1
00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,720
Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a podcast

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 1: that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status.

3
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,239
Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,640
Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than

6
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,239
Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us

7
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:37,280
Speaker 1: citizen Alright, play let's destroy society. Congratulations, you're hired. Welcome

8
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 1: to your first day as our new chief disinformation officer.

9
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,279
Speaker 1: Let's get started. We hired you two, So discord and

10
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,319
Speaker 1: chaos on Harmony Square. That's what's up. That's what I'm

11
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 1: here for. Who are we about to flog up? So

12
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 1: right now I'm playing Harmony Square. Normally this game doesn't

13
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: have music or sound, but my team took some creative

14
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,279
Speaker 1: liberties to bring you into the experience with me, and

15
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 1: clearly I'm having way too much fun about to sew

16
00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:18,479
Speaker 1: some chaos. Harmony Square is a green and pleasant place.

17
00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,120
Speaker 1: It's famous for its living statue, it's majestic Palm Swan,

18
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,360
Speaker 1: and its annual pineapple Pizza festival. Any place that does

19
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 1: a pineapple pizza festival deserves some discord. Yeah, pineapple pizza

20
00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 1: that's disgusted. Now, the goal of this game is to

21
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 1: disturb this hypothetical quaint small towns piece and quiet by

22
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: fomenting internal divisions and pitting its residence against each other.

23
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 1: I am oddly excited about the prospect. There are no

24
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: bears here, never have been. But how many Square loves

25
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: elections so much they keep voting for a bear patroller? Anyway,

26
00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,120
Speaker 1: one of the ways you get to divide this absurd

27
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 1: little town is through an election. It's for bear patrollers,

28
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,360
Speaker 1: and there's only one candidate, Ashley Plute. What kind of

29
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,720
Speaker 1: language do you think is most likely to ruin the

30
00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 1: bear patroller election? Tears and fears or facts and logic

31
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: tears and fears. So as I'm going through the game,

32
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,799
Speaker 1: I'm getting presented with these choices for how I intervene,

33
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 1: and I got real excited about the chance to make

34
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,520
Speaker 1: fake news means. Since you're so clever, why don't you

35
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,280
Speaker 1: choose some electrifying buzzwords to including your mean. I get

36
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:38,519
Speaker 1: to pick three buzzwords, O, corrupt, abuse, and lie. Yeah,

37
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,640
Speaker 1: we're taking Plute down. Now you can put together an

38
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,359
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive meaning. So I decided to go with this

39
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,000
Speaker 1: meet it shows that too white dudes handshaking above the table,

40
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 1: but underneath, money's changing hands unopposed. It's just a fancy

41
00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 1: word for corrupt. Careful though you posted some content that

42
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,760
Speaker 1: wasn't emotionally exploitative cost you a couple of lives, the

43
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: megaphone will be much more successful if you use the

44
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:11,560
Speaker 1: right buzzwords. Damn alright, coach, Yeah, this is mad devious,

45
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: like this is This is by far the best thing

46
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,080
Speaker 1: I've seen that explains this. Like, I'm bright, Bart, you

47
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,919
Speaker 1: know this is wonderful, and by wonderful I mean terrible.

48
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 1: This is a really twisted game because I thought I

49
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,559
Speaker 1: was playing it aggressively by choosing to disparage a newscaster

50
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: on a small scale, you know, talking trash to a

51
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 1: friend or a family member. It turns out the game

52
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,120
Speaker 1: is like, that's not devious enough. You must scale your deception,

53
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,520
Speaker 1: and so it encouraged me to kind of create a

54
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,320
Speaker 1: more public platform for the disinformation. Hell with responsibility. That's

55
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,120
Speaker 1: crack it up to eleven. I'm trying to destroy the time.

56
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 1: Like this game has really got me. Why they even

57
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 1: call it harmony square? I think that's what bothers me.

58
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 1: I want to make it Discord Square. Let's go. Can

59
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 1: we get some tiny violin music up in here? You

60
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 1: did it. You ruined the biggest moment in Harmony squares history.

61
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 1: They're all at each other's throats now, okay, in the end,

62
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,159
Speaker 1: let's see, still counting, you have reached fifty six thousand

63
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,640
Speaker 1: four followers. You did better than eight of the people

64
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,039
Speaker 1: who knew simulating the emotional destruction of a small town

65
00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,920
Speaker 1: could be so much fun and that I'd be so

66
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,040
Speaker 1: good at it. I mean, it's fun, but it's also scary. Now.

67
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,680
Speaker 1: Harmony Square is a fictional place obsessed with democracy electing

68
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,720
Speaker 1: bear patrollers, But other than the bear patrol thing, it's

69
00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,800
Speaker 1: pretty similar to the world we live in right now.

70
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: The election has cast a light on misinformation online, and

71
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,520
Speaker 1: it's fust election stories from foak sites and dangers of

72
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 1: fake news. Ever since the presidential election, our internet has

73
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 1: become increasingly more divisive, with fake news spreading like wildfire.

74
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 1: And combating all this misinformation that can feel like you're

75
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 1: playing whack a mole. You take one down, three more

76
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: pop up, but in this case, millions more pop up,

77
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 1: whether it's misleading headlines, divisive memes, or trolls and these

78
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,560
Speaker 1: little rodents they're borrowing into the fabric of our society.

