension growing up there. Did you resent that at 178 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: all or did you feel it or did they try 179 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: to stop you in writing this book? I called my 180 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: parents so many times because I wanted to talk to 181 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: them about how much of what I felt was accurate. 182 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: And I said, Hey, on a scale one to tend, 183 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: how embarrassed were you of me when all your friends 184 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: would come over for a family gathering and all the 185 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: other kids would say they wanted to go to med 186 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: school and people asked me, and I would say, I 187 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: want to go to film school or I want to 188 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 1: be an actor. How embarrassed on a scale one to tend? 189 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: And my parents got really quiet, and they said, I 190 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: don't know why you think we were embarrassed. How did 191 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: you get that into your head? We were never embarrassed. 192 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: We were scared because we just didn't think that somebody 193 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: from our community could have a career in the arts, 194 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: nor did we know that that was a viable career 195 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: because we didn't have that background. I thought that was 196 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: so interesting being an actor. In becoming an actor is 197 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: fraught in the in the best best of all times, 198 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: and whenever I hear somebody is in it, I I 199 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: sort of say, oh, dear God, I'm so sorry, I'm 200 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: so sorry. But you had the extra layer of of 201 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: like racism in that. Can you talk a little bit 202 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: about your early experience with that? That was the one 203 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: piece that I hadn't necessarily anticipated. So my acting teacher 204 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: had always said, you know, here are the odds. Whenever 205 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: any of you start pursuing a career, you know, casting 206 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: directors and producers will always only allow you to audition 207 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: for things that they think you're physically right for. That's 208 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: just the reality of when you start your career. It 209 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: doesn't go away, by the way exactly ever, unfortunately right, 210 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: And so the way that it was explained to us 211 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: was like, look, and this turned out to be true. Obviously, 212 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, you you walk in to an audition, they're 213 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: going to tell you no because you're too tall, you're 214 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: too short, you're too fat, you're too skinny, all of 215 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: those things, and you're just gonna have to deal with that. 216 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: You can't let that get to you. What I wasn't 217 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: really prepared for is that, especially in those days, and 218 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: thankfully the industry has changed a lot in beautiful ways, 219 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: but if you were an ethnic performer, you didn't have 220 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: the luxury of being too tall, too short, too fat, 221 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: too skinny, because they usually would just say, yeah, we 222 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: don't want somebody who's brown. And that was super shocking 223 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: to me because some of the shows that I loved 224 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: that I grew up watching were like Seinfeld and Friends 225 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: and shows that took place in New York City, and 226 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: I didn't recognize at the time, I had no performers 227 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: of color on the show, not because we didn't exist, 228 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,359 Speaker 1: but because the folks making those shows wanted to exclude 229 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: those communities. And it was a different time. You know, 230 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that that doesn't exist now, not just 231 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: for the sake of like people like us being able 232 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: to have a fair shot at a job, but for audiences, 233 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: no matter what the audiences background, was there a moment 234 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: that just sort of made you almost quit because you 235 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: experienced it in your face, like why didn't you have 236 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: an accent? And one casting director was disappointed that you 237 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: weren't even what do you say? You're not even are 238 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: you even Latin? Are you? And she was disappointed that 239 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: she could that I couldn't put you in that bad 240 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: God damn it, you're not even lack. There were a 241 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: lot of moments where I I kind of thought, maybe 242 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: this isn't the right fit for me. And if I 243 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: can be a little cocky, it's not because I didn't 244 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: think that I had the chops. I just wanted a 245 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: fair shot, right if I wasn't getting an audition because 246 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: I wasn't the best person for the job, so be 247 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: it that happens, right, You go on a hundred auditions, 248 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: you only get one call back. So I get that 249 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: that that I would have been fine with. It was 250 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: the other stuff that I didn't have control over that 251 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: that I thought was um so demoralizing. And then it 252 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: finally dawned on me through these auditions that a lot 253 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: of times you get asked to put on an accent 254 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: to mask bad writing or to mask subpar writing, and 255 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: so the character you're playing automatically gets assigned these racial 256 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: or ethnic signifiers in ways that producers think are helpful 257 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: to advance the comedy, but in reality they don't do 258 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 1: anything other than connect that character to race, ethnicity, religion, 259 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: which is ultimately like super boring, right, because then you're 260 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: not playing any buddy. Um. I'll give you a quick example, 261 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: and remember the show Sabrina the Teenage which yes, yes, 262 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: with the cat, but the talking cat. So I got 263 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: to audition for this show once and I was super excited. 