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Speaker 1: Whether or not you think black women are human is

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Speaker 1: quite literally irrelevant, because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: the economy is still going to take my money.

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Speaker 2: There are No Girls on the Internet is a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm bridget Todd, and this

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Speaker 2: is there are No Girls on the Internet. It has

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Speaker 2: been a rough time for layoffs across the diversity of sectors.

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Speaker 3: We've seen layoffs and media.

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Speaker 2: Here's what one producer had to say after being laid

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Speaker 2: off at CBS.

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Speaker 4: I just got laid off from my job at CBS,

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Speaker 4: and every producer on my team who got laid off

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Speaker 4: is a person of color. Every person who gets to

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Speaker 4: stay and will be relocated within the company is a

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Speaker 4: white person.

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Speaker 2: Teen Vogue wants a bastion of political coverage for young people,

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Speaker 2: laid off every black woman on their team before merging

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Speaker 2: with Regular Vogue. Not to mention tech, where layoffs have

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly impacted black women who not even that long ago,

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Speaker 2: were being told by social media that getting a cushy

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Speaker 2: job in tech was the key to economic stability long term.

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Speaker 2: So most of us are worried about the economy right now,

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Speaker 2: but at the same time we're also being told everything

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Speaker 2: is fine and that the economy is booming, So it

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Speaker 2: feels like something is an adding up. So maybe it's

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Speaker 2: time to look at one of the only economic indicators

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Speaker 2: that actually tells the truth, black women. Because if you

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Speaker 2: want to know how healthy the economy really.

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Speaker 3: Is, look at us. We're the canary in the coal mine.

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Speaker 2: When things start to crack and layoffs start to hit,

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Speaker 2: when wages stall, it shows up in.

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Speaker 3: Our numbers first.

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Speaker 2: So when you see a spike in unemployment among black women,

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Speaker 2: that's not just a statistic, that's a warning shot. And

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, that warning shot has already been fired.

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Speaker 2: More than three hundred thousand Black women have left the workforce.

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Speaker 2: In a piece for Time magazine called rising unemployment among

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Speaker 2: Black women is a bad sign for the economy, and

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Speaker 2: A gifty, author of the new book The Double Tax,

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Speaker 2: and Mary Anne Cooper, senior research scholar at Stanford University's

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Speaker 2: VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, are sounding the alarm about

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Speaker 2: black women's economic realities and why all of us should

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Speaker 2: be paying attention. So I have this sense that we're

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Speaker 2: not being told the full story when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the economy. We're being told the economy is great, no problems,

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Speaker 2: it's booming.

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Speaker 1: Yet everyone I know is worried. How can we get

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Speaker 1: to a more complete story.

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Speaker 5: It has been a repeated pattern over time that black

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Speaker 5: women are the Canarian, the coal mine. They're the first

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Speaker 5: to let us know that there may be something about

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Speaker 5: to go down in the economy in a negative direction,

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Speaker 5: and that very often those warning signs are ignored, and

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Speaker 5: so Anna and I were seeing that play out. But yes,

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Speaker 5: it can be really difficult to know what's happening, which

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Speaker 5: is why you go back to historical patterns. And when

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Speaker 5: we went back and really looked at everything, we saw

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Speaker 5: that black women right now are.

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Speaker 6: It's really it's really troubling.

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Speaker 1: Even in recent times, I've seeing sort of an uptick

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Speaker 1: in black women's unemployment or black folks unemployment and then

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Speaker 1: seeing some sort of economic crisis follow It's been interesting.

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Speaker 1: I've been following the discourse on econ Twitter, which has

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Speaker 1: essentially become econ Blue Sky, where you know, Karns are

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out right, like, you know, are black

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Speaker 1: folks actually the real canary and the coal mine? Because

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Speaker 1: they say, you know, it's not in the data. We're

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Speaker 1: not seeing that, but I would argue it's because the

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Speaker 1: folks who do ask those types of questions, their analysis

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Speaker 1: is not really lifted up in the mainstream discourse about

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Speaker 1: the economy. And so when you kind of asked the

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Speaker 1: question of you know, are we being told everything?

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Speaker 3: I would actually argue.

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Speaker 1: That people are providing answers to better understand the economy

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Speaker 1: as a whole, especially as it relates to marginalized groups.

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Speaker 1: But some of those answers are quite frankly, not the amplified,

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Speaker 1: and that's because of who's actually providing those answers in

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Speaker 1: the first place.

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Speaker 3: I feel that.

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Speaker 2: That's always tail as old as time. It's not that

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Speaker 2: nobody is providing this information or doing this work just

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Speaker 2: about eddiething. You can imagine there is somebody who has

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Speaker 2: made this their life's work. The problem is that conversation

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Speaker 2: might not being be amplified, and frankly, it might not

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Speaker 2: be getting to the people who need to hear it most, right, right,

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Speaker 2: that's exactly right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, And that's another point that Anna and I

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Speaker 5: have talked about as we're working on this piece, is

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Speaker 5: you know, historically black women, like with the Great Recession,

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Speaker 5: you know, we were seeing foreclosure rates go up among

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Speaker 5: that group in particular, and even kind of in the

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Speaker 5: two thousand and six to two thousand and eight period,

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Speaker 5: you know, rising, you know, problems saying bills, all of

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Speaker 5: those things, but all too often, even the scholars and

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Speaker 5: the economists at the time who are flagging that it

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Speaker 5: gets overlooked by the mainstream however you want to define

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Speaker 5: that mainstream media other things. And what's bad about that,

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Speaker 5: First of all, it's it's leaving black women in the

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Speaker 5: eye of economic storm. But it's also means that we

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Speaker 5: lose the opportunity to intervene more quickly and start to

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Speaker 5: prevent this widening economic downturn. And so I think that

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Speaker 5: the pattern, you know, social patterns don't just happen.

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Speaker 6: They're not just accidents.

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Speaker 5: And I think it's just a larger reflection of how

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Speaker 5: black women are are ignored and overlooked more broadly in

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Speaker 5: our society.

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Speaker 1: Even this discourse that we're having right now is quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: to me and many other Black.

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Speaker 3: Women who study these topics, really surprising. Right.

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Speaker 1: So, when I saw that the lead story in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times Times was, you know, featuring the work

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Speaker 1: of Cottacker Roy around three hundred thousand black women leaving

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Speaker 1: the labor force.

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Speaker 3: This is not something that would have been a headline

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Speaker 3: even two years ago, right, And.

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Speaker 1: So there is sort of this shift now that we're

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Speaker 1: starting to see around at least black women being seen

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Speaker 1: as important to the economy, and you know, our position

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Speaker 1: being acknowledged as something that's meaningful to have this country

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Speaker 1: moves forward, but also you know how our job market

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Speaker 1: moves forward, how our labor force moves forward, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's actually a good thing that

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Speaker 1: we're starting to have this conversation out in the open.

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Speaker 1: And I'm really glad that marian and I have been

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Speaker 1: able to contribute towards that discourse as well. So it's

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Speaker 1: great that people are talking about this issue more. What

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Speaker 1: do you think has made people pay more attention to

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Speaker 1: black women's economic realities and what it means for all

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Speaker 1: of us. Why are we suddenly seeing headlines about this.

