Speaker 1: What's that at my bed's I'm pretty sure it's dead.
Speaker 1: It's coming this way. Wait a minute, I said.
Speaker 2: Hira's jass.
Speaker 1: Hey boo, it's me Roz. I love this conversation that
Speaker 1: I get to share with you all. Today I got
Speaker 1: to talk to Michelle Balanje and I have been a
Speaker 1: fan of Michelle's for a while. She was on the
Speaker 1: TV show Paranormal State and one of my absolute favorites
Speaker 1: that I always talk about Portals to Hell, which you
Speaker 1: can watch on the Travel Channel or Discovery Plus app.
Speaker 1: And I just think that this person is so otherworldly.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's a psychic first of all, so with
Speaker 1: the psychic news, the things that she does on TV,
Speaker 1: which I absolutely choose to believe is real. I mean
Speaker 1: you've heard my conversations with Katrina Wideman and Jack Osborne,
Speaker 1: who also work on that show. I mean, come on,
Speaker 1: it's real. It's real. Anyway, what she does is just
Speaker 1: so cool. And so Michelle is also a demon and
Speaker 1: a cult expert as well. She wrote the Dictionary of
Speaker 1: Demons and tons and tons of books, and we talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about that in this conversation. But so
Speaker 1: what we decided to do this week is We're going
Speaker 1: to do two parts of this conversation. This week's episode
Speaker 1: is going to be focused on Michelle's psychic abilities, and
Speaker 1: then next week we're gonna be talking about demons and
Speaker 1: it's booky. But I left the conversation feeling like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I need to be terrified of demons.
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna listen to what Michelle has to say.
Speaker 1: But of course, like always, like always with this show,
Speaker 1: please just you know, make your own decisions on things.
Speaker 1: But also it's it's great to hear from experts and
Speaker 1: to hear their insights, and that's sort of how my beliefs,
Speaker 1: you know. I keep my beliefs obviously open and they
Speaker 1: shift all the time. But it's just hearing these conversations
Speaker 1: with demonologists and psychics and experts and exorcists and all
Speaker 1: of these people. They definitely help me to have a
Speaker 1: very expansive idea of what could be possible. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just I personally hear someone like Michelle
Speaker 1: talk and I go, yeah, that sounds about right. But
Speaker 1: also Michelle, as you'll hear in this conversation, is somebody
Speaker 1: that is also a paranormal investigator on top of having
Speaker 1: all of these different psychic abilities. So Michelle has that
Speaker 1: open minded investigator brain as well, which I really appreciate.
Speaker 1: So before we get to that conversation, I thought I
Speaker 1: would read an email that came to me from a
Speaker 1: listener and that also reminds me I would love to
Speaker 1: do a listener episode very very soon, So please get
Speaker 1: me your listener episode submissions by emailing me at ghosted
Speaker 1: by Roz at gmail dot com with the subject line
Speaker 1: listener episode and hopefully we can work that out soon.
Speaker 1: This story came from Jordan, and Jordan is from my
Speaker 1: hometown of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Jordan writes, my best friend
Speaker 1: and I had a tradition dating back to college where
Speaker 1: we would drink cheap beer and watch bad movies every
Speaker 1: Thursday night. Our ironic alcohol of choice was forties of
Speaker 1: King Cobra. Dumb, but it's important, Okay. He passed away
Speaker 1: about ten years ago when he was hit by a
Speaker 1: car while walking home, and his death hit me really hard,
Speaker 1: as my wife, fiance at the time, and I were
Speaker 1: the last people he knew to see him alive. Ooh,
Speaker 1: that's rough. Two weeks after he passed Thursday rolled around
Speaker 1: and I couldn't think of anything else to do but
Speaker 1: to pour one out for him. So I drove to
Speaker 1: my local party store, which was empty except for the clerk,
Speaker 1: and reached for our two dollars malt liquor of choice,
Speaker 1: which PS. I've had conversations with people before, and not short.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm from the same neck of the woods
Speaker 1: as you, and we call it a party store there.
Speaker 1: But a lot of a party store is like what
Speaker 1: you call a liquor store, basically essentially a liquor store
Speaker 1: or I don't know what do they call it where
Speaker 1: you live, let me know, okay, So went to the
Speaker 1: liquor store party store situation. When I picked it up,
Speaker 1: I saw that all the labels were completely different, and
Speaker 1: I felt a hand on my shoulder and heard my
Speaker 1: friend's voice in my ear clear as day, saying, I
Speaker 1: just wanted to let you know that I'm okay. Of course,
Speaker 1: there was no one there when I turned around, and
Speaker 1: I promptly broke down crying in front of nobody but
Speaker 1: God and the proprietor of Kentwood Liquor. When I got back,
Speaker 1: still just beside myself with a combination of tears and
Speaker 1: be mused laughter. I told my wife, who replied, of course,
Speaker 1: that's how he'd come back and reassure you with a
Speaker 1: loving eye roll. The story sounds silly to type, but
Speaker 1: it was definitely him saying goodbye, and it's good to
Speaker 1: know that silly, juvenile traditions can transcend even death itself.
