1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,076 Speaker 1: Push it. I'm ready. I'm gonna start us off. Okay, okay, 2 00:00:23,116 --> 00:00:30,516 Speaker 1: do it. Smiling, keep smiling, keep shining, you shine, knowing 3 00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 1: you can always count on me for sure. That's what 4 00:00:36,836 --> 00:00:41,476 Speaker 1: some of my best friends are for. Man, you got it. 5 00:00:44,316 --> 00:00:48,396 Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad, I'm Ben Austin. And even after 6 00:00:48,476 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: that song, we're still best friends. One black, one white. 7 00:00:53,596 --> 00:00:56,916 Speaker 1: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And in this show, 8 00:00:57,276 --> 00:01:00,756 Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a 9 00:01:00,876 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And in this episode, we're 10 00:01:06,276 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: exploring the story of the Florida man who calls the 11 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:13,236 Speaker 1: teaching of the History of Race and Racism or ap 12 00:01:13,396 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 1: African American Studies propaganda and indoctrination. Yeah, yeah, that's right. 13 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: Florida man. Here is Ronda Santis, and he and his 14 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: conservative cronies, they are sabotaging this advanced placement African American 15 00:01:27,396 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 1: Studies course. And we're gonna look at the national implications 16 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 1: of this move. Let's get to the show. Let's do 17 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:50,676 Speaker 1: it now, Khalil. In January, ron De Santis, the governor 18 00:01:50,716 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 1: of Florida Republican, announced that he was going to ban 19 00:01:54,876 --> 00:02:00,236 Speaker 1: this AP African American Studies curriculum in his state. I mean, 20 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:03,476 Speaker 1: I've heard, I've heard all about it. He is he 21 00:02:03,596 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 1: is about to ban our show too. I mean that's that. 22 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:10,396 Speaker 1: I have a friend inside of the of the governor's 23 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:14,036 Speaker 1: mansion who sent me a leaked memo that said, some 24 00:02:14,116 --> 00:02:17,196 Speaker 1: of my best friends are is way too woke. It 25 00:02:17,236 --> 00:02:20,756 Speaker 1: will potentially infect the minds of our students in the 26 00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:24,516 Speaker 1: state of Florida. It lacks any educational value, and we 27 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:27,076 Speaker 1: need to go after it. So those are the things 28 00:02:27,076 --> 00:02:30,716 Speaker 1: that his education department or people in his administration said 29 00:02:30,716 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 1: about this AP curriculum, where you just said about our podcast, 30 00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 1: and both are probably not true. He called it woke indoctrination, 31 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:42,356 Speaker 1: that it lacks educational value, and actually, let's hear around 32 00:02:42,356 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 1: a Santa's basically trash this AP curriculum, this course on 33 00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:50,316 Speaker 1: black history, what are one of what's one of the 34 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 1: lessons about queer theory? Now, who would say that an 35 00:02:55,996 --> 00:02:59,916 Speaker 1: important part of black history is queer theory? That is 36 00:02:59,956 --> 00:03:03,196 Speaker 1: somebody pushing an agenda on our kids. And so when 37 00:03:03,236 --> 00:03:08,156 Speaker 1: you look to see they have stuff about intersectionality, abolishing prisons, 38 00:03:08,196 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: that's a political agenda, and so we're on that's the 39 00:03:11,876 --> 00:03:15,116 Speaker 1: wrong side of the line for Florida's standards. We believe 40 00:03:15,196 --> 00:03:22,836 Speaker 1: in teaching kids fact. I love it teaching kids facts 41 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:26,076 Speaker 1: like I love that you responded to this, because since 42 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 1: this story broke in January and then in February, the 43 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 1: college board who creates the APE curriculum, actually came out 44 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:36,636 Speaker 1: with a curriculum with a bunch of revisions. You've been 45 00:03:36,636 --> 00:03:39,916 Speaker 1: in the news. You've been all over the place talking 46 00:03:39,956 --> 00:03:43,036 Speaker 1: about this, and in the way that our you know, 47 00:03:43,476 --> 00:03:48,676 Speaker 1: sound bite social media news cycle works, even things you've 48 00:03:48,716 --> 00:03:52,396 Speaker 1: said became part of the news. Right. Actually, I'm just 49 00:03:52,436 --> 00:03:54,516 Speaker 1: trying to drum up, you know, even more downloads for 50 00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: our podcast. Fox News had a headline of a story 51 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 1: and said Ivy League professor meaning Khalil Jibrawn Mohammed on 52 00:04:03,276 --> 00:04:10,236 Speaker 1: MSNBC trash's critical race theory critic as fake journalist. Well, 53 00:04:10,716 --> 00:04:14,516 Speaker 1: I mean I was really just giving the facts of 54 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:19,956 Speaker 1: the guys actual credentials. That's what I didn't trash him that. 55 00:04:20,236 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 1: I know you didn't, man, I know you did. But 56 00:04:21,876 --> 00:04:23,676 Speaker 1: this is this is why it's so great because now 57 00:04:23,716 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 1: you and I get to talk about this subject. We 58 00:04:26,276 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 1: get to talk about this AP curriculum and all that 59 00:04:29,236 --> 00:04:33,156 Speaker 1: it means. So let's jump into this important story. Yeah, 60 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:36,516 Speaker 1: all jokes aside. This really is fundamental to who we 61 00:04:36,556 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: are as a country. It's fundamental to our capacity to 62 00:04:40,076 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 1: make the changes that you and I think are so 63 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:43,836 Speaker 1: important and so many of our guests have been talking 64 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:46,556 Speaker 1: about all season. All right, my man, here's how I 65 00:04:46,556 --> 00:04:48,676 Speaker 1: feel like we can talk about this to actually sort 66 00:04:48,716 --> 00:04:54,356 Speaker 1: of explain what has happened throughout this process. So the 67 00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:58,716 Speaker 1: College Board, which which writes the AP curriculum for states 68 00:04:58,716 --> 00:05:02,236 Speaker 1: and then for the entire country, they created an African 69 00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:06,796 Speaker 1: American Studies curriculum and they said that they were piloting 70 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:09,956 Speaker 1: this in I think about sixty different in schools across 71 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:12,196 Speaker 1: the country. Yeah, something like that. That's right. They had 72 00:05:12,636 --> 00:05:15,396 Speaker 1: like a draft of this going out, and that draft 73 00:05:15,636 --> 00:05:20,676 Speaker 1: is leaked and conservative news media and then ROUNDA. Santis, 74 00:05:20,676 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 1: the Florida Governor sort of jump on this and criticize it. 75 00:05:25,796 --> 00:05:28,716 Speaker 1: When they start seeing what's inside the curriculum. The Governor 76 00:05:28,756 --> 00:05:32,436 Speaker 1: of Florida, Rhunda Santis, and the Department of Florida Education 77 00:05:33,396 --> 00:05:35,556 Speaker 1: got hold of what was in the framework. They called 78 00:05:35,556 --> 00:05:39,156 Speaker 1: it a framework and it listed a number of topics 79 00:05:39,156 --> 00:05:42,876 Speaker 1: that would be explored in this future curriculum, and some 80 00:05:42,956 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: of it was about black lives matter, some of it 81 00:05:45,636 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 1: was about reparation, some of it was about people who 82 00:05:48,556 --> 00:05:52,196 Speaker 1: are black and queer, and more particularly, it was about 83 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 1: a number of topics that you and I are constantly 84 00:05:57,276 --> 00:06:00,276 Speaker 1: historicizing because they overlap with the story of our lives. 85 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:02,356 Speaker 1: In other words, things have been going on since the 86 00:06:02,396 --> 00:06:05,516 Speaker 1: civil rights movement, you know, like since the nineteen seventies. 87 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:08,636 Speaker 1: And we heard the Santis in the opening, and we 88 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:11,236 Speaker 1: heard sort of him talking about what he felt was 89 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:15,716 Speaker 1: the problems of this curriculum. And one of the other 90 00:06:15,756 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 1: things that he's able to say is that it's actually 91 00:06:18,316 --> 00:06:21,236 Speaker 1: against the law in the state of Florida to teach 92 00:06:21,316 --> 00:06:24,796 Speaker 1: these things, which is crazy because the laws have changed 93 00:06:24,836 --> 00:06:27,436 Speaker 1: in the last two years there, so there's a stop 94 00:06:27,596 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 1: there's a stop Woke Act that that bans the teaching 95 00:06:31,396 --> 00:06:34,316 Speaker 1: of critical race theory. There some aspects of the courts 96 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 1: have sort of challenged some aspects to it, and not 97 00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:40,556 Speaker 1: just critical race theory but also the sixteen nineteen project. 