1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Sign Stuff, a production of iHeartRadio. I'm 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: More Him, and today we're diving into the science of beauty. 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: What makes someone beautiful, what's going on in our brains 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: when we see a beautiful thing? And is it possible 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: to be addicted to beauty? We're going to talk to 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: a couple of beauty experts, including an evolutionary biologist who 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: has a brand new theory about what beauty is. So 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: get ready with me as we explore what makes something beautiful? 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: I promise the answers our real beauty. Enjoy. Hey everyone, Okay, 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: here are some interesting facts about beauty. Babies as young 11 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: as two months old can tell the difference between someone 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: who's supposed to be attractive and someone who's not. In 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: a famous nineteen eighty seven study, scientists showed a bunch 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: of babies photos of women that were rated by adults 15 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: to be attractive or not, and then they measured which 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: photos to babies would stare at more. They found that 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: babies would look at the faces of women who were 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: rated to be attractive more than the faces of women 19 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: rated to be less attractive. Other studies and beauty have 20 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: found that people who are considered beautiful are also more 21 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: likely to be thought of as being smarter, more trustworthy, 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: and confident. They get hired more for jobs, and they 23 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: are more likely to get paid more and get more promotions. 24 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: Studies have even found that being beautiful or attractive will 25 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: make you less likely to be found guilty if you're 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: ever accused of a crime. Clearly it helps to be beautiful. 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: So the first thing I did was try to see 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: how I could be more beautiful, and to do that, 29 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: I reached out to a plastic surgeon. Well, thank you, 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: doctor Sadegi for talking with us. 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much for inviting me to your studio. 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: I called up doctor Piem Sadegi. Doctor Sadeghi was a 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: plastic surgeon in his home country of Iran and did 34 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: his medical fellowship in plastic surgery at the Cleveland Clinic 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: in Ohio. Currently, he's the resident in pathology at Eastern 36 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: Carolina University. I wanted to ask doctor Sadeghi what he 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: would do to make me more beautiful, but apparently that's 38 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: not how it works. 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: A doctor's job and responsibility is first to listen to 40 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: the patient to know what exactly the definition of beauty 41 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: of that patient is and what it means to them. 42 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 2: So that's very important to first understand the beauty standards. 43 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: A doctor should spend a great time dealing with the 44 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: patient to be able to understand those standards. 45 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: Okay, According to doctor Sadegi, a plastic surgeon's job is 46 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: to quote promote a patient beauty standards unquote, which means 47 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: it all depends on what the patient considers to be beautiful. 48 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: But that's kind of the question I wanted to know now. 49 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: The reason I reached out to doctor Sadeghi in particular 50 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: is that he's written several academic papers on plastic surgery procedures, 51 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: and specifically, he and his colleagues at the Cleveland Clinic 52 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: published the paper titled what is Beauty? So I asked 53 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: him to tell us, how do you define beauty? 54 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: That's a great question and a simple question, but a 55 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: very sophisticated answer. I want to answer your question with this. 56 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: Beauty is a multi dimensional concept that has intrigued philosophers, artists, scientists, 57 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: and surgeons for centuries. Cannot be fully defined, as Plato 58 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: suggests it, Beauty is not just what appears pleasing. It 59 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: often harbors a deeper meaning or essence, inviting us to 60 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: contemplate beyond the surface. From both philosophical and neurobiological perspectives, 61 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: beauty engages not only our senses, but also our emotions 62 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: and memory, evoking a powerful, often mysterious response. So good 63 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: luck with that. Yeah, thank you. 64 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: We're trying. Yeah, thanks a lot, doctor said, Diggy. It's 65 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: a tricky concept, so I asked him if he could 66 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: be more specific. For example, what makes a human phase 67 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: or body appear more beautiful? 68 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: So promasurgical and scientific perspective, Symmetry, proportion, and harmony are 69 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: key elements of facial and bodily beauty. For the phase, 70 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: features such as balance, third and fifth symmetry, and the 71 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: proportions like the golden ratio play important roles. Similarly, for 72 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: the body, of characteristics like waste to heat ratios in 73 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: women or muscle or symmetry in men are often perceived 74 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: as attractive. 