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Speaker 1: Quody dias. But Joseph's gotten more. I've learned a couple

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Speaker 1: of things along the way, and I think the idea

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Speaker 1: here is that it involves two words for me, and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about them this morning as I chat.

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Speaker 2: With brothers Dave.

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Speaker 1: The words are tolerate and accept. It's a matter of

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Speaker 1: the journey that we're on, isn't I think even though

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Speaker 1: those two words are seemingly the same, they're actually not

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Speaker 1: on any level. But they do start off in degrees.

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Speaker 1: I think to tolerate something is to have to deal

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Speaker 1: with with it in the short term. Think about a

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Speaker 1: splinter that you've caught on the sole of your foot

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Speaker 1: as you're walking on an old wooden dock adjacent to

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Speaker 1: a beautiful lake. Because I've done that very painful, so

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Speaker 1: I tolerate the splinter in my foot to the point

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Speaker 1: till I can get it out. Now, in that same

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Speaker 1: line of logic, would it seem rational for me to

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Speaker 1: want to accept the splinter that's in dwelling in my foot.

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Speaker 1: It's become fester infected. It needs to come out because

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Speaker 1: that infection, though seemingly very small, could spread. You never know,

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Speaker 1: I might have to have my foot amputated or worse,

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Speaker 1: I could become septive. Today on body Bags, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about something that we I think collectively have

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Speaker 1: been asked to tolerate initially and was apparently tolerated by

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Speaker 1: many people, and there are camps out there that would

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Speaker 1: have us accept a story. We're going to revisit the

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Speaker 1: case of Jeffrey Epstein today. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Bags. Dave. Got to tell you, like

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Speaker 1: so many other cases that we cover, you think that

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Speaker 1: you know, particularly those that go on and on and on,

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Speaker 1: You think that you've mined out every bit of data

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Speaker 1: that's there, and you're going to go into the next

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Speaker 1: case because, as you know, with death, Dave, people keep

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Speaker 1: on dying, right, and there will always be another case

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Speaker 1: to cover. But with the Jeffrey Epstein case, things continue

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Speaker 1: to happen. And this week I sent you an article.

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Speaker 2: That I did.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see coming. It literally caught me out of

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Speaker 1: left field, and it has to do with a topic

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Speaker 1: that I've been interested in for probably about three or

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Speaker 1: four years that's peripheral to the death of Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 1: But it's this ranch that out in New Mexico that

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Speaker 1: he formerly.

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Speaker 2: Owned Zoro Ranch, the Zoro Ranch thirty miles outside of

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Speaker 2: Santa Fe, south east of Santa Fe.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if he were caping a mask as he

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Speaker 1: was out there that. Yeah, And I've really wondered. And

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Speaker 1: here's here's where my and this goes to forensics.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 1: I've heard all of these stories about sexual assault. I've

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Speaker 1: heard all of these stories about some of them children

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Speaker 1: allegedly being brought into this country, and even those that

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Speaker 1: aren't children, young women that have been brought into this country,

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Speaker 1: excuse me. And I've often wondered what became of them.

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Speaker 1: I've always had that kind of in the back of

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Speaker 1: my head, and I've talked about this with with with

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Speaker 1: some colleagues over these many years since Epstein's death. And

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Speaker 1: people don't just up and vanish, and there's been a

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Speaker 1: narrative I think for some time that you know, well,

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Speaker 1: this one was paid, that one was paid, and they

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Speaker 1: were sent back to wherever they had come from. UH

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Speaker 1: got to tell you if the volume is correct, which

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Speaker 1: it seems like it might be, with a number of

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Speaker 1: these women, particularly those coming from Eastern Europe that uh

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Speaker 1: don't speak uh a lick of English. Even Virginia Guphrey.

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Speaker 2: Is that her name, Guphriy, Yeah, Virginia Roberts Guffray, Yeahray.

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Speaker 1: She had she had even said that she was engaged.

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Speaker 1: I'll try to clean this up in a well an orgy,

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Speaker 1: I guess with two young women that from France, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think that she had framed

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Speaker 1: it Eastern European and they couldn't speak a lick of English.

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Speaker 1: So I've often wondered, you know, what went on out

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Speaker 1: at that ranch. It's a mass of place and this

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Speaker 1: there's an article out now that's saying that this thing

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Speaker 1: should be looked into again, and or it hasn't been

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Speaker 1: looked into, and that they're going to there needs to

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Speaker 1: be an investigation initiated so that the property could be searched. Well,

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Speaker 1: they'd be searching for well, I think they would be

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Speaker 1: searching for human remains.

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Speaker 2: I remember you saying that, Joe, a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 2: when it was kind of in passing and we were

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Speaker 2: doing a show on something, and I remember you mentioning it,

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Speaker 2: and I remember thinking, that's a bit of a stretch.

