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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress,

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Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how

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Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think

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Speaker 1: they're still going. Today's guest is not only one of

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Speaker 1: my very best friends, he is one of my very

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Speaker 1: favorite recording artists on Earth. It's none other than the

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Speaker 1: incredible Jack Garrett. He has a brand new album out

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Speaker 1: now called Love, Death and Dancing, and today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about how he came to create both the

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Speaker 1: album and the visual film that accompanies it, How and

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Speaker 1: why he started making music in the first place, who

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Speaker 1: some of his inspirations are, how he grew up training

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Speaker 1: his ear hiatus, that he took from music to examine

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Speaker 1: mental health, and how he prioritizes real, vulnerable and substantive

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Speaker 1: conversations around mental health. Today. There is so much to

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Speaker 1: enjoy in this episode. See on the other side. This

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Speaker 1: is a time for great introspection, for examination of language

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Speaker 1: and how we spend our privilege and all of these

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Speaker 1: things we're talking about. And and yet it's it's the both,

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Speaker 1: and we do have to figure out how as individuals

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Speaker 1: to find some purpose to take care of ourselves, to

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Speaker 1: mitigate you know, the stress on mental health and and

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Speaker 1: so on and so forth. So what are you doing

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Speaker 1: for you in the midst of widening your perspective? You know,

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Speaker 1: are are you writing music? Do you find that you're

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Speaker 1: playing more music? Are you are you having trouble focusing?

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Speaker 1: I mean where where? Where do you kind of find

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Speaker 1: yourself now this this many weeks into this thing. My

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Speaker 1: my issue at the moment is I'm so deep in

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Speaker 1: the world of promoting an album. I'm finding it hard

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Speaker 1: to I'm finding it hard to like take stock of

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Speaker 1: the rest of what I could be doing, like so

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Speaker 1: much of it. I love my job. I love everything

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Speaker 1: about my job. But like I I love, I love

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Speaker 1: everything about my job so much so I am annoying

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Speaker 1: to work with because I want to be involved with

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Speaker 1: every part of what my job touches, whether that's you know,

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Speaker 1: writing the song and then producing the song, through mixing

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Speaker 1: it and mastering it, to how it's packaged, how it's marketed,

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Speaker 1: the design of everything that goes around it. I want

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Speaker 1: to and should be, I believe, involved in every single

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Speaker 1: moment of that of those decisions, um and again. It

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Speaker 1: makes me annoying to work with because I am I

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Speaker 1: am very picky about about the things I like. I'm

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Speaker 1: very good, I always say, I'm very good at noticing

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Speaker 1: what I don't like. I'm not very good at knowing

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Speaker 1: what I do like until I see it. And but

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Speaker 1: but that helps me make the right decisions. I think

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Speaker 1: is if something, if I'm presented with something, I can

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Speaker 1: go I don't like this. I don't like this, I

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Speaker 1: don't like this. The rest of it is great, So

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Speaker 1: let's keep that and let's change the other bits. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, I've got to be better at doing

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Speaker 1: that because that makes me a pain to work with.

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Speaker 1: But but what it's leaving to me too is this

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Speaker 1: is my brain is so enwrapped in that way of thinking.

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Speaker 1: It's finding it hard to it's finding it hard to create. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think. I mean, like I've been desperate to get

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Speaker 1: up into this room, which is like where I am

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Speaker 1: right now. Is I'm in my studio at home, which

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Speaker 1: is just a bedroom at the top of my this

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Speaker 1: house I'm renting in London, and I've got all of

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Speaker 1: my toys in there. And if you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if anyone who's listening has seen any of the

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Speaker 1: like shows or streams I've been doing. It's it's the

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Speaker 1: room in which I sit in those is exactly where

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Speaker 1: I am right now. So I'm surrounded by toys and

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Speaker 1: things that make noise, and I find it hard to

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Speaker 1: at the moment, I find it hard to ride the

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Speaker 1: wave that will get me to the shore of an

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Speaker 1: idea like it's it's it's kind of tough because I'm

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Speaker 1: on one hand thinking about promoting a record, so I'm

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Speaker 1: in quite like a clinical way of thinking, and I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, promotional things. But then at the

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Speaker 1: same time, I'm also performing these songs for radio shows

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Speaker 1: and you know, um tuning into Facebook streams for like

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Speaker 1: I already said, like radio stations in America, and at

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Speaker 1: the same time, I'm doing phone interviews and all that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. I mean, I mean like I'm in

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Speaker 1: I'm in business mode, and I really enjoy that because

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Speaker 1: I only get to do it when I'm putting an

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Speaker 1: album out or when I'm putting new music out, and

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Speaker 1: I thrive in this place. I enjoy this place. I

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Speaker 1: get to be a version of myself that I find

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Speaker 1: quite interesting because it's so not like who I am usually.

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Speaker 1: I get to use all the decisiveness that I'm usually

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Speaker 1: so bad at doing. I'm I'm my harshest critic, and

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Speaker 1: I'm the worst person to make a decision about anything

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Speaker 1: because I overthink when I'm in this mode. That guy

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Speaker 1: just disappeared is I don't know. I I need to

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Speaker 1: be better at being able to have that version of

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Speaker 1: myself coexist with the more creative versions of myself because

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Speaker 1: I think, I think that decisive part of who I

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Speaker 1: am could be really important in my creativity. But he

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Speaker 1: just he's not there when I'm creating. He's somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: which which again this this ven diagram thing, this trod

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Speaker 1: in his box, this I'm everything and none of them

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Speaker 1: all at once kind of thing. I need that part

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Speaker 1: of me to be there to make decisions, but I

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Speaker 1: don't need him there if what he's going to do

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Speaker 1: is overthink the decisions that he's making. And that guy,

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Speaker 1: so that business guy is great when I need him

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Speaker 1: to be there, like right now, not in this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm with a friend and I'm talking about fun stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's easy for him to just take a break. But

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Speaker 1: like when I'm when I'm in a meeting with my label,

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Speaker 1: that that's that's who I am in that moment, and

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Speaker 1: he and like I said, he makes decisions and he

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Speaker 1: thinks about things and he seems to know what he's

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Speaker 1: talking about, which is very much not like who I

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Speaker 1: am when I'm in creating something. I don't want him

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Speaker 1: to be there all the time, because otherwise I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be making music from a business perspective or from

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Speaker 1: a from a clinical perspective. But then again, the other

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Speaker 1: question is can he be there a bit? Is that

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Speaker 1: going to help me make good decisions quickly? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's weird, but but but everything

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Speaker 1: that I've said is relevant to just my creative experience,

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Speaker 1: regardless or not as to whether I'm like stuck inside

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Speaker 1: because of a pandemic. I think actually i've been. My

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Speaker 1: brain has been quite good at disassociating from like what's

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Speaker 1: going on ten ft outside on the pavement and just

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Speaker 1: allowing me to kind of exist in this room and

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Speaker 1: and work when I need to. M hmm. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if for people like us who do spend so much

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Speaker 1: time on the road for work, and I mean, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm always gone, and you when you're touring

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Speaker 1: are quite literally in a different city every day or

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Speaker 1: every other day. Yeah. Do you think that maybe some

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Speaker 1: of what might be good for for creatives about this

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Speaker 1: being at home is is the ability to nest a

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Speaker 1: bit too. You know, you've been able to, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: set up your studio. You know, you've got all these

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Speaker 1: noisemakers that you've collected that that now have this place

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Speaker 1: and you can work. You know, I again, in trying

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Speaker 1: to find some elements of lightness in this dark time,

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Speaker 1: I've really tried to practice a lot of gratitude for

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Speaker 1: the ability to be at home and work from home

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Speaker 1: and not be on a plane every four days. You know. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder as this all continues, I wonder what.

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Speaker 1: I wonder what might get made out of out of

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Speaker 1: that space. Yeah. Something my manager said the other day

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Speaker 1: that really made me kind of take stuff and think

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Speaker 1: it was I he said when I was talking to

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Speaker 1: the other day, he was saying, everyone's going to have

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Speaker 1: a comeback show after this. Every single musician, every single

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Speaker 1: one of them. There is not a single musician who

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Speaker 1: isn't going to have that moment when they play their

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Speaker 1: first show again. Right, every single musician on the planet

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Speaker 1: who is touring and doing all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: When they do their first show, that's what it's going

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Speaker 1: to be. It's going to be their first show back.

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Speaker 1: And I that's the that's the thing that kind of

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Speaker 1: that's that's where I that hits me where I live

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Speaker 1: because I nest anyway when I'm writing, because I have to,

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Speaker 1: because I'm on my own when I'm doing it, so

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Speaker 1: so me like, and that's what I mean about, Like

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Speaker 1: those ten ft from where I am in here to

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Speaker 1: where the pavement is. I've been able to put up

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Speaker 1: a barrier there for so long anyway, the that that's

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Speaker 1: kind of no different for me now. But me being

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Speaker 1: in here, my my issues are still the same. My

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Speaker 1: my either lack of or overwhelming amount of creativity is

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Speaker 1: still something. It's a you know, a lion. I'm constantly

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Speaker 1: trying to attain. But the thing that I'm so interested

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Speaker 1: about is like, how how how how to react when

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Speaker 1: I do that first show, when I walk out on

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Speaker 1: that first stage. Do I reference it? Should I? Is

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Speaker 1: that the point? Do we want to be reminded or

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Speaker 1: do do we just want to live in the moment

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Speaker 1: of the show, like you know from the shows that

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Speaker 1: I do I have this, have this unspoken contract with

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Speaker 1: my audience where I refuse to let them leave unless

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Speaker 1: they're as tired as I am, and as tired and

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Speaker 1: as stressed as I am. Like, I still want that

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Speaker 1: feeling to be the same. I don't. I don't want

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Speaker 1: I don't want this to have affected I don't want

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Speaker 1: this to affect that moment so much so that it

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Speaker 1: becomes the reason why we have that moment. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be the reason we have that moment anyway. I

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Speaker 1: just want to know the first time I do a

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Speaker 1: show that I want to know that's why we're all there.

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Speaker 1: It's still we're there for the show, We're there for

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Speaker 1: the live music. I don't. Yeah, Well, it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: again it's a simultaneous truth that first show back for

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Speaker 1: all of us will be a reclamation and it will

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Speaker 1: all so be a welcome departure. It's both, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we want we want the departure from this reality and

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Speaker 1: we want to reclaim our group experience. The cantarsis the

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Speaker 1: the you know, to your point that the overwhelmingly fun

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Speaker 1: exhaustion you feel at the end of a great show

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Speaker 1: because you've been shouting and dancing and sweating, and you

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Speaker 1: know that's going to be such an interesting thing too,

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Speaker 1: to get back. And it makes me think, you know,

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Speaker 1: when when you talk about the relationship where you have

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Speaker 1: to your audience and the way that you perform, you

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Speaker 1: do you put everything out on the stage. And because

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Speaker 1: you're the only one playing, you know, I think there's

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Speaker 1: so many people who hear your records and think like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that guy's I wonder who's in his band? And I

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Speaker 1: always laugh because I'm like, hello, it's just him. You know,

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Speaker 1: you you are this savants you know, mad, freaky, genius, prodigy.

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Speaker 1: These are words I used to describe you. I know

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Speaker 1: you're turning red. I don't care. Don't disagree with every

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Speaker 1: single one of them. Well I know that right, and

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Speaker 1: I'm here to have a debate with you about it.

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Speaker 1: That's not helpful for our podcast. But you know, the

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Speaker 1: amazing thing about watching you do what you do is

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Speaker 1: that you do all of it and and you have

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Speaker 1: such an incredible I think about your brain a bit

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Speaker 1: like a library of like many records and sounds, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's awesome. And I've seen you play so many

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Speaker 1: different kinds of shows and so many different kinds of music.

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Speaker 1: And and I'm curious, you know, because obviously we've we've

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Speaker 1: taken a leap off the high dive into where we

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Speaker 1: are today. But one of the things I like to

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Speaker 1: do with people is is go back. And I know

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Speaker 1: I know many things about your childhood because you're one

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Speaker 1: of my best friends. But for the audience, we'll go

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Speaker 1: back to some things I already know, which is where

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Speaker 1: did you grow up, who's in your family? And then

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Speaker 1: I want to get into when you first picked up

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Speaker 1: a musical instrument and why so let's let's walk walk us,

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Speaker 1: walk us down memory laying a little bit well, I

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Speaker 1: mean I grew up. I grew up as the as

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Speaker 1: the youngest member of a family of five, including my

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Speaker 1: mom and dad, my brother, and my sister. Yes, the

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Speaker 1: the youngest of three. My sister was the oldest, my

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Speaker 1: brother was there in the middle. All of us musical,

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Speaker 1: not like it was inevitable and inescapable. Um My, my mom.

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Speaker 1: My mom was a firm believer that the firm believer

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Speaker 1: that we all should and must take piano lessons when

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Speaker 1: we were kids, which we all did, and then when

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Speaker 1: we were old enough to we were able to learn

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Speaker 1: an instrument. Of our own choosing. And that's because we

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Speaker 1: all showed in, you know, in a nate wanting to

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Speaker 1: to play music in some sort of way. I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's very much something that is in the

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Speaker 1: DNA of of our family. And going back even further,

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Speaker 1: definitely both on my dad's side and on my mom's side.

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Speaker 1: So like my my dad taught himself to play guitar

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Speaker 1: when he was about I don't know, like seventeen eighteen.

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Speaker 1: And although he doesn't come from a an obviously musical family,

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Speaker 1: there's music in in that family, right, music appreciation and

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Speaker 1: and and an understanding of music. My mom's side was

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Speaker 1: a very overtly musical family. My my my grandfather, who

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Speaker 1: I never met, was a church organist and a traveling salesman.

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Speaker 1: And my grandmom sung in the in the church choir

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Speaker 1: that my my grandfather played the organ in. And you know,

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Speaker 1: so my mom grew up the youngest of um I

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Speaker 1: think she got yet three brothers. Um No, not the youngest, sorry,

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Speaker 1: she was the second youngest, but she grew up and

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Speaker 1: they all had the same kind of thing. Music is

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Speaker 1: very important, but hers was was a secular music upbringing.

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Speaker 1: So music was was was secular. It was, it was

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Speaker 1: it was a type of of praise, which is a

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Speaker 1: very different thing to talk about secular music, and especially

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Speaker 1: like religious music, Christian music. It is a very different

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Speaker 1: thing in the UK than it would have been to

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Speaker 1: what I think you would be assuming or the image

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Speaker 1: you would be conjuring in your head. Um in America.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a very very different thing. Like for example,

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Speaker 1: like I said, my my grandfather was like the church

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Speaker 1: organist of the local parish. And you know, all of

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Speaker 1: those words when I say them with a little bit

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Speaker 1: of British in my voice kind of paint the picture

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Speaker 1: a little bit more um. You know, I think cobbled

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Speaker 1: streets and moan grass and I mean gaslights. But she's

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Speaker 1: not that old. But the but like but but but

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Speaker 1: the point being is that like music is in the

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Speaker 1: in in my blood, it absolutely is um. And when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid, like I said, my my mom,

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Speaker 1: as she did my brother and my sister, I had

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Speaker 1: to get piano lessons. I hated them. I didn't enjoy

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Speaker 1: my piano lessons because my piano teacher, my piano teacher

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Speaker 1: forced me, as any good piano teacher should do, forced

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Speaker 1: me to learn the pieces that we were playing by

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Speaker 1: using my eyes in my hands, whereas I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to use my ears all the time. So the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the beginning of a piece that we would spend

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Speaker 1: the next few weeks learning, she would play it for me.

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Speaker 1: My ears would remember everything that she played, and I

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Speaker 1: would sit down and I would start to find the notes.

