1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. On October twenty third, 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, the United States Marine Corps experienced its 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: greatest single day loss of life since the Battle of Iwajima, 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: when a truck packed with explosives crashed into their headquarters 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: in barracks in Beirut Lebanon. This horrifying terrorist attack, which 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: killed two hundred and forty one US Marines, fifty eight 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: French soldiers, and six civilians, continues to influence US foreign 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: policy and haunts the Marine Corps this day. Now the 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: full story is revealed and the new book targeted the 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: route the nineteen eighty three Marine Barracks bombing and the 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: Untold True Origin Story of the War on Terror by 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: Jack Carr and historian and Pulitzer Prize finalist James M. Scott. 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: Based on comprehensive interviews with survivors, extensive military records, as 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: well as personal letters, diaries, and photographs, this is the 15 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: authoritative account of the deadly attack. So I am really pleased, 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 1: in the midst of everything we're watching in the Middle 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: East to welcome my guest, James M. Scott. He is 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: a Pulitzer Prize finalist, former Nieman Fellow, at Harvard, the 19 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,919 Speaker 1: author of Target Tokyo, Black Snow Rampage, The War Below, 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: and The Attack on the Liberty. He is currently the 21 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: Scholar and Residence at the Citadel. James, welcome, Thank you 22 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: for joining me on this world, and congratulations to both 23 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: you and Jack. Targeted Beirut debuted at number five on 24 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: the New York Times Nonfiction bestseller list this week. That 25 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: is a major accomplishment. 26 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, newod and thank you for having 27 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: us on. It's a real privilege and honor to join 28 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: you and to be able to talk a little bit 29 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: about this tragic moment in American history. 30 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: Before we began to discuss target a Beirut. What was 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: your experience like when you became a twenty sixteen Pulitzer 32 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: Prize finalist in history for your book Target Tokyo, Jimmy 33 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: Doolittle and the Raid that Avenge Pearl Harbor. 34 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: It was a total surprise. In fact, I'll never forget 35 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 2: that day. I was actually helping my daughter, who was 36 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: then in the third grade, with her homework after school, 37 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: and suddenly my cell phone just blew up with notifications 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: and I looked down and it was thirty or forty emails, 39 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of Twitter notifications, and I was looking 40 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 2: through and I saw an email from a buddy of 41 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: mine who's a former journalist, being like, hey, you know, congratulations. 42 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: You know you didn't quite get it, but you're at 43 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: least a finalist. And I'm like finalist for what? And 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: I kept going through, and then I saw an email 45 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: from my editor with the news and was totally blown 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: away by it. I was not aware that, you know, Norton, 47 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: my publisher, had even submitted the book for consideration. At 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: some point along the way. They had mentioned that, you know, 49 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: award season they submit books and things of that nature. 50 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: But it totally caught me off guard. And so it 51 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: was a pretty awesome day. As you can imagine, what 52 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 2: led you to become a writer. I always enjoyed writing. 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: I always enjoyed the creativity behind it, you know, And 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: of course I always loved history, and so for me 55 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: it was an unusual path into it, and that I 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: finished up in college and my first job out of 57 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: college was actually as a public school teacher in Japan, 58 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: and so most of my work, of course has been 59 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: dealing with the Pacific War in World War two, and 60 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: so here I was twenty two to twenty three years old, 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: teaching school in the nineteen nineties in Japan, and there 62 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: were still a lot of survivors of World War two 63 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: and veterans around there at that time period. And I'll 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: never forget I went to Hiroshima one weekend, saw the 65 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: museum there in the Gimbaco Dome. And then about two 66 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: weeks later, I flew to Hawaii and met my parents, 67 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: and my father had been a naval officers retired, I 68 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: went and visit Pearl Harbor, and so for the span 69 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: of about two weeks, I kind of saw the book 70 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: ends of America's experience in World War Two. It just 71 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: lit a fire, you know. I started reading everything I 72 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: could get my hands on and about World War Two. 73 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: I came back to the United States, I knew I 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: wanted to write, which journalism was about the only thing 75 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: you could do where you could actually earn a paycheck 76 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: and scribble words for a living. So I ended up 77 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: as a newspaper reporter for a few years, covered the military. 