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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Met, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Pull back the curtain a bit, folks,

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Speaker 1: It has been a crazy day here in conspiracy land.

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Speaker 1: We are coming to you after several exciting, unforeseen plot

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Speaker 1: twist that we will will fill you in on um

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Speaker 1: in in the very near future. But overall, good news,

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Speaker 1: overall good things, and overall, as always, we are so

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Speaker 1: happy to hang out with you today, fellow denizens of

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Speaker 1: the Internet. Quick question. We've been talking about this a

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Speaker 1: lot off air. We've been looking forward to this quick question.

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Speaker 1: Matt Knell. Everybody listening at home, do you have a

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Speaker 1: favorite meme? Yes? I love it. I love the I

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Speaker 1: love the confidence. Yes, exactly what I'm saying that the

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Speaker 1: level of confidence makes me want to hear it right away.

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Speaker 1: While I think through my MEMORALADEX and I'll let you

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Speaker 1: know as soon as you're done, well do do so,

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you, okay, Yeah, I just right

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Speaker 1: before we went to record, I couldn't remember the name

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Speaker 1: of it or what it was. I just remember the

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Speaker 1: image of a person looking like kind of side eided

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Speaker 1: at the camera and smiling and putting their hand up

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Speaker 1: to their head like think about it. And that's what

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Speaker 1: it reads to me. And then you guys told me

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Speaker 1: it's actually called to think about it me or roll safe.

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Speaker 1: And I also just now realized because of this that

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Speaker 1: that is, in fact not LaVar Burton. Um. I had

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Speaker 1: assumed it was for many years, um as clearly did

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Speaker 1: many other Internet folks who searched on Google, because there's

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Speaker 1: plenty of versions of that meme with his name tagged

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Speaker 1: on it. I think my favorite meme format is the

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Speaker 1: Galaxy brain meme format. Yeah, there's like four different images

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Speaker 1: of the brain, like from like a mr I type

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Speaker 1: scan or let's stylized mr I scan. And there's the

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Speaker 1: first one that's just kind of like a regular brain,

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Speaker 1: the second one where you started to see some neurons firing,

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Speaker 1: the third one where starting to get a little crazier

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Speaker 1: than the fourth one, where it's like utter connectivity with

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Speaker 1: the universe, and that is the titular Galaxy Brain, big

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Speaker 1: big fan of that one. Yeah, and there's another version

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Speaker 1: of that, which is Vince McMahon I guess uh, losing

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Speaker 1: his mind over a series of images. Those both of

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Speaker 1: those cases, Galaxy Brain and Role Safe, are image macros,

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Speaker 1: which means that you can take the visual aspect the

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Speaker 1: I guess you would call it the visual implication or

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Speaker 1: theme or vibe, and then you can insert captions written

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Speaker 1: words that specify or evolve the meme and they can

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Speaker 1: be used for any number of things. We'd love to

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Speaker 1: see your favorite ones. And I am so impressed that you,

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Speaker 1: Matt and you know each where each had a favorite

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Speaker 1: that was so that's so cool, uh, their favorites because

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Speaker 1: they've been used in effective ways that made me laugh

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Speaker 1: or think about something a little differently. Right. They cut

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Speaker 1: through all of the internet noise to me somehow. That's

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Speaker 1: that's why that specific one got to me. And they

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Speaker 1: cut through part of your brain as an under as

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Speaker 1: will come to find. So it's it's weird because they're

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Speaker 1: folks in the audience today who knew the world before

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Speaker 1: the advent of online communication. And we're not going to

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Speaker 1: call anybody out, but I know there there at least

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Speaker 1: a couple of us in the crowd who uh were

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Speaker 1: around when beeper's were the new thing. And not just

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Speaker 1: for doctors and drug dealers. It's it's I think it's

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Speaker 1: for all of us, right, everyone here, including Paulish control decide.

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Speaker 1: I had a pagron. I had a green translucent green

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Speaker 1: Motorola patron. Uh For for a time, I had a

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Speaker 1: couple of burners. Yeah, I mean, life just happens. And

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Speaker 1: this is is the thing. Memes now are social currency.

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Speaker 1: They are a form of communication there by nature ephemeral,

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Speaker 1: They move, they transformed, They evolved as quickly as a

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Speaker 1: passing thought. And think of that phrase again, a passing thought.

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Speaker 1: You see him in countless places. Uh. Memes generally we're

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Speaker 1: talking about Internet memes from people talking about memes today,

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Speaker 1: but a meme is also uh commercial jingle right Like here,

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Speaker 1: here's an example of a meme New York City. You

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Speaker 1: just thought of salsa, You just thought of a campfire. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Commercial tropes and jingles are some of the most effective

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Speaker 1: memes or propaganda in the world, a slogan of any kind,

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Speaker 1: you know, a snappy bumper sticker. I mean, a meme

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Speaker 1: is just a communicative tool that is designed to be repeated,

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Speaker 1: um and spread like a virus, you know, like a

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Speaker 1: positive virus. Right. Yeah, well we'll see, we'll see, you know.

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Speaker 1: And also we're we're very much in a glasshouse situation

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Speaker 1: because this show is riddled with memes. Here's where it

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Speaker 1: gets crazy, for instance. So these things, they can be funny,

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Speaker 1: like the Yean cats, they can seem nonsensical, but they're

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Speaker 1: also so powerful, more powerful than you could ever imagine.

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Speaker 1: And today's question is can memes be a weapon of war?

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Speaker 1: To answer this question, we have to start at the

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Speaker 1: basics and correct a couple of common misconceptions. So let's

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Speaker 1: start there. What is a meme? Here are the facts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like we were starting to talk about, I mean, a

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Speaker 1: meme is essentially something, and it's most simplistic a concept,

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Speaker 1: a thought, uh an idea, and a vibe and energy,

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Speaker 1: something that you can communicate and people immediately click and

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Speaker 1: connect with what that is, whether it's just a whether

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Speaker 1: it's associating with a particular brand or a particular ideology

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Speaker 1: or just like we've talked about a format that you

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Speaker 1: can then transpose other ideas onto. I mean because a

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Speaker 1: lot of times these meme image formats that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about are pulled from stuff from pop culture, whether it's

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Speaker 1: an anime or something, or a screenshot from some movie

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Speaker 1: or a character. You don't think about that character anymore.

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Speaker 1: It becomes wholly its own thing that has then used

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Speaker 1: to disseminate the idea that you were then kind of

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Speaker 1: superimposing a topic. Uh. Meme is an element of culture

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Speaker 1: or system of behavior that has passed from one mind

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Speaker 1: to another via very blunt instrument communicative kind of techniques,

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Speaker 1: not genetic as as we would typically think of, you know,

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Speaker 1: complex systems of repeating um and self replicating stuff like

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Speaker 1: like viruses or genes um. Most particularly this is through imitation,

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Speaker 1: which is the sincere form of flattery, but it can

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Speaker 1: also be weaponized. Canton. Yeah, Yeah. The the way I

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Speaker 1: like to phrase it is a meme is a unit

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Speaker 1: of information, and non genetic transmission is huge part of this.

