WEBVTT - The Data Coach 0:00:15.276 --> 0:00:26.156 Pushkin. For roughly five thousand years, people call themselves doctors 0:00:26.276 --> 0:00:28.436 and pretended to know all sorts of things that they 0:00:28.476 --> 0:00:30.436 didn't know, and were as likely to kill you as 0:00:30.436 --> 0:00:35.836 to cure you. These doctors existed because sick people desperately 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:39.636 wanted to believe in them. Coaching feels the same way 0:00:39.636 --> 0:00:44.796 to me. For decades, people just sort of hoped that 0:00:44.836 --> 0:00:47.036 if a man was hollering at them, he must be 0:00:47.076 --> 0:00:51.236 helping them to win. Maybe he was sometimes, but that's 0:00:51.236 --> 0:00:53.796 not my point. My point is that even if coaches 0:00:53.836 --> 0:00:56.756 have no effect on performance, even if they're doing more 0:00:56.796 --> 0:01:00.836 harm than good, we might still insist on having them 0:01:00.876 --> 0:01:03.676 because we need someone on our side to believe in. 0:01:07.476 --> 0:01:10.916 But coaching's changing the same way medicine changed one hundred 0:01:10.996 --> 0:01:17.996 years ago. Coaches are discovering science, and science is discovering them. 0:01:18.076 --> 0:01:22.196 I'm Michael Lewis and This is Against the Rules, a 0:01:22.276 --> 0:01:26.596 show about various authority figures in American life. This season 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:29.676 is about the rise of coaches, and this episode is 0:01:29.716 --> 0:01:45.636 about data and pitching. A while back in two thousand 0:01:45.636 --> 0:01:48.636 and three, I published a book called Moneyball. It's about 0:01:48.676 --> 0:01:51.716 how the Oakland A's baseball team had used data analysis 0:01:51.716 --> 0:01:54.276 to get an edge on everyone else. They were a 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:57.476 poorly funded team in a small market. They had no 0:01:57.556 --> 0:02:00.276 money to spend on players, but their new and better 0:02:00.316 --> 0:02:05.076 statistics enable them to value baseball players more accurately, so 0:02:05.116 --> 0:02:07.436 they could sell the players that were overvalued and trade 0:02:07.476 --> 0:02:10.036 for the ones that were undervalued. I remember at the 0:02:10.076 --> 0:02:12.916 time being shocked at the notion that baseball players could 0:02:12.916 --> 0:02:15.916 be misvalued. I mean, baseball players have been doing the 0:02:15.956 --> 0:02:18.476 same job for a century, out in the open, in 0:02:18.516 --> 0:02:27.876 front of millions of people. But suddenly, all over a 0:02:27.996 --> 0:02:30.356 thing that had been done a certain way forever was 0:02:30.436 --> 0:02:35.876 now being done a totally different way. Everyone in baseball 0:02:35.916 --> 0:02:38.676 started using data and getting all sorts of insights from it, 0:02:39.356 --> 0:02:42.076 and the insights led not just to better valuations of 0:02:42.116 --> 0:02:45.876 baseball players, it eventually led to a new kind of coaching. 0:02:46.396 --> 0:02:49.236 In the past, it used to be that many coaching 0:02:49.276 --> 0:02:52.836 positions were almost a sine cure. That's Ben Lindberg, co 0:02:52.956 --> 0:02:56.396 author of a book called The MVP Machine. It's about 0:02:56.436 --> 0:02:59.916 a revolution in how the world's best baseball players get coached. 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:03.596 It was the coaches who were the manager's palace, his 0:03:03.756 --> 0:03:07.916 drinking buddies would become the coaches, and there wasn't that 0:03:08.116 --> 0:03:11.236 much coaching going on at the major league level. It 0:03:11.276 --> 0:03:14.436 was sort of reinforcing lessons that had already been taught 0:03:14.836 --> 0:03:17.996 and keeping guys in line, but there wasn't that much 0:03:18.036 --> 0:03:21.556 expectation that coaches would improve players once they got to 0:03:21.636 --> 0:03:24.836 that level. But that was about to change big time. 0:03:25.956 --> 0:03:28.436 Ben was part of a huge and growing crowd of 0:03:28.556 --> 0:03:31.796 data geeks outside of baseball who spent lots and lots 0:03:31.796 --> 0:03:34.916 of time analyzing players and building models to try to 0:03:34.956 --> 0:03:39.836 predict their performance. As sophisticated as the statistical projection models are, 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:42.876 