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Speaker 1: This is Latino USA, the radio journal of News and

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Speaker 1: Kurturre Latino US Latin Latino USA. I'm Maria Inojosa. We

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Speaker 1: bring you stories that are underreported but that mattered to you,

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Speaker 1: overlooked by the wrestler media, and while the country is

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Speaker 1: struggling to deal with these, we listen to the stories

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Speaker 1: of Black and Latino Studio United Latino Front, a cultural

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Speaker 1: renaissance organizing at the forefront of the movement. I'm Maria Inojosa.

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Speaker 1: Nose Bayan or La Latino Usa. Listener, Here's an episode

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Speaker 1: the Los Archivos from BrX Andduro Media. It's Latino USA.

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Speaker 1: I'm Maria Inojosa. Today a challenging conversation with former Secretary

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Speaker 1: of Homeland Security under Barack Obama, Jay Johnson.

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Speaker 2: We're in the middle of a crisis on our southern border,

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Speaker 2: the unprecedented surge of illegal migrants from Central America.

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Speaker 1: In recent years, the US Mexico border and immigration policy

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Speaker 1: have been front and center in the public conversation.

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Speaker 3: We have an invasion of drugs, invasion of gangs, invasion

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Speaker 3: of people, and it's unacceptable.

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Speaker 1: But a humanitarian crisis at the border and the fierce

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Speaker 1: debate over the appropriate government response is nothing new. Jay

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Speaker 1: Johnson was the Secretary of Homeland Security during President Obama's

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Speaker 1: second term, from late twenty thirteen through twenty seventeen, when

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands of unaccompanied migrant children and families were

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Speaker 1: arriving at the border asking for asylum.

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Speaker 2: Were here to update you on the steps we are

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Speaker 2: taking to address the surge and unaccompanied children along our

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Speaker 2: nation southwest border.

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Speaker 1: As Secretary of Homeland Security, Johnson expanded the detention of

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Speaker 1: women and children seeking asylum by putting them into family

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Speaker 1: detention facilities. This expansion of family detention would become one

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Speaker 1: of the most controversial policies of the Obama administration. Secretary J.

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Speaker 1: Johnson toward a temporary detention facility where currently four hundred

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Speaker 1: women and their children are Anna was.

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Speaker 4: There, Well, really, he wants to send a message, primarily

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Speaker 4: to these immigrants and to the countries from which.

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Speaker 1: They are coming, that if you come here.

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Speaker 3: You will be detained and you will be deported.

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Speaker 1: J Johnson was criticized for what many saw as an

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Speaker 1: overly putative response to a humanitarian crisis.

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Speaker 5: Obama had ordered Homeland Security Secretary J. Johnson to look

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Speaker 5: into ways he could take executive action to scale back deportations,

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Speaker 5: after several rights groups dubbed him the deporter in chief.

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Speaker 1: At the time, j Johnson said that he expected family

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Speaker 1: detention to be a determ for families considering migrating to

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Speaker 1: the US.

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Speaker 2: And I agree with you, Congressman, that we have to

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Speaker 2: put in place, and I think we're doing this a

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Speaker 2: number of deterrent factors. Increased housing to detain parents, adults

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Speaker 2: who come to this country with their children, expedited removals.

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Speaker 1: Many have questioned the effectiveness of these deterrens in light

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Speaker 1: of the ongoing crisis at the border. Immigration is, of

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Speaker 1: course an issue that we've been covering here at Latino

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Speaker 1: USA for decades, So we had some pretty tough questions

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Speaker 1: for the former secretary. You have no second guesses?

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Speaker 2: Well, are there things that we could have done differently

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Speaker 2: now that I'm a lot smarter sitting here in midtown Manhattan, Yes,

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Speaker 2: of course, But what you know, I shouldn't have said

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Speaker 2: that because you're new. You're going to follow up good question.

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Speaker 1: In our conversation, we talk about his legacy and how

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Speaker 1: his policies may have had an impact in current immigration enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Under Trump. Secretary Johnson, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us on LAT you know USA.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to our

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Speaker 2: discussion really absolutely. I love public radio. I even guest

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Speaker 2: DJ once a year for WBGO Newark.