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Speaker 1: Memes are transmissible, they are contagious. We talked about this

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Speaker 1: in earlier Strange News and listener mail segments, and we

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Speaker 1: had this one of those conversations that never really ends.

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Speaker 1: The debate over whether or not this contagious factor, this

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Speaker 1: ability to transmit from one mind to the next, whether

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Speaker 1: or not this means an idea can be considered alive.

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Speaker 1: It's similar to the debate about viruses. I mean, not

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Speaker 1: for nothing do people call a popular meme viral. Right.

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Speaker 1: Ideas move like viruses, They mutate like viruses from one

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Speaker 1: iteration to the next, and they can directly affect the

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Speaker 1: action of other more orthodox living things. Cough cough people,

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Speaker 1: hearts and minds. Uh. It's it's weird because this, this

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Speaker 1: term like this is an ancient idea, right, It probably

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Speaker 1: is older than the oldest written language. But the term

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Speaker 1: itself didn't come into being until seventy six when Richard

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Speaker 1: Dawkins wrote a book called The Selfish Gene. And he

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Speaker 1: wasn't originally talking about the Internet. He was just trying

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Speaker 1: to explain this process of replication, mutation, and evolution that

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Speaker 1: occurs with ideas. You know, slang could also be an

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Speaker 1: example of a meme. Right, these days, most of the

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Speaker 1: time when you hear discussions outside academia about memes, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about Internet memes, and they really started to come

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Speaker 1: into their heyday in the nineteen nineties. Fakes two emoticons.

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Speaker 1: I love giving shout outs. You guys know this shout

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Speaker 1: doubt to Scott E. Falman, the introducer, the popularizer there,

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Speaker 1: we say, the creator of the sideways smiley face made

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Speaker 1: with punctuation a k a. The way to put a

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Speaker 1: little you know, put a little snaz on your text message. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: there's a big difference between Hey, it was good to

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Speaker 1: see you, period and hey, it was good to see you,

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Speaker 1: you know, colon parentheses. That's a little and. And it's

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Speaker 1: funny because this is like that meme, that idea, that

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Speaker 1: emoticon specifically gave birth later to emoji uh. And it

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Speaker 1: also now is considered kind of a relic. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of old school. If honestly, you know, and I think

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Speaker 1: the world are you guys? You know that? But if

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Speaker 1: what do you ever sent me a text with like

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Speaker 1: the punctuation smiley face, I would be a little worried.

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Speaker 1: I would It was like, yeah, I would. I would

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Speaker 1: feel like you might be in an emotionally vulnerable place

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Speaker 1: because you guys are masters at a emoji and memes.

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Speaker 1: So if it's it's done that to you before, I

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Speaker 1: have done that to you, but on my phone it

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Speaker 1: translates it into an emoji. It does do that. I

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Speaker 1: usually use that to defray any potential like misinterpretation, like

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Speaker 1: to let you know that I'm being lighthearted in some

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Speaker 1: way or I'm just like this is not serious. Um.

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Speaker 1: The thing that we've talked about this, but the opposite

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Speaker 1: effect of that to me is the period. The period

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Speaker 1: to me is the most aggressive punctuation mark and all

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Speaker 1: of text them. I know, man. We've talked about how

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Speaker 1: how our understanding of each other's perspectives affects the way

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Speaker 1: that we communicate via text online because so much nuance

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Speaker 1: can get missed. As a matter of fact, about sixty

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Speaker 1: percent of the communication that occurs whenever people are talking

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Speaker 1: in person is nonverbal. It's body language, it's uh, it's tone,

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Speaker 1: you know, It's things like that. The words are sort

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Speaker 1: of a a side effect or a clarifying factor when

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Speaker 1: when we look at this, if we look at internet memes,

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Speaker 1: we know that the like the proper dressed up with

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Speaker 1: a tie on concept of an Internet meme was first

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Speaker 1: proposed by a guy named Mike Godwin in an article

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Speaker 1: for Wired Way back in June who was riding the

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Speaker 1: zeitgeist finger on the pulse. Indeed, and as the Internet

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Speaker 1: became increasingly sophisticated, as its reach became ever broader, as

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Speaker 1: its depth became ever deeper, internet memes evolved in step.

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Speaker 1: That's why we talk about things like dank memes, god

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Speaker 1: tier memes, stuff like that. Like you you see this

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Speaker 1: all the time for digital natives, as Corporate America would

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Speaker 1: call them, where they're like, this meme is awesome. And

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Speaker 1: to explain it to you, you have to understand like

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Speaker 1: five years of the memes leading up to this. Here's

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Speaker 1: why this is funny. And Dawkins was conscious of this.

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Speaker 1: He later went on to describe Internet memes in particular

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Speaker 1: as being altered by human creativity. He called it, quote

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Speaker 1: a hijacking of an original idea, and hijacking is a

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Speaker 1: very important word here. Memes, like algorithms, can subtly alter

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Speaker 1: the viewers perception over time. Like have you ever have

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Speaker 1: you ever been caught flat footed by a meme? You're like,

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Speaker 1: ha ha, this is cools, what's going on here? And

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Speaker 1: then you look at the source and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's from a Russian troll or oh that was some

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Speaker 1: al right propaganda, but gash, that was got all the

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Speaker 1: laws out of that one. That's the problem with memes.

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Speaker 1: They can be insidious in that way because they essentially

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Speaker 1: are masquerading as junk food, you know, or or as

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Speaker 1: just some little nugget to kind of give you some laws,

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Speaker 1: but not something to be taken seriously. Uh, And that

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Speaker 1: is how they are used as a tool or weaponized

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Speaker 1: as this whole idea where it's like, oh, you never

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Speaker 1: see it coming because it's inherently sort of not to

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Speaker 1: be taken seriously. Well, I think the the biggest factor

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Speaker 1: with a meme is that it's easily shareable. It is

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Speaker 1: the most shareable thing that you can possibly have for

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Speaker 1: social media, right. It's it's basically an image that has

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Speaker 1: text inbedded into it, and you just post that anywhere

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Speaker 1: and it can spread like wildfire. And also it's a

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Speaker 1: very low investment of attention. It asks very little from

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Speaker 1: the audience. You don't have to read a scientific journal.

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Speaker 1: You just have to like, you don't even laugh, You

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Speaker 1: just kind of exhale slightly louder than normal through your

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Speaker 1: nose and you go ha ha. Yeah. Peppe added again,

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Speaker 1: you could also argue it's a very low bar for

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Speaker 1: the interpretation of intention, right, So like if someone posts

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Speaker 1: a meme, oh, no, biggie, it was I thought it

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Speaker 1: was funny, and like, it's gonna be hard to mean.