they'll only really look at the player's past performance and 0:03:43.036 --> 0:03:45.956 his age and maybe some comparable players from the past, 0:03:45.996 --> 0:03:48.756 and they'll spit out a projection that say, well, he 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:51.196 was this good in the past few years, and we'll 0:03:51.196 --> 0:03:53.316 adjust for the ballpark, and here's how old he is, 0:03:53.356 --> 0:03:56.356 and so here's our median projection for him, and so 0:03:56.396 --> 0:03:58.356 all of a sudden, there players who are just busting 0:03:58.356 --> 0:04:02.076 out of those projections exactly, And a projection system would 0:04:02.156 --> 0:04:04.716 never forecast that. It might say that someone's going to 0:04:04.756 --> 0:04:07.516 get a bit better, a bit worse, but typically it 0:04:07.556 --> 0:04:09.756 won't say that someone is going to do something that's 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:13.196 completely out of line with their past performance. In other words, 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:15.636 teams had gotten really good, or at least a lot 0:04:15.676 --> 0:04:19.316 better at evaluating the potential of all their players, but 0:04:19.396 --> 0:04:23.236 the players were still playing better than expected, so much 0:04:23.276 --> 0:04:26.236 better that the analysts were a bit suspicious. But the 0:04:26.276 --> 0:04:30.036 last time you saw this was with the steroids era, 0:04:30.396 --> 0:04:32.676 that all of a sudden, people players were performing in 0:04:32.716 --> 0:04:36.276 ways that the projection models would never have guessed. And 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:39.396 you're so you're kind of seeing it, but without an 0:04:39.916 --> 0:04:44.756 explanation as obvious as steroids exactly. Yeah, then started looking 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:47.356 into what these players were doing. The ones who were 0:04:47.436 --> 0:04:53.116 dramatically exceeding the analysts expectations, the overperformers, all had something 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:57.196 in common. Coaches who use new technology. One of the 0:04:57.316 --> 0:05:01.756 really big innovations has been the high speed camera. So 0:05:01.916 --> 0:05:06.996 a company called Edgrotronic, which developed these cameras for scientific purposes, 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:09.876 has found that much of its business has come from 0:05:09.916 --> 0:05:13.116 baseball teams because baseball teams have found that if you 0:05:13.196 --> 0:05:16.516 train these high speed cameras on players, you can perceive 0:05:16.636 --> 0:05:20.276 things about players movement that they didn't know about themselves. 0:05:20.756 --> 0:05:23.836 And the coaches using these cameras were very different from 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:28.756 the old school baseball coaches, the Sinecure guys. For a start, 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:32.836 the new coaches weren't former big league players. In some cases, 0:05:32.996 --> 0:05:35.436 they didn't even know any big league players. My name 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:38.196 is Kyle Bodie. Like this guy, I was twenty two 0:05:38.276 --> 0:05:42.356 years old started coaching little league and I realized quickly 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:45.716 that I just didn't know anything about coaching. Kyle had 0:05:45.756 --> 0:05:48.556 just moved from Ohio to Seattle, where he landed a 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:51.636 part time job as a little league coach. Yep, that's 0:05:51.636 --> 0:05:54.556 how he started in life as a little league baseball coach. 