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Speaker 3: I think folks are just realizing, wait a minute, that's

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Speaker 3: a problem.

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Speaker 1: I would also say too, that the speed at which

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Speaker 1: black would have exited the labor force is very concerning

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Speaker 1: to a lot of people, because at least to me

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Speaker 1: and Marianna and I have had a conversation about this.

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Speaker 1: Another way to reframe this discussion is three hundred thousand breadwinners,

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Speaker 1: three hundred thousand taxpayers. Right, So we're not just talking

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Speaker 1: about this random minority women group over there that's not

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Speaker 1: really relevant to our overall economy in our society. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about people who contribute actual dollars to the GDP

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Speaker 1: of this country. What I like to say is, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether or not you think black women are human is

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Speaker 1: quite literally irrelevant because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: the economy is still gonna take my money, sure will.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna go ahead and benchmark on your

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Speaker 1: bigotry because your bigotry ignores reality.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean to build on some of those themes.

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Speaker 5: I think the other dynamic that's happening is our government

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Speaker 5: is telling us that these issues are are not important anymore,

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Speaker 5: and the going after and banning certain words, pulling funding

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Speaker 5: on certain kinds of studies. I think there is a

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Speaker 5: societal pushback to that, which is to say, actually, I'm

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Speaker 5: going to want to know more about those things. So

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Speaker 5: when you know, when when women and racism and those

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Speaker 5: kinds of words become targeted by the government and essentially

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Speaker 5: effectively trying to silence any research or discussion on those things.

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Speaker 5: That what that can do is say, huh, why why

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Speaker 5: are they trying to do that and putting more putting

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Speaker 5: the idea into people's minds that maybe we should know

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Speaker 5: more about this. So I think there's that that's part

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Speaker 5: of the story as well.

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Speaker 6: And then you know, we were living.

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Speaker 5: Through a wild moment historically, I mean the pandemic. We're

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Speaker 5: not that many years out from the start of it,

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Speaker 5: and it during that time with the she session and

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Speaker 5: that black women were hit you know, the heart, one

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Speaker 5: of the hardest, the groups that experienced, you know, some

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Speaker 5: of the biggest shocks and unemployment. And so that story

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Speaker 5: is not that far off the radar either. So I

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Speaker 5: think there's several different factors that creates the market and interest,

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Speaker 5: if you will, and all of this, and it's it's

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Speaker 5: frankly great to see and it is a change.

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Speaker 3: And you really spoke to something I think is super important, this.

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Speaker 2: Idea of well, you can you know, go along with

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Speaker 2: this administration not not see race and putting that in

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Speaker 2: heavy scare quotes, not think about things like gender, DEI.

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Speaker 3: Whatever, whatever you want to say.

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Speaker 2: But it's like that Beyonce quote, I always come back

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Speaker 2: to you when you play me, you play yourself right,

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Speaker 2: And so if you if you buy into that, you're

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Speaker 2: just going to end up being in the dark about

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Speaker 2: what is happening economically in your own household, regardless of

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Speaker 2: whether or not you're a black woman, regardless of how

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Speaker 2: you feel about black women personally.

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Speaker 3: First of all, we love Beyonce in.

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Speaker 1: This household, so thank you so much for or quoting

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Speaker 1: our good sis.

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Speaker 3: I will say too, you know.

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of folks being like you know,

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Speaker 1: I hate DEI I don't like diversity. I don't like

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Speaker 1: And the gag of the matter is maybe this country

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Speaker 1: is becoming diverse, whether you like it or not. Demographically,

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Speaker 1: we are headed towards a more diverse country, whether you

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Speaker 1: like it or not.

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Speaker 3: Gen Z was essentially half.

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Speaker 1: Minority, half majority right, majority white. Jen Alpha is now

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Speaker 1: majority minority, and the generation as for that is going

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Speaker 1: to be substantively majority minority rather than just majority white.

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Speaker 1: And I think that it's just irresponsible to not be

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Speaker 1: considering other groups because dealing with their inequalities makes you uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: It's irresponsible, right, because at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: These are real people, these are real lives. Folks are

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Speaker 1: trying to make a buck. Folks are trying to make

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Speaker 1: a life. They're trying to make a living. And so

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Speaker 1: it's in nobody's best interest if a segment of our

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Speaker 1: population is not you know, reaping the fruits of their labor,

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Speaker 1: or are not benefiting from the economy that they're contributing towards. Right,

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Speaker 1: it builds resentment, but it also, quite frankly, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of stupid. Right, so people are like, oh, like, I'm

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Speaker 1: so sorry, I'm trying to be polite.

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Speaker 3: I can't. So it's like people are trying to say, like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you know, why do we have to care about

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Speaker 1: those black folks because those black folks make up twelve

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Speaker 1: percent of your population. Let me put it like this,

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Speaker 1: if twelve percent of your body wasn't working, do you

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Speaker 1: think you would be.

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Speaker 3: Functioning right now? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: Not?

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Speaker 3: All right then, and I rest my case.

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Speaker 5: Well, and just that we won't have you know, there's

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Speaker 5: all these these forces that are coming together to shape,

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Speaker 5: to shape the dynamics that that Anna is laying out,

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Speaker 5: but that that we won't have enough people. I mean,

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Speaker 5: we already know that with the lower you know, lower

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Speaker 5: birth rates and things like that, and so we're going

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Speaker 5: to need not just that our own population has become

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Speaker 5: much more diverse, and especially in the younger you know,

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Speaker 5: now I think we're jen alpha is on the scene,

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Speaker 5: but we will need immigration.

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Speaker 6: There is actually really no way that.

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Speaker 5: We'll be able to sustain ourselves, like economically in terms

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Speaker 5: of innovation and just jobs that need to be filled. So,

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Speaker 5: you know, dealing with questions around you know, race and

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Speaker 5: ethnicity and you know, immigrant status and all those things engineerous.

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Speaker 5: It's not going away, despite people maybe wanting it to

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Speaker 5: go away.

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Speaker 2: Both of you have referenced this idea of black women

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Speaker 2: as these canaries and a coal mine when it comes

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Speaker 2: to the health of our economy. We have talked about

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Speaker 2: how black women and the health and well being of

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Speaker 2: black woman is an indicator, like we talk about it

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Speaker 2: when we talk about like the health and well being

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Speaker 2: of the internet. How black women are treated on these

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Speaker 2: spaces really does say a lot about the overall safety

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Speaker 2: and health of these spaces. But when it comes to

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Speaker 2: jobs and the economy, what does it look like in

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Speaker 2: practice for black women to be these canaries in the

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Speaker 2: coal mine.

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Speaker 3: Of the health of the economy.

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Speaker 1: So I'm a a ciple of a wonderful framework that's

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Speaker 1: been coined by Janelle Jones, one of my dearest friends

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Speaker 1: in the economic space, and.

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Speaker 3: It's called Black Women Best.

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Speaker 1: Black Women Best basically argues that the best outcome for

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Speaker 1: Black women is a better outcome for everyone else.

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Speaker 3: I think the way that Janelle and Angela.