264 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: It was only three lines, and I needed credits on 265 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: my resume, right, So my agent at the time, who 266 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: was wonderful, she said, here's the info. Here are the 267 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: three lines. I created this whole back story for this 268 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: guy who was supposed to be a kid in Sabrina's 269 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: study group in college. And I was like, all right, 270 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: he's from the Pacific Northwest, and he likes small batch 271 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: organic coffee, and he probably likes Pearl Jam and Nirvana. 272 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: So I wore a flannel to the audition. I thought 273 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: I did well, and I was walking back to my 274 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: car and the casting director ran after me and he goes, hey, man, 275 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: the producers would love for you to do it again, 276 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: this time with an accent. And I was like, okay, 277 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: So again the decision was totally mine, right. I could 278 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: have said no, thank you, but I went back in 279 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: and I thought I needed credit on my resume. The 280 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: job I think paid like five bucks and my rent 281 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: was like five fifty for the month, so that was huge. 282 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: And I said the thing that I usually say when 283 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,599 Speaker 1: people ask for that, where they said we'd love for 284 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: you to do it again with an accent, and I said, sure, 285 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: what kind of accent would you like? I can do 286 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Scottish, Irish Portuguese. You know, I just like went 287 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: through the list. They were obviously not amused. Uh, And 288 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: so I you know, I made the choice to do it. 289 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: Nobody was forcing me to do that. But you know, 290 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: not to offend anybody that that the racial stuff didn't 291 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: bother me. But the bigger issue as an artist is 292 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: that's a boring choice, man. Like It's just I can 293 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: be funny based on the merits of how I can 294 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: create this character. That's literally what I do. Just let 295 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: me do my thing. I promise you it'll be funny. 296 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that there's a space for stereotypes in comedy. 297 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: I definitely think there's a role for stereotypes. Also, the 298 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: you know that old adage of stereotypes come from some 299 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: element of truth, right, and so depending on the comedic bit, 300 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: if you're stripping away context or adding context, or subverting 301 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: something that used to be a stereotype to make it funny. 302 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: For a different reason, I welcome the reality that audiences 303 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: palettes have changed, and so if my job is to 304 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: be funny, I have to evolve with what their pelts 305 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: are and to sort of update my jokes for things 306 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: that people are going to find funny. I don't see 307 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: that as limiting. I actually see that as the opposite, 308 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: where it makes me have to get my chops together. 309 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: You know, well, it's funny because when I when I 310 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: did Suddenly Susan, when I was like, the first time 311 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: I was really well, the first time I was ever 312 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: really really allowed to be funny was and Friends. But 313 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that I had to hook into, 314 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: which I didn't resent at all, I loved was the 315 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: physical comedy so that people could laugh at me falling 316 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: on my face or here's the tall girl. Here's the 317 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: big girl. You know, it goes deeper than falling, you know, 318 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: slipping on the banana peel. I mean, it's just always funny. 319 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: You just can't so seeing me get slapped in the 320 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: back with a huge fish and knocked down, or you know, 321 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: or fall off a stool or something, it was sort 322 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: of bizarrely liberating. And I remember thinking, oh my god, 323 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: because they had me falling off something almost every week. 324 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: And I finally said that. I was like, can I 325 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: not all it's just fall off a chair or a 326 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: stool or something. Can you can we make the comedy 327 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: more more funny. But I do think that that's a 328 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: really interesting conversation, and you just make it much more 329 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: sort of intelligent. When you were cast in Van Wilder, 330 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: you said it was a brown catch twenty two. Can 331 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: you explain that? Yeah? Sure, And I'm glad you you 332 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: you asked about Van Wilder when you were talking about 333 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: falling off the stool and getting hit with a fish, 334 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I should. I should talk about Van 335 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: Wilder because it was my first real, big, big movie 336 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: and there was a scene where my character is uh 337 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: the whole movie, he's trying to ask out this woman. 