98 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:43,356 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, I'm glad that you're you're emphasize 99 00:06:43,436 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: this point because here he basically set the conditions in 100 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:51,556 Speaker 1: place to render anything like what we're talking about with 101 00:06:51,596 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 1: this African American studies and things to come as illegal. 102 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: I mean, talk about a rig system. You have a 103 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 1: situation where you've defined an entire category acknowledge as potentially 104 00:07:03,996 --> 00:07:06,796 Speaker 1: divisive and not just about race and racism, also about 105 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 1: sex and sexism. This is as much about gender issues 106 00:07:10,356 --> 00:07:13,556 Speaker 1: in the broadest sense as it is about about race. 107 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 1: And so here you pass a law a year ago 108 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 1: they say, hey, we're not going to allow these things, 109 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: and we're gonna call out the sixteen nineteen project and 110 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:25,156 Speaker 1: other things. And of course this curriculum comes along independent 111 00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 1: of the State of Florida's own retrograde backwards agenda, and 112 00:07:29,636 --> 00:07:32,756 Speaker 1: he's like, OOPSI it breaks our law. Can't use it here, 113 00:07:33,316 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, So I 114 00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 1: just want to talk about what happens next. So there 115 00:07:39,676 --> 00:07:42,796 Speaker 1: is this sort of conservative attack on this curriculum, and 116 00:07:42,836 --> 00:07:45,956 Speaker 1: then the college board comes out on February first, the 117 00:07:45,996 --> 00:07:50,116 Speaker 1: first day of Black History months, they released the final 118 00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 1: version of this class and it suddenly has emitted, it's 119 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 1: excluded all these things that conservatives like the Santiss has 120 00:07:58,076 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: said are problematic. That's right, and very conveniently. So, I 121 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:04,356 Speaker 1: mean you took a look at it. What did you 122 00:08:04,356 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: think when you saw some of the things between the 123 00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: before and the after. Well, you know, here's one of 124 00:08:09,716 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: the things I thought about. Like, you and I are 125 00:08:11,596 --> 00:08:14,556 Speaker 1: both teachers. We both teach college courses, and I've taught 126 00:08:14,636 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 1: high school as well in the past. And when you 127 00:08:17,356 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 1: make a curriculum, you do have to make all sorts 128 00:08:20,196 --> 00:08:22,876 Speaker 1: of choices, right, you have to. You can't teach everything 129 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:25,156 Speaker 1: in the world, and so you have to. You might 130 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:28,276 Speaker 1: teach you know, my new book Correction and your book 131 00:08:28,316 --> 00:08:33,036 Speaker 1: The Condemnation of Black Condemnation of Blackness. Oh man, see 132 00:08:33,076 --> 00:08:34,796 Speaker 1: you don't even you're stumbling on the title of my 133 00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:37,676 Speaker 1: book to all these years, and that's all you need. 134 00:08:37,956 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 1: And then and then you throw in some other like 135 00:08:39,676 --> 00:08:42,196 Speaker 1: you know, here and there things. But but but this 136 00:08:42,316 --> 00:08:44,436 Speaker 1: is more than just that kind of uh, you know, 137 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:46,796 Speaker 1: natural pruning that you have to make to fit things 138 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 1: into a class, right, this is something different is going 139 00:08:50,036 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: on here. Well. The thing is, I mean, when you 140 00:08:52,356 --> 00:08:55,076 Speaker 1: look at them before and after, it is obvious that 141 00:08:55,156 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 1: they've turned something that was defined as African American studies 142 00:08:59,396 --> 00:09:03,516 Speaker 1: which is inclusive of history but also includes concerns about 143 00:09:03,516 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 1: the present. If you take a sociology class right now 144 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 1: on any college campus, you're going to talk about the 145 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 1: prison industrial complex, you're going to talk about policing, you're 146 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 1: going to talk about the current education system. So the 147 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 1: thing about African American studies that is different than African 148 00:09:18,756 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 1: American history is it is a conversation between the past 149 00:09:22,316 --> 00:09:24,476 Speaker 1: and the present. That's what it was built to do. 150 00:09:24,556 --> 00:09:26,996 Speaker 1: And so they took out basically most of the present. 151 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:29,636 Speaker 1: So you were among eight hundred scholars who criticized this 152 00:09:29,756 --> 00:09:32,836 Speaker 1: and wrote a public letter. What did the letter say, Well, 153 00:09:32,996 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 1: just to be clear, the letter basically said because it 154 00:09:36,636 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 1: came out before the revised curriculum, but it was intended 155 00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:42,636 Speaker 1: to come out right before because we were concerned, as 156 00:09:42,676 --> 00:09:45,356 Speaker 1: the drafters of the letter, that there would be political 157 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:47,556 Speaker 1: influenced by Florida and that we would see the kind 158 00:09:47,596 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 1: of changes that we saw. So we didn't want this 159 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:53,396 Speaker 1: celebratory news story on February one, on the first day 160 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 1: of Black History Month, to be like, oh my god, 161 00:09:55,116 --> 00:09:57,556 Speaker 1: look at this amazing thing that the college board has done, 162 00:09:57,796 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 1: without paying close attention to the implications that Florida governor 163 00:10:02,396 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 1: had in fact influenced it. So what we said is 164 00:10:05,076 --> 00:10:09,316 Speaker 1: that the college Board has an obligation to uphold the 165 00:10:09,316 --> 00:10:14,116 Speaker 1: standards of academic freedom and to protect the broad range 166 00:10:14,276 --> 00:10:18,556 Speaker 1: of academic interest expressed in the original curriculum, and that 167 00:10:18,636 --> 00:10:23,636 Speaker 1: Rhonda Santis ultimately was trampling upon their autonomy as an organization, 168 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 1: as well as implications for all people doing this kind 169 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:30,076 Speaker 1: of work in the field. So that a politician censoring 170 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 1: academia is problematic in itself. Yeah, but like you know 171 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:39,236 Speaker 1: this as well as anybody. You're a journalist, right, I mean, 172 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 1: this is this is the equivalent of some politicians somewhere 173 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:46,796 Speaker 1: saying that you, I mean, let's not even make it hypothetical, 174 00:10:47,036 --> 00:10:50,516 Speaker 1: your book could be banned in the state of Florida, Like, yeah, 175 00:10:50,556 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 1: precisely because of the content of it. So the implications 176 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 1: are massive and different from all the states that have 177 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 1: passed these anti CRT laws and book banning laws. The 178 00:11:03,676 --> 00:11:08,876 Speaker 1: difference is that what happened here has national educational implications. 