0:05:54.876 --> 0:05:57.556 Ed played some my father was a coach, but I 0:05:57.676 --> 0:06:00.076 figured I owed it to the kids to learn just 0:06:00.116 --> 0:06:02.596 a little bit more about keeping their arms healthy. And 0:06:02.676 --> 0:06:05.956 he had some questions like how many pitches should a 0:06:06.036 --> 0:06:08.356 kid be allowed to throw? And what was the best 0:06:08.356 --> 0:06:10.836 way to throw him? I mean, I was once a pitcher, 0:06:10.916 --> 0:06:12.716 and I spent half my life with my arm in 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:15.356 an ice bucket. To this day, I can't sleep on 0:06:15.396 --> 0:06:18.796 my right shoulder throwing a ball overhand. It might look 0:06:18.836 --> 0:06:21.356 like a natural and healthy thing to do, but it's not. 0:06:22.596 --> 0:06:25.276 Kyle body looked around for research on the subject, but 0:06:25.396 --> 0:06:29.356 unfortunately it was all very nonspecific kind of very academic research, 0:06:30.076 --> 0:06:33.276 and then the training programs and the coaching programs that 0:06:33.316 --> 0:06:37.356 were out there were very bland, not based on any 0:06:37.356 --> 0:06:40.916 sort of evidence. It really shocked me, So Kyle started 0:06:40.956 --> 0:06:43.636 to do research on his own. Then he got a 0:06:43.676 --> 0:06:46.196 promotion from Little league to the freshman team at a 0:06:46.236 --> 0:06:50.076 Seattle high school. But he found himself at war with 0:06:50.196 --> 0:06:53.716 the JV and varsity coaches at the high school. They 0:06:53.716 --> 0:06:56.956 were coaching the old fashioned way, telling players what to do, 0:06:57.836 --> 0:07:00.356 hollering at them when they screwed up, praising them when 0:07:00.396 --> 0:07:04.316 they didn't. Actively coaching athletes just typically makes them worse. 0:07:04.916 --> 0:07:07.876 Just intervention is typically one of the worst things you 0:07:07.916 --> 0:07:10.596 can do. What are the points of friction with the 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:13.636 old coaching model, Like, what specifically kind of things would 0:07:13.676 --> 0:07:17.716 you do that were heretical. So informing the athlete that, like, 0:07:18.076 --> 0:07:21.036 whatever they're doing is not good enough and then just 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:24.116 seeing how they change over time and how they will 0:07:24.156 --> 0:07:28.676 self organize was a real heretical idea, right because most 0:07:28.676 --> 0:07:31.596 coaches think that they have a lot to give to 0:07:31.676 --> 0:07:34.476 the athlete, and my view on it still is today 0:07:35.116 --> 0:07:36.956 is that they're good enough, like we just need to 0:07:36.956 --> 0:07:38.876 give them the right direction and let them figure it 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:40.676 out for the most part. You ever read a book 0:07:40.716 --> 0:07:43.036 called The Inner Game of Tennis? I have, Yeah, it's 0:07:43.036 --> 0:07:48.956 one of my favorites. Anyway, In his first year coaching, 0:07:49.076 --> 0:07:51.916 Kyle's freshman team won as many games as they lost, 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:55.556 which was actually pretty great. That season, the school's varsity 0:07:55.556 --> 0:07:58.676 and JV teams were losing most of their games. But 0:07:58.716 --> 0:08:00.796 at the end of the year, the head coach fired 0:08:00.916 --> 0:08:04.596 Kyle because the other coaches hated his methods. They thought 0:08:04.596 --> 0:08:07.956 he had no clue how to coach. That didn't stop Kyle. 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:12.316 He doubled down on his approach, and he wound up 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:17.516 building what amounted to a baseball bionic manfactory drive line Baseball, 0:08:17.556 --> 0:08:22.436 he called it. So describe to me this laboratory you build. 0:08:22.836 --> 0:08:27.036 In its current incarnation, it's about fifteen high speed motion 0:08:27.076 --> 0:08:30.916 tracking cameras. There's force plates in there to measure ground 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:34.796 reaction forces. Attracts every movement two hundred forty times per second, 0:08:35.356 --> 0:08:38.236 and it's submillimeter accurate, so every movement can be tracked 0:08:38.236 --> 0:08:41.116 down to at least one millimeter of accuracy, and usually 0:08:41.196 --> 0:08:48.276 much better. Let's go one hundred point four ninety three 0:08:48.316 --> 0:08:52.476 point seven the high speed cameras allow Kyle to measure 0:08:52.516 --> 0:08:56.236 the speed of a pitcher's arm, among other things, the 0:08:56.356 --> 0:08:58.876 faster a pitcher's arm, the faster the ball comes out 0:08:58.876 --> 0:09:04.676 of it in theory one hundred three point zero. In practice, 0:09:04.796 --> 0:09:07.556 not all pictures are able to translate their arm speed 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:11.156 