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Speaker 1: Rather than read the music, I would just let my

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Speaker 1: fingers tinkle around the keyboard until I found the notes

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Speaker 1: of the piece that she just played to me. And

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Speaker 1: that's not what that's not what piano playing is. That's

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Speaker 1: just you know, that's guesswork, essentially. But but my ears

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Speaker 1: were desperate to do that. They were trying to figure

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Speaker 1: figure music out. They were trying to find a way

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Speaker 1: to get my you know, my ears were trying to

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Speaker 1: find a way to get my brain to talk to

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Speaker 1: my hands. And what my piano teacher did is she

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Speaker 1: would put books over my hands so I couldn't look

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Speaker 1: at them, so I had to look at the music

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Speaker 1: instead of looking at my hands and trying to guess

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Speaker 1: the notes and all that kind of stuff. And I

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Speaker 1: hated it because I was like, this is just easier

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Speaker 1: if you just if you just took the book away.

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Speaker 1: I could learn this piece really quickly. But that's not

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Speaker 1: the point, you know, because so much of what my

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Speaker 1: music upbringing has taught me is is an appreciation for

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Speaker 1: the discipline of it, and her doing that was encouraging

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Speaker 1: me to be more of a disciplinarian on myself when

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Speaker 1: it came to music, to not take the easy route,

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Speaker 1: but to take the challenging route. Not because it's right,

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Speaker 1: but because it's challenging. Obviously, my brain, my ears wanted

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Speaker 1: the challenge of something, and she just offered it to

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Speaker 1: me in a different way. But Yeah, and then when

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Speaker 1: I was like eleven, I I picked up the trombone.

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Speaker 1: That was the that was the second instrument. I officially

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Speaker 1: like got lessons in and started to play. But that

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Speaker 1: whole time doing lessons in piano and trombone and stuff,

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Speaker 1: I was surrounded by musical instruments at home, and I

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Speaker 1: just picked all of them up and tried to play

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Speaker 1: all of them. Yeah, why do you think you went

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Speaker 1: for the trump n second? Because it was abrasive and

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Speaker 1: loud and funny to look at. Literally, that's the reason

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Speaker 1: I like, we got Yeah, my so it was So

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Speaker 1: that was the whole point is it was all it was.

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Speaker 1: It was around that age. It was always like ten

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Speaker 1: or eleven. We could then choose to play our own

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Speaker 1: choose to play our own instrument, choose another instrument to

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Speaker 1: learn how to play, to get lessons in. So my brother, sorry,

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Speaker 1: my my sister, who was the eldest, chose the flute.

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Speaker 1: My brother chose the cello. I chose the trombone. I

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Speaker 1: mean for any I guess, like for any music nerds.

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Speaker 1: I'm absolutely a brass ensemble member. Like if you were

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Speaker 1: to just look at me and you know anything about

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Speaker 1: my personality, I I suited the brass very well. It

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Speaker 1: was either going to be brass or percussion. Um. I

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Speaker 1: was never gonna have a violin in my hands, although

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Speaker 1: I did try that for a bit and just didn't

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Speaker 1: get on with it. But I don't know, the trombone

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Speaker 1: just seemed to make sense to me. Um, something about

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Speaker 1: the visualization of it. With a trombone, there's no fixed

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Speaker 1: there's no fixed positions like there are on a trumpet

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Speaker 1: or on a I mean, on any other standard member

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Speaker 1: of the brass family. Like trumpets have valves, French ones

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Speaker 1: have valves, tubers have valves, they've all got keys essentially

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Speaker 1: that you pressed down. In the combination of keys that

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Speaker 1: you press produce a certain note. The trombone has a slide.

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Speaker 1: It's guesswork if you don't know what you're doing. The

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Speaker 1: visualization of it made sense to me. It reminded me

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Speaker 1: of the of a threat of a guitar. You know,

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Speaker 1: on it depending on the shape of your mouth or

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Speaker 1: the what's called your umbre. Sure you can change the

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Speaker 1: range of the trombone. So on the lowest range for me,

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Speaker 1: that was just like the lowest eastring, and every position

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Speaker 1: on the trombone was a different threat. It just made

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Speaker 1: sense to me. The guitar was an instrument. Already knew

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Speaker 1: at that point, I'd already kind of worked my way

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Speaker 1: around it. But this but this is the thing, is

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Speaker 1: that like I'm over explaining something that was instinctive and instantaneous. Um,

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Speaker 1: the decision to pick the trombone was because it visually

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Speaker 1: made sense. I didn't sit there as an eleven year

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Speaker 1: old and go, oh, well, it kind of reminds me

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Speaker 1: of the guitar. But if I was to think about

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Speaker 1: it now, that's probably one of the main reasons why

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Speaker 1: I subconsciously I went for it, all right, okay, smart,

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Speaker 1: So you you started on the piano, you picked up

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Speaker 1: the guitar on your own. I got quite good at that,

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Speaker 1: and then used your second the blessing of your second

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Speaker 1: lesson that allocation. So, yeah, knowing some of your musical

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Speaker 1: taste in the way that I do, I'm curious, do

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Speaker 1: you also think the trombone. I understand how it technically

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Speaker 1: made sense to you in the way that in high

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Speaker 1: insight you realize that it felt similar to the guitar.

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Speaker 1: But do you think that you also loved it, that

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Speaker 1: you love brass because of the music you grew up

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Speaker 1: listening to. I think there was something in that as well.

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Speaker 1: I I can I can respond to that by saying that,

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Speaker 1: like what every instrument I learned taught me to do,

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Speaker 1: was it learned me to think it sorry to learned me.

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Speaker 1: It taught me to think about music from a different

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Speaker 1: perspective every single time. So, you know, the job of

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Speaker 1: a brass player, no matter what the band or orchestra

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Speaker 1: or ensemble they're in, is different to that of any

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Speaker 1: other instrument. And it's the same with the guitar. It's

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Speaker 1: the same with the piano. You know, I I never,

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Speaker 1: for example, when I taught myself to play the guitar,

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Speaker 1: because we had guitars around the house and I and

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Speaker 1: I saw people playing the guitar, and my brain went,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. Pick it up, pretend like you know

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Speaker 1: what you're doing. The rest will come, and that's that

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Speaker 1: is essentially what happened. But like for me, there's a

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Speaker 1: huge difference, as there should be between the bass guitar

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Speaker 1: and an electric guitar, as much as there's a difference

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Speaker 1: between the electric guitar and acoustic guitar, they're all They're

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00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 1: all entirely different instruments. They're not the same thing just

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Speaker 1: because they are shaped the same, or that the science

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00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,479
Speaker 1: of them is similar. And and and I don't think

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Speaker 1: I've really encouraged myself to think like that. I think

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Speaker 1: I just always did think like that. I I taught

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Speaker 1: myself to play instruments, like I said, by literally mirroring

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Speaker 1: or mimicking that of people who played those instruments first.

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Speaker 1: So I taught myself to play guitar by watching videos

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Speaker 1: of Stevie A. Vaughan, who is, in my opinion, the

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Speaker 1: greatest guitarist they've ever lived, who died tragically too young

400
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Speaker 1: in a helicopter crash a couple of years before I

401
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: was born, in I think or ninety and the he

402
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Speaker 1: he played the guitar like no one else I'd ever seen,

403
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Speaker 1: like no one else had ever seen. My dad had

404
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Speaker 1: an old video at a VHS video for you kids

405
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: out there, He had a VHS of a really like

406
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: a really famous show of Steve A. Vaughn's. It's called

407
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Speaker 1: Steve Evone Live at the Elmacambo Theater. And this is

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Speaker 1: like widely regarded as one of the one of the

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Speaker 1: pinnacle examples of how to play the blues guitar like

410
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: Stevie might have been twenty six in this video. Here

411
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: is this essentially this kid playing the blues and not

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00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: slow blues, not like like not Delta blues, like playing

413
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Speaker 1: Texas rock blues, like like no on had ever played

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Speaker 1: it before. And it was, Like I said, it's widely

415
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Speaker 1: renowned as being one of the greatest examples of guitar

416
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: playing and blues playing in in in musical history. For

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00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: the band that we're playing with him that night, they've

418
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: been quoted as saying that was just another show for

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Speaker 1: that's just that's the level at which he played always.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think when I was a kid,

421
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 1: I was so infatuated with the stories and with the

422
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: with with the different characters that you could be behind

423
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: an instrument that seemed to be the thing that drove

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Speaker 1: me the most. No, two instruments are the same, and

425
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be the same if you're playing a different instrument.

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Speaker 1: I think, I think that makes sense. I don't remember

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00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: what your question was. Well, and maybe that's why. That's

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Speaker 1: the whole point. It's just maybe that's also why you

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Speaker 1: love every piece of the puzzle of your music and

430
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 1: the way you do and you play them. Every piece

431
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: is is a piece of you. It's you. You you

432
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 1: paint the whole picture, which is very interesting. So I

433
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: am curious. So you grew up listening to Stevie y

434
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: Van and who else? What do you think now when

435
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: you look back at your childhood, what are the bands

436
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: that come to mind or songs that jumped out well

437
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 1: that I mean I always go back to. I mean,

438
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: like Stevie Wonder taught me how to write songs. Obviously

439
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: he didn't know that's what he was doing, but he

440
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: taught me. He taught me how to write songs. Yeah,

441
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: I I mean, music was evidently everywhere in the house,

442
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: but it wasn't always being played, you know, like we

443
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: we weren't the kind of musical house where there was

444
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: constantly music on the on the on the radio, or

445
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: my dad wasn't always playing CDs, but he usually was.

446
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: But silence was just as important, and discovery was just

447
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: as important. Like my mom and dad never sat me

448
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 1: down like dad, never sat me down and went, boy,

449
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to play you sever everyone, and you're going

450
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: to like him like my dad. Just my dad just

451
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: played Steve ray Vaughan and I saw the absolute adoration

452
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: in his eyes, and it made me want to It

453
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: made me want to love the thing my dad loved.

454
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: It was just then very easy to love it because

455
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: it was incredible. And it's the same with like my mom,

456
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: who would play Stevie Wonder on the piano and we

457
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: would listen to Songs in the Key of Life, and

458
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: that's that's an incredibly like Songs in the Key of

459
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: Life was one of the first albums I heard that

460
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: changed my perception of what pop music could be. Right,

461
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: here's this album. When I listened to it, I was

462
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: a child, but here's this album that is politically charged,

463
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: socially charged, economically charged, and it's and it's it's a

464
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: hit factory, right, Here's here is Here is a Here's

465
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: a double LP by one of the one of the

466
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: most undeniably brilliant musicians. Um but like his his Here's Yeah,

467
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: Here's a double LP of of of of the purest

468
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: just enjoyment on on record. I can't get over how

469
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: good that album is. And I was, and I was

470
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 1: a kid, and I remember listening to it, and I

471
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: remember obviously not understanding what I was listening to, but

472
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: just knowing that what I was listening to was irrefutably good.

473
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: I didn't have I didn't have the I didn't have

474
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: the context of what great was at the age that

475
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: I listened to it. I must have been six, I

476
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: don't know, younger than that even, but like, I just

477
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: knew it was I knew it was good. I knew

478
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: the melodies immediately. I didn't know that that's what made

479
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: them good. I just knew. I knew those melodies immediately,

480
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: you know. And the amazing thing was the reason why

481
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: I bring up like Steve Everyone's, particularly Steve Everyone, Stevie

482
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: Wonder also like Paul Simon David Bowie, is that those

483
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: were all I'm very yeah, I'm very aware I lifted

484
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: off a lot of men there, and I'm gonna I'm

485
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: gonna get there in a minute as to as to

486
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: what like they all represented the people I wanted to

487
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: be as an artist, right and I because because they

488
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 1: all at the core of what they did, it made

489
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to use this term pop music. See where

490
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: everyone played the blues when pop was when when the

491
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: blues was popular and it was charting, Right, Stevie Wonder

492
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: made funk and soul music. He didn't make pop music,

493
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: but it but it like it was popular enough that

494
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: it turned him into a global sensation. Well, you're meaning

495
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: pop as in the most popular of its era, not

496
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: pop music like that we understand pop to be today exactly,

497
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 1: but the genre, the the the the the size of

498
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: the experience. But to link it back to what we've

499
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: been talking about this conversation so far, when it's it's

500
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 1: it's both and yeah, it's both and like it's like

501
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: pop music in terms of the word popular, it unquestionably

502
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: is like David Bowie's album Let's Dance was was was

503
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: panned when it came out because it was so obviously

504
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: a pop record, and critics were like, like, what's David

505
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: Bowie doing. Well, what he was doing was making some

506
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: of the most interesting and some of the most interesting

507
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: and challenging, intricately put together pop music that the world

508
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: had ever heard. And to do that, he enlisted the

509
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: talents of Nile Rodgers to play guitar and to produce

510
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 1: the record, and also he brought in the talents of

511
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: a young blues guitarist who we might have already talked about,

512
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: Steven Avon, who played the guitar solos on that record, right,

513
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: And like, and I I just can't. I could never

514
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: go back and and look at any of the reviews

515
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,719
Speaker 1: for that record A because it's not helpful, and no

516
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: one remembers the reviews. Everyone remembers the album. But but

517
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: there would be no need to, no point to because

518
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: I understand why it was panned because it was easy

519
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: to pan it, but it's it's it's way more difficult

520
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: and it's way more interesting to appreciate it for its

521
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: nuances and for its intricacies. And all of the artists

522
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: that I've listed did that. What they then enabled me

523
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: to do was when I was in a a huge

524
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: like discovery period of my young adolescence, like thirteen fourteen.

525
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: They opened the doors for me to then listen to

526
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: a huge, wide, varying amount of styles and genres of music.

527
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: But they made me want to listen to people who

528
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: made me feel the same way, which was, well, hang on,

529
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: this is a hook, but there's so much more to it,

530
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: like Image and Heap is a huge Image and Heap

531
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: like taught me how to think about pop music in

532
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: a way that I still don't know if I'll ever

533
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: be able to to think about music in the way

534
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: that she did. When I first heard hide and hide

535
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: and Seek, which is a very popular song, it is,

536
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: it is, it is so much more than that. I

537
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: remember the first time I heard that song absolutely it

538
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: was because of that famous scene from the O C.

539
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: But the first time that I heard Hide and Seek

540
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: by Image and Heap, I my heart broke and I was,

541
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: like I said, thirteen fourteen, maybe when I heard that

542
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: song for the first time, I did not know, and

543
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: probably a bit that, but anyway, I didn't know how to.

544
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how to father I could not

545
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: understand someone could think about that as an idea. It's

546
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: such a simple melody, it's such a simple hook. But

547
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 1: the production of it, the science behind it, the technology

548
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: that I'm speechless. I am still flummaxed by how brilliant

549
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: that song is. Everything about it, right, every layer of

550
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: that song is brilliant. Her performance, her writing, the production,

551
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: the mix of it, the master of it, it's placement

552
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: on her album, everything about that is so well thought.

553
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I just think every artist I've

554
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: ever looked up to and wanted to be similar to,

555
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: I think has looked at music in the same way

556
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: that I found myself doing it, which was if you

557
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: think about if you don't think about all the details,

558
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: you're not servicing the song m and I just that's

559
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: just wrong true with me. Ever since, every musician I

560
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: fall in love with, I hear the details in what

561
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: they're doing, whether it's Prince, whether it's Ethan Griska, whether

562
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: it's um Umm St Vincent, whether it's like newer artists

563
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: like Lapsley, who I absolutely adore, whether it's Little Sims,

564
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: who's another British artist who I absolutely thought like people

565
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: who just obviously care about the detail of the art

566
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: that they make. That's what that's what lights my fire,

567
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: that's what gets me going. So where do you think

568
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: you realized music was the thing that you wanted to do.

569
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: It wasn't just a Harvey, it wasn't just in the house,

570
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: but it was what you wanted to do with your life.

571
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: There's a strange difference there between I think when did

572
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: when did I realize that it was what I had

573
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: to do? Because because I think it was always what

574
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: I was going to do. I went to UNI to

575
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: study teaching. Both my parents are teachers, or were at

576
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: some point. My dad was a policeman for the majority

577
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: of his career. My mom was a music teacher, so

578
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: teaching is in my blood as much as music is.

579
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: And I went to university to study primary school education,

580
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: specializing in music. So I was, you know, essentially sewing

581
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 1: together a little safety net of, um, well, you know,

582
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: if the music thing doesn't work out, I'll go and

583
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: I'll teach primary school kids music. I'd taken a gap

584
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: year and I had been a teaching assistant at a

585
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: primary school. I had the I had the experience, and

586
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: I knew it was something I could do. And then

587
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: I went to you need to study how to do it.

