WEBVTT - A Conversation With Jeh Johnson 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:04.040 This is Latino USA, the radio journal of News and 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:09.280 Kurturre Latino US Latin Latino USA. I'm Maria Inojosa. We 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:13.040 bring you stories that are underreported but that mattered to you, 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.520 overlooked by the wrestler media, and while the country is 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:17.960 struggling to deal with these, we listen to the stories 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:21.919 of Black and Latino Studio United Latino Front, a cultural 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:27.480 renaissance organizing at the forefront of the movement. I'm Maria Inojosa. 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:33.919 Nose Bayan or La Latino Usa. Listener, Here's an episode 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:43.280 the Los Archivos from BrX Andduro Media. It's Latino USA. 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:48.960 I'm Maria Inojosa. Today a challenging conversation with former Secretary 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.080 of Homeland Security under Barack Obama, Jay Johnson. 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.040 We're in the middle of a crisis on our southern border, 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.440 the unprecedented surge of illegal migrants from Central America. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:10.399 In recent years, the US Mexico border and immigration policy 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.520 have been front and center in the public conversation. 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.520 We have an invasion of drugs, invasion of gangs, invasion 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.440 of people, and it's unacceptable. 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.919 But a humanitarian crisis at the border and the fierce 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:29.240 debate over the appropriate government response is nothing new. Jay 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.960 Johnson was the Secretary of Homeland Security during President Obama's 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:37.559 second term, from late twenty thirteen through twenty seventeen, when 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.640 tens of thousands of unaccompanied migrant children and families were 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.480 arriving at the border asking for asylum. 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:46.520 Were here to update you on the steps we are 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:52.040 taking to address the surge and unaccompanied children along our 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:53.560 nation southwest border. 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.600 As Secretary of Homeland Security, Johnson expanded the detention of 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.320 women and children seeking asylum by putting them into family 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:06.080 detention facilities. This expansion of family detention would become one 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:10.079 of the most controversial policies of the Obama administration. Secretary J. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.040 Johnson toward a temporary detention facility where currently four hundred 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.000 women and their children are Anna was. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.560 There, Well, really, he wants to send a message, primarily 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.120 to these immigrants and to the countries from which. 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:22.959 They are coming, that if you come here. 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.560 You will be detained and you will be deported. 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.520 J Johnson was criticized for what many saw as an 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.280 overly putative response to a humanitarian crisis. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.680 Obama had ordered Homeland Security Secretary J. Johnson to look 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.720 into ways he could take executive action to scale back deportations, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.399 after several rights groups dubbed him the deporter in chief. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.280 At the time, j Johnson said that he expected family 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.200 detention to be a determ for families considering migrating to 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:03.079 the US. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.720 And I agree with you, Congressman, that we have to 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:07.799 put in place, and I think we're doing this a 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:13.520 number of deterrent factors. Increased housing to detain parents, adults 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.440 who come to this country with their children, expedited removals. 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.680 Many have questioned the effectiveness of these deterrens in light 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.440 of the ongoing crisis at the border. Immigration is, of 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.600 course an issue that we've been covering here at Latino 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.920 USA for decades, So we had some pretty tough questions 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.280 for the former secretary. You have no second guesses? 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.280 Well, are there things that we could have done differently 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.880 now that I'm a lot smarter sitting here in midtown Manhattan, Yes, 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:43.960 of course, But what you know, I shouldn't have said 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.000 that because you're new. You're going to follow up good question. 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.440 In our conversation, we talk about his legacy and how 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.400 his policies may have had an impact in current immigration enforcement. 0:03:55.600 --> 0:04:01.400 Under Trump. Secretary Johnson, thank you so much for joining 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:02.760 us on LAT you know USA. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:04.680 Thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to our 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:11.600 discussion really absolutely. I love public radio. I even guest 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.880 DJ once a year for WBGO Newark. 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.160 So the thing that people didn't know about Secretary former 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.560 Secretary Department Film Land Security is that you are a 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:22.320 huge jazz and R and B official. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:24.279 People who listen to that station though. 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.919 That actually leads me to my first question, because you know, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.040 getting access to the head of the Department of Homeland 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:36.160 Security is not an easy task, and so why are 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:37.760 you being so open and accessible. 