179 00:11:09,476 --> 00:11:11,436 Speaker 1: Did you you took an AP class, right, and how 180 00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 1: did it work? Remind me how your AP class work 181 00:11:14,316 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 1: and why you took it in high school? Yeah? Yeah, 182 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:20,316 Speaker 1: I mean we're going into AP. I probably only took 183 00:11:20,356 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 1: AP European History. This is going back to the late 184 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and you probably took like three or four 185 00:11:27,356 --> 00:11:30,076 Speaker 1: APS when we were in high school together. Ye. But 186 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:32,196 Speaker 1: but but it's a way to get college credit. So 187 00:11:32,236 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: it says that you know, if you if you get 188 00:11:33,876 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 1: I think if it's the top scores of five, the 189 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:38,596 Speaker 1: next scores of four, you get college credit. If you 190 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:42,556 Speaker 1: get a high score, and it shows that you're college ready, 191 00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 1: just shows that you're taking you're you're taking the highest 192 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:48,396 Speaker 1: level classes in your school in a way. That's right. 193 00:11:48,436 --> 00:11:52,076 Speaker 1: So your AP European History, like my AP American History course, 194 00:11:52,596 --> 00:11:54,556 Speaker 1: we both did well enough to get credit going to 195 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 1: into college. But guess what you get? I got I 196 00:11:57,036 --> 00:12:02,916 Speaker 1: gotta I gotta five, I gotta four. Yeah, well my 197 00:12:03,036 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: four was just as good in terms of one, you know, 198 00:12:06,396 --> 00:12:10,196 Speaker 1: the four hours of credit. Yeah, you became historian. Look 199 00:12:10,196 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 1: at me? So no, man. Look, So here's the thing. 200 00:12:15,436 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 1: What people have to appreciate why this has national implications 201 00:12:18,436 --> 00:12:23,516 Speaker 1: is because this AP class will define every AP offering 202 00:12:24,316 --> 00:12:27,556 Speaker 1: in this course across the entire United States, not just 203 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,076 Speaker 1: in Florida, not just in Tennessee, not just in Illinois 204 00:12:30,116 --> 00:12:32,276 Speaker 1: where we went to school. And guess what all the 205 00:12:32,356 --> 00:12:36,236 Speaker 1: colleges that then will be asked and universities to accept 206 00:12:36,316 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 1: this curriculum in terms of giving credit to those students. 207 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:43,836 Speaker 1: So everybody's invested in this. So that's why this is 208 00:12:43,876 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: such a big deal. I'd like us to talk about 209 00:12:46,796 --> 00:12:50,836 Speaker 1: maybe a few specific writers and techs that were taken 210 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:54,716 Speaker 1: out of this AP African American Studies curriculum and use 211 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:58,236 Speaker 1: that to think about the bigger issues what happened there 212 00:12:58,236 --> 00:13:01,316 Speaker 1: in Florida and now the country and how we're supposed 213 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,236 Speaker 1: to think about this. Okay, all right, And maybe a 214 00:13:04,276 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 1: good place to start is one of the authors who 215 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:12,596 Speaker 1: was omitted from the APE curriculum is James Baldwin. I know, man, 216 00:13:12,636 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. Let's talk about what it means that he's 217 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:20,796 Speaker 1: actually removed from this curriculum, right. And so you know, 218 00:13:20,796 --> 00:13:22,796 Speaker 1: when you when you look at the curriculum, the final 219 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:27,076 Speaker 1: version that came out, it has Martin Luther King, it 220 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 1: has Malcolm X, and it sort of jumps over James 221 00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:33,036 Speaker 1: Baldwin and and a lot of stuff of sort of 222 00:13:33,036 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 1: the black power movement, and you know, maybe it even 223 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:40,796 Speaker 1: kind it kind of stops there. It not only stops there. 224 00:13:41,076 --> 00:13:43,836 Speaker 1: The original full curriculum had a whole unit on the 225 00:13:43,836 --> 00:13:47,476 Speaker 1: Black Panther Party. It even dealt with the Nation of Islam, which, frankly, 226 00:13:47,636 --> 00:13:49,996 Speaker 1: you know, aside from my own family history, you can't 227 00:13:50,036 --> 00:13:53,116 Speaker 1: actually understand Malcolm X without putting the Nation of Islam 228 00:13:53,156 --> 00:13:56,516 Speaker 1: in its own historical context. The original unit they had 229 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,836 Speaker 1: was from The Fire Next Time, Baldwin's nineteen sixty three 230 00:14:00,076 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: essay that is an interrogation of the Nation of Islam, 231 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:07,076 Speaker 1: because Baldwin was trying to make sense of this alternative 232 00:14:07,116 --> 00:14:12,596 Speaker 1: path to self determination and independence for black people. In 233 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:16,756 Speaker 1: other words, one of the most dominant strains of black 234 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 1: thought was black nationalism, and at the time when Baldwin 235 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: was writing The Fire Next Time, he was trying to 236 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:26,716 Speaker 1: make sense of these different paths. All of that's gone. Yeah, 237 00:14:26,876 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 1: And one of the ironies of this curriculum is that 238 00:14:29,716 --> 00:14:32,876 Speaker 1: the whole idea or the idea of black studies sort 239 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:36,036 Speaker 1: of emerges from this moment, from this protest moment. Correct, 240 00:14:36,236 --> 00:14:39,036 Speaker 1: this is when the field is invented. That sort that 241 00:14:39,076 --> 00:14:43,556 Speaker 1: to remove sort of the genesis of it feels ahistorical 242 00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:46,916 Speaker 1: and the last question on Baldwin before we move on. 243 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:51,476 Speaker 1: Why do you think he was the target of removal. 244 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:55,116 Speaker 1: Why would he sort of spur this kind of backlash 245 00:14:55,156 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: against him. Well, I think Baldwin is controversial today because 246 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 1: Baldwin's critique of white liberals has been a very prescient 247 00:15:07,116 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 1: voice in this moment. Is his attempt to try to 248 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:14,756 Speaker 1: give voice to the contradictions of a country that claimed this, 249 00:15:15,156 --> 00:15:19,236 Speaker 1: you know, this American exceptionalism, this city on the hill, 250 00:15:19,276 --> 00:15:23,196 Speaker 1: this American democracy like the world had never known. And 251 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: when you listen to Baldwin, you hear him really fundamentally 252 00:15:28,596 --> 00:15:32,556 Speaker 1: articulating that the damage of racism was really the moral 253 00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 1: perversion of white people. They've been raised to believe, and 254 00:15:37,996 --> 00:15:42,076 Speaker 1: by now they helplessly believe. Then, no matter how terrible 255 00:15:42,116 --> 00:15:45,596 Speaker 1: their lives may be, and their lives have been quite terrible, 256 00:15:46,396 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 1: and no matter how far they fall, no matter what 257 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 1: disaster to overtake, some they have one enormous knowledge and 258 00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:57,196 Speaker 1: consolation which is like a heavenly revelation. At least they 259 00:15:57,236 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 1: are not black. Yeah, it's like a it's such a 260 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 1: powerful rendering of white privilege. Exactly, And in his amazing locution, 261 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: I just want to repeat this notional white privilege, as 262 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:15,276 Speaker 1: you put it, at least they are not black. And 263 00:16:15,316 --> 00:16:19,196 Speaker 1: see that's that is Baldwin putting his finger on the 264 00:16:19,236 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 1: deepest wound in the American psychology, which is to say, 265 00:16:23,036 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: a long time ago this country decided they would define 266 00:16:27,716 --> 00:16:32,116 Speaker 1: blackness as those who would whose lives would subsidize the 267 00:16:32,196 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: freedoms of others. And that is the third rail of 268 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:41,716 Speaker 1: American politics right now that people like de Santists and 269 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: red state leaders around the country have been working double 270 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:47,476 Speaker 1: time against in the wake of all those white people 271 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:49,236 Speaker 1: who are like you know what, I don't want to 272 00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:51,956 Speaker 1: be part of this anymore. After seeing George Floyd be killed, 273 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 1: I don't want to have anything to do with this, 274 00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:58,076 Speaker 1: and I want to learn more. Khalil, you and I 275 00:16:58,116 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 1: are here talking about this ap African American studies curriculum, 276 00:17:02,596 --> 00:17:04,716 Speaker 1: and we are going to take a short break and 277 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 1: when we come back, we're going to continue that conversation. 