75 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: You mentioned proportions. Can you explain what that means? 76 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 2: So the proportions of the elements in the face are 77 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: like different in different people and in different cultures. 78 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: Meaning some people might have larger eyes. 79 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: Correct, like the distances between the eyes the nose. The 80 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: nose with the lips, the length of their lips, the 81 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: proportion of the upper lip to the lower lip. 82 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: Okay, here's our first clue about what makes something beautiful, 83 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: and this is the idea that it's related to ratios 84 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: or proportions, for example, the ratio between the waist and 85 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: the hip in women, or the shoulders and the waist 86 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: in men, or for faces, how symmetric you're is, or 87 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: what the relative distances are between your eyes and nose 88 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: and ears and mouth and cheeks are. But searching the 89 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: scientific literature on this, it's hard to find a study 90 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: that conclusively proves there's a perfect face or an ideal 91 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: set of ratios that people find beautiful. Some studies find 92 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: that symmetry is important, some don't. Scientists have tried to 93 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: look for common features and the proportions of faces that 94 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: are ranked by test subjects to be beautiful, and it 95 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: seems there are none. It's like, we can all tell 96 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: if a face looks beautiful to us, but trying to 97 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: say why that face is beautiful is hard. In one 98 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight study, researchers at Google and tele 99 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: Abeef University had to use ninety eight variables about the 100 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: face to get a computer program to predict how human 101 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: judges would rate faces to be beautiful. In other words, 102 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: when we're looking at a face and judging whether we 103 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: find it handsome, pretty or not, we might be juggling 104 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: as many as ninety eight variables in our heads. And 105 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: there are several ideas that make this even more complicated. 106 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: So there is sort of like a general idealized face 107 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: and body for men and women. But I imagine that 108 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: it can vary depending on the person and the culture. 109 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: Right correct. For example, in Asia, the curvedness in the 110 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: forehead and also the ratio of forehead between like the 111 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: hairline and the eyebrows is different. 112 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: Oh, how is it different? So in Asia prefer. 113 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: What not to be like totally flat, let's say, And 114 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: that is more correlated in Asian cultures, So we need 115 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: to also consider that. For example, if you want to 116 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: practice in Asian countries, you might get more requests from 117 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 2: the patient who want to do these types of procedures 118 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: rather than the others. 119 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: Yes, as you can imagine, beauty standards vary with culture. 120 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: What's considered beautiful in one culture might be different to 121 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: what's considered beautiful in another culture. Beauty standards can also 122 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: change over time within a culture. 123 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: These standards of beauty have evolved dramatically across time and cultures. 124 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: In ancient Greece, proportion and mathematical harmony were central. During 125 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: the Renaissance, fuller figures were admired as symbols of fertility 126 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: and wealth. Today, especially in Western media, beauty often favors thinness, youth, 127 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: and flawlessness, though this is now being increasingly challenged by 128 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: more inclusive ideals that celebrate diverse body types, ages, and 129 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: skin conditions. Importantly, each culture defines beauty in its own way. 130 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: This emphasizes that beauty is not only in the eye 131 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: of the beholder, but also shaped by the society and 132 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: time in which we leave. 133 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: Okay, how do we make sense of all of this? 134 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: It seems that beauty is definitely a thing. Babies can 135 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: recognize it, which means there's something inherent in our DNA 136 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: about it, and there's also something universal about beauty. No 137 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: matter what culture you're in, people talk about beauty, and 138 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: everyone in the world has opinions about whether something or 139 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: someone is beautiful or not. At the same time, it's 140 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: hard to describe exactly what it is that makes us think, 141 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: ah that's beautiful and what's considered beautiful can be different 142 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: depending on the person, their culture, and it can change 143 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: over time. So to date, there hasn't really been a 144 