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Speaker 2: At the time, we were dealing with so much. You

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Speaker 2: know within the Epstein file, but you know, and there

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Speaker 2: was was he killed or was it suicide? I mean,

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Speaker 2: the whole nine It was crazy back then. But I

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Speaker 2: remember you mentioning that, and I kind of you know

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Speaker 2: how you file something in the back of your head

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Speaker 2: and I'll go revisit that later. And in the last

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Speaker 2: six days there has been a real focus on New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: The ranch. You've got a huge ranch that Epstein owned

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Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety three until it was sold in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three. Now, granted he died in twenty nineteen allegedly,

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Speaker 2: but the ranch was sold to Don Huffine's family. He

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Speaker 2: is a Texas politician, businessman, and he's now running for

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Speaker 2: a statewide position in Texas. And so there is a

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Speaker 2: spotlight on that property because you know, those who would

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Speaker 2: do him damage politically are going to try to find

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Speaker 2: something there to remember that he didn't own it then

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Speaker 2: you know, he's owned it five years after so anyway,

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Speaker 2: but in these thoughts, and.

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Speaker 1: I'd also develop political capital off of that. Yes, you know,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know, but yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, I think you had something there. No, I think

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Speaker 2: you're onto something, Joe, And I think that that property

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Speaker 2: needs to be said. It is seven thousand acres.

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Speaker 1: It it's a I'd heard seven thousand. There was one

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Speaker 1: number that ranged up to nine. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: accurate that was, and I don't know if there are

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Speaker 1: peripheral properties. But by our standards down here in the South, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is massive, you know, to us. I think it's

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Speaker 1: massive to anybody unless you live in Montana maybe you know.

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Speaker 1: For us, it's all about scale and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, a person can buy as much property

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Speaker 1: as you want, and I know that people want to

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Speaker 1: be be out there isolated, and I think that that's

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Speaker 1: probably you know, I don't know that he's grazing cattle.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if Epstein was a member of the

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Speaker 1: Herfer Association or anything like that. And he's out there

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Speaker 1: grazing cattle. So I mean it's his. It was his

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Speaker 1: to buy for what he wanted to buy for. But again,

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Speaker 1: just like little Saint James, that that that piece of

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Speaker 1: property is on an island now.

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Speaker 2: Right, and now you're talking about the state of New

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Speaker 2: Mexico being involved, And okay, before we peel this onion,

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Speaker 2: you know, and really go down a rabbit hole. There

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Speaker 2: was a Democrat Governor of New Mexico, Bill Richards Richardson,

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Speaker 2: and he and Epstein were very close. They had a

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Speaker 2: long association, and he's now passed on. He has no

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Speaker 2: way to defend himself. So I'm very careful when talking

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Speaker 2: about somebody who is injected into a story without proper

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Speaker 2: I'm not doubting it at all. I just haven't investigated it.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've only seen headlines and those are very misleading.

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Speaker 2: But you suggested many years ago that the volume of

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Speaker 2: young girls being sent from Eastern Europe to the United

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Speaker 2: States for Epstein and his pals, and it seemed like

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Speaker 2: New Mexico was the destination for them, a lot of them.

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Speaker 2: And then we don't have you know, because of his

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Speaker 2: private planes. You know, they're not flying commercial, so we

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Speaker 2: don't have records of them leaving. We have stories, and

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Speaker 2: that's I mentioned Virginia Roberts. Gouffrey mentioned two girls from

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Speaker 2: Paris that were flown in for Epstein's birthday at the

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Speaker 2: ranch in Texas. And we're talking twelve year olds here.

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Speaker 2: We're talking children that were did not speak a word

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Speaker 2: of English. They were from France, they were flown in.

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Speaker 2: Did the birthday party and then allegedly flown back to

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Speaker 2: Paris or France. And I don't this came from her.

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Speaker 2: Virginia Roberts Gouffrey, who sued Epstein, sued Gilian Maxwell, sued

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Speaker 2: Prince Andrew, and even briefly sued Alan Dershowitz. She grew

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Speaker 2: Gufrey is the one who died last year. And I

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Speaker 2: guess this bears a lot more reporting. It bears a

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Speaker 2: lot more investigation.

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Speaker 1: And look, I hope that they will take a look

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Speaker 1: at it and just to see what there might be

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Speaker 1: if this fellow that owns place now, if he's inviting

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Speaker 1: an investigation, if it's part of his portfolio, if he's

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Speaker 1: and this was like one of the primary news organs

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Speaker 1: in state of New Mexico that published this article. It

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Speaker 1: was like out of Santa Fe.

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Speaker 2: I think, well thought, I give you this heads up. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: if you google it today, Okay, you're going to see

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Speaker 2: the Santa Fe New Mexican as the story you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: But beyond the Santa Fe, New Mexican, you have the

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Speaker 2: Texas Tribune. Because Don Haffin's family bought Epstein's ranch after

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Speaker 2: Epstein passed. It was part by the way, it was.