588
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: And the minute I started doing that, my entire body

589
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: went what are you doing? Like why give yourself a

590
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: safety net? And the argument, the argument was always well,

591
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: you know, just in case it goes wrong. And the

592
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: voice in my head that was screaming at me would go,

593
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 1: why are you allowing it to go wrong? Why are

594
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: you allowing yourself to need a safety net? Don't do this,

595
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: Go go run, chase the thing that you want to do.

596
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: Don't let yourself have an opportunity to fail. Don't even

597
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: think about that. That's not that's not the fact that

598
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: that's not like, that's not going to happen. I remember

599
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: after a turn, I called my sister and I said,

600
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: I'm I think I have to go home and tell

601
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: mom and dad I can't do this. I didn't. I

602
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: didn't a term out of my first year. I said

603
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: I just can't. I can't do this. And it was

604
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: she was able to hear how serious I was, and

605
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: I'm not usually like that with her, and she was

606
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: able to hear it. And she was the one who

607
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: kind of instilled the courage in me to go home

608
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: and see my mom and dad and you know, do

609
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: the thing. That neither my brother or sister had done,

610
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: because I've spent a lot of my childhood as well

611
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 1: kind of feeling like I lived in their shadow. UM

612
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: for other reasons, but to know I had her support

613
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: and to and to know I was, you know, I

614
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: was going to do something that my mom and dad

615
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: never experienced before, which is have one of their children

616
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: come home from university and go, this isn't for me.

617
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: I think I need to go and do this other

618
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: thing instead. And the support that they showed me is

619
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: still there to this day. They gave me, you know,

620
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: as any good parents should do. I think in that

621
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: situation they gave me an ultimatum and they said, yes,

622
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: absolutely do it. Will support you as much as we can,

623
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: but we need to see that this is going to

624
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: work for you, right, And I think Dad said I

625
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: think Dad gave me like six months. He was like,

626
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: six months you can stay at home absolutely. After that,

627
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: you need to figure out what you're doing. And two

628
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: months later I moved into London and was making music

629
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: and making earning a living. UM. I was earn thinking

630
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: you're living making fake versions of songs that a advertising

631
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: company couldn't pay the licenses for. UM, for their online adverts.

632
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: I was everything that I disagree with in the music

633
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: industry for about eight months because it paid so well. Yeah,

634
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: but that's like, so there was never a point where

635
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: I was like, I know, I'm going to be a musician.

636
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: I just there was more a point that was saying,

637
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: you don't want to do anything but that. Um So

638
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: I'm really curious because the voice that says, don't you

639
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: dare give yourself a safety Now do what you love,

640
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: pursue it. Yeah, you know, it's very good, kowski right,

641
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: It's like, fine, what you love and when it kill you,

642
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: this will be your only option. But that you know,

643
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: And and obviously I don't mean literally I want to

644
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: be alive and threat but that voice strikes me as determined,

645
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: as confident. And one of the things that I'm so

646
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: deeply grateful for about our friendship, and the list is

647
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: very long, is that you and I, as artists and

648
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: sensitive people, have a real ability to rest in our

649
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: friendship and talk about our anxiety and you you are

650
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: also having a really important public conversation and about anxiety

651
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: and about mental health. And I'm I'm curious how those

652
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: voices lived together because there is a ferocious confidence in

653
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: saying I'm going to go towards that which I love

654
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: and and there's the other thing. And so when did

655
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: did the anxiety come later? Or or did the confidence

656
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: and the anxiety the kind of passion and the pain

657
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: did they coexist? Always they manifested in different in different

658
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: ways as I got older, I the amount of confidence

659
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: I needed to be able to make a decision like that,

660
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, is very much like that of the

661
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: confidence of a young white man like I was. I

662
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: was just giving some poetry slam, but but it absolutely was.

663
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 1: I like there, I there, I was at a great

664
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: university um, studying for a studying for a job that

665
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: I have the utmost respectful, which is teaching, And I

666
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: was going, no, I'm going to be a musician, Like

667
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: there's nothing that there was nothing that would suggest that

668
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: it would work for me right, that that decision was

669
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: was the right one to make. However, there was no

670
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: voice at that time in my head that was saying,

671
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: don't do this, You're not good enough. There was enough,

672
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: There was no voice in my head that was saying that.

673
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: That voice came later. Now that voice has been with

674
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: me for a very long time. That voice that tells

675
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: me I'm not good enough has been with me since

676
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: I was a child. It has it has found its

677
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: way into the forefront of my decision making as I've

678
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 1: turned into an adult, and also as I have started

679
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: to have my decisions be be dissected in front of

680
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: me in real time. I have a very strange relationship

681
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: with with my industry. I say have a very strange

682
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: relationship with with with the critical response to my work,

683
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: not because I don't want to hear like bad reviews

684
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: or anything, because I fundamental believed that for art to exist,

685
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: it needs to exist freely, and criticism of art is

686
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: just as important as the creation of it. The problem

687
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: that I went through is I I was under a

688
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 1: certain level of scrutiny that I think stunted certain parts

689
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: of my growth, not only as a musician and as

690
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: an artist, but also as a man. So that voice

691
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: definitely came later, but it was, you know, as we've

692
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: been talking about this whole time, It's always been there

693
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: with me. Like it both came suddenly and had been

694
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 1: gradually growing over time. I grew up in a house

695
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: that was very I have no I have no obvious

696
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: memory of ever being told not to express my emotions.

697
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think. I don't think I was

698
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: ever explicitly encouraged to either, but there's been that. There

699
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: was no point in my childhood, for example, where I

700
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: feel like my emotional my evoctional growth, my my emotional

701
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: growth was stunted by you know, my family or anything

702
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: like that. I came from a place where discussion and

703
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: debate was important and we all talked a lot, so

704
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: I know I always had the freedom to feel, which

705
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: also makes me take more seriously the way that I

706
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: feel now because it wasn't The hat I have for

707
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: myself hasn't come from tragedy. It's been in me for

708
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: a long time, and it's and it's grown, and I've

709
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: allowed it to and I fed it, you know. But

710
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: that's really it is really interesting to think about it

711
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: like that, because I've never actually thought about it like

712
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: that before. I get asked a lot similar questions like

713
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: that about whether you know my anxieties, did they come

714
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: with the career or what triggers them? And my response

715
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: has always been They've been with me for a long time.

716
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: But I don't think I've ever quite taken seriously the

717
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: fact that they have they have lived inside of me

718
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: for as long as they have done, and that and

719
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: that there have been moments of absolute confidence in my

720
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: life where they have stayed quiet and allowed They've allowed

721
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: me to make some decisions, and they're not allowed me

722
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: to make others. But but they do they that voice

723
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: as louder as I'm getting older, like much louder m.

724
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: Do you find then that music is a way for

725
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: you to exercise those demons a bit too, to to

726
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: quite literally let those feelings out of your body, you know?

727
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: Or or does creating and making something also just happened

728
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: alongside the feelings? Is it a is it a processing

729
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: mechanism or something else? I honestly don't know. I honestly,

730
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: I honestly don't know. I I really don't know. I've been.

731
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: I've been. I've been challenging their words, right, I've been,

732
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 1: But I've been I've been challenging this part of myself

733
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: quite um, quite arrogantly over the last year and really

734
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: trying to look at myself in that out of a way.

735
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: Why do you call that are again? Well, because because

736
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: a I'm doing it for me and and and I'm

737
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: not doing it for anyone else, but also I'm I'm

738
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: doing it possibly in spite of possibly doing it in

739
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: spite of myself. I don't know. It's it's a very

740
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: I think self criticism is so important. I think I

741
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: think self awareness is so important. It's something I take

742
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: quite a lot of pride in actually, is being like

743
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: a self aware of person and something that other people

744
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: have complimented me for. Like I remember being in in

745
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: meetings with my being in meetings with like the head

746
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: of my record label or the record label I'm signed

747
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: within America, the I'm signed to Ireland in America, and

748
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: the head of Ireland in the US is a is

749
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: a guy called Darkest, and I've known him for years.

750
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: He signed me in the UK, and then he moved

751
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: to head up the U S office of the same

752
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: record label, and then he signed me out there as well.

753
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: But I remember when I went out to America last

754
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: year to meet him, um and just like catch up

755
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: with him and stuff. He he point blank says it

756
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: to me, there is there is no one in the industry.

757
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: There's no one. There's no other artist that he knows

758
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: who is as self aware as I am. And he

759
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: knows a lot of people, and I take it as

760
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: a compliment. I think it's such a necessary part of

761
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: my creativity. But what it what it does allow me

762
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: to do, is it it allows me too much space

763
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: to be. It allows too much freedom to that part

764
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: of me, which is something I try and dissociate from

765
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: by you know, giving it, giving it the sort of

766
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: terminology as in to reference it as another person or

767
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: another part of me, Like I give it a lot

768
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: of power. I hand over a lot of power to it.

769
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: I think the reason I call it arrogant is because

770
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: I know I'm giving it that power, and then I'm

771
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: also choosing to fight that power. It's but it's my decision.

772
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: I'm the one who's doing it. No one else is

773
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: doing it. I mean, sure, but it's also part of you.

774
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: It's also part of your brain chemistry, it's it's part

775
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: of your logical wiring, it's part of your humanity. And

776
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: I would wager that being self aware, being being sensitive

777
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: means you you're sensitive to a lot of things. And

778
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: if you're self aware, then you understand what you're sensitive

779
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: to in yourself. And and I think there's a lot

780
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: of people who don't do the work there who then

781
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: are moving around in the world like battering rams. You know,

782
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: people who have experienced a lot of pain and haven't

783
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: done the work to get clear on it or process it,

784
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: who then are just putting that pain onto other people.

785
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a lot of I think, negative

786
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: risk to not looking inwards. So I don't know. I

787
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: love people who are willing to do it and who

788
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: do it courageously and honestly. I I was asked by

789
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: someone that I love a lot recently having a big

790
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 1: sort of shocker, deep esoteric conversation about life. Weird possibly,

791
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we've never done that, couldn't possibly? Um, And

792
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: I was asked we were talking about it was like

793
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: a two sided question, one of those school of life things,

794
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: and it was, what's the worst thing that's ever been

795
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: done to you? And what's the worst thing you've ever done?

796
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: Is that? Like, would you rather find was it one

797
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: giant whole sized duck or a hundred duck size horses? Exactly?

798
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: It's not that kind of question. Different. I mean, I

799
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: honestly I would just like to have a hundred duck

800
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,439
Speaker 1: sized hoss. True, it would be my my little pony

801
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 1: dream come true. But but the thing that I realized

802
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: was the answer to the second part of the question was, Look,

803
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: there's some people who love me who would say I

804
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: what worst thing, like, you're a great friend, You're a

805
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: great ally. There's bo who don't love me who probably

806
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: list various things that to them would answer the question.

807
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: But what I realized was for me, the worst thing

808
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: I've ever done is when as a coping mechanism for

809
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: not quite knowing how to handle something that's happening that

810
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 1: is not okay, or as a people pleasing mechanism when

811
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by telling them

812
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: what my truth is. The worst thing I've ever done

813
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: is when I've turned my back on myself, when I've

814
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: known what I needed, when I've known what the right

815
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: course of action is, even if it's going to be painful,

816
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: and I haven't done it to try to keep the peace.

817
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: I haven't done it to try to be a good

818
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: soldier or a good coworker or whatever. When I have

819
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 1: turned my back on myself, then every decision that's come

820
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: from that turning away has been bad. Yeah, you know it.

821
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: It's a it's a domino eft. So the route for

822
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: me is when I turned my back on myself, and

823
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: and and a couple of years ago, I finally had

824
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: to say, I'm never going to do that again. I'm

825
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: just not. From here on out, this is going to

826
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: be different. And and I share that with you and

827
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: everyone listening at home. I forget that that's happening sometimes,

828
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: but here we are vulnerability our um. I share that

829
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: only to say that I deeply do not believe it's

830
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: arrogant to search within yourself, to seek the truth inside yourself,

831
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: to know yourself well enough that you are so clear,

832
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: so aware, as you put it, about who you are

833
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: and how you've come to be, that you look at yourself,

834
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, looking looking yourself in the eye rather than

835
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: turning your back on yourself, means that that the decisions

836
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: you will make and then the way you move in

837
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: the world will be done so with honor and integrity.

838
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: And so, as a friend who loves you, I would

839
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: challenge this idea, this sort of you know, British tendency

840
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: of self deprecation that you have in space, which is

841
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: so fun, possibly know what you're talking about. You have

842
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: like you have the best sense of humor and it's

843
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 1: fun at the pub but in but in these deeper moments,

844
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: I would I would love for you to view that

845
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: quest and that willingness to examine yourself as something really

846
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: honorable rather than arrogant. Yeah. I think it's an incredibly

847
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 1: fat point. I think it's something I don't give myself enough.

848
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: I don't I don't treat myself with enough patience to

849
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: be able to think about it like that every now

850
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: and then. But that's what I'm here. I know, that'sespecially

851
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: what you're here for. You now, I know it's that's fair.

852
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: That's in a friend contract that we have. Yeah, now,

853
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: I know. I yeah, we should probably tell the people

854
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: because I realized we did this on our on our

855
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: Instagram live on on album released, but we haven't done

856
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: it on the podcast. And I'm sure there's all these

857
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: people being like, wow, these two really love each other.

858
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: Wonder how they got to be best friends. But yeah,

859
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 1: we met yesterday. You know it's fine. Um, so we've

860
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: been friends for over just over five years now, and

861
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: you know it's weird, right, And so it started really

862
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 1: because your first record made such waves in my friend group,

863
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: which most of my listeners know. Music is kind of

864
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: everything to you know me, and all of the all

865
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: of the pals, and I was just so jealous because

866
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: all the buds had been going to shows. You were

867
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,479
Speaker 1: doing shows in l A. And I had some friends

868
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: who saw you in New York, and you had met

869
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of my closest friends and everyone was becoming friends.

870
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: And I working in Chicago and I had missed like

871
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: three shows and was just pissed about it. I was like,

872
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: if I missed one more, Jack Garret, so I swear

873
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: to God, and uh, I was coming home for a

874
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: weekend and or maybe no, it was my hiatus. I

875
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: was home over this summer. That's what it was. You

876
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: were playing a show at the Troubador and Aaron and

877
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: Lauren and Kenny said, come with us, We're gonna go

878
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: see Jack Garrett. And I was like, thank God, we

879
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,479
Speaker 1: came to your show. And it was the most sort

880
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 1: of transcendent, insane experience I'd had as an audience member

881
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: in a long time. And we all hung out afterwards

882
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: and and I said this on our Lives. The vibe

883
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: was just yeah, like it kind of felt like we'd

884
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: all known each other forever. And also you were so

885
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: adored by by some of my best friends. So like,

886
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: my joke is always like, oh, you've been pre screened,

887
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: like you're I know you're cold. So and I decided

888
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: we were going to go on a friend date the

889
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: next day and we went to lunch at Grassias Madre.

890
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: Uh have good Mexican food in California. I didn't tell

891
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: you it was Vegan. Sorry about that. I totally forgotten

892
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: about that. I I just remember. I just remember not

893
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: having a choice in the matter. No, we were just going.

894
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: I remember I remember not yet, not only not having

895
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: a choice in going and having breakfast with you, but

896
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: literally just being like, so where do we go? And

897
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, no, I know the perfect place to

898
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: worry about it. I'm like, no, I need to know

899
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: the name of it. You're like that here, just meet

900
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: me here, just meet me here. It's fun. It would

901
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: be great. And yeah, we just we had the best conversation.

902
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: That was so fun. And I remember thinking, my friends

903
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: are smart. They were right not so my hunch was right.