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: strong scientific theory about what beauty is until now. On 145 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: our next segment, we'll talk to an evolutionary biologist who 146 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: thinks she has a theory of beauty that covers all 147 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: of these aspects of beauty and how it has played 148 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: a role in our evolution. But first, I was curious 149 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: about something doctor Siedeggi brought up. You mentioned that the 150 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: goal is to promote the patient's quality of life. What 151 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: does that mean? 152 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 2: Right? So, when you think of the beauty concept and 153 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: when you have a beautiful image of yourself in your subconsciousness, 154 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: you think in a positive way. When you think that 155 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: you are the most beautiful person, not comparing to anyone, 156 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: but just you are beautiful, this is a positive statement 157 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: of your mind and this positivity, this mindset, positivity is 158 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: very important in your daily job, in your daily activity 159 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 2: because it gives a positive energy to your mind, so 160 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: then you can better perform in your daily basics. 161 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: I say, feeling beautiful is part of how we feel 162 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: better about ourselves in general. 163 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: That's right. And also it can affect the others. It 164 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: can be transmitted to coworkers, to friends, to anyone because 165 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: it's a positive energy, and that's why I believe it 166 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: can promote the quality of life. 167 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: All Right, we'll dig into the biology of beauty and 168 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: how it's affected evolution after the break and stay with us. 169 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Welcome back. All right. We talked 170 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: about how beauty is hard to define and how there 171 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be a standard for what beauty is. 172 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: It can vary from person to person and from culture 173 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: to culture. But does that mean that it's impossible to 174 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: study scientifically? Not necessarily. There's a growing group of scientists 175 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: who think they figured out the right way to define 176 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: beauty and they think it works for humans and possibly 177 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: other animals. To fill us and I talked to one 178 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: of those scientists, doctor Tamra Mendelssohn. 179 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 3: My name is Tamra Mendelssohn, and I am a professor 180 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: of biological sciences at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. 181 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: I study evolutionary biology and specifically animal behavior. 182 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: So to start us off, how do scientists define beauty? 183 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: You know, it's hard to pin down, so you might 184 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: get a different definition from every scientist you ask. 185 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of the beauty of it. 186 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 3: Sure, I would say only relatively recently have a critical 187 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 3: mass of scientists really started to address the question. Philosophers 188 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: have been asking for centuries, and scientists surely ask here 189 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 3: and there. But I think recently, with the development of 190 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 3: technology in artificial intelligence and in neuroscience, I think we're 191 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: better able to ask this question from a scientific perspective. 192 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: What do you mean advances in AI and neuroscience, what 193 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: has been happening there? 194 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: Well, we can use neural networks to visualize activity in 195 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: the brain and figure out where in the brain information 196 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: is processed, how it's processed. 197 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: And so way to have those scientists been finding in 198 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: terms of beauty. 199 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 3: Well, maybe it makes sense to start with our definition 200 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 3: of beauty and then I can talk about how the 201 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: technology relates to and enforces that definition. We just wrote 202 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 3: a paper that just came out in Biological Reviews. This 203 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 3: is with my colleagues Julian Renew from the CNRS in France, 204 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: Dave Schukar from the University of Saint Andrews in Scotland, 205 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 3: and Gil Rosenthal from the University of Padava in Italy. 206 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: And we are all evolutionary biologists who still the animal communication, 207 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 3: and we define it beauty then as the pleasure or 208 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 3: hedonic impact of fluent information processing, independent of the function 209 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: or consummatory reward of that stimulus. 210 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: That's a bit of a mouthful the area, right. Okay. 211 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: What doctor Mendelssohn is doing here is trying to come 212 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: up with a definition of beauty that holds up and 213 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: that is useful to scientists. If a definition is vague 214 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: or can't be tested, then you can't really do science 215 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: with it. Say one more time, what's the definition of beauty. 