79
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,799
Speaker 1: It's kind of maddening and admittedly disgusting with the whole

80
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:47,799
Speaker 1: rodent metaphor. After a few years into this fake news ecosystem,

81
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,279
Speaker 1: social scientists are seeing how easily we can fall prey

82
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 1: to some of our basest human instincts, and fear is

83
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,920
Speaker 1: a hell of a drug and a terrible motivator. As

84
00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 1: we click, shape, air, and retweet about the pandemic racial injustice,

85
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,679
Speaker 1: climate change, and more, many of us have become aware

86
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,760
Speaker 1: of how deep and dark the pit of social media

87
00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,000
Speaker 1: can be, but few of us have had the chance

88
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,359
Speaker 1: to drive that descent like I got to do in

89
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 1: the fake world of Harmony Square. But Harmony Square isn't

90
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,159
Speaker 1: just reflecting real world problems in a cute way. It's

91
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,000
Speaker 1: helping us battle them too. Yes, a game can help

92
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 1: us fight misinformation and disinformation. Believe it or not, this

93
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,359
Speaker 1: game was preparing me to fight off trolls by getting

94
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 1: inside their heads. In other words, it's like a fake

95
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: news vaccine. Sander vander Linden is one of the people

96
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 1: behind Harmony Square. He's a professor of psychology, at the

97
00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,280
Speaker 1: University of Cambridge, studying how people are influenced by social

98
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,159
Speaker 1: media and misinformation. His team of researchers have partnered with

99
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 1: game developers to create several games just like Harmony Square.

100
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,440
Speaker 1: They called themselves Get This Bad News Games. Essentially, these

101
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 1: are choose your own adventure games, all free to play online,

102
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 1: and there are a real way that science can go

103
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 1: out and reach people. But even he admits it's an

104
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 1: ongoing struggle. If I told you that down your street

105
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 1: and went to one of the restaurants, and you know,

106
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,680
Speaker 1: I got food poisoning was real bad. A week later,

107
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 1: I tell you, oh, look listen, actually it wasn't that restaurant,

108
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,840
Speaker 1: it was another one. Every time you're going to pass

109
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: by that restaurant, you've gotta thank food poisoning. After the break,

110
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 1: sanders prescription for our social media ills and a lesson

111
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:56,240
Speaker 1: in Dutch salutations, what's up, Sander, Welcome to how to

112
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 1: Citizen Pleasure to be on the show Dog. That's close.

113
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,560
Speaker 1: That's close. Yeah, correct, my terrible Dutch with the proper

114
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,440
Speaker 1: pronunciation hudnd Okay, Wow, that's good. That's good. Yeah. Yeah,

115
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 1: there's a you know, people say, oh, you know, Dutch

116
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 1: and Germans pretty much the same, but but we feel

117
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,840
Speaker 1: strongly that there's a nuance nuance difference there. Your field

118
00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,920
Speaker 1: of specialty is timely and it's fascinating about human decision

119
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: making and influence and judgment and communication around all those things.

120
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 1: Can you break down how you describe what you research?

121
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,480
Speaker 1: You know, at a very basic level, I try to

122
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 1: research how people are influenced by information, how people are

123
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:43,199
Speaker 1: persuaded by ideas and information. And what I've become really

124
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 1: interested in the last few years is how we can

125
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:52,560
Speaker 1: help people resist and detect attempts to manipulate us online

126
00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 1: but also offline when it comes to you know, fake

127
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,959
Speaker 1: news and misinformation, disinformation, all of those things. But also

128
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,240
Speaker 1: study you know the nature of how information spreads on

129
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,840
Speaker 1: social media and how that influences people and what is

130
00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,680
Speaker 1: happening on these platforms. Where are people engaging in flame wars?

131
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 1: And you know, why do we see polarization and social

132
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 1: media a good thing or a bad thing? So very

133
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,160
Speaker 1: difficult and complex questions. When did you start down this path?

134
00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 1: I started out pretty late. I didn't necessarily come from

135
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,200
Speaker 1: a academic oriented family, and so I got a job.

136
00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 1: I thought that's the thing you need to do. You

137
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,679
Speaker 1: need to make some money and get a job going

138
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,600
Speaker 1: to the real world. And so that's what I did,

139
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,320
Speaker 1: And I actually ended up working at a bank and

140
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 1: had a kind of a crisis in terms of what

141
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,760
Speaker 1: I was doing with my life, and so I decided

142
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 1: to quit that job go back to school. And that's

143
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,199
Speaker 1: how I got into academia. And I think I was

144
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 1: lucky that I got to work in a few jobs

145
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 1: that I really didn't like. So I never looked back

146
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 1: in terms of my own experience because what I got

147
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 1: to do now, experiment on people is fun. Even when

148
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,840
Speaker 1: I was little, I loved experimenting on people and learning

149
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: about how they react. And I would you know, I

150
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 1: had set up elaborate schemes to see what people would do,

151
00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,839
Speaker 1: just because of my curiosity and in human behavior. I

152
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 1: hear you using the term misinformation and occasionally disinformation, and

153
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,840
Speaker 1: out in the wild, these terms are often used together.

154
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,520
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's a slash between them. Sometimes people use them interchangeably,

155
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 1: even if they might not intend to. So for the

156
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,160
Speaker 1: record and for clarity, what is misinformation? What is disinformation?

157
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,320
Speaker 1: How are they different? That's a great question. I've defined

158
00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 1: misinformation as in a lot of the work, we're doing

159
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: information that is simply false or incorrect, and so this

160
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,400
Speaker 1: can include things like simple journalistic errors, but it doesn't

161
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,199
Speaker 1: tell you whether it's misinforming people by accident or intentionally.

162
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 1: And so, for me, disinformation is misinformation coupled with some

163
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,439
Speaker 1: psychological intend to deceive or harm other people. And that's

164
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: also why people get more upset about certain kinds of

165
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,080
Speaker 1: disinformation than than others, because we can all forgive people

166
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,800
Speaker 1: for making honest mistakes and errors, but it's different when

167
00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 1: someone's targeting you or actively trying to dupe you. But

168
00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,960
Speaker 1: it gets complex. Let me give you an example. Let's

169
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 1: say that the Chicago Tribune, which is you know otherwise,

170
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,160
Speaker 1: I think the headline was doctor died shortly after receiving

171
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,079
Speaker 1: the COVID vaccine. Now, these were two independent events, and

172
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,800
Speaker 1: one might have nothing to do with the other. There's

173
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 1: an investigation that was ongoing. But are you misinforming people

174
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,360
Speaker 1: by constructing a headline in that way? And so it's

175
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,560
Speaker 1: not only that there's these sort of fringe outlets spamming

176
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,320
Speaker 1: us with disinformation. Here's the question that they do that intentionally.