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Speaker 1: Obviously this has changed over time, but it's a little

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Speaker 1: harder to peg somebody as quote unquote spreading propaganda just

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Speaker 1: because they posted some armless meme as opposed to like say,

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Speaker 1: posting a screenshot from a chapter of mine. Comp Right,

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Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny, bro, I mean, look

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Speaker 1: at that that that dog cycle man going, Oh, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about that boy in a second. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: guys are nailing it. Like, in short, memes are more

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Speaker 1: than just internet post They can be at least in

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Speaker 1: the right hands. Memes can use written language, but they

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Speaker 1: don't have to do so if we were to take

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Speaker 1: and I'm still working on optimism with mixed results, but

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Speaker 1: if we were to take an optimistic stance, we we

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Speaker 1: could say memes can bring people together. They can bridge

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Speaker 1: the gap between linguistic barriers, demographic barriers, cultural barriers. You

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Speaker 1: know who doesn't like to laugh. But let's be honest,

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Speaker 1: humans have a well known track record. Human civilization has

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Speaker 1: a bit of a reputation. The rap sheet for the

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Speaker 1: species is long and it's riddled with disappointing, alarming precedents.

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Speaker 1: Humans take new technology and almost instantly ask, so, how

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Speaker 1: can we make this a weapon? How can we use

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Speaker 1: this to get an advantage over those we see as

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Speaker 1: not in our group, our community, or our tribe. Memes

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Speaker 1: are no exception to this rule. We're gonna pause for

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. Uh. We'd love to you to

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Speaker 1: take some time and tell us your favorite memes conspiracy

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Speaker 1: at I Heart radio dot com. Here's where it gets

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Speaker 1: crazy on Facebook, and we'll return to a world where

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Speaker 1: memes are war. Here's where it gets crazy. I'm so

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Speaker 1: glad you mentioned that. Boy, so shout out to our

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Speaker 1: own dat Boy, our longtime friend of the show, personal

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Speaker 1: friend of ours, the one and only super producer Casey Pegram.

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Speaker 1: You've heard him on movie Crush. He's made films with

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Speaker 1: Paul Decant. Uh. He has a favorite meme and is

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Speaker 1: indeed dat Boy, which is created by Josh dhan Uh

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Speaker 1: dat Boy. If you haven't seen it, it's d a

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Speaker 1: T Space bo I and you can see it as

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Speaker 1: a gift. You can see as an image macro it

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Speaker 1: is a frog precariously balanced on a unicycle with a

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Speaker 1: two part caption. Well, my my my favorite is the

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Speaker 1: version of it that actually has an audio track, and

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Speaker 1: it's um I think it's a like a computer voice,

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Speaker 1: and it's like hair com that boy, hair com that boy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the other part that says, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is spelled in qt internet language, right, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know why I am. I am also captivated by that.

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Speaker 1: And there's something about spelling what up w A D

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Speaker 1: d U P that just is like UMMMI to me

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Speaker 1: on some cognitive level. But yes, it can be difficult

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Speaker 1: to imagine something so whimsical and silly becoming a piece

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Speaker 1: of information warfare. But that's exactly how some memes are

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Speaker 1: being used in the modern day. And this phenomenon is

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Speaker 1: a little bit older than people might assume, and it's

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Speaker 1: only gonna grow in the future. Mametic warfare is asymmetrical.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I just have to chime and know

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Speaker 1: here there's this a whole song that's what I was

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Speaker 1: going from. And it goes on to say watch him rolling,

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Speaker 1: watch him go, watch him rolling, watch him go, And

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Speaker 1: then here he'd be rolling down the street, he'd be

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Speaker 1: rolling to the beat. He'd be rolling down the street,

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Speaker 1: he'd be rolling to the bat. Watch him roll up,

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Speaker 1: watch him roll That's the whole perfect Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: fun um. But again, this is asymmetrical. Is low cost

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Speaker 1: investment on the part of the audience, and it can

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Speaker 1: be low cost investment on the part of the creator.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the vast majority of memes, we can assume

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Speaker 1: are just things people think are funny and send to

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Speaker 1: their friends. But you have to watch out. There are

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Speaker 1: wool in the flock here, and they are disguised just

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Speaker 1: like the sheep. So this warfare is also psychological, and

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Speaker 1: it can be enormously effective, uh, primarily because it is

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Speaker 1: so often underestimated when we see. It's older than you

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Speaker 1: might think. You know, you could say, well, an internet

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Speaker 1: meme logically couldn't exist before the age of the Internet,

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't be so I wouldn't be so sure

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Speaker 1: with that. This stuff has historical roots in old school

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Speaker 1: analog propaganda. Matt, you and I had talked before about

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Speaker 1: wartime operations, you know, things like um, things like propaganda

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Speaker 1: radio announcements like lord ha ha is one is a

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Speaker 1: pro Nazi propagandist character broadcasting to the UK and World

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Speaker 1: War two. Uh and you know then it's the war

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Speaker 1: for hearts and mind, same as it ever was dropping

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Speaker 1: pamphlets before the days of gifts. Yes, Lee, on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: I've found this video posted by Andy Black Associates and

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Speaker 1: the title was Mimetic warfare is not a modern strategy

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Speaker 1: And in it it's it's it's archival video footage from

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Speaker 1: World War to showing Allied soldiers filling up these balloons

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Speaker 1: with pamphlets that would be sent over into you know,

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Speaker 1: German controlled territory, and they were designed to fall to

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Speaker 1: the ground and explode somewhat like to an extent, and

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Speaker 1: just send these pamphlets all over the place. And the

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Speaker 1: whole point was to get a message into the minds

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Speaker 1: of anyone living in German occupied territory, whether that those

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Speaker 1: were soldiers or civilians that were you know, maybe not

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Speaker 1: at all a part of the Nazi movement, but it

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Speaker 1: was just to change their perception about something, to make

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Speaker 1: them think about the Nazi forces that are in that

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Speaker 1: area differently, or to think about the Allied forces that

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Speaker 1: will eventually be coming through in a different way. Um,

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Speaker 1: or even just to get them to rise up against

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Speaker 1: the Nazis that we're controlling that territory. So it's just

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Speaker 1: I can't find I've spent way too much time on

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Speaker 1: archive dot org attempting to find the original footage of that,

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Speaker 1: but I was unable to find it. I would just

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Speaker 1: recommend checking it out on YouTube for now if you can. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what else could be a meme is a

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Speaker 1: song you know, like they're they're another thing that could

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Speaker 1: seem very innocuous or like very oh this is just

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Speaker 1: like for fun, right, um, yeah, yes, ma'am she wa

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Speaker 1: or like another one that's uh somebody, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: these things can be definitely meumified. But um. There's a

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Speaker 1: whole podcast series from Africa, Pineapple Street I think made

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Speaker 1: of but it's called winds of Change UM and it

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Speaker 1: is about the notion that the c I a UM

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Speaker 1: helped or maybe even forced the band The Scorpions to

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Speaker 1: write the song winds of Change UM as a means

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Speaker 1: of influencing the fall of the Burberlin Wall, so lyrics

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Speaker 1: being follow the Muskva down to Gorky Park listening to

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Speaker 1: the Winds of Change in August summer night soldiers passing

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Speaker 1: by the futures in the air. I can feel it everywhere,

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Speaker 1: blowing with the winds of change, and then take me

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Speaker 1: to the magic of the moment on a glogy. Not anyway,

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Speaker 1: the point is, if that's true, that's pretty slut right.