278 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: But we're going to see how it's also about gender 279 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:28,556 Speaker 1: studies and queer studies. Let's do it, Khalil, we are back. 280 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:33,156 Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are and man, this ap 281 00:17:33,596 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: African American Studies curriculum all right, So we talked about 282 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:40,596 Speaker 1: Baldwin being cut out of it. Another huge sort of 283 00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: whole after the final version comes out, is that there 284 00:17:44,996 --> 00:17:48,156 Speaker 1: was all this stuff on queer studies and gender studies, 285 00:17:48,556 --> 00:17:51,516 Speaker 1: and as we heard de Santis in the opening, you know, 286 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:54,716 Speaker 1: he was objecting to that and he says that is 287 00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: not history, and that's all removed. That's right. Yeah. So 288 00:17:58,836 --> 00:18:01,676 Speaker 1: he when he says something like queer theory, and I 289 00:18:01,756 --> 00:18:09,876 Speaker 1: love his like very like fourth grade enunciation, intersectionality, He's like, 290 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:17,916 Speaker 1: he's essentially creating these categories that are dog whistles to 291 00:18:17,996 --> 00:18:22,796 Speaker 1: his supporters to say that must be bad. And of course, 292 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:27,836 Speaker 1: in a time when we are seeing legislative action to 293 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 1: ban transpeople from having access to healthcare or access to 294 00:18:33,316 --> 00:18:37,796 Speaker 1: publicly funded sports, something like queer studies has a direct 295 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 1: relationship to the actual political fights that are happening. But 296 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:45,876 Speaker 1: that's what education has always been about. Let me give 297 00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:48,316 Speaker 1: you a really good example of this from my standpoint. 298 00:18:48,396 --> 00:18:52,236 Speaker 1: You could tell me if you disagree in the sciences, 299 00:18:52,276 --> 00:18:56,116 Speaker 1: nobody pretends in the sciences that they aren't solving problems 300 00:18:56,156 --> 00:19:00,556 Speaker 1: based on hypotheses that will cure cancer, solve global warming, 301 00:19:00,756 --> 00:19:04,876 Speaker 1: increase safe and clean water fixed irrigation systems in the 302 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:09,276 Speaker 1: drying deserts of California. Everyone has a normative goal. Why 303 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:13,116 Speaker 1: shouldn't we have a normative goal to solve our understanding 304 00:19:13,156 --> 00:19:16,036 Speaker 1: of the ways that people's lives are affected by forms 305 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:21,716 Speaker 1: of discrimination, bigotry, and systemic inequalities. Now, historians don't necessarily 306 00:19:21,716 --> 00:19:24,556 Speaker 1: do that, but a lot of other social scientists do 307 00:19:24,596 --> 00:19:27,156 Speaker 1: that work. And that's the work of people who have 308 00:19:27,436 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 1: been doing queer studies. They've been trying to do something 309 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: that is really simple, like, if we can't solve for 310 00:19:34,996 --> 00:19:38,556 Speaker 1: the fact that trans people are the most likely to 311 00:19:38,676 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: experience violence in any other identity based population, then we're 312 00:19:43,436 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 1: probably not going to fix this problem until we fix 313 00:19:46,636 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 1: it for them. That's simple, right, That is simple. Yeah, 314 00:19:50,316 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 1: And you know this is this is sort of low 315 00:19:53,356 --> 00:19:57,796 Speaker 1: hanging fruit for someone like the scientists to attack, you know. 316 00:19:57,876 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 1: He his state, Florida had also passed this don't Say 317 00:20:01,036 --> 00:20:06,716 Speaker 1: Gay legislation, which bans the teaching of I think kindergarten 318 00:20:06,756 --> 00:20:11,716 Speaker 1: through third grade where you can't talk about gender identification 319 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:15,836 Speaker 1: or sexuality sexual orientation, right because the idea essentially at 320 00:20:15,996 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 1: you know, as the news has reported that one this 321 00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:22,156 Speaker 1: is inappropriate for kids. And two that you know this 322 00:20:22,236 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 1: curriculum might convince some kid that they aren't sis gender. Look, 323 00:20:26,116 --> 00:20:28,316 Speaker 1: I got to tell you this story because this isn't 324 00:20:28,316 --> 00:20:31,396 Speaker 1: just about you know, two smart guys and two smart 325 00:20:31,436 --> 00:20:34,076 Speaker 1: alecky guys like you and me having this conversation and 326 00:20:34,156 --> 00:20:36,636 Speaker 1: on our moral high horse, you know, just like all 327 00:20:36,636 --> 00:20:39,596 Speaker 1: these dumb people. Right, this is also said you said, 328 00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:42,596 Speaker 1: I love that he said smart Alec. The other day 329 00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:44,996 Speaker 1: we were talking and I said, I said the word joshing, 330 00:20:45,116 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 1: and I was like, man, I hated just that. I remember, 331 00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:50,876 Speaker 1: I was like, what am I doing? What have I become? 332 00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: Sometimes as we age, you know, we revert back to 333 00:20:53,436 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 1: the mean. You know, that whiteness just just just just 334 00:20:55,876 --> 00:20:59,676 Speaker 1: bubbling up inside of you. So so one of my 335 00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:02,556 Speaker 1: really close friends sends me a text and he's following 336 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:06,196 Speaker 1: the news and he literally writes this. He says, he's following, 337 00:21:06,276 --> 00:21:08,396 Speaker 1: he's following the news. He's seeing you talk about this 338 00:21:08,556 --> 00:21:12,356 Speaker 1: ap Carre's on the news, that's right. So he's following 339 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:16,156 Speaker 1: this particular controversy and he says from the text, he says, 340 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:19,156 Speaker 1: keep fighting the good fight. Brother. I washed a discussion 341 00:21:19,196 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 1: on MSNBC this morning regarding the issue and the discussion 342 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:29,596 Speaker 1: meldedt LGBTQ plus civil rights with the current APFAM studies. 343 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:33,356 Speaker 1: That doesn't sit well with me. But I admit I'm 344 00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:38,556 Speaker 1: ignorant on many of the LGBTQ concerns, like the lgbt 345 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:41,636 Speaker 1: kicks concerns. It reminded me of like I'm ignorant on 346 00:21:41,716 --> 00:21:45,796 Speaker 1: the blacks and their situation. But so But but he's 347 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:47,916 Speaker 1: also being really honest, and he's looking to you for 348 00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:51,556 Speaker 1: he's trying to understand. But he for him, these are 349 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:54,916 Speaker 1: totally separate things, and he feels like it's mudding. This 350 00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:58,076 Speaker 1: is a black guy. I'm assuming that's right. Yeah, and 351 00:21:58,076 --> 00:22:00,276 Speaker 1: and and he is saying that, you know, I'm feeling 352 00:22:00,276 --> 00:22:02,436 Speaker 1: like these two things shouldn't be conflated in a way, 353 00:22:02,436 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be connected. That's right. But but he's open, 354 00:22:04,996 --> 00:22:07,036 Speaker 1: he's oh, he's asking you to like correct him in 355 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:10,676 Speaker 1: a way that's correct. Yeah, He's like, I'm prepared to 356 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 1: admit I'm not sure I understand why these things are 357 00:22:13,516 --> 00:22:17,516 Speaker 1: being put together, because for him, it's like, I am 358 00:22:17,556 --> 00:22:20,516 Speaker 1: a fierce warrior for our black history being taught truthfully, 359 00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 1: but why do we have to link this to queer theory. 