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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A five year old little

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Speaker 1: girl on her way to school, walking alone, but school

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Speaker 1: was only a few blocks away. What could go wrong? Right?

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Speaker 1: A lot? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation in

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Speaker 1: series X one eleven. What happened to Anne? First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to this two days after she went missing,

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Speaker 1: two days and just two miles from her family's home,

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Speaker 1: FAM's little body was found, as fate would have it.

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Matthew Doza, who is helping lead this case, is

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Speaker 1: the son of one of the Army CID investigators who

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Speaker 1: stumbled on the child's body off of what is now

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Speaker 1: South Boundary Road that a couple of years ago. We

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Speaker 1: opened this case and we examined every single report, We

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Speaker 1: examined every item of evidence, and have since partnered with

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Speaker 1: the Audition Attorney's Office Cold Case Unit and they are

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Speaker 1: running with this case and falling up on every lead,

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Speaker 1: every piece of information, every bit of evidence. FAMS cases

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Speaker 1: one where looking at all the DNA can bring closure

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Speaker 1: and justice to victims families. Here we're just hearing our

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Speaker 1: Francy Kio N forty six. How can there be a

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Speaker 1: five year old little girl that goes missing, her body

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Speaker 1: found murdered as sex assaulted, and yet no arrest. Again,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: on Fox Nation in series one eleven with me and

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Speaker 1: all start panel to make sense of what we know

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Speaker 1: right now and the disappearance and death murder of a

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Speaker 1: five year old little girl walking to kindergarten. First of all,

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Speaker 1: to Scott Rights news writer anchor k io N forty six,

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Speaker 1: Scott five years old. I guess I should throw this

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Speaker 1: to our shrink, Karen Start. But to you, what horrible

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Speaker 1: devil walking amongst us would snatch a five year old

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Speaker 1: little girl? This is beautiful. She looks like a China

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Speaker 1: doll off the side of the street walking to school

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Speaker 1: on a rainy California morning. Murder her at sex assault her.

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Speaker 1: To tell me what happened that morning. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was just it was a regular morning walking to school,

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Speaker 1: Highland Elementary School and Seaside Seaside just just slightly north

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Speaker 1: of Monterey, California, and she wouldn't make it. And you

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Speaker 1: know it was the community at the time was shocked.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of news coverage on her. At

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Speaker 1: the time. Nancy. In fact, she's gorgeous. Chief Nick gorgeous

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Speaker 1: with the Seaside Police told me because it was dismal

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Speaker 1: as far as the news coverage, So I really didn't

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Speaker 1: get out there and that case went cold. No idea

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Speaker 1: what happened to little Antie fan walking to school and

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Speaker 1: just disappeared. Scott Race joining me Kio in forty six.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Seaside, California. Big town, small town, rural,

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Speaker 1: industrial tourist. What is it? It's just two miles north

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Speaker 1: of Monterey, California, about thirty three thousand people. That was

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Speaker 1: a population as of twenty twenty, just over thirty three

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Speaker 1: thousand people, mixed of people. These are These are working

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Speaker 1: class people. These are These are folks who work in

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Speaker 1: the area. It's not big on tourism like Monterrey would

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Speaker 1: be or Pebble Beach, but it's more than people who

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Speaker 1: live here that working class. Like I said, well, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you this, Scott Race. It's two point two

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Speaker 1: five miles away from Monterey and I just happened to

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Speaker 1: be familiar with that area. My sister lives in California

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Speaker 1: with her family, and I covered the Scott Peterson trial

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Speaker 1: and lived in Redwood City for so long. Just recently coincidental.

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Speaker 1: Scott rates my daughter out of the blue, said, what

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Speaker 1: is Carmel by the Sea? I said, sweetheart, that's where

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Speaker 1: your aunt lives out in that area, and that's where

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Speaker 1: we went during COVID because we didn't want to stay

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Speaker 1: in the hotel, we didn't want to fly, took an

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Speaker 1: RV and went to Carmel and Monterey and Monterey is

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Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen, Scott.

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Speaker 1: The water comes crashing in, there are sea otters, all

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Speaker 1: sorts of marine life. There is actually an old Franciscan

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Speaker 1: monk outpost that was one of the first outposts it was.

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Speaker 1: I guess the Spanish monks came and founded it to

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Speaker 1: serve the area. We went there. It's so beautiful. And

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Speaker 1: the point I'm making to you, Karen Stark, high profile

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Speaker 1: psychologist joining us out of New York, is that the

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Speaker 1: dichotomy of this beautiful, natural, serene setting and then knowing

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Speaker 1: a five year old little girl on our way to

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Speaker 1: kindergarten it's snatched off the side of the street, sex

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Speaker 1: assaulted and murdered. It somehow in my mind doesn't fit together.