into ball speed. Two guys with the exact same arm 0:09:11.236 --> 0:09:14.996 speeds might throw very different fastballs. If someone's arm speed 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:18.516 is extremely high and the ball comes out at like 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:22.316 a lower predictive velocity based on like a regression algorithm, 0:09:22.836 --> 0:09:24.916 that we know that there's some inefficiencies there that we 0:09:24.956 --> 0:09:27.316 should be able to easily clean up. That is, you 0:09:27.316 --> 0:09:30.156 could identify people with the god given talent to throw 0:09:30.196 --> 0:09:33.596 a baseball because you had new insight into where that 0:09:33.676 --> 0:09:38.036 talent came from. So when that happens, are you thinking, 0:09:38.236 --> 0:09:40.996 there's this pool of players out there who have high 0:09:41.116 --> 0:09:44.876 arm speed, low velocity that we can just fix. That's 0:09:44.876 --> 0:09:47.596 all that I think about pretty much every day. And 0:09:47.716 --> 0:09:50.356 could you like drive around with a little truck and 0:09:50.396 --> 0:09:52.356 put people in the back of your truck and test 0:09:52.356 --> 0:09:54.676 their arm speed? Is that what you would do? Yeah, 0:09:54.716 --> 0:09:57.076 that's actually funny. We almost butt an RV to do 0:09:57.116 --> 0:09:59.916 exactly that to drive around the country with our lab. 0:10:00.356 --> 0:10:02.676 It turned out he didn't need to drive around looking 0:10:02.676 --> 0:10:08.116 for people with this weird arm talent. They found him. 0:10:08.636 --> 0:10:10.756 I real that I needed to make a change going 0:10:10.796 --> 0:10:13.076 into the season. I was helping out my dad's team 0:10:13.076 --> 0:10:15.516 and trying to make money in every way. That's Matt 0:10:15.556 --> 0:10:19.156 Boyd Back in twenty seventeen. He was an unknown minor 0:10:19.236 --> 0:10:22.036 league pitcher coming off a terrible season. He had a 0:10:22.036 --> 0:10:25.316 below average fastball around eighty nine miles an hour. Oh, 0:10:25.436 --> 0:10:28.036 and he had an arm injury. The way he was going, 0:10:28.076 --> 0:10:29.916 he's about to be spending a lot more time with 0:10:29.956 --> 0:10:32.596 his mom and dad. Over to the Christmas break, one 0:10:32.596 --> 0:10:36.516 of my dad's players came back and he was ninety 0:10:36.516 --> 0:10:39.516 two guy in high school and he was at Oregon State, 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.316 and after the fall he was ninety eight miles per hour. Oh, 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:45.396 I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, I go, what were you 0:10:45.396 --> 0:10:48.956 doing down there? He's like, I did the drive Line program. 0:10:49.196 --> 0:10:52.516 Drive Line. That's Kyle Bodie's lab. So at that point, 0:10:52.596 --> 0:10:54.796 Kyle would have been kind of a local secret. So 0:10:54.836 --> 0:10:57.516 someone all of a sudden has this kind of miraculous 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:00.396 jump in velocity. You hear about it, and you go see, 0:11:00.516 --> 0:11:02.356 you call Kyle had had you ever heard of him 0:11:02.356 --> 0:11:05.716 at that point? No? I hadn't heard of him. Matt 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:10.636 goes to seek Kyle in his Bionic manfactory and here 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:14.716 we have cameras, great our guns. I go up a 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:17.596 little stairwell and here's you know, a little eight foot 0:11:17.636 --> 0:11:21.916 wide by ten foot high probably pitching lane tunnel created 0:11:21.956 --> 0:11:24.236 with all this technology in there. And there's Kyle behind 0:11:24.236 --> 0:11:27.076 a computer and he runs me through the program. At 0:11:27.116 --> 0:11:31.236 that point, had you ever seen the technology that was there? No? 0:11:31.396 --> 0:11:33.156 And I honestly I didn't. I couldn't even told you 0:11:33.316 --> 0:11:35.276 right today what I saw in there. I couldn't even 0:11:35.276 --> 0:11:37.156 told you what was going on a bunch of fucket 0:11:37.156 --> 0:11:39.796 lids for some for balldrills. It looks like this, a 0:11:39.836 --> 0:11:42.756 lot of gizmos, a lot of gizmos, a lot of wires, 0:11:42.796 --> 0:11:45.076 a lot of interesting looking baseballs, a lot of lines 0:11:45.116 --> 0:11:48.316 on a pitching mound and stuff. And you know, Kyle 0:11:48.356 --> 0:11:50.876 explained to me what the concept of what he does, 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:54.676 and we talked about it, and then we just started 0:11:54.676 --> 0:12:01.716 the program. Kyle put Matt Boy through a bunch of tests. 