360 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,716 Speaker 1: So in other words, you can rally behind the black 361 00:22:27,756 --> 00:22:31,436 Speaker 1: history stuff to some degree, even that's controversial in many ways, 362 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:34,956 Speaker 1: but this other stuff is like, it doesn't seem like 363 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:37,876 Speaker 1: it's appropriate. No, But even even when you're talking about 364 00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 1: somebody who is an ally and who's experiencing this is 365 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 1: also confused about these connections. So it is like I 366 00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:46,796 Speaker 1: was saying, it's much easier to exploit that as a 367 00:22:46,836 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: reason to sort of throw it all out, and you 368 00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:55,636 Speaker 1: were talking about intersectionality, and so intersectionality is this idea 369 00:22:55,796 --> 00:22:59,596 Speaker 1: that our different identities and the different ways that people 370 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:03,236 Speaker 1: experience oppression that they can be they can be interconnected, 371 00:23:03,356 --> 00:23:06,796 Speaker 1: they can reinforce one another, they're they're not wholly separate, 372 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:08,956 Speaker 1: and we can think about them in those terms. That's right. 373 00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 1: So the one way to think about this is both 374 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 1: historical and in terms of thinking about how people need 375 00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:18,596 Speaker 1: certain tools to make sense of their lived experiences today. 376 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 1: So historically, intersectionally, we can understand that someone like James 377 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:27,516 Speaker 1: Baldwin was a fierce critic of American racism, and he 378 00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:31,676 Speaker 1: was gay, and he experienced being gay in ways that 379 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:35,396 Speaker 1: made him not as much a celebrated writer in some 380 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:40,196 Speaker 1: pockets of Black America at that time than he is today. Similarly, 381 00:23:40,716 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 1: one of the leading towering figures in the civil rights movement, 382 00:23:44,156 --> 00:23:47,836 Speaker 1: a person who was in many ways responsible for helping 383 00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:50,516 Speaker 1: to guide Martin Luther King Jr. Was a man named 384 00:23:50,556 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 1: Bayard Rustin who was also gay, and in fact his homosexuality, 385 00:23:56,676 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 1: his gayness was a source of tension, so much so 386 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:03,036 Speaker 1: that he was essentially pushed to the back of the 387 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 1: movement at key moments because people tried to embarrass him 388 00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:09,036 Speaker 1: by it and said, you know, we're going to expose you, 389 00:24:09,476 --> 00:24:14,196 Speaker 1: so you can't fully participate. So that's yeah. I also 390 00:24:14,236 --> 00:24:17,156 Speaker 1: think about I think about Bell Hooks, who's also you know, 391 00:24:17,396 --> 00:24:22,476 Speaker 1: deeply involved in the study of intersectionality and who identified 392 00:24:22,516 --> 00:24:26,116 Speaker 1: as queer, of also being removed from from this curriculum 393 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:28,836 Speaker 1: as well well, not just that she's been banned like 394 00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:31,076 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison and some of the others even before the 395 00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:35,036 Speaker 1: ap African American Studies curriculum. She passed recently too, which 396 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,516 Speaker 1: makes it even more sad. But you asked this question 397 00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:41,316 Speaker 1: about intersectionality in terms of the specific way in which 398 00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:44,236 Speaker 1: it is such a charged issue, and one way that 399 00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 1: is is because a person who's who is credited for 400 00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:52,196 Speaker 1: coining the term. Her name is Kimberly Crenshaw. She's a 401 00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 1: law professor, and she essentially coined this term in nineteen 402 00:24:57,796 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 1: eighty nine because she was trying to make sense in 403 00:25:01,516 --> 00:25:07,556 Speaker 1: legal studies in cases the differences between white women's experiences 404 00:25:07,596 --> 00:25:12,196 Speaker 1: with employment discrimination and black women's experiences with employment discrimination. 405 00:25:12,476 --> 00:25:16,836 Speaker 1: They weren't the same. All women were suffering from a 406 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:20,876 Speaker 1: lack of promotion, they were subjected to serial sexual harassment, 407 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:24,396 Speaker 1: and they were paid much less than their male counterparts. 408 00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: But black women experienced all those things plus the additional 409 00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:32,396 Speaker 1: anti black racism, which meant that what they were experiencing 410 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:34,956 Speaker 1: was even worse. Not to say that these things always 411 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:37,956 Speaker 1: have to be compared on a hierarchical scale, but if 412 00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:41,756 Speaker 1: you were only solving for gender issues for women in 413 00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:46,396 Speaker 1: the workplace, you were not solving for race issues amongst 414 00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 1: women of color too. That's it. That kind of the 415 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:55,876 Speaker 1: original contemporary version of intersectionality. So a curriculum that doesn't 416 00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:58,716 Speaker 1: think about all the ways that these are interconnected, you're 417 00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:01,396 Speaker 1: missing out on an understanding of the world. This is 418 00:26:01,396 --> 00:26:03,756 Speaker 1: how the world was. Yeah, so what did you tell 419 00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 1: your friend, Well, I told him, I said, you can't 420 00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 1: actually understand the fullness of the civil rights movement without 421 00:26:11,556 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 1: understanding the people who actually made it happen. We just 422 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:17,036 Speaker 1: it's just another form of mythology. It's you know, it's 423 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:19,396 Speaker 1: like one that we feel good about. I mean, I 424 00:26:19,676 --> 00:26:21,956 Speaker 1: didn't tell him this, but I, you know, would also say, 425 00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: like a lot of black churches that supported the civil 426 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:29,756 Speaker 1: rights movement were also simultaneously discriminating against black people who 427 00:26:29,836 --> 00:26:34,436 Speaker 1: were gay, either closeted or outwardly from fully participating in 428 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:38,556 Speaker 1: the life of the church. So this is something that 429 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:43,116 Speaker 1: today contemporary social justice movements have been very active to 430 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:46,236 Speaker 1: correct for. And the reason why they've been active in 431 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:49,756 Speaker 1: correcting forward is because it was an issue, and it 432 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:52,436 Speaker 1: did hurt the movement, and it created divisions, and it 433 00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:56,756 Speaker 1: also created unfinished business literally like things that never got 434 00:26:56,796 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 1: sold for. And so Black Studies was totally built to 435 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:04,636 Speaker 1: look at that dance between what happened in the past, 436 00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 1: what have we learned from the past, and how does 437 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:11,756 Speaker 1: that help us make sense of our current condition. Man, man, 438 00:27:11,836 --> 00:27:14,276 Speaker 1: I got so much going on in my head right now, 439 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:17,676 Speaker 1: I actually need to take a short break and let's 440 00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 1: pause for a minute. Let's come back and let's talk 441 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 1: more about how all these contemporary issues are removed from 442 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 1: the curriculum. Okay, so we're back from the break, and 443 00:27:39,036 --> 00:27:41,076 Speaker 1: I just want to go back to Kimberly Crenshaw for 444 00:27:41,116 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 1: a minute. Like, she is a critical race theorist. That's 445 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:46,956 Speaker 1: who she is. She's been that for her entire career. 446 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 1: That's what you get from that body of work to 447 00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:55,276 Speaker 1: help make sense of the world as it actually operates. 448 00:27:55,956 --> 00:27:59,876 Speaker 1: And that's a powerful thing. It's kind of like, for me, 449 00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:06,516 Speaker 1: anti scientism at its best. It's like the scholarship has 450 00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:09,596 Speaker 1: moved on from where Desantist thinks it was when he 451 00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:13,916 Speaker 1: was a student to a better place, just as science does. 452 00:28:14,316 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 1: And he's like, Nah, I don't like these I don't 453 00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:18,876 Speaker 1: like these updates. Let's stick with the old ones. Let's 454 00:28:18,876 --> 00:28:20,956 Speaker 1: stick with what we used to know, because that makes 455 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:24,036 Speaker 1: us all feel better. Yeah, what he talked about is truth. 