78 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: And it was fortunate enough when I was about the 79 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: age of thirty to get an even fellowship, and I 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: went off and I could see what was happening in 81 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: the print business at that time, and I realized that 82 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: newspapers might not be around and thirty or forty years, 83 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: at least in the form they were then. So I 84 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: needed to kind of reinvent myself, and so I met 85 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: a book agent, sold my first book, and here we 86 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: are twenty years later and working on book seven. It's 87 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: been a real, real, awesome journey. 88 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: That's really tremendous. I have to ask you one question 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: about Target Tokyo, because I've always been intrigued with the origins. 90 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: There was such an unlikely event, and in many ways 91 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: such an American event. Two package Army Air Corps bombers, 92 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: put them on a carrier and basically engage in psychological warfare. 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: What's your sense of where that idea came from. It's 94 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: so unlike the bureaucracy, it's so daring. What was the 95 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: origin of that? 96 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 2: It's really a unique origin. I mean, of course, at 97 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: that moment, you know, in those dark early days after 98 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: the attack on Pearl Harbor, FDR was really pushing his 99 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: service chiefs to find a way to strike back at Japan. 100 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: Of course, there was no real way for us to 101 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: do it, at least initially because you know, so many 102 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: of our forward bases had fallen, you know, Guam, Wake 103 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: the Philippines was under siege at that moment, and our 104 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: aircraft carriers, which had fortunately escaped destruction at Pearl Harbor, 105 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: were simply too valuable to risks sending all the way 106 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: into the enemy's backyard, and so it really seemed like 107 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: there was no viable way to attack Japan until Ernest King, 108 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: who was the chief Naval Operations at the time, one 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: of his senior staffers, who was a submariner of all things, 110 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: happened to be down at Norfolk checking out on the Horn, 111 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: which was a new carrier about to come online, and 112 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: he happened to see naval aviators practicing takeoffs on an 113 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 2: air strip that was designed to look like have sort 114 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: of chalked out to where an aircraft carrier deck would 115 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: be to kind of give them a sense of their distances. 116 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: And that vision just sparked an idea. He said, what 117 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: if instead of using naval planes, you know, which have 118 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: a short range, you know, single engine planes, what if 119 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: we swap those out for twin engine army bombers. And 120 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: that's really the spark that triggered the idea. Of course, 121 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: vetting that idea would then fall to you know, more 122 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 2: experienced airmen, you know, both with the army forces and 123 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: of course the Navy, but the lion's share of it 124 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: fell to Jimmy Doolotle at that point. 125 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: Was there substantial resistance to doing it? 126 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: No, there wasn't. This period of time, I mean, America 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: is really looking for any way to strike back possible, 128 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: and so a lot of the service rivalries and things 129 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: of that nature really kind of fell to the wayside. 130 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: And I'll say this, sixteen weeks is all it took 131 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 2: to prepare and execute this audacious raid. You think about 132 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: trying to put together a joint operation like this nowadays. 133 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: I mean, God, in sixteen weeks, it would be impossible, 134 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 2: you know, but yet here they were, and they were 135 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: able to do it. You know, it required the Navy, 136 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: It required ten thousand sailors, you know, sixteen bombers, a 137 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: task force of shifts steam all the way across the Pacific. 138 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, they had to reconfigure these bombers 139 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: so that they could cover the distance. You strip out 140 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: the added weight, add more fuel, figure out airfields in China. 141 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: I mean, it's an incredible operation to be put together 142 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: in such a short period of time. 143 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: It's a great topic. Now with your new book, you 144 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: were co author with Jack Carr, who has become very 145 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: successful as a novelist. Amazingly so. He's a former Naval 146 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: seal and spend twenty years in Navy special warfare. I'm 147 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: curious what was it like to work together to start. 148 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: Co Jack's an awesome guy. I didn't know him personally 149 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: when he first reached out to me. In the last 150 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 2: couple of years, we've subsequently become really great friends, great collaborators. 