338 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: She agrees to go out with him, and they're they're 339 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: about to try to make love in his room and 340 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: he sets all these scented candles around the room and 341 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: she is putting massage oil on him. He's massaging her. 342 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: By the way, like just keep in mind early two 343 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: thousand's team comedy, so not not particularly high brow. But 344 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: then my character's back catches on fire from one of 345 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: the sentence candles, and the rest of the scene, I'm 346 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: running around the room with my back on fire, which, 347 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: by the way, they that was a practical stunt, so 348 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: I had to wear a prosthetic back. They lit it 349 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: on fire. They're all these guys with essentially hazmat suits 350 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: standing around in case something went wrong. But didn't they 351 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: do it like the first scene was the first day, 352 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: and you're like, why did they do it the first day? 353 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: And they're like, well, because if something happened to you, 354 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: we'd beat We wouldn't have to reshoot all. If you die, 355 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: we can replace you. Really totally, like we'll just replace 356 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: you there. But that's an example of like, yeah, aside 357 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: from the sort of ethnic stereotyping question and all that equation, 358 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: the idea that like I got to light my back 359 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: on fire and run around. You talked to stunt guys 360 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: today and they're like, what producer in the right mind, 361 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: let an actor do that for real? And I was like, 362 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: they said they wanted the wide shot, the special effects 363 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: were too expensive. So we did it and it was 364 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: a blast. But the Brown catch twenty two is something 365 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: that I call it this because it was the thing 366 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: of like, okay, you in order for this is by 367 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: the way, for any actor, right in order to get 368 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: your foot in the door, you have to take small 369 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: parts and that builds up your resume and the credits 370 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: on your resume, and then your agent hopefully can open 371 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: more and more doors for you. The challenge with a 372 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: lot of ethnic performers and a lot of women as well, 373 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: was that the only roles that you're being offered are 374 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: the ones that are sort of reductionists or sort of 375 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: stereotypical and not particularly challenging. And so the Brown Catch 376 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: twenty two was like, do I take those in order 377 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: to get my foot in the door for something bigger, 378 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: because I'm not able to audition for something bigger unless 379 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: I've done those. So it was that sort of thing. 380 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: But but yeah, I mean the the advice that I 381 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: got from the people who I was close to and 382 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: had a lot of mentors who were really good about 383 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: the practicality, which I don't think we talked about nuance 384 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: enough these days, and that you do have to make 385 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: tough choices that are sometimes less than ideal in any 386 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: any job. But then for you, the next sort of 387 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: watershed moment in a way came as You're a Stoner 388 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: when you were in the comedy Harold and Kumart go 389 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: to to White Castle. You know, how did that role 390 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: come about? Really? I think the reason that I got 391 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: that part. And by the way, when I read that script, 392 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: it was the funniest script that I had read. And 393 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: I called John Hurwitz, who I had met at a 394 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: birthday party. He's one of the co creators of the franchise, 395 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: and I called him up and I said, hey, man, 396 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: thank you for sending me the script. You're never gonna 397 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: sell it because studios are never going to green light 398 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: a movie with two Asian American men. So when you 399 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: can't sell it, why don't you call me and like, 400 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: let's find some venture capitalists who can throw together a 401 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: couple of hundred grand and maybe we can make it. 402 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: And he laughed at me and he said, I am 403 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: sorry that that's been your experience, but no, we're selling 404 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: this to a major studio. And I said, no, man, 405 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm telling you the studio is just going to change 406 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: the characters to be black and white. And he interrupted me. 407 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: He's like, well, listen, cal we're making a movie called 408 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: Harold and Kumar Go to Whitecastle, not David and Jason 409 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: go to McDonald's. So we're we are selling this movie 410 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: and they did. They sold it. And one of the 411 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: reasons that I ultimately got the part, you know, there 412 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: was no shortage of actors to play of the roles 413 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: that John cho and I ultimately played, but I was 414 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: one of the few brown actors who had had a 415 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: studio movie under his belt because I had done Van 416 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: Wilder and so let's cast him in this. And of 417 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: course there's there's no stereotyping in Harold and Kumargo to 418 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: White Castle. It's subverting them. And actually, had I not 419 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: gotten Harold and Kumaro to White Castle, which was completely 420 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: career defining for me, and I'm very indebted to the 421 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: fans of that movie. One of my favorite art films 422 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: that I had the chance to work on is called 423 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: The Namesake, based on the novel by Jimpaliery, and I 424 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: would not have gotten the part in The Namesake were 425 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: it not for Harold and Kumar, because Mier and I 426 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: are who directed that film her then fourteen year old 427 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: sons Aren was a huge Harold and Kumar fan, and 428 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: that's basically why I got to audition for the project. 