216 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 3: The pleasure or hedonic impact of fluent information processing, independent 217 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 3: of the function or consummatory reward of that stimulus. 218 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so I guess we'll start with the first part. 219 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: It's a feeling. Beauty is a feeling. 220 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 3: Yes, beauty is a feeling. Absolutely, it's the pleasure or 221 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: what psychologists or neuroscientists called hedonic impact. 222 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 223 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 3: It feels good. So every animal has some kind of 224 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 3: a reward system. Vertebrates especially like us and other primates 225 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 3: and fish, which is what I study, all have What's 226 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: called a mesolympic reward system that generates positive feelings. It 227 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: seems clear from early studies of beauty and philosophy to 228 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: now empirically, it's been shown that beauty is pleasure and 229 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: that at least all vertebrates, if not all animals, should 230 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: have the capacity to experience that. 231 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: To experience pleasure, or to experience the sense of beauty. 232 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: Good question. So let's start with pleasure. You have to 233 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: have that. If other animals are going to experience beauty, 234 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 3: they must also be able to experience pleasure. That's like 235 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 3: the first piece. 236 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: So it seems like you're saying that beauty is an 237 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: experience felt by the person looking at something that's quote 238 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: beautiful unquote, meaning that it's not an inherent property of something. 239 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: Very much so, yes, it's an interaction. 240 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: It's the reaction that person or animal has looking at 241 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: this other organism. 242 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, or listening to a beautiful piece of music 243 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: for example. 244 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: Oh right, right, all right. The first part of doctor 245 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: Mendelssohn's definition of beauty is that it's a feeling felt 246 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: by the person looking at or listening to something. It's 247 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: not inherent in the thing being observed. In other words, 248 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: Beauty really is in the eye or ear of the beholder, 249 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: and it's not just any feeling. It's a feeling of pleasure. Now, 250 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: she mentioned the reward system, and that is the circuit 251 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: in your brain that gets turned on when you feel good. 252 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: If you've heard of dopamine, dopamine is the brain chemical 253 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: that gets released that makes this circuit work. It's also 254 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: the circuit that gets hijacked when you become addicted. We'll 255 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: get to that later, but for now, just remember that 256 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: beauty is a feeling. Okay, So it's a feeling and 257 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: you said it's a feeling that's related to information processing. 258 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 3: Yes, great, So that's like the next piece, right, and 259 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 3: it's specifically. The word we use in our definition is 260 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 3: fluent information processing. I think most people can wrap their 261 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 3: minds around the concept of fluency, Like when you're fluent 262 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 3: in a language, it's easy, right, you don't even have 263 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: to think about it. It's easy to speak that language 264 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: you're fluent. So psychologists use fluency as the basis of beauty. 265 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: So beauty is something that is easy, easy to process. 266 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 3: So in neuroesthetics they model beauty as efficient information processing. 267 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: It's when something is processed at low cost. 268 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: Oh, I guess this is bringing to mind the phrase 269 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: that someone is easy on the eyes? Is that sort 270 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: of what this relates to? 271 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 3: Absolutely, one hundred percent, that's exactly it. 272 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: Yes, meaning if I look at something and somehow my 273 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: brain doesn't have to think much about it, somehow that's beautiful. 274 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 3: Yes, that is the core piece of beauty. And so 275 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: we're arguing that not necessarily all efficiently or fluently processed 276 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 3: information is beautiful, but that all beautiful stimuli have this 277 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 3: in common of being efficiently or fluently processed. 278 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: Okay, this gets a little bit technical, but the main 279 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: point is that, according to doctor Mendelssohn, a key part 280 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: of something being beautiful is that it gives us information, 281 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: and that it gives us that information in a way 282 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: that's easy for our brain to process. For example, you 283 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: might apply that to a face. If face has balanced proportions, 284 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: maybe that's easier for our brain to process that it's 285 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: a face, and because it's easy, our brain goes, ooh, 286 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: that was easy, and it gives us a little pang 287 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: of pleasure. And that experience of pleasure, doctor Mendelssohn and 288 00:18:54,960 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: her colleagues argue is what beauty is it makes me 289 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: notice that you're using the word efficiency, meaning that it's 290 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: not how much information is being given to my brain, 291 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: it's how easily my brain can process it. 292 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 3: That's right. Efficiently processed information isn't necessarily simple. It can 293 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 3: be complex. But if that complex information is processed efficiently 294 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: at low cost, then that is pleasurable. 