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Speaker 1: So the thing that people didn't know about Secretary former

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Speaker 1: Secretary Department Film Land Security is that you are a

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Speaker 1: huge jazz and R and B official.

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Speaker 2: People who listen to that station though.

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Speaker 1: That actually leads me to my first question, because you know,

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Speaker 1: getting access to the head of the Department of Homeland

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Speaker 1: Security is not an easy task, and so why are

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Speaker 1: you being so open and accessible.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be I'm going to tell you a

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Speaker 2: little secret. If you had approached me under the same

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Speaker 2: circumstances three years before, I would have given you the

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Speaker 2: same response. But over the last twenty six months since

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Speaker 2: leaving office, I have tried to speak out where I

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Speaker 2: think it is appropriate, where I have something to offer,

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Speaker 2: particularly around some of the issues that I know we're

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Speaker 2: going to discuss, because there's seems to be so few

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Speaker 2: people who are willing to try to talk common sense

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Speaker 2: around issues that are heavily politicized and heavily emotional. Everyone

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Speaker 2: seems to have gone to their extreme corners in a

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Speaker 2: lot of our public debate now, and so I've tried

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Speaker 2: to be a moderate voice who's had to assess some

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Speaker 2: of these problems from all sides.

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Speaker 1: So Jay Johnson is a black kid who grows up

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Speaker 1: in New York City, and I was like, I want

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Speaker 1: to know a little bit more about that kid.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was born September eleventh, nineteen fifty seven. No,

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Speaker 2: you're nine. Eleven oh one was my forty fourth birthday.

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Speaker 2: I was born here in New York, lived for the

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Speaker 2: first six years in Corona, Queens. Louis Armstrong lived around

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Speaker 2: the block. It was in the fifties sixties, really an

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Speaker 2: enclave for African Americans who had left Manhattan, who had

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Speaker 2: left uptown. When I was six, we moved state to Poughkeepsie,

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Speaker 2: New York, in the Hudson Valley, and coincidentally, when I

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Speaker 2: was in my thirties nineteen ninety four, I ended up

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Speaker 2: marrying the girl next door who grew up next door

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Speaker 2: to me in Poughkeepsie, New York.

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Speaker 1: You go to Morehouse, tell me to House College. Why

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Speaker 1: was it important for you? Interesting question to Morehouse.

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Speaker 2: Interesting question is probably one of the most important turning

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Speaker 2: points of my life. As a black kid growing up

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Speaker 2: in a principally white community, I had very few role models.

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Speaker 2: And I was a C and D student all through

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Speaker 2: high school. And when I went to Morehouse, it was

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Speaker 2: one of the few times in my life when I

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Speaker 2: said to myself, this feels immediately right to me. I

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Speaker 2: feel very much at home on the campus of Morehouse College.

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Speaker 2: So by sophomore year, I was a B student and

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Speaker 2: junior senior year, I was a straight A student, and

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Speaker 2: I was inspired entirely by my experience at Morehouse College.

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Speaker 1: So you become assistant United States Attorney in the Southern

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Speaker 1: District of New York. You then get involved with the

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Speaker 1: Clinton administration, then start working with the Obama administration as

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Speaker 1: General Counsel of the Department of Defense. So obviously you

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Speaker 1: were not surprised when you end up being named the

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Speaker 1: Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.

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Speaker 2: I was surprised. I was stunned. What was your reaction

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Speaker 2: at that point, Well, I'll give you a little bit

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Speaker 2: of detail. I had left government and I was on

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Speaker 2: business in Hong Kong, and I received a phone call

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Speaker 2: from the Chief of Staff, Dennis McDonough, who said, Jay,

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Speaker 2: the President would like you to be our next Secretary

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Speaker 2: of Homeland Security. And I was really surprised, and I said, Dennis, really,

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Speaker 2: am I qualified for that job? And you know he

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Speaker 2: gave the obvious answer, well, yeah, the President thinks you are.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that enough? I served as Secretary of Homeland Security

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Speaker 2: for twenty four days and not one more and not

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Speaker 2: one more.