904
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: I love him. And you were talking in a very

905
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: funny manner. You were talking very much like two of

906
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 1: my best friends who lived in Chicago, who became your

907
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: close friends through our friendship. But my my friend Michael,

908
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: who's married to this badass woman named Lydia. And he

909
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: always used to say to people, Yeah, you think I'm cool,

910
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: but then you're going to meet my wife and just

911
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: love her more. Oh yeah, that's that's literally what I

912
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: say about my wife to every single person. I mean,

913
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: that's what you love to say about Sarah. And so

914
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: you were telling me, you were like, oh, well, you

915
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: know my girlfriend and I because she was your girlfriend

916
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: at the time, we're moving back to Chicago, and you know,

917
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 1: she's from from not too far from there, and she's

918
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: got this job and we're going to move back there

919
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: and and yeah, I mean we're friends, but you'll meet

920
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: Sarah and then you'll love her more than me and

921
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: you'll never talk to me again. And I was like,

922
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: I don't really think so. And and this is the

923
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 1: first time that we've spoken to each other's is then

924
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: So I was right, because you know, well, you know,

925
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: you can't be mad. I wasn't. I wasn't far. I

926
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: mean I spoke to you a little bit, you give

927
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: me you called me Steve. It was a very awkward situation.

928
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: So sorry, but I remember being so I just thought

929
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: it was so sweet that you spoke about Sarah the

930
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: way that Michael speaks about idea. And then I said

931
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: to you, I said, oh, where are you guys living

932
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: when you move to Chicago from London, when you moved

933
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: to America from another country, where are you going to live?

934
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 1: And you said, Uh, we're just gonna we don't really know,

935
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna probably just like look at some apartments online

936
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: and sign a lease. I was like, I'm sorry. I

937
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: didn't know to not do that until you said don't

938
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: do that. So technically it's I would say, it's your

939
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: fault for not having told me. Soon wonderful, I'm at

940
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: least I could rectify the thing that I did. So so,

941
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: dear listeners, and most of you know, I have not

942
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: a small amount of social anxiety around strangers. So you

943
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: have to understand how special check Carett is. Because I said,

944
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: you can't possibly do that. First of all, you need

945
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: to come to Chicago and see what neighborhood you want

946
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: to live in. And secondly, you need to come to

947
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: Chicago and also understand how neighborhoods work. No, and I said,

948
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 1: I I've just moved and I have this apartment and

949
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: I've got all this space. Why don't you guys come

950
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: and stay with me for a few weeks. When you

951
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: arrive and you can look around and see where you

952
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: want to go. You have to go see these buildings

953
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: in person. You can't sign a lease on the internet

954
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: from a foreign country. And as you've said many a time,

955
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: which honestly has been perfect, you said the very jack

956
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: thing which you say, which is I can possibly. No.

957
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to do that. I wouldn't want to

958
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to be I wouldn't want to be

959
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: a burden. I couldn't possibly, I said, But you could,

960
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: it would be fine. And and so then over the

961
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: next couple of weeks, every time we spoke, I was like, Hey,

962
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: how's it going. Oh, you know fine. We thought we

963
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: had an airbnb, but it fell through, and we thought

964
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: we were going to sign a lease, but but we

965
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: it turns out this is wrong with this building. And

966
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, Jack, I still have a guest room.

967
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: You and Sarah are more than we're going to come. No,

968
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: we could can possibly. No, I wouldn't How how could

969
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: how could I? How could I still look my mother

970
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: in the eye. That's not that's not the British thing

971
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: I could just so weird to me. I'm like, hi,

972
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: because because I am such an Italian grandmother or not

973
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: even mother, and I'm like, come all over, let me

974
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: cook for you. Are you hungry? I know I fed

975
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,439
Speaker 1: you an hour ago, but are you hungry again? Now?

976
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: You know I like to host. You know, but you

977
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: you understand how ridiculous this is though, right? I know.

978
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: I know we've told this story a couple of times,

979
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: and I know that I always joke literally in the

980
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: same bit. I think I put the same jock every

981
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: single time when you're telling this story, which is you

982
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: understand how ridiculous that is, right, But but also and

983
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: to take it seriously for a second, you understand how

984
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: ridiculous that is. Right. We were strangers. We were strangers. Yeah,

985
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: But no, I can't explain it because again I don't

986
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 1: like that many people. I really don't like. I love

987
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: it everybody, but I don't like everybody. You know what

988
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean? No, I know, and I get what. I

989
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 1: get what you're talking about because I have a similar thing,

990
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: and and the trust was there and I knew it

991
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: because you would you wouldn't drop it. And the thing,

992
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: the thing, the thing that I knew that made it like,

993
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 1: but but this is the thing is it's like I

994
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: didn't I remember telling error when I got home that

995
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: i'd like the a that i'd met you, be that

996
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: we'd had breakfast the next day and see that you

997
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: had invited us to stay with you and Chicago. And

998
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: it was Sarah who was just like, no, absolutely, not

999
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: that ridiculous. No that's not that's ridiculous. There is no

1000
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: way that we're going to stay with Sophia. But you

1001
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: kidn't know, Like she was very adamant that this is

1002
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: not the thing that was going to happen, and I

1003
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: was equally like, yes, of course that's not happening. We're

1004
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,240
Speaker 1: not mad people. But but the thing that was amazing

1005
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: is that you kept emailing me, you kept chasing up,

1006
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: you kept asking me like the places they're just use

1007
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: it if you need to, and the and the thing

1008
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: was there there was a point where I was very

1009
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: aware of the fact that we we didn't have a place,

1010
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: and that our tickets were booked. We were supposed to

1011
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: move to Chicago on X day. But here's the thing

1012
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 1: is that we weren't supposed to Sarah, my my girlfriend

1013
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: at the time was supposed to I was going to

1014
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: be on tour. So we spent we spent about two

1015
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: weeks packing up all of our crap and putting it

1016
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 1: into boxes and shipping it to Chicago, having no idea

1017
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: where it was going to go. It was just going

1018
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: to be hell didn't like a in storage for a bit.

1019
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: But Sarah was going to get on a plane and

1020
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: go to Chicago and she needed someone to stay, and

1021
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: we didn't have anywhere to go. And I remember I

1022
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 1: remember sending you an email being like, hey, but so

1023
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: how serious were you about that? I felt so vindicated

1024
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: because you know, we talked about it, and I remember

1025
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: I followed up with you three times. There's like, again,

1026
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: my family, as I mentioned, like you know, my mother's

1027
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: side where this big Italian family, and then so much

1028
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,399
Speaker 1: of the rest of my family is Jewish. And there's

1029
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: this adage that when you want to convert to Judaism,

1030
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: you go to the temple and you knock, and the

1031
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: rabbi turns you away three times because he wants you

1032
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: to be serious, you know, like really you have to

1033
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: be committed. And so I was like, I'm going to

1034
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: follow up with you many times just to let you

1035
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: know that I'm here and I mean it and I

1036
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: can't believe that works and uh and then I get

1037
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: and then you go, hey, so um possibly click. I

1038
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: to the point, dear listeners, Jack was on tour. So

1039
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: sweet Sarah, who I had never met but had I

1040
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: had been promised was the best person on the planet,

1041
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: showed up with deffl bags at my apartment from London

1042
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: and was like, hey, girl, I have I have the email.

1043
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: I have the I have the email. I have the

1044
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: email where I introduced the two of you. Ont July

1045
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen is the day that I introduced

1046
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,399
Speaker 1: introduced the two of you. And it's literally just like yeah,

1047
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 1: it's just exactly what it is. Because that's the thing is.

1048
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: I was like, cool, um, so I'm going to hand

1049
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: this over to you guys now because I have to

1050
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: go on tour for the next three months. Like that's

1051
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: that's what happened. I can't believe I did that to

1052
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: the both of you. But this email, this email is

1053
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: literally like Sarah, this is Sophia. She is so very

1054
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 1: kindly offered you a place to rest your weary head.

1055
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: Come the date that we were moving. Sophia, this is

1056
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: Sarah the love of my life and one of the

1057
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: many reasons I'm moving to Chicago. And then yes, Sofa

1058
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 1: has already explained, we had some issues finding a play

1059
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: sad faced, had landlords and flatmates fall through and not

1060
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: keep their word. Thank you so much for opening your

1061
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: home to Sarah and I as we are trying to

1062
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: find our footing. I'll leave the rest of you too,

1063
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: And literally every single so every email that follows are

1064
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: small novellas written by Sarah and then you in return.

1065
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: It's just like paragraphs and paragraphs of the of Sarah

1066
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: being like, you, Angel, I can't believe you're doing this

1067
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: for us. This is absolutely unbl like thank you, thank you,

1068
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: thank you, and then you're being like, oh, don't be silly,

1069
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: it's fine, you'll be either ever, don't worry about it.

1070
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: Well and honestly, it's truly one of the greatest gifts

1071
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: that you gave to either of us, because your wife

1072
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: is one of my best friends on the planet. We

1073
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: were we were so immediately attached to the hip. We

1074
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: binged so many Netflix shows together. We got on like

1075
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: a rotation of our favorite delivery. By the time you

1076
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: got home, we were like Tuesday night we get Indian food?

1077
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: Did it? And you were like hello, I was like,

1078
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: I'm literally here for seventy two hours and I have

1079
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: to leave again. I don't know what. I don't know

1080
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: what day it is, let alone food. Honestly, it was

1081
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: such a fun I don't know what like five months

1082
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: maybe I know it might have been all in all,

1083
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: but I think it was less. I think it was

1084
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: like it might have been like three months, and we

1085
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: started to get some places. I think we moved. We

1086
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: moved into that into that apartment, um yeah, in Greek

1087
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: Town pretty quickly afterwards. That was a really incredible time

1088
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: in my life. Like, honestly, for both Sarah and me,

1089
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: that was such a it defines such a beautiful moment

1090
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: not only in our relationship but only but also just

1091
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,439
Speaker 1: the ages that we were. What was that five years ago?

1092
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: So I was I was twenty um yeah, and and

1093
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: like moving to Chicago on a whim in the middle

1094
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: of an album campaign, like touring around the world. I

1095
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: literally I think I I mean I could find it out,

1096
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,959
Speaker 1: but I think I came to Chicago after the first

1097
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: US like two weeks. Sarah was was with you, um

1098
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: and even then I came on a Friday and I

1099
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: had to leave on a Sunday, like I was in

1100
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 1: and out, and you took such good care of us,

1101
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: And honestly, forever, forever indebted to the kindness that you

1102
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,479
Speaker 1: showed us at that time, because it was so so

1103
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: defining for us, like that neighborhood in Chicago, living in

1104
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: America at that time. Everything about it I look back

1105
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 1: on it was such funness. Um you know it was.

1106
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: It was a time when I really started to shape

1107
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: who I've ended up becoming and who I am continuing

1108
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: to become as a as an adult man. And I

1109
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: and I that's, you know, in part of that to

1110
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 1: to your friendship and to finding you and that crew

1111
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: of people in l A who I miss dearly right

1112
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: now but still talk to all the time and see

1113
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: every single time I'm back over there. Like I don't know,

1114
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: I I have found I have found friendships really hard

1115
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: to navigate in my life, really really hard. I either

1116
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: put too much trust or not enough into people who

1117
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: are either not willing to accept at it or willing

1118
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: to accept it, and I just can't read it very well.

1119
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: And and the thing that the thing I find so

1120
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: baffling about being introduced to the group of to the

1121
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: group of friends that I now have both in you know,

1122
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: in America and in the UK and Europe and all

1123
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: around the world. Is I have finally started to believe

1124
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: that that they like me. And I know we talk

1125
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: about this a lot, but like the level of imposter

1126
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: syndrome that I have felt my entire life with all

1127
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: of the friends that I've had, with the career that

1128
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: I have, with the way that I feel about myself,

1129
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 1: just the the constant whisper that seems to sit in

1130
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 1: the back of my mind that just says everything is

1131
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: better than you and you shouldn't be here, Like the

1132
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: constantly whispering that sort of mantra to me is obviously

1133
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: detrimental to my mental health into the way that I

1134
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: feel about myself. But it's taken me five years and

1135
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: I can officially believe it when I say that, like

1136
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: we're friends, that you know that Sarah loves me, the

1137
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: that my I'm trying to think of, Like you know,

1138
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: the people I've heard in the past, not only will

1139
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: they not hate me forever, but they probably forgot the

1140
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: thing that I am still obsessing over now. They probably

1141
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: forgot about it two days after it happened, Like I just, yeah,

1142
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: I'm incredibly thankful for that time. I'm incredibly thankful for

1143
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: the things that have happened to me. Since it's weird

1144
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: being an adult. Yeah, being an adult is weird, and

1145
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: it's kind of cyclically weird, right. You you learn a lesson,

1146
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: you have a growth spurred, and then the next one

1147
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 1: starts and you're like, God, this is because because because

1148
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: the lessons that you learn, they get hidden in new experiences.

1149
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: That's the problem. Like, that's the thing that I find

1150
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: so hard to pinpoint is like I learned pretty big

1151
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: lesson a few years ago with a with a really

1152
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: good friend of mine who I was working very closely with,

1153
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: and and through a story that I don't enjoy telling

1154
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: because I don't enjoy reliving it. I I lost a

1155
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 1: friend of mine because I was betrayed by them. And

1156
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: it's now and it stayed with me so so prominently

1157
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 1: that I just it created a sense of paranoia and

1158
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: me that I am just desperately looking to see it everywhere.

1159
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: And the time when I thought I had finally gotten

1160
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 1: through it and I've gotten through to the other side,

1161
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 1: I saw it starting to happen with a new friend,

1162
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: like just this weird little moment where I suddenly shot

1163
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 1: me back like four years because because the lessons the

1164
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: lesson I learned was was like specifically for that person

1165
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 1: in that time, and the lessons I'm going to learn

1166
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: in the future the same but different. It's the bucks.

1167
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,919
Speaker 1: We're back to the box. Like yeah, I, I I say

1168
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 1: on my show and the live show that I've been

1169
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: touring over the last few months. Obviously I'm not touring

1170
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 1: at the moment, but um that I also accidentally stole

1171
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: the title from you My My, My work in progress tool.

1172
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: I totally forgot. I remember you getting in touch being like,

1173
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: oh my god, you call it work in progress. That's

1174
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: so great. And I went, oh my god, I'm the

1175
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: worst friend of the world. How could I not have

1176
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: realized that you have a podcast that's titled the same thing.

1177
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: But no, I went on a tour that I called

1178
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: that I called a work in progress tour, the whole

1179
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: point of it being I was playing these songs before

1180
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: they were going to be released like months later, and

1181
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: and I said this every night that the thing I've

1182
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: learned about my emotional journey is it is cyclical. There

1183
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: are lessons I've learned in the past that I will

1184
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: learn again in the future because I'm going to continue

1185
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: to grow and I'm going to continue to need reminders

1186
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: of just how to behave as a human. I'm going

1187
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: to keep needing to check in with myself. And that's

1188
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: you know that I'm speaking with self awareness again. I'm

1189
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: doing the same thing. It's it's yeah, it's healthy, and

1190
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 1: it's good in it's healthy and it's good within reason. Well,

1191
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: when we think back on lessons, there's one thing that

1192
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 1: really stands out to me and I I just find

1193
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 1: it so interesting because again, what we perceive from the

1194
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 1: outside is so often not what's happening on the inside.

1195
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: And not that long after we became roommates, um in

1196
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: inten you had a really crazy year. You know your

1197
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: you you won this insane award, it's the Britts Critics

1198
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: Choice Prize, and you won the BBC sounds of these

1199
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: were these were Yeah, that pretty? That pretty? Can you

1200
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: explain to the audience what those are so that we

1201
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 1: can then talk about how they felt to put it,

1202
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: to put it into a context that is really that

1203
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: is way simple to understand. So the Brits Critics Choice

1204
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: Award the BBC Sound Pole are two accolades that are

1205
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: handed out to they're handed out to a new artist,

1206
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: musician who's um starting to you know, do things. In

1207
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: the history of those two is what so I can

1208
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 1: I can put it like this, This explains it probably

1209
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: in the best and clearest and the most concise way.