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Speaker 2: It was eight thousand acres well right, So it was

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Speaker 2: sold as part of the way to settle Epstein's estate. Now,

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Speaker 2: Epstein signed a new will two days before his death,

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Speaker 2: and that if you really want to see where his empathy,

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Speaker 2: sympathy and just the idea of continuing to damage his victims,

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Speaker 2: that that will two days before he died, was very

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Speaker 2: explicit on taking his funds, tying it all up. By

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Speaker 2: the way, five hundred and seventy five million dollars that

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Speaker 2: was the number that was bandied about in his will

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Speaker 2: and covered it up so that the victims wouldn't get anything.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. I'm going to have to dig into that

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Speaker 2: some more too. But other headlines associated with Zoro Ranch.

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Speaker 2: Don Haffine's family bought Epstein's ranch after his death. From

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Speaker 2: The Guardian from New York to New Mexico. New Epstein

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Speaker 2: files shed light on his sprawling ranch outside Santa Fe.

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Speaker 2: Now KOB TV in New Mexico in Albuquerque. Who is

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Speaker 2: the new owner of Epstein's New Mexico ranch? Now, this

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Speaker 2: is a story we published two days ago. The ranch

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Speaker 2: was sold three years ago. Joe the new owner. Come on,

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Speaker 2: they were new for the first few months now they're

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Speaker 2: the owner and they've renamed it San Rafael. Comptroller candidate

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Speaker 2: Don Huffein's family owns former Jeffrey Epstein ranch that's ksat

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Speaker 2: the center Square News reports new Mexico Epstein ranch now

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Speaker 2: owned by Texas Comptroller candidate So and these are always

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Speaker 2: in the last forty eight hours.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's Look, I can't say we're necessarily

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Speaker 1: getting ahead of it right now, but we knew. I

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Speaker 1: knew that when you sent that article to me, because

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Speaker 1: of the huge document dump that's taking place just over

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Speaker 1: the past few weeks, that something would come of it,

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Speaker 1: and here we have it. I didn't necessarily expect this,

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Speaker 1: that this would be popping up on the radar. Something

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Speaker 1: I've talked about from a forensics standpoint for some time.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know. And and look, I gotta tell

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Speaker 1: you we're not the Body Bags. It's certainly not the

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Speaker 1: Epstein All Epstein twenty four hours a day channel. But

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Speaker 1: my lord, if that wasn't enough still on our plate

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Speaker 1: to discuss on this episode of body Bags is there

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Speaker 1: has been more information that has come out, and it

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Speaker 1: has come by way of doctor Michael Boden. Articles dropped

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Speaker 1: this week, and it has to do with the findings

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Speaker 1: at the autopsy where Michael Boden's present. Well, Dave, our

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Speaker 1: our eyes now turned to Michael Boden, who just this

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Speaker 1: week was apparently interviewed I think by the Male the

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Speaker 1: Daily Mail, and he had a big reveal from his

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Speaker 1: perspective relative to the Epstein situation. It doesn't have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with the Zora Ranch. These two things just

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Speaker 1: kind of happened simultaneously. But Michael believes, as he always has,

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Speaker 1: that Epstein's death is something other than a suicide. Now,

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Speaker 1: I know that many of you are probably saying, yeah, duh,

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Speaker 1: but you have to understand forensic pathologists don't have the

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Speaker 1: have the luxury of saying yeah. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: make a comment about this sort of thing, it has

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Speaker 1: to be science based. And you know, I like to

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Speaker 1: think that we are, you know, here with body bags.

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Speaker 1: We try to look at the physical evidence and arrive

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Speaker 1: at some kind of conclusion. But I got to tell

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Speaker 1: you some of his points that he's made along the way, Dave,

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Speaker 1: they they're valid. I think they're and certainly it really

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Speaker 1: gives you an insight into the relationship. And I don't

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Speaker 1: and don't misconstrue that that comment into the professional relationship

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Speaker 1: that he had with doctor Sampson inside of that autopsy

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Speaker 1: SUITEK And that was a real, a real, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: real reveal I think in this article, and not to

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Speaker 1: mention a couple of physical findings as well.

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Speaker 2: Right now, Boden was there. I'm at the direction invitation,

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Speaker 2: however you want to look at it by Epstein's brother Mark,

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Speaker 2: Is that correct? Yea, all right, now, Boden did not

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Speaker 2: conduct the autopsy. He was an observer. Is that correct? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, by the way, I just want everybody to understand,

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Speaker 1: this happens a lot. I've been present to have observers.

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Speaker 2: So I was going to ask you what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, on behalf of the family. It's generally has to

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Speaker 1: do with an in custody death. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I don't recall off of the top of my head

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Speaker 1: if I've ever been present or participated in autopsy where

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Speaker 1: we had an outside observer that was linked to a

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Speaker 1: family where the death occurred in custody, and it's generally

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Speaker 1: that's what you get. You know, my brother died in

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Speaker 1: the jail. My brother died, died in the back of

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Speaker 1: a patrol call. You know, if they're physically in custody

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Speaker 1: when they die, because the state has control over you

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Speaker 1: at that point, you in a weird way, you kind

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Speaker 1: of become a ward of the state, right, right, and

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Speaker 1: so you die on their watch. Families got questions, all right,

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Speaker 1: And you know, I don't necessarily have a problem with it,

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Speaker 1: because you know, we shouldn't in the medical legal field.