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Speaker 1: So when you take over for Janet Napolitan, who the

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Speaker 1: outgoing Secretary of Homeland Security, you were taking over a

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Speaker 1: department that had a record number of people who were

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Speaker 1: being deported, double the number of people being prosecuted for

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Speaker 1: re entry, over two hundred thousand people in federal prison

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Speaker 1: just for crossing the border. So you were walking into

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Speaker 1: a real conundrum of problems in terms of immigration. So

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Speaker 1: what did you as the head of the Department of

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security, What did you want to do? What was

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Speaker 1: your sense of, like, well, this is my mission in

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Speaker 1: terms of immigration.

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Speaker 2: On immigration early twenty fourteen, there was a confluence of

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Speaker 2: what I would say were three events. One, we were

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Speaker 2: working with the Congress to try to get comprehensive immigration

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Speaker 2: reform passed. Second, we had the spike in migration from

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Speaker 2: Central America in early twenty fourteen, spring twenty fourteen, early

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Speaker 2: summer twenty fourteen. Third, as you will recall, President Obama

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Speaker 2: was being heavily criticized for being the so called deporter

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Speaker 2: in chief because of the numbers of deportations, and that

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Speaker 2: I know that that heard him, that stung him. And

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Speaker 2: I recalled a meeting in March twenty fourteen with a

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Speaker 2: group of people who were it was. It was an

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Speaker 2: intense discussion and.

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Speaker 1: What was the president saint?

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Speaker 2: What was?

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Speaker 1: And you say he was stung by being called the

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Speaker 1: deporter in chief.

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Speaker 2: He had recited all of the things that we were

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Speaker 2: trying to do to achieve comprehensive immigration reform that he

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Speaker 2: had the gun Dhaka in twenty twelve, and we wanted

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Speaker 2: to see path the citizenship codified into law. But nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: we walked away from the meeting with a direction to

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Speaker 2: me to make our system of immigration enforcement more humane.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about twenty fourteen. When did you become

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Speaker 1: aware of the fact that children without their parents were

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Speaker 1: coming to the United.

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Speaker 2: States Mother's Day, May eleven, twenty fourteen. I had been

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Speaker 2: hearing reports of unaccompanied kids entering our country. I had

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Speaker 2: been watching the numbers rise in the course of my

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Speaker 2: first few months in office, and in May twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 2: I was told it has reached crisis proportions and we

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Speaker 2: went to McCallum. We went to the Border Patrol holding

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Speaker 2: station there and it was flooded. And my first reaction, frankly,

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Speaker 2: was a humanitarian reaction. And I'll never forget this. One

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Speaker 2: little girl, she was probably eight nine years old, sitting

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Speaker 2: at the desk being processed by a Border Patrol agent.

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Speaker 2: She was all by herself, and through I asked her,

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Speaker 2: where's your mother? Mother's Day? Where's your mother? And she said,

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Speaker 2: I am trying to find my mother here in the

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Speaker 2: United States. I left I think she said Guatemala or Honduras,

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Speaker 2: to find my mother here in the United States. And

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Speaker 2: when she said that, I started to cry. The translator

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Speaker 2: started to cry, and the little girl started to cry,

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Speaker 2: and that was for me a transformational moment.

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Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino USA, we continue talking about the

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Speaker 1: crisis at the border family separation, and our conversation gets tense.

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Speaker 1: Secretary Johnson, have you ever thought about apologizing for your

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Speaker 1: role in kind of creating the immigration detention problems situation

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Speaker 1: crisis that we have now no stay with us. Hey,

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Speaker 1: we're back and we're talking today with former Secretary of

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security under President Barack Obama, Jay Johnson. In twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: the number of unaccompanied miners arriving at the southern border

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Speaker 1: started to grow, but in twenty fourteen, the Obama administration

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Speaker 1: was unprepared for a sudden increase in these arrivals.

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Speaker 4: Our message absolutely is don't send your children unaccompanied on

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Speaker 4: trains or through a bunch of smugglers. We don't even

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Speaker 4: know how many of these kids don't make it.