0:12:02.236 --> 0:12:04.836 The big one was to test his arm speed, but 0:12:04.916 --> 0:12:08.996 he never used the phrase arm speed. Kyle actually never 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:12.036 told Matt what he was testing for. He in our 0:12:12.116 --> 0:12:15.756 lab tested higher than pretty much everyone and still almost 0:12:15.796 --> 0:12:18.756 everyone to this day. He's just an excellent athlete. And 0:12:18.956 --> 0:12:21.516 yet the ball velocity wasn't where it needed to be 0:12:21.756 --> 0:12:23.796 or where it predicted it should be. So what was 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:26.076 the inefficiency? Like? What was what was he doing that 0:12:26.276 --> 0:12:28.196 caused the ball to come out more slowly than what 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:30.356 you would have predicted? Right, it's really hard. We don't 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:32.716 know the rude cause yet. That's that's the actual interesting 0:12:32.756 --> 0:12:37.476 thing is we're still studying, like why this happens. At 0:12:37.476 --> 0:12:40.756 the lab, Kyle hands Matt these really heavy balls to throw. 0:12:41.636 --> 0:12:44.676 He's found that when people throw a heavy ball, their 0:12:44.716 --> 0:12:47.596 body naturally finds the most efficient way to do it 0:12:48.116 --> 0:12:51.236 because it's so painful and uncomfortable to throw it inefficiently. 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:57.676 Matt basically moves into the Bionic manfactory and throws heavy 0:12:57.676 --> 0:13:01.516 balls the entire off season. Then rejoins his minor league 0:13:01.556 --> 0:13:05.476 team and you know, I get down there, I tell 0:13:05.556 --> 0:13:08.756 him I'm I'm full progression off the mount and they're like, okay, 0:13:08.756 --> 0:13:11.956 well let's see it. My first bullpen I'm I'm ninety 0:13:11.996 --> 0:13:15.676 two to ninety five. Oh, and I think everyone's going, 0:13:16.476 --> 0:13:19.996 what the heck happened? You know, and even I am, 0:13:20.036 --> 0:13:22.476 I'm going, man, I'm throwing the baseball up in the zone. Now, 0:13:22.636 --> 0:13:24.596 this is amazing. This is so cool. Like when all 0:13:24.636 --> 0:13:26.716 of a sudden, you've got this new weapon. Yeah, when 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:28.516 you got this fastball that's coming out of your hand 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:30.636 three or four miles an hour faster than it usually does. 0:13:31.036 --> 0:13:33.956 What do you notice in what happened and how hitters 0:13:33.996 --> 0:13:37.636 respond and how the effectiveness hitters have against you. I 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:40.956 remember going in to Double A that season and I did. 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:42.796 We have a catcher named Jack Murphy who was about 0:13:42.836 --> 0:13:45.116 four or five years older than me, and he went 0:13:45.196 --> 0:13:47.476 up and told me, he goes, Maddie, you have a 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:50.036 new fastball. You need to pitch off it. I remember, 0:13:50.076 --> 0:13:52.276 I was kind of scared. I was like, what, I've 0:13:52.276 --> 0:13:54.436 never done that in my life. I'm always fastball, change up. 0:13:54.436 --> 0:13:56.116 And then I mixed my curveball, and you know, but 0:13:56.676 --> 0:13:58.356 he challenged me, and all of a sudden, I'm like 0:13:58.396 --> 0:14:00.676 striking guys out on three fastballs in Double A, and 0:14:00.716 --> 0:14:03.636 I'm going like, is it this easy? Like this is 0:14:03.676 --> 0:14:06.836 all it took. By the end of that season, Matt 0:14:06.836 --> 0:14:08.876 Boyd had been called up to the major leagues to 0:14:08.956 --> 0:14:12.516 the Detroit Tigers to be a starting pitcher. Paints in 0:14:12.676 --> 0:14:16.876 and then paints away both fastballs. Want to pitch to 0:14:17.076 --> 0:14:23.076 Bird another