151 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: So just to kind of back up a little bit, 152 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: so Jack had the idea for wanting to sort of 153 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: start a series of books looking at terrorism events and 154 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: sort of the effects of that on American policy, on 155 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: American survivors, and things of that nature. And so he 156 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: was looking to partner with somebody who had a background 157 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: and doing the research and military history, and so he'd 158 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: read some of my books and he reached out to me. 159 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: I didn't know Jack personally at the time. I knew 160 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: of his work. I'd watched the television show The Terminal List, 161 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 2: I'd read the books. In fact, I just finished reading 162 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: one of them when he reached out to me. So 163 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 2: it was very serendipitous, and he came to me initially 164 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: with the idea of Beirut. He said, you know, this 165 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: is the origin of so much of it. I'd like 166 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: to start there. And it just so happened that I 167 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: was going to a conference that weekend, military conference, and 168 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: I happened to be there with Charlie Neimeier, who's a 169 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: friend of mine who is the former director of Marine 170 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: Corps History. And I asked Charlie, and so I Charlie 171 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: had been approached about doing this project on Bayroute. You know, 172 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: what kind of stuff do you guys have in the 173 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: Marine Corps archives? He said, Man, We've got everything, he said, 174 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: we have the monthly command chronologies, we've got the weekly 175 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: sit reps, we've got the daily message traffic, We've got 176 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 2: an entire oral history collection that was done in nineteen 177 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: eighty two, nineteen eighty three. And he's like, furthermore, this 178 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: topic really needs to be done. And then I remembered 179 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: a buddy of mine from my master's program at the 180 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: Citadel had talked about Beirut periodically, you know'd come up 181 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: in time or two in classes, and so I texted 182 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: him and I said, you know, Mark, you had some 183 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 2: connection to be root. Remind me what it was. And 184 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: he immediately texted me back and he said that was 185 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: one of the rescuers that day. And He's like, I 186 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: can put you in touch with as many people as 187 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: you want to, and so you know, here it was 188 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: literally in the span of weekend. Jack and reached out. 189 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: I'm hearing from the director of Marine Corps History that 190 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: they've got all the documents that we need. A buddy 191 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 2: of mine can put us in touch with the survivors. 192 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just green lights, go go, go go, 193 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 2: and so Jack and I jumped on it right away. 194 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: We had phenomenal cooperation from the Marines that were there. 195 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: We did over one hundred hours of interviews with survivors, 196 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: you know, men who were there, who were buried under 197 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: the rubble, who worked on top of the rubble pile, 198 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: with the widows of men who were killed, the children, 199 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: the parents. We got over a thousand pages of diaries 200 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: and letters from the men who were there. And then 201 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: of course we married that with all the archival material 202 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: from the Marines and the Reagan Library and some smaller 203 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: institutions as. 204 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 3: Well, let's go back though to the beginning. 205 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: Why is the United States and Lebanon. 206 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Lebanon's a mess. And I'm sure you recall 207 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 2: this from your time in Congress those days. You know, 208 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: it was coming out of a long civil war that 209 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: started the nineteen seventies, a lot of secretary and violence 210 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: between the Christians, the Sunnis, and the Shiahs. Of course PLO. 211 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: The Palestinians had been sort of decamped from Jordan into Beirut. 212 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: They were using Beirut to attack the Israelis. The Israelis 213 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: were responding, and then Syria, which also wanted its share 214 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: of Lebanon, that was there as well. And then, of course, 215 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: amid all this chaos, the Iranians send in their own 216 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: revolutionary guardsmen to sort of set up terraced training camps. 217 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: And so all of this sort of mess is brewing 218 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: and whatnot, and sort of into this, the United States 219 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: decides to send eighteen hundred Marines is a stabilizing force, 220 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: and the Marines were part of a larger multinational peacekeeping force. 221 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: There were Italians, French, and British troops there as well, 222 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: but the idea was that these international troops would sort 223 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: of provide stability there while the PLO left and hopefully 224 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: the Lebanese National Government could sort of get on its 225 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: feet and sort of get things going again and bring 226 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: back a sense of stability that had long been lacking 227 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies there. So that's kind of the 228 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: backdrop for how the US Marines ended up in Lebanon. 229 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: We gradually seem to be more and more entangled in 230 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: the region and can't quite get out of it. And 231 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: in that setting you have the Iranians, in particular, methodically, 232 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: I think, trying to figure out how to go after us. 233 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: At that point, what's happening. There's almost this horrifying inevitability 234 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: leading up to the bombing. 