1210
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 1: In the history of those two awards being handed out,

1211
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: there are only I think four artists who have won

1212
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: both of them in the same year. Um Adele won

1213
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 1: both of them in the same year. Sam Smith won

1214
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: both of them in the same year, Ellie Golding won

1215
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: both of them in the same year, and I won

1216
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 1: both of them in the same year. Um. That puts yeah,

1217
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it puts into context the relevance of those awards.

1218
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 1: When you say those four names and side by side

1219
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: it a sorry, four names, three names side by side.

1220
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: It also puts into context where I sit amongst that,

1221
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: um and what that possibly could have led me to

1222
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: think about myself in yeah, as as of yeah, as

1223
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: I kind of tried to process what the fun was

1224
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, it was a weird, a weird. Yeah,

1225
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: it's you know, their awards. You don't explicitly ask for

1226
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: you kind of get handed them. And they're incredible awards

1227
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 1: that create a ridiculous kind of opportunity. They don't, you know,

1228
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: they don't come without problematic and systemic issues though, um

1229
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: and I yeah, yeah, And that's what I'm curious about,

1230
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 1: because to your point, when you win an award or

1231
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: awards like those, and and let's use a Dell for comparison,

1232
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,919
Speaker 1: everyone assumes like, oh, now your life is a racket ship.

1233
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: You're probably worth a ga jillion dollars and everything is different,

1234
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, I'm still trying to put out

1235
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: a record and figure out how to be an adult.

1236
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: And everything doesn't just get solved of it's complicated. There's

1237
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 1: there's then an amount immense amount of pressure. There's a

1238
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: lot of eyes on you. I'm curious rather than what

1239
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 1: people were assuming it felt like, I'm curious what it

1240
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: felt like. And and was that a time do you

1241
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: think that that perhaps the anxiety voice got louder? I mean,

1242
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 1: it definitely did get louder. It was it was inavoidable.

1243
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: I was so out of control of it as well.

1244
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't know how to see it coming,

1245
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 1: the voice. I mean, but it disguised itself in the

1246
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: voices of the other opinions about me that I was

1247
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: open to at the time, or that I was aware

1248
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: of at the time. Obviously, initially receiving those awards created

1249
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: such an immeasurable elation in my mood, like these these

1250
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 1: career defining things. Um, I was aware that, you know,

1251
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: it didn't mean it could start. It didn't mean I

1252
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: could start taking my foot off the gas. It mean

1253
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: I started, I would have to put it down harder.

1254
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: I'd have to work harder to really prove myself as

1255
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 1: being worthy of these awards, because that's the other thing

1256
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: as well as those two awards are handed out to

1257
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: artists to be eligible for the Brits Critics Choice. For example,

1258
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: at that time, I wasn't allowed to have released an album,

1259
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,839
Speaker 1: so I I you know, And that's my biggest disagree

1260
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: with it. Disagreement with it at the time was that

1261
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: it was an award that was awarding It was awarding

1262
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:33,879
Speaker 1: potential rather than actually awarding anything, which I found very conflicting,

1263
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 1: very confusing at the time, but you know, still incredibly

1264
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: thankful for it. Still had to go on TV and

1265
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: accept the thing, and and and be very thankful for it,

1266
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 1: but I did have questions and issues, and I did

1267
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: not have at the time a immediate support structure in

1268
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 1: place to help support my my issues and and and

1269
01:08:54,760 --> 01:09:00,719
Speaker 1: my my questions. I didn't. I had a port team

1270
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,560
Speaker 1: of people, but they were being kept at bay by

1271
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: the person I referenced earlier, someone who was very close

1272
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: to me, who who I ended up I ended up

1273
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 1: feeling very portrayed, betrayed by the awards were presented as

1274
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: exactly what you said, the shore fire things, you know,

1275
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: put them into contact with everyone else, especially at a

1276
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: time when I was I was making music that people

1277
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:25,920
Speaker 1: were finding hard to pigeonhole. So I ended up becoming

1278
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: the artist who was hard to pigeonhole. But you know,

1279
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 1: rather than rather that, than than being you know, than

1280
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: being miss genre as like an artist that I was,

1281
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: and I liked that. It was a challenge to kind

1282
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: of explain the music that I made because on one

1283
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: hand it was put but on the other hand it

1284
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: was you know, alternative R and B. But on the

1285
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:47,520
Speaker 1: other hand it was you know, bedroom producing music or um.

1286
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 1: But then you know, there's an unavoidable songwriter sing, a

1287
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: songwriter stringthen that bow I I don't know. I liked

1288
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: watching people struggle to figure out what I was doing.

1289
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: And then these awards came along and suddenly that was it.

1290
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 1: I was the guy who won these awards, you know.

1291
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 1: And the reason why I think me winning those awards

1292
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: at that time is so fascinating is because the industry,

1293
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:11,520
Speaker 1: especially in the UK at that time, was in disarray.

1294
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 1: That the music industry was was was was so was

1295
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: so on the back foot about what was happening with

1296
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: streaming and what was happening with Spotify. It was it

1297
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,680
Speaker 1: was not thinking about the future of music. It was

1298
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 1: it was trying to from what I experienced of it

1299
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: and from what I could see, it was trying to

1300
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 1: solidify like it's future as a business rather than the

1301
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 1: future of it as like a creative thing. It me

1302
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 1: being at that time a symbol of the future of

1303
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: the of the sound of music. No, that's not what

1304
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 1: like the industry as a whole was concerned about it. It

1305
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,759
Speaker 1: It was concerned about keeping and keeping the business afloat.

1306
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: So I don't know. And then on top of that,

1307
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,799
Speaker 1: added to the fact that I was just making music

1308
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: that that wasn't the sound of two thousands sixteen, like

1309
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 1: there weren't people making the kinds of music that I

1310
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: was making. I don't think, um uh not not to then, yeah,

1311
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 1: not to imply that my music was better or worse,

1312
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 1: it was just different. I don't know, I just kind

1313
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: of I still have these questions today. The one thing

1314
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: that I've really learned, the one thing I've really kind

1315
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: of come to accept, is is the questions are okay,

1316
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:21,040
Speaker 1: and I might have them forever. I don't think I'm

1317
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: going to get answers for them. I don't think anyone

1318
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,639
Speaker 1: has the answers for them. I think, yeah, I mean,

1319
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: I think that that's fair. I think that getting comfortable

1320
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: with certain questions is fair. And I also think for

1321
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 1: so many of us, when you have these run ins

1322
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,880
Speaker 1: occasionally with these big moments of success, when you're young

1323
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 1: and perhaps not fully ready, sometimes something gets in the way.

1324
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes the conversation around streaming gets in the way. Sometimes,

1325
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 1: you know, I I signed this great, big production deal

1326
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 1: and then the studio that I was supposed to be

1327
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 1: producing with went into a merger and they were like

1328
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: number crunching and firing executives for nine months while I

1329
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 1: was developing content. And I've managed to actually develop a

1330
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff. I really love that. I don't think

1331
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 1: I was actually ready to take out yet I made.

1332
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 1: I made something that I really care about. But I

1333
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:28,680
Speaker 1: I was trying to I was trying to maintain a

1334
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 1: pace I was used to which actually wasn't good for me.

1335
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: And I needed to slow down. And I think that

1336
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 1: whether it's your experience with the streaming timing or my

1337
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: experience with the timing of a corporate merger or whatever,

1338
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: sometimes something forces you to slow down so you can

1339
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: look in. And I think for a lot of us

1340
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: who are used to overachieving and who are kind of

1341
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 1: obsessed with doing a lot, we have to be forced

1342
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:59,759
Speaker 1: to slow down. Sure, And and I don't know, maybe

1343
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: that's you trying to put purpose on something where it

1344
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. But I also am a pretty big believer

1345
01:13:05,160 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 1: in the fact that purposes around and I think that

1346
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 1: I think that there are these big indicators, you know.

1347
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: I it's funny to like, do prep work for an

1348
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: interview is one of your best friends, but I was.

1349
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:20,879
Speaker 1: I was really like, I was so struck by Around

1350
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: that time, you told the BBC that when you put

1351
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: your first album out you stopped dancing in public, that

1352
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 1: it something happened and you stopped feeling comfortable in your body.

1353
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: And I think about that if I may as like

1354
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: almost a sign or an indicator that that there was

1355
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: something that you needed to look at or or process

1356
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: for yourself, or some space that you required. And I

1357
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,520
Speaker 1: don't know. Sometimes the way that we get space is frustrating,

1358
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:51,639
Speaker 1: but it matters so I whether it's whether it's talking

1359
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 1: about a realization like that, like how you've worked on

1360
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 1: that feeling, or it's talking about the fact that while

1361
01:13:57,439 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 1: you were in this really up and down time you

1362
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,040
Speaker 1: you record, did a whole album and then decided to

1363
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:05,560
Speaker 1: scrap it, like there there were things that were happening

1364
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 1: that you were working to understand. And I wonder when

1365
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: you when you think about that recording and throwing an

1366
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 1: album away, feeling disjointed with your own or disconnected to

1367
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 1: your own body, how do you think about that? Now

1368
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 1: you know what kind of a break did you need? What?

1369
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 1: What do you understand about the lesson? Maybe in the

1370
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:32,719
Speaker 1: timing in hindsight, h in hindsight, sorry, excuse me, in hindsight.

1371
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 1: The the issue that I had with with with something

1372
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 1: slowing me down at that early in my career, like

1373
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: for example, specifically those those awards. Is I was just

1374
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: getting started, like and I think that's that's the thing

1375
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: that can that's that's the thing that I think confused

1376
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:51,280
Speaker 1: me the most is I was just getting started and

1377
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:54,640
Speaker 1: I was just about to really do something, like to

1378
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:58,639
Speaker 1: grow in a way the I don't know, it's it's

1379
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: it's it's it dangerous to go back and think of

1380
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: it hypothetically simply because that timeline doesn't exist for me,

1381
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, and to think about it in a way

1382
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 1: in that goes to the question that goes back to

1383
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 1: the question you're proposing, is it's led me to a

1384
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 1: version of myself that I feel way more assured about.

1385
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know who I would have been

1386
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: if I had been unchallenged. Then, not that I would

1387
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 1: have been completely unchallenged, because you know, um, but you know,

1388
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,519
Speaker 1: music journalists and critics exist and they're there to challenge work.

1389
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,600
Speaker 1: That's the you know, it's a huge part of what

1390
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: they do and it's a hugely important part of of

1391
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 1: the music that gets made and released. But I was

1392
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: I was challenged by exactly what you're saying, like some

1393
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 1: sort of I don't know, like some sort of faithfulness

1394
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:50,960
Speaker 1: and it and it really hurt, and it really confused me,

1395
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:57,640
Speaker 1: and it it really destroyed my It destroyed any semblance

1396
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,360
Speaker 1: of confidence I had in myself. And I was very confident.

1397
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 1: I am a very confident person. I think I enjoy

1398
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 1: being a confident person. It means that when I really

1399
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 1: love something that I've done, I really love it and

1400
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 1: and that's such an amazing feeling to have as a

1401
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:17,639
Speaker 1: as as someone who creates music from silence, is to

1402
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:19,839
Speaker 1: sit back and look at the space that you filled

1403
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 1: and to go that's worth being there like that. Truly,

1404
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 1: that song is brilliant. And I think the thing that

1405
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:31,200
Speaker 1: the thing that I've been able to really the thing

1406
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 1: I've been able to admire about myself, is that I'm

1407
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 1: learning to engage with that part of myself more and

1408
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 1: making this record. Making this record was so fucking hard

1409
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:46,639
Speaker 1: because I started it with no confidence. I started making

1410
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 1: this record with zero confidence. I was just bleeding songs

1411
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,479
Speaker 1: and that was really hard to do because it meant

1412
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: every song that I made I thought was crap. By

1413
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: that point, I've already written those eight songs that I trashed,

1414
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, I'd already written the bulk of an album.

1415
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 1: This would have been two years ago I had I

1416
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:07,440
Speaker 1: had about eight songs and they were just they would garbage.

1417
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 1: I did not like them, and I and and I go,

1418
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 1: I go back to them now one of no I know,

1419
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:17,759
Speaker 1: but because because so I've and I've ended up actually

1420
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: using some of them on the album, but in different forms.

1421
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:23,599
Speaker 1: So like there's lots of outros or middle eight or

1422
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 1: verse ideas from those songs that ended up getting making

1423
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:31,920
Speaker 1: their way onto the record. For example, mender Heart, which

1424
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: is a song that that I just put out, that

1425
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: came out on Volume two of of Love, Death and Dancing.

1426
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,519
Speaker 1: The outro of mender Heart was from a song that

1427
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:45,160
Speaker 1: I scrapped and I needed an outro for that song,

1428
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 1: and my brain went literally just copy and paste that

1429
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:51,280
Speaker 1: from from that place and it might work. And I

1430
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 1: copied and pasted it and had to do some like

1431
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 1: magic edit bits and it just worked perfectly. And I

1432
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:57,760
Speaker 1: built on top of that. So I so I know that,

1433
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 1: like I know that there is cyclical versions of myself

1434
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 1: in the future in the past that are constantly aiding

1435
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 1: the creativity of what I'm doing now, you know, Like

1436
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 1: there's there's melodies I've written that I wrote for songs

1437
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,320
Speaker 1: that I haven't finished because they weren't for that song.

1438
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 1: There for another song instead, there's there's songs I've not

1439
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 1: written yet. The melodies I'm writing now are going to

1440
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:25,240
Speaker 1: be suited for you know. I in the in the

1441
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:31,120
Speaker 1: interim between phase and love, death and dancing, I I

1442
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: disassembled myself because I needed to see what was what

1443
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 1: what felt broken. Something was broken, and I needed to

1444
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: go in and see what it was. And and and

1445
01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 1: in disassembling myself there wasn't an obvious crack anywhere. There

1446
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 1: were just old, weary parts. And that's what made me

1447
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 1: was just like tiredness and and luggishness and and and

1448
01:18:55,120 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: and and and and a an unwillingness to to work

1449
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:07,880
Speaker 1: cohesively as like a finely tuned mechanism. And when I

1450
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 1: put myself back together, rather than so like to disassemble

1451
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 1: myself and see that nothing was broken, instead of just

1452
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 1: that's just what I was like. Yeah, I could I

1453
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: shine some stuff and an oiled pieces and sure, but

1454
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: when I put myself together again, that there's no there

1455
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 1: was no certification, There was no reason to believe that

1456
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 1: putting myself back together again was going to mean that

1457
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:34,720
Speaker 1: I would then work fine. And what I ended up

1458
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 1: doing is I was building myself back up by going

1459
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:40,200
Speaker 1: to therapy, by learning to talk to myself better, by

1460
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: doing by by doing research into my actual like mental health.

1461
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 1: That's why I thought I was building myself up together.

1462
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: What I was actually doing was breaking the parts, you know,

1463
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 1: like I disassembled this version of myself. Thought I was

1464
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:54,600
Speaker 1: putting it back together again, but actually I was just

1465
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 1: I was breaking the parts that were in front of me.

1466
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 1: And that's that's when I that's when I wrote those songs.

1467
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 1: That that was me attempting to build myself up again,

1468
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, and and this and these songs that may

1469
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,760
Speaker 1: get released at some point if I am able to

1470
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,639
Speaker 1: turn them into things I'm proud of, but like they

1471
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 1: represent me trying so desperately to be someone I wasn't,

1472
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 1: which is someone who I was when I made Phase,

1473
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,880
Speaker 1: and I was I was young, and I was naive,

1474
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 1: and I could afford to make the mistakes that I made.

1475
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:28,479
Speaker 1: I don't know why in this interim period, I was

1476
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:30,840
Speaker 1: so desperate to go back to that version of myself

1477
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 1: because it was the only certain version of myself that

1478
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 1: I could see. Because I couldn't see who I am

1479
01:20:36,960 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: now yet, you know, and who I am now is

1480
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: is way stronger because who I am now is able

1481
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 1: to put my hand up and say I'm full of

1482
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 1: broken pieces, you know. And that's what I'm writing about.

1483
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 1: That's what I want to write about. That's the person

1484
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:53,400
Speaker 1: I want to be. I want to admit to that,

1485
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: and I want to know that those pieces are there.