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:39.240 I'm going to be I'm going to tell you a 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.159 little secret. If you had approached me under the same 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:44.880 circumstances three years before, I would have given you the 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.880 same response. But over the last twenty six months since 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.360 leaving office, I have tried to speak out where I 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.080 think it is appropriate, where I have something to offer, 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.320 particularly around some of the issues that I know we're 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.280 going to discuss, because there's seems to be so few 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.960 people who are willing to try to talk common sense 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:12.159 around issues that are heavily politicized and heavily emotional. Everyone 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.400 seems to have gone to their extreme corners in a 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.480 lot of our public debate now, and so I've tried 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.240 to be a moderate voice who's had to assess some 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:23.719 of these problems from all sides. 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.240 So Jay Johnson is a black kid who grows up 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.800 in New York City, and I was like, I want 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.440 to know a little bit more about that kid. 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:38.080 Well, I was born September eleventh, nineteen fifty seven. No, 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.840 you're nine. Eleven oh one was my forty fourth birthday. 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.520 I was born here in New York, lived for the 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.520 first six years in Corona, Queens. Louis Armstrong lived around 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.520 the block. It was in the fifties sixties, really an 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:55.960 enclave for African Americans who had left Manhattan, who had 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:01.560 left uptown. When I was six, we moved state to Poughkeepsie, 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:05.840 New York, in the Hudson Valley, and coincidentally, when I 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.160 was in my thirties nineteen ninety four, I ended up 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.480 marrying the girl next door who grew up next door 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.760 to me in Poughkeepsie, New York. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.880 You go to Morehouse, tell me to House College. Why 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.000 was it important for you? Interesting question to Morehouse. 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.760 Interesting question is probably one of the most important turning 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.360 points of my life. As a black kid growing up 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:29.719 in a principally white community, I had very few role models. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:31.960 And I was a C and D student all through 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.560 high school. And when I went to Morehouse, it was 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.039 one of the few times in my life when I 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.960 said to myself, this feels immediately right to me. I 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.480 feel very much at home on the campus of Morehouse College. 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.440 So by sophomore year, I was a B student and 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.320 junior senior year, I was a straight A student, and 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.799 I was inspired entirely by my experience at Morehouse College. 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.680 So you become assistant United States Attorney in the Southern 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.320 District of New York. You then get involved with the 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:06.640 Clinton administration, then start working with the Obama administration as 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:11.000 General Counsel of the Department of Defense. So obviously you 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.400 were not surprised when you end up being named the 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.200 Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.440 I was surprised. I was stunned. What was your reaction 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.400 at that point, Well, I'll give you a little bit 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.520 of detail. I had left government and I was on 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.760 business in Hong Kong, and I received a phone call 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.720 from the Chief of Staff, Dennis McDonough, who said, Jay, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.480 the President would like you to be our next Secretary 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:42.239 of Homeland Security. And I was really surprised, and I said, Dennis, really, 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.360 am I qualified for that job? And you know he 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.840 gave the obvious answer, well, yeah, the President thinks you are. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.360 Isn't that enough? I served as Secretary of Homeland Security 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.760 for twenty four days and not one more and not 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:56.280 one more. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.720 So when you take over for Janet Napolitan, who the 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:05.320 outgoing Secretary of Homeland Security, you were taking over a 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.920 department that had a record number of people who were 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.680 being deported, double the number of people being prosecuted for 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.800 re entry, over two hundred thousand people in federal prison 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:22.520 just for crossing the border. So you were walking into 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.320 a real conundrum of problems in terms of immigration. So 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.280 what did you as the head of the Department of 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:33.760 Homeland Security, What did you want to do? What was 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.840 your sense of, like, well, this is my mission in 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:37.920 terms of immigration. 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:43.440 On immigration early twenty fourteen, there was a confluence of 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.199 what I would say were three events. One, we were 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.200 working with the Congress to try to get comprehensive immigration 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:57.200 reform passed. Second, we had the spike in migration from 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:02.520 Central America in early twenty fourteen, spring twenty fourteen, early 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:07.240 summer twenty fourteen. Third, as you will recall, President Obama 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.800 was being heavily criticized for being the so called deporter 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:16.520 in chief because of the numbers of deportations, and that 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.920 I know that that heard him, that stung him. And 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.920 I recalled a meeting in March twenty fourteen with a 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.199 group of people who were it was. It was an 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:31.800 intense discussion and. 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:32.840 What was the president saint? 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:33.160 What was? 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.240 And you say he was stung by being called the 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:36.040 deporter in chief. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.079 He had recited all of the things that we were 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.640 trying to do to achieve comprehensive immigration reform that he 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.760 had the gun Dhaka in twenty twelve, and we wanted 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:50.600 to see path the citizenship codified into law. But nevertheless, 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.160 we walked away from the meeting with a direction to 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:59.600 me to make our system of immigration enforcement more humane. 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.080 So let's talk about twenty fourteen. When did you become 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:10.400 aware of the fact that children without their parents were 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:11.600 coming to the United. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.560 States Mother's Day, May eleven, twenty fourteen. I had been 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:20.600 hearing reports of unaccompanied kids entering our country. I had 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.840 been watching the numbers rise in the course of my 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:29.120 first few months in office, and in May twenty fourteen, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.319 I was told it has reached crisis proportions and we 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.440 went to McCallum. We went to the Border Patrol holding 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:43.920 station there and it was flooded. And my first reaction, frankly, 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:48.520 was a humanitarian reaction. And I'll never forget this. One 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.880 little girl, she was probably eight nine years old, sitting 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.880 at the desk being processed by a Border Patrol agent. 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:01.040 She was all by herself, and through I asked her, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.800 where's your mother? Mother's Day? Where's your mother? And she said, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:09.680 I am trying to find my mother here in the 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.640 United States. I left I think she said Guatemala or Honduras, 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.760 to find my mother here in the United States. And 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.839 when she said that, I started to cry. The translator 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:24.920 started to cry, and the little girl started to cry, 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.920 and that was for me a transformational moment. 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.360 Coming up on Latino USA, we continue talking about the 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.800 crisis at the border family separation, and our conversation gets tense. 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.120 Secretary Johnson, have you ever thought about apologizing for your 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:53.000 role in kind of creating the immigration detention problems situation 0:11:53.240 --> 0:12:52.880 crisis that we have now no stay with us. Hey, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.240 we're back and we're talking today with former Secretary of 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:03.480 Homeland Security under President Barack Obama, Jay Johnson. In twenty twelve, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.680 the number of unaccompanied miners arriving at the southern border 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.880 started to grow, but in twenty fourteen, the Obama administration 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.320 was unprepared for a sudden increase in these arrivals. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.720 Our message absolutely is don't send your children unaccompanied on 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.920 trains or through a bunch of smugglers. We don't even 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:25.839 know how many of these kids don't make it. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.880 More than sixty eight thousand miners were apprehended between twenty 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.120 thirteen and twenty fourteen. In this second part of our 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.120 interview with Jay Johnson, we talk about the way his 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.760 administration responded to the crisis. We also talk about his 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:45.200 department's policies on deporting undocumented immigrants. Obama's promise was to 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.720 focus on criminals, but data from ICE, Immigration and Customs 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:55.079 Enforcement shows these deportations targeted immigrants whose only crime was 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.640 illegal entry into the United States or cases of fraud, 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:08.000 including possessing false immigration documents. We're going to pick up 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:14.400 the conversation now, so with this influx of families and 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.520 children coming without their parents over the border. You know, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.600 you say that your approach was humanitarian, You in fact 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.080 decide to expand family detention. Before twenty fourteen, there was 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:31.120 only one detention facility that housed families, that was Berks 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:36.480 in Pennsylvania. You open up three other detention facilities that 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:41.000 are aimed at holding families. So why did you decide 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:42.560 to do that and how do you look back on 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:43.400 that decision now? 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:49.760 So our response to any situation like this has to 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:54.240 have a humanitarian component to it. We should hope to 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.760 treat others as we would want to be treated ourselves. 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.880 The other aspect of that is is we have sovereign borders. 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.240 Our borders are not open. There are laws to enforce. 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:13.080 When you have border patrol infrastructure built to accommodate a 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.080 population of x and it ends up being x times four, 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.480 the conditions are not going to be optimal. I was 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:26.640 surprised to find out that in twenty fourteen we had 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.280 immigration beds for thirty four thousand people, only ninety five 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.440 of which were equipped for family units. This was a 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.960 new demographic, new phenomenon because for a very very long time, 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:44.280 the prototypical migrant on the southern border was a single 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:48.160 adult from Mexico, usually a male, and the demographic had 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:53.560 totally changed, and so we simply could not have a 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.280 system of catch and release. Some people listening to this 0:15:58.360 --> 0:15:59.960 may not welcome that information. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:01.920 I think many people might not like that term. 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.600 But you know, because we cannot have a system of 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:04.960 catch and. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.520 Release, right people say, well, they're not animals. 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.800 You just can't have a system of catching release. The 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.000 message and goes out that essentially our borders are open. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.160 Family detention was not popular in a lot of quarters. 