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Speaker 1: Hanks have put it, along with Kendra Bozarth, is if

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Speaker 1: the economy is working for Black women, it's more than

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Speaker 1: likely working for everyone else.

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Speaker 3: And I think the.

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Speaker 1: Way to frame this is, you know, think about a

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Speaker 1: ven diagram, but each circle represents a different group within

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Speaker 1: our society. Black women are dead center of the overlapping

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Speaker 1: circles in our society.

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Speaker 3: Right, we're working class, we're middle class. Some times we're poor.

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Speaker 1: We're highly educated, we have student debt, we're breadwinners for mothers,

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Speaker 1: we're caregivers. Right, we serve a very important economic role

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Speaker 1: amongst women.

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Speaker 3: In our society. Specifically, black women have the highest labor

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Speaker 3: force participation rate, meaning that we work, quite frankly, the

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Speaker 3: hardest within our labor force, within our job market. And so.

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Speaker 1: When we think about policies, especially economic policies, dealing with

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Speaker 1: sort of the job market, the labor force as it

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Speaker 1: pertains to black women. Black women are really telling you.

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Speaker 3: About a lot of people's different experiences.

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Speaker 1: In one fell swoop, right, Because if we are a

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Speaker 1: dead center experience for our current society, especially amongst those

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Speaker 1: who are most marginalized and who face inequality, then what's

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Speaker 1: happening to us is probably giving you insight to what's

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Speaker 1: happening to the white guy who's also struggling with the

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Speaker 1: job market, or what's happening to the Latina mother who's

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Speaker 1: also trying to make end meet. And so it's important

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Speaker 1: to pay attention to what's taking place with us as

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Speaker 1: canaries and the coal mine, so to speak, because of

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Speaker 1: these overlapping experiences that we encompass in our own lived

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Speaker 1: experience and in our own identity. But I would also

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Speaker 1: say too that the Black Women Best framework really argues

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Speaker 1: that black women.

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Speaker 3: Are the tie that lifts all boats. And so in

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Speaker 3: the book that I wrote, The Double Tax, I basically

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Speaker 3: say that what black women are currently experiencing right now

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Speaker 3: is the double tax, this compounded cost of racism and sexism, which,

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Speaker 3: like I said before, overlaps with all these other experiences

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Speaker 3: that people are dealing with.

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Speaker 1: But what I say is that if you don't address

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Speaker 1: these individual costs that these black women women of color

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Speaker 1: are dealing with day to day, they become societal.

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Speaker 3: Costs down the line.

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Speaker 1: And another way I would visualize this is what happens

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Speaker 1: to black women first in terms of the Canary and

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Speaker 1: the coal mine, is almost like your neighbor's house catching

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Speaker 1: on fire down the street. You see it's three houses down,

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Speaker 1: You see the smoke, you smell the flames, and you

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Speaker 1: saying I'm not going to pay attention. Is like you

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Speaker 1: going back into the house and being like, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go ahead and watch another episode of Love Island. That's crazy,

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Speaker 1: you know, yes, Because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: if that fire catches the next house next to you,

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Speaker 1: guess who's house is about to go up to flames.

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Speaker 3: It's about to be your house.

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Speaker 1: So and it's your best interest to assure that the

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Speaker 1: whole neighborhood doesn't catch on fire because that house was

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Speaker 1: on fire.

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Speaker 7: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So we've been using that phrase canary in the

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Speaker 2: coal mine when we talk about how harms often impact

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Speaker 2: black women before they go unchecked and harm everyone oh

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Speaker 2: so much beyond that, because it's not just that everyone

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Speaker 2: should care about what happens to black women economically, because

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Speaker 2: if we're struggling, everyone else is about to be struggling too.

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Speaker 2: It's also that we are real people with real lives

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Speaker 2: and real families and real stories who are also a

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Speaker 2: really big part of our economy. There is no economy

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Speaker 2: without black women.

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Speaker 5: Black workers aren't important demographic just like every other demographic,

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Speaker 5: because they're people in our society. And so it's it's

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Speaker 5: whether or not they're the Canarian the coal mine, and

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Speaker 5: it's sort of and people actually reached out to me

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Speaker 5: after the piece saying, you know, it's just it's not

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Speaker 5: only because they're the Canarian the coal mine that we

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Speaker 5: need to care, right So it's it's Danna's point that

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Speaker 5: we need to make sure that everyone's able to contribute

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Speaker 5: in the economy in ways that are you know, secure

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Speaker 5: and with dignified work and all of those things, but

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Speaker 5: the other ways that they this group, historically marginalized groups

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Speaker 5: often are the first to be hit. Black women being

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Speaker 5: you know, in recession after recession, really like the they're

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Speaker 5: the first hit and the hardest hit and that's the

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Speaker 5: other thing is we can look at, Okay, who's whose

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Speaker 5: unemployment rates are going up, how quickly are they going up,

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Speaker 5: how long are they unemployed, like how hard is it

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Speaker 5: to find another job? And it does provide like a

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Speaker 5: window into likely what's about to happen to other groups

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Speaker 5: as this kind of the economic squeeze spreads across across

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Speaker 5: the larger economy. But the other thing I'd say I

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Speaker 5: was thinking about this morning is.

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Speaker 3: Worry.

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Speaker 6: And I think worry is an.

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Speaker 5: Interesting way of seeing into an economy where you know,

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Speaker 5: it's dynamic, it's hard to exactly know what's around the corner.

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Speaker 5: But the survey that we found that showed that we

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Speaker 5: write about in the article that showed, like, I mean what,

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Speaker 5: I was pretty shocked by the statistic, which is that

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Speaker 5: the there's been a massive increase in the percentage of

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Speaker 5: Black women who are saying that they're worried about or

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Speaker 5: have said that economic conditions have worsened over the last year.

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Speaker 5: So in twenty twenty four it was forty percent. It

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Speaker 5: jumped to eighty seven percent in twenty twenty five, Right,

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Speaker 5: So that's massive more Black women are worried right now

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Speaker 5: about routine and rising bills than at the you know,

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Speaker 5: than at the early part of the pandemic. So to me,

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Speaker 5: I think, you know, this is a group that you know,

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Speaker 5: it's kind of like here we go again. And I

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Speaker 5: feel like groups that have experienced this, they're they're faster

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Speaker 5: to see what's happening because it's hitting them and more

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Speaker 5: of more people in their community. They're connecting the dots

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Speaker 5: and they're seeing things and so as as sort of

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Speaker 5: an arbiter around like what is happening and how bad

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Speaker 5: could it be? Like this is the group that I

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Speaker 5: think has seized things the clearest. So the worry was

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Speaker 5: also made me made me pause. I think that they're

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Speaker 5: seeing it exactly as it is.

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Speaker 1: The last time we saw an up in black women's

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Speaker 1: worry was right at the very beginning of the COVID

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Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic. So you're saying that black women like me

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Speaker 1: have not been this worried since the early days of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic back in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: That seems bad to me.

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Speaker 5: We were working on this post for a while and

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Speaker 5: I was at a conference, and I was in a

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Speaker 5: hotel room, and I was like looking at all this

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Speaker 5: stuff and I it was just like whoa, I just

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Speaker 5: I like remember the moment that that kind of connected

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Speaker 5: in my brain.