1486
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to try and fix them unless they

1487
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 1: need fixing. I also don't expect myself to be able

1488
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 1: to live with them forever right well. And and that's

1489
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 1: one of the things that excites me about, you know,

1490
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,720
Speaker 1: the version of this conversation that we had on that

1491
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:13,479
Speaker 1: Live a few weeks ago, that so many people reached

1492
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: out and said, you know, thank you guys for talking

1493
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 1: about mental health in the way that you did, and

1494
01:21:18,280 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 1: and the conversations we have offline a lot which which

1495
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:28,639
Speaker 1: thematically in my mind right now, I'm realizing, really, especially

1496
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:31,679
Speaker 1: in the last year, center so much on that idea

1497
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 1: of simultaneous truths. How you can be at once hype

1498
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 1: or self critical and also confident, how you can understand

1499
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 1: that you're an artist and also question whether you make

1500
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 1: anything of merit, how how to your earlier point, There

1501
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:52,720
Speaker 1: can be all of these unanswered questions that might actually

1502
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 1: be unanswerable, and perhaps the exploration and the artistry come

1503
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:04,479
Speaker 1: from pondering them and seeing what answers come up day

1504
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:08,280
Speaker 1: by day, but understanding that those questions will always be there.

1505
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 1: Is Is there freedom in understanding that you don't solve

1506
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:16,519
Speaker 1: the puzzle of yourself? Yeah, that's that's a huge that

1507
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 1: that exact premise has been a huge part of my

1508
01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 1: emotional awaitening in in in learning that like I say

1509
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:27,559
Speaker 1: this a lot in interviews that I'm doing at the moment,

1510
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 1: because I like not that I talk in sound bites,

1511
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 1: but I just I just believe in the things that

1512
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 1: I'm saying at the moment. And one of the things

1513
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying a lot is I refuse to believe that

1514
01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:42,639
Speaker 1: my emotions are problems that need solving. No one's ever

1515
01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 1: no one's ever asked me to question my happiness. No

1516
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 1: one's ever asked me to to to ask myself or

1517
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 1: to challenge my my positive emotions, and yet I'm constantly

1518
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:55,320
Speaker 1: asked to do that about my my depression and my sadness.

1519
01:22:56,040 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 1: And my argument is funk that my emotions aren't problems

1520
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 1: that need fixing. I am who I am, and if

1521
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,560
Speaker 1: what I am is a is a mess of broken parts,

1522
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 1: surely in being able to see that that's what I

1523
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 1: could be is a step in the right direction of

1524
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: being able to accept that that's what I am, to

1525
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:19,200
Speaker 1: know that there's room for improvement, to not to not

1526
01:23:19,439 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 1: to not accept that as it as as okay cool,

1527
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:25,080
Speaker 1: and therefore the world should accept me. No, I think

1528
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 1: there are things about myself that need improvement. Of course

1529
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:33,400
Speaker 1: there are. I'm I'm you know, human perfection doesn't exist

1530
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 1: as as as much as I can't tell myself that

1531
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:41,800
Speaker 1: when I'm writing a song or producing a piece of music,

1532
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 1: it just doesn't and it never will. That the act

1533
01:23:45,240 --> 01:23:52,760
Speaker 1: of asking the question, am I okay? Is it? I know?

1534
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 1: It's it sounds so, it sounds so like abstract but

1535
01:23:56,040 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 1: but like but it's so it's so relevant to what

1536
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 1: to what this album is about, to what the language

1537
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:05,040
Speaker 1: around this album is about. We just announced this new

1538
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:08,599
Speaker 1: project that's up on my website called called A Call

1539
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:10,720
Speaker 1: and Response. It's this thing that my team and me

1540
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:14,080
Speaker 1: have been working on for months and we finally got

1541
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 1: it together. But what it is is a place on

1542
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 1: my website where anyone can go and um submit either

1543
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 1: a call into the ethera or respond to somebody else's call.

1544
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:27,240
Speaker 1: The premise of it, there's a little but there's a

1545
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 1: little biogue that goes with it that just explains about

1546
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:31,599
Speaker 1: how it's relevant to my album, and how it's relevant

1547
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 1: to love, death and dancing and the way I've been

1548
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 1: feeling and the emotional enlightenment that I feel like I've achieved.

1549
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:40,760
Speaker 1: But the premise of it is that the act of

1550
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 1: asking a question is in itself an act of self

1551
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 1: love to ask something that doesn't necessarily need an answer,

1552
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 1: but to know that it just needs asking in the

1553
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:51,320
Speaker 1: first place. The opening lyric of time, why is it

1554
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 1: not enough to be fine? I never answer that question.

1555
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 1: It's not there to be answered. It's just there to

1556
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:59,559
Speaker 1: be proposed, like why is it not enough to be fine?

1557
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:01,320
Speaker 1: I don't want you to answer that. I don't want

1558
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 1: myself to answer that. I just need to know I

1559
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:05,560
Speaker 1: can ask that question, because God, I think about it

1560
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 1: all the time. M hm. You know that that whole

1561
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 1: song is filled with those kinds of ideas and sentiments,

1562
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,840
Speaker 1: and one line that's you know, afraid to look inside yourself,

1563
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:17,640
Speaker 1: afraid you'll find that in our glass is just a

1564
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:21,160
Speaker 1: glass with sand inside. My favorite lyric on the album,

1565
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 1: and it doesn't need an answer. It proposes a thought.

1566
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 1: It doesn't want a response. It just needs to exist

1567
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,799
Speaker 1: and breathe. You can respond to it, that's the beautiful

1568
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 1: thing about it. It's an idea. You can respond to

1569
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,760
Speaker 1: it in any way that you want, but it's not

1570
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: asking you to do that. And I need to learn

1571
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:40,720
Speaker 1: to do that for myself. I need to learn to

1572
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,760
Speaker 1: not expect an answer from myself if I think I

1573
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: am a difficult question at times. M hmm. How do

1574
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:54,200
Speaker 1: you think you've Because there's something as both a fan

1575
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:57,760
Speaker 1: of your music and as your friend, there's something so

1576
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 1: beautiful about witnessing where you are in this period and

1577
01:26:02,360 --> 01:26:06,360
Speaker 1: also what you're making. And it isn't lost on me

1578
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:11,440
Speaker 1: that there was a time where you didn't feel comfortable

1579
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 1: in your body and and in the larger context of

1580
01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 1: mental health, maybe in your brain. And here we are

1581
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 1: celebrating your new record, which is actually titled Love, Death

1582
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 1: and Dancing, and you put out this beautiful series of videos.

1583
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 1: It's a it's a partially it's partially a visual album

1584
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 1: and it's you dancing. You you quite literally have gotten

1585
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 1: back in your body. How How did you know you

1586
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:47,640
Speaker 1: were ready to kind of come home to yourself? Why? Why?

1587
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: Why the series of videos that sent her around dance?

1588
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: I I didn't. I didn't know. I didn't know that.

1589
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 1: There wasn't ever a point where it was like, cool,

1590
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm ready, let's go dancing. There was just a point

1591
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 1: where I knew that it was going to be an

1592
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:10,600
Speaker 1: important part of the message. Like I knew roughly what

1593
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:12,680
Speaker 1: I wanted the album to be cool, I knew what

1594
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:14,559
Speaker 1: it was about. I also just knew how it made

1595
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:17,559
Speaker 1: me feel like these songs make me want to move

1596
01:27:17,600 --> 01:27:22,320
Speaker 1: in ways that I haven't moved before. And the dancing

1597
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 1: came from the video concept. The video concept was this.

1598
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:27,760
Speaker 1: It was, you know, what was widely regarded as a

1599
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,599
Speaker 1: bad idea, but it was an idea that I had,

1600
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,880
Speaker 1: which was I'm gonna be in front of a camera

1601
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 1: and I'm going to dance for every single song. That's

1602
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:42,840
Speaker 1: how it started. And I and I got I. I.

1603
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:48,280
Speaker 1: I coaxed my friend Tom Clarkson, who's an incredible writer

1604
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:50,599
Speaker 1: and the director, someone I've worked with a lot um

1605
01:27:50,640 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 1: someone you've hung out with in Chicago before when he

1606
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 1: came to visit us big love that man, I uh yeah,

1607
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:02,680
Speaker 1: I heard him into helping me do it um and

1608
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,840
Speaker 1: he did so. And the first the first questions and

1609
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 1: the questions that we kept asking ourselves were, Okay, why

1610
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,000
Speaker 1: again me being a stickler for needing to know that

1611
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 1: the details means something? Why why dancing? Why just me?

1612
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: Like a big One of the first big arguments we

1613
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:22,479
Speaker 1: had actually over the creative of it was he wanted

1614
01:28:22,520 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 1: more people on camera and I refused. I was like, no,

1615
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,160
Speaker 1: this has to be me. This has to just be me.

1616
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:30,679
Speaker 1: And it's not because I want to prove it to myself,

1617
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 1: but it's because that's what this whole album is about. This.

1618
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,639
Speaker 1: This album is about me. It's not about anyone else.

1619
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:39,400
Speaker 1: I I have not written this for anyone else. I've

1620
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 1: written this purely for myself. You Know. The SoundBite I

1621
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:45,280
Speaker 1: have about that is I've satisfied a hundred percent of

1622
01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:48,040
Speaker 1: my target audience with this album because it's me. I

1623
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 1: love this album and and I want to show that

1624
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 1: in everything that I do. I don't want there to

1625
01:28:54,040 --> 01:28:56,240
Speaker 1: be another face on this, not because I want to

1626
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:58,479
Speaker 1: take all the spotlight but because this is to the

1627
01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:01,599
Speaker 1: best of my ability and accurate depiction of exactly who

1628
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:04,040
Speaker 1: I am and how I feel, there should not be

1629
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 1: anyone else's face on it, right, And when you've done

1630
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:11,040
Speaker 1: the hard work of going in and excavating and breaking

1631
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:17,879
Speaker 1: and putting back together, that that's a reclamation of self. Yeah, exactly.

1632
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:20,960
Speaker 1: It's not lost on me that you stopped dancing and

1633
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:25,120
Speaker 1: with this record and this clearer sensibility about who you are,

1634
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:27,760
Speaker 1: how your brain works, what your emotional life looks like,

1635
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 1: you've come back into your body, that you've begun to

1636
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:35,559
Speaker 1: dance again, that you've you've owned a space again. It's

1637
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 1: it's very metaphorical, but it's also quite literal. Yeah, and

1638
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 1: and done and done so in the video through through

1639
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:51,760
Speaker 1: a characterized version, caricaturised, caricaturized, sure version of myself, just

1640
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:54,800
Speaker 1: like yeah, like the the story of the video. Like, so,

1641
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 1: what we have is we we ended up. Out of

1642
01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:58,479
Speaker 1: the twelve songs on the album, we picked eight and

1643
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:02,040
Speaker 1: we've made we've videos for them. We filmed them all

1644
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:06,360
Speaker 1: in four days, which was not fun, but it was fun.

1645
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:12,280
Speaker 1: Um and each video is me moving and presenting the

1646
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:14,639
Speaker 1: song in a different way. Um. So They're all little

1647
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 1: vignettes that they stand on their own, but we're also

1648
01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:20,040
Speaker 1: releasing them one, releasing them as like a long form

1649
01:30:20,120 --> 01:30:22,679
Speaker 1: film where they can play one after the other. And

1650
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:24,880
Speaker 1: for those of you watching at home, you'll notice that

1651
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 1: the beginning shot and the last shot of each video

1652
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 1: is the respectively last shot and then beginning shot of

1653
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 1: the song before and after. And because because the story

1654
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 1: that I was trying to create is one that also

1655
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 1: has found its way into the album, which is just

1656
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:44,160
Speaker 1: my emotional journey. It's my story of the last few years.

1657
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:47,320
Speaker 1: It's it's you know. The The video is the story

1658
01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 1: about and an arrogant version of myself who is obsessed

1659
01:30:51,960 --> 01:30:55,600
Speaker 1: with performing to a camera. And the camera begins to

1660
01:30:56,920 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 1: the camera begins to sway, and it begins to move away,

1661
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 1: and it begins to get bored of its subject, which

1662
01:31:02,200 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: is me, and I, in a in a desperate bid

1663
01:31:05,320 --> 01:31:10,800
Speaker 1: to win back its favor, you know, thrust myself and

1664
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 1: throw my body around just to get it to look

1665
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 1: at me, and it does so begrudgingly. It doesn't want to.

1666
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:18,719
Speaker 1: But the film follows me as I begin to break

1667
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:20,800
Speaker 1: down the reasons why I want to do that. Who's

1668
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 1: behind the camera. Why am I so obsessed with performing

1669
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 1: to it? Is it me behind the camera and I

1670
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,519
Speaker 1: just obsessed about accepting myself? Why do I feel the

1671
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: need to be the only person in front of the

1672
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 1: camera on my own? And ultimately it leads to a

1673
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 1: moment in in the long film where I dance but

1674
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,439
Speaker 1: not for the camera, And that's the moment when the

1675
01:31:40,479 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: camera decides to want to see me again. Is because

1676
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm purely doing it for myself. But my favorite bit

1677
01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:50,240
Speaker 1: about the video is that it ends with me realizing

1678
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 1: that the camera's come back, and so I start to

1679
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 1: perform to it again, and and and we end the

1680
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:00,559
Speaker 1: film with the very first shot of the very first song,

1681
01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:03,360
Speaker 1: indicating that the whole thing is just cyclical in the

1682
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 1: way that we've been talking about. That this that realization

1683
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 1: I have for myself of like needing the camera, but

1684
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:11,559
Speaker 1: do I need the camera? Okay, I don't need the camera,

1685
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 1: but now the cameras following me again, so I might

1686
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 1: as well turn around and need the camera. But now

1687
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:17,599
Speaker 1: I need the camera, but do I need the cat?

1688
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:21,240
Speaker 1: Like that cyclical way of thinking. I wanted to represent

1689
01:32:21,320 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 1: that as best I could because it's something I've been

1690
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:26,240
Speaker 1: so obsessed about over the last few years, and it's

1691
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 1: something that so that's one of the core messages that

1692
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:33,000
Speaker 1: lives within every single song on this album. Me dancing

1693
01:32:33,040 --> 01:32:37,120
Speaker 1: in front of the camera was I mean, yeah, I

1694
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 1: wanted to prove for myself I could do it, because,

1695
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 1: like I said, when when things started going well for

1696
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: me in two thousand and sixteen, I lost my confidence

1697
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:46,320
Speaker 1: in a lot of what I did, and one of

1698
01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:48,160
Speaker 1: those things was dancing in public. And I used to

1699
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 1: love doing that. Me and my wife fell in love

1700
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 1: with each other because we would do dance off at

1701
01:32:52,160 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 1: three am at the not Inhll Arts Club. And I

1702
01:32:56,360 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 1: just stopped doing that one day, and that was the

1703
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,040
Speaker 1: saddest thing to see her not know why that was,

1704
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:04,479
Speaker 1: and for me to not really know why that was either,

1705
01:33:05,200 --> 01:33:07,519
Speaker 1: And it was just because I didn't love myself enough

1706
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:10,599
Speaker 1: to feel like I could do that. I still don't

1707
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 1: know if I'm there. I did it in front of

1708
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:15,040
Speaker 1: a camera because I had to, But I don't know.

1709
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:17,640
Speaker 1: We'll see. Just put on put on like I love you,

1710
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 1: and get me drunk enough and then we'll see what happens.

1711
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:23,720
Speaker 1: You know, I'm always down for the dance party, No,

1712
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: I know, but I get it. It's it is an

1713
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 1: interesting thing because hearing you talk about that, I can

1714
01:33:31,479 --> 01:33:36,400
Speaker 1: trace when I've been going through something uncomfortable and kind

1715
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:41,679
Speaker 1: of lost my will or or my ease in movement,

1716
01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 1: like where suddenly I don't feel like I I don't

1717
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 1: feel like my body is mine anymore. And and yeah,

1718
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:54,719
Speaker 1: I've noticed it. Get hypersensitive as well, like you notice

1719
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:56,559
Speaker 1: the difference and then suddenly you go, will hang on,

1720
01:33:56,600 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 1: why is that there? And it makes you hyper aware,

1721
01:33:58,520 --> 01:34:00,840
Speaker 1: hyper sensitive of it, which then numbs you two more.