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Speaker 1: We should be as objective as possible and play it

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Speaker 1: right down the line.

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Speaker 2: And so what would happen Joe with Michael bidden there

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Speaker 2: to observe the autopsy? What would he would he be

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Speaker 2: a silent observer like an extra camera. What would he

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Speaker 2: be able to look? Get up close and look? What

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Speaker 2: would he be allowed to do?

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Speaker 1: Well, he's going to be gawned up, you know, have

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Speaker 1: surgical gown on, gloves. If they wear masks, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure he'd have a mask on, and yes, some

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Speaker 1: some practitioners don't wear masks. He'd be, you know, off

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Speaker 1: festooned and he would quietly stand there. He would have

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Speaker 1: met Wood Sampson beforehand, you know, there would have been

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Speaker 1: by the way, there would have been contact between Mark

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Speaker 1: Epstein's attorney and the attorney that represents the office of

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Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner, and yes, the OCME and every corner

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Speaker 1: medical Examiner's office out there, particularly the large ones all

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Speaker 1: have a representation, and this conversation would have taken place.

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Speaker 1: You know, Mark Epstein would have requested that doctor Biden

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Speaker 1: be present for this, and he obliged. And my suspicion

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Speaker 1: is he's paid observer. Now he is going to be present.

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Speaker 1: He is the eyes and the ears of the family.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't work for the state, even though Michael I

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Speaker 1: think at one point in time was the Chief Medical

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Speaker 1: Examiner for the entire state of New York. Wow, and

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Speaker 1: he did work at OCME as well. Anyway, he would

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Speaker 1: have stood by. He would have observed the initial incisions

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Speaker 1: and also the reflection of you know, how we do

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Speaker 1: the how we do the y incision people always hear about.

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Speaker 1: He would have stood there the entire time and watched

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Speaker 1: watch this. But prior to that, he would have been

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Speaker 1: leaning over. Imagine this, He's got a mask on Michael

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Speaker 1: War's glasses. He would have been leaning over and guess

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Speaker 1: where's focus would have been on the external exam. He

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Speaker 1: would have lingered over the neck because you know, any

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Speaker 1: of the images that you see of Epstein post mortem,

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty significant mark, this linear mark on his neck.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's like striking. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I think that there's more than one. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: it looks like there's been a readjustment of whatever it

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Speaker 1: was that caused this. He would have paid particularly a

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Speaker 1: particular attention to the angle of this furrow. Does it

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Speaker 1: stay on the same plane, does it elevate? You know,

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Speaker 1: because we look for something and you guys heard me

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Speaker 1: talk about tinting feature. Does it come to a point,

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Speaker 1: you know, like where you have a suspended hanging where

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Speaker 1: an individual suspended, you know, from a hard point that

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Speaker 1: is superior to their person, that creates this almost pinched

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Speaker 1: looking tint. He would have observed all that, and he

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Speaker 1: would have probably nuzzled in pretty closely to that furrow.

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Speaker 1: I can almost guarantee you looking at it. It wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be surprising if he had a hand lens mag fine

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Speaker 1: glass with him or have requested one to look at it,

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Speaker 1: and he probably would have done it while doctor Sampson

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Speaker 1: was doing it as well. Now he's not gonna he's

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Speaker 1: not he's not the type of person that's going to

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Speaker 1: yell and scream. That's not the way he operates. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and they throw him out in the first place. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've got dis agreement. There's this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a very kind of professional, cool, kind of kind of

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Speaker 1: environment that they would have been in no pun intended

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Speaker 1: with the cool they would have been there, you know,

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Speaker 1: observing this and he's he's doing all the calculations in

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Speaker 1: his own brain. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me if he didn't have his own clipboard, clipboard

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Speaker 1: with a pen. He's making annotations every time a measurement

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Speaker 1: is done. He might look at doctor Sampson and say,

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Speaker 1: what was your measurement?

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Speaker 2: On that.

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Speaker 1: He's not going to pick up the ruler and actually

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Speaker 1: do the measurement himself. Okay, but he could ask questions.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he could ask questions, but not to the

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Speaker 1: point where he's going to interfere. Okay. Wow, So it's

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Speaker 1: a weird dynamic to be in. Most people don't think

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Speaker 1: about it. But again, you you work. Let me see,

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Speaker 1: how can I phrase this? If you're a guest, you

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Speaker 1: work and observe at the pace of the actual pro sector.

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Speaker 1: You don't say whoa, whoa, whoa slow down, slow down,

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Speaker 1: that's not that's not how this works. You're there as

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Speaker 1: an observer, as a guest. And for all I know,

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Speaker 1: Michael Biden might not do autopsy is the same way

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Speaker 1: that doctor Sampson does, because everybody develops their own rhythm.