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Speaker 1: More than sixty eight thousand miners were apprehended between twenty

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Speaker 1: thirteen and twenty fourteen. In this second part of our

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Speaker 1: interview with Jay Johnson, we talk about the way his

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Speaker 1: administration responded to the crisis. We also talk about his

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Speaker 1: department's policies on deporting undocumented immigrants. Obama's promise was to

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Speaker 1: focus on criminals, but data from ICE, Immigration and Customs

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Speaker 1: Enforcement shows these deportations targeted immigrants whose only crime was

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Speaker 1: illegal entry into the United States or cases of fraud,

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Speaker 1: including possessing false immigration documents. We're going to pick up

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Speaker 1: the conversation now, so with this influx of families and

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Speaker 1: children coming without their parents over the border. You know,

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Speaker 1: you say that your approach was humanitarian, You in fact

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Speaker 1: decide to expand family detention. Before twenty fourteen, there was

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Speaker 1: only one detention facility that housed families, that was Berks

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. You open up three other detention facilities that

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Speaker 1: are aimed at holding families. So why did you decide

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Speaker 1: to do that and how do you look back on

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Speaker 1: that decision now?

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Speaker 2: So our response to any situation like this has to

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Speaker 2: have a humanitarian component to it. We should hope to

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Speaker 2: treat others as we would want to be treated ourselves.

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Speaker 2: The other aspect of that is is we have sovereign borders.

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Speaker 2: Our borders are not open. There are laws to enforce.

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Speaker 2: When you have border patrol infrastructure built to accommodate a

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Speaker 2: population of x and it ends up being x times four,

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Speaker 2: the conditions are not going to be optimal. I was

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Speaker 2: surprised to find out that in twenty fourteen we had

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Speaker 2: immigration beds for thirty four thousand people, only ninety five

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Speaker 2: of which were equipped for family units. This was a

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Speaker 2: new demographic, new phenomenon because for a very very long time,

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Speaker 2: the prototypical migrant on the southern border was a single

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Speaker 2: adult from Mexico, usually a male, and the demographic had

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Speaker 2: totally changed, and so we simply could not have a

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Speaker 2: system of catch and release. Some people listening to this

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Speaker 2: may not welcome that information.

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Speaker 1: I think many people might not like that term.

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Speaker 2: But you know, because we cannot have a system of

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Speaker 2: catch and.

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Speaker 1: Release, right people say, well, they're not animals.

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Speaker 2: You just can't have a system of catching release. The

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Speaker 2: message and goes out that essentially our borders are open.

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Speaker 2: Family detention was not popular in a lot of quarters.

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Speaker 2: I was acutely aware of that and always asking our people, Hey,

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Speaker 2: are we doing this the right way? Is there an alternative?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me where you understand the humaneness that

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Speaker 1: you wanted to achieve in your policy, How you were

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Speaker 1: perceiving that holding families who had essentially were not criminals

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Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form crossing a border, how

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Speaker 1: that reflects the humanity that you wanted to with them.

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Speaker 2: Exceptions. Fundamentally, people migrants desperate too for a better life

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Speaker 2: coming from Central America are not They're not criminals, So

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Speaker 2: then why there are people desperate Because we don't have

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Speaker 2: open borders. We don't have catch and release.

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Speaker 1: So you said that the idea of family detention should

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Speaker 1: be seen in fact as a deterrent for other mothers

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Speaker 1: and children to not cross the border. Do you think, though, that,

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Speaker 1: in fact it ended up paving the way for what

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Speaker 1: became Trump's zero tolerance policy Families cannot be held.

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Speaker 2: I would disagree with that. That was the Trump administration's

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Speaker 2: own idea, independent of anything we did. The principal reason

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Speaker 2: for expanding our detention capability is simply because the numbers

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Speaker 2: were rising and we had to have some idea of

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Speaker 2: who was entering our country and there were some people

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Speaker 2: who were appropriate to be detained. Did that serve as

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Speaker 2: a deterrent? I think the answer in retrospect is definitely yes. Now,

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration decided to go down this road of

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Speaker 2: a zero tolerance policy that they were never going to

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Speaker 2: be able to fulfill because you simply don't have the

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Speaker 2: infrastructure or the detention space to hold all these people.

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Speaker 1: So, J Johnson, citizen, what do you think is the

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Speaker 1: intention behind Donald Trump's zero tolerance policy in terms of

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Speaker 1: immigrants and immigration?