456 00:28:24,436 --> 00:28:26,756 Speaker 1: To him, that truth is a sort of very narrow 457 00:28:26,836 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 1: and very palatable one that's right and does it isn't 458 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:32,876 Speaker 1: challenging in ways that are uncomfortable. So, yeah, you're talking 459 00:28:32,916 --> 00:28:35,516 Speaker 1: about truth. Well, one of those truths is that the 460 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 1: United States has the largest prison system the world has 461 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 1: ever known. That's not news right to us. You've written 462 00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:45,716 Speaker 1: about it. I've written about it. You know many people 463 00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 1: who we are engaged with. This is a well known thing. 464 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:51,716 Speaker 1: But guess what. In the early version of the African 465 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:54,996 Speaker 1: American Studies curriculum, there was a whole unit to address 466 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 1: this issue and they were featuring the author and scholar 467 00:28:59,316 --> 00:29:02,916 Speaker 1: activist Michelle Alexander. Yes, I said scholar activism, because in 468 00:29:02,956 --> 00:29:05,756 Speaker 1: Black studies a lot of people are scholar activists. That's 469 00:29:05,796 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: just the way it is. So people read excerpts from 470 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:11,196 Speaker 1: the New Gym Crow that was in the curriculum, and 471 00:29:11,276 --> 00:29:14,676 Speaker 1: now it's been cut out, it has been removed altogether. 472 00:29:15,036 --> 00:29:17,356 Speaker 1: The AP is moving to this space where some material 473 00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 1: may not actually be used on the test, but you 474 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:24,356 Speaker 1: can opt into studying more deeply a topic. And for 475 00:29:24,676 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: this particular topic, it couldn't be more pressing as a 476 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,476 Speaker 1: societal issue, covering everything from the war on crime and 477 00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:34,716 Speaker 1: the war on drugs to systemic policing and of course, 478 00:29:34,756 --> 00:29:38,316 Speaker 1: as I've already said, this massive punishment system. Okay, so 479 00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 1: we're talking about Michelle Alexander and the New Gym Crow, 480 00:29:41,156 --> 00:29:43,116 Speaker 1: and you told me that you were going to have 481 00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 1: dinner with her last Saturday, and that you were going 482 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 1: to try to record her to just hear a response 483 00:29:48,556 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 1: to how she felt about being cut out of this curriculum. Yeah, 484 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:53,516 Speaker 1: the timing couldn't have been better. We were planning to 485 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:55,316 Speaker 1: have this conversation and I was going to have a 486 00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 1: chance to talk to her about it. So we're at 487 00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 1: a dinner party, folks are doing the dishes. We've just 488 00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: finished up, and it was a little awkward, I'll admit, 489 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 1: because you know, Michelle Alexander's like super famous and she's 490 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:09,476 Speaker 1: my friend. But it felt like I was crossing line 491 00:30:09,556 --> 00:30:14,036 Speaker 1: between like, Okay, by the way, I want to hear 492 00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:16,516 Speaker 1: your thoughts on this issue, which has everything to do 493 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 1: with That's what it means, That's what it means to 494 00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,556 Speaker 1: be a professional podcast. You got you gotta do the work, 495 00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:24,436 Speaker 1: all right. You know she understands. So so here's what 496 00:30:24,516 --> 00:30:28,956 Speaker 1: she said. I guess I would say that I'm sorry 497 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:34,076 Speaker 1: to see it being part of the fascist backlash in 498 00:30:34,236 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 1: Florida to the teaching of truth about our past and 499 00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:46,356 Speaker 1: our present. I'm not surprised, but I also hope that 500 00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:51,236 Speaker 1: the teaching of this history isn't limited ever to people 501 00:30:51,276 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 1: who have good GPAs and have access to AP courses. 502 00:30:56,396 --> 00:30:59,716 Speaker 1: I'm dreaming of freedom schools that make this kind of 503 00:30:59,836 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: education available to all students of all colors, no matter 504 00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:07,716 Speaker 1: what their background or their GPA, or whether it's a 505 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:12,716 Speaker 1: college board course or something that's being taught in someone's 506 00:31:12,796 --> 00:31:17,116 Speaker 1: kitchen or backyard. I think this is history. Well, y'all 507 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:20,836 Speaker 1: need to know. Good job Khalil getting that tape. That's 508 00:31:20,956 --> 00:31:25,316 Speaker 1: that's the work that's in fascist backlash, the truth and 509 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:29,116 Speaker 1: her talking about AP as. You know, there is something 510 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:32,396 Speaker 1: I guess elitist about it, but that the education that 511 00:31:32,436 --> 00:31:35,276 Speaker 1: we're talking about, it needs to happen all over the place, 512 00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:37,636 Speaker 1: and it's great that she's focusing on ways to get 513 00:31:37,676 --> 00:31:41,316 Speaker 1: this information elsewhere besides from an AP curriculum. Well, I 514 00:31:41,356 --> 00:31:43,956 Speaker 1: just saw just to echo your point in what she said. 515 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:46,956 Speaker 1: I was actually surprised by her response in that way, 516 00:31:47,396 --> 00:31:50,276 Speaker 1: because what she said is, yeah, this is this is 517 00:31:50,316 --> 00:31:54,756 Speaker 1: fascism binding its way out of Florida and impacting the 518 00:31:54,796 --> 00:31:56,356 Speaker 1: rest of the nation. And of course this is not 519 00:31:56,436 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: the first or only example we could point to, but 520 00:31:59,516 --> 00:32:03,276 Speaker 1: she's like, this material is so important that it needs 521 00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:06,276 Speaker 1: to be taught, whether it's in classes, classrooms or not. 522 00:32:06,956 --> 00:32:09,916 Speaker 1: And that's the bigger issue because, you know, to use 523 00:32:09,956 --> 00:32:12,956 Speaker 1: a very academic way of putting it, Black studies has 524 00:32:12,996 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 1: always been about fugitive knowledge, meaning knowledge that was being policed, 525 00:32:18,636 --> 00:32:22,716 Speaker 1: knowledge that was criminalized. Because knowledge, as we say, as 526 00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:27,236 Speaker 1: you know, the Old Schoolhouse rocks, you know, little animations 527 00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:30,916 Speaker 1: would say, knowledge is power, and so the power to 528 00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:35,396 Speaker 1: diagnose one's condition matters. And I just want to go 529 00:32:35,436 --> 00:32:40,356 Speaker 1: back to the College Board because so Michelle's book is omitted, 530 00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:45,356 Speaker 1: and really everything contemporary is emitted, and you know, sort 531 00:32:45,356 --> 00:32:48,956 Speaker 1: of history kind of stops in the nineteen sixties. The 532 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:51,316 Speaker 1: College Board says that it cut out most of these 533 00:32:51,356 --> 00:32:55,596 Speaker 1: books because they're not primary sources. They're secondary sources, that's right. 534 00:32:56,316 --> 00:32:58,236 Speaker 1: You know, like a primary source would be like an 535 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:01,236 Speaker 1: Audrey Lord poem or or Martin Luther King's letter from 536 00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:04,876 Speaker 1: a Birmingham jail. But that a work of history, or 537 00:33:04,916 --> 00:33:08,956 Speaker 1: a work of journalism or a work of criticism that's secondary. 