429 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: And you had seen her work and we're so unbelievably 430 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: moved by it. It did mir and I are who 431 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: directed it, had done. One of her first films was 432 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: called Mississippi Massala with Denzel Washington and Street the Choree, 433 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: and I remember seeing that around the same time that 434 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: I was playing the tin man Um. I didn't realize 435 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: fully that I had never really seen people who looked 436 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: like me on screen until I saw this movie, and 437 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: I thought, why am I feeling so seen by a 438 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: film with incredibly flawed, beautifully flawed characters, all of the 439 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: things that make you human. And it kind of dawned 440 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: on me like, Wow, we don't really see ourselves unless 441 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: we're stereotypes or cartoon characters, and so so it really 442 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: it meant a lot, and for for friends I have 443 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: this conversation with friends a lot. If you've always grown 444 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: up with the privilege of seeing characters who look like 445 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: you on screen, you sort of don't feel the thing 446 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: that I couldn't quite put my finger on, which was 447 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: if you don't see yourself, you kind of feel like 448 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: your options in the world might be limited, like maybe 449 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: certain things aren't for you. One of the reasons that 450 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: project was so special was both artistically and in terms 451 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: of who was behind it. A lot of things really 452 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: came full circle for me. The idea that I could 453 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: be this storyteller or this actor was in some way 454 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: because of her early films that that inspired me. Okay, 455 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: first of all, you're you're you're my friend. Now you're 456 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: gonna tell you that now we're friends. But I think 457 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: your life has been so extraordinary. But the pivot to 458 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: politics is seemingly unexpected. How did you get involved? Initially? 459 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 1: So the I had no desire at all to do 460 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: anything in politics. And for folks who are listening, who 461 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: if the only thing you know about me is that 462 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: I played a stone or three times and then went 463 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: to go work for the president of the United States, 464 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: you are correct to wonder why and how and whether 465 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: I was qualified. So, when I was working on House, 466 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: Olivia Wilde, who you know, fantastic actor and director, She 467 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: was on the show with me, and she had a 468 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: plus one to an Obama campaign event, and I very 469 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 1: begrudgingly said that I would go with her, even though 470 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: I had no desire to sort of do anything political. 471 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: And I was really inspired by what I saw at 472 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 1: that event. And so she and I and Tatiana Ali 473 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: and Megalan Chikwauke were the four artists who signed up 474 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: that week. This was back in October of two thousand 475 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: and seven, to go to Iowa, the first state to 476 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: vote in the primary process, to help out the Obama campaign. 477 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: And then I went there and was and fell in 478 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: love with the fact that it was just people who 479 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: were doing something that they believed in and and I 480 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: had the chance to work on that campaign then for 481 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: for the next roughly year or so. And that's that's 482 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: sort of what opened the door. Um. I also think 483 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: what was really eye opening for me was, you know, 484 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 1: I get why there was a lot of media attention 485 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: when I left the show House to take the sabbatical 486 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: from acting and go go work in the White House 487 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: for a couple of years. Believe they let you out 488 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: of the count community just like that. That's a double 489 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: edged sort. Why you're like thank you, I'm not really 490 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean thank you. The way that that went down, 491 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: I had when I got the offer to work at 492 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: the White House, I had called my agent at the 493 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: time and told her and I said, can you please 494 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: chat with Fox and with House to see if there's 495 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: a way to write me off? And she called back 496 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: almost immediately and said, they said, no, there's no way 497 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: they can do it. So I actually went to David Shore, 498 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: who created House, and I made a point with them, 499 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: sat down with him in his office and I said, 500 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: I know the answer has already been no, and I 501 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: already know that somebody's approached you about this, but I 502 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: got this offer to work for President Obama, and I 503 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: would love for at least you to consider helping me 504 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,239 Speaker 1: do that. And he goes, I had no idea. This 505 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 1: is the first time hearing of this. You got an 506 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: offer to work at the White House. That's so cool, 507 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: And how did you get the job in the administration 508 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: because you didn't in a sense, you didn't really advocate 509 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: for yourself. No, I didn't. I know this is so silly. Um, 510 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: so I work you would. You had worked for the 511 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: campaign for like a year, and anyone who worked on 512 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: that campaign