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Speaker 6: I was like, oh, yeah, no, this is uh you know.

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Speaker 5: I mean it's always hard to know again because things

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Speaker 5: change and the economy is so it could be fast moving.

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Speaker 5: But I think that this group is telling us something

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Speaker 5: that's really important and we need to pay attention to

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Speaker 5: it because they're almost always right.

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Speaker 1: Right at the very beginning of COVID, I remember seeing

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Speaker 1: black women's unemployment shoot to seventeen percent. I think it

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Speaker 1: was sixteen point eight percent according to Economic Policy Institute.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we also saw that the recovery the

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight financial crisis was way slower than

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Speaker 1: the people were expecting, right, and so black women were

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Speaker 1: quite frankly, the last group to recover from that crisis.

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Speaker 1: And that again speaks to the experiences of other people

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Speaker 1: who have overlapping experiences with black women that we're also

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Speaker 1: suffering hosts two thousand and eight. And so, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think a Mariam kind of hit the nail on

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Speaker 1: the head. It's not just that, you know, black women

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Speaker 1: are kind of a warning signal for what's happening with

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Speaker 1: our economy.

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Speaker 3: And beyond.

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Speaker 1: But it's also that this is a part of our economy, right,

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Speaker 1: So if a part of our economy is on fire,

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Speaker 1: we need to put that fire out.

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Speaker 3: And that means that we.

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Speaker 1: Need to pay attention to those worries that they're expressing,

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Speaker 1: and that we also need to ensure that the policy

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Speaker 1: solutions that are on the table are essentially accounting for that.

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Speaker 1: We've seen you know, Congresswoman Eleana Presley really call for

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Speaker 1: that by specifically addressing the Federal Reserve Board.

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Speaker 3: Share Jerome Powell.

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Speaker 1: And I think that we need more congressional leaders, local leaders,

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Speaker 1: and stay wide leaders to do the same.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought up that point that it's

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Speaker 2: not just about you know, job numbers. It's also the

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Speaker 2: important piece that black women are often the first to

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Speaker 2: get hit with a crisis and then the last to

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Speaker 2: experience that the recovery from that crisis.

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Speaker 3: What does that look like and what has the impact?

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Speaker 7: Ben?

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Speaker 5: Well, it doesn't look good, right, I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 5: it's it's really concerning.

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Speaker 8: I mean the other thing, as you know, as doing

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Speaker 8: the kind of work on this piece, was just you know,

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Speaker 8: the point that black women were still losing jobs when

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Speaker 8: they're great, recession was declared over, Like, how do you

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Speaker 8: declare a recession over when people are still losing their

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Speaker 8: jobs in sizable numbers?

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Speaker 6: So yeah, and I think what it.

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Speaker 3: Does is it.

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Speaker 6: That it it shows how hard.

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Speaker 5: That this this group in particular gets hit, but then

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Speaker 5: how little is done to actually kind of support the

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Speaker 5: group that is struggling the most. And why is that?

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Speaker 5: And then and then what the concern is over time

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Speaker 5: is that certain groups are less left worse off and

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Speaker 5: worse off and worse off, creating, you know, this kind

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Speaker 5: of effect that makes it even harder for for black

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00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 5: women to to get back to the other point about

444
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 5: black women best, Like my understanding is that you know,

445
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 5: we were barely back to a point for black women

446
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 5: where their their employment was had returned to where it

447
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 5: was pre pandemic.

448
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 6: Right, So now it's like this kind.

449
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 5: Of churning happening, and it's very difficult for people to

450
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 5: kind of get security, have any social mobility. And again

451
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 5: that has implications not just for those groups, but for

452
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 5: our economy overall.

453
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: Black women hold a very important economic position in their

454
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: communities and in.

455
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: Society at large.

456
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: So we know that quite a few mothers are breadwinners

457
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: in their house. So I don't know the number exactly,

458
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: but black mothers, I believe sixty nine percent of them

459
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: are the breadwinners of their household.

460
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 3: So just let's think about that for a second. They

461
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 3: have people relying on.

462
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: Them, kids, grandparents, relatives, sometimes family friends.

463
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 3: And so if you're losing income.

464
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: Because you're dealing with cuts to the federal workforce, cuts

465
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 1: to industries where you're discoforcedly represented, it's not just hurting

466
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: your pocketbook, it's hurting the economic future of your household.

467
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 3: And I think we need to.

468
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: Really contextualize what role black women, especially black mothers, are

469
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: playing in their communities.

470
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 3: They're upholding their community.

471
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: They're strengthening their communities through their dollars, through what they're

472
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: able to invest in with their dollars. And so what

473
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: happens when those dollars disappear. Entire communities are impacted. It's

474
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: so interesting. I had an event yesterday in DC and

475
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: so and I'd asked a question about, you know.

476
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: How are black men affected by what's happening to black women? Well,

477
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 3: black men.

478
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: Black men are in community with black women, and oftentimes

479
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: black men are being supported in some way by black women.

480
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 3: And so if black women lose, black men also lose.

481
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: Black children also lose, but also black men, black women,

482
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: all these different communities are in different places across our country.

483
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: They're not just right in a black neighborhood. They can

484
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: be in white neighborhood, they can be in mixed race neighborhoods.

485
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: They're in different class levels. So we're not talking just

486
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: about you know, this single are group and this vacuum

487
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: and this silo. We're talking about twelve percent, seven percent

488
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: in some kits for black women of the population. What

489
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: happens when seven percent of the population can't meaningfully contribute

490
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: to our economy. The answer is simple, our economy shrinks

491
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: and those communities suffer.

492
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: I mean, there's simply no way forward without black women politically, economically, socially,

493
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: family wise, community wise, We just we just we don't

494
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: get to where we're going without including us clocket exactly.

495
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 7: Not sorry.

496
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 2: More, after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

497
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: I was raised by an incredibly high at black women,

498
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: and honestly, it was a little intimidating. I always heard

499
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: people call my mom a superwoman because she never seemed

500
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: to drop a ball. She did everything and did it flawlessly.

501
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: But what I never really saw as a kid was

502
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 2: the cost of all that. Mom never got to rest,

503
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: she never got to stumble, she never got to just be. Yes,

504
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: black women are extraordinary, but we're not superheroes. I mean

505
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to be. We shouldn't have to do it

506
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: all and prove our strength every single day just to survive,

507
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: because no matter how determined or brilliant you are, you

508
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: can't fix a broken system by yourself, and you can't

509
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: truly thrive inside one either. I wanted to get more

510
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: into this because you know, I'm a black woman.

511
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: I was raised by a black mom.

512
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: I do think there is a cultural attitude that, oh,

513
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: we'll figure it out. Black women will always figure it out. Well,

514
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: we'll do what needs to be done. But you can

515
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: only do so much when you were up against these

516
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: horses that are very clearly systemic and institutional.

517
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: Right, you can't. You can't.

518
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: Like black women are, we are strong, we are talented,

519
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: all of that, but like we can genuinely only do

520
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: so much up against forces like this that are so

521
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: ingrained and so systemic.

522
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 5: Yes, you can't individual your way out of you know,

523
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 5: systemic inequalities.