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Speaker 1: In the more matter of fact, many you know, most pathologists,

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Speaker 1: most forensic pathologists are mentored by somebody specifically when they're

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Speaker 1: doing their fellowship and it's amazing. And I've seen this

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Speaker 1: because my last office I was at we had a

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Speaker 1: fellowship program and so we trained upcoming forensic pathologists and

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Speaker 1: it's weird. The pathologist, the trainee pathologists that kind of

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Speaker 1: develops a relationship with that actual practicing pathologist. David'll actually

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Speaker 1: take on the traits of that individual, and it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It's like making violince. I don't know who studied under

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Speaker 1: strata various, but you know they picked up some of

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Speaker 1: that old man's traits. So I'm kind of going far

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Speaker 1: a field with this, but I want I want our

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Speaker 1: friends to understand that this is not unusual. It would

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Speaker 1: have been very professional and they would have been doing

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Speaker 1: their own observations. I doubt very seriously that doctor Biden

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Speaker 1: would have been allowed to have brought his own camera

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Speaker 1: into that environment. He could do his own sketches probably,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine. So that's really going to comprise his

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Speaker 1: notes at the conclusion when all this is said. But

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Speaker 1: here's here's the thing and what this goes to relative

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Speaker 1: to the heart of the of the article that dropped Boden,

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Speaker 1: he at least implies an article that he came away

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Speaker 1: with what he felt like was a mutual understanding with Samson,

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Speaker 1: and he he actually states again I think he's previously stayed,

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Speaker 1: but he really emphasizes this article. He says, like, is

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Speaker 1: like five days later. It's like five days later, Samson

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Speaker 1: drops drops this thing where she says, I'm really in

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Speaker 1: this a suicide, and so he was. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I can't say that. I don't know that Michael Biden

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Speaker 1: has ever been gobsmacked by anything in his life, because

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Speaker 1: that's not his personality. But he was surprised, and he

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Speaker 1: you know, he makes note of that.

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Speaker 2: In this article. Day it actually came out that after

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Speaker 2: the autopsy witnessed by Boden, he and Barbara Sampson agreed

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Speaker 2: that the results were inconclusive and more information was needed

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Speaker 2: to determine the cause and manner of death. This is

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Speaker 2: why we're finding all this out now in the document

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Speaker 2: dump that it shows that doctor Boden expected there to

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Speaker 2: be further investigation, and based on his reaction, he expected

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Speaker 2: to be included in that to at least be informed

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Speaker 2: of what was going on. And when he has zero

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Speaker 2: communication on what's happening about a further investigation and five

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Speaker 2: days after they basically shake hands in agreement that we're

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Speaker 2: not really sure exactly what we can say about this

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Speaker 2: yet that without any further investigation, Samson makes the call,

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Speaker 2: and it was one that forced Boden into a corner.

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Speaker 2: Are you going to agree with Samson on this and

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Speaker 2: go along to get along or are you going to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: they never did the investigation necessary to come up with this.

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Speaker 2: So Boden has gone the only route he can. And

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Speaker 2: I found something interesting, Joe. I wanted to see when

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Speaker 2: Boden made it public of his you know, because you know,

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Speaker 2: things change over time and blah blah blah. Anyway, we're

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Speaker 2: talking almost immediately, Okay, Boden in October of twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: So we're talking eight weeks maybe or less after this

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Speaker 2: autopsy headline. In fifty years, I've not seen such injuries

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Speaker 2: in a suicidal hanging. That's what doctor Michael Boden said

393
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Speaker 2: about Epstein's death and saying it was more consistent with

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Speaker 2: homicidal strangulation than suicide. This is what he said immediately

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Speaker 2: following the change the announcement. So he's been consistent from

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Speaker 2: the beginning. Michael Bodden. He was there during the autopsy,

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Speaker 2: and then I asked you before we started full disclosure

398
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Speaker 2: here because I wanted to make sure of something in

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Speaker 2: the documentary Filthy Rich. The makers of the film talked

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Speaker 2: to Cyril Weck, doctor Cyril Weck, and he commented about this,

401
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: and I found that fascinating because Sirriah Weck said that

402
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Speaker 2: Michael Boden came to him and to ask for a

403
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Speaker 2: consult you know, giving him information and whatever he needed.

404
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: And Cyril Weck explained things on there that I was

405
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Speaker 2: talking to you about. And Cyril Weack seemed to come

406
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Speaker 2: away with the same conclusion that doctor Michael Boden had.

407
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Speaker 2: So Joe, we're talking murderer suicide here, buddy. This is

408
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Speaker 2: a big deal. This is a big deal.

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00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah we can. We can probably skip over accident here.

410
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, as one of our manners. That ain't happening. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so when yeah, when he when he went to

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Speaker 1: Cyril rest in peace, doctor Wack, and we did an

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Speaker 1: episode honoring him. He was a friend of mine.