235 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, there really is. And you know, it's kind of 236 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: like the Wild West in Lebanon at that point. You know, 237 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: there's all these different groups with competing interests. You know, 238 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: it's essentially a civil war in which other foreign countries 239 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: have sort of layered their own interest on top of 240 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 2: you know, the Iranians, the Israelis as Syrians, and of 241 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: course Iran at this point is really looking to spread 242 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: its revolution and they see an opportunity and the chaos 243 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: of Lebanon and so they come in and they set 244 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: up in the Pacava Valley, which is this sort of 245 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: lawless region up here Syria terrorist training camps. This is 246 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: going to be the incubator for their revolution that they're 247 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 2: going to spread here. And they also see an opportunity 248 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 2: to tap into the disenfranchised Shia, who are sort of 249 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: the low folks on the social demographic ladder there, and 250 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: sort of tap into how disenfranchised they are and to 251 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: recruit them to their cause. And of course the Marines 252 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: can see all this unfolding because here they are, they're 253 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: based at the Beirut International Airport, and they're surrounded by 254 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: these impoverished shantytowns, and they can see how the demographics 255 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 2: are changing in the communities around them where they're patrolling. 256 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 2: The women and children who are there initially suddenly start 257 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: to vanish and they're being replaced by young, military aged 258 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: males who are armed, and this coincides with an escalation 259 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: and violence against the Marines. Here. The Marines are kind 260 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: of like along the others, trying to put their fingers 261 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 2: in the dam to keep the chaos of Lebanon from 262 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: spiraling out of control. Into this comes these Iranian bad actors, 263 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: and they see this as an opportunity to target the 264 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 2: Americans to affect US foreign policy, and that's the play here. 265 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: So that's kind of what we see happening, and you 266 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 2: see it begins gradually. It begins initially in March of 267 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three with some attacks on patrols and things 268 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: like that. It's going to ramp up with the attack 269 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: on the US embassy in April of nineteen eighty three, 270 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: which is effectively a trial run for the type of 271 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: bombing that's going to happen against the Marines. In this case, 272 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: it's also a suicide bomber targets. The embassy destroys the 273 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: front of the building, killed sixty three people, including seventeen Americans. 274 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: And then throughout that summer the Marines are going to 275 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: start becoming victims of snipers, artillery rounds, and things like 276 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: that leading up to the October attack on the headquarters 277 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: and barracks. 278 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: Basically, are we trying to prop up a Lebanese government 279 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: that is in a sense multi religious or what's our mission? 280 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So our mission effectively is to prop up the 281 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: Lebanese central government, which is Christian at that point, effectively 282 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: try to prop up the status quo since the end 283 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: of World War Two, this sort of as you were 284 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: just explaining, sort of this hodgepodge of you know, Christian, 285 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: Sunnis and Shias have managed to govern together, and we're 286 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: trying to kind of prop that up. And we're also 287 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: trying to pressure the Christians to say, all right, you've 288 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: got to start giving up some of your power and 289 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: you've got to have some power sharing here, because what's 290 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 2: happened in those decades, you know, those four decades since 291 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: the end of World War two, is that the demographics 292 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: have changed. Christians are no longer the dominant population there. 293 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,239 Speaker 2: You know, you've got an explosion, particularly in the Shia community, 294 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: and so the equation you used to distribute power in 295 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven is not equal to what it is 296 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty three, and so the Christians are going 297 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: to have to give up power. So that's all part 298 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: of the dialogue that the United States is trying to 299 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: have at that time. Now, the challenge, of course, is 300 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: that the American mission changes. So when we initially go 301 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: in in late nineteen eighty two, it's really to get 302 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: the Palestinians out to get Yaser air Fat and his 303 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: fighters out of there, and then, of course, you know, 304 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: we decide we're going to stay a little bit longer 305 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: to try to sort of quail things. But then if 306 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: you look at Reagan's National Security Directive, he actually starts 307 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 2: moving from just a security thing to all right, how 308 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: can we sort of prop up and sort of get 309 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: their government back on its feet and sort of really 310 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: kind of get into the realm of nation building in 311 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: some way. That, of course, is a much different mission. 312 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: It's a bigger, longer mission, and of course it's going 313 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: to be what results in this tug of war inside 314 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: the administration between the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the 315 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: Defense Department and the Secretary of State and the National 316 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: Security Advisor. And so the mission that the Americans initially 317 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: go in with is going to ultimately change, and it's 318 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: going to best be described by Colonel Timothy Garrity, who's 319 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: the commander of the Marine, saying, the mission changed, but 320 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: no one changed the mission. And that's kind of the 321 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: situation the Marines find themselves caught in as things begin 322 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: to escalate in nineteen eighty three. 