524
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 6: I think it is a important.

525
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 5: Like and and I think a lot of groups have

526
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 5: these like cultural narratives of how to cope with really

527
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 5: terrible stuff and really terrible times, and it is it

528
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 5: does I think foster resilience and hope and those things

529
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 5: are important. But it is not the answer to you know,

530
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 5: inadequate policy. It is not the answer to you know,

531
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 5: the double tax, for example, of the you know, the

532
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 5: compounding nature racism and sexism, and so I think, you know,

533
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 5: for a long time now, for for so long, there's

534
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 5: been calls for policies to address the real obstacles to

535
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 5: you know, Black women employment or mobility or opportunity, and

536
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 5: it just, you know, it's we have eras where it

537
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 5: feels like there's a lot of progress and then you know,

538
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 5: as soon as as some the things start to shift,

539
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 5: I feel like it comes back down hard again. And

540
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 5: that is again reflective of how black women are in

541
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 5: the eye of the economic storm because they are so

542
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 5: so marginalized.

543
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: I love what Marianne said there, you can't individual your

544
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: way through sort of these economic crises and inequality.

545
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: We're large, and that's also that's always been true. Actually,

546
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: I feel right like just across time, movements of people,

547
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: lots of people have pushed the thing, you know, pushed

548
00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: our society forward. And I feel like, you know, if

549
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: I had to get like a very practical piece of

550
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: advice to people who are listening, especially black women, if

551
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: you have a union in your workplace, I need you

552
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: to join it, like yesterday, okay, so please join your union.

553
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: You can join your union as a grad student. I

554
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: know we love school. So if you want to, if

555
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: you want to go back to grad school, right, make

556
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: sure you join your grad school union. It's extremely important

557
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: that you're protected because what Marianne is saying is so true,

558
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: and also what you're saying too is speaking to you know,

559
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: our our shared lives experience.

560
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 3: But the reality is, like the labor market, the job

561
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 3: market more specifically fundamentally undervalues women's work, and even more

562
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 3: so undervalues Black women's work despite all of the sacrifices,

563
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: all of the hours, all of the effort that we

564
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 3: put through right or put put forth. And so it

565
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 3: is sometimes up to us collect actively to fight for

566
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: each other because you know, I hate to say like this,

567
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 3: but no one's coming to save us. They never have, right.

568
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: Oftentimes when we throw ourselves a lifeline, we actually end

569
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: up saving everybody else. And that's all to say that.

570
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 1: You know, of course other people need to be involved

571
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: in the process of making sure that marginalized groups like

572
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: black women are not falling behind.

573
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: But can I be honest with you, I don't really

574
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: trust people. I don't. I'm so sorry at Marianna's is right.

575
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: So my dissertation for the sake of the current climate

576
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: is talent development and acquisition. But what I really study

577
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: for those listening to make it really really hard for

578
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: your boss to be racist, to be a right. That's

579
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: what I do, and the way I do it is,

580
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: you know, I go by this saying, if you want

581
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: to be a biggot in your bathtub, be my guest.

582
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: If you want to bathe in the bubbles of bigger tree,

583
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: have a great time.

584
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: Okay, the moment you step outside, I'm gonna be right

585
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: there holding you accountable every time. Every time you open

586
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: your door, there's gonna be anna come out. So you're

587
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: gonna be a bigger today. Not on my watch, Not

588
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: on my watch. Take it back to the bathtub. Take

589
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: it back to the bath exactly right. Take it back

590
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 3: to the bathtub.

591
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: And so I think the way this is all to

592
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: say we underestimate the power of accountability, especially as a collective.

593
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: And this is not like cancel culture, but it is

594
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: to say that as researchers, Marian and I are researchers,

595
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: as people who are just who have platforms like yourself,

596
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: as folks who are just on the Internet and just

597
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: walking around, we have the power to say no, actually

598
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: we don't like that, you know. And we sew this

599
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: kind of unfold across the world. In South Korea when

600
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: that God was trying to take over it, they said, nah,

601
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,239
Speaker 1: Now they just happen to have a population that knows

602
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: how to fight, right.

603
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 3: But that being said, they said no, we're not standing

604
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 3: for this, and.

605
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: They literally took to the streets. And I think that

606
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: we have that same spirit within us. And so if

607
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: you don't think that the world should be unfair, unjust

608
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: and unequal, you lock arms with somebody who believes the

609
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: same thing and you fight together.

610
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: That's how you move things forward.

611
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 6: It's hard to put into words where we are right now.

612
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 6: It's very scary.

613
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 5: It's we've had, you know, times in the past that

614
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 5: are seeming like they should have stayed in the past

615
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 5: that it just feels like, you know, a new fascist era.

616
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 6: But every day, like I keep thinking to.

617
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 5: Myself, all we have is each other, right, right, That's

618
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 5: really all we have because if the laws are changed

619
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 5: or they're not, you know, they're not in four or

620
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 5: you know. Anyway, I just think all we have is

621
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 5: each other. And and it's you know, collective action is

622
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 5: so powerful, and that's really how to the degree we've

623
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 5: been able to save ourselves. That's what that's been is

624
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 5: collective action social movements. And I think it, you know,

625
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 5: at a granular level, like what this looks like is

626
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 5: you know when people lose their jobs either because of

627
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 5: the economic forces or because they're targeted, or you know,

628
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 5: they posted something and you know.

629
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 6: They're they're fire for it.

630
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 5: Like I think it's it's being much more intentional about

631
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 5: how you are going to have other people's backs.

632
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 6: What does that look like? You know, that sort of

633
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 6: mutual aid approach. But I just it's you.

634
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 5: Know, we always have had moments of this, but this

635
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 5: is on a scale that is at least in my lifetime,

636
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 5: I haven't experienced it. So anyway, I just think we

637
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 5: have to be there for each other. And that's you know,

638
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 5: what does that mean that? I think it means like,

639
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 5: if you have a job to give someone, give it.

640
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 5: If you can give money, give it. If you can

641
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 5: be a source of support for someone, give it. But

642
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 5: it's you know, and this is going to be a

643
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 5: multi year so hopefully only a few Yes, we're allowing.

644
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: Me to keep from crying. Yeah, that's right, don't I

645
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 3: know it? That's right.

646
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: I want to double click on that idea because so

647
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: I live in Washington, d C. And one of the

648
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: big things here, as you both probably know, is the

649
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 2: just the massive scale of layoffs, so, you know, layoff

650
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: some government. I think that good stable government jobs have

651
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 2: been the backbone of economic stability, at least where I

652
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: live here in DC the mid Atlantic region. And we

653
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: saw a lot of black women, kind of career civil

654
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: servants or like long time government workers really being pushed

655
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: out of these jobs. And I cannot help but get

656
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 2: the idea that there was this sense that oh, well,

657
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 2: those black women didn't really deserve those jobs, or they

658
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 2: weren't unqualified, or they were just taking a white man spot.

659
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 3: Is this And I just feel that.

660
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: The way that that is talked about is with such

661
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: disregard and it almost it almost is like it's it's

662
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: like a sneeringness about these women who really have been

663
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: doing so much to keep our government running, doing sort

664
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: of thankless, probably unglamorous work.