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Speaker 1: Yet yet I know that it happens, unfortunately, want to

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Speaker 1: it happens a lot in the most ideaic settings and

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Speaker 1: in the worst settings. That had nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the fact that you had people out there, the pedophiles

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Speaker 1: who are searching for young children for a sexual purposes.

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Speaker 1: That appears to have been what happened in this case.

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Speaker 1: It's reality. That is the reality that we have to

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Speaker 1: contend with. In addition to Scott Rates, news director and anchor,

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Speaker 1: Kio n forty six and Karen Start psychologists joining us

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Speaker 1: out of New York with me is the founder and

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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We met in

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Speaker 1: the trenches fighting crime, Cheryl McCombs with me, Cheryl, I

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Speaker 1: think it's very probitive that she was sex assaulted, strangled,

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Speaker 1: then pulled out into the bushes hidden there. The person

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Speaker 1: took the time to hide her body, which is staging

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Speaker 1: and we'll have a lot to say about that. And

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Speaker 1: it was also at a now shuttered US Army post

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Speaker 1: Fort Ord correct and Nancy, you and I both know

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Speaker 1: perpetrators like this gold places they know that they're familiar with,

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Speaker 1: they know there's not going to be anybody on an

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Speaker 1: outpost there. They know that they're not marching or exercising there.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to run any kind of you daily

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Speaker 1: trainings there. So this person had knowledge of that base

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Speaker 1: and specifically the area where she was found. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of the fact that she had been pulled

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Speaker 1: in the bushes? Now, think about it, Sharan McCollum's Seaside

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Speaker 1: which was formerly east of Monterey now Seaside, very very

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Speaker 1: small population about thirty thousand people, not far from Monterey,

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Speaker 1: but still I would call it rural. How does that

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Speaker 1: play into it in your mind, scharl McCollum. Well, again,

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator selected this area. He selected where he placed her,

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Speaker 1: where he tried to hide her. This was his doing.

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Speaker 1: So he made every decision from who he snatched. So again,

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Speaker 1: given her age, the distance from her home to her school,

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Speaker 1: this was quick. This was somebody that was out hunting

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Speaker 1: and seize an opportunity when he saw this baby alone.

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Speaker 1: So again, when he attempted to hide her, it was

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Speaker 1: a location I believe he not only was familiar with,

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Speaker 1: but knew he would go unseen and had the time

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Speaker 1: to take to try to hide her. When we talked

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Speaker 1: to you about this, Cheryl McCollum and everybody, everybody in

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Speaker 1: our panel, feel free to jump in. This is not

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Speaker 1: a tea party at High Grove with the Queen. Okay, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: do you remember the case that you and I are

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Speaker 1: still working. It's coal case of Debbie Randall, a little

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Speaker 1: Georgia girl. She went I would say seven non seven,

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Speaker 1: maybe eight ten twelve ish. She went to the laundry

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Speaker 1: mat catty corner to where they lived and was collecting

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Speaker 1: you soap and playing with the doll. This is why

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Speaker 1: I'm getting at. She was horribly, horribly raped and murdered,

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Speaker 1: this little girl. But my point is where she was found.

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Speaker 1: Remember that like a rock quarry area and a rock gosh, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm a JD. I'm not a contractor, but where rocks

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Speaker 1: are processed to use in buildings. And her body was

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Speaker 1: ultimately found in woods by a volunteer near that rock

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Speaker 1: quarry and processing plant. And I've always said the two

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Speaker 1: are connected. Who would know to go to that rock

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Speaker 1: quarry processing plant late at night to murder a little

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Speaker 1: girl and dump her body somebody the same thing here,

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Speaker 1: the same thing, the same person that would know on

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Speaker 1: that army base they would be unseen and would have

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Speaker 1: the time to do to this little girl what he

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Speaker 1: wanted to do. They would not hear her scream, they

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Speaker 1: would not see his vehicle, they would not see him

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Speaker 1: pulling her out of the vehicle, of faulting her and

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Speaker 1: then leaving. So again, Nancy, you and I both know

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Speaker 1: when a child is taken those first three hours or

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Speaker 1: when they're most likely going to be killed. This is

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Speaker 1: this is a fast, horristic crime. But it's quick, it's

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Speaker 1: not It doesn't take two days. So again, this person

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Speaker 1: knew he could get in and out unseen, and you're

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Speaker 1: talking about in plain sight. So it's going to reduce

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Speaker 1: your suspect Poll time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I

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Speaker 1: know it's easy and maybe almost natural to blame the

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Speaker 1: parents for letting this little girl five years old walked

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Speaker 1: to kindergarten Scott Race. She was just five years old.