Speaker 1: Rip Kyle, thank you for sending me that. I always
Speaker 1: love those kinds of stories of friends and loved ones
Speaker 1: coming back and still having that sense of humor. I
Speaker 1: mean that really keeps me gieing and not afraid of
Speaker 1: death like I once was. The more I hear stories
Speaker 1: like that of your sense of humor can still live on,
Speaker 1: and I just think that's beautiful. So thank you. I
Speaker 1: know it sounds silly to type, but it's you're telling
Speaker 1: it to the right crowd of people we get to,
Speaker 1: So thank you for sending me that. Okay, here is
Speaker 1: the first part of this conversation with Michelle as we
Speaker 1: talk about the psychic stuff, and of course, like always,
Speaker 1: if you want a little bit more, go on over
Speaker 1: to patreon dot com slash rosdres Flees. There's also a
Speaker 1: link in the description of this episode and on my
Speaker 1: second tier I have a couple of bonus clips. Now
Speaker 1: this is a proper two parter, okay, Michelle, and I
Speaker 1: will also give props to Michelle for this because it
Speaker 1: was so sweet. Michelle gave me an hour and forty
Speaker 1: minutes of her time. I mean, we really just kept
Speaker 1: going with this and it was just so great and
Speaker 1: it was I mean, we didn't cut anything out besides
Speaker 1: the Patreon clips. I mean, it was just NonStop. I
Speaker 1: loved at all. And so if you want to go
Speaker 1: to Patreon, you can hear a couple more stories and
Speaker 1: a little bit more of Michelle's abilities and we talk
Speaker 1: about this being that she encountered in New Orleans, and
Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about Portals to Hell and
Speaker 1: some of the things that she does psychically on that show.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so check that out. And then of course
Speaker 1: next week there will also be another bonus clip when
Speaker 1: we do our little Demon episode. And it always helps
Speaker 1: me out if you join Patreon, and I appreciate your support.
Speaker 1: So anyway, here we go, partner one with Michelle Belja
Speaker 1: on with the show. Oh my goodness, I am so excited.
Speaker 1: We have got Michelle Balane here. Hello, how are you?
Speaker 2: I am doing fantastic all things considered with and lockdown
Speaker 2: and everything else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, what has this past year been like
Speaker 1: for in a cult expert psychic slash energy workers slash
Speaker 1: psychic vampire. I mean you do a million things. I mean,
Speaker 1: what is how has your life been?
Speaker 2: Sort of weird but also sort of exactly the same.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I'm not doing television stuff or appearing
Speaker 2: for any conventions, I prefer to be home. So I'm,
Speaker 2: you know, hanging out in my big old house in
Speaker 2: Ohio with all of my books, doing research, reading, occasionally
Speaker 2: screaming on the internet at things that I find stupid,
Speaker 2: We're annoying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can really, But of all these things that
Speaker 1: you do, like what do you do you relate to
Speaker 1: one more? Or like how does how does that work
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: It's sort of all of a piece of, like I guess,
Speaker 2: a broader identity. I'm clergy within pagan and energy workers circles,
Speaker 2: and like that's part of it. I guess it just
Speaker 2: is all part of my personal practice, my identity, my
Speaker 2: relationship with energy, the work I do with spirits, the
Speaker 2: psychic stuff, the research, like it's the research feeds into
Speaker 2: understanding myself and my experience is better. My experiences help
Speaker 2: me have stuff to help teach people better and kind
Speaker 2: of go like, this is how this works for me.
Speaker 2: Don't know if it will work this way for you,
Speaker 2: but here's what I learned. And I guess if there's
Speaker 2: one god. I'm terrible when people are like, well, what's
Speaker 2: one word we can put on your log line? I'm
Speaker 2: like a mystic teacher, right, professional weirdo.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I love about today's day and age,
Speaker 1: is like there's just such this movement that I am
Speaker 1: very much a part of of, just like one word
Speaker 1: does not need to define anybody, you know, like we
Speaker 1: there's so much nuance in this world and you can
Speaker 1: be so many different things at once. I was just
Speaker 1: curious with you, like there's just you do so many
Speaker 1: things I like. And also great website, by the way,
Speaker 1: you have a very comprehensive website with so many things
Speaker 1: about you that that's why I'm like, you're one of
Speaker 1: these people that's like both really easy to like interview,
Speaker 1: but also there's just so much to talk about.
Speaker 2: Trust me, it's really hard when people are like, could
Speaker 2: you write a bio? Like where would you like me
Speaker 2: to focus?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk about the psychic stuff, because
Speaker 1: now I'm it's very well known that I am a huge,
Speaker 1: huge fan of Portals to Hell. I love that TV
Speaker 1: show so much. I have had Katrina on this show twice.
Speaker 1: I've had Jack on the show, and with them you
Speaker 1: have come up because I'm just blown away by what
Speaker 1: you do on that show. And so I mean, I'm curious,
Speaker 1: just you know, I guess the psychic origin story. How
Speaker 1: did you find out you were psychic? How's that been
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: So? I grew up in a tiny little town here
Speaker 2: in northeast Ohio called Hinkley, and Hinkley celebrates the return
Speaker 2: of Turkey vultures every year on the IDEs of March
Speaker 2: with pancakes and sausage. No shit, Okay, I gives you
Speaker 2: an idea of like kind of like how rural small
Speaker 2: town it is. But at the same time, I was
Speaker 2: raised in a family where psychic stuff was pretty normal,
Speaker 2: like it was okay to talk about Lots of people
Speaker 2: had experiences. I would say that it was an environment
Speaker 2: where we weren't encouraged to just swallow the beliefs without
Speaker 2: thinking about them. My grandmother, her older sister, and her
Speaker 2: younger brother were the ones who mainly raised me. My
Speaker 2: grandmother's older sister was a social worker who had been
Speaker 2: working to become a psychiatrist. So I got a lot
Speaker 2: of early exposure to psychology and the idea of like
Speaker 2: psychosomatism and how our perceptions can be misinterpreted as a
Speaker 2: good counterbalance to the sort of Irish American lore about
Speaker 2: the second sight, and you know, family abilities that I
Speaker 2: got from my grandmother and such. And on top of that,
Speaker 2: like I was just an early reader, and you know,
Speaker 2: everybody has a different way they interface with learning, and
Speaker 2: for me, it's a book first, Like I want to
Speaker 2: read it in a book. I want to read every
Speaker 2: single book on that topic, take a whole bunch of notes,
Speaker 2: and then sit with it and go But what do
Speaker 2: I think? Hmm? And I think that comes out with
Speaker 2: a lot of my psychic stuff because I'm not only
Speaker 2: an experiencer. I'm also I let myself dive into the
Speaker 2: experience in the moment, and then I step back and
Speaker 2: get as much objectivity as it is possible to have
Speaker 2: over your own experiences and analyze it.