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Speaker 2: And well, you'll have to ask Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: And John citizen. As you're kind of looking at this

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Speaker 1: having been on the inside.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's a very good discussion. Having owned this

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Speaker 2: problem for three years, I know a couple of lessons. One,

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Speaker 2: real and perceived changes in enforcement policy have the effect

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Speaker 2: of causing downturns in illegal immigration. But and here's the

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Speaker 2: big butt, Maria, But so long as the underlying conditions,

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Speaker 2: that underlying push factors in Central America persist, the overall

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Speaker 2: pattern is always going to revert back.

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Speaker 1: So Secretary, I don't know. I mean, when I think

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Speaker 1: about my experience of covering immigration and meeting Central America

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Speaker 1: and migrants, you know, most people really do not want

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Speaker 1: to leave. And I have yet to find any migrant

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Speaker 1: who is telling me oh, I was checking my phone

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Speaker 1: to find out what the policy was in the United

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Speaker 1: States in order to determine when I was going to leave.

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Speaker 1: Usually it's an extraordinary crisis that lends someone to make

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Speaker 1: this kind of a decision. So the notion of we

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Speaker 1: couldn't appear to be open borders if we registered people

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Speaker 1: who were coming in and then said okay, well we

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Speaker 1: want you to come back and show up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just find it very interesting, you know that actually

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Speaker 1: immigrants appear to their court cases overwhelmingly. So I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why if you wanted to have a humanitarian response

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Speaker 1: that you didn't in fact take the political blowback and

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Speaker 1: just say, these are human beings. They are not coming

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Speaker 1: to overrun the country. We're going to process them, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to release them because we understand that they

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Speaker 1: no threat. But your administration that.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's the reality. Everyone wants a black or white answer.

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Speaker 2: Either detain everyone or detain no one. It's not that simple,

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Speaker 2: and people are very mindful of because the coyotes, the

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Speaker 2: smugglers will publicize this and encourage this. What will happen

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Speaker 2: when I get here? Will I be detained? Will I

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Speaker 2: be released? And so if we were to say, if

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Speaker 2: we were to declare publicly, if you come here, you

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Speaker 2: will be arrested, processed, and then released. And that's the

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Speaker 2: policy of the United States, you're just encouraging more illegal migration.

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Speaker 2: I mean a lot of people. Yes, really, I just absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I know people don't want to hear that, Maria, but

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Speaker 2: well that that is in fact the case. Migrants are

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Speaker 2: very sensitive to our enforcement policies and perceive changes in it.

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Speaker 2: They pay a difference to that.

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Speaker 1: I just think that most migrants are. It's a very

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Speaker 1: complicated situation. And in fact, recently I was on the border.

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Speaker 1: We were in Brownsville, we were in McCallan, and then

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Speaker 1: we crossed over into Matamoros and spoke with some of

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Speaker 1: the people who were waiting to cross over. Let's let's

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Speaker 1: just take a listen to this.

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Speaker 6: Why did you live on Duras Jodsa.

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Speaker 1: He told me that he left on Dudas because his

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Speaker 1: daughter had been raped, that his house had been burned down,

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Speaker 1: and that they were now living on the street, and

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Speaker 1: that he never thought he would be in this situation

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Speaker 1: with people treating him poorly, just because he was a

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Speaker 1: desperate migrant. And then he was holding back his tears

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Speaker 1: and he said to me, we came in search of protection.

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Speaker 1: And then he said to the US government, if you

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Speaker 1: hear this, have mercy. We didn't come because we wanted

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Speaker 1: to come.

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Speaker 6: Filicojo thing up Nome.

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Speaker 1: So that kind of falls in the face of what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, which has.

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Speaker 2: Had that conversation with hundreds of migrants on the border

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Speaker 2: after they're apprehended. I always ask why did you come here?

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Speaker 2: I always want to hear their stories, and first and

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Speaker 2: foremost the reason people leave Central America. Are the conditions

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Speaker 2: that we just heard. No one's questioning that it's a

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Speaker 2: powerful reason why people flee, and many people qualify for asylum,

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Speaker 2: but a lot don't.

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Speaker 1: Secretary, what is it like when you hear the criticism

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Speaker 1: that that actually the Obama administration, the country's first black president,

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Speaker 1: actually laid the seeds in terms of what people call

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Speaker 1: the immigration, detension, deportation mass industrial complex. That, yes, it's

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Speaker 1: It didn't start under Obama, didn't start under George W.