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Speaker 1: It had to be kindergarten right kindergarden. She was walking

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Speaker 1: to kindergarten Iland the elementary right and Scott Race. How

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Speaker 1: far from her home was it to the kindergarten. It

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Speaker 1: was under a mile. It was right there. It was

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Speaker 1: right around the corner. And obviously port Orton was not

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Speaker 1: that far either. And let me just say, Scott Race

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Speaker 1: our friends joining us from Kio, and he's been on

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Speaker 1: this case trying to help get it solved for so long. Scott,

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Speaker 1: I was a latchkey kid. My mom and dad left

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Speaker 1: before I even woke up in the morning, and we

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Speaker 1: walked home from school let ourselves in. If we couldn't

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Speaker 1: find the key, we had to pick the lock and

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Speaker 1: get in the house ourselves, or crawling a window. That

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Speaker 1: happened a couple of times. So you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna blame the parents, but it's easy to point the

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Speaker 1: finger at parents for letting a five year old little

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Speaker 1: girl walk alone to school. It brings to mind a

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Speaker 1: little boy now famous Aton Pats taking us and our

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Speaker 1: friends at CBS Warriors Before. Did Karen Start joining me

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Speaker 1: from Manhattan where the Aton Pat's case seemingly just took over, Cheryl.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't he the first child ever put on a milkbox? Yes? Absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Karen Start, that has been a cloud over New York

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Speaker 1: City forever. And remember, Karen, that was the first day

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Speaker 1: they had practiced and practice him walking to school in

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Speaker 1: New York City. It would be over my cold dead

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Speaker 1: body that I'd let the children go anywhere in New

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Speaker 1: York City, but right now with this crime wave, it's insane.

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Speaker 1: But they practiced and practice for him to walk a

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Speaker 1: couple of blocks. He wanted to be independent to school.

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Speaker 1: They let him do it. First day, as I recall,

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Speaker 1: he was kidnapped, sex tortured and murdered. That's correct. Fancy,

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Speaker 1: I'm watching those days. It was a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: And I remember, like dad, that I could walk to

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Speaker 1: school and come home to school by my stuff when

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Speaker 1: I was really young, growing up in New York, and

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Speaker 1: it used a different time. People were not aware if

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Speaker 1: they are now. There wasn't the same kind of media coverage. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Karen, start we keep saying it was

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Speaker 1: a different time. It was okay, then this little girl

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Speaker 1: we're talking about and saying, fam that was a long

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Speaker 1: time ago. Yeah, And bottom line, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: it is different. We took my brother or sister or

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Speaker 1: I would take the school bus to school because we

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Speaker 1: were the last pickup before the school, you know, less

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Speaker 1: than two miles to the school, and then we would

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Speaker 1: be the last to get dropped off, so we would

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Speaker 1: have been on the bus for like an hour. And

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Speaker 1: a half before we get home, so we would walk

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Speaker 1: home from school. We did that every day. We always

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Speaker 1: walked in the pack. All the neighbor children went to

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Speaker 1: the same public school, so there was safety in numbers.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to boy the parent. And let me tell

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Speaker 1: you something. Darryll Cohen. Daryl Cohen was a felony prosecutor

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Speaker 1: in the same office as I prosecuted. He is now

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Speaker 1: a high profile civil attorney and defense attorney. Darryl joining

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Speaker 1: us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You have seen my children.

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Speaker 1: There is no way in h e double l even

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Speaker 1: now that I would let my daughter go and walk

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Speaker 1: by herself. I pretend to let her, but I carefully

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Speaker 1: follow at a distance and a very You know if

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Speaker 1: you knew the maneuverings I go through trying to make

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Speaker 1: sure Lucy is safe without her knowing. Oh, dear Lord Daryl,

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Speaker 1: But I've got people like Anne in my mind, a

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Speaker 1: little five year old Anne, Nancy. I always have these

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Speaker 1: things in my mind. And as you know, I have

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Speaker 1: three daughters. They're all older now. The youngest is twenty.

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Speaker 1: But I am beautiful and one. I will work for

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Speaker 1: you for a while. And I tell I'm always never

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Speaker 1: by yourself, Always have your head on a swivel. Now, yes,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to blame these parents from so many years ago,

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Speaker 1: and in some ways they are culpable because they didn't

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Speaker 1: take care of their child the way they should have.