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Speaker 2: I am so thankful you did that, Joe. If y'all

415
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: haven't heard it yet, go back and listen just you know,

416
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Speaker 2: search Cerril Wack, because you really did a good job

417
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: on that episode talking about Cyril and some of the

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Speaker 2: other influences in life.

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Speaker 1: Who's a giant. I mean, he really was. I The

420
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Speaker 1: only regret is that I have is I never got

421
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Speaker 1: to work with him in the Morgue. I would have

422
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Speaker 1: liked to. But yeah, he and and listen just so,

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Speaker 1: and going back to the whole relationship within the Morgue

424
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Speaker 1: between pathologists, Cyril and Michael have gone head to head before, right,

425
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: what was it? Corleone said, Uh, it's not personalist business, right,

426
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Speaker 1: And so pathologists do this all lawyers. Lawyers do it

427
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Speaker 1: all the time. They'll be screaming at each other in

428
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Speaker 1: court and then the next thing you know, they're at

429
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: the country.

430
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: Club again like professional wrestling.

431
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not wrestling, Davis.

432
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: Wrestlingling, Sorry, but yeah, yeah.

433
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: So but you know, Michael viewed, I think Cyril as

434
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: a peer obviously and his equal, and valued his opinion

435
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: and went to him and asked him, you know, what

436
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: what do you think?

437
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: Man?

438
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: What do you what do you think about about these conclusions?

439
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: You know, anybody can curve the narrative of any way

440
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: they want to, I guess. And it's possible that that

441
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: doctor Sampson came to some conclusions on her own that

442
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: that don't marry up with what doctor Biden did. However,

443
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: if the thing had ever made it or has would

444
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: ever make it into a forum where it would have

445
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 1: to be explained scientifically, the big question is can her

446
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: findings be verified scientific Brother Dave. I've actually got a

447
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: little list here of some of the findings, okay, from

448
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: Epstein's autopsy. All right, and I want to start with

449
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: the first one that's the most glaring, and listen, I urge,

450
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: I urge anybody. Uh, these images are available. You can

451
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: see the images. And I know that there are people

452
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: that are saying that, you know, everything's ai, everything's faked,

453
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: and I you know, good for you. I'm glad you

454
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: think that these images that I've seen don't marry up

455
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: with that, just like the images inside of the cell

456
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: that I've forever had questions about just the disorder. But

457
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: that's that's a topic for a different day. But let's

458
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: start with with the furrow. And I personally believe that

459
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: there's more than one. It looks like it's been readjusted.

460
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: And yeah, so furrow is okay. Here, here's the way

461
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: I explained it to my students at jack State. If

462
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: you think about we're almost on the cusp of we're

463
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: heading towards spring right now, and so we grow a

464
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: lot of cotton, sorghum, all kinds of things around here,

465
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: and where our university is is we've just got beautiful

466
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: feels that are out here with really rich, rich dirt.

467
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: And I tell them when we talk about literature strangulation

468
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: and we're talking about a furrow, think about a plow

469
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: being put down into a field and dragging it behind

470
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: a tractor and it cuts furrow into the ground. Well,

471
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: the furrow is the same thing. It's the same application

472
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: here with a neck. Some of them can be very

473
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: very deep and some of them can be broad. It

474
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: all depends on the instrument that is utilized in order

475
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: to facilitate a death. Well, with Epstein's they're calling it

476
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: a single furrow right here, but I think that it

477
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: was probably I think that there's a readjustment of the scene.

478
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: When I see it, it's described as an eight millimeter

479
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: wide okay, so readjust your American mindset to go with

480
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: metric here, So eight millimeter wide literature furrow running from

481
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: the left ear to behind the right ear. It doesn't

482
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: This furrow itself is very very high on the neck, okay.

483
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: It's not what you would see with a standard hanging, okay,

484
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: where the furrow on a hanging, a suspension hanging is

485
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: the front or the antier aspect where it's first contact

486
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: and skin acutely goes upward, okay, and very high. And

487
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,959
Speaker 1: that furrow most of the time is like really really deep.

488
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: And of course it's dependent upon the gauge or the

489
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: diameter of the literature that's being used, but it's very

490
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: This thing is very high, okay, on the neck. Another

491
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: thing here is that when you look at his injuries,

492
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: the highwaid bone, which we hear a lot about, we

493
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: hear a lot about as well, we should, and in

494
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: this case, in particularly Dave, it's because in suspension hangings

495
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: you don't see fractured hyoids. Well, the left greater horn

496
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: and the highwaid to shape. Some doctors will call it

497
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: a bird like structure, and what they mean by that

498
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: is if you think of a bird with I don't know,

499
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: kind of a delta wing appearance, maybe like a falcon

500
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: that has its wings kind of extended rearward as it's

501
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: in a dive. I just like to use the term

502
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: horseshoes kind of a horseshoe shaped bone. It's only non