1722
01:34:00,920 --> 01:34:05,080
Speaker 1: But it's so strange, it's such It is really interesting.

1723
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:12,519
Speaker 1: How because obviously there's there's an incredible amount of fodder

1724
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:17,519
Speaker 1: for art in exploration of self, in in really getting

1725
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:21,839
Speaker 1: responsible with you know, your mental health, in in looking

1726
01:34:22,840 --> 01:34:25,519
Speaker 1: yourself in the eye in these ways that I think

1727
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 1: so many of us need to do. How does technology

1728
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:33,120
Speaker 1: play a role in this stuff? For you? Because I

1729
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 1: think about how intensely tech has changed. I think about,

1730
01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, going back to the beginning of this conversation,

1731
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:43,320
Speaker 1: I was talking about how we can stay in touch,

1732
01:34:43,439 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 1: which we have through our whole friendship on on face time.

1733
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: You know, we can we can have this conversation into

1734
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:53,720
Speaker 1: different countries during a pandemic. Uh and and look at

1735
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 1: each other the whole time, which is so insane and cool.

1736
01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:00,719
Speaker 1: But I wonder, you know, I I know you made

1737
01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 1: phase on your MacBook using logic, and and now we're

1738
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:08,639
Speaker 1: getting to see these Instagram live shows and these Facebook

1739
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: lives shows that you're doing, and we get to be

1740
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:12,760
Speaker 1: in your studio with you, which has all the bells

1741
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 1: and whistles and gadgets. What what is what is the

1742
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 1: role of of technology and how it's changing? How how

1743
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:24,439
Speaker 1: is that working with your music and impacting what you're making.

1744
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:28,800
Speaker 1: I think, I like technology and music has always been

1745
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:35,400
Speaker 1: but I mean I'm always on I'm always on side

1746
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 1: with it. I think. I think like I taught myself

1747
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:41,240
Speaker 1: to produce music because I didn't know there was any

1748
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:43,080
Speaker 1: other way of doing it. So like I got I

1749
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:46,799
Speaker 1: remember getting my first laptop and trying to make songs

1750
01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 1: on it, not knowing that, not knowing that, Like I

1751
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 1: guess the done thing is that you would have a

1752
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:57,759
Speaker 1: producer that would do that in a more like classic

1753
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 1: way of making a record, for example, But I, as

1754
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:02,360
Speaker 1: you know, seventeen eighteen and just doing it in my

1755
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:10,920
Speaker 1: bedroom I I always I find technology to be such

1756
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:14,680
Speaker 1: a useful tool. I also am guilty of using it

1757
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:17,559
Speaker 1: as a crux a lot. Sorry, I'm guilty of using

1758
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,240
Speaker 1: it as a crutch a lot of the time. I

1759
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:21,479
Speaker 1: rest on it too much, and I and I and

1760
01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:24,360
Speaker 1: I rely on the same things over and over again

1761
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:26,800
Speaker 1: to kind of do the same thing over and over

1762
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:29,600
Speaker 1: and egg again. But the thing that it's enabled me

1763
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:31,360
Speaker 1: to be able to do is it's and the and

1764
01:36:31,360 --> 01:36:33,080
Speaker 1: the reason why I don't think I'll ever look back

1765
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:37,559
Speaker 1: and do this in any other way is I never

1766
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:44,920
Speaker 1: consciously made myself become the quote one person band, right.

1767
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:47,519
Speaker 1: I never I never sat down and when oh, this

1768
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:50,200
Speaker 1: is this is the right thing to do. I just

1769
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:52,280
Speaker 1: did it because I didn't know there was any other

1770
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:54,960
Speaker 1: way to do it. And the only way I was

1771
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,280
Speaker 1: able to do that is because I had the technology

1772
01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:00,439
Speaker 1: that enabled me the tools to be able to do that,

1773
01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 1: you know, making a song. And this goes back to

1774
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:03,880
Speaker 1: what we were saying at the beginning. With learning all

1775
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:08,760
Speaker 1: the different instruments that I that I can play it

1776
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:10,960
Speaker 1: it makes me be able to think about how to

1777
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:14,519
Speaker 1: arrange and produce a piece of music from the from

1778
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:18,680
Speaker 1: the point of view of the version of myself that

1779
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 1: plays the base, from the version of myself that plays

1780
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:23,680
Speaker 1: the keyboard, from the version of myself that plays the trombone.

1781
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:26,559
Speaker 1: You know, I'm able to think of music production from

1782
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:29,280
Speaker 1: those different points of view, and I can also sit

1783
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:32,240
Speaker 1: behind a laptop and an engineer and program something myself.

1784
01:37:32,680 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 1: I need it to be able to make the music

1785
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm currently making. You know, I need the laptop, and

1786
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:42,920
Speaker 1: I need the synthesizers I've got around me, and I

1787
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:44,640
Speaker 1: need all the plugins that I use. That's the thing

1788
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:46,360
Speaker 1: as well, is that, like I've got all these toys

1789
01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 1: in here, but half of the stuff I use is

1790
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:50,720
Speaker 1: in this laptop that I'm talking to you one right now,

1791
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:53,240
Speaker 1: Like half the instruments and and the and the and

1792
01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: the effects and everything it's in the box. Um. You know,

1793
01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:00,519
Speaker 1: depending on who you ask, that's blasphemous. Depending on who

1794
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:03,680
Speaker 1: else you ask, it's a godsend. I The only thing

1795
01:38:03,720 --> 01:38:06,800
Speaker 1: that I know, the only thing I know to be true, though,

1796
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 1: is what I need is something that creates speed. Speed

1797
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:14,760
Speaker 1: is so important. It's so important. I can't I can't

1798
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,240
Speaker 1: waste time plugging something in if I've got an idea. Now,

1799
01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:19,479
Speaker 1: I need to know that I can load something up,

1800
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:21,040
Speaker 1: whether it be a patch on a plug in or

1801
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:22,479
Speaker 1: just plug in a keyboard that I know is going

1802
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:24,080
Speaker 1: to give me the sound I need. I need to

1803
01:38:24,080 --> 01:38:25,960
Speaker 1: know I can do it quickly. While I'm still riding

1804
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:29,200
Speaker 1: the wave of that idea. I can't spend what I

1805
01:38:29,280 --> 01:38:31,439
Speaker 1: have found to be something that is detrimental to my

1806
01:38:31,479 --> 01:38:34,280
Speaker 1: creative process. When I'm in other studios, I can't spend

1807
01:38:34,280 --> 01:38:39,360
Speaker 1: twenty minutes to set something up because the idea has gone,

1808
01:38:39,360 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 1: the moment's gone. I can't hang on to something for

1809
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:43,559
Speaker 1: that long. So it's really important to me that I

1810
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:46,680
Speaker 1: have the technology available to be able to make the

1811
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:49,760
Speaker 1: music I make quickly and efficiently. That being said, I

1812
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 1: try not to rely on it too much. Like I said,

1813
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:53,679
Speaker 1: if i feel like I'm getting too dependent on something,

1814
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 1: I'll switch everything up and and and do something completely different.

1815
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:58,800
Speaker 1: Like I've got. I've got two setups running at the

1816
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:01,280
Speaker 1: moment in my studio. I've got my like songwriting setup,

1817
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 1: which is, you know, my laptop with my with all

1818
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:07,360
Speaker 1: my plugins, and I've got this very elaborate io system

1819
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:09,920
Speaker 1: that enables me to be able to play any since

1820
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:12,680
Speaker 1: that I can currently see at any point depending on

1821
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:15,479
Speaker 1: whether I've got it armed or not. You know, that's

1822
01:39:15,520 --> 01:39:18,759
Speaker 1: great for creating stuff and making songs. I've also got

1823
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:21,320
Speaker 1: to the side on a table I'm looking at over there,

1824
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:24,400
Speaker 1: um an analog system, something that's not plugged into a computer.

1825
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 1: I've just got a few sense and a sequence is

1826
01:39:26,280 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 1: set up that I have to program manually myself. Completely

1827
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:32,479
Speaker 1: different ways of looking at and making music. Not something

1828
01:39:32,520 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 1: I have ever done before in my life. I've just

1829
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 1: you know, I've I've got a couple of sense that

1830
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:39,559
Speaker 1: allowed me to do stuff like that. I'm a bit

1831
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:41,479
Speaker 1: of a sponge when it comes to music, and I

1832
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:44,719
Speaker 1: learned very quickly, and luckily I'm still doing that even

1833
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 1: is um getting older. I haven't kind of lost that

1834
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:50,240
Speaker 1: that that ability yet, so I'm still just trying to

1835
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:52,639
Speaker 1: rely on that. But the beautiful thing about technology and

1836
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:55,080
Speaker 1: the age that we're living in is we have we

1837
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:59,680
Speaker 1: have decades of technology that the acts as are predecessor

1838
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:01,720
Speaker 1: to us. So what I'm really enjoying doing at the

1839
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:04,639
Speaker 1: moment is finding technology that was used thirty years ago.

1840
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:09,240
Speaker 1: Because because my body, my brain is not built to

1841
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:12,800
Speaker 1: look at that technology and use it instinctively. I've grown

1842
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:14,680
Speaker 1: up with screens all of my life. I've grown up

1843
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,000
Speaker 1: with phones in my hand, you know. And here I

1844
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 1: am going back looking at like when I was making

1845
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:23,120
Speaker 1: When I was making this record, I was making it with.

1846
01:40:23,880 --> 01:40:25,479
Speaker 1: I was making some of it with a producer called

1847
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 1: Jack Knife Lee who's based out in California, based out

1848
01:40:28,160 --> 01:40:31,800
Speaker 1: in l a UM's based out in Topanga, and he

1849
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:34,000
Speaker 1: has the largest synth collection I've ever seen in my

1850
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 1: entire life. The most amazing thing about working with him

1851
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 1: was I was using I'm using technology that was built

1852
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 1: forty years ago, used that was built fifty years ago,

1853
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm a twenty I was at the time.

1854
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 1: You know. It's almost twice as old as I am.

1855
01:40:50,280 --> 01:40:53,080
Speaker 1: But the instinctive, like my hands, knew where to go,

1856
01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:55,040
Speaker 1: they knew what to do, they knew how to touch it,

1857
01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:57,160
Speaker 1: they knew what to turn to make the noises that

1858
01:40:57,200 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 1: I needed to make, Like it ten oology and music

1859
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:03,920
Speaker 1: for me, for the music I make is just they

1860
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:07,639
Speaker 1: blend so beautifully into each other. I've made things before

1861
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:09,639
Speaker 1: though where I've depended on it, on it too much

1862
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:12,800
Speaker 1: and I can hear it. But this this album, I've

1863
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 1: not done that. I don't think I've done it. I

1864
01:41:15,320 --> 01:41:18,639
Speaker 1: really hope I haven't done it. Now this album feels,

1865
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:21,400
Speaker 1: it feels a lot more organically made. I was able

1866
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:24,080
Speaker 1: to use the instruments I needed, but again, none of

1867
01:41:24,120 --> 01:41:26,559
Speaker 1: it got played if I wasn't playing it. You know that,

1868
01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:29,800
Speaker 1: And that's my that's my rule. Well I love it.

1869
01:41:30,160 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 1: Why why release the album in volumes rather than just

1870
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:38,800
Speaker 1: as a record? Oh? Well, this actually this, But this

1871
01:41:38,880 --> 01:41:42,400
Speaker 1: lends itself quite nicely to the technology conversation. It's purely

1872
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:47,240
Speaker 1: from a standpoint of that's how people consume music. I

1873
01:41:48,040 --> 01:41:49,680
Speaker 1: there are two ways in which you can listen to

1874
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:52,600
Speaker 1: the album once it's available on June twelve, UM. The

1875
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:56,439
Speaker 1: two ways being in the four volumes. Those four four

1876
01:41:56,520 --> 01:42:00,080
Speaker 1: volumes are only going to exist online. They're only to

1877
01:42:00,160 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 1: exist on on like streaming platforms. The other version is

1878
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:07,680
Speaker 1: the physical version. The other version is on CD and

1879
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 1: vinyl and curse set or whatever and download. And that

1880
01:42:11,120 --> 01:42:13,280
Speaker 1: version has a completely different playlist, So it's not just

1881
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 1: like volume one followed by two, three, and four. It's

1882
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:18,559
Speaker 1: track one to track twelve, completely different playlists in a

1883
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:21,640
Speaker 1: completely different order. The purpose behind that for me was

1884
01:42:22,080 --> 01:42:26,439
Speaker 1: because the listening experience is and should be different, and

1885
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 1: the technology now allows you to be able to to

1886
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:33,040
Speaker 1: facilitate that experience to be different, to intend for that

1887
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:35,519
Speaker 1: experience to be different. When I'm streaming music, I'm in

1888
01:42:35,560 --> 01:42:38,479
Speaker 1: a completely different headspace too, when I'm listening to vinyl,

1889
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:42,040
Speaker 1: and I am a consumer that does both right. So

1890
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to target the same wallet twice, but

1891
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:47,080
Speaker 1: I am trying to target the same consumer twice by

1892
01:42:47,120 --> 01:42:50,879
Speaker 1: offering the same the same album, just in a different format.

1893
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 1: When I'm streaming music, I am playlisting it. I'm using

1894
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:57,519
Speaker 1: it in bite sized chunks. My brain is just it's

1895
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:00,679
Speaker 1: thinking differently. It's it's it's talking to its self differently.

1896
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:03,920
Speaker 1: When I'm listening to a vinyl, I'm ritualizing the music

1897
01:43:03,920 --> 01:43:06,400
Speaker 1: that I'm listening to. I'm taking the I'm taking the

1898
01:43:06,479 --> 01:43:08,920
Speaker 1: vinyl out of the sleeve. I'm placing it gently onto

1899
01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:13,160
Speaker 1: my onto my turntable like I am physically engaging with

1900
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:15,840
Speaker 1: them with with a memory. I'm creating for myself, and

1901
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:18,439
Speaker 1: it's being soundtracked by literally the music I'm listening to.

1902
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:22,800
Speaker 1: It's a completely different environment. There is nothing that suggests

1903
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 1: I should be listening to the music I'm listening to

1904
01:43:26,200 --> 01:43:29,599
Speaker 1: in exactly the same playlist, Like, it's such a it's

1905
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,800
Speaker 1: such an easy way to create a different mood. The

1906
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:34,320
Speaker 1: songs are exactly the same, it's still twelve of them.

1907
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:38,719
Speaker 1: It's just two completely different environments. It's two completely different moods. Um. Yeah,

1908
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:40,040
Speaker 1: it was a weird. It was an idea I had

1909
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:41,920
Speaker 1: a few years ago before I had written the album.

1910
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,720
Speaker 1: I asked, um, I asked my management if that was

1911
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:48,599
Speaker 1: something that had been done before, and we couldn't think

1912
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:50,160
Speaker 1: of any examples of when it had been done. We

1913
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:52,200
Speaker 1: also couldn't think of any reason not to do it.

1914
01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 1: It just seemed to be It seemed to be a smart,

1915
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:56,680
Speaker 1: interesting way as well to just ignite some sort of discussion,

1916
01:43:57,120 --> 01:44:00,000
Speaker 1: Like I'm excited to see how people prefer to listen

1917
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:01,960
Speaker 1: to the album. Do they listen to the vinyl version,

1918
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:03,800
Speaker 1: do they listen to that track listing, which is my

1919
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 1: personal favorite track one through track twelve, or do they

1920
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 1: listen to it in the volumes which volume is their favorite.

1921
01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 1: I'm interested to see what people think about that. I

1922
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:15,679
Speaker 1: like the discussion that it could create. Yeah, I love that.