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:23.760 I was acutely aware of that and always asking our people, Hey, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.360 are we doing this the right way? Is there an alternative? 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.400 Can you tell me where you understand the humaneness that 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.200 you wanted to achieve in your policy, How you were 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:40.400 perceiving that holding families who had essentially were not criminals 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.360 in any way, shape or form crossing a border, how 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.680 that reflects the humanity that you wanted to with them. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:54.160 Exceptions. Fundamentally, people migrants desperate too for a better life 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.200 coming from Central America are not They're not criminals, So 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.080 then why there are people desperate Because we don't have 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.120 open borders. We don't have catch and release. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.320 So you said that the idea of family detention should 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:11.600 be seen in fact as a deterrent for other mothers 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.399 and children to not cross the border. Do you think, though, that, 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.560 in fact it ended up paving the way for what 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.560 became Trump's zero tolerance policy Families cannot be held. 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.280 I would disagree with that. That was the Trump administration's 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.320 own idea, independent of anything we did. The principal reason 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.399 for expanding our detention capability is simply because the numbers 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.960 were rising and we had to have some idea of 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.399 who was entering our country and there were some people 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.040 who were appropriate to be detained. Did that serve as 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:46.679 a deterrent? I think the answer in retrospect is definitely yes. Now, 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.280 the Trump administration decided to go down this road of 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.720 a zero tolerance policy that they were never going to 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:58.760 be able to fulfill because you simply don't have the 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.200 infrastructure or the detention space to hold all these people. 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.119 So, J Johnson, citizen, what do you think is the 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.720 intention behind Donald Trump's zero tolerance policy in terms of 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.000 immigrants and immigration? 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.840 And well, you'll have to ask Donald Trump. 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.520 And John citizen. As you're kind of looking at this 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:21.040 having been on the inside. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.199 Okay, so it's a very good discussion. Having owned this 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:29.000 problem for three years, I know a couple of lessons. One, 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:34.520 real and perceived changes in enforcement policy have the effect 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:40.800 of causing downturns in illegal immigration. But and here's the 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:45.520 big butt, Maria, But so long as the underlying conditions, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:50.959 that underlying push factors in Central America persist, the overall 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:52.560 pattern is always going to revert back. 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.160 So Secretary, I don't know. I mean, when I think 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.960 about my experience of covering immigration and meeting Central America 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.920 and migrants, you know, most people really do not want 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.560 to leave. And I have yet to find any migrant 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.960 who is telling me oh, I was checking my phone 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:12.920 to find out what the policy was in the United 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:14.920 States in order to determine when I was going to leave. 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:21.360 Usually it's an extraordinary crisis that lends someone to make 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.239 this kind of a decision. So the notion of we 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:29.440 couldn't appear to be open borders if we registered people 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.399 who were coming in and then said okay, well we 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.000 want you to come back and show up. I mean, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.040 I just find it very interesting, you know that actually 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:41.320 immigrants appear to their court cases overwhelmingly. So I don't 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.880 understand why if you wanted to have a humanitarian response 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.440 that you didn't in fact take the political blowback and 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.440 just say, these are human beings. They are not coming 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.119 to overrun the country. We're going to process them, and 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.720 we're going to release them because we understand that they 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.440 no threat. But your administration that. 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.640 Well, here's the reality. Everyone wants a black or white answer. 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.600 Either detain everyone or detain no one. It's not that simple, 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:19.080 and people are very mindful of because the coyotes, the 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:23.600 smugglers will publicize this and encourage this. What will happen 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.800 when I get here? Will I be detained? Will I 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:32.000 be released? And so if we were to say, if 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.199 we were to declare publicly, if you come here, you 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.520 will be arrested, processed, and then released. And that's the 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.840 policy of the United States, you're just encouraging more illegal migration. 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.760 I mean a lot of people. Yes, really, I just absolutely. 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.280 I know people don't want to hear that, Maria, but 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.360 well that that is in fact the case. Migrants are 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:58.000 very sensitive to our enforcement policies and perceive changes in it. 0:20:58.680 --> 0:20:59.760 They pay a difference to that. 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:03.320 I just think that most migrants are. It's a very 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.800 complicated situation. And in fact, recently I was on the border. 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:10.840 We were in Brownsville, we were in McCallan, and then 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.679 we crossed over into Matamoros and spoke with some of 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.600 the people who were waiting to cross over. Let's let's 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:18.520 just take a listen to this. 