665
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 3: Is this something that you all have seen?

666
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 7: Yes?

667
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: So you know what I.

668
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: Love about the double tax is that it really validates

669
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: black women's experiences and women of color more broadly, because

670
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: I think a lot of.

671
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: People will play in our face and say, you know,

672
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 3: like you you're not.

673
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: Really qualified for this, right, or oh, you know that

674
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: personally got in because they're a DEI high or whatever.

675
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: But we know from the data, right, is that black

676
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: women experience the highest and over the lowest promotion rates

677
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: and are more likely than any other group to be

678
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: labeled as low performers in the workplace. This is worked

679
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: by Elizabeth Lino, son As Mabasri and Nino Russe. We

680
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: know this, This is the data that's speaking. We also

681
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: know that when it comes to promotions, this is the

682
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: work of Marion Cooper and the Women in the Workplace Report.

683
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: I love citing this work in the book that for

684
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: every one hundred men who were promoted in the workplace

685
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. On average, eighty one women were

686
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: promoted Black women.

687
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 3: It was fifty four, the lowest promotion rate amongst all

688
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 3: women groups. And so, you know, it's interesting.

689
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: I look at these stats and then I look at

690
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: the Black women that I know, and I think about

691
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: the ones that dot their eyes and cross.

692
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: Their teeth, which is mainly most of us. Quite frankly, yes, right,

693
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 3: because this is the reality. There's very little room for error,

694
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: very little room for error.

695
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: I know a little something about feeling like there's very

696
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: little room for error because black women, especially black women

697
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: in positions of power, are not really allowed to make

698
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: any kinds of mistakes on the job.

699
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 3: So we have to cross our lives and dot RTAs.

700
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: It's just the reality of being black women in the workplace,

701
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: because we know that it comes with already made attack

702
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: that you're only there in the first place because you're

703
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: a DEI higher. And we also know that it won't

704
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: take much for us to be on the chopping block.

705
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: Wants an example of a super qualified black woman being

706
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 2: mischaracterized as unqualified, just look at Lisa Cook.

707
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: So currently, what's happening in the news is you have

708
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: very prominent black women being attacked by the administration in

709
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: a number of different areas, but let me maybe talk

710
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: about the one that I know the most. So, Governor

711
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: Lisa Cook is a name that is now a household name.

712
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: I love that for her. I hate the reason why

713
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: it's a household name for right now, but you know,

714
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: her work is very brilliant.

715
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: So Governor Lisa Cook is an economist, a macro economist,

716
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: one of the best I would argue in the profession.

717
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: And she currently occupies a role in the Federal Reserve

718
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: Board of Governors.

719
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 3: For those who are like, I don't know.

720
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 7: What that is.

721
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 3: Does that affect me? Yes, it does affect you.

722
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: And what that is essentially is the group of economists

723
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: that manage the group of economists that manage the economy. Right,

724
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: So these individuals ultimately make the call on interest rates,

725
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: which I know folks have heard about, because if you're

726
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: going to get a loan to buy a house, you're

727
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: looking at interest rates, if you're gonna think about, you know, inflation,

728
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: you're thinking about the grocery prices at your local grocery store.

729
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: And so these are the individuals who are making those

730
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: really important decisions that reverberate not just through our economy, but.

731
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 3: Through the global economy.

732
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: Right, So it's not that what's happening here is just

733
00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: happening here.

734
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: It's actual relevant for the UK.

735
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: It's relevant for what's happening in Ghana, right because everybody

736
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: is looking to the US about how our dollar is

737
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: going to be affected essentially by the decisions.

738
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: That the FED makes. So what's happening right.

739
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: Now is this woman is being attacked, This black woman's

740
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: being attacked, and a lot of people are saying, you know,

741
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: she was unqualified, unqualified for a position that the President

742
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: of the United States appointed her for. Let's just state

743
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: that fact, right, the President Biden appointed her to this position.

744
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 3: Let me tell you something about doctor Cook, probably the

745
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 3: most qualified person to ever serve on the FED. Ever.

746
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding this woman. I'm rattle off and

747
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna make my larger point. Went to Oxford,

748
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: went to UC Berkeley, went to Spelman, made history as

749
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: their first Marshall scholar. Worked the White House, worked at

750
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: the Treasury, worked on the helpful of economic advisors, was

751
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: appointed to a presidential transition team to lead the.

752
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 3: Very group she's now a part of. Right, She's worked

753
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: at four out of the twelve federal Reserve banks, not

754
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: including her current position, which would make it five. So

755
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 3: she's worked at at.

756
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: Least a third of the regional banks that contribute to

757
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: managing our economy. She has advised people in Asia, in Africa,

758
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,479
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the phone with shock.

759
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 3: Good guys, I'm confused. I'm looking for the lack of qualifications.

760
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 3: I can't find anywhere. Here's my point. My point is

761
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 3: black women. People look at us.

762
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: They see our skin, they see our hair, they see

763
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: our brilliance, and they have to trick themselves into saying

764
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: there's no way that person can be all those things

765
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: at once. A lot of these people who are saying,

766
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, black women are not qualified, what they're really

767
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: saying is diversity is at odds of merit. There is

768
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: no way that something can be meritocratic and you can

769
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: also be black. There's no way. But what the data

770
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: suggests is very clear. The folks who get a.

771
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: Leg up.

772
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: If we'resbility, it's not us we actually get a let down.

773
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: We get a leg down. Y'all don't hire us because

774
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 3: we're black, but we still show up to the workplace anyway.

775
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 3: Y'all don't admit us because we're black. But forty three

776
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 3: percent of the white students at Harvard in twenty nineteen

777
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 3: were admitted off of nothing related to merit. They were

778
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 3: either related to family members who donated, they were either

779
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 3: children of staff or faculty, or they were athletes, which

780
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: we know from past scandals that that's another way to

781
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: get certain people into the door. This is how to

782
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: say that even though the stack is built like a

783
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: wall against us, nobody can take away the fact that

784
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 3: we are object stively qualified. And that has always been true.

785
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 3: I'll hear preaching a sermon.

786
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's true.

787
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 5: It is always interesting to notice when the the meritocracy

788
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 5: narrative is.

789
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 6: You know, unleashed, and when and then when it's not. Uh,

790
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 6: And it.

791
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 5: My own kind of the thing I often think about

792
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 5: when when this topic comes up, is that with the

793
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 5: Women in.

794
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 6: The Workplace report stuff.

795
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 5: So this is a collaboration between Mackenzie and leanin dot

796
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 5: org and we just had our tenth for part last

797
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 5: year and it's you know, each year there's tens of

798
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 5: thousands of employees. You do the survey and we have

799
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 5: a lot of data and so it's great. It's a

800
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 5: it's a it's so much data that we really can

801
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 5: see some very interesting patterns. What I have noticed over

802
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 5: time is that we, you know, periodically have this question like,

803
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 5: you know, do you want to be a top executive

804
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 5: or you know, senior leader or whatever. And what I've

805
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 5: noticed from an aspirations stam point is that black women

806
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 5: have higher aspirations to senior leadership than white women, and

807
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 5: black women's aspirations are similar to those of white men.