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Speaker 1: It started under Bill k actually with the nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: six laws. But that what the Obama administration did was

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Speaker 1: actually to put down the railings for the trains of

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Speaker 1: the deportation machinery to start running.

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Speaker 2: Well, the high for illegal migration on our southern border

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Speaker 2: was the year two thousand, nineteen years ago, and it

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Speaker 2: is now a fraction of what it used to be.

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Speaker 2: The year two thousand was when Bill Clinton was president.

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Speaker 2: It's now a fraction of what it used to be,

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Speaker 2: although today as we speak, it's becoming an increasingly large fraction.

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Speaker 2: Highest we've seen in twelve years. Do I have any

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Speaker 2: second guesses or about the investments that our government has

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Speaker 2: made over the last nineteen years in security in our

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Speaker 2: southern border. No, I do not.

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Speaker 1: You have no second guesses?

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Speaker 2: Well, no, do I regret that we've made the investments

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Speaker 2: we've made?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Are there things that we could have done differently now

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Speaker 2: that I'm a lot smarter sitting here in midtown Manhattan, Yes,

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Speaker 2: of course.

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Speaker 1: But what well, when you sit and you say regrets, well.

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Speaker 2: They're always you know, I shouldn't have said that because

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Speaker 2: you're new, You're going to follow up good question.

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Speaker 1: Well, it means. What it means to me, Secretary, is

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Speaker 1: that when you're alone in your midtown office or you

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Speaker 1: know whatever, that you are in fact sitting here saying

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Speaker 1: whoa what happened here?

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Speaker 2: No, it's not quite that way, Maria. No, it's are

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Speaker 2: there things that I would do differently with the benefit

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Speaker 2: of hindsight when it comes to our immigration mission, our

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Speaker 2: cybersecurity mission, our counter terrorism mission with the benefit of hindsight? Yes,

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Speaker 2: of course, But we're always smarter in retrospect. I hope

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Speaker 2: this administration learns some lessons from its own experiences, because

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Speaker 2: it clearly has not learned many lessons from history from

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Speaker 2: prior administrations.

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Speaker 1: So seeing how President Trump has enacted his immigran policies,

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Speaker 1: essentially making it the centerpiece of his campaign now his

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Speaker 1: reelection campaign. Do you think that things would be different

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Speaker 1: today if the Obama administration in fact had passed immigration reform.

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Speaker 2: We came very close in the House to passing comprehensive

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Speaker 2: immigration reform and it did not happen. So by fall

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Speaker 2: of twenty fourteen, at the direction of the President, we

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Speaker 2: launched a series of executive actions to do the best

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Speaker 2: we could to reform our immigration system, which included a

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Speaker 2: doc A like program for parents of US citizens lawful

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Speaker 2: permanent residents who had been in this country a number

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Speaker 2: of years. One of the other executive actions we launched,

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Speaker 2: which I'm proud of, is we asked our immigration enforcement

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Speaker 2: personnel to focus more sharply on the criminals, and they did.

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Speaker 1: You will admit, though, that many of the criminals who

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Speaker 1: are considered criminals people who have just committed fraud.

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Speaker 2: Well, the priorities in the policy we released in November

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen focused most sharply on convicted felons, not people

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Speaker 2: who commit a crime simply by crossing the border illegally.

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Speaker 1: But fraud would be one of those crimes criminal robbery,

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Speaker 1: but basically, every single undocumented immigrant in the United States

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Speaker 1: of America has committed fraud. That would make every single level.

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Speaker 2: That's not the way we looked at it. That would

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Speaker 2: be wrong. Now, that would not be the way we

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Speaker 2: looked at it. That's not the way I told our

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Speaker 2: enforcement personnel to carry out the priorities.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I'm a professor of Latino studies. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm a Mexican immigrant. I have sixteen jobs, so one

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Speaker 1: of them is I'm also a professor. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things, thank you, One of the things that I

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Speaker 1: hear from my students, many of them are first generation

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Speaker 1: children of immigrants, and they would raise this question. They

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Speaker 1: would say, it hurts us too, curly, deeply that we

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Speaker 1: have a black president and a black man who is

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Speaker 1: running the Department of Homeland Security, and that it is

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Speaker 1: under them that we feel that we are being most

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Speaker 1: targeted as immigrants. Of course, immigrants are of every single race.