Speaker 1: God, I love that, I'll be honest, I get nervous
Speaker 1: talking to psychics sometimes on this podcast because a lot
Speaker 1: of experiences I've had, they're very like, this is what
Speaker 1: this is, this is how it's done. And I like
Speaker 1: I like that open minded approach to analyzing, and I
Speaker 1: like what you said about like this is what works
Speaker 1: for me, you know. I like that. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: I mean I've been doing it for you know, nearly
Speaker 2: fifty years now, pushing fifty, and there's no one right answer,
Speaker 2: like I'm still learning how all of this works. One
Speaker 2: of the things that I love about working on Portals
Speaker 2: to Hell specifically is Katrina knows me from Paranormal State
Speaker 2: days and kind of knows the very strict protocols I
Speaker 2: hold myself to. And Jack is a very open mind experiencers,
Speaker 2: so once he learned kind of like what my rules
Speaker 2: were for doing stuff, he was all for it. Because
Speaker 2: for me, as much as it's you know, yay, I'm
Speaker 2: on TV and this is cool, it's I get to
Speaker 2: go someplace that I've probably never heard of before, and
Speaker 2: we make every effort to make sure that it's someplace
Speaker 2: I haven't heard of before and just sort of get
Speaker 2: dumped in and see what comes and then have these
Speaker 2: other awesome people around me who can do the research
Speaker 2: to see if I'm talking out on my butt or
Speaker 2: if there's really something that I've done. So it's kind
Speaker 2: of like this long, extended I won't call it a
Speaker 2: laboratory experiment because there's no way to have laboratory protocols,
Speaker 2: but it's as close to a personal experiment as I
Speaker 2: can really delve into.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, what you do is you for
Speaker 1: anyone that hasn't seen that, which I imagine a lot
Speaker 1: of people listening to this do watch that show because
Speaker 1: it's like I talk about it all the time, But
Speaker 1: so you you go into these spaces blindfolded. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: what is that? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2: That actually came from an episode of Paranormal State, where
Speaker 2: I think probably on the back end, it was one
Speaker 2: of the producers just kind of going like, how do
Speaker 2: we spice things up. We'll have Michelle Tip have blindfolds
Speaker 2: for one episode. And because I am a very analytic
Speaker 2: person and I kind of had that rational dialogue going
Speaker 2: on in my head all the time of like is
Speaker 2: this me reading the location? Is this reading people's body language?
Speaker 2: Is this me like seeing a little boy who's the
Speaker 2: blonde hair because I just saw a photo that looked
Speaker 2: like that, you know, five rooms away. When we had
Speaker 2: the option of the blindfold, it opened so much up
Speaker 2: because I just I stopped second guessing and I just
Speaker 2: spewed out whatever I picked up. And when I saw
Speaker 2: that particular episode, one of the ones where that happened,
Speaker 2: Like there's a point where like Ryan has me standing
Speaker 2: in front of something and I'm describing what I'm saying
Speaker 2: in front of and I think at some point, like
Speaker 2: the folks who had had that like assumed that the
Speaker 2: blindfold wasn't real, but it was the sleep mask that
Speaker 2: I used, and trust me, like that was meant to
Speaker 2: like block out all light and all everything because I'm
Speaker 2: a light sleeper and I just I liked it so
Speaker 2: much that I kept it and it's been a fantastic
Speaker 2: addition to my practice with portals. I'm really lucky that
Speaker 2: Katrina knew like why I used that so much, and
Speaker 2: Jack was like sure, So, like they blindfolded me from
Speaker 2: the time, like they stick me up in some hotel
Speaker 2: and then they blindfold me as they picked me up.
Speaker 2: They filmed that whole process. You know, somewhere there's video
Speaker 2: of me talking about like getting blindfolded and what feels
Speaker 2: like in the car, and you know, all that stuff.
Speaker 2: And on a few occasions, in the most recent one,
Speaker 2: like I've had images that were clear enough that I
Speaker 2: needed to draw them, and they are so respectful of
Speaker 2: those boundaries that, for I think it was the Paulding
Speaker 2: jail one, they moved me into this van. They parked
Speaker 2: it in a blind alley, so like if even if
Speaker 2: I looked around the van, all I had were bricks
Speaker 2: around me, so there was no chance so I could
Speaker 2: kind of peek it up a little bit and actually
Speaker 2: draw and not look like I was, you know, drawing
Speaker 2: stick figures literally blindfolded, because nobody needed to see that.
Speaker 2: It was bad enough as it was.
Speaker 1: I have this idea of psychic abilities that maybe everyone
Speaker 1: or a lot of people have these abilities, they're just
Speaker 1: too caught up in that trying to rationalize. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you think that there's truth to that?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. I would say that people who don't have
Speaker 2: abilities are the exception, not the rule. And I mean
Speaker 2: I won't rule out that there are some people who
Speaker 2: basically need glasses for their third eye. To make a
Speaker 2: kind of joke about it, it's not like we have
Speaker 2: corrective lends for that. But there are some people who
Speaker 2: just don't see to quite have the abilities quite in focus.