strikeout for Matthew boy to start the form. 0:14:23.116 --> 0:14:25.236 They now pay him five point three million dollars a 0:14:25.276 --> 0:14:29.076 year and feel like they're getting a deal. And Kyle Body, well, 0:14:29.116 --> 0:14:31.156 now he has a new job too. I'm the president 0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:33.436 and founder of drive Land Baseball and the director of 0:14:33.436 --> 0:14:41.956 Pitching Initiatives of the Cincinnati Reds. Somebody asks a question, 0:14:42.476 --> 0:14:46.276 how do you throw a ball faster? They gathered data. 0:14:46.556 --> 0:14:48.996 They measure everything that the human body does when it 0:14:49.036 --> 0:14:52.756 throws a ball. They test theories and find answers rooted 0:14:52.836 --> 0:14:55.756 in science. All of a sudden, there's a new way 0:14:55.796 --> 0:15:00.036 to coach, and it's getting adopted in sports. But not 0:15:00.196 --> 0:15:03.556 just in sports, because there are people all over who 0:15:03.556 --> 0:15:05.636 don't know why they're good at something or how to 0:15:05.676 --> 0:15:08.876 get better. About five years ago, I was CEO and 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:13.876 at a software company and we're growing pretty quickly. This 0:15:14.076 --> 0:15:16.956 is a meet bendoff. Five years ago, he was just 0:15:16.996 --> 0:15:20.396 another Silicon Valley entrepreneur trying to get his product out 0:15:20.396 --> 0:15:25.236 the door by using salespeople. But I was puzzled why 0:15:27.036 --> 0:15:30.996 some of our people were more successful than others. And 0:15:31.076 --> 0:15:34.916 every time we wanted to understand why, we had to 0:15:34.956 --> 0:15:40.036 go and interview people and see what they think. And 0:15:40.196 --> 0:15:45.036 he didn't want just a collection of stories. He wanted data. 0:15:45.196 --> 0:15:51.116 Why did some sales pitches work while others didn't? Think 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:56.436 about like football right or baseball right? If the coach 0:15:56.876 --> 0:15:59.876 never sees the game and the only thing is to 0:16:00.036 --> 0:16:02.076 understand how to get better is by interviewing some of 0:16:02.076 --> 0:16:06.036 the players what they think has happened. So I wanted 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:08.196 to have like something like a game tape and game 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:13.676 stats for sales and AI to understand what really separates 0:16:13.676 --> 0:16:17.396 the top performers from everybody else. You know that message 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:20.716 that you get on customer service calls, This call may 0:16:20.756 --> 0:16:24.876 be recorded for quality assurance. We appreciate your patience. Calls 0:16:25.436 --> 0:16:28.476 for quality. Companies were recording their sales calls, but no 0:16:28.476 --> 0:16:30.916 one was really listening to them. A met wanted to 0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:33.756 listen to all the game tape and analyze it. And 0:16:33.876 --> 0:16:36.676 I then started asking a bunch of other people, you know, 0:16:36.716 --> 0:16:38.716 if we build a system kind of shine a light 0:16:38.796 --> 0:16:41.396 on conversation and give you insights from that. Would you 0:16:41.396 --> 0:16:44.036 buy how much you're willing to pay a meat? Created 0:16:44.076 --> 0:16:47.716 a new company he called it Gong. He went to 0:16:47.756 --> 0:16:51.036 people and said, hand me all the recordings of all 0:16:51.116 --> 0:16:54.356 your sales calls, plus a list of your salespeople in 0:16:54.476 --> 0:16:59.316 order of how good they are. We'll analyze it. And 0:16:59.396 --> 0:17:01.596 so if you'd gone to just one of those top 0:17:01.596 --> 0:17:05.396 sales people and ask what you're doing, it works. No, no, 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:10.076 absolutely not, because they don't know. People think it's an art, right. 0:17:10.196 --> 0:17:12.756 It's like they're not aware that's something that they're doing 0:17:12.796 --> 0:17:14.356 because they don't know what the other people are doing, 0:17:14.356 --> 0:17:16.836 so they don't know what the differences are. The Gong 0:17:17.036 --> 0:17:20.316 artificial intelligence, had no theory about what worked and what 0:17:20.436 --> 0:17:24.156 didn't in sales. It just had millions of sales pitches. 