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:29.040 Why did you live on Duras Jodsa. 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.919 He told me that he left on Dudas because his 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.720 daughter had been raped, that his house had been burned down, 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.439 and that they were now living on the street, and 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:40.480 that he never thought he would be in this situation 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.840 with people treating him poorly, just because he was a 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:48.040 desperate migrant. And then he was holding back his tears 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.000 and he said to me, we came in search of protection. 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.359 And then he said to the US government, if you 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.919 hear this, have mercy. We didn't come because we wanted 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:58.359 to come. 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:06.800 Filicojo thing up Nome. 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.760 So that kind of falls in the face of what 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:13.000 you're saying, which has. 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.959 Had that conversation with hundreds of migrants on the border 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:18.680 after they're apprehended. I always ask why did you come here? 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.840 I always want to hear their stories, and first and 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.199 foremost the reason people leave Central America. Are the conditions 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.280 that we just heard. No one's questioning that it's a 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:33.640 powerful reason why people flee, and many people qualify for asylum, 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:34.359 but a lot don't. 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.920 Secretary, what is it like when you hear the criticism 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:44.280 that that actually the Obama administration, the country's first black president, 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:50.320 actually laid the seeds in terms of what people call 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:55.520 the immigration, detension, deportation mass industrial complex. That, yes, it's 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.960 It didn't start under Obama, didn't start under George W. 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:01.680 It started under Bill k actually with the nineteen ninety 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.439 six laws. But that what the Obama administration did was 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.720 actually to put down the railings for the trains of 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.000 the deportation machinery to start running. 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:20.320 Well, the high for illegal migration on our southern border 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:26.919 was the year two thousand, nineteen years ago, and it 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:29.280 is now a fraction of what it used to be. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.280 The year two thousand was when Bill Clinton was president. 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:33.320 It's now a fraction of what it used to be, 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:37.640 although today as we speak, it's becoming an increasingly large fraction. 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:41.880 Highest we've seen in twelve years. Do I have any 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:47.280 second guesses or about the investments that our government has 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:50.119 made over the last nineteen years in security in our 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:51.639 southern border. No, I do not. 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:53.840 You have no second guesses? 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:57.080 Well, no, do I regret that we've made the investments 0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:57.600 we've made? 0:23:57.760 --> 0:23:57.840 No? 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.760 Are there things that we could have done differently now 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.360 that I'm a lot smarter sitting here in midtown Manhattan, Yes, 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:04.800 of course. 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:10.240 But what well, when you sit and you say regrets, well. 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.240 They're always you know, I shouldn't have said that because 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:13.920 you're new, You're going to follow up good question. 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.280 Well, it means. What it means to me, Secretary, is 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.359 that when you're alone in your midtown office or you 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.280 know whatever, that you are in fact sitting here saying 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:25.400 whoa what happened here? 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.879 No, it's not quite that way, Maria. No, it's are 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:31.960 there things that I would do differently with the benefit 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:37.480 of hindsight when it comes to our immigration mission, our 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.840 cybersecurity mission, our counter terrorism mission with the benefit of hindsight? Yes, 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:46.040 of course, But we're always smarter in retrospect. I hope 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:49.480 this administration learns some lessons from its own experiences, because 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:54.240 it clearly has not learned many lessons from history from 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:56.040 prior administrations. 0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:01.000 So seeing how President Trump has enacted his immigran policies, 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:04.240 essentially making it the centerpiece of his campaign now his 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.879 reelection campaign. Do you think that things would be different 0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:13.000 today if the Obama administration in fact had passed immigration reform. 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:15.800 We came very close in the House to passing comprehensive 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:20.640 immigration reform and it did not happen. So by fall 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:24.600 of twenty fourteen, at the direction of the President, we 0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:29.520 launched a series of executive actions to do the best 0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:33.480 we could to reform our immigration system, which included a 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:38.919 doc A like program for parents of US citizens lawful 0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:41.080 permanent residents who had been in this country a number 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:44.560 of years. One of the other executive actions we launched, 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:48.640 which I'm proud of, is we asked our immigration enforcement 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:54.400 personnel to focus more sharply on the criminals, and they did. 0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:58.720 You will admit, though, that many of the criminals who 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:01.399 are considered criminals people who have just committed fraud. 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:06.440 Well, the priorities in the policy we released in November 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:12.440 twenty fourteen focused most sharply on convicted felons, not people 0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:15.520