Speaker 2: But the vast majority of folks do, and they I
Speaker 2: actually believe that they are so natural to us, not
Speaker 2: even paranormal or weird, that we don't realize when they're
Speaker 2: influencing us when we make decisions based on them. Like
Speaker 2: we talk in language about having a gut instinct, we
Speaker 2: talk about like just sort of following a feeling, we
Speaker 2: talk about intuition. Sometimes we meet people and we have
Speaker 2: an immediate reaction to them, and if we stop to
Speaker 2: deconstruct where that comes from, there's, in my opinion, always
Speaker 2: some aspect that isn't going to simply come down to.
Speaker 2: They reminded me of someone I didn't like before their
Speaker 2: body language was different. Like there's our perceptions are all
Speaker 2: of a piece, both the psychological cues we get from
Speaker 2: the world around us, the physical cues, the things from
Speaker 2: our five physical senses, and then this sort of constant
Speaker 2: running dialogue of something else you can't always put your
Speaker 2: finger on, but you are definitely picking up on and
Speaker 2: reacting to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I identify as non binary, transfeminine, and I talk
Speaker 1: to a lot of people that are also trans or
Speaker 1: non binary or queer, and there seems to be I've
Speaker 1: had this conversation, and I don't like to generalize with
Speaker 1: any group of people, but I've had these conversations with
Speaker 1: people like me in that way that we think that, like,
Speaker 1: maybe there's no doubt we are these magical creatures. But
Speaker 1: if we like, is there any truth to the fact
Speaker 1: that people you know on that aren't cis gender or
Speaker 1: hetero or have these abilities, I.
Speaker 2: Think there's two things going on with that. If we
Speaker 2: dig into world traditions and different cultures, there is a
Speaker 2: very vibrant and belief system of folks who fall in between,
Speaker 2: as kind of being called by their very identity, to
Speaker 2: walk between, to be perceptive to reality in between the cracks,
Speaker 2: to be outside of what is considered normal space, and
Speaker 2: therefore have access to what is considered unusual, extraordinary space.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, I also think that those
Speaker 2: of us who had to take the time to really
Speaker 2: ask ourselves, who am I, regardless of what the world says,
Speaker 2: how do I feel? How do I experience things? How
Speaker 2: do I listen and accept that that opens us up
Speaker 2: to all of the possibilities inside of who we are.
Speaker 2: We have learned to listen to something even if the
Speaker 2: world has told us that's not possible or that's not
Speaker 2: our right. And I think for many of us that
Speaker 2: extends to all of the other rich, fantastic and magical
Speaker 2: things that we are.
Speaker 1: Right. Yes, I think that too, that having an open
Speaker 1: mind can open your mind to a lot of different things.
Speaker 1: You know, That's what I think about sometimes with like
Speaker 1: paranormal investigators and stuff. Just you know, you can't just
Speaker 1: have your mind open to the idea of ghosts being real,
Speaker 1: but then have a closed mind to other things in
Speaker 1: this world being a reality, or you know, do you
Speaker 1: get what I mean? Like there's I think sometimes it's
Speaker 1: like I just think it's a good thing to keep
Speaker 1: your mind open to any possibility, both supernatural or or not. No,
Speaker 1: totally or is that dangerous?
Speaker 2: No? No, I totally agree with you. And I think
Speaker 2: we're starting to get closer to that. You know, fifteen
Speaker 2: twenty years ago and even before you know, you had
Speaker 2: which is witchcraft over and it's little corner, and you
Speaker 2: had psychic people over in their little corner, and you
Speaker 2: had the UFO people in their corner, and the Bigfoot people,
Speaker 2: and like everybody was experiencing extraordinary stuff from their own framework,
Speaker 2: and there's definitely crossover between all of these aspects of
Speaker 2: paranormal and supernatural just just unusual things. But when we
Speaker 2: put them in little labeled boxes and assume that those
Speaker 2: boxes are anything other than the arbitrary walls that we've
Speaker 2: built to just make it easier at first, we lose
Speaker 2: the richness. And hellure is an interesting thing because they
Speaker 2: really kind of they've started to dig into you know,
Speaker 2: it's not just ghosts. What if there's a correlation between
Speaker 2: ghost experiences in a place but also UFO experiences in
Speaker 2: a place, and also you know reports of like ferries
Speaker 2: or changelings are goblins, So let's let's investigate all of
Speaker 2: it and see what people are talking about, like what's
Speaker 2: behind the reports and the language.
Speaker 1: Right, I know they're doing a lot of that at
Speaker 1: Skinwalker Ranch as well, But yeah, I think that I
Speaker 1: think that that goes along with like everything in life,
Speaker 1: to be honest, Like I'm hoping that our culture is
Speaker 1: getting to a place where we're not putting people in
Speaker 1: these boxes and closing our minds off to all of
Speaker 1: why we are so similar and why we are Our
Speaker 1: differences are our beauties. Yes, it's what makes us so special.
Speaker 2: We're in the middle of this fantastic, scary, alchemical moment
Speaker 2: in time where we are deconstructing our labels and our
Speaker 2: identities and our assumptions and analyzing, like going like what works?
Speaker 2: What actually works? What is stuff that was simply handed
Speaker 2: to us that we grabbed because we didn't have any
Speaker 2: other choice, or we thought we didn't have any other choice.
Speaker 2: What happens when we really exist in a truly global
Speaker 2: worldview and everybody has a place and everybody has a
Speaker 2: voice and they can express that how they wish.