0:17:24.716 --> 0:17:27.636 It searched for patterns in both the calls they got 0:17:27.676 --> 0:17:32.876 results and the calls that didn't. The Gong actually learns 0:17:32.876 --> 0:17:35.596 like it looks at the salespeople and says, like, which 0:17:35.596 --> 0:17:38.596 one is closing more deals, and then it starts to 0:17:38.596 --> 0:17:41.276 analyze the difference. So the software learns automatically. You just 0:17:41.476 --> 0:17:46.596 connect to the calls. If there was an art to 0:17:46.676 --> 0:17:48.956 any of this, it was in the questions that Gong 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:51.476 asked if the phone call data. I mean, the very 0:17:51.516 --> 0:17:54.676 simple one is like percent of talk time? Right, You 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:57.356 and I are talking right now, and by the end 0:17:57.396 --> 0:17:59.356 of the call, Gong say, well, a meat was talking 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:03.236 fifty six percent of the time. It turns out there's 0:18:03.316 --> 0:18:05.916 lots of things that separated great sales pitch from a 0:18:05.956 --> 0:18:09.716 bad one. The simple virtues. They're sort of obvious, but 0:18:09.796 --> 0:18:13.796 they could now be quantified. On average, forty six percent 0:18:14.396 --> 0:18:21.436 talk time is ideal. Thirteen questions is optimal? Right? Not less? 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:25.636 No more so, this alone is food for thought that 0:18:25.756 --> 0:18:28.996 there's a maximum amount of time to be talking. If 0:18:29.036 --> 0:18:31.356 I were to talk only forty six percent of the time, 0:18:31.956 --> 0:18:34.076 would my wife stop telling me that I don't listen? 0:18:34.796 --> 0:18:36.916 What if I counted the number of questions I asked 0:18:36.916 --> 0:18:40.956 in a particular conversation and stopped myself at thirteen. I mean, 0:18:40.996 --> 0:18:43.556 it's not that if you ask fourteen you lose that deal. 0:18:43.676 --> 0:18:47.916 But more than that, people might lose their patience, and 0:18:48.796 --> 0:18:53.116 too less it means you're talking too much. Patience factor, 0:18:53.116 --> 0:18:55.276 that's like a pretty big challenge for a lot of people, 0:18:55.396 --> 0:19:00.236 they're too quick to respond, so it's a good practice 0:19:00.276 --> 0:19:03.996 to pause think in any reply. We all know that 0:19:04.716 --> 0:19:07.196 in theory, at least, Gone could act just like a 0:19:07.276 --> 0:19:11.676 game coach, just last instructions into a person's ear as 0:19:11.716 --> 0:19:15.596 they pitched the product. Shut the hell up, ask another question. 0:19:16.036 --> 0:19:19.516 You're at seventy three percent, and Meek decided it was 0:19:19.556 --> 0:19:21.356 better if he didn't do this. If he offered the 0:19:21.396 --> 0:19:25.156 feedback after the call instead, you know, will alert the 0:19:25.276 --> 0:19:32.316 coaches to hear like three conversations that have room for improvement, 0:19:32.476 --> 0:19:35.996 and then the coach will open them up just like 0:19:36.036 --> 0:19:40.196 a game tape and start breaking it down to start commenting, Oh, 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:43.116 minute three ZH six, I really love the way you 0:19:43.196 --> 0:19:47.356 phrased that question. Have you considered X man? If I 0:19:47.396 --> 0:19:49.676 were in sales, all of this would drive me batshit, 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:52.876 which is why I'm not in sales and also probably 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:55.316 why everyone but my mother is still making fun of 0:19:55.356 --> 0:19:59.036 my podcast ad Reads. But for people who actually make 0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:03.396 their living selling stuff, well, Gong is their new best coach. 0:20:03.756 --> 0:20:07.076 So when I'm engaging with a customer, especially in introductory calls, 0:20:07.676 --> 0:20:09.476 I want them to do as much of the talking 0:20:09.556 --> 0:20:12.876 is possible. That's Megan Dorner, who sells software for a 0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:16.196 Canadian company called AVIC. I have no idea what the 0:20:16.196 --> 0:20:18.876 software it does, but that's not important. The key fact 0:20:18.876 --> 0:20:21.156 about it is that it needs to be sold. The 0:20:21.196 --> 0:20:24.516 more the customers talking, the more that I'm learning, especially 0:20:24.516 --> 0:20:27.516 like I said on that first call. And so the 0:20:27.596 --> 0:20:31.516 longest customer story again is how long they're telling a 0:20:32.036 --> 0:20:35.476 you know, an interactive I guess one long tail. So 0:20:35.556 --> 0:20:39.436 that the customers monologuing, that's good, that's correct, that's correct. 