295 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: Well, I guess what would be the opposite of that? 296 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: Does that mean that's something that's not beautiful or ugly? 297 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: Would you say something that's not beautiful? Would you use 298 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: the word ugly? 299 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 3: I think that possibly this concept of ugly might have 300 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 3: more cognitive connotations, so it may remind us of something gross. 301 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 3: So ugly isn't necessarily just inefficiently processed information. Inefficiently processed 302 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: information is uncomfortable, for sure, that's been shown. But whether 303 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 3: it's ugly, I think, is another question. 304 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: It's true some people find ugly things beautiful. Okay, we 305 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: talked about how beauty is a feeling and how it's 306 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: about information being efficient. Now let's talk about what's in 307 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: that information. And do you apply this definition of beauty 308 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: that we have so far to just other organisms or 309 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: does it apply to all things? 310 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: All things? 311 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 1: So then what sort of information am I getting when 312 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: I look at a beautiful face? 313 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: Well, you're getting a lot of information right at all levels. 314 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: But if we were to judge whether a particular face 315 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: is beautiful or not, then by our definition, we would 316 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 3: be asking if that face is more efficiently processed than 317 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: other faces. So there are some really basic ways that 318 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 3: information can be efficiently processed, Like symmetry is efficiently processed, 319 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 3: because that's basically you're getting two for one, right, So 320 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 3: that's cheap. Prototypicality when a stimulus is like the best 321 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 3: representative of a category that is efficiently processed. 322 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: All right, This is kind of interesting. What doctor Mendelsson 323 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: means here when she talks about prototypicality is basically the 324 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: average face in a group of people. And this is 325 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: something that was found in some of the studies I 326 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. If you take a bunch of photos of 327 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 1: people's faces and you add all those faces together to 328 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: get kind of the average face of that group, test 329 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: subjects will generally think that face is more beautiful than 330 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: any one of the other faces in the group, especially 331 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: for women's faces. In other words, part of having a 332 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: beautiful face is having features that don't stand out very much. 333 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: And doctor Mendelssohn argues that face is beautiful because it's 334 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: easy for our brains to process since the average is 335 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: kind of what our brains are expecting. So you're saying 336 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: that our brains are sort of tuned to recognize some 337 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: certain things or like certain things, and so when something 338 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: satisfies that tuning in a really easy and efficient way, 339 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: then we think, oh, that's beautiful. 340 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, arguably there's potentially more to it than that, 341 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 3: but that's necessary but potentially insufficient component of beauty. 342 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: I see you said that there was another component, which 343 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: was its independent what it's independent of. 344 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 3: It's independent according to the definition of the function or 345 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 3: consummatory reward provided by the stimulus. So this goes back 346 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 3: to Kant and his idea of disinterestedness, that beauty. Beauty 347 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: is a self sufficient source of pleasure that we don't 348 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 3: necessarily want to own it. That beauty then is liking 349 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: without wanting, and the only wanting maybe you feel towards 350 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: something that's beautiful is you just want to keep processing it. 351 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: You want to keep listening, or you want to keep looking, 352 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 3: but you don't want to have it. You don't want 353 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: to eat it, you don't want to mate with it. 354 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: Okay. The last part of this definition of beauty is 355 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: that we should like beauty for beauty's sake. In other words, 356 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: part of the definition of beauty is that it's addictive. 