got a link right around inauguration. I got 513 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: before or after the election that said, if you're interested 514 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: in working for the incoming administration, upload your resume to 515 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: this website at change dot gov. And so I uploaded 516 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: a resume, and I thought, I guess I don't want 517 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: to bother anybody, right, Like, if I'm qualified to work 518 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: at the White House, somebody will call me, But I 519 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: certainly don't want to upload my resume and then make 520 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: a hundred calls like, Hey, just so you guys know, 521 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: I'm super interested, right because A I was already on 522 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: a TV show that was my dream job, and B 523 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: I didn't want it to seem like, oh, cal Penn 524 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: thinks that just because he's on this TV show he 525 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: can ask for a job at the White House. I 526 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: don't know. I didn't know how that worked. So I applied. 527 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: The only person in the world who I told was 528 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: my manager by acting manager. But you had a direct 529 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: line of communication too well by I did, and people 530 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: forget people forget this when you start working for any 531 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: political campaign early enough you get to know the candidate. 532 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: It's usually a very small operation, so you do get 533 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: to know people really well. Part of it is probably 534 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: I felt like there was a bit of imposter syndrome there, like, wow, 535 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: I can't believe that I would actually be considered. And 536 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: then there was another part that was just very self 537 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: conscious and maybe I am really qualified and they'll just 538 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: figure it out. You know. I don't know which it is. 539 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: But at inauguration, Mrs Obama, who I had not met before, 540 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: came over and said something very casual like I hope 541 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: you stay involved. And my manager was standing next to me, 542 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 1: he was my plus one, and he goes, well, you know, 543 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: Cal applied for a job, right, And she goes, what 544 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: do you mean, and he goes, yeah, he applied for 545 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: a job at the White House and nobody even called 546 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: him back. Sounds like dude, please not now, not now, 547 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: And Mrs Obama says, oh, who did you apply with? 548 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: And I just blurted out, oh, I just put my 549 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: resume on change dot gov, the website that you guys 550 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: sent around, and she looked at me like I was insane, 551 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: and she called the President elect over and made me 552 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: repeat what I had done, and then he basically said, Okay, 553 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: let's if you're serious about this, let's figure out the 554 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: real the reason I even tell the story, Like, hey, 555 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: it's obviously funny and self deprecating and ridiculous. But let's 556 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: say you started at a small startup firm, right, and 557 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: you worked there for a year, and that firm got 558 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: bought out or that firm expanded in a huge way, 559 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: and you were really proud of the work you did 560 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: and you wanted to continue working for the new company. 561 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: Don't just upload your resume. You would call your boss 562 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, man, I am so proud of 563 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: the work we did together. I would love to be considered. 564 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: And what ways did working because you kind of went 565 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: in with zero experience? I mean that's another Now, what 566 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: moment you all of a sudden you find your moment, 567 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: you find yourself, Oh, I'm in the White House. I'm 568 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: working in the White House, And what ways did that 569 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: change you? I left working in the administration with a 570 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: lot of reverence and inspiration for the process of what's possible. 571 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: And here's why the I have the chance to work 572 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: with thousands and thousands of people who were taking a 573 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: leave of absence from their private sector jobs, just like 574 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: I was. Many of them were teachers or or some doctors, 575 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,239 Speaker 1: some people who were in law school. Um, you know, 576 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: there was no rhyme or reason to people's background necessarily, 577 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: It's just that they wanted to do what they also 578 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: thought was the right thing to do. That's something that 579 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: happens regardless of which administration is in power. Other thing 580 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: was my job was One of my jobs was as 581 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: the President's liaison to young Americans. I worked in the 582 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: Outreach Office. That meant that, because Obama loved hearing ideas 583 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: that he disagreed with, our mandate was to meet with 584 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: people who we agree and disagree with. So that meant 585 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: that in my case, you know, young Republicans were coming 586 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: in to talk about things like healthcare and climate change, 587 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: and we were trying to come up with solutions that 588 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: everybody could sort of compromise on. It didn't mean that 589 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: the President wasn't going to advocate for what he wanted 590 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: and what he thought his base wanted, but it meant 591 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: that that we realized the only way to actually accomplish 592 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: things was to listen to each other and to have 593 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 1: conversations that are I think, really tough to have today. 