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Speaker 1: It's not as good as the Key and Peel epic song.

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Speaker 1: If you guys remember there's a music video where it

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Speaker 1: keeps a running tally of how much money the guy

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Speaker 1: has when you're producing this, and it just it goes

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Speaker 1: down from there. I I've been on a Key and

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Speaker 1: Peel rabbit hole it have I I can't think of

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Speaker 1: enough good things to say about Georgian Peele not another

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Speaker 1: kind of us is the most one of those versatile

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Speaker 1: creators of our time, I think, you know, for coming

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Speaker 1: from absolute comedy genius to becoming you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the most I mean instant first feature Oscar World. Um.

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Speaker 1: But but my point is that there's a really good

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Speaker 1: money but to Kegan's great yes, a friend of ours,

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Speaker 1: technically a coworker, he totally is, but really quickly, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the whole idea of a song or let's say a joke,

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Speaker 1: there's a really good money Python flying circus sketch where

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Speaker 1: there's this joke that kills people just by virtue of

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Speaker 1: saying it to them, and the joke has to be

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Speaker 1: guarded and likely and distributed only in little pieces. I

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Speaker 1: think that, looking back on it now, is kind of

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Speaker 1: a cool satire of what a meme can do, or

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Speaker 1: the idea of weaponizing a meme, or just the idea

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Speaker 1: of how insidious an idea can be once it reaches

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Speaker 1: people and then they want to pass it around, because

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Speaker 1: that's what a joke does, right, one eight hundred five

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Speaker 1: eight to three hundred Okay, yes, didn't do it, all right,

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Speaker 1: I don't know alright, Yeah, are people listening screaming, screaming

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Speaker 1: at their radios. We're gonna say it, but we're not

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Speaker 1: gonna sing this song because we don't want to curse you.

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Speaker 1: Cars for kids. That's another one. So we can also

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Speaker 1: think about first. I love this point to Jordan Peele

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Speaker 1: and Keegan Michael Key. If you're listening, I think you

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Speaker 1: would agree that comedy and horror are conjoined twins. They

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Speaker 1: are very cognitively similar, and it's it's about surprise, right ultimately. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And there's a dark side to memes, as well, like,

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Speaker 1: think about in the days before the Internet, think about

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Speaker 1: all of the disgusting race based caricatures that were used

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Speaker 1: to dehumanize enemies, were used to persecute minorities, And unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: those caricatures are with us today, all albeit sometimes more

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Speaker 1: evolved forms, their stereotypes. This practice, all of these practices

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Speaker 1: we just mentioned, songs, jingles, images, macros, all of this

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Speaker 1: stuff only accelerated in the age of the Internet, and

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Speaker 1: new variables upped the power of this sort of psychological warfare. Now,

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Speaker 1: nanimity is easy. It's you're not anonymous to a government

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Speaker 1: force obviously, and if there's a company powerful enough, they

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Speaker 1: will figure out who you are. But for the average

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Speaker 1: audience member, just someone scrolling on Facebook or Unreddit, you

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Speaker 1: can be anonymous. There's also the problem of false sourcing

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Speaker 1: or at misattribution, whether purposeful or accidental. And then of

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Speaker 1: course there's information control, because yes, communication is democratized. More

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Speaker 1: people can have microphones than ever before, but the folks

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Speaker 1: who run the p A system there are very few

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Speaker 1: of them. There are very few faucets, uh, and there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of choke points there. So information can now,

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Speaker 1: I would posit be much more easily controlled than in

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Speaker 1: the past. World powers know this. This isn't just this

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Speaker 1: isn't just your buddies. It's stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. Chatting over beers or something. People in NATO,

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Speaker 1: people in the U N are having oh moments about

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Speaker 1: meme warfare. NATO has spoken about the power and the

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Speaker 1: danger of memes, and from their perspective, from an international

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Speaker 1: institutional perspective, these memes are a kind of guerrilla warfare.

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Speaker 1: There is a fantastic report about this from a journal

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Speaker 1: run by NATO called Defense Strategic Communications. It's free to

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Speaker 1: read online right now. I highly recommended if you're interested.

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Speaker 1: It's called It's Time to Embrace My medic Warfare originally

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Speaker 1: written by Jeff Geesey in and he later updated it,

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Speaker 1: but pulled a couple of quotes from this because I

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Speaker 1: really like the way he phrases both the the situation

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Speaker 1: and the danger. So maybe we can start with his

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Speaker 1: first just sort of like thesis statement, his lay of

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Speaker 1: the land in this digital conflict. Here's the quote. In

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Speaker 1: today's globalized information environment, the ability to influence narrative and

424
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: perception has become arguably the most leveraged participatory and relevant

425
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: form of power, most leveraged, most participatory, and most revelent.

426
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: So what does that mean most leveraged. Again, it goes

427
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: back to investment on the part of the audience and

428
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: the creator. It's easy to do this right, It's easy

429
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: to use this to great effect. Participatory means that it's

430
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: easy for multiple people to do this, multiple groups that

431
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 1: may have, you know, not have had the wherewithal or

432
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: the resources to wage this kind of warfare in the past.

433
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: Now you don't have to print things. Now you don't

434
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: have to send balloons over the border. You can just

435
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: posted meme, you can do some paid advertising, and you

436
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: can get it out there quickly. Uh, this is a

437
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: problem to put it lightly. Uh, there's another quote, Yeah,

438
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: is that I thought was really interesting, where he says,

439
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: even for those of us who live on social media,

440
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: it is sometimes difficult to appreciate how quickly information can spread,

441
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: the profundity of its global scope, and the significance of

442
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: its impact on perceptions, narratives, and social movements. Once one

443
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: starts viewing the Internet through meme colored glasses, nice one, Jeff,

444
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: you can see my medic warfare everywhere. Political campaigns, contested narratives,

445
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: about news and the thoughtless memes shared on shared by

446
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: Facebook friends and videos on YouTube. That's right because it's

447
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: again it's it's like, um it seems to it's something

448
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: that can easily be shared without giving it too too

449
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: too much thought as to the validity of the point

450
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: that it's making. Maybe it makes a little bit of

451
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: a point that you're ideologically aligned with, but at the

452
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: end of the day, you're not like fact checking your memes.

453
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: But guess who does fact check memes now? Instagram and

454
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: and Facebook. And we'll get to, you know, the whole

455
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: backlash with all of that, and maybe how memes can elections.