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Speaker 1: Five year old little girl. Oh, I would never another

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old of that. But having said that all

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Speaker 1: the time, all the time, you can't say that this

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Speaker 1: evil human being who did this to this child would

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Speaker 1: not have done it to someone else. Unfortunately, he found

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Speaker 1: a way to do it to her. You know, Daryl Cohen,

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Speaker 1: as I've always had to tell juries, you may resent

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Speaker 1: the parents for this, and they may be wrong, but

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Speaker 1: they're not the ones that rate and murdered a five

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Speaker 1: year old little girl then, who had hid her body

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Speaker 1: in the bushes to rot. That's the truth, guys. For

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Speaker 1: those of you just joining us, we're talking about I

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Speaker 1: mean a gorgeous little girl, five year old and saying

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Speaker 1: fam walks on a rainy California morning in January to

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Speaker 1: kindergarten and she has never seen alive again. Scott Ray's

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Speaker 1: joining me, Kio and forty six tell me how her

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Speaker 1: body was found. It was found two days later after

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Speaker 1: she was reported missing and it was found their right

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Speaker 1: near forward and uh, you know, talking to the police

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Speaker 1: seat there and see thought about it. She was strangled, murdered, raped.

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Speaker 1: It was just a horrific scene for the investigators at

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Speaker 1: the time. And it was right there near that for

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Speaker 1: ord base, that base since his closed closed in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four. But that's what investigators stumbled upon two days

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Speaker 1: after she was reported missing. Agency Dartner. Michelde pre joining

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Speaker 1: me forensic pathologist, former medical examiner and detective and she

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Speaker 1: is the author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide and importantly

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Speaker 1: Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide. Got to dupri thank you

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Speaker 1: as always for joining us. How can you look at

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Speaker 1: this child's body? And number one, till she was strangled.

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Speaker 1: We always examine the body for any type of injuries,

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Speaker 1: and so there may be actual physical marks around the neck.

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Speaker 1: And then of course when we do an autopsy examination,

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Speaker 1: we look at the soft tissue and when there is

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Speaker 1: blood in the soft tissue, that's where it shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: and that indicates enough pressure or strangulation to have caused

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Speaker 1: the blood to come out of the vessels into that

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Speaker 1: soft tissue around the neck, indicating strangulation. We also often

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Speaker 1: look at something called a highowoid bone, which is a

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Speaker 1: small bone in the neck but oftentimes is fractured or

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Speaker 1: broken when there is a strangulation, where exactly as the highoid,

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Speaker 1: the highwaid is right in the middle of your neck.

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Speaker 1: If you look at sort of your atoms apple, it's

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Speaker 1: very near there. It's a C shaped bone. It is

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Speaker 1: the only bone in the body that doesn't articulate or

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Speaker 1: that up against another bone. And it's very fragile. When

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Speaker 1: you say is very fragile, How would you describe it

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Speaker 1: if you looked at the hyoid bone? What does it

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Speaker 1: look like? And how delicate is it? It looks like

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Speaker 1: it's a C shaped sort of a backward C shape,

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Speaker 1: and it has two we call them horns or a

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Speaker 1: little separate pieces that are attached. It's squeezeable, you can

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Speaker 1: actually squeeze it. It's flexible, and so that when it's broken,

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Speaker 1: there was again significant pressure to break that bone because

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Speaker 1: it is a flexible bone. How delicate is it compared

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Speaker 1: to something? For me? What does it look like? Is

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Speaker 1: it the size of a drinking straw? Is it like

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Speaker 1: dental floss? I mean? How big is it a toothpick.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit larger than a toothpick, maybe two

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Speaker 1: toothpicks together or so, it's about that width, and again

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Speaker 1: about the size a little bit larger than a quarter

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Speaker 1: and a child this age. Okay, let me think, Let

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Speaker 1: me think, so, Cheryl, help me out. Here is the

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Speaker 1: size of the thickness of two toothpicks put together. It's

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Speaker 1: in the shape of a sea. But you also said backwards.

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Speaker 1: So the two prongs of the sea, doctor dupree, are

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Speaker 1: they facing your back or your front? Okay, so you've

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Speaker 1: got the two prongs of the sea, and you're saying

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Speaker 1: it's right behind, above or below the Adam's apple. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's right at the level about of the atoms apple.

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Speaker 1: Is it in front of the Adams apple or is

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Speaker 1: it behind the Adams apple? No, it's above it, a

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Speaker 1: bit a little bit above it. Right. So would you

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Speaker 1: be able to feel it if you were touching above

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Speaker 1: your atoms apple? No, you cannot feel it. Okay, why

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Speaker 1: is it there? I don't know the answer that question.

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Speaker 1: But what does it do? It doesn't really do anything,

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Speaker 1: but I know, but I can tell you this. I

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Speaker 1: know one thing it does. It tells me Sharyl McCollum

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Speaker 1: if somebody's been strangled, because if that delicate little highoid

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Speaker 1: bone it's fractured or broken, I know enough pressure was

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Speaker 1: put upon it, and we hear about it a lot.