Speaker 1: You know, with your psychic abilities, I mean, do you
Speaker 1: see into the future or you know, how does how
Speaker 1: does it manifest for you? I mean I know about
Speaker 1: the medium ship and the visions, and I mean how
Speaker 1: you how many you know? I mean, why am I
Speaker 1: trying to ask? I have a hard time asking. Quote,
Speaker 1: I'm so in awe of you. I'm not even gonna
Speaker 1: lie that. I'm like starstruck and like also taking in
Speaker 1: so many things right now that you're saying. But you know,
Speaker 1: as as a psychic and a medium, I mean, what
Speaker 1: kind of abilities do you have. I feel like that's
Speaker 1: a condescending question.
Speaker 2: No, No, it's.
Speaker 1: Coming from a place of have love and curiosity.
Speaker 2: I don't find it condescending at all. It's a question
Speaker 2: I get a lot because again, labels and words are
Speaker 2: weird and complex things, right, and kind of the I
Speaker 2: don't know the archetype that you see in media. Psychics
Speaker 2: for telling the future or whatever. It's. Psychics are really
Speaker 2: broad label and I think it covers a whole lot
Speaker 2: of things. For me, If I had to identify my abilities,
Speaker 2: it starts with my ability to pick up what I
Speaker 2: identify is the energy of people. This is also how
Speaker 2: my identity as a psychic is kind of you can't
Speaker 2: pull it apart from my identity as a psychic vampire.
Speaker 2: There's the energy that people have, and I pick up
Speaker 2: the energy of the living first, their vitality, their emotions,
Speaker 2: snippets of thoughts, what they leave behind in rooms where
Speaker 2: they've been, what they leave on items that were important
Speaker 2: to them. And my extension and spirits are also energy,
Speaker 2: and so that's another layer that I pick up. But
Speaker 2: I definitely not all the time, but also experienced things
Speaker 2: in dreams and dream work. Have had a few kind
Speaker 2: of startling dreams that foretold something that happened in the future,
Speaker 2: some of which were just completely mundane, and a couple
Speaker 2: of which were really unnerving and startling. Probably the biggest one,
Speaker 2: and it was a lesson learned, was when I was
Speaker 2: in seventh grade, I had a dream about the Space
Speaker 2: Shuttle launch going horribly awry the next day. And there
Speaker 2: were some very specific things. There was the class period
Speaker 2: that it happened in, There were there was a bunch
Speaker 2: of stuff about it. So suffice to say that seventh
Speaker 2: grade me was sitting there about, you know, crapping myself
Speaker 2: when the news came over the thing, because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I dreamed that, like, and anybody who has even one
Speaker 2: or two visions of the future has this moment of
Speaker 2: like could I have done something? Should I have done something? Like?
Speaker 2: Was I given this for a reason? Should I have
Speaker 2: changed the course of history? Like what? Even? And I
Speaker 2: went home and I talked to my grandmother about it,
Speaker 2: and bless her heart, but like the first thing she
Speaker 2: said was anybody can be psychic after the fact. And
Speaker 2: while that was a little harsh in the moment as
Speaker 2: we talked about it, it was what I learned was
Speaker 2: if that happens again, write it down before the thing
Speaker 2: you've foreseen happens one so you are better able to
Speaker 2: recognize that this is actually something for telling the future
Speaker 2: as opposed to just a random dream or you know,
Speaker 2: a stress dream or whatever. But also so you've got
Speaker 2: a record realistically, She's like, you're in seventh grade, who
Speaker 2: would like if you called up NASA, Like like, really,
Speaker 2: that wasn't going to change anything, like maybe, yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: you got this just a bear witness to it, like
Speaker 2: just except that sometimes these things happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a difficult situation to be in. What
Speaker 1: do you do with that knowledge? You know? And I imagine,
Speaker 1: especially at seventh grade time is so sensitive of like
Speaker 1: I don't want to be the person that's going to go,
Speaker 1: you know, saying to people that this is going to
Speaker 1: crash today, Like right, you know that that's that's a
Speaker 1: scary place to be, you know, grad you're.
Speaker 2: Trying to figure out you're so much of your own
Speaker 2: crap that.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, you're worrying about.
Speaker 2: The pimple you have on your forehead, not whether or
Speaker 2: not you should go call NASA to forestall a national emergency.
Speaker 2: Like it was just and and and that one is
Speaker 2: like probably the most extreme example I have, Like literally
Speaker 2: most of the other ones are like dreaming about in
Speaker 2: the sign I'm going to get the next day where
Speaker 2: I end up asking myself, like I said, actually for
Speaker 2: telling the future? Or was I picking up the thoughts
Speaker 2: of so somebody liked, did I just kind of eavesdrop
Speaker 2: on the professor? Like I don't always know the answer.
Speaker 1: Did you ever see Final Destination?
Speaker 2: I am familiar with the series, I haven't seen all
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: Though, because that sounds a lot like the first Final Destination?
Speaker 1: What happened to you? Because he has a premonition of
Speaker 1: in airplane crashing and then as he's about to get
Speaker 1: on it, and then it does crash, and it's and
Speaker 1: it's again that like he what do you do with
Speaker 1: that knowledge?
Speaker 2: Well, and if you act on it to avoid the
Speaker 2: thing that you foresaw, then it doesn't happen and you
Speaker 2: have no way to know if what you foresaw was real.
Speaker 2: We're just right anxiety. And if you don't act on it,
Speaker 2: you're like, well, well crap.