456
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: But um, I recently got a notification on Instagram for

457
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: a meme that I posted like a year more than

458
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: a year ago when the insurrection happened at the at

459
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: the Capitol and there I was, remember that dude with

460
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: the weird kind of grand poobop hat on with the yeah,

461
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: the quan on shaman. But I posted a meme that

462
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: I just thoughtlessly shared because I'm like, surely this is

463
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: probably true. But even if it's not, who cares? But

464
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that the Simpsons have predicted like everything,

465
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: you know, um it was an image of groundskeeper Willie

466
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: dressed in a very similar outfit, and they just said,

467
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: like Simpsons did it or something like that. Just now

468
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: a year and a half or however long later, it

469
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: got a notification from Instagram to say, after he's an

470
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: independent fact checkers, we have found that the uh, the

471
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: post that you shared does not meet our criteria for um,

472
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: you know, standards and practices or whatever the hell it was.

473
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: I could pull it up, but it was like, you know,

474
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: really old post um that even if it was not true,

475
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: which it turns out it wasn't. Um. I actually kind

476
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: of realized that because I tried to verify it after

477
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: I posted and couldn't find this episode of the Simpsons.

478
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: But who cares. Okay, the Simpsons predicted this guy. That

479
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: is not an ideological sentiment. It's just more like a

480
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: sentiment about the Simpsons. But yeah, because all this stuff

481
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: is algorithmically driven, somehow, I finally got through the filter

482
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: and they decided, oh buddy, you're you're spreading fake news there.

483
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: Oh boy. Yeah, And and it's weird because I love

484
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: that you pointed out that time gap, right, It's not

485
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: it didn't happen instantly. Somebody went back and reviewed your stuff,

486
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: and yeah, just assume that anything you do on any

487
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: computer might be public in the future. But also the

488
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: impact of memes require immediacy, don't they So, like you know,

489
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: screening them a year later is absolutely useless. Yeah. Like, well,

490
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: like our our pal, uh, that's a very good point.

491
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: Our pal Paul was talking with this off air about

492
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: a vintage meme Twitter account that he really likes, and

493
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: then it hit me, Paul, I want to put you

494
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: on blast here. I'm putting me on blast. Really hit

495
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: me when we were talking about this that, you know,

496
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: pauls like, these are nostalgic, you know, these are very

497
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: old memes there from like and I remember thinking, wait,

498
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: we were doing this show, We were about to do

499
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: this show at least in and now we have to

500
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: ask what's the point? What? What if you run into

501
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: a weaponized meme in the wild, why? What? What is

502
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: the point of this stuff? The goals are pretty simple. One,

503
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: the meme wants to get the audience to do something

504
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: like vote a certain way. You know, the sub credit

505
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: the Donald and uh four Chan the poll forum on

506
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: four chan were enormously successful in that respect. The second

507
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: thing would be the opposite to get people to not

508
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: do something they would otherwise do, like support a given

509
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: political party or a protest or you know, get them

510
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: too not protest against the real life physical war. And

511
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: a meme, this is what we're talking about earlier, right, Um,

512
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: you pointed this out beautifully, Matt. A meme can bypass

513
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: rational thought, it can cloud judgment. It's speaking to a

514
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: different part of your brain because your brain essentially is

515
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: like an agglomeration of different personalities that don't always agree

516
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: with each other. Right, And that's why a song can

517
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: touch someone differently than an essay. Right. And because of this,

518
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: memes are incredibly valuable. They're incredibly powerful. They're also has

519
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: like the petty part because you know, the economy is

520
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,959
Speaker 1: the concept of an economy is the dominant religion of

521
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: this era. Memes are much cheaper to make than say

522
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: a Tomahawk missile, and they're much cheaper to deploy than say,

523
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: sending a soldier into battle. So who is doing this?

524
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: That's a question we're going to answer after a word

525
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: from our sponsors. We've returned, and I have to be honest,

526
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: I Um, it's it's a little bit frustrating for us

527
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: to do this episode because there are so many strings

528
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: to pull. It's a big web, there's so many rabbit holes,

529
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: there's so many badgers to bag. We might not even

530
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: be able to talk about the importance of hashtags in

531
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: this episode, but let us know if you want to

532
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: hear more. Right now, let's talk about the culprits, the

533
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: guilty parties. Surprise, it's the usual suspects. Everyone is doing this.

534
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: Every every world power that can weaponize memes is not

535
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: only doing it right now, but they've been doing it

536
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: for years and their plan is to continue because you

537
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: can't argue with the price tag. There are a lot

538
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: of pros in the game as well, Like if you're

539
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: listening now and you're like, hey, I wanna, you know,

540
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: use memes to fight for some kind of change that

541
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: I believe in. I'm going to create them, I'm going

542
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: to spread them. May the odds be ever in your favor, etcetera.

543
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: But you are outmatched. There are state run organizations doing

544
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: this on a seven basis. They don't sleep and they're

545
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: after your mind. Yeah, in the minds of everyone who

546
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: opposes their government position. No, I'm just choking, but uh,

547
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it is possible, and it is true,

548
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: right and and and as you said, Ben, it's everybody.

549
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: It's just it's not it's not just the enemies of

550
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: your government. It is your government. Wherever you are, it

551
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Um, there's one. It really just good example,

552
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 1: I think. And again we often point to China, Russia

553
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: in these situations because we've from our side, we have

554
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: a government that's trying to prove these things right, their

555
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: investigators trying to prove that there are armies of meme

556
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: generators from the opposition. So when from our standpoint, we

557
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 1: could say, yes, there are definitely groups like China's infamous

558
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: fifty cent Party, uh, the Internet Water Armies. These are

559
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: two of the first recognized government troll groups that we're

560
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: out there and we're active, and they are still active.

561
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: But that's just to say we can't point to I

562
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: don't know, Ben, is there an actual troll army group

563
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: within the U. S government that we can point to.

564
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to find one that's like got a

565
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 1: name right, like the party or the you know, something

566
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: cool like that that the US government has maybe within

567
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: some data center somewhere where there's groups of people working

568
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: on this. Yeah, a lot. You're right, a lot of

569
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: the Western reports are focusing on governments that are considered

570
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: to be U S geopolitical rivals. But make no mistake,

571
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: you know, like if you want to if you want

572
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: to see some trolling, you want to see some effective

573
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: use of memes, then I would look to the way

574
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: that the US military industrial complex uses memes as a

575
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: means of recruiting new soldiers. It's you know, like, uh,

576
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: and that's that's related. But it goes even deeper than

577
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: memes in that regard, because you know, the US military

578
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: also paid to have a presence in sports games, also

579
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: paid to have presents in films, also paid to uh,

580
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: make video games. Actually some of what you're not bad,

581
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: But the the idea here is again to bypass critical

582
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: thought and there is no one above the fray in

583
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: the in the world of global politics. Everybody who can

584
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: get down on this buffet is in all you can

585
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: eat beast mode. And just while we're still here talking

586
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: about government's doing this in in this space, I want

587
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: to recommend everybody heads over to archive dot org and

588
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: checks out a video there titled the Big Picture Defense

589
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: inst Enemy Propaganda. This was created by the Department of Defense,

590
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: Department of the Army in the office of the Deputy

591
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: Chief of Staff for US Operations U S Army, And

592
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: it was I think created maybe in nineteen seventy four,

593
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: and it was put out in at least it was

594
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: released in this way in nineteen eighty four for for

595
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: others to see, not just as an inside video or

596
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: an internal video. What doesn't this kind of work both

597
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: ways though, because I mean you've got examples of like

598
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: Hijin Ping and the Chinese government like banning Winnie the

599
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: Pooh memes because they were mocking him. Um, you know,

600
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: like or I think putin that he banned some memes

601
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: in Russia because they were sort of like criticizing his

602
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: views on the l g B t Q plus community. Um.