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Speaker 1: But what do you say to the people who say,

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Speaker 1: and it's tough, right, it's not a pretty question. It's

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Speaker 1: not something that I even like asking, But they're saying,

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Speaker 1: these are black men who have an experience of being

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Speaker 1: denied their role, their visibility their power in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and they're the ones who are doing this.

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Speaker 2: Whoever occupies the office a President of the United States

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Speaker 2: or the office of Secretary of Homeland Security, whether you're black,

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Speaker 2: you're white, Latino, or of any other race, religion, or

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Speaker 2: national origin, has a responsibility to enforce the law as

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Speaker 2: they exist. That was something that President Obama and I

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Speaker 2: took very seriously. There are solutions to this problem area.

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Speaker 2: There are solutions that are obtainable, and they're not easy fixes,

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Speaker 2: and they're politically difficult. They're politically controversial. One of which

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Speaker 2: is we have to continue what we started in the

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Speaker 2: last administration of investing in eradicating the poverty and violence

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Speaker 2: in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. It can be done.

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Speaker 2: Will it happen in a week, in a month, in

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Speaker 2: a year, or even life at one administration? Probably not,

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Speaker 2: But we have to keep at investing in eradicating the

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Speaker 2: poverty and violence in those countries. The push factors always

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Speaker 2: overwhelm any level of border security or immigration enforcement you

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Speaker 2: can put on the problem on our southern border.

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Speaker 1: Secretary Johnson, have you ever thought about apologizing for your

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Speaker 1: role in kind of creating the immigration detention problems situation

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Speaker 1: crisis that we have now.

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Speaker 2: No, are these issues controversial? Yes? Are people unhappy with

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Speaker 2: the way in which laws or enforced policies are administered? Yes,

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Speaker 2: on both sides, without a doubt, these were extraordinarily difficult issues.

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Speaker 2: I handled them. President Obama handled them as best we

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Speaker 2: could with what we had to work with.

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Speaker 1: What would be the one thing that you're like, the

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Speaker 1: thing that kind of keeps you up at night? What

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Speaker 1: worries you now?

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Speaker 2: What worries me now is that this administration seems unwilling

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Speaker 2: or unable to learn from the experiences of the past.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I did when I was in

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Speaker 2: office during that summer twenty fourteen during Spike, was calling

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Speaker 2: my Republican predecessor, Mike Tchurdoff and asked him, listen, how

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Speaker 2: did you deal with this when you were in office?

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Speaker 2: And I learned a lot from him. This administration doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem to be interested in doing that.

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Speaker 1: Secretary J. Johnson, thank you so much for joining me

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Speaker 1: on Latino USA.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: J Johnson served as Secretary of Homeland Security from twenty

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Speaker 1: thirteen to twenty seventeen under President Barack Obama. This episode

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Speaker 1: was produced by Miguel Marcias and Maggie Frieling. It was

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Speaker 1: edited by Fernande Camarena and Marlon Bishop. It was mixed

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Speaker 1: by Stephanie Lebau. The Latino USA team also includes Victoria

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Speaker 1: Estrada Rinaldo, LEANOZ Junior, Andrea Lopez Gruso, Don mar Marquez,

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Speaker 1: Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent, Nor Saudi and Nancy Trujillo. Ramirez

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Speaker 1: is our co executive producer. Our senior engineer is Julia Caruso.

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Speaker 1: Additional engineering support by Gabriel Lebias and JJ Krubin. Our

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Speaker 1: marketing manager is Luis Lura. Our theme music was composed

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Speaker 1: by Sean Ruinos. I'm your host and executive producer marieo Josa.

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Speaker 1: Join us again on our next episode. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: look for us on social media, and remember yes Hi.

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Speaker 3: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising

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Speaker 3: Simons Foundation, Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities More at hsfoundation

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Speaker 3: dot org, The Ford Foundation working with visionaries on the

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Speaker 3: front lines of social change worldwide, and Michelle Mercer and

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Speaker 3: Bruce Golden.

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Speaker 1: Secretary Johnson Digits Ja Ja Here we Go