808
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 5: But when you look at the pipeline, so you look

809
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 5: at from entry level all the way up to the

810
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 5: c suite, what we see is white men are are

811
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 5: the group that becomes over represented over time. So they

812
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 5: start out, you know, at entry level they're like something

813
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 5: like a third of employees. To buy the c suite,

814
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 5: they're they're over half and so and then so for

815
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 5: black women it's sort of it's it's they they start

816
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 5: out and then they're they're underrepresented at each each step

817
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 5: up in that in that pipeline. And so my larger

818
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 5: point is like we either there's sort of two ways

819
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 5: to look at that, and in terms of understanding it,

820
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 5: you can either think that white men are smarter and

821
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 5: work harder than everybody else or something else is going on,

822
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 5: and we have now, you know, many decades of social

823
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 5: science research showing us that they're something else that's going on.

824
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 5: And these are the biases that are in all these

825
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 5: different kinds of people processes, from hiring to performance evaluation

826
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 5: to other things.

827
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 6: But the idea that black women are.

828
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 5: Not as competent as other groups of people is to

829
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 5: what animal speaking about. There is no room for error

830
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 5: because you have this higher bar and people are watching you.

831
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 5: And so the women that do get through, and particularly

832
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 5: the women of color that do rise up through an

833
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 5: organization or a field or whatever, they're usually better than everybody.

834
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 6: Else because they have to be glock clock.

835
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 5: So it's an interesting phenomenon that we can still, though,

836
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 5: have such a strong narrative that somehow all of these

837
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 5: people in quotes, which usually is code for, you know,

838
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 5: folks of color, particularly women of color, somehow are holding

839
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 5: positions in which they are not qualified for, have not

840
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 5: worked hard for, and just do not deserve. The data

841
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 5: shows the opposite, I think, which is also why there

842
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 5: are attempts to stop collecting the data. If you want

843
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 5: to hide or ignore social problem, you just stop collecting

844
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 5: the data. I mean, you could also manipulate the data,

845
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 5: which I'm also worried about.

846
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 6: But in any.

847
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 5: Case, this is the idea that somehow on the black

848
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 5: women holding jobs in federal government were they're because they

849
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 5: didn't deserve to be is just untrue. But they again

850
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 5: because of those massive job cuts to the federal government,

851
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 5: because black women held a higher percentage of jobs there,

852
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 5: that they got hit really hard in that. And we'll

853
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 5: be still as that continues.

854
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 4: More.

855
00:46:49,480 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

856
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 2: If you encounter a black woman in a high up

857
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: leadership position, nobody gives us anything. So just just know

858
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 2: that she not only clearly deserves that position, probably frankly

859
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: deserves to be higher. Like nobody is more qualified than

860
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: a black woman in a leadership position because of how

861
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: how good we have to be to be let in

862
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 2: the door at all. Do you think they would do

863
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: like this idea that black women are being given positions

864
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: they don't deserve but are not qualified for.

865
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 3: It's just it's.

866
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: Almost funny to me, as someone who's in the working

867
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: world for most of my life.

868
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's well, you know, it's sort of like

869
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 5: that bitter It's like funny, not funny, it's like, it's

870
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 5: just it it blows one's mind, right, because and the

871
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 5: way that so many people actually still hold that belief is, uh,

872
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 5: it's yeah, it's just it's it's a lot.

873
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 6: But that's how I feel.

874
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 5: I mean, that's the whole thing about demon in the

875
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 5: start of themistration DEI and uh, you know, the pilots

876
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 5: and stuff like that, and I'm like, no, it's like

877
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 5: anytime you're looking at a pilot, surgeons, whatever that you know,

878
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 5: again because of the higher bar, because of the racism

879
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 5: and sexism, because you've been continually discounted, you know, mistreated

880
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 5: all those things. The people who make it to the

881
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 5: top in those roles, who are members of these historically

882
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 5: marginalized groups, they are by definition the best of the best.

883
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 5: So I'm actually always happy when my pilots are DEI folks.

884
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: Yes, And I wanted to ask you about this because

885
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: I know the book The Double Tacks. What I love

886
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 2: about it is that it's you're not just sort of

887
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 2: laying out the facts and the figures of the situation,

888
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 2: it's also conversations and stories.

889
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 3: What have women that you talked to for the book

890
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 3: told you the.

891
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: Women I've spoken to, well, only be honest, like, uh,

892
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: I spoke to some women. We had a team of

893
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: women who spoke to women, so you know who we

894
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: spoke to. They conferred everything that we're talking about right now, right,

895
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of why I have to

896
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 1: bring the dat up, because it's not like we haven't

897
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: been having this conversation. This conversation has been long had

898
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: for so many years. And I think, you know, when

899
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: it comes to black women who are just trying to

900
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: make it to.

901
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 3: The top, who The title of this chapter is called

902
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 3: the Broken Wrung, which is inspired by the Women in

903
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: the Workplace Report. What I argue is that, you know,

904
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 3: women in general are climbing a ladder with rungs that

905
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 3: are more further spaced apart, but for women of color,

906
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 3: especially Black women, those rungs are broken. What do I

907
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 3: mean by that? I mean, as we climb to.

908
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: The top, it costs us something. It always seems to

909
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: cost us something. I can be very practical here and

910
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: say it might cost us our hair texture. You might

911
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: not be able to ruck as many braids, which is

912
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: why I think, like deshanda duckett is so important form

913
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 1: of representation, right now she rocks braids in her fortune

914
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: five hundred speaking circuits, right, which I think is very

915
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: very important. But I think there's a lot of nuances

916
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: that I want to introduce here if we're really getting

917
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: into it. We spoke to black women about you know,

918
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: what do you what are the challenges that you deal

919
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: with in the workplace. Maryam might not be surprised by this,

920
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: but some people listening might be.

921
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: You know what they said, They said white women. Now

922
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 3: we're laughing because we know that's he But I think.

923
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: It's important to bring this into the forefront because I

924
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: think that, you know, we've been talking a lot about

925
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: comparing black women to white men and how white women

926
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: are absolutely overrepresented in the highest paid professions by far.

927
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: The data supports this. This is data from the Center

928
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: from American Progress. I believe they make up at least

929
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: of every single one of the top ten hives paid

930
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: professions as of twenty nineteen.

931
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 3: But when we kind of dig into.

932
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: The actual workplace experience, a lot of times women are

933
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: interacting with women and this is where the double tax

934
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: can also arise. Where I say in the book, white

935
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: women are navigating the patriarchy at work right you're still

936
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: dealing with sexism, you're still dealing with gender inequality. This

937
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: is why we need sort of the fortifying ergs, if

938
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: you will, the employee resource groups to assist as we're

939
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: moving through the moving through the workplace.

940
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: But black women will. Black women deal with the patriarchy too,

941
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 3: and they also deal with white women. And what I

942
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 3: mean by this.

943
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: Is that there are some white women in the workplace,

944
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 1: according to black women that we spoke to that shared that,

945
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, when they're just trying to do their job,

946
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: their question right, So they're getting the question of competence

947
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: from white men, and they're also getting the question.

948
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: Of competence from white women.

949
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that study I cited a while

950
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: back with Elizabeth Lino's and co authors.