603
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I mean, they can be used as

604
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: weapons against the people, but can also be used as

605
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 1: weapons for the people. And it's kind of a weird

606
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: look when like governments banned memes that are criticizing them,

607
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: But it also like shows how power all they can be. Yeah,

608
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. And then you encounter what is sometimes called

609
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 1: the strisand effect. If you ask people on the internet

610
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: to just not share a thing, then it moves to

611
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: the top of the list of things people want to share. Uh.

612
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: This has also occurred, you know with UM. I believe

613
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: it was the performer Beyonce who asked for a unflattering

614
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: photograph of her in a concert to be removed, and

615
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 1: that just made it go viral. These operations are everywhere.

616
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: It's they exist in numerous countries. They've evolved at a

617
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: staggering pace. You don't need to rely on old school propaganda.

618
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: You can target an audience and through algorithms and machine learning,

619
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: you can find an audience or a cause with astonishing precision.

620
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: You can control the flow of conversation. You can redirect

621
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: from one issue to focus on another. We're in a

622
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: new era of what about ism, right, and it's tough

623
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: to catch it when it happens in China in that case,

624
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: in particular, these enterprises like Matt mentioned fifty party Internet

625
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: water armies, they're also tasked with operating on the domestic front.

626
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: And for a long time in the US, there was

627
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: a law that was that prevented the US from actively

628
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: propagandizing its own population. That law has quietly gone off

629
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: the books, so be careful what you read Voice of

630
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: America applies to everyone now right as it was during

631
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: that administration. I believe you're correct. And with the case

632
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: of China and now of course with the US, this

633
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: idea of operating on the domestic front means that these

634
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: memes can be weaponized to decrease descent, to shore up

635
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: a positive image of the government UH, and then also

636
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: to course correct conversations that run counter to these status quo.

637
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: Most of the tactics of online information wors can seem

638
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: kind of abstract, right, Let's be honest. It's a bunch

639
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: of ones and zeros dashing around in a digital cloud.

640
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: But they do have real world consequences. And we know

641
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: this because the concept of information warfare went mainstream and

642
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: came to widespread attention during and after US presidential election.

643
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: And a lot of it was because the Russian government,

644
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 1: through various proxies and various plausible deniability schemes, they spread

645
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: false information via social media in an attempt to so

646
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: chaos and possibly sway the election toward UH Donald Trump,

647
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: who did win the election. Their attempt was successful. The

648
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: question is the thing that historians are still going to

649
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: go back and forth on for the next few decades

650
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: is how much of a role Russian trolls actually played

651
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: in that election. They were definitely in there and they

652
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: were trying to move They were trying to shake some

653
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: stuff up. But were they the force that swung the needle.

654
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: It's a question people haven't answered. We do know that

655
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: Russia was involved, though, because investigators in the US trace

656
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: the warfare back to a St. Petersburg group St. Petersburg,

657
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: Russia based group called the Internet Research Agency. Fellow conspiracy realist,

658
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: what do we immediately assume when something has a really like, yeah,

659
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 1: Internet Research Agency. Yeah, probably it's nefarious in some way,

660
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: shape or form. Right, Yes, absolutely. They used false identities

661
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: and targeted dis info campaigns to a stirrup domestic distent

662
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: and instability in the United States, and then they boosted

663
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: their signal through aid promotions, which means that social media

664
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: companies who are US based entities were collaborators, whether or

665
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: not they knew that's what they were doing. That is

666
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: what they were doing. And this is uh, this is

667
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: a point that we always have to hit because like,

668
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how you feel about COVID nineteen, it

669
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: doesn't to these guys at least, it does not matter

670
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: how you feel about um a protest or a president.

671
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 1: You know, they don't care how you feel about Black

672
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: Lives matter. They were advertising to Uh, they were attempting

673
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: to influence people who were already against or for a

674
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: given thing. They were just trying to widen the divide

675
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: between the American public. And this goes back to you know,

676
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: Foundations of Geopolitics, which is sort of written by Russia's

677
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: own Alex Jones. This is crazy. We talked about four

678
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: Chan and the Donald sub credit. They were excellent examples

679
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: of how to use weaponized memes. It's not a political point.

680
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: It's or at least it's not one applied to any

681
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: one political party. Everybody's doing it. Some audiences might be

682
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: more you know, like higher value than others, but every

683
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: person is a potential target. And at this point we

684
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: have to ask what does it all? Meme? Not f

685
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: oh oh boy? Through speaking of memes, I'm just rethinking

686
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: what I said in this episode. I did say thanks Obama.

687
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: I said it as the meme version of that. That

688
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: is that a thing? Or am I as a meme?

689
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: So I didn't defend people? Sorry about that? Uh? Well,

690
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: the first thing that it means is that you know,

691
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: you can no longer assume that a meme is actually

692
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: what it appears to be, which is kind of sad

693
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: because it does suck kind of the phone out of it,

694
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: Like like this was a cool hot air balloon and

695
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: we're deflating it. I just wanted something to laugh at

696
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 1: while I'm pooping, you know what I mean? Now, why

697
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: am I? Why am I a pawn in this crazy

698
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: new battle ground? Uh, you're right, we can't assume. We

699
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: can't assume that a meme is what it appears to

700
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: be on the surface. We have a series of things,

701
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: a series of questions we can ask that can help

702
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: us determine what the true goal of that communication is. First,

703
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: we have to ask why a meme came to our attention, Like, honestly,

704
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: I would say, no, you kill it with memes. So

705
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: if you send me and or Matt a meme, then

706
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to trust it. I'm just gonna be like,

707
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: that's hilarious. Nol has his finger on the pulse, and

708
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: that's true. I'm a fan of your meme game. I

709
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and it's something that I really enjoyed it

710
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: as like a form of entertainment, but it can be

711
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: like satire. Um. The ones that I share the typically

712
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: rely on being some sort of transmitter of truth per se.