538 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:12,356 Speaker 1: That's right, And that's kind of bogus. It's a very 539 00:33:12,436 --> 00:33:16,316 Speaker 1: blurred line between what is primary and secondary, in part 540 00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:20,036 Speaker 1: because as history evolves, those things change. What is secondary 541 00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:23,636 Speaker 1: in one moment later becomes primary I mean diary entries, 542 00:33:23,756 --> 00:33:28,116 Speaker 1: letters between people, even news reporting in the moment, say 543 00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:32,996 Speaker 1: news reporting about the Civil War or the Civil rights movement, 544 00:33:33,036 --> 00:33:38,196 Speaker 1: all primary documents today and generally when historians write from 545 00:33:38,236 --> 00:33:41,036 Speaker 1: the position of the present looking back on that stuff, 546 00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:44,716 Speaker 1: we call that secondary sources. And the thing about Michelle's 547 00:33:44,716 --> 00:33:46,956 Speaker 1: work just to focus on that, in particular, the New 548 00:33:47,036 --> 00:33:50,516 Speaker 1: Gem Crow. It was a cultural touchstone for a massive 549 00:33:50,556 --> 00:33:54,636 Speaker 1: re education or not even re education, new learning about 550 00:33:54,716 --> 00:33:57,556 Speaker 1: the scale of the system at this punishment system and 551 00:33:57,556 --> 00:34:00,756 Speaker 1: where it came from, meaning what its origins were. So 552 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:04,956 Speaker 1: it changed not only hearts and minds. I saw people 553 00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:08,396 Speaker 1: as in diverse as settings as reading on the New 554 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:10,436 Speaker 1: York City sub way when it first came out, to 555 00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:14,196 Speaker 1: folks on the beach in Martha's Vineyard reading it. I mean, 556 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:16,756 Speaker 1: everybody was reading the New Gym Crow at some point, 557 00:34:17,156 --> 00:34:20,636 Speaker 1: and of course people organized around it and used it 558 00:34:20,676 --> 00:34:23,876 Speaker 1: to make policy claims. So it's hard to say ten 559 00:34:23,956 --> 00:34:25,876 Speaker 1: years later whether or not the New Gym Crow is 560 00:34:25,876 --> 00:34:28,756 Speaker 1: a quote unquote primary or secondary source. What is clear 561 00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:32,516 Speaker 1: is that it's essential. Listen. I just had I made 562 00:34:32,516 --> 00:34:35,196 Speaker 1: a timeline for the beginning of my book called Corrections 563 00:34:35,196 --> 00:34:39,596 Speaker 1: about the prison system. And I put the publication of 564 00:34:39,636 --> 00:34:44,156 Speaker 1: our book in the timeline because it's a historically important moment. 565 00:34:44,676 --> 00:34:48,636 Speaker 1: It is this reevaluation marking toward this movement that in 566 00:34:48,676 --> 00:34:52,396 Speaker 1: the last I don't know, ten years or so towards decarceration. 567 00:34:52,836 --> 00:34:56,076 Speaker 1: You know, President Obama is the first president to enter 568 00:34:56,076 --> 00:34:58,716 Speaker 1: a federal prison after this book is published ever. And 569 00:34:58,756 --> 00:35:02,156 Speaker 1: I'd say because of this book. Because of this book, 570 00:35:02,556 --> 00:35:06,316 Speaker 1: it is it marks a moment in time when thinking 571 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:10,676 Speaker 1: about prisons and our system of incarcerating a quarter of 572 00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:14,916 Speaker 1: the world's prison population changes, and what an important thing 573 00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:18,356 Speaker 1: to study just as a historical document. That's an historical moment. 574 00:35:18,436 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 1: That's right, yea. But listen, as you said, it's bogus 575 00:35:21,956 --> 00:35:25,436 Speaker 1: that the College Board is saying this issue about secondary 576 00:35:25,436 --> 00:35:27,996 Speaker 1: and primary because that's not really the issue here. I mean, 577 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:30,556 Speaker 1: we're we've sort of been talking about this throughout. The 578 00:35:30,596 --> 00:35:34,756 Speaker 1: real issue is that these current events, that contemporary issues 579 00:35:35,236 --> 00:35:38,436 Speaker 1: are in some ways the most threatening, and they're also 580 00:35:38,636 --> 00:35:42,516 Speaker 1: and they're also the easiest to turn into round Santis 581 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:46,036 Speaker 1: or Trump or whoever propaganda. They're the easiest sort of 582 00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:49,756 Speaker 1: to fire people up about. That's right. Yeah, And it's 583 00:35:49,756 --> 00:35:52,156 Speaker 1: not just Michelle Alexander. Just to mention a couple of 584 00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:56,636 Speaker 1: other things, the whole issue of healthcare discrimination. I mean, 585 00:35:56,956 --> 00:36:00,676 Speaker 1: so many people now have a better sense of how 586 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:04,436 Speaker 1: racism in our healthcare system because of COVID nineteen is 587 00:36:04,476 --> 00:36:08,276 Speaker 1: a life or death matter. And people like Dorothy Roberts, 588 00:36:08,316 --> 00:36:11,036 Speaker 1: who we've had on show recently talking about the family 589 00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:17,956 Speaker 1: policing system, has been a major contributor to understanding this 590 00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:24,316 Speaker 1: broad history of medical racism and healthcare discrimination and the 591 00:36:24,476 --> 00:36:27,556 Speaker 1: tackle on black women's reproductive rights. And it's not just 592 00:36:27,636 --> 00:36:30,516 Speaker 1: Dorothy Roberts, it's the entire Black Lives Matter movement that 593 00:36:30,636 --> 00:36:32,676 Speaker 1: was in the first version of this thing is now 594 00:36:32,756 --> 00:36:37,036 Speaker 1: completely gone, which is astounding, And it just goes on 595 00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:40,236 Speaker 1: and on at the end of the day. Yeah, And 596 00:36:40,556 --> 00:36:43,476 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's really important to reiterate again that 597 00:36:43,516 --> 00:36:47,556 Speaker 1: this is not a history curriculum. This is not African 598 00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:51,316 Speaker 1: American history curriculum. It's not an ap history class. It's 599 00:36:51,396 --> 00:36:54,796 Speaker 1: it's African American studies. So I guess you can make 600 00:36:54,836 --> 00:36:57,036 Speaker 1: the argument that history is sort of said in a moment, 601 00:36:57,276 --> 00:37:00,956 Speaker 1: but sort of studying, say, the Black experience in America 602 00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:03,236 Speaker 1: to remove sort of anything from the present sort of 603 00:37:03,236 --> 00:37:06,996 Speaker 1: even how that path reverberates up to. Now, that's not 604 00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:10,356 Speaker 1: you're not looking at the field. That's you're cutting yourself off. 605 00:37:10,356 --> 00:37:12,796 Speaker 1: You're not only not looking at the field. But here 606 00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:16,636 Speaker 1: we are having a national conversation yet again about systemic 607 00:37:16,836 --> 00:37:20,236 Speaker 1: police violence in the case of the murder of Tyree 608 00:37:20,356 --> 00:37:23,276 Speaker 1: Nichols and Memphis that happened just a few weeks ago, 609 00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:28,516 Speaker 1: and this is something that Congress is currently debating. I mean, 610 00:37:28,756 --> 00:37:32,036 Speaker 1: you remember those scholastic newspapers that were current events like 611 00:37:33,196 --> 00:37:37,516 Speaker 1: this is this is current events, and it's depressing current events, 612 00:37:37,516 --> 00:37:39,556 Speaker 1: but it's most certainly current events. It's part of the 613 00:37:39,556 --> 00:37:41,516 Speaker 1: world we live in. And guess what if you happen 614 00:37:41,556 --> 00:37:44,756 Speaker 1: to be a black child and you're living in a household, 615 00:37:44,756 --> 00:37:48,636 Speaker 1: either in Memphis or where your parents are concerned about this, 616 00:37:48,716 --> 00:37:52,076 Speaker 1: and they're watching the news, You're being exposed to this information. 617 00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:55,236 Speaker 1: You can't escape it. So at the end of the day, 618 00:37:55,276 --> 00:37:58,476 Speaker 1: if we are actually to truly understand what black studies 619 00:37:58,516 --> 00:38:02,396 Speaker 1: had always been about, it is the basic building block 620 00:38:02,596 --> 00:38:07,156 Speaker 1: for connecting the dots from the past of slave patrols 621 00:38:07,396 --> 00:38:11,156 Speaker 1: to racist sheriff's in the gem Crow South, to the 622 00:38:11,236 --> 00:38:14,596 Speaker 1: kind of policing that's been going on all over America 623 00:38:14,676 --> 00:38:18,076 Speaker 1: over the last fifty years. That's what Black studies empower 624 00:38:18,156 --> 00:38:21,716 Speaker 1: students to understand and gives them the choice at the 625 00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:26,236 Speaker 1: end to do something about it or not. Yeah, you know, 626 00:38:26,996 --> 00:38:29,396 Speaker 1: it makes me think about a lot of the the 627 00:38:29,596 --> 00:38:33,916 Speaker 1: energy that has fueled this political censorship, you know, from 628 00:38:33,956 --> 00:38:36,836 Speaker 1: from critical race theory and the and the sixteen nineteen 629 00:38:36,876 --> 00:38:40,676 Speaker 1: project to this ap curriculum and this idea of a 630 00:38:40,796 --> 00:38:45,716 Speaker 1: kind of patriotic education. You know, of of of something 631 00:38:45,716 --> 00:38:48,316 Speaker 1: about America that you can only think of it in 632 00:38:48,396 --> 00:38:51,916 Speaker 1: terms of all its ideals. And you know, you, if 633 00:38:51,916 --> 00:38:55,796 Speaker 1: you're white, you shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable about 634 00:38:55,836 --> 00:38:59,636 Speaker 1: all of it. It's problematic aspects. Um maybe you should 635 00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:03,756 Speaker 1: celebrate other you know, other races, but maybe even not um. 636 00:39:03,796 --> 00:39:05,636 Speaker 1: And and that's sort of been behind a lot of this. 637 00:39:05,756 --> 00:39:09,316 Speaker 1: It's such a it's such a like almost it's a 638 00:39:09,396 --> 00:39:13,756 Speaker 1: childish view of