503
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: articulating bone in the body. It doesn't communicate with a

504
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: single bone. It merely acts to anchor your tongue in

505
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: the back of your throat. Well, the left greater horn,

506
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: it's got two greater horns and two lesser horns. So

507
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: if you'll put your hand on the left side, take

508
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: your index finger and put it on the left side

509
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: of your of your airway. You know where you feel

510
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: your cartilage in your neck. Put it to the left

511
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: and press up. That's going to approximate where where the

512
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: high weid is. Okay, so there's two horns. You've got

513
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: a greater horn lesser horn. Well, the left greater horn

514
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: is fractured. And listen, I could I could probably go

515
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: with you, Dave, or go with anybody if they said, okay,

516
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: yet the the highwoid is fractured. Okay, okay, maybe that

517
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: might occur in a hanging. You have to generate a

518
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: lot of velocity and the furrow would have to be

519
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: positioned different. But I might buy what you're selling. But

520
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: then you follow that up. If you go below the

521
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: hyoid about two inches, you come to the thyroid cartilage, okay,

522
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: which is you know, kind of right in the center

523
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: of your neck. Well, bubba, there is a There are

524
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: two two fractures on this structure. So what that means

525
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: is that I think it could be either two separate

526
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: events or the adjustment of something, because I don't know.

527
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: And they're they're kind of in a vertical in the

528
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: vertical plane, so they're going, you know, kind of north

529
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: to south, up and down. All right, they're kind of

530
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: linear looking. Did it is that indicative of two separate

531
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: compressions of the neck or is it indicative of the

532
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: same the same event while increasing pressure along the way

533
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: in addition to the bone being broken. So now You've

534
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: got a lot of activity going on here. So that's

535
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: what that's what concerns many of us, you know, in

536
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: this world that we dwell because it's it's such an

537
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 1: odd an eye thing. He does have petiki and in

538
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: his eyes on the surface of his face, and that's

539
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: the little blood vessels that burst. You can see that

540
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: with hanging and you can see it with strangulation. He does.

541
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: There's no documentation of Epstein being being restrained in prison

542
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: yet he's got two recent contusions on his wrist, both sides. Okay,

543
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: then if you go to if you go to the

544
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: left shoulder, Dave, you have a muscle back there that's

545
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: called the trapezius. And any of us are athletes, if

546
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: you've worked out at all, you know you know your

547
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: muscle groups. You have the trapeziis back here. That that

548
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: gets you to work. It gives you good shoulder strength.

549
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: I was a linebacker playing football. You had to have

550
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: good shoulder strength. So you're going to focus on those

551
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: areas well. He's got a contusion and this is not

552
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: something that has arisen from like the settling of blood.

553
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: It is not. Don't confuse it would like would like uh,

554
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: postformal libidity. This is a focal area of hemorrhage that's

555
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 1: right there and then on his life. Yeah that no, no, man,

556
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: But I got the same I got the same question

557
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: for you. I mean, this is like, this is an

558
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: impact injury, right, okay, And it could be it could

559
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: be anything from being slammed into a wall.

560
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 2: Uh.

561
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: It could be somebody with very specific pressure using like

562
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: a thumb pressing down to hold someone. Could he have

563
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: done it to hisself?

564
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 2: Maybe?

565
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's underneath the sink in the

566
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: place or if you can even I can't remember. I

567
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: don't think you can think. But maybe if he could

568
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 1: bump into the into the railing on the bed, but Dave,

569
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: that would give a specific, more defined pattern. This is

570
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: just kind of a it looks like an impact area.

571
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: It's kind of circular. So you've got these weirdo injuries.

572
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: But one of the here here's the thing, you know,

573
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: the thing has always been relative to to Epstein. They

574
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: want to point to these so called ligatures that were

575
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: fashioned if you will, inside of the cell. Well, those

576
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: ligatures are torn up sheets, all right. Torn up sheets

577
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: don't have kind of accorded texture to them. Like say

578
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: a rope. All right, and certainly if there is a

579
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: pattern that would arise from a a wrapped sheet, it's

580
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: going to be very peculiar looking. It's it's going to

581
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: have it's not going to be uniformed. I'll put it

582
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: to you that way. In this article that we're talking

583
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: about with doctor Boden, he makes mention of the fact

584
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: that he saw in this pattern that there was something

585
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: that had an actual texture to it. Dave, isn't that

586
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: Isn't that what what the article is concluding here?

587
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 2: It is you're not going to have that with a sheet?

588
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: No, you're not. So what what has happened here?

589
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: Well?

590
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: Was there another item that was brought into his environment

591
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: that was utilized as a as a ligature? Now that

592
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: question has been asked, and in my mind, I don't

593
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: think it's been answered sufficiently.

594
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: It hasn't, Joe. And the one thing you pointed out

595
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 2: very early on was the condition of his cell. Talking

596
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: about Epstein's cell was covered up with extra sheets, extra blankets,

597
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: There were records in, there was medical equipment, Yeah, there were.