1923
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:18,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm obviously you've come volume one because time

1924
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:21,559
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite songs of all time now,

1925
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:27,400
Speaker 1: which is cool, It's very true. It just makes me

1926
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:32,639
Speaker 1: so happy. Um, but yeah, it'll it'll be very cool

1927
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,880
Speaker 1: to find out how how people are consuming it and

1928
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:38,559
Speaker 1: what those things mean to them. You know. You mentioned

1929
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: that you have a approval rating from your intended audience,

1930
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:46,280
Speaker 1: because your intended audiences you. But something that I find

1931
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:49,519
Speaker 1: about art is that the more specific it is, the

1932
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:53,559
Speaker 1: more relatable it feels to its audience. And see this.

1933
01:44:53,560 --> 01:44:55,320
Speaker 1: This has been surprising for me because I thought the

1934
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:58,599
Speaker 1: opposite was true for so long. No, because you you

1935
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 1: wrote an album for you, but I feel like you

1936
01:45:01,120 --> 01:45:04,040
Speaker 1: wrote an album for me. And I'm sure there are

1937
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:07,360
Speaker 1: so many people who are fans of your music who

1938
01:45:07,400 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 1: are who are listening to this record thinking it's like

1939
01:45:10,479 --> 01:45:13,320
Speaker 1: you read my journal. It's what people have been saying. Yeah,

1940
01:45:13,400 --> 01:45:15,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people have been saying that they that

1941
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:18,240
Speaker 1: they've always enjoyed my music, but they've not been able

1942
01:45:18,320 --> 01:45:21,400
Speaker 1: to access it in such a personal way that they

1943
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 1: have than the way that they've been able to this

1944
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:26,160
Speaker 1: time around. And it's really funny because that was a

1945
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:28,519
Speaker 1: conscious choice of mine. The first album I did want

1946
01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:31,280
Speaker 1: to I wanted to leave a level of ambiguity in

1947
01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: the lyrics. I didn't want to be too specific because

1948
01:45:34,479 --> 01:45:36,439
Speaker 1: because what I thought I was actually doing, what was

1949
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:40,280
Speaker 1: opening the door of accessibility. You know, if I keep

1950
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 1: my lyrics relatively vague, more people are going to be

1951
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:47,120
Speaker 1: able to apply them to their situations. No, the exact

1952
01:45:47,120 --> 01:45:50,080
Speaker 1: opposite was true. Instead, the minute I started being way

1953
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:54,839
Speaker 1: overly specific about my personal my personal stories, and and

1954
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:59,240
Speaker 1: and and also, like Henry and I, Henry Whoaiki wrote

1955
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:02,360
Speaker 1: the lyrics on the album with we made that. We

1956
01:46:02,479 --> 01:46:06,160
Speaker 1: made the choice to be as literal as we could.

1957
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 1: We did not want to use unnecessary metaphor. We had

1958
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:10,760
Speaker 1: to be completely brutally honest. If we were going to

1959
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:13,839
Speaker 1: put metaphor in the lyric, it really had to deserve

1960
01:46:13,920 --> 01:46:17,120
Speaker 1: to be there. And and and even writing with with

1961
01:46:17,240 --> 01:46:21,240
Speaker 1: that sort of scrutiny, I did, you know, I was

1962
01:46:21,320 --> 01:46:23,840
Speaker 1: never concerned that people weren't going to enjoy the music,

1963
01:46:23,880 --> 01:46:25,640
Speaker 1: but I was kind of concerned if people were going

1964
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:28,400
Speaker 1: to be able to relate. And it just seems that

1965
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:32,439
Speaker 1: my concerns were completely unwarranted because, like you said, people

1966
01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:35,120
Speaker 1: have just responded to this in such in such a

1967
01:46:35,160 --> 01:46:38,559
Speaker 1: powerful way, in in such a way as well especially

1968
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:43,080
Speaker 1: with with what's happening right now, the the the influx

1969
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:45,639
Speaker 1: of messages that I've received from people who have said,

1970
01:46:46,200 --> 01:46:49,519
Speaker 1: you know, now everything that's happening, these songs are hitting

1971
01:46:49,520 --> 01:46:52,200
Speaker 1: me in such a way I didn't you know exactly

1972
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:54,280
Speaker 1: like you said, it's like you've taken writings from my

1973
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:56,360
Speaker 1: journal and written them into a song. Now, obviously I've

1974
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:58,000
Speaker 1: never meant to do that, and I take no credit

1975
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:00,479
Speaker 1: for doing that because I wrote a song for mate.

1976
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:03,800
Speaker 1: But the fact that people have been able to live

1977
01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:07,120
Speaker 1: in these songs so deeply and love them in such

1978
01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:11,720
Speaker 1: like personal ways, you know, they're not mine anymore, the

1979
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 1: songs of mine when I listened to them, But they're

1980
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:16,639
Speaker 1: not when someone else does, they're there's, they're yours. Um,

1981
01:47:16,680 --> 01:47:18,320
Speaker 1: that's that. I don't know. I think. I think I

1982
01:47:18,360 --> 01:47:20,639
Speaker 1: believe in that in music. I believe in that right now.

1983
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:23,080
Speaker 1: I might not in the future, but like, I don't know,

1984
01:47:23,120 --> 01:47:25,599
Speaker 1: it seems to be. It seems to be worth believing

1985
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 1: in because it seems to be the truth. Yeah, I

1986
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:32,719
Speaker 1: love it. I'm going to ask you my favorite question now.

1987
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:41,600
Speaker 1: So since we both have shows but our works in progress,

1988
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:47,320
Speaker 1: I'm curious when you think about the phrase, and obviously

1989
01:47:47,360 --> 01:47:51,000
Speaker 1: it's one that resonates deeply with you. What feels like

1990
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:59,880
Speaker 1: a work in progress in your life right now? Right

1991
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:06,200
Speaker 1: right now, I am, yeah, going back to the the

1992
01:48:07,040 --> 01:48:15,240
Speaker 1: cyclical nous of emotional journeys and learning lessons right now,

1993
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:19,920
Speaker 1: the right now, I'm really having to take some time

1994
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:24,320
Speaker 1: to deal with my patients. I don't know whether it

1995
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:26,800
Speaker 1: is I don't think it's the I don't think it's

1996
01:48:26,800 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: the pandemic. I don't think it's the isolation or the quarantine.

1997
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:32,400
Speaker 1: I think it's I think there are there are things

1998
01:48:32,439 --> 01:48:37,599
Speaker 1: in my head that I I'm not taking as seriously

1999
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:40,400
Speaker 1: as the message that I'm promoting about my album. To

2000
01:48:40,439 --> 01:48:44,160
Speaker 1: put it very frankly, and you know, it's it's um.

2001
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: It's easy to say, and it's more difficult to do.

2002
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:49,760
Speaker 1: And and the you know, the work in progress right

2003
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:52,120
Speaker 1: now in my life is still as I know it

2004
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:56,640
Speaker 1: will be forever me and how I feel about myself.

2005
01:48:57,439 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 1: And it's funny. Yeah, weeks ago, I was feeling really

2006
01:49:01,160 --> 01:49:03,160
Speaker 1: good about myself, and just the last couple of days

2007
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:07,800
Speaker 1: it's been getting really tough again knowing, you know, the

2008
01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:12,639
Speaker 1: work in progress is is still convincing myself to commit

2009
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 1: to what I'm doing because it really is worth it.

2010
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:19,240
Speaker 1: Even though I can't feel the fulfillment of that worth immediately,

2011
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:22,479
Speaker 1: you know that I'm banking that worth until later. I'll

2012
01:49:22,560 --> 01:49:25,599
Speaker 1: feel it later, and I just have to convince myself

2013
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:27,599
Speaker 1: that that's true. I have to connect to that future

2014
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 1: and work for it now. And that's you know, that's

2015
01:49:30,520 --> 01:49:32,519
Speaker 1: proving to be a challenge, that's proving to be really hard,

2016
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 1: but I'm working at it. That's the point. You know,

2017
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 1: Today was really tough. Doing that radio session was really tough,

2018
01:49:38,760 --> 01:49:42,120
Speaker 1: not because of you know, the person who was interviewing me.

2019
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:44,000
Speaker 1: The questions were amazing. I got to talk about some

2020
01:49:44,000 --> 01:49:46,000
Speaker 1: really wonderful stuff, like I'm talking about it with you,

2021
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:48,480
Speaker 1: but you know, doing a show in front of absolutely

2022
01:49:48,479 --> 01:49:51,519
Speaker 1: no one and having zero understanding as to whether people

2023
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:53,600
Speaker 1: are are entertained or not, because that's part of my

2024
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:55,519
Speaker 1: job as well. I'm an entertainer. I want people to

2025
01:49:55,560 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 1: have fun when they're watching me. I it was really tough,

2026
01:49:59,040 --> 01:50:01,360
Speaker 1: and it did seem to to be. It wasn't the

2027
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 1: straw that broke the camel's back, but my back literally hurts,

2028
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 1: like my shoulder, my back. I'm not sleeping well kind

2029
01:50:09,080 --> 01:50:11,280
Speaker 1: of thing like, I don't know, I think there's I'm

2030
01:50:11,360 --> 01:50:16,160
Speaker 1: not I'm not sharing enough. I'm keeping myself quiet, I'm

2031
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:18,000
Speaker 1: doing the things that I do when I'm about to

2032
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:20,519
Speaker 1: begin to spiral, and I'm and I'm seeing them happen.

2033
01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:25,480
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. But do you think that that's part of

2034
01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:29,120
Speaker 1: the growth, is that when you can identify it in

2035
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:32,000
Speaker 1: real time, rather than fall down the rabbit hole, you

2036
01:50:32,120 --> 01:50:36,639
Speaker 1: can you can start to walk walk a different path.

2037
01:50:37,080 --> 01:50:39,479
Speaker 1: That is the hope. But again, it takes hard work

2038
01:50:39,520 --> 01:50:41,080
Speaker 1: to be able to commit to doing something like that.

2039
01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:45,000
Speaker 1: You know, you have to the I I still do sometimes,

2040
01:50:45,040 --> 01:50:47,479
Speaker 1: but used to have a really debilitating fear of flying,

2041
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:51,559
Speaker 1: and I took a course that was flying with Confidence

2042
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:55,120
Speaker 1: of course that British Airways offer and absolutely sorted me out. Um.

2043
01:50:55,240 --> 01:50:57,320
Speaker 1: It was incredible. But one of the things they teach

2044
01:50:57,360 --> 01:50:59,479
Speaker 1: you to do is to look for those early signs

2045
01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:01,600
Speaker 1: of panic. You know, it could be triggered by just

2046
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:04,000
Speaker 1: being in an airport, It could be triggered by specifically

2047
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:08,040
Speaker 1: going through you know, security, or or it could come

2048
01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:10,400
Speaker 1: as late as sitting on the plane. For me, it's

2049
01:51:10,439 --> 01:51:12,559
Speaker 1: it's being in the plane and it's turbulence. Those are

2050
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,639
Speaker 1: the things that start to set off my my panic brain.

2051
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:18,439
Speaker 1: And what they teach you to do is they teach

2052
01:51:18,479 --> 01:51:21,120
Speaker 1: you to travel with an elastic band around your wrist,

2053
01:51:21,520 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 1: and they teach you too to notice those signs. And

2054
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:30,759
Speaker 1: what they translate it to you as is your body

2055
01:51:30,880 --> 01:51:32,720
Speaker 1: is going into fight or flight mode, but it can't

2056
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:35,840
Speaker 1: see a threat, so you have to give it a threat.

2057
01:51:36,280 --> 01:51:39,559
Speaker 1: And the threat is to snap the elastic band on

2058
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:43,960
Speaker 1: your wrist right. And what it does is it directs

2059
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:46,960
Speaker 1: your fear to a source of pain, and it allows

2060
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:50,479
Speaker 1: you to just closureize, take ten deep breaths. It allows

2061
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 1: your brain to slow down and and and you know,

2062
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:56,479
Speaker 1: offer yourself just a little bit of time to be

2063
01:51:56,520 --> 01:51:59,680
Speaker 1: able to gather yourself by directing the fear to a

2064
01:52:00,040 --> 01:52:03,240
Speaker 1: with significant place, you know. But it doesn't work if

2065
01:52:03,240 --> 01:52:05,880
Speaker 1: you're not willing to snap yourself. It doesn't work if

2066
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,000
Speaker 1: you're not if you're not going to cause yourself that

2067
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:09,479
Speaker 1: little amount of pain first, just to be able to

2068
01:52:09,560 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 1: direct some of that fear. And that's the thing I'm

2069
01:52:12,439 --> 01:52:14,519
Speaker 1: worried about with myself at the moment, is I can see,

2070
01:52:14,600 --> 01:52:16,519
Speaker 1: I can notice the panic. I'm going into fight or

2071
01:52:16,520 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 1: flight mode. I don't know if I'm brave enough right

2072
01:52:19,280 --> 01:52:22,439
Speaker 1: now to be able to pull the elastic band. I

2073
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:25,599
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm also you know that there are things

2074
01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:28,080
Speaker 1: I could be doing to help myself do that, and

2075
01:52:28,120 --> 01:52:29,599
Speaker 1: I know I'm not doing them. So that's the first

2076
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:34,240
Speaker 1: challenges is kind of doing them, doing the work. The

2077
01:52:34,240 --> 01:52:37,599
Speaker 1: fulfillment will come later doing the work now. I think

2078
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:43,679
Speaker 1: sometimes the longest distance on earth is, you know, twelve

2079
01:52:43,760 --> 01:52:46,799
Speaker 1: or fourteen inches between the head and the heart, between

2080
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:52,240
Speaker 1: what we intellectually know versus what we emotionally or psychically

2081
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:57,600
Speaker 1: put into practice. You know how to regulate yourself, you

2082
01:52:57,640 --> 01:53:00,880
Speaker 1: know how to identify, and in all my own ways,

2083
01:53:00,920 --> 01:53:05,240
Speaker 1: so do I. But sometimes just changing the habit or

2084
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:08,800
Speaker 1: we're taking that first step field, it's I mean, it's

2085
01:53:08,840 --> 01:53:13,240
Speaker 1: it's paralyzing. But that's where I think that things like this,

2086
01:53:14,479 --> 01:53:18,000
Speaker 1: whether we're having this conversation offline between just me and you,

2087
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:21,479
Speaker 1: are having it in a way that our listeners who

2088
01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: have joined us today can learn from it. Identifying with

2089
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:30,040
Speaker 1: your people who can say, hey, I see you, and

2090
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 1: and even though you might feel scared, I know you're

2091
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:37,720
Speaker 1: capable of this. I I know I see your progress,

2092
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:40,800
Speaker 1: I see the work you've done. I'm so proud of you.

2093
01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:44,880
Speaker 1: You know, I will always be a person who is

2094
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:48,040
Speaker 1: ready to do that for you. And I'm beyond grateful

2095
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:50,680
Speaker 1: that you have, since you walked into my life and

2096
01:53:50,680 --> 01:53:53,680
Speaker 1: moved into my apartment, been a person who has been

2097
01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:56,320
Speaker 1: willing and able to do that for me. You know,

2098
01:53:56,680 --> 01:54:01,759
Speaker 1: I think, I think sometimes sometimes it's not snapping a band,

2099
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:05,599
Speaker 1: it's leaning on on your community will snap it for you. Yeah,

2100
01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:09,639
Speaker 1: that's fair. That's incredibly fair. So I'm not very good

2101
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:23,000
Speaker 1: at doing that. See me, see me, just that's really funny.

2102
01:54:24,479 --> 01:54:29,479
Speaker 1: M hm, Well, thank you and I love you. Thank you.

2103
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:31,240
Speaker 1: I love you too. This has been really fun. This

2104
01:54:31,280 --> 01:54:39,000
Speaker 1: has been really really enjoyable. This show is executive produced

2105
01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:43,360
Speaker 1: by Me, Sophia Bush, and sim Sarna. Our supervising producer

2106
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:47,280
Speaker 1: is Alison Bresnick. Our associate producer is Kate Line. This

2107
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:50,840
Speaker 1: episode was edited by Matt Sasaki and our music was

2108
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:53,720
Speaker 1: written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. This

2109
01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:55,480
Speaker 1: show is brought to you Brilliant Anatomy