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Speaker 1: Many people believe the highoid is down at the base

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Speaker 1: of your neck where a necklace would rest. It's not.

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Speaker 1: It's up higher. And the significance of that share why

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Speaker 1: that's so important to know where it is, is that

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Speaker 1: when you were strangled, that is where the finger marks

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Speaker 1: would be exactly right there. That's about where you're thumbed

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Speaker 1: going to hit so that bone, you know. Whereas it

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Speaker 1: may not serve a medical purpose that we know of,

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Speaker 1: it certainly serves a forensic one. And it's one of

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Speaker 1: the best indicators we have of somebody being strangled. Guys,

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Speaker 1: what happened to this little girl? Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: Any fam of Seaside was just five years old when

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Speaker 1: she disappeared on her way to school more than four

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Speaker 1: decades ago. You cannot find a case that's more traumatic

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Speaker 1: than this. We're talking about a five year old girl

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Speaker 1: who was walking to school to go to kindergarten. I

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Speaker 1: was kidnapped, specially assaulted and smothered to death and then

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Speaker 1: thrown on the side of the street in the former

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Speaker 1: four door property as though she was trashed. But then

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Speaker 1: as the years pass, the case goes cold. Even with

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Speaker 1: DNA from the perpetrator, DNA from the little girl, the

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Speaker 1: five year old girl, and doctor dupri how do you

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Speaker 1: extract the rapist, the murderer's DNA off the little girl's body.

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Speaker 1: We look at places where it's most likely to be.

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Speaker 1: We can also use something called an alternate light source

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Speaker 1: where different bodily fluids reflect at different collars, and we

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Speaker 1: know better swab, so we'll take a swab of that

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Speaker 1: material and run it for the DNA. Guys. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our cut one, our friend Veronica macsk io

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Speaker 1: n Well. Now to a story that has said in

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Speaker 1: so many for so many years. In the city of Seaside,

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Speaker 1: a family who fled Vietnam arrived a Seaside in the

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Speaker 1: mid seventies full of hope and new beginnings, only to

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Speaker 1: have their dreams shattered police. It's very unusual for a

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Speaker 1: child to be abducted and then nobody see anything. Forty

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Speaker 1: years later, investigators still have hope that someone can give

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Speaker 1: them that missing piece of information that will help solve this.

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Speaker 1: K Any Fam was described as a shy and very

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Speaker 1: responsible young girl. She dressed herself and was allowed to

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Speaker 1: walk to school three blocks away to Highland Elementary, all alone.

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Speaker 1: On the morning of January twenty first, nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: Seaside police say that Fam waited for the rain to

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Speaker 1: stop before heading out to school. The five year old

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Speaker 1: walked out her door here along Sonoma Avenue that day,

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Speaker 1: and it's believed that she was abducted somewhere near this

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Speaker 1: neighborhood market because she never made it to her school

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Speaker 1: just a few blocks up the road here, so something

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Speaker 1: very bad happened between her making a right turn from

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Speaker 1: her house on the way up the zover. But then

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Speaker 1: a major break in the case, to Scott Rice joining

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Speaker 1: me KO n forty six, the case was reopened. Why so,

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Speaker 1: the Monterey County District Attorney formed a new DNA task

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Speaker 1: force in twenty twenty, and that's when they started to

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Speaker 1: open up some of these cold cases. There's currently over

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Speaker 1: four hundred cold cases in Monterey County right now. They

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Speaker 1: started looking at all of them, including the case of

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Speaker 1: little Annie Fam, and that's something started to connect the

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Speaker 1: dots Bronkamasius. Our main anchor did that report, shedding new

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Speaker 1: light on it in January, and then that leads us

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Speaker 1: to where we are now with this major break in

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Speaker 1: the case. NA. So you guys start stirring it up

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Speaker 1: at kio N and then take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: cut six, our Frandfield all Ridge. Today we have justice

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Speaker 1: for this little girl. It's an incredible feeling. It's a

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Speaker 1: great day for Seaside, It's a great day for our county.