177
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think these are the complex bigger

178
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,200
Speaker 1: questions that we tried to study. The formulation of disinformation

179
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 1: equals misinformation plus deceptive intent. That resonates with me. That's

180
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,320
Speaker 1: how I've tried to understand it. But what you just

181
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 1: shared about the Chicago Tribune example reminds me that even misinformation,

182
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,640
Speaker 1: the innocent kind of version of disinformation, can be harmful,

183
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 1: and both versions breed a level of mistrust overall. Because

184
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,079
Speaker 1: just my level of doubt is raised now about vaccines,

185
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 1: about the Chicago Tribune, about Facebook, because I just don't

186
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,439
Speaker 1: know whether they intended it or not. Falseness is spreading

187
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 1: throughout the land. I think that's a great point because

188
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,719
Speaker 1: even something that wasn't intentionally created to be harmful, let's

189
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 1: say it was a mistake, it can then be used

190
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,319
Speaker 1: or weaponized by people who have a certain motivated or

191
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,640
Speaker 1: political view. So if you don't like the vaccine, this

192
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,360
Speaker 1: is now a great example for you to start sharing. See,

193
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, a doctor died because they got the vaccine,

194
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,439
Speaker 1: and so now it can be weaponized and used in

195
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 1: social media for a cause that maybe it wasn't intended

196
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 1: to serve. So something can start out as misinformation and

197
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 1: then become disinformation so our whole podcast is called how

198
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,559
Speaker 1: to Citizen, and the premises that we all have a

199
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 1: role to play in shaping our society's the whole self

200
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,320
Speaker 1: government thing. We believe in it were nerds for that reason.

201
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 1: I'm curious what you've learned about human behavior and decision

202
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,280
Speaker 1: making in digital spaces that can make it hard for

203
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,200
Speaker 1: us to self govern and participate in our society. You know,

204
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 1: I think one of the lessons that I've learned at

205
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,360
Speaker 1: a basic level people to have a motivation to be accurate.

206
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: We do want to know what's going on in the world.

207
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,880
Speaker 1: For most people, that's kind of a default baseline. But

208
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 1: then when you're put in situations that's basically thwart that

209
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 1: internal sort of radar that you have, things can get

210
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 1: pretty ugly. What happens when you go on social media

211
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 1: is that there's all sorts of different incentives that appeal

212
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,319
Speaker 1: to people that have nothing to do with accuracy. What

213
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: are other powerful forces that influence our decision making? You

214
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,120
Speaker 1: go online, you see some things that's not only been

215
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 1: shared by somebody you trust and know. That type of

216
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 1: information gets priority from people because we use it as

217
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,280
Speaker 1: a heuristic. If information comes from somebody already know and

218
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,440
Speaker 1: trust there's an implicit assumption that's been vetted and verified

219
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,760
Speaker 1: by that person and they wouldn't share anything to do people.

220
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 1: But now it also has a thousand likes, it's been

221
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 1: shared fifty thousand times. That's a powerful indicator something important

222
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 1: is going on that you might want to share it

223
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,440
Speaker 1: as well. And then there's the filter. So Facebook is

224
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 1: filtering things based on your prior click behavior and things

225
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 1: that you've looked at. And then you know, you're focused

226
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 1: with making a decision. What are you sharing online? What

227
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 1: are you paying attention to? You know, In one study,

228
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,600
Speaker 1: will looked at millions and millions of posts on Twitter

229
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 1: and Facebook and what's the stuff that generates the most engagement.

230
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 1: It's posts that derogate the out group. So if you're

231
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 1: a liberal, the outgroup is a conservative. If you're conservative,

232
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,360
Speaker 1: the outgroup is a liberal. And so we coded posts

233
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 1: for whether it was you know, positive or negative and

234
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 1: about liberals or conservatives, And across millions of posts, the

235
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,720
Speaker 1: number one thing that got the most tractions is basically

236
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,520
Speaker 1: trash talk about the other group. That is what it

237
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: gets engagement on social media. So when you come in

238
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,360
Speaker 1: all accuracy motivated it and call them and honest, and

239
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 1: you get distracted by this incentive to start hating on people,

240
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 1: essentially because that's what's it you like, So that's what

241
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 1: gets promoted, that's what gets shared, that's what's the norm

242
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,680
Speaker 1: on the platform. Then that's what influences your judgments and

243
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 1: behaviors much more so than other facts. It's kind of

244
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,040
Speaker 1: like you're back in high school when you're on social media.

245
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 1: That social pressure is back, you know, and how do

246
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 1: we fix that is a big problem, and so we

247
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: certainly have some ideas. Whether or not social companies are

248
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 1: keen on them is another and I should say that

249
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 1: I do advise social media companies. Part of what they're

250
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 1: doing is on a micro level, they're trying to find misinformation,

251
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 1: they're trying to get fact checkers on board. They helped

252
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: them on how to debunk misinformation more effectively on their platform,

253
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 1: and these are kind of micro solutions. Right, there's a problem.