Speaker 1: Well, so by the seventh grade and when that happened,
Speaker 1: I mean, were you already having these experiences?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah, I had stuff, So I guess a
Speaker 2: little bit more background on me is I was born
Speaker 2: with what's called a ventricular septle defect, which is to say,
Speaker 2: my heart was very screwed up when I was born,
Speaker 2: and I was born in the early seventies, which meant
Speaker 2: that it was kind of an emergency thing, like there
Speaker 2: was not a high chance that I would live past
Speaker 2: the age of five, and the surgeries were super risky
Speaker 2: and in fact, like the one that would have saved
Speaker 2: my life, they couldn't do until I actually could wait
Speaker 2: enough to be on the heart lung machine they had
Speaker 2: available at the time. So there was a lot of
Speaker 2: dodgy stuff going on when I was little, which also
Speaker 2: meant that there were a lot of conversations when I
Speaker 2: was tiny about life and death, what comes after, and
Speaker 2: like really adult conversations. I had a lot of fairly
Speaker 2: traumatic experiences, and you know, my mother confirmed that there
Speaker 2: were a couple of you know, legitimate like which time
Speaker 2: that you died on the operating table deer, just very
Speaker 2: casually because that was just a thing. So there's that
Speaker 2: argument that psychic abilities are enhanced by near death experiences. Personally,
Speaker 2: I think I kind of came out of the box
Speaker 2: with these abilities. But I also think that those experiences
Speaker 2: as a tiny child really helped, I don't know, make
Speaker 2: it more accessible, make it easier to talk about, make
Speaker 2: me less fearful of any kind of repercussions. I mean,
Speaker 2: when you're facing down death at three or four and
Speaker 2: your family's like legitimately talking to you about that, there's
Speaker 2: not many things that are going to scare you after that.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I mean, had you now do you
Speaker 1: see like spirits and do you see you know, past
Speaker 1: people that have passed.
Speaker 2: When I was tiny, I saw them as if they
Speaker 2: were physically there. The first ghost that I know for
Speaker 2: certain I perceived the small town Hinckley had. It was
Speaker 2: a local residence. They were turning into the public library,
Speaker 2: and unbeknownst to me at the time, multiple people were
Speaker 2: seeing what they were calling the Lady in Blue. I
Speaker 2: was four. I know. It was shortly before my final
Speaker 2: heart surgery, so it was a summer that Star Wars
Speaker 2: came out and we went there. My mom knew the librarian.
Speaker 2: She got talking to the librarian. There's like all these
Speaker 2: places where I wasn't supposed to go, and construction tape
Speaker 2: and whatnot. So I was the kid who as soon
Speaker 2: as Mom turned her back, I went exactly where I
Speaker 2: wasn't supposed to go, which which led me upstairs to
Speaker 2: a room that was disappointingly empty of anything beyond like
Speaker 2: painting supplies and whatnot. Except there was a woman who
Speaker 2: was standing at the window. And the thing is is,
Speaker 2: at that time I saw her and parsed her as
Speaker 2: if she were a real flesh and blood, living person.
Speaker 2: I saw the buttons all up and down the back
Speaker 2: of her dress, the weird sort of poofy shoulder bits
Speaker 2: on her sleeves, and the way that they went down
Speaker 2: really tight on her fore arms, and all the little
Speaker 2: buttons there and that, like the tiny little blue flowers
Speaker 2: that were like like almost look hand embroidered on this
Speaker 2: dress and her hair.
Speaker 1: Okay, she was turning out a look yeah.
Speaker 2: No, like oh she had she had a very distinct look.
Speaker 2: And she's just looking out the window. She never said anything.
Speaker 2: She turned and she looked at me U And you know,
Speaker 2: if I had the word melancholy at the time, I
Speaker 2: would have said that she looked melancholy. She looked back
Speaker 2: out the window. Mom. Mom called up for me. Finally,
Speaker 2: realizing that I wasn't there, and I kind of like
Speaker 2: duck partly out of the door. I never got in,
Speaker 2: like like, I stopped in the door because you know,
Speaker 2: here's some adult in here. And I called back to
Speaker 2: Mom to let her know them I'm coming. You know
Speaker 2: that flush of guilt that you have because you got caught.
Speaker 2: And in the time that I turned my head away
Speaker 2: and turned back, she wasn't in the room anymore, and
Speaker 2: I was standing in the only door that went in
Speaker 2: and out. So of course, four year old live told
Speaker 2: me that she found a hiding place because she wasn't
Speaker 2: supposed to be up there either. But it made an
Speaker 2: impression on me. I remember the encounter. I talked about
Speaker 2: it a little bit, you know, didn't get any pushback,
Speaker 2: but it was it was years later that I found
Speaker 2: The person I saw was someone who was described by
Speaker 2: multiple people, and her name was Rebecca. She had lived
Speaker 2: in the house with her brother. He had been like
Speaker 2: the school teacher in the early eighteen hundreds. She had
Speaker 2: died like an old maid at thirty eight or something
Speaker 2: like at thirty It might be twenty eight. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was like a ridiculous number where it's like seriously, guys.
Speaker 2: But she was known for her needle point which I
Speaker 2: saw her dress as white with blue flowers. Most people
Speaker 2: reported her as the Lady in Blue, and I really
Speaker 2: kind of hold to the fact that she showed up
Speaker 2: in that dress so intently because she had hands own
Speaker 2: that Like, this is totally my own head canon about it,
Speaker 2: but I think that was a factor for why she
Speaker 2: showed up so intently. But what I will say is,
Speaker 2: as I got older, and not because anybody told me
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to see ghosts, but I think just
Speaker 2: as I learned better to navigate the perceptions these days,
Speaker 2: it's more that I'm seeing something with my mind's eye.
Speaker 2: I am an incredibly visual person and so it's usually
Speaker 2: quite vivid, but it's not as if I see them
Speaker 2: physically standing in the room. Every once in a while,
Speaker 2: I do, and I'll be honest, it throws me because
Speaker 2: I don't expect it.
Speaker 1: Hmm, yeah, I imagine. Do you think that you know?