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Speaker 1: It's a great day for everyone. I mean, this little

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Speaker 1: girl finally has justice. She had no justice for forty

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Speaker 1: plus years and today she does. Case closed. Good job, guys,

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Speaker 1: investigators A Tata Warren for the news. Arrest that was

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday. He's now in custody in Nevada pending extradition

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Speaker 1: back to California. He charges one count of first degree

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Speaker 1: murder with allegations of kidnapping and lud X of a

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Speaker 1: child under fourteen. Now to special guests joining us. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Ed Green, the founder of Asked Your Forensics, professor of

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Speaker 1: Biomolectual or Engineering University, California, Santa Cruz. You can find

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Speaker 1: him at Astria Forensics dot com. Doctor Green no offense

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Speaker 1: to the other guests, but saving the best for a

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Speaker 1: last How was the case cracked? Well, we played a

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Speaker 1: part in that that I'm happy to discuss, but the

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Speaker 1: bigger role is the police work that was done, and

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Speaker 1: the detective Bill Clark who got us involved, was extremely instrumental.

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear about you know what we

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Speaker 1: did do and what we didn't do. And um, we

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Speaker 1: did some exciting DNA work that would love to describe

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Speaker 1: to you, but that is a small piece of the puzzle,

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Speaker 1: a little cog and a bigger machine, most of which

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Speaker 1: we don't see. We just do this. This new DNA

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Speaker 1: work can that as I understand it was able to

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Speaker 1: generate some leads and is some good evidence that helps

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Speaker 1: a jump start the case and ultimately identify a subject

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Speaker 1: that they feel pretty good about. And so that that's

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Speaker 1: the big story. The our involvement in this began when

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Speaker 1: m Detective Clark contacted us and said that they had

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Speaker 1: piece of evidence forensics evidence of a rootless hair. Our technology,

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Speaker 1: at astray of forensics, is new technology that can extract

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Speaker 1: DNA from rootless hair, which for a long time was

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Speaker 1: thought to not be a good source for DNA For

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Speaker 1: the miochondrial DNA. Well, that is the conventional wisdom that

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Speaker 1: one can only get mitochondrial DNA from rootless hair, and

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Speaker 1: it turns out in a bit of a giant face palm.

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Speaker 1: I guess for forensic science that there's plenty of nuclear

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Speaker 1: DNA in rootless hair. It's just that it exists in

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Speaker 1: fragments that are too short for the assay that is

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Speaker 1: commonly done in DNA based forensics, which is amplification of

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Speaker 1: codas markers or str markers. In the field of forensics, generally,

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Speaker 1: when someone says they made a DNA fingerprint or a

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Speaker 1: DNA profile or a genetic profile, what they mean is

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Speaker 1: they assayed these sixteen specific positions in the genome that

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Speaker 1: vary in their length, and then you can compare this

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Speaker 1: to the CODIS database of this specific genetic profile and

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Speaker 1: ask is there's somebody in this database or not? And

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Speaker 1: if there is, great, you've got your bad guy in

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Speaker 1: the case is over. And if not, you really didn't

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Speaker 1: learn anything other than your bad guys not in that database.

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Speaker 1: What we are doing now the DNA, the fragments that

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Speaker 1: are in rootless hair shafts, even as they sit on

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Speaker 1: your head right now they're too short, they're too small

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00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: to be useful for that assay. They can't be amplified.

428
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: The regions that that assay is looking for requires DNA

429
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: that's two hundred base pairs are so long, two hundred

430
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: stretches of ACGNT and the fragments that are in rootless

431
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: hair shafts are about fifty base pairs long. So all

432
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: the many times that this assay has been tried from

433
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: DNA extracted from rootless hair, you see nothing. The assay fails,

434
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: and the general conclusion has been that there's no DNA,

435
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: no nuclear DNA in rootless hair, and it's simply not true.

436
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: There is, it's just present and very short fragments. An

437
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: assay is just something that you would you would do,

438
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: a test that you would do, so you might have

439
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: an assay for strep throat, or an assay for you know,

440
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: cognitive ability, or an assay for any thing, a test

441
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: that you would do to measure something. The assay that

442
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: is normally done in DNA based forensics is this str

443
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 1: amplification to get a CODAS profile. So in this case,

444
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: to you, Cheryl McCollum, they did get a CODAS profile

445
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: based on the ACG and T and running the test

446
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: over and over and determined what Cheryl determined who's going

447
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: to be responsible for this case. So once they get

448
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: that profile and they run it more than once. Is

449
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: to show you know cousins, is to show you know

450
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: close relationships or that specific person. Here's a good example

451
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: that everybody can relate to the Golden State Killer, rapist

452
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: and killer Dangelo. Somehow the cops got DNA off one

453
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: of the bodies, and it's very difficult, like in a

454
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: case here with five year old Anne. Her body's been

455
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: laying out in the rain in the elements for several days,

456
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: but a great medical examer like you, doctor Dupree, managed

457
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: to get some DNA, some DNA probably left there like

458
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: sperm when he raped this little girl. Years later. They

459
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: use the technology that doctor ed Green is telling us about.