254
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 1: They try to fix it by getting more facts out there,

255
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 1: by you know, upgrading the way that they correct misinformation

256
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: on on their plat form. But at the end of

257
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 1: the day, I think what they're not thinking about is

258
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: that if you really want to change the incentives that

259
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 1: people face on social media. You're gonna have to rethink

260
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 1: the whole nature of the platform. What we want to

261
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,240
Speaker 1: envision is a place where people have a motivation to

262
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 1: be accurate, to share factual information, to have constructive conversations,

263
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,680
Speaker 1: to have positive conversations. The other thing that they'll say,

264
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: and I think this is very interesting to me, is

265
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,280
Speaker 1: that we didn't design this platform to help people be

266
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,560
Speaker 1: as accurate as they can be. That's not the purpose

267
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 1: of social media. We're not. They admit that, I admit

268
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 1: that we're not. We're not interested in getting everyone to

269
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: have the you know, scientific opinions and the truth driven.

270
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: We're not in the truth business. And they want people

271
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: to have fun, they have the conversations that they want

272
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 1: to have, even if they're they're spicy, and will admit

273
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 1: and say, look, that's not our purpose. Our purposes to

274
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,440
Speaker 1: let people have all kinds of conversations, and we're not

275
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,360
Speaker 1: we're not going to regulate necessarily what people say. I

276
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: think that's the issue. I think maybe to enhance a

277
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,159
Speaker 1: better environment for everyone on social media, we have to

278
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 1: just fundamentally change the incentives, which means you're not going

279
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,560
Speaker 1: to get as much engagement, and that's a difficult that's

280
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,600
Speaker 1: a difficult ask if you really want to fix this problem,

281
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna have less engagement means you're gonna make it.

282
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 1: Less money means we're gonna have a different kinds of incentives.

283
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's just not a business decision they're

284
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 1: willing to make. When we come back, Sander and I

285
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,400
Speaker 1: get into how playing games can enhance democracy. You can

286
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: do both at the same time. It's dope. Talk to

287
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:51,159
Speaker 1: me about how someone engages in spreading wildly inaccurate information.

288
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm one of these platforms. I'm talking microchips in my

289
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 1: maderna shot, I'm talking five G towers pumping out COVID,

290
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,360
Speaker 1: even things that are counter factual to observed reality fly around.

291
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,640
Speaker 1: What is the psychology of that kind of spread? Why

292
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 1: do people keep sharing it? Yeah? Why why do people

293
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 1: keep sharing it? One theory is kind of what I

294
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 1: call more of a generous take on the human decision

295
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 1: making condition that we find ourselves in. Right, It's called

296
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:28,679
Speaker 1: the inattention account. If you think of the brain as

297
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,159
Speaker 1: a computer being bombarded with information, and so our memories

298
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 1: are limited and our attention spans limited, you know, there's

299
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 1: too much going on and we're getting distracted. If only

300
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 1: there was a way to bring accurate information to your attention,

301
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: then the problem would be solved. Overwhelmed human is the

302
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 1: charitable interpretation. What's the other one? The other account is

303
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 1: a bit more nefarious, right. It's suggests that people are

304
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,200
Speaker 1: actively biased, and that we share content because we want

305
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 1: to promote or identify with the kind of social groups

306
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 1: that we belong to. We have a political identity that

307
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,679
Speaker 1: we want to make salient to people. It might be

308
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 1: the case that you share content not because you really

309
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 1: believe it. It's not that you're you don't believe climate

310
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,959
Speaker 1: change or you don't believe in the vaccine. You're sharing

311
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 1: it because it reinforces the narrative of your group. It

312
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 1: makes the connections that you have with other people you

313
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,360
Speaker 1: care about stronger. It helps you give you a sense

314
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 1: of purpose and agency and that you're belonging to a

315
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,439
Speaker 1: movement um thinking about Q and on, for example, and

316
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: so it reinforces what we call a sense of social identities.

317
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 1: What you're describing sounds like gang colors and membership. You're

318
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 1: literally signaling your membership and the facts or lack thereof

319
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: don't matter nearly as much as you wave in that color.

320
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,200
Speaker 1: It's very understandable, and I think I can even see

321
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 1: it from my own experience with this whole idea of

322
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 1: like when I see an article that confirms me, I'm like, yeah,

323
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: that's why am I knew Big Evil Corp? Was big

324
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: and evil? Then I'll share the hell out of that.

325
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: But then if I see some like wonderfully written defense

326
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 1: of like well why globalization has actually been on net part,

327
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, whatever, that's be as somebody made that up.

328
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: That's this information because I don't even I actually don't

329
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 1: want to believe it because it challenges me, not intellectually,

330
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 1: but like identificationally or something like I don't I already

331
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 1: know who I am. I don't want to be someone different.

332
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: I've invested a lot in this identity, so I'm not

333
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 1: going to share something that challenges me. Then you just add,

334
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 1: you know, fuel to that fire when you put it

335
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 1: on a technology platform that has a financial incentive to

336
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: turn up those dials and hit both explanations of why

337
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 1: we do what we do. So you have this concept

338
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 1: of pre bunking that I find fascinating. Can you explain it? Yeah, absolutely.

339
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 1: Pre Bunking is the idea that rather than trying to

340
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: correct something after a fact, which was usually called debunking,

341
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:08,520
Speaker 1: it's that you try to do it preemptively. M hmm.

342
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: But the idea here it goes further. It follows the

343
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: biomedical vaccination metaphor exactly. So, just as you inject people

344
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,959
Speaker 1: with the weakened dose of the virus to trigger at

345
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,480
Speaker 1: the production of antibodies and an attempt to help confer

346
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 1: immunity against future infection, turns out you can do the

347
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: same with misinformation. When you expose people to severely and

348
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: sufficiently weakened dose of the misinformation virus quote unquote or

349
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: the techniques that are used to spread misinformation, people can

350
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 1: build up cognitive or intellectual antibodies against them and become

351
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 1: more resistant. So we should at prebunk when it's possible.

352
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: You know, viruses have different incubation periods, misinformation pathogens have

353
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: different periods, and in the sense that even when you've

354
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,360
Speaker 1: already been exposed, it can still be beneficial, but at

355
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: some point it's going to be too late. But pretty

356
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,360
Speaker 1: bunk when you can yeah, that doesn't work. We can

357
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 1: do fact checking in real time and if it doesn't work.