Speaker 1: Even with now again, like we've kind of established that
Speaker 1: everyone kind of has psychic abilities, but there's always that
Speaker 1: conversation of little kids are more connected. I mean, would
Speaker 1: you say that that is what you just described, you
Speaker 1: think that's similar with most children as well, ye with
Speaker 1: you know, why they stop seeing ghosts as they get older.
Speaker 2: I think there's a number of factors for kids. I
Speaker 2: mean some of it is literally like they just haven't
Speaker 2: thought that they can't, Like nothing about their experience has
Speaker 2: told them that this person shouldn't be standing there, and
Speaker 2: so they simply react to as to it as if
Speaker 2: they would anything else in their environment, their little sponges
Speaker 2: for experience and perception. I think as kids start to
Speaker 2: go to school, start to socialize, start to i don't know,
Speaker 2: get a better handle just on a physiological level and
Speaker 2: also like a personal psychological level of how they interface
Speaker 2: with the world, they start to kind of narrow their
Speaker 2: focus again, just because that's part of surviving in this life,
Speaker 2: Like you start to rule out the stuff that nobody
Speaker 2: else is talking about that doesn't seem to be the
Speaker 2: focus of what you're learning about. Sure, and certainly there
Speaker 2: there's families and school systems and situations where people start
Speaker 2: to be like actually suppressed, Like if they continue to
Speaker 2: talk about it, oh, you know, that's just your imagine
Speaker 2: cerinary friend, that's you know, all in your head. But
Speaker 2: I think there is an aspect. That's simply how we
Speaker 2: develop and settle into living this this thing called life.
Speaker 2: Like we we don't need to in most cases perceive
Speaker 2: the spirits and the other things around us. We do
Speaker 2: need to worry about the car that's on the road
Speaker 2: that we're crossing. We do need to worry about how
Speaker 2: we do our ABC's and you know, how to interface
Speaker 2: with the other living kids around us. And that's hard enough,
Speaker 2: Like that takes up so much space in our brains.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when was the last time that you saw a
Speaker 1: ghost where it threw you off?
Speaker 2: The one that comes to mind specifically, Well, if we
Speaker 2: don't count an animal ghost, because that's happened to couple times.
Speaker 2: There was a Paranormal State episode where uh, I actually right,
Speaker 2: Ryan had me on a walk through and this was
Speaker 2: before the blindfold times. So we're going through this house
Speaker 2: in Maryland, and you know, we've got a crew around
Speaker 2: us all the time, and I think the episode before that,
Speaker 2: i'd sort of like I liked opening doors and poking
Speaker 2: my nose into closets and sort of seeing what was
Speaker 2: going on. And there was a point where I opened
Speaker 2: a door and there was someone who from the crew
Speaker 2: who had like hidden in there because they like were
Speaker 2: at the last minute, so like it was like kind
Speaker 2: of an unintended jump scare for the both of us.
Speaker 2: So what I thought was going on in this house
Speaker 2: in Maryland was I caught a guy, uh walking into
Speaker 2: this room and then ducking into what I assumed was
Speaker 2: a closet, and I just like my eyes darted that
Speaker 2: way and I kind of went, oh, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to pay attention to that because that looks like a
Speaker 2: crew member and that's probably got nothing to do with
Speaker 2: this haunting. Ryan caught the look and like knew enough
Speaker 2: about my body lane, which at that point he's like,
Speaker 2: what what what caught your attention in that room? I'm like, uh,
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to say pretty sure it's a
Speaker 2: crew member Ryan, like right on camera, but he finally
Speaker 2: like pulled it out of me, and I'm like, I
Speaker 2: saw a person wearing this and this and this and
Speaker 2: they walked into that room, and I'm pretty sure it's
Speaker 2: somebody on the crew and he's like, are you sure.
Speaker 2: So we go into the room and uh, what I
Speaker 2: thought was a bathroom that this person ducked into was
Speaker 2: a blank wall.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, ghost yeah, And as I.
Speaker 2: As it turned out it was. It was one of
Speaker 2: the Sun's rooms. And one of the things that he
Speaker 2: was complaining about was seeing a guy who matched the
Speaker 2: description of what I saw and like literally was certain
Speaker 2: this was with my physical eyes, walking exactly that path
Speaker 2: which took him across like the foot of their bed
Speaker 2: and then almost to the wall, and then they would
Speaker 2: make a sharp right turn and then just disappear into
Speaker 2: a wall. And no, you like, like I I think
Speaker 2: about it now, and I'm like that that was a person,
Speaker 2: like like I saw that as a person, Like there
Speaker 2: was no sense there was there was no point at
Speaker 2: which if I had just casually had that experience on
Speaker 2: anything other than a paranormal show, wouldn't have thought anything
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Oh, I have one more psychic question. And this is
Speaker 1: also every time I talk to a psychic. I I
Speaker 1: want it. I really want it to be clear that
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be like, oh, yeah, why didn't
Speaker 1: you win the lotto? Like I never want to be
Speaker 1: that person, because I'm not at all. But I was
Speaker 1: wondering with like, when you did the blindfold thing, you
Speaker 1: really it really is that kind of like blood hound feeling, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like you really seem to like sniff out at location
Speaker 1: and find things. Can you do that, like if you
Speaker 1: lose keys or something like that, if you're trying to
Speaker 1: find something.
Speaker 2: As long as I don't get in my own way.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that it's at least as
Speaker 2: tricky for me is if it is my own stuff,
Speaker 2: I am so entangled with it that it's hard to find.