598
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: This is not the way a cell is supposed to

599
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: not just look it.

600
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: Be holds you right there and say this specifically because

601
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned this. Forensis David Saint Cord. He's

602
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: actually meaning a smooth electrical chord because there was a

603
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: damn c PAP machine and the thing, which is unbelievable.

604
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, go ahead, No, I'm with you one hundred

605
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 2: percent that.

606
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: It wouldn't have a texture to it is we.

607
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 2: No, there's nothing in there, you know, there's so much

608
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: stuff in there though. That's the whole thing, is that

609
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 2: you've got a cell that is totally out of place.

610
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: This is not how a cell is supposed to look.

611
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: And that's part of the problem with his investigation, Joe,

612
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: is that things are not right all the way around.

613
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: So to get a you know again, everything we see

614
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 2: is smooth. There's nothing there that would leave an imprint

615
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: like this that's being described on his neck. There's nothing

616
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 2: there that fits the injuries. And as you mentioned early

617
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: on again the sea pat machine, the other you know,

618
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 2: the this is a guy who had already allegedly tried

619
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: to commit suicide. It's a guy who was not supposed

620
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: to be in a cell by himself, and a lot

621
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: of what has taken place in the aftermath has been

622
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: a discussion of those things, you know, the cell the

623
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: lack of a cellmate, the guards falling asleep, and the

624
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: overall conditions are lack thereof of the security system video.

625
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: And yet when you get right down to the nitty

626
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: gritty of this autopsy that you have the doctor Samson

627
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: and doctor Bodden both agreeing that they need more time

628
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: and investigation to determine what happened, and then doctor Bodden

629
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: being shocked five days later to have this announcement without

630
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: any further investigation. Just I think it was Sarah Whacked

631
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: that said it stinks.

632
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah he did. And I would you know,

633
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: there's a big part of me that would really love

634
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: to say, well, this is just a professional one upsmanship

635
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 1: or something like this is that's not about this. He

636
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: he is sticking his neck out on this relative to

637
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: his conclusions. And then you back it with with what

638
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: Cyril stated, you know, before he passed on. And then

639
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: what a lot of others of us in the community

640
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: that our death investigators. Not everybody agrees, but you know,

641
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: there's many of us that that that have questions about

642
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: this and how it was handled and those sorts of things,

643
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 1: and it was it was it was odd, to say

644
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: the very least. I look forward to seeing this article

645
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: that has dropped, and I'm sure that it's going to

646
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: be replicated all over the place. That's the way it

647
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: happens in media. You'll find an initial source and then

648
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: everybody's going to go down their own road with it.

649
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: Particularly with Epstein, it's like a feeding frens. I don't

650
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: know what could initiate with this. I think one of

651
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: the things that I'm looking forward to trying to understand.

652
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: And there is one document that I am not going

653
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: to mention on this episode that was dropped from the

654
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: Justice Department that is odd. There was an article that

655
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: came out in this last dump and it was misdated

656
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: and it was a descriptor about I don't know if

657
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: it was misdated or you know, you can draw your

658
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: own conclusions. It was dated and it described the death

659
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: of Jeffrey Epstein, and it was apparently published the day

660
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: before he died. It was dated on that, so I

661
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: don't know how much validity to assign to that. So

662
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: I don't like to get into conspiratorial stuff. Are things

663
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: that cannot necessarily be backed up. But I think that

664
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: with Epstein's death this is something that would merit a

665
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: further examination. There was a group, I'll go ahead and say,

666
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: just in all fairness, there was a group of impaneled

667
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists that looked at the Epstein files. I think

668
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: there were six of them, and four of six came

669
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: a conclusion that it was a suicide. But I don't

670
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: know how. I don't know that they sat around at

671
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: a big table and disgusted it, or if they did

672
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: this blindly.

673
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: You know, the same people who said Prince Andrew had

674
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 2: nothing to do with Virginia Goufray.

675
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you never know, particularly in this world,

676
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: and we're we're we're on the edge of a world

677
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: that is in shadows, you know, things that we we

678
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: don't see. And you know, for some of us, it

679
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, I can't believe my lie in eyes, you know,

680
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: for some of it. But but I wait, you know,

681
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: it's just like some things just descend from the heavens,

682
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: you know, like a bolt. And this week has been

683
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: very interesting. You combine, combine uh, this thing about the ranch,

684
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: and you combine uh, this article that that was written

685
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: and talks about doctor Biden's thoughts. Some of it could

686
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: be motivated by the document dump itself. I have no idea,

687
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: but I do know that there are questions, and that

688
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: like many other cases out there, there will always be

689
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: questions and no one and I mean no one is

690
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: ever going to be satisfied with any one conclusion. That's

691
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: the way of the world, right, and it's the world

692
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: that we endwell. But you got to admit, in the

693
00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 1: words of Alice, it does get curiouser and curiouser. M hmm.

694
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bugs.

695
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 2: Mhm