0:20:39.516 --> 0:20:43.436 But if you're monologuing, it's bad. Megan now pays attention 0:20:43.436 --> 0:20:49.716 to who's monologuing, because Gong forces her too. Five minutes 0:20:49.756 --> 0:20:52.556 after every call, she gets a note from Gong filled 0:20:52.556 --> 0:20:56.116 with stats and a color coded report card. One of 0:20:56.116 --> 0:20:58.396 the grades is based on the length of her monologues. 0:20:58.676 --> 0:21:02.436 When the customer monologues, Gong doesn't call it that, They 0:21:02.476 --> 0:21:07.396 call it a story. If you've got a woman of 0:21:07.516 --> 0:21:09.196 few words on the other end of the line and 0:21:09.436 --> 0:21:11.236 there's not much you can do to tease a big 0:21:11.236 --> 0:21:13.796 story out of her, you totally right. And that's when 0:21:13.836 --> 0:21:18.316 I find that my longest monologue, longest customer story, and 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:23.276 talk ratio could be all in yellow. Yellow is Gong's 0:21:23.356 --> 0:21:28.156 color grade for a C. Green is an A red 0:21:28.396 --> 0:21:31.716 is an F. Megan's never in the red. She's one 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:35.476 of Avic's top salespeople and also almost by definition, a 0:21:35.596 --> 0:21:39.596 salesperson that Gong thinks is great. The only yellow card 0:21:39.636 --> 0:21:41.956 she's ever likely to get from Gong is for interrupting. 0:21:42.516 --> 0:21:45.636 I'm somebody who likes other people. I like talking, I 0:21:45.796 --> 0:21:49.356 like engaging. I also like to be right. I like 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:54.316 to help. I like to give the information I think 0:21:54.396 --> 0:21:56.316 is going to be helpful, and so I'm eager to 0:21:56.356 --> 0:21:58.476 do that. So, in a funny way, you had to 0:21:58.476 --> 0:22:00.836 be a different kind of person when you were a 0:22:00.836 --> 0:22:04.876 salesperson than you were just out in the world. That's correct. 0:22:08.476 --> 0:22:11.716 All this lead It's to an obvious thought. If Gone's 0:22:11.756 --> 0:22:19.756 report cards work for sales, why stop there? So after 0:22:20.556 --> 0:22:23.276 I'll be with my friends or with family, I'll think 0:22:23.316 --> 0:22:25.836 to myself, after I leave, God, I interrupted a lot, 0:22:26.436 --> 0:22:28.716 and it's just it's always in the back of my 0:22:28.756 --> 0:22:30.796 mind now because I see it so often that my 0:22:30.836 --> 0:22:33.916 patience is low. Is it Gone that made you aware 0:22:33.956 --> 0:22:38.716 of it more so than before? Absolutely? Does anybody around 0:22:38.756 --> 0:22:41.876 you sense that your approach is changing at all? Is 0:22:41.916 --> 0:22:44.836 anybody noted to you that you know, you're all of 0:22:44.876 --> 0:22:49.036 a sudden listening better to me, my spousehays does that count? 0:22:49.596 --> 0:22:53.116 Oh my God, tell me about that. Yes. So I 0:22:53.996 --> 0:22:56.356 We've had the conversation after we've left a social setting 0:22:56.716 --> 0:23:00.476 where I've said, god, I did I was interrupting a 0:23:00.476 --> 0:23:04.316 lot at dinner or whatever, and she has said to me, 0:23:04.676 --> 0:23:08.996 you know you've been actually better than you have been previous. 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:11.196 You know you're getting better at listening, You're getting better 0:23:11.236 --> 0:23:15.756 at not interrupting. So she has noticed that, Yeah, I don't, 0:23:15.876 --> 0:23:18.636 I don't do it quite as often. Did you then 0:23:18.716 --> 0:23:21.996 explain to her why you weren't doing it as often? No, 0:23:22.156 --> 0:23:26.956 absolutely not. Life is a market. Everyone's always looking for 0:23:27.076 --> 0:23:29.996 edges that other people don't have. Even a nice Canadian 0:23:30.036 --> 0:23:33.396 woman knows better than to give her secrets away. Do 0:23:33.436 --> 0:23:35.276