323 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: Who was responsible? How was it planned by the bad guys? 324 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: We talked about just a minute earlier about the bombing 325 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: of the US embassy, and that was kind of a 326 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 2: trial balloon and just to sort of gauge, you know, 327 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 2: whether or not such attacks would work. And of course 328 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 2: this is the beginning of hes Blah. And what it's 329 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 2: happened is as the Iranians come in and they set 330 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: up this terror training camp and they're sort of tapping 331 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: these young sheite groups to want to go into terrorism 332 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: and to fund them and equip them and whatnot. You 333 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: see a couple of these groups sort of rise up 334 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: during this time period of nineteen eighty two early nineteen 335 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 2: eighty three, and these groups are eventually going to merge 336 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 2: under our RAN's direction and become hes Blah. And so 337 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: their first attack, of course, is against the US embassy, 338 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: and it is a suicide car bomber. And of course 339 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: we didn't have the type of security that you now 340 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: see commonplace and a lot of our embassies. I mean, 341 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 2: they were literally saw horses outside things like that, and 342 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: so the driver was able really to get right up 343 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 2: in front and ran right into the front of the 344 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: US embassy, and that taught a very important lesson about 345 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: American security. And so they took that same idea one 346 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty eight days later and applied it to 347 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: the Marine headquarters and barracks, only this time it was 348 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: six to nine times more explosive, a bigger vehicle. It 349 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: was a truck, far more explosives that were there with 350 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: the exact same mo and how to do it. And 351 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 2: of course the Americans at that point didn't have the 352 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: kind of security because again this is where their mission 353 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: was kind of murky. You know, on the one hand, 354 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: you're there to be a stabilizing force and show the 355 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 2: flag and whatnot, and you can't do that if you're 356 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: living in sort of a bunker environment, you know, with 357 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: massive amounts of dragons, teeth and fortifications and things like that. 358 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: So that was kind of where the struggle really came 359 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: down upon the commander of the Marines. There is, on 360 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: the one hand, I'm here to show the flag and 361 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: on the other hand, I've got to protect my marines. 362 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: But I can't do both. Can't have a bunker mentality 363 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: and still be the face of the United States. And 364 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 2: so that kind of left them in this limbo, and 365 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: the Iranians were able to exploit that and to get 366 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 2: past their security. They picked a Sunday morning. They went 367 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: in at dawn six twenty one am. They'd been studying 368 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: the Americans. They knew that on Sunday mornings they slept in, 369 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: you know, that there wouldn't be much activity there, that 370 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: that would be a critical time to maximize their efforts 371 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: to break through our security. And that's exactly what happened. 372 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: Doesn't it surprise you looking back that we didn't have 373 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: more of a defense. 374 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 2: In depth, Yeah, it does. And the car bomb was 375 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 2: such a common thing in Lebanon at that point if 376 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: you go back and you look at the media accounts. 377 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 2: I mean, these things were going off every week throughout 378 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: a route, but they were different. Car bombs at that 379 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 2: time were stagnant. You know, you parked a car, you 380 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: walked away, you remotely detonated it. This was a significant 381 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: change that we didn't appreciate. After the bombing of the embassy, 382 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 2: a suicide bomber. Up until this point, that was a 383 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: novel that hadn't really happened, and of course we didn't 384 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: piece it together, nor did the Lebanese. In fact, the 385 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 2: Lebanese were telling the Americans, you know, hey, the embassy attack, 386 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: it's different, but it's a one off. You know, they 387 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 2: didn't see this foreshadowing a new trend in terrorism and 388 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: warfare until after the marine bombing. And of course nowadays 389 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: we have way more security, we've learned the lesson. We've 390 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: had our embassies hit in Kenya and Tanzania. You know, 391 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: we've had lots of these kinds of attacks around. But 392 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 2: you got to remember at this point, this was kind 393 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: of new for the Americans. At that point, they Route 394 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three is really it's the turning point. And 395 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: that's of course why we wanted to focus on this 396 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 2: one year, this one moment in history, because it is 397 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: it is the fulcrum on which so much shifts. 398 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: To what instead. Were the Iranians involved. 