460
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: Asked your forensics specifically, and as in the Golden State

461
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: killer case, you don't get the actual person. You get

462
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: a family tree and then you start going down, down, down,

463
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: down down. Who related to this family tree lives in

464
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: the area, who was there at the time. Long story short.

465
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: Scott Rates, who was ultimately arrested in the murder of

466
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Anne They ultimately arrested Arena resident seventy year old man

467
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: John Leneux, and he had been on parole for crimes

468
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: against children and right now they're waiting to bring him

469
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: back to Monterey County to answer for the crime. Here wait,

470
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: he was already on parole for crimes against children. He

471
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: was Okay, what can you tell me about this guy, Scott.

472
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: We don't know much about him. We did talk to

473
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: him and who said that he was his brother yesterday

474
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: and this guy was very remorseful to the family and

475
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: to the friends into the community. But we don't know

476
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: much about him other than he's been living in Reno

477
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: and you know, he's on parole all these years. He's

478
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: been hiding and playing site time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,

479
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: how did it happen? In addition to awesome police work,

480
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: that doctor ed grain At asked your friends was so

481
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: kind enough to point out, you know, I really respect

482
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: that doctor not hogging all the credit and saying, look

483
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: what all the police did. When h you guys, ask

484
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: your forensics that manage to perform all these highly highly

485
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: innovative DNA testing. Nancy, you flatter me that this is

486
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, a very nice to hear, and we're very

487
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: proud of the technology. But the just to point out

488
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: what we do when we get this DNA out and

489
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: develop a genotype file similar to what you would get

490
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: from like twenty three and meter ancestry. The we then

491
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: hand that over to the police and they build out

492
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: the family trees and they do this investigative work to

493
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: develop suspects, and eventually they came with a suspect and

494
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: compelled to DNA sample, and we were able to compare

495
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: that then directly. So there are actually two stages. The

496
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: first stage is to find the relatives, find the cousins

497
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: and do the police work and the investigative work. And

498
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: then once they were able to find someone who they

499
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: know with evidence that I can't be privy to compeled

500
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: to DNA sample, we could then do another analysis, another

501
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: comparison now where we're not searching a database trying to

502
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: find relatives, but we're doing a direct comparive comparison. Now,

503
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: you said you compel a suspect, in other words, you

504
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: get a search warrant. And now under the constitution, Darryl Cohen,

505
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: a target a suspect cannot be forced to give a statement,

506
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: all right, or it's thrown out if they were forced,

507
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: if they weren't given their rights. But with a search warrant,

508
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: you can compel a target, a suspect to give DNA.

509
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: And it's very simple. You either give a sample or

510
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: you get a bugle swab which is a really long

511
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: que tip and think of a COVID test except in

512
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: your mouth, and you get saliva. That's the DNA right there.

513
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: So the state can compel, as doctor Green pointed out,

514
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: a defendant to submit to a DNA test and that

515
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: defendant is giving a statement against him or herself blah

516
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: blah blah, or the person, and that's say should be

517
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: blah blah blah nothing. That's exactly what it should be

518
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: if they're giving a DNA and it matches. And by

519
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: the way, what are the odds it's the wrong DNA?

520
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: I please, doctor ed Green, these numbers are like one

521
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: in four hundred billion that you have the wrong person.

522
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not going to happen, that's right, Well

523
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: higher than that. Please tell me and make sure that

524
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen hears this well. I've recently learned from Cohen

525
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: that DNA stands for does not apply, but that aside,

526
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: the match probabilities are very easy to calculate in this case,

527
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 1: and there are numbers that would make astronomer's blush. They're

528
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: in the hundreds of trillions, one in hundreds of trillions.

529
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: But what we're able to do is now compare at

530
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of positions across the genome, because with

531
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 1: this new technology, we're not just looking at codus markers

532
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: where the numbers were already astronomical. Give me a figure

533
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: like one in how many over one hundred trillion? Oh,

534
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: dear Lord in Heaven. Okay, Darrel Cohen, good luck arguing

535
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: DNA DEOXYI bony clay acid really stands for does not apply.

536
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: But I will tell you funny story. Cheryl mccolloughy may

537
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: have been in the courtroom when this happened. I can't remember.