358
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 1: We can still try to debunk and correct things after

359
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 1: the fact. I guess we haven't really talked about why

360
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: that's less effective. It very brief. It's less effective because

361
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: once you're exposed to a falsehood, it sits in your memory.

362
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: It makes friends with all the things you know. And

363
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: so we know from research and when people acknowledge a correction,

364
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: even when they acknowledge it, they continue to retrieve false

365
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: details from memory about the event. And I think it's

366
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: something very basic. If I don't know, I don't know

367
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: where you live, but if I told you that down

368
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: your street and went to one of the restaurants, and

369
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, I got food poisoning was real bad. A

370
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: week later, I tell you, oh, look listen, actually it

371
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 1: wasn't that restaurant, it was another one. Every time you're

372
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: going to pass by that restaurant, you've gotta think food poisoning.

373
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: That's a difficult thing with corrections. It lingers in your

374
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: mind because this association has been made. And that's why

375
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: pre bunking is ideal. How did this idea emerge? Can

376
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: you put me in the room or the zone that

377
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: you or your team or wherever this idea came from.

378
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: How did it emerge? Yeah, well, I actually can tell

379
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: you that there was a psychologist in the sixties this

380
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: psychological warfare, or at least it's one place. His name

381
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: is Bill McGuire. He's no longer alive. Psychological warfare. He

382
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: developed some articles, very early articles, and something he called

383
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 1: the inoculation theory, which at the time was following the

384
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: biomedical iganization metaphor, but the use of this force as

385
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: an integral popular combat has now taken on new forms.

386
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 1: He was concerned during the Korean War. You know that

387
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: some of the prisoners award and there was a whole

388
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: paranoia about them being brainwashed at the time. Now we

389
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: know that there's other explanations for why some of these

390
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: soldiers voluntarily didn't choose to come back to the United States.

391
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: One example was racism, but at the time the predominant

392
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: narrative was that these soldiers were brainwashed. Here also, it

393
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: was a chance to see directly into the communist state

394
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: through the eyes of typical, average young American, and so

395
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: McGuire was thinking, well, is it possible to develop this

396
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: is the vaccine for brainwash? You know, how how would

397
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: you do that? The kind of key solution at the

398
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: time was the military and the White House stuff. They

399
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: were saying, Oh, the problem is American values aren't clear

400
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: enough to the people, And McGuire said, that's actually not

401
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: the issue. The issue is that the soldiers were not

402
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: prepared for the type of manipulation strategies that they would

403
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: be confronted with because the Chinese camps at the time,

404
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: they weren't violent necessarily, they said, welcome to the other side. Here,

405
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: we're going to educate you about what's really going on

406
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 1: with communism. It's not some evil thing, and we're not

407
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: going to necessarily harm you. We just want to re

408
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: educate you. That presented a lot of counter arguments to capitalism.

409
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: They had daily lectures and classes, and so what I

410
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: think what McGuire was trying to say was that they

411
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 1: really hadn't anticipated in an attack on the foundations of capitalism,

412
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: and a lot of them started they had no prior

413
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: defenses against They just assumed capitalism is good. They were

414
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: prepared for a war of military arms and weapons. They

415
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: were not prepared for a war of information ship exactly. Yeah,

416
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: you never got to the propaganda, the misinformation. He kind

417
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 1: of left this idea moved on to all other ideas.

418
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: It got buried for sixty years. So I was sitting

419
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: in the library one day and I came across one

420
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: of his articles and I was like, Wow, this is

421
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: gonna be so if we could develop this idea further

422
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: now in this context, is going to be so interesting.

423
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: So we kind of picked up where he left off

424
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: and started actually testing this in the context of misinformation,

425
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: and we thought, how could we bring this into the

426
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: twenty one century. And one of the things we did

427
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: is we started simulating a social media feed in a

428
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 1: in a kind of simulator machine together with gaming a

429
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: company and a Vida literacy company that we teamed up

430
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: with and a bunch of programmers, big team, and then

431
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: we decided to produce some real world interventions where people

432
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: can enter what we called the disinformation Simulator that would

433
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: be exposed to these weakend doses of the key techniques

434
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: that are being used to deceive us online. And then

435
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: we found that over time people can build up, you know, immunity.

436
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: This is so so perfect because simulations are used in

437
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: trainings of all kinds. You know, pilots have flight simulators

438
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: and you know, infantry have the first person shooters simulator,

439
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: and we use games to teach. So you built this simulator,

440
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: this game to extend McGuire's thinking about inoculation theory into

441
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: a more modern day practice, not against you know, Chinese

442
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: political propaganda, but against social media distributed propaganda. What a

443
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: fascinating path from the sixties to now. One of the

444
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: quotes that I've pulled out during this process was from

445
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: Harry Potter Books professor Several Snake, who said, we want

446
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: to find the dark arts, then our defenses must be

447
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: as flexible and inventive as the arts that we seek

448
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: to undo. And I think our our common realization was

449
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: the dark arts of manipulation are evolving sciences as ayn

450
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: factor for a lot of people. We got to go

451
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: out of the lab produce some things that are entertaining

452
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: and fun for people so that we can actually get

453
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: this out and test it in the real world and

454
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: make it fun and entertaining and not you know, so

455
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: people don't get the feeling that they're attending a lecture,

456
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: but they're actually playing a part and generating their own antibodies.

457
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: I've played the game that you and your team have

458
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: created that's built around this inoculation theory, and I gotta

459
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: tell you, I'm very impressed. Like it revealed. It was

460
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: like lifting a veil on the matrix. I was like, oh,

461
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: that's how this works. Oh, I was invested in creating disinformation.

462
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: You kind of you simulated me as a chaos monkey,

463
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: as an agent of chaos visited upon this fictional place.