713
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: You know, they're more just like concepts, right, And I

714
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: tried not to be super political and things that I post,

715
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: but I mean, I think they can be a really

716
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: effective form of satire because you just get it. You know,

717
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: it clicks. But um, as I mentioned with the whole

718
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: Groundskeeper Willie thing, there certainly are things that even like

719
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: an Internet algorithm could pull out and be like, oh,

720
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 1: this is actually misinformation. Um, I would draw the line

721
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: whereas if the misinformation doesn't really matter and in and

722
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: of itself as part of the parody or part of

723
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: the absurdity of it all, then then who cares. But

724
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: we know that these things can be insidious, and the

725
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 1: misinformation can be buried within them, and that little grain

726
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 1: of whatever, that thing that's trying to tug at you

727
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: and your your brain and or heartstrings with those things

728
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: can absolutely spread just by virtue of the fact that

729
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: you don't put that much credence and something is simple

730
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: and ultimately kind of frivolous as a meme. Yeah, and

731
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: let's let's look at the other side. This is what

732
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: happens to people more often. I would argue an algorithm

733
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: some kind of arcade calculation and sends this meme your way.

734
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: You're scrolling through your feed, and your feed is curated

735
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: to bubble you. Uh, the for profit entities that runs

736
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: social media. And we've said this at length before, and

737
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: unfortunately it's a real conspiracy. They want to keep you engaged,

738
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: and they want to keep you engaged by showing you

739
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: stuff they think you will agree with, and so you

740
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: will start to feel like you are part of something

741
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: bigger than yourself. It will start to feel like a

742
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: lot of people agree with you, and then you will

743
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: be more likely to become a transmitter yourself. You'll get

744
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: infected with an idea, and that's you know, the idea here.

745
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: Whether or not it's a good idea doesn't matter, it's

746
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: just how how it spreads. So you have to ask yourself,

747
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: what does this meme want from me? What you yes, yes,

748
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: ask not what this memes can do for you, but

749
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: ask what this meme wants you to do for it.

750
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: If the meme is like a call to action, that

751
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: would be the most extreme end of the spectrum. It's

752
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: usually a little more subtle, So you have to ask

753
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: yourself what this mean is asking you to agree with

754
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: you know, humor. Humor is a skeleton key to human psychology.

755
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: If you can get someone to laugh somehow, regardless of

756
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: the situation, then you have made significant progress and getting

757
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: them on your team in some way. It is crucial

758
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: to make people laugh, and that's why you see so

759
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: many orators, so many public speakers going for a laugh

760
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: in all but the most somber of speeches. They're trying

761
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: to get people to be like a yeah, he gets it,

762
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: he gets it, so uh, war with a round? Okay, yeah,

763
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 1: right on. Uh. And the scary thing is I would

764
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: say that on these online platforms are not going to

765
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: help you. They're not supposed to and they and they

766
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: are a moral They are neither good nor bad. They

767
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: are just trying to keep you engaged and to move

768
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: the money, and you're you're a medium through which that

769
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: money moves. Well, it's weird to think that memes can

770
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: can show up in your various feeds if it's actual

771
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: user generated content that is, a meme like this don't

772
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: no matter who is generating it, even if it is

773
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: for some nefarious means, but they can also show up

774
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: in your feed via an advertisement like we talked about,

775
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: where you can literally be targeted by someone who's putting

776
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 1: a meme out or an advertisement out that targets you.

777
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 1: That isn't necessarily an advertisement for a business, but it's

778
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: again to move the needle in some small way for

779
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: a cause. It's very possible. When it happened during that election,

780
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: absolutely yes, and we know that largely as a result

781
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: of the controversy surrounding Facebook, Twitter and so on started

782
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: to make moves to fact check claims, but they're kind

783
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: of slow with it. Their process is spotty. There are

784
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: serious questions and strong evidence that, at least in Facebook's case,

785
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: ethical concerns took a backseat to potential profits. What this

786
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,439
Speaker 1: means right now, if you're listening, is that we are

787
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: in a war. It is a war that knows no boundaries.

788
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: It is waged across the planet. It is waged with

789
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: ephemeral weapons in a digital sphere, and these weapons have

790
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 1: real world, lasting consequences. And unless you happen to be

791
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: part of a professional troll army, right now, you're in

792
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: the same boat as us, folks. We're hopelessly outnumbered. The

793
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: conspiracy is real. The goal of mimetic warfare is to

794
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: move from the cloud directly into your mind. And the

795
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: importance of this cannot be overstated. This is not hyperbole,

796
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: This is not a sensationalism. This is happening, and it

797
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: is happening to you. So now that we know this,

798
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: we know memes can be another kind of weapon. We

799
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 1: know they can be propaganda on steroids. Now we are

800
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: armed with the most important weapon you can possess in

801
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: this war, which is the power of critical thinking. And

802
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: it's not a fun process, just to be honest with you,

803
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: it's it's not something a lot of people do for fun,

804
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: because it's psychologically distasteful. Right to find new, diverse opinions

805
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: that you may not personally agree with. That burst your bubble,

806
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: burst your social media bubble. That's not cool. I thought

807
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: everybody was on board with me. Vibes is a great movie.

808
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: I will hear no dissent, but but you have to

809
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: find it. Though, you have to find You have to

810
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: find it because you we have the responsibility, like if

811
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: we want to say we understand a given issue, then

812
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: we need to hear from more than just the people

813
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: who are hype manning us. We need to hear them

814
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 1: from more than just the people who are cheering for

815
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: us in the stands. We need to understand all sides

816
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: of an argument. Like, for instance, if you are maybe

817
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: you consider yourself an atheist, you have a higher responsibility

818
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: to read the Bible than the people who consider themselves Christians,

819
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: I would argue, because you need to know what you

820
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: are disagreeing with. You need to know. And if you are,

821
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: for instance, um, someone who has very strong, very specific

822
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: spiritual beliefs, then it is also your responsibility to understand

823
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: what other people's beliefs are. To understand why what is

824
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: the case that you know, an atheist or a Buddhist

825
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,399
Speaker 1: or a Christian or whomever is making That is the

826
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: best thing you can do, and it is cognitively difficult.

827
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: We've talked about it before. Human hardwire is limited. Human

828
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: hardwire in terms of the engine of the brain. It

829
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: feeds off feeling agreed with, and we have visceral, emotional

830
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:58,760
Speaker 1: gut reactions to stuff that contradicts our world view, whatever

831
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: it might be. Like you might think, Um, I'm trying

832
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: to think of an example that's not political, because that

833
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: stuff gets brought up all the time. Let's say you

834
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: like soda, but you only like Coca cola or pepsi

835
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: or whatever, and then you take one of those blind

836
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: taste tests and you figure out that if you didn't

837
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: know the brand name, then they were much the same.

838
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: I'm kind of word salading here, guys. I'm sorry for

839
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: the ted talk. It's just this, this is crazy important.