history that things are that are uncomfortable, 639 00:39:13,756 --> 00:39:15,596 Speaker 1: if you just sort of close your eyes to them, 640 00:39:15,836 --> 00:39:19,076 Speaker 1: then they don't exist. African American history and studies has 641 00:39:19,156 --> 00:39:23,076 Speaker 1: always been, in some ironic way, a way of just saying, 642 00:39:23,596 --> 00:39:26,236 Speaker 1: be true to what you put on paper, as doctor 643 00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:28,596 Speaker 1: King wants it, like just live up to your own 644 00:39:28,716 --> 00:39:34,396 Speaker 1: fucking principles, and and like like what are we supposed 645 00:39:34,396 --> 00:39:37,436 Speaker 1: to do with that. We can't even do that without 646 00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:44,196 Speaker 1: laws being passed to say that is propaganda. So that's 647 00:39:44,236 --> 00:39:46,276 Speaker 1: where we are right now, and that's why this is 648 00:39:46,316 --> 00:39:51,396 Speaker 1: such a massive issue that isn't going to stop. Yeah, yeah, 649 00:39:51,476 --> 00:39:54,756 Speaker 1: you're making me think about Michelle Alexander and what she 650 00:39:54,836 --> 00:40:00,116 Speaker 1: said to you that the ap curriculum is really important 651 00:40:00,116 --> 00:40:02,876 Speaker 1: in all the ways that we've been talking about, and 652 00:40:02,916 --> 00:40:07,516 Speaker 1: it's also symbolic. So it's it's actual students and a curriculum, 653 00:40:07,716 --> 00:40:12,876 Speaker 1: and it's also symbolic of all of the censorship and 654 00:40:12,916 --> 00:40:16,036 Speaker 1: the exclusion that's going on right now. And it's scary 655 00:40:16,316 --> 00:40:20,076 Speaker 1: both for what it is and and for what it augurs, 656 00:40:20,076 --> 00:40:23,236 Speaker 1: what it pretends, what it makes us think is possible 657 00:40:23,596 --> 00:40:28,196 Speaker 1: in excluding more and more and more. And I've been 658 00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:32,476 Speaker 1: thinking in our conversation about Baldwin and then also about 659 00:40:32,516 --> 00:40:36,836 Speaker 1: the new Jim Crow, about a moment last year when 660 00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:41,676 Speaker 1: I was actually teaching Baldwin inside a maximum security prison 661 00:40:41,836 --> 00:40:44,676 Speaker 1: here in Illinois. It was late Baldwin. I mean, it 662 00:40:44,716 --> 00:40:47,076 Speaker 1: was sort of Baldwin in the nineteen eighties during the 663 00:40:47,116 --> 00:40:50,196 Speaker 1: Reagan era before his death. I think he dies in 664 00:40:50,236 --> 00:40:56,556 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, right, he does, and Baldwin depressed. Baldwin, 665 00:40:56,636 --> 00:41:01,476 Speaker 1: Baldwin feeling defeated by history. Baldwin, who his friends from 666 00:41:01,476 --> 00:41:04,836 Speaker 1: the civil rights and Black power movement are mostly gone, 667 00:41:05,036 --> 00:41:09,316 Speaker 1: had been killed, feeling like everything from them home and 668 00:41:09,356 --> 00:41:13,516 Speaker 1: had failed. And the students, most of them who had 669 00:41:13,876 --> 00:41:17,396 Speaker 1: who were roughly our age and had been in prison 670 00:41:17,436 --> 00:41:21,196 Speaker 1: since they were young men or teenagers, and most of 671 00:41:21,196 --> 00:41:24,876 Speaker 1: them had no outdate, and they had such long sentences 672 00:41:25,156 --> 00:41:27,556 Speaker 1: that they were likely to die in prison or to 673 00:41:27,636 --> 00:41:30,236 Speaker 1: be elderly by the time they get out. They do 674 00:41:30,396 --> 00:41:36,996 Speaker 1: have those sentences, and how much Baldwin meant to them 675 00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:43,036 Speaker 1: in understanding the Reagan era and the Trump era and 676 00:41:43,436 --> 00:41:48,476 Speaker 1: the excitement that was happening, like crackling, you mean, being 677 00:41:48,476 --> 00:41:52,476 Speaker 1: able to understand how Baldwin the same things happening thirty 678 00:41:52,556 --> 00:41:55,836 Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, And just like when you're in a 679 00:41:55,916 --> 00:41:59,436 Speaker 1: classroom and and you know, sparks are flying and it's 680 00:41:59,476 --> 00:42:03,236 Speaker 1: crackling with energy because people are making these connections. It 681 00:42:03,356 --> 00:42:06,036 Speaker 1: was I could see it better because I was sort 682 00:42:06,036 --> 00:42:10,676 Speaker 1: of experiencing it, you know, inside this crepid maximum security prison. 683 00:42:11,276 --> 00:42:14,316 Speaker 1: What a what a curriculum can actually do to sort 684 00:42:14,316 --> 00:42:16,676 Speaker 1: of bring these things together? You know, it's it's it's 685 00:42:16,876 --> 00:42:20,556 Speaker 1: it's liberating. I mean, quick quick addendum to what you described. 686 00:42:20,636 --> 00:42:24,316 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the most affecting things I've experienced 687 00:42:24,556 --> 00:42:27,916 Speaker 1: is talking to a formally incarcerated person and them say 688 00:42:28,036 --> 00:42:32,196 Speaker 1: to me, man, brothers, nice to meet you. You're one 689 00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:35,756 Speaker 1: of the most well read people in prison. And by 690 00:42:35,796 --> 00:42:39,396 Speaker 1: that they mean people are reading the Condemnation of Blackness 691 00:42:39,596 --> 00:42:43,596 Speaker 1: and it's helping them make sense of their reality. That's, 692 00:42:43,676 --> 00:42:46,916 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, very personally gratifying. But I know 693 00:42:47,196 --> 00:42:51,556 Speaker 1: that that this is exactly what your teaching experience has 694 00:42:51,556 --> 00:42:54,596 Speaker 1: been like for you. Yeah, and this is it's you know, 695 00:42:54,676 --> 00:42:56,636 Speaker 1: a moment like that in that classroom of sort of 696 00:42:56,636 --> 00:42:59,996 Speaker 1: having to look at Baldwin again much more closely, having 697 00:42:59,996 --> 00:43:02,836 Speaker 1: to think about the past, which isn't that far away. 698 00:43:02,916 --> 00:43:05,676 Speaker 1: You know that this is nineteen eights, which is excluded 699 00:43:05,676 --> 00:43:08,996 Speaker 1: from this APE curriculum, and thinking about our last five 700 00:43:09,276 --> 00:43:13,396 Speaker 1: ten years. Um, it made sense to me. It made 701 00:43:13,396 --> 00:43:16,756 Speaker 1: sense to me more. And you know that's what you 702 00:43:16,796 --> 00:43:18,716 Speaker 1: want out of this. We don't want to ignore it. 703 00:43:18,756 --> 00:43:20,516 Speaker 1: We want to try to sort of get inside of 704 00:43:20,516 --> 00:43:24,276 Speaker 1: these this these stories of our of our country. Yeah. So, 705 00:43:24,316 --> 00:43:26,676 Speaker 1: I mean in so many ways. You know, what this 706 00:43:26,756 --> 00:43:32,396 Speaker 1: moment tells us is that knowledge is the building block 707 00:43:32,636 --> 00:43:36,876 Speaker 1: for changing our society. And Rod de Santist knows that 708 00:43:36,916 --> 00:43:40,476 Speaker 1: as well as anybody. And he's cutting off that. Yeah, 709 00:43:40,516 --> 00:43:42,956 Speaker 1: you're not saying listen in a positive way, like you're 710 00:43:42,996 --> 00:43:47,276 Speaker 1: saying that the opposition knows that there's there's there's power 711 00:43:47,316 --> 00:43:50,476 Speaker 1: and danger and people knowing too much absolutely that's right, 712 00:43:50,556 --> 00:43:54,676 Speaker 1: and seeing things for what they are. And therefore we 713 00:43:54,916 --> 00:43:57,876 Speaker 1: if those of us committed to truth, those of us 714 00:43:57,916 --> 00:44:01,676 Speaker 1: committed to justice, this is all of our fight. And 715 00:44:02,676 --> 00:44:04,996 Speaker 1: you know he's coming for ap African American studies today. 716 00:44:05,036 --> 00:44:09,596 Speaker 1: It'll be women in gender studies tomorrow. So folks, folks, 717 00:44:09,596 --> 00:44:13,276 Speaker 1: folks better get get ready, get your armor on. Yeah. Man, 718 00:44:13,596 --> 00:44:15,836 Speaker 1: well I'm glad. I'm glad I have this fight with you, 719 00:44:16,476 --> 00:44:18,756 Speaker 1: or at least that we are in this fight. That's right. 720 00:44:18,956 --> 00:44:21,356 Speaker 1: I'm not fighting with you right now. We're in this together, 721 00:44:23,436 --> 00:44:32,916 Speaker 1: all right, man, Love you, Love you too. Some of 722 00:44:32,956 --> 00:44:36,156 Speaker 1: My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. 723 00:44:36,436 --> 00:44:39,276 Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron 724 00:44:39,356 --> 00:44:42,476 Speaker 1: Mohammed and my best friend Ben Austin. This show is 725 00:44:42,516 --> 00:44:46,556 Speaker 1: produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Sarah Knicks, our 726 00:44:46,636 --> 00:44:52,996 Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda Kawan, and our managing producer is Constanza Gallardo. 727 00:44:53,516 --> 00:44:59,276 Speaker 1: At Pushkin, Thanks Selita Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Niggliori, 728 00:44:59,716 --> 00:45:04,516 Speaker 1: John Schnars, Gretta Khne, and Jacob Weissberg. Our theme song, 729 00:45:04,916 --> 00:45:08,956 Speaker 1: Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the Brilliant Avery R. Young, 730 00:45:09,316 --> 00:45:12,156 Speaker 1: from his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out 731 00:45:12,156 --> 00:45:15,596 Speaker 1: his music at his website Avery R Young dot com. 732 00:45:15,716 --> 00:45:19,316 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin pods, 733 00:45:19,636 --> 00:45:22,236 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 734 00:45:22,356 --> 00:45:26,116 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 735 00:45:26,196 --> 00:45:30,196 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen. 736 00:45:30,556 --> 00:45:32,996 Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a 737 00:45:32,996 --> 00:45:35,636 Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen even if 738 00:45:35,636 --> 00:45:37,276 Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 739 00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:40,156 Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best 740 00:45:40,196 --> 00:45:59,276 Speaker 1: friends about it. Thank you. Woke, Woke, indoctrinization, indoctrination indoctrinization 741 00:45:59,636 --> 00:46:05,516 Speaker 1: is it indoctrination in doctrine, woke indoctrination