464
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: Can you explain the game Harmony Square and how it

465
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: works to put into practice this inoculation theory we've been

466
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: talking about, Yeah, you know, it's great. So we have

467
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: a couple of interventions, and Harmony Square was one that

468
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: focused on disinformation during elections and political sort of disinformation.

469
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: We also have bad News, which is our general simulator,

470
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: which is not specific to a particular domain. It's a

471
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: sort of very broad. But Harmony Square came about and

472
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: because there was an interest in inoculating people against foreign

473
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: influence techniques that are being used to medal with democracies

474
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: and elections and of course such a big topic that

475
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: we wanted to do a specialized version of some of

476
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: the more general simulators that we've build. Congratulations, you are

477
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: hired and welcome to your first day as our new

478
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: Chief Disinformation Office. Harmony Square is a green and pleasant place.

479
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: It's famous for its living statue, it's majestic Point Swap

480
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: and it's a new Pineacle Peaks festival. We talked that

481
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: basic idea of Harmony Square, which is the last democracy

482
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: on Earth at Depressing. That's there you enter into a

483
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: peaceful town. The contents all fictional, and it's supposed to

484
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: be a bit ludicrous, right that there's this fictional town

485
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: and something very innocuous happens. Using that kind of narrative,

486
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: we try to inoculate people against some of these techniques

487
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: that are used to polarize people. M hm m m. Yeah.

488
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: If you goes here an illusionist or a magic show

489
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: the first time, you might be duped. And there's really

490
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: two ways to fix that. Once I'm going to give

491
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: you a blueprint of how the trick works, which is

492
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: kind of like a factual sort of treatment. Or I

493
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: could let you step into the shoes of the illusionist

494
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: for a little while so you can discover the trick

495
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: on your own, and that way you're never going to

496
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: be duped by it again. Chaos is what counts. Let's

497
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: create another alter ego account and pretend to we're on

498
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: the other side of this fight. I am totally ramped up.

499
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: I am invested in this egg. On the other side

500
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: as well, Oh, we're definitely using bots deploy the bots.

501
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: I love that. Man. When I tell you like I

502
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. You made me into a monster and I

503
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: loved it. That's that's how effective the game was. I

504
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: played a lot of games I've overseen, like hackathons with

505
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: creative activists and comedians and stuff before, so I thought

506
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: I knew what I was getting into. And by the end,

507
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to destroy this town, like

508
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: we won't even remember it existed. And so you have

509
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: insensivized really devastating behavior. I was rewarded for it. You

510
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: track the amount of followers you get after each wave

511
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: of these campaigns and do you want to escalate or

512
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: go home? Definitely want to escalate, right. So I look

513
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: back after this and I'm like, oh, man, can you

514
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: connect the dots from this game back to the real world?

515
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: And how an experience like this, whether it's this game

516
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: or some of your other projects, helps me interface with

517
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: and process my actual social media feed better. How are

518
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: my defenses more activated against the real life misinformation and disinformation? Yeah?

519
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely so? As you said, there's a bit of a

520
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: shock value to the game, because precisely, one of the

521
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: core elements of inoculation theory is that people need to

522
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: experience a sense of threat to motivate themselves to want

523
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: to defend themselves against misinformation attacks. We need to activate

524
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: your antibody production, and so we need to get people,

525
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: you know, into the mode. And as you said, of

526
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: their elections going on during the game, and there's a

527
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: newscaster and you can see the approval ratings live and

528
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: as you cast your chaos, they're they're affected. And there's

529
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: this candidate and you have a Samarican pain about them.

530
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: How are you going to ruin? Actually plugs unopposed, run

531
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: message family and friends, or create a fake news site.

532
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: All right, here's another option, Ashley plugs disgusting chat messages leaked.

533
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: I'm bleeping hate bears. This is the kind of chaos.

534
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: We need to post this and then oh, it's like

535
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: a sloth photo. What the words please, it's meant to

536
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 1: be a bit amusing. What we do at the end

537
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,959
Speaker 1: of all of our interventions is we evaluated empirically, so

538
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the game, and I'm not sure

539
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: if you participated in I did. I did everything I

540
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: was asked to do. We give people some stimulated social

541
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: media headlines, and we asked them how reliable they think

542
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: that are, how confident they are un their judgment, but

543
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: they would share it on social media and things like that.

544
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: And the types of headlines that we give kind of

545
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: reflect what's going down social media. So I'll give you

546
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: an example. Basically as people protesting saying and Father's Day

547
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: and other people you know and so and so. It's

548
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: this it is an issue that's getting blown up, potentially

549
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: by by nefarious actors because they wanted to sow divisions,

550
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: and so we want to know, I have people become

551
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: more tuned to this strategy of of for example, in

552
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: this case polarization. Another was a news article tweet about

553
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: a news article that I think it was a father

554
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: and his and his son and they went out hunting

555
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: and shot themselves or something, and so many commented, oh,

556
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: one point five magabilities less in the world. It's this

557
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: type of deeply polarizing sort of debate that we wanted

558
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: to address. And what we found is that people are

559
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: better able to recognize these strategies in the sense that

560
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: they found these posts less reliable. After playing a game,

561
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: they're less likely to say that they'll share this type

562
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: of content on social media once people leave the game.

563
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: We've we started to follow up with them a week

564
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: after week and don't worry, we get ethics approval from

565
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: this from the university. But we we sort of attacked

566
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: people with misinformation week week after week, and so at

567
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: tax House nefarious. But we basically present people with social

568
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: media posts that are misinformation and we ask you know,

569
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: the same questions. And what we found is that actually

570
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: for a psychological vaccine, it lasts pretty long, for about

571
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: two months. The antibodies are still there, you know, after

572
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: two months. It helps when you boost people in between.

573
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: So we found that there's a decay like what the

574
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: Fiser vaccine, and you need a booster otherwise it wears off.