840
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: You have to work against the way your brain is

841
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: constructed to get like to have the best chance of

842
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: withstanding weaponized memes. But that being said, you know, we're

843
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: talking about being active listeners, being active participants instead of

844
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: passive listeners. So I just have a couple of things

845
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 1: I can relate to this before we get out of here. Um,

846
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: when I was a bit younger in my twenties, I

847
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: was definitely somebody who was susceptible to getting a message

848
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: sent to me, usually via social media or reading an

849
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: r A cool and then feeling as though I needed

850
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: to then send that message or that idea back out

851
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: to everybody that I need the chain letter. That's an

852
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: early form or like the the email chain letter. Right. Well,

853
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: for me, it was Facebook, but it was Facebook post.

854
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: It was all Facebook post that's the thing that existed.

855
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: My space was had a different function. This is when

856
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: we were working early, been at how stuff works, just

857
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: before we started stuff they don't want you to know.

858
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: And I just I remember how confident I was in

859
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: all of my beliefs, and that when I was ingesting information,

860
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: it was information generally that agreed with how I felt

861
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: about most things. It was extremely liberal, and it was

862
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: extremely anti um, you know, status quo. And I'm not

863
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: saying that's wrong. I'm saying that I was stuck in

864
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 1: a bubble that I was only getting that information in

865
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: and I was sending that information directly back out as

866
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: soon as it came into me, and I felt like

867
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 1: I was doing the right thing and I was helping

868
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: to like change the world in some way. I just

869
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: think that this kind of situation that we're discussing here

870
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: is happening to many people right now, and that's why

871
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 1: your message is so important. Then of doing do the

872
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: work with yourself to like make sure you're seeing the

873
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: big enough of a picture to understand what you're in

874
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: fact doing, because I didn't, I didn't know what I

875
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: was doing. I was just repeating. I was like I

876
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: was a repeater switch. Right yeah, and and with that,

877
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 1: I think you're hitting on something that everyone can agree with.

878
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: No one likes to feel played, no one likes to

879
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: feel like a rube. Right, Uh, that is what's happening.

880
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: And the best chance we have as a society, God,

881
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: we live in a society that's another name, right we

882
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: the best chance we have is to exercise that critical

883
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 1: thought and to put ourselves in cognitively challenging places. Or

884
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: maybe we're overthinking this, maybe we're exaggerating, maybe we're embellishing

885
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: the problem. What do you think? We can't wait to

886
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: hear from you. Bonus points if you reach out to

887
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: us and send some cool memes, because I'll tell you what.

888
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: I am addicted, no regrets, I scroll through like me

889
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: me underscore, I r L all the time when I

890
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: should be working. It's just great. Memes are just great.

891
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not I'm not being sarcastic. I love them,

892
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: but also inherently super dangerous and insidious and scary, but great.

893
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: You know I really want to see is a smash

894
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: up of the three of our faces. Uh, you know,

895
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: from a still image from one of these YouTube videos.

896
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: And that's probably I don't know about that one. Maybe

897
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: not that one, but I want to see it where

898
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: it's like, what what Ben would say in this situation,

899
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: what Noel would say, and what Matt would say. I

900
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 1: think they'll be hilarious if that could be a thing.

901
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: You're setting us up, because you know our fellow conspiracy

902
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: realists are on the money with this. Well, mine would

903
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: always be like, but they're not so bad that. No,

904
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: didn't someone do that already? Someone did a meme of

905
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: us with like three people like in a fracas of

906
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: some kind. It was an animated thing and it was

907
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: like each of each of them represented one of us.

908
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: And I can't remember what it was, but we've been

909
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 1: seemed a handful of times. But I saw an image

910
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: today that I have not seen memes And if any

911
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 1: of any uh eagle eyed conspiracy realists out there want

912
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: to try their hand at this um, there is an

913
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: image of Kanye West and Kim Kardashian at this like

914
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: red carpet event, and the comedian Amy Schumer did this

915
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: prank where she's like crawling on the ground and it's

916
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: the perfect meme format because Kanye is looking at her

917
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: with just disgust and Kim is like mildly amused, and

918
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: Amy Schumer just looks unhinged and clawing at the red

919
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: carpet and crawling on the ground. So what what do

920
00:55:55,640 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: each of those figures represent? Let us know and out

921
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: out to shout out to all our friends on the

922
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: internet who have memed us. I am especially big fan

923
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: of the work of Holly Luja. Uh it's the name

924
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: I suspect as a pun. But yeah, we can't we

925
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear from you. We can't wait to hear. Also,

926
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: any personal experience you have had with weaponized memes or

927
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: as dark as it is to point out, any experience

928
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 1: you've had with someone who who got played, who got

929
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: their their mind or their viewpoint altered by memes, especially

930
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: if you saw the process. Where do I send these memes?

931
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: You may ask, Well, we try to be easy to

932
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: find online. Social media is so weird you shouldn't use

933
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: it anyway. Find us on Facebook and Twitter and YouTube

934
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: where we're conspiracy stuff. On Instagram, we're a conspiracy stuff show.

935
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: And you guys have Instagram accounts, right? Uh, yeah, I've

936
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: got one. It's at how now Noel Brown. I post

937
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: a lot of memes there actually on the on the

938
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 1: old stories. Um, what about you by I'm not on Twitter?

939
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: I am, but I don't. I don't really use it.

940
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: I learn. You can find me at Vibes Fans sixty nine. No,

941
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, Uh you can. You can learn more about

942
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: my various off air misadventures and get a backstage look

943
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: at a lot of the research that goes into the

944
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: shows if you follow me at Ben Bulling bo w

945
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: l I N on Instagram or at Ben Bulling hs

946
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: W on Twitter. But wait, you're saying, hold your mimetic horses, guys.

947
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: I agree with Matt. I don't sip those social needs,

948
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: but I do need to contact you. Well, we have

949
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: another way for you to do it, and you don't

950
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: have to get on a computer. That's right. You can

951
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: give us a telephone call using analog methods, antiquated technology,

952
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: or you know, I cellular phone will also do the trick.

953
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: You can call us A one A three three S

954
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: T d W y t K, leave a message to

955
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: the sound of Ben's dulcet tones three minutes of the

956
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: time that you shall have to tell your tale or

957
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: share your verbal meme or what have you Your miss

958
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: of um, and then make sure to let us know

959
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: at the end, or at the beginning, or somewhere in

960
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: the middle what to call you. Give yourself a cool nickname,

961
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: let us know if you want to remain anonymous. If

962
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: you feel really strongly about it, we'll even use one

963
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: of those fancy schmancy voice disguisers on you because we

964
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 1: love you that much, And then you might hear yourself

965
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: one of our weekly listener mail episodes. Yes, Yes, and hey.

966
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: If you don't like using your phone for what it's

967
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: meant to be, which is a phone, that's okay. You

968
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: can also send us a good old fashioned email. We

969
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff they

970
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of I

971
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit

972
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

973
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.