357 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: We want it just for the pleasure of experiencing it. Okay. 358 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: When we come back, we're going to talk about how 359 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: beauty could have affected our evolution and whether it's possible 360 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: for an animal like a dog or cat or fish 361 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: to experience beauty. Stay with us. You're listening to science 362 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: stuff and we're back, all right. Cool. So we have 363 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: a definition of beauty, and then how does that apply 364 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: to evolution and our biology and why we are all here? Great? 365 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 3: I love that question. So the way we came at this, 366 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 3: my colleagues and I, is because we study animal behavior 367 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 3: and we're interested in how animals choose their mates. I 368 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: study fish that are stunningly beautiful? Are they beautiful to 369 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 3: other fish? Are our peacock's beautiful to pea hens? What 370 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 3: is the experience that those animals have? What are they feeling? 371 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: Meaning? Is it a coincidence that we find a peacock 372 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: still beautiful and that it's also something phans find attractive. 373 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: Is there a connection there that's kind of what you're asking. 374 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then key, if animals experience it as beautiful, 375 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 3: how does that affect their decision to choose or not 376 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 3: choose that other individual that has this ornament as a mate? 377 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: Meaning is a peacock's tail beautiful to a phn correct? Okay, 378 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: The last question we're asking here today is what is 379 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: the role of beauty in nature? If animals and our 380 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: ancestors could experience beauty, how did it shape evolution? And 381 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: here doctor Mendelson doesn't have a lot of answers. Like 382 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned, this theory is still pretty new, which is exciting. 383 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: If you've never talked to a scientist while they're still 384 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: formulating their hypothesis, it's interesting to hear how they think. 385 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: You know, it seems like we as humans use beauty 386 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: as a factor in our choice of who we want 387 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: to mate with. Is that the same for animals as well? 388 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 3: Here's an analogy. You would need to buy a new car, 389 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 3: so you go to the car sales place, or you 390 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 3: want a candy bar. You have a hankering for something sweet, 391 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: and you go to the grocery store and you look 392 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 3: at all these candy bars. Which candy bar? To what 393 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 3: extent does the wrapper influence your decision? You already want 394 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 3: the candy bar, you already want to mate. What role 395 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 3: does the beauty play. 396 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: In that process? Yes, do we know? No? 397 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 3: I don't think we do. 398 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: Okay, what are some of your hypotheses? 399 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 3: So we argue that this beauty, this experience of beauty, 400 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: encourages proximity. So the idea is that an animal already 401 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: wants to mate, say it's breeding season, they're already looking 402 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 3: for a mate. Then they see something beautiful that makes 403 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 3: them feel good and they're attracted to it for that reason, 404 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 3: so they want to keep processing it. So it just 405 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 3: encourages proximity, and then once they're physically proximate to that individual, 406 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 3: then they may So it's just kind of like it's 407 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 3: a marketplace, and you know, there's a lot to choose from. 408 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 3: You just don't know which one. And there's something that 409 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 3: really catches your eye or catches your ear and makes 410 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: you feel good, so that's the one you. 411 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: Go to, all right. Doctor Mendelssoh's hypothesis is that beauty 412 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: evolved as a kind of hack to give animals an 413 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: edge during mate selection. Being beautiful or having features that 414 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: turn on our potential mate's information processing reward system has 415 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: nothing to do with survival, but it does help you 416 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: get attention. So I feel like maybe you're saying that 417 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: beauty is something that has come up even though it's 418 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: not useful for survival, Like, maybe it's just useful for 419 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: choosing a mate. 420 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. For sure, our brains tuning to our environment and 421 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 3: wanting to process information efficiently. So then what's happening is 422 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 3: that mutations arise that exploit this bias and that make 423 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 3: themselves attractive because they're efficiently processed. 424 00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: Hmmm. 425 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 3: It has nothing to do with whether they are more 426 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 3: fit if you will, or have you know, quote unquote 427 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 3: better genes. 428 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: Meaning a peacock's tail obviously has nothing to do with 429 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: how it might get food in the wild. But because 430 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: it pickles the peahan's soft spot for information processing, that's 431 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: why peacocks over time evolved these huge, colorful tales. 