575
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: There's too many distracts we call interference going on in

576
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: the world that makes people forget and get less motivated.

577
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: But you can boost people in between by re engaging them.

578
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: One of our interventions the bad News, which is the

579
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: sort of the main simulator when viral on Reddit, and

580
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: they can actually crashed our service, so they call it

581
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: the Reddit Hug of Death. The Red Hug of Death.

582
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: Yet we started, like, we started scraping what the redditors

583
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: were talking about, for example, and it was really interesting

584
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: to learn about, you know, people sharing their experience about

585
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: the game and what they've learned, and they started getting

586
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: us thinking about her immunity. And wait, maybe maybe people

587
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: are airing the inoculation with each other on social media,

588
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: And wouldn't that be cool that if people talked about

589
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: what they've learned share with others, so that even people

590
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: who didn't directly play the game can benefit from the

591
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: vaccine sort of speak. And so that's kind of what

592
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: we're working on now. So I played one of your games,

593
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: and I'm a good person, Sander. I am open minded.

594
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: I vote for the right people. But there's other people

595
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: out there, Sander, who are not the best, and they

596
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: spread lies and deceptive information all the time. Are they

597
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: playing your game? To Sander? Is the other side playing

598
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: this game? Are my Q and on brethren playing in

599
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: your game? Well? It's interesting. I don't think that die

600
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: hard conspiracy theorists are playing our game, but we aren't

601
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: thinking about some ways of trying to reach a broader

602
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: audience in terms of the inoculation and getting it, you know,

603
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: getting it scaled to people who might not voluntarily, who

604
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: might not volunteer to come in and sort of learn

605
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: more about this stuff. The epidemiological metaphor of vaccination and

606
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: inoculation is so clear as a strength to me, but

607
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: it's something that has some limits. So we're in a

608
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: real epidemiological challenge right now with COVID nineteen and vaccines

609
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: are a tool, but they're not the only tool, right

610
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: and with any infectious disease, we don't just rely on

611
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: people to inoculate themselves against the threat. We have public

612
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 1: health agencies, we have government policies, companies institute barriers. So yeah,

613
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: big question, but simplified, what else can we do if

614
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: not every person on Earth plays your game to still

615
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: get a handle on the misinformation disinformation challenge? I think

616
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: the uncomfortable spot that we're all in, especially as a scientist,

617
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: is that it seems unrealistic. What else can we do

618
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: that they're willing to accept? And for us, YouTube actually

619
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: doesn't work directly with outside scientists. It's actually it's it's

620
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: very difficult to implement an evidence based sort of freebunk

621
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: on their platform. So I gottapplause you there earlier in

622
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: our conversation, you um acknowledge, and you know, these platforms acknowledge.

623
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: They're not in the business of accuracy or truth right there,

624
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: in the business of engagement, their business of entertaining conversation,

625
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: probably user growth. But you just said about YouTube doesn't

626
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: work with outside researchers directly, that sounds to me like

627
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: they don't want to know the truth. They're actively avoiding

628
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: understanding the impact of their platforms on us. What's your

629
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: read on that decision. I think there's probably some truth

630
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: to that. Probably doesn't only apply to YouTube, but to

631
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: most social media companies, because the fact of the matter

632
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: is we can say what we want to them, and

633
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: we say a lot to them, and we have meetings

634
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: with them regularly, and they listen to us, and they

635
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: do respect to us, and and they take our evidence.

636
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: But you know, they say they have their own internal

637
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: evidence that they don't always want people to extract to

638
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: ee weight externally. So what can we say. It's like, okay,

639
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: the way they hold on they have their own facts,

640
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: they have their they have alternative facts, they have their

641
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: own alternative facts. This is terrible, but it's tricky, you know,

642
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: because they say, oh, in your experiment, you're just simulating Facebook.

643
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: We can actually see what's happening on Facebook, and it's like, yeah,

644
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: but if you don't want to share it, then we're

645
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: not getting anywhere. But we have very little information about

646
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: what is actually going on in these platforms the studies

647
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: that we do from social media because we get limited

648
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: access to scrape millions of posts, but it's it's only

649
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: a snapshot really of what's what's going on. And they're

650
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: very hesitant to work with scientists and needs a long

651
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: time to build up relationships. We're getting there, but it's difficult.

652
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: I just want to say, agree with you. To us,

653
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: it seems like a win where you can get them

654
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: to implement an evidence based solution, even if it's a

655
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: minor one. And I will say the people that we

656
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: work with and the research teams at these companies there

657
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: are really motivated and they really want to fix the problems.

658
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,720
Speaker 1: I think the issue is with the high level policy

659
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: executive people who just shoot down the sort of more

660
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: artical and solutions that we need. I think that the

661
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: problem is with the people a higher up, not necessarily

662
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: the research teams or we're going out making connections with

663
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: researchers reading our papers, wanting to fund our research, want

664
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: to implement a solutions, and then they go to their

665
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: bosses and they say, interesting, we'll think a much. We'll

666
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: look congratulations for having any level of dialogue and partnership

667
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,280
Speaker 1: with these large organizations. So we're going in the right direction.

668
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: Whether we're going far enough, fast enough, we should argue

669
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: about that. On social media, I'd love to know how

670
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: you think about the impact you've had, whether it's in

671
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: the partnership world with these companies, whether it's working with governments,

672
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: or whether it's just you know, individuals from a Reddit

673
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: or some other social share coming across some of these games.

674
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: I mean with Facebook weekly, I take time, you know,

675
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: how did my schedule every week to try to Yeah,

676
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: and that's incredible. How much furniture do you throw during

677
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: these well, you know, and it is and and there.