538
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: I was trying one of my well, my very first

539
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: DNA case, because prior to this, I'd have to prove

540
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: ripe and murder without DNA. We didn't have it, So

541
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: I was all about DNA and I went to the

542
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: crime lab and insisted the scientist who gave me a

543
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: sideways Harry Eyeball look said it wasn't a good idea,

544
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: of course, any better. I insisted they bring the slide

545
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: of the DNA and show them to the jury. Cheryl,

546
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: it looked like a big poster of undeveloped film with

547
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: a lot of little dots on it. I took, well,

548
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: look at it. I'm like, thank you, and immediately took

549
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: it down and I'm like, please, jury, do not remember that,

550
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: because if you look at it, unless you know what

551
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: you're looking at, you know, think of an ultrasound or

552
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: a sonogram. Unless you know what you're looking at, it

553
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: just looks black. It's like a black screen with squiggles.

554
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: It means nothing, but to the trained eye, it means everything.

555
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about DNA's highly highly technical, and

556
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: you've got to have somebody like Ed Green to break

557
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: it down in a way that even I or a

558
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: jury could understand it. Right, you're right, Nancy, but let's

559
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: break it down even more. Oh, dear, go ahead. When

560
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: that comes back to a suspect, you can then place

561
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: that suspect in that area. You mayn't like an army

562
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 1: sargeant station at Fort Ord when Anne was murdered, order

563
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: like that sort of something like that. You got him

564
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: in the right age bracket. You got him in the

565
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,479
Speaker 1: right race. You've got him in in this case, he's

566
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: got a background in sexual assault. I mean, convicted child molester.

567
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: What the hey was he doing in the army? Can

568
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: somebody answer that? Hayden move and you got a conviction

569
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: for child molestation? And how did he get in the

570
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: army a convicted child molester out on parole stationed at

571
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: Fort Ord. Wow, I mean it's like taking out a

572
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: knee on sign. Arrest me, Cheryl. It's horrible, Nancy. But

573
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: again they did get him. He did twenty years in prison.

574
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: The sad thing is if he had been caught earlier,

575
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: that second you know crime that we know of WNA happened.

576
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Veronica mass at Kio

577
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: in forty six r cut four forty years ago, a

578
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: little girl disappeared on her way to school and she

579
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: was walking to kindergarten at Highland Elementary School. That was

580
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty two when she vanished. Her body, though,

581
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: was discovered at ford Ord, but her killer was never found.

582
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: Little Annie fam was described as a shy, sensitive girl.

583
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: She was so responsible that her mother allowed her to

584
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: walk to school alone. Her body was found two days

585
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: after she disappeared in the former Ford Ord area, and

586
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 1: investigators say she had been sexually assaulted and strangled to death.

587
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: The case was being investigated by Seaside PD and the

588
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: FBI when it went cold. However, new leaves have now

589
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: surfaced which led them to reopen this case. Seaside Police

590
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: are announcing a partnership with Monterey County District Attorney's Office

591
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: their Cold Case Task Force, So if anyone has information

592
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: that can help, you're asked to contact CSA police. It

593
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: was appeals like that one that led to the ultimate

594
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: arrest of this pos technical legal term Robert Leneux now

595
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: seventy then twenty nine. Turns out he was a sergeant

596
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: in the Army stationed at Fort Ord, whereas where five

597
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: year old little Anne's body was hidden at the time.

598
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: Now in retrospect, that looks like an easy, easy puzzle

599
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: to solve, but not always true. If it had not

600
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: been for that partnership you just heard our fens at

601
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: KIO and discussing this case would never have been solved.

602
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: And there's nothing more heartbreaking, Well, there are very few

603
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: things more heartbreaking, Karen start than a family who has

604
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: blamed themselves for forty years for them of their five

605
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: year old child, but now have at least an answer.

606
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: They have been Lenswer though though I'll never really get

607
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: over it, man suggest the us of the child to

608
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: begin with, and devastating something that it's always with you.

609
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: And then you think about the circumstances and the guilt

610
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: that they have for having allowed her to walk to school,

611
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: even though they're not to blame. I can't imagine that

612
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: this is something that they don't live with every day

613
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: to Scott Race, joining US News director and anchor Kio

614
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: n forty six, who played a really big role in

615
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: helping bring awareness to the mystery of five year old

616
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: and disappearance and murder. What next for this poc another

617
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: technical legal term, Robert LENEU. Next for him is to

618
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: come back here to Monterey County and the district attorney here,

619
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 1: the prosecutor, and she's you know, I've been talking to her,

620
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: Jenny Pacciani, and she says, you're going to prosecute to

621
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: the full extent and they're going to lay out all

622
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: the evidence. So that's that's what's next. It's going to

623
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: be a process and it's going to be You know

624
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: it's going to take some time, but that's the next

625
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: steps for for for the suspect her Fancy. You know,

626
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: many people would argue he's too old for the death penalty,

627
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: but isn't it also true conversely that five year old

628
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: Anne was too young for the death penalty. We waite

629
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: as justice and falls Fancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, Goodbye,

630
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: Frien