432 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 3: Yes, and in fact, arguably this is it's not good 433 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 3: for them to have these big tails, right, It does 434 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 3: actually affect their ability to find food in a bad way. 435 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 3: I saw this great video of a tiger just totally 436 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 3: nailing a male peacock who is displaying because they're just 437 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: so obvious. Right, tigers can just the right. So and 438 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 3: Darwin famously said that a peacock's tail, when I look 439 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 3: at it, it makes me sick, because he had developed 440 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 3: his whole theory of natural selection and then he looks 441 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: at this tail and he's like, that's ridiculous. That does 442 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 3: nothing for its survival. So then he publishes his book 443 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 3: on sexual selection to explain that maybe sometimes traits can 444 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 3: help you with reproduction, even at a cost to survival. 445 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 3: And that's where beauty might come in. 446 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: I see, sometimes beauty might be a burden on your survival. Yes, 447 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: but because we have a beauty response, it's there because 448 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: it gives you an advantage in mating. And you're saying, 449 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: we have this beauty response because our brains like information 450 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: that's easy to process. 451 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 3: Got it, that's it. 452 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Apparently Darwin was not a fan of peacocks. Okay. 453 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: The last part of our conversation I want to play 454 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: for you was when we talked about whether we can 455 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: change what we find beautiful if beauty is what our 456 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: brains find easy to process, and if we find easier 457 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: to process things that match what we expect. Does that 458 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: mean changing beauty standards? It's just about changing expectations. 459 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 3: And then throw another puzzling piece on top of the 460 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 3: mere exposure effect. So familiarity can make something more beautiful. 461 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 3: When you have been exposed to something, it becomes more 462 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 3: beautiful to a certain extent. 463 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: But the more we were exposed to something, the more 464 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: we grow to appreciate it. 465 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, the more we like it. 466 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 467 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 3: And these are mostly in psychology studies where they flash 468 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 3: things for people and then they ask them what they like, 469 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: and they've shown that the things that have been flashed, 470 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 3: that they've been exposed to more are more likely. 471 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: Oh, so we can influence what we find beautiful. I 472 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: just had some interesting thoughts because you know, I also 473 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: produce a television show, and so there's always questions about 474 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: representation and what we portray in the media. And then 475 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: you're seeing that a lot in advertisements today, different body types, 476 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: different skin tones. People are trying to change the standards 477 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: of beauty. 478 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 3: A lot of beauty is genetic or something that you 479 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 3: can't really change. But I think a lot of beauty 480 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 3: is what you can change, right, because it's just all 481 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 3: about efficiency and our brains are being tuned all the time. 482 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: We're receptive to having standards of beauty change. 483 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: I think so just by mere exposure, you can start 484 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,719 Speaker 3: to influence people's standards of beauty. 485 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: All right, I think that answers our question what makes 486 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: something beautiful? It's not skin deep. It's all in the 487 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: brain of the beholder. To close us off, I'm going 488 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: to let that Razidegi have the last word. 489 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: The majority of the anatomy of human beings is pretty 490 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: much similar. We are all the same. We all have 491 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: the major organs, we all have the liver, we all 492 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: have the lungs. I believe that every person is beautiful. 493 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: We just need to explore it and discover it. And 494 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: that is the beauty of the beauty concept. 495 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. See you next time you've been 496 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: listening to Science Stuff production I heard Ready Bring the 497 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: produced by me or Hm, credited by Rose Seguda, executive 498 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: producer Jerry Rowland, and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Pegram 499 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: And you can follow me on social media. Just search 500 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: for PhD Comics and the name of your favorite platform. 501 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to Sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, 502 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please 503 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: tell your friends. We'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.