951
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 3: What they found was.

952
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: If there's a higher share of white women on your team,

953
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: as a black woman, you're more likely to lead the

954
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 1: organization in addition to white men.

955
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 3: So it's not just that white men.

956
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 1: Are driving a turnover of Black women in the workplace,

957
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: it's also white women.

958
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 3: And that's what our stories corroborated.

959
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: And I think this kind of puts us in a

960
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: little bit of an awkward spot, right because a lot

961
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: of times when we're having these conversations about women.

962
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 3: In the workplace, we don't really talk about race. Have

963
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 3: you noticed. I have noticed.

964
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: I've noticed we don't talk about race. And it's interesting

965
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: because it's interesting derogatory. Let me start there and say that, like,

966
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: we're missing worries that are really important because what's happening

967
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: to the black women in the workplace at some point

968
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 1: will filter through to the white women, because who becomes

969
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: expendable is relative.

970
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 3: You get rid of all the black.

971
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: Women, it's just going to be the next group that

972
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: whoever is empowered things is expendable, and oftentimes that is

973
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: white women.

974
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 3: And so I think that it's incumbent on us to

975
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 3: have very honest conversations about the difference in experiences that

976
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 3: we have as women. One of the big reasons why

977
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 3: I love this book, why Mary Anne, by the way,

978
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 3: was one of the experts on the chapter that I'm

979
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 3: talking about, so this is all not new to her, right,

980
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 3: is because it really forces us to reckon with whether

981
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 3: or not being a woman is a monolithic experience. And

982
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 3: what this book basically says in bold print and into

983
00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: a megaphone is absolutely not the same experience across the board,

984
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 3: and we need to have a lot more conversations about why.

985
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:09,320
Speaker 5: There is no single story of women and we lose

986
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 5: a lot by trying to just say that there's you know,

987
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 5: womenness and women that it's like there are vast inequalities

988
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 5: among women themselves, obviously by race and ethnicity, but also

989
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 5: by social class and also by age. I think is

990
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 5: another one that has not talked about enough, and so

991
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 5: just yes, we need to have a more I think

992
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 5: there's so much variation we need to have that be

993
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 5: part of the conversation rather than thinking that there's just

994
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 5: like one one experience because it's just it's it just overlooks,

995
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 5: it ignores a lot of different stories that are unfolding

996
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 5: and obscures I think the stories that are most important

997
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 5: to tell.

998
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 2: And it just speaks to the way that black women

999
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 2: our experiences can really get lost in it if we're

1000
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 2: not having these intersectional conversations about what's going on that

1001
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: really highlight like what it is that we're dealing with,

1002
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 2: what it is that we're up against, and how those.

1003
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: Are all playing out.

1004
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 2: When you're saying, yeah, so the piece kind of ends

1005
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: with you all saying that you know these early warning

1006
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 2: signs are only useful if listened to. Let's not miss

1007
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: the one black women are sounding yet again, So what

1008
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: does it look like.

1009
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 3: To actually hear and respond to this warning that you

1010
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 3: all are pointing out? I mean, I think one thing

1011
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 3: that a.

1012
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: Lot of black women or commas have said is like,

1013
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: we need to first and foremost even know that the

1014
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: warning exists.

1015
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 3: And that begins with this aggregating the data. So I

1016
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 3: think local and state leaders who.

1017
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: Have access to data about the labor market, who are

1018
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 1: paying attention to the Bureau Labor statistics, dig into how

1019
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: different groups are being impacted by these job cuts, by

1020
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: what's happening with sort of these slashes to industries that

1021
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 1: are disproportionately affecting Black women. I think it also means

1022
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: really thinking about why it matters that black women in

1023
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: particular stand to lose the most at this time. Black

1024
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: women are breadwears, right, their moms. They're individuals who are

1025
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: just trying to make a living and make a life.

1026
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: As I said before, and I think using black women

1027
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: as a benchmark for your policy making is extremely helpful

1028
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,439
Speaker 1: because it says, Okay, black moms are under pressure, right now,

1029
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and design a program locally or statewide

1030
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 1: to ensure that we can support moms that might be

1031
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: in similar positions, right or black young folks can't find

1032
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: jobs right now, Let's see if we can as a

1033
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: university maybe extend the career services beyond just you know,

1034
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: you know, folks who are current students, and maybe have

1035
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: a more robust programming to ensure that our alumni can

1036
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: transition smoothly into the job market. So it's saying you

1037
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: see that certain groups are setting up a smoke signal,

1038
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: and I would even say they're running in the opposite

1039
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 1: direction of something that is headed their way. And you

1040
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: have a choice, Iiva, you can run alongside. This is

1041
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: a running joke, right, because every time you see a

1042
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: black person run, you're supposed to run two. That's usually

1043
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: the game, is right, but you see a black person running,

1044
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: you see a black woman running the other direction, and

1045
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: instead of being like, oh, she's a fool for running,

1046
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: the sun is out, things are great, and you decide

1047
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pull out my picnic planket and read my book,

1048
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: you should ask her why are you running?

1049
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 3: What are you running from? Right?

1050
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: Because oftentimes she has a fantash point that you can't

1051
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: comprehend or maybe you don't have the perspective to see.

1052
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: And in this case, going with this metaphor, she's running

1053
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: from a tsunami that's coming her way, and so she's

1054
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,919
Speaker 1: gonna try her best to get to safety. But one

1055
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: thing you gotta know, this is the double tax come

1056
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: on metaphor, is that she has got an anchor on

1057
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: her ankle, right, something weight on our ankle, so she

1058
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: can't run fast enough away from me. But if you

1059
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: who has not that way, not that pressure, not having

1060
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: to do with racism and sexism at that level, are.

1061
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 3: Also heating the warning.

1062
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: You can go into town and tell everybody else, hey,

1063
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: we got to prepare to this, and da da da da,

1064
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: And so by the time she gets there, she's not

1065
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: swept up in the storm.

1066
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 3: So I think that's the way I would say, we

1067
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 3: need this moment.

1068
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: We don't ignore you know, what's taking place, and we

1069
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: don't stop at just saying, man, they're a warning signal,

1070
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: and then we don't heat it. There's no use in

1071
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: hearing the alarm and not acting on the emergency. If

1072
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: there's an emergency, we need to do something about it.

1073
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: Otherwise we all stand to lose much more.

1074
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that that sums it all up. And

1075
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 5: if we ignore this, I think it will will be

1076
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 5: back on our heels pretty quickly here. And if we

1077
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 5: get in front of it by action listening to black women,

1078
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 5: we could prevent a lot of pain for everybody, but

1079
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 5: particularly for black women.

1080
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 6: So it's just.

1081
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 5: Too many times Black women's experiences in the economy but

1082
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 5: otherwise have been ignored and it leaves you know, almost

1083
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 5: everyone worse off as a result.

1084
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, I

1085
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 2: just want to say Hi. You can reach us at

1086
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 2: Hello at tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

1087
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 2: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

1088
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

1089
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland

1090
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 2: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1091
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1092
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 2: bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1093
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1094
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 2: check out the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts.

1095
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 3: Or wherever you get your podcasts.

1096
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 7: The manhat rum with a long