Speaker 2: It's hard to listen to the actual intuition over the
Speaker 2: I really want to find my freaking keys. And this
Speaker 2: is also why I've had a number of people reach
Speaker 2: out to me with some really tragic things, where like
Speaker 2: they want me to find the scattered, dismembered remains of
Speaker 2: their murdered family member. Like it's actually gutting how many
Speaker 2: people have reached out with specifically that, like, like, there
Speaker 2: shouldn't be this many people with this problem, and yet
Speaker 2: they are. And I have to always explain like how
Speaker 2: my abilities work, like you see the ghost aspect of
Speaker 2: the medium aspect on TV. But that's actually kind of
Speaker 2: If I have a list of like ten things I do,
Speaker 2: that's probably number four or five. And for me, the
Speaker 2: loudest thing is always how a person feels, you know,
Speaker 2: we toss out the word mpath a lot, and and
Speaker 2: mpath is definitely a part of my ability cluster. So
Speaker 2: when a person reaches out to me and is like,
Speaker 2: and they have all of these feelings and all these
Speaker 2: expectations and they really want to end in heaven, they
Speaker 2: have like a whole bunch of ideas of what it
Speaker 2: really is, I pick all that up first, and it's
Speaker 2: so hard to pick anything else past that, Like, it's
Speaker 2: really hard. It's like it's broken my objectivity. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I don't feel confident and I the rules that I
Speaker 2: set for myself, especially if it's something that is that
Speaker 2: important to someone. And I know finding keys is not
Speaker 2: really that important, but in the moment sometimes it is.
Speaker 2: We're like you, once your emotions get involved, it's really
Speaker 2: hard to pick past all of that for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine, because I feel like I have
Speaker 1: this idea that there are psychics that homicide detectives higher.
Speaker 1: I mean, is that a thing?
Speaker 2: So I have a number of friends in law enforcement,
Speaker 2: and I know that it has definitely been promoted on
Speaker 2: a lot of television shows like this is a regular thing.
Speaker 2: I do know that in a few rare cases it
Speaker 2: has happened, but what I want to pose as someone
Speaker 2: who works with homicide detectives in some completely different venues,
Speaker 2: not psychic ones. What you really want your homicide detectives
Speaker 2: or other detectives to do is to come up with demonstrable,
Speaker 2: provable facts, and if there is any application for a
Speaker 2: psychic in that, they might be able to point someone
Speaker 2: toward where actual evidence can be found. But in the
Speaker 2: end it has to it must come down to hard
Speaker 2: police work to find physical evidence that can then go
Speaker 2: through the legal system, because the last thing anybody ever wants,
Speaker 2: the last thing we ever ever need, is for someone
Speaker 2: like me to be able to go, Oh, that person
Speaker 2: over there is a murderer, you should go investigate them.
Speaker 2: And I say it like that because we sat in
Speaker 2: on a supposed psychic who swore up and down in
Speaker 2: her presentation that she worked with the police all the
Speaker 2: time and would just pick murderers out off the street
Speaker 2: and have them arrested, which if you just apply a
Speaker 2: little bit of logic to how the world works, that
Speaker 2: it does not work that way. Like the guy I
Speaker 2: was sitting next to happened to also be a police officer,
Speaker 2: and he had to leave because he could not control
Speaker 2: Like he just he almost started just yelling at her
Speaker 2: from behind, because it's just that's how it works, and
Speaker 2: nobody would want it to work that way. When I've
Speaker 2: been asked to do psychic stuff in connection to these
Speaker 2: investigations I have, it has been after the investigation has
Speaker 2: been solved, all of the details of like murder or
Speaker 2: whatever have been handled, and there's just a couple of
Speaker 2: things that they would hope for, and they're totally like
Speaker 2: grasping at straws for to give the family some sense
Speaker 2: of closure. Ah Okay, at least that's been my experience.
Speaker 1: That made me think about another thing what you're talking
Speaker 1: about that psychic. Can you tell when someone's full of shit,
Speaker 1: whether they're a psychic or just in life.
Speaker 2: I mean, I like to think that everybody is born
Speaker 2: with a good functioning bullshit meter, and I heartily encourage
Speaker 2: everyone if something, if something sets that meter off, sit
Speaker 2: with that and ask some questions. I think I have
Speaker 2: a pretty good sense of it, and I think it's
Speaker 2: more than just psychic stuff, Like there's there's way ways
Speaker 2: you read people. And you know, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: pretend I don't have a background in psychology. Uh, with
Speaker 2: some of my college stuff and all of that said, Uh,
Speaker 2: I'd say my big achilles heel is if I'm way
Speaker 2: too emotionally entangled or invested. And I think any of
Speaker 2: us who've had a couple of bad axes like have
Speaker 2: had this experienced. If you're just if you're too close,
Speaker 2: you just don't see it. It doesn't matter. Yeah, how psychic,
Speaker 2: how perceptive, how much of a sherlock you are for
Speaker 2: everybody else, if you're too close, it's really hard to see.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Michelle, And don't you worry,
Speaker 1: there's way more. We've got the Demon episode next week
Speaker 1: with Michelle. Again. Michelle has written and done so much
Speaker 1: research and has so much of an education on religion
Speaker 1: and a cult practice and demons and demonology and all
Speaker 1: of that stuff. So it's a conversation you're not gonna
Speaker 1: want to miss That will be next week. And if
Speaker 1: you want to hear a little bit more, go to
Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Roz dress Faless and you can
Speaker 1: hear a couple more clips from this section of our conversation.
Speaker 1: As always, please send me your listener stories to ghosted
Speaker 1: by Roz at gmail dot com with the subject line
Speaker 1: listener episode and send them to me quick. Also, please
Speaker 1: join the Facebook group another great place to leave a
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Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram at Roz Hernandez venmo Queen Roz what
Speaker 1: am I missing? Oh? Five star review? Please please give
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Speaker 1: if you have something nice to say, you could leave
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Speaker 1: you all, both living and dead. But if I didn't
Speaker 1: ask you to haunt me, don't haunt me.
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