399 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 2: The Ranians were the ones that were providing the training, 400 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 2: the equipment of the explosives. They were the ones that 401 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: actually gave them the local fighters. They're the ones that 402 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: gave them the idea to go after the Marines. So 403 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: the Iranians were pulling the strings on this one hundred percent. 404 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 1: We did vote to keep the Marines in Lebanon before 405 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: this happened, and I have to admit I was one 406 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: of the people who actually voted yes that we should 407 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: keep them there because we were responding to the Reagan 408 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: administration's desire to show strength, which of course then kind 409 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: of fell apart. But if I remember correctly, the person 410 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: we thought was the primary planner was only finally killed 411 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: by the Israelis sometime in the last couple of months. 412 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: We knew who he was, we couldn't get him for 413 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 1: all these years. 414 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, Another one of the folks involved was just killed 415 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: just a couple of weeks ago, and so it's been 416 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: drip by drip kind of getting the payback for these 417 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: attacks all these years later. 418 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: When you looked at this whole thing and immersed yourself 419 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: in it, were we right to pull out him? And 420 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 1: was there any practical way to have stabilized Lebanon at 421 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: a reasonable price. 422 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: Up until the disintegration of the central government in early 423 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. That's when I think it really all 424 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: completely falls apart. There's no doubt looking back that this 425 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: was a very very difficult political diplomatic mission to pull off, 426 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: in part because the leader at that time, I mean, 427 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: I mean Jamael was just not a very likable figure 428 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 2: for most people in Lebanon. I mean, not only did 429 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 2: the Sunnies and she is not trust him, but a 430 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 2: lot of the Christians didn't like him either. And he 431 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: was kind of an heir apparent to his older brother Bashir, 432 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: who was killed and sassinated and who was a much 433 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: more popular figure and a much more commanding figure. And 434 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 2: so his brother really was just not a dynamic political leader. 435 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: Do we think the older brother was assassinated by the Syrians. 436 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: He wasn't assassinated by the Syrians. 437 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: There's this whole story of the Assad regime deliberately destabilizing 438 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: Lebanon to expand Syrian influence. When you really try to 439 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: put all this up on a whiteboard, you realize how 440 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: many different players there are, how many different factions. It's 441 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: mind blowing. 442 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: It is well, and the Syrians didn't like Vashir because 443 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 2: they felt he was too close to the Israelis. And 444 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: so the root of all this is really that tug 445 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 2: of war between Israel and Syria over who's going to 446 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: control their neighbor here, and so they're both kind of 447 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: playing this tug a war with Lebanon, and so Bashir 448 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 2: was much closer with the Israelis. The Americans liked him, 449 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: and so the Syrians did not like him, and so 450 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: once he's killed, they immediately pick his brother to be 451 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: sort of the air apparent. You gotta remember, this isn't 452 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: like a true democracy where everybody goes out and votes. 453 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: It's kind of like the party elders all get together 454 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: and sort of pick him. And so they pick a 455 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 2: me and Jimmiel, and he's just a weak figure who 456 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 2: was nothing like his brother, and he is who America 457 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 2: has no choice but to sort of latch onto at 458 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 2: this point to prop up. And so that's what I'm saying, 459 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: like it's a really really difficult proposition from the moment 460 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: we arrived there, that this is who We're pinning the 461 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: hopes of the United States on this guy, and he's 462 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 2: just unable to pull it off. And as the situation 463 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: gets worse and worse and worse, his credibility erodes, until 464 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: eventually it all collapses. After the bombing of the American 465 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 2: Marine barricks a few months later, it all collapses in February. 466 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 2: The army collapses, the government collapses, and at that point 467 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 2: it's just evolving back into civil war. And that's when 468 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: the Americans just says, you know what, with throwing her 469 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: hands up, we're out. And that was what Casper Weinberger 470 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 2: and the Joint chiefs wanted all along. You know, they 471 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: saw Lebanon as a side show from the larger fight, 472 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 2: which was the Cold War, and you know, they didn't 473 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 2: want to get pulled into a proxy battle here. They 474 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: were the ones that were pushing back all along, whereas 475 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 2: the State Department and National Security Council staff were the 476 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 2: ones wanting to push ahead in Lebanon. 