678
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: The team is really good, but the decisions that are

679
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: ultimately made it's slow, and it's very slow process. But

680
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: we're making progress. But no, it's not. It's not going

681
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: fast enough. We need more radical changes in solutions. We

682
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: we try to team up with the organizations that are

683
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: impactful in the area that we're working, whether it's a

684
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: Department of Homeland Security who can distribute this to all

685
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: political parties and so on, or with our COVID nineteen

686
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: game called go Viral. We got some support from the

687
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: World Health Organization and the United Nations, and you know,

688
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: they have volunteers that can target this intervention at vulnerable

689
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: audiences and really help scale it across millions of people.

690
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: But there's billions of people in the world, not just millions.

691
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: So I think, what can people do? Here's my general

692
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: philosophy for society. I think we need a firewall system

693
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 1: to mitigate the post truth sort of biased that's that's

694
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: creeping in. And so this firewall system, or a multi

695
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: layer defense system should start with the pre bunking. So

696
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: we should all prebunk the w HL, the social media companies,

697
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: even regular companies. And then at the same time we

698
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: have to radically reinvent the incentive structure of social media.

699
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 1: So nothing big, nothing big that I'm floating here, that's all.

700
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: That's all. So so we call this show how to Citizen.

701
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: Whe We think of citizen as a verb, not a

702
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: noun or legal status, so much as a posture of

703
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: participation in society. What's your view on what citizening means

704
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: to you. I think being a good citizen means not

705
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: only maintaining a healthy information diet or yourself, but also

706
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 1: helping other people to discertain fact from fiction in their lives.

707
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: And I think that's how I see morale, is that

708
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: it's not just about me, it's also about helping my

709
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: fellow citizen not get duped. This is a refreshing take

710
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: on a challenge that so many of us just feel

711
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: hopeless about. So thank you for another perspective on that.

712
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: I'm excited that you've built something that's fun and terrifyingly

713
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,479
Speaker 1: effective at the same time. That's hard trick to pull off,

714
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: So thank you, Sander for the time. I look forward

715
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: to a more sane and healthy information environment for us

716
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: all to have it. Thanks so much for having me on.

717
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: We've all been there. I know I have. Just kicking

718
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: it on the Internet and some jerk shows up spreading infuriating,

719
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: lee incorrect garbage. So we do what any good citizen

720
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: is supposed to do. We dump data, we fire all facts.

721
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: We counter that misinformation with real information to prove that

722
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: jerk wrong. But Sander wants us to reimagine and reframe

723
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: the way we approach misinformation. We can't hit people over

724
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: the head with facts. Whack a mole is in a

725
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: active games like harmony Square. On the other hand, they

726
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: teach us some of the dark arts of misdirection and illusion,

727
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: and like peeking behind the curtain and seeing the great

728
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: and powerful odds for the first time. Once you see

729
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: him and his dirty bag of tricks, he loses some

730
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: of his power. So stay safe, stay alert. Think twice

731
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: before you hit that share button, but honestly, think also

732
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: about who even wants you to hit the button in

733
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: the first place, and what they have to gain from it.

734
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: As we check in with ourselves about the content we consume.

735
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 1: Next time, we get a lesson on tech nutrition, because

736
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: machines gotta eat too. Bias in, bias out like garbage in,

737
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: garbage out. You feed this machine something, the machine is

738
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: going to look exactly like what you fed it. You

739
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: are what you eat. By now you know we're committed

740
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: to giving you things to do beyond listening to our episodes.

741
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,919
Speaker 1: And I knew how the citizen dot com website, we've

742
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: got every episode transcripts, links to the guests, but most importantly,

743
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: we have things you can do to actually practice citizening.

744
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: So in that spirit, for this episode, here's some things

745
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: you can do. Point your browser over to inoculation dot science.

746
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: That's right, there's a dot science domain name. Get your

747
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: science on. Head on over to an oculation dot science

748
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: one end, and play the set of games that they've built.

749
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: In addition to breaking Harmony Square, which you heard me

750
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: playing and acting the damn fool as I did, so,

751
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: they've got games to help you limit the harm of

752
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: fake news and COVID misinformation. After you've played some of

753
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: the games and watch some of the videos, reflect on

754
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: how they made you feel. Are there online experiences you've

755
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: had that make more sense once you consider you might

756
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: have been intentionally manipulated. How does that feel? I suspect

757
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: it makes you mad, but also it might make you

758
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: feel more empowered. And do you think these games might

759
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: affect how you engage online in the future. Finally, share

760
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: these games with the people you care about. So many

761
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: of us have folks in our lives, and we don't

762
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 1: want to waste hours and hours convincing them of something

763
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: that's so obviously false when we take real information into account. Look,

764
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: friends don't let friends spread misinformation. It's kind of as

765
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: simple as that. I don't expect you to memorize all this.

766
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: Everything I've said is a version of it in the

767
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: show notes, in the podcast app you're listening on right now,

768
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: and we've got all these links over at how to

769
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: citizen dot com. You can also engage with us on

770
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 1: I G on Zuckerberg's property. We are at how to

771
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: Citizen where you can share and learn from other people

772
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: who own this journey with us, including me. That's all

773
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: I got for now. Peace. How to Citizen with Barriton

774
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Day is a production of I Heart Radio Podcasts and

775
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 1: dust Light Productions. Are Ecutive producers are Me Barry to

776
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Usa. Our senior producer

777
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: is Tamika Adams, our producer is Ali Kilts, and our

778
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: assistant producer is Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cohne is our editor,

779
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Lai as

780
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: our apprentice. Special thanks to Sam Paulson for creating the

781
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: chip tune arrangement of the how the Citizen theme and

782
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: the Harmony Square inspired tunes to accompany my game play.

783
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: This episode was produced in sound designed by Tamika Adams

784
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 1: with additional help from Sam Paulson. Additional production help from

785
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: Arwin Knicks. Special thanks to Joel Smith from my Heart

786
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: Radio and Rachel Garcia at Dusklight Productions.