594 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: But that was the biggest takeaway from me, was the 595 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: idea that that these things are still possible. I wanted 596 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: to ask you just briefly about your relationship, yeah, because 597 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: it's so beautiful to me. But I'm curious as to 598 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: why or how you were able to keep it private 599 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: for so long. Yeah, of course, it's so funny. When 600 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: I was writing it, there are two chapters in the 601 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: book that have nothing to do with merit. You just 602 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: say it though. It's like in the book I went back. 603 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: I was like, there's a chapter about how my partner 604 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: Josh and I met and fell in love. We've been 605 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: to there eleven years. There's another chapter about going to 606 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: a strip club drunk with friends a couple of years 607 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: after college for a bachelor party. Both of those chapters 608 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: are the only two chapters that I just didn't think 609 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: twice about writing because they had nothing to do with merit. 610 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: They're what editors call a palette cleansing chapter. Because you 611 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: have serious things, you have discovery thing, Okay, here's how 612 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: I achieved this in my line of work. And then 613 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: here's just like a chapter that has nothing to do 614 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: with your success. But then the book came out, and 615 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: I realized my naivete was understandably a lot of journalists, 616 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: especially those who really like profit off of the clicks, 617 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: are like gay Kalpenn writes gay gay only book about 618 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: being gay, very gay book only, And I was like, 619 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: oh no, that's I was like, well, I'm happy to 620 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: share that chapter in the book. That's why I wrote it. 621 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: But I did not think it was gonna distract from 622 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: what the book is actually about. So in retrospect, I 623 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: probably should have like given that chapter to The Atlantic 624 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: or the you know, the New Yorker or something like that, 625 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: with like, hey, do you guys want to run this 626 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: six months before my book comes out. But that said, 627 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: to your point, like there was so much love about 628 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: sharing my story, there was not, I think, a desire 629 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: to sort of hide. I certainly didn't feel like I 630 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: was living a life in the closet. You know. I 631 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: I did come out to myself or figure out my 632 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: own sexuality relatively later in life. You know. I meet 633 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: friends who are like, yeah, I knew when I was eight. 634 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: I was like, man, good for you. I was not 635 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: that kid, you know. It was a little later in 636 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: life for me. But then when my partner Josh and 637 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: I met in d C. He is an incredibly private person, 638 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: sort of like my parents, and so the last thing 639 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: he wants is like we go to movie premieres together. 640 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: He'll come to work events with me, the whole thing. 641 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: But he and my parents when we go to premiers 642 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: that are like cool, we know you have to do 643 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: the photo line and the red carpet because you have 644 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: to sell your movi V. We're going to grab the 645 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: popcorn and go through the side entrance and just see 646 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: you with the seats because it's it's um. You know. 647 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: As someone who has never been able to keep anything private, 648 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: all of my grades from school were published in Life magazine. 649 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: My first period was in People magazine, just because I 650 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: don't know what it was a slow news day, I 651 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: don't know, but yeah, you hit the nail on the head. 652 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 1: It's not you know. I think people feel that if 653 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: you're choosing not to share a certain aspect of your life, 654 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: that that means that you're either uncomfortable about it or 655 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: you're ashamed about it. And the contrary, I've found for 656 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: many of us who live in the public eye and 657 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: prefer having a certain modicum of privacy is the opposite 658 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: is true. I am so proud and thrilled of who 659 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: I am, of my exactly. It comes from a place 660 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: of respect. Yes, um, do you have a date set 661 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: for the wedding? We were could be a flower girl? Please? 662 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, would you when I come? I want 663 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: to drive me. I'm coming all right. I mean this 664 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: is going to know your local to you. I'm really 665 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: good with with family members. Parents will talk your ear off, 666 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: They'll love it. That was the hilarious Cal Pen Keep 667 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: an eye out for pictures of his wedding featuring yours 668 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: truly as a flower girl. I'm just kidding, but Cal, 669 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: if if you want me, I'm I am free. You know. 670 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: If you want to hear more from Cal, pick up 671 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: a copy of his book. You can't be serious. If 672 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: you want to hear more from me, subscribe to this 673 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: podcast Now What with Brookshields on the I Heart Radio app, 674 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Now What 675 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: is produced by the wonderful Julia Weaver with help from 676 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: Darby Masters. Our executive producer is Christina Everett. The show 677 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: is mixed by Bahid Fraser and Christian Bowman. A special 678 00:32:53,440 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: thanks to Nicky Etre and Will Pearson eight