477 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: I had noticed in your bio that you like to 478 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: lead battlefield tours. How did that start and what kind 479 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: of battlefields do you go on? 480 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: I started to you know, spent much my career writing 481 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: about World War Two, and you've written about World War 482 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: Two as well. I mean, it's such a great fascinating topic. 483 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: A number of years ago, the National World War Two 484 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: Museum in New Orleans had asked me to help put 485 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: together tours for them, and so we did put together 486 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: a tour on the Philippines. So we do the Battle 487 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 2: of Manila, we do the Baton Death March, Krigador, and 488 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: so I've led that tour for them for a number 489 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: of years. I also do their Victory in the Pacific tour, 490 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: which is Guam, Saipan, Tinian and Ewejima and also Pearl 491 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 2: Harber and then I also work with another company out 492 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 2: of the UK called the Cultural Experience, who does similar tours. 493 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: I do it for them. I do a Philippines store 494 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: as well, but I also do a Last Year of 495 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: the War in Japan's We do Okinawa, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and 496 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: Tokyo and the firebombing raids. You know, I love it. 497 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: I tried a lot of these places for my research, 498 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: you know, when I'm doing interviews and things like that 499 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: for different books, and so then the opportunity to take 500 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: guests and go experience them, I love doing it. 501 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: So if somebody wants to go on a military tour 502 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: with you, is there a website or where do they go? 503 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, go to James Mscott dot com and I have 504 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: on their events and Tours page and you can click 505 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: on there. You'll see all the tours I have coming 506 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: up in the next year or two. I've got four 507 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 2: coming up. In twenty twenty five, I'm doing a Marianna's tour, 508 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 2: and I'm doing a Tokyo tour, and then in the 509 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: spring of twenty twenty six, I'm doing two back to 510 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: back Philippines tours. And then another Marianna's tour, so it's 511 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 2: going out to the Pacific, and I love it. I mean, 512 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 2: you go to a place like Corrigador, which is the 513 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 2: fortified island right off of the Philippines, and it's just ponting. 514 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 2: You can go through the tunnels that the Americans had there, 515 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 2: you know, the old officer housing is there, the hospital, 516 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 2: the barracks. I mean, it's just a real opportunity to 517 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 2: see and experience what World War two must have been like. 518 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: That's remarkab what you mentioned. The Philippines campaign. My wife, 519 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: Callista's uncle is buried in the military cemetery and Luzan. 520 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: Oh. Yeah, that's the largest point outside the US, seventeen 521 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: thousand people buried right there in Manila. 522 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: He was killed very late in the war, during the 523 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: final phase of that campaign. She had other relatives who 524 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: fought in Europe who survived, okay, but the family always 525 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: felt as a tragedy. You know, that's a remarkable place. 526 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: I'm a historian by training, and we have too few 527 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: people who take the time to understand how history occurs 528 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: and to understand the different components. And if you study 529 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: Beirut or if you study the Philippines or you name it. 530 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: You'll approach today's problems differently if you have some sense 531 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: of the complexity of history and of being cautious. I 532 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: mean that it often doesn't quite evolve the way you 533 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: think it will. And I think what you're doing, both 534 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: in your writing and in your battlefield tours, it's a 535 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: terrific contribution to helping people better understand the world we 536 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: live in. I want to thank you for joining me. 537 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: Your new book with Jackcarr, Targeted Beyroot, the nineteen eighty 538 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: three Marine Barracks Bombing and the untold True Origin story 539 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: of the war and Terror is a tremendous book, as 540 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: I said earlier, New York Times bestseller, already available on 541 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: Amazon and bookstores everywhere. And we're also going to include 542 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: your personal link for people may want to come and 543 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: take a historic tour with you, which is an extra 544 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: bonus I think coming out of this conversation, James, I 545 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: really appreciate your sharing your ideas and your knowledge with us. 546 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: It's been a privilege and honor. Thank you so much 547 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: for having me on. 548 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest James M. Scott. You can 549 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: get a link to buy his new book with Jackcarr 550 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: targeted Bayroot on our show page at neutworld dot com. 551 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: New World is produced by Gangli three sixty and iHeartMedia. 552 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 553 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Friendley. 554 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If 555 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying news World, I hope you'll go to 556 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and 557 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 558 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of New World can sign 559 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: up for my three freeweekly columns at Gingrish three sixty 560 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingrich. This is newts 561 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: World