1 00:00:17,282 --> 00:00:37,172 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, and welcome back to The Spill. 2 00:00:37,192 --> 00:00:40,152 Speaker 2: It's the three of us here again together. 3 00:00:40,172 --> 00:00:41,132 Speaker 1: Hooray. 4 00:00:41,152 --> 00:00:42,512 Speaker 3: Hello. 5 00:00:43,312 --> 00:00:47,082 Speaker 2: I'm Amy Westervelt. I'm joined by Aline Brown and Nina Lakhani. 6 00:00:47,222 --> 00:00:51,842 Speaker 2: And today we're going to talk about increasing criminalization of 7 00:00:51,862 --> 00:00:56,442 Speaker 2: environmental protesters across the board, but especially what's happening in 8 00:00:56,542 --> 00:01:00,752 Speaker 2: Honduras with the Garifuna, which is a community that Nina's 9 00:01:00,792 --> 00:01:04,392 Speaker 2: reported on for a long time. Before that, let's talk 10 00:01:04,411 --> 00:01:06,321 Speaker 2: a little bit about how this is playing out kind 11 00:01:06,422 --> 00:01:08,982 Speaker 2: of in general and has played out in some of 12 00:01:09,062 --> 00:01:13,392 Speaker 2: our reporting recently, too. Aline, you were just in North 13 00:01:13,432 --> 00:01:16,502 Speaker 2: Dakota for the Standing Rock anniversary, right? 14 00:01:17,551 --> 00:01:18,652 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. 15 00:01:18,991 --> 00:01:23,511 Speaker 4: So I went out to Standing Rock Reservation and attended 16 00:01:23,551 --> 00:01:25,091 Speaker 4: a couple different anniversary events. 17 00:01:25,131 --> 00:01:26,092 Speaker 1: There was sort of this. 18 00:01:26,012 --> 00:01:30,612 Speaker 4: Grassroots gathering on the land of this woman who was 19 00:01:30,691 --> 00:01:32,912 Speaker 4: really involved in the No DAPL movement, the movement to 20 00:01:32,952 --> 00:01:36,831 Speaker 4: stop the Dakota Access Pipeline, which, for those who don't remember, 21 00:01:36,922 --> 00:01:41,801 Speaker 4: happened in 2016 and 2017. Huge thousands of people kind 22 00:01:41,812 --> 00:01:45,762 Speaker 4: of occupied the prairie trying to stop this oil pipeline. So, 23 00:01:45,842 --> 00:01:48,642 Speaker 4: you know, people were getting together and really reflecting on 24 00:01:48,662 --> 00:01:52,252 Speaker 4: the past 10 years and just reconnecting with each other. 25 00:01:52,772 --> 00:01:56,972 Speaker 4: There was also a separate event at the tribe's casino, 26 00:01:57,832 --> 00:02:02,431 Speaker 4: which was a conference on renewable energy, really centered around 27 00:02:02,592 --> 00:02:07,402 Speaker 4: indigenous groups doing renewable energy projects. It was really interesting. 28 00:02:07,502 --> 00:02:10,591 Speaker 4: I also was chatting with people around Bismarck and Mandan, 29 00:02:10,612 --> 00:02:14,242 Speaker 4: which are these cities that are close by. They're effectively 30 00:02:14,422 --> 00:02:18,742 Speaker 4: border communities because people from the Standing Rock Reservation go 31 00:02:18,802 --> 00:02:23,432 Speaker 4: there to buy groceries, go to Walmart, you know, do 32 00:02:23,472 --> 00:02:26,172 Speaker 4: things like that. And there's this long history of racism there. 33 00:02:26,252 --> 00:02:31,412 Speaker 4: So that community was a target of anti-protest propaganda during 34 00:02:31,472 --> 00:02:34,452 Speaker 4: that uprising, something that we covered in our recent series, 35 00:02:34,572 --> 00:02:37,492 Speaker 4: The Propagandist. But so I was kind of talking to 36 00:02:37,532 --> 00:02:40,572 Speaker 4: people at all these events and learning about how, you know, 37 00:02:40,612 --> 00:02:43,912 Speaker 4: what the past 10 years has brought. I think one 38 00:02:43,932 --> 00:02:46,152 Speaker 4: of my biggest takeaways is, you know, I think we're 39 00:02:46,172 --> 00:02:49,792 Speaker 4: going to talk about Global Witnesses annual report on killings 40 00:02:50,032 --> 00:02:53,692 Speaker 4: of land defenders internationally. A lot of people at this 41 00:02:53,772 --> 00:02:59,931 Speaker 4: gathering were talking about the mental health impacts of being criminalized. 42 00:03:00,032 --> 00:03:04,402 Speaker 4: They talked about one woman who was bitten by this 43 00:03:04,502 --> 00:03:08,002 Speaker 4: private security dog in this infamous incident that happened at 44 00:03:08,022 --> 00:03:10,082 Speaker 4: the beginning of 2020. 45 00:03:10,082 --> 00:03:10,902 Speaker 3: That movement. 46 00:03:11,442 --> 00:03:14,712 Speaker 4: She talked about sort of struggling with addiction and mental 47 00:03:14,772 --> 00:03:18,762 Speaker 4: health issues for years, only pretty recently kind of got 48 00:03:18,802 --> 00:03:23,542 Speaker 4: back on her feet. Another guy who faced federal charges, 49 00:03:24,102 --> 00:03:26,602 Speaker 4: you know, said that those years when he was dealing 50 00:03:26,642 --> 00:03:29,622 Speaker 4: with that, with that really like pushed him to the brink. 51 00:03:30,122 --> 00:03:33,012 Speaker 4: You know, these are indigenous land defenders. And I think 52 00:03:33,052 --> 00:03:36,912 Speaker 4: that's an aspect of criminalization that we don't talk about 53 00:03:36,952 --> 00:03:39,952 Speaker 4: a lot and that doesn't often get tracked in these reports. 54 00:03:40,552 --> 00:03:43,802 Speaker 4: You know, Standing Rock happened at the beginning of, or 55 00:03:43,822 --> 00:03:48,192 Speaker 4: the NoDAPL movement happened at the beginning of, Trump's first term. 56 00:03:48,592 --> 00:03:50,972 Speaker 4: And I think that's really kind of the beginning of 57 00:03:51,032 --> 00:03:55,492 Speaker 4: this period of increasing or a beginning of this period 58 00:03:55,512 --> 00:04:00,792 Speaker 4: of increasing criminalization of land and environmental defenders across the U.S. 59 00:04:00,852 --> 00:04:03,912 Speaker 4: and even internationally. That's now 10 years ago. So it 60 00:04:03,992 --> 00:04:07,942 Speaker 4: kind of provides a preview into the kinds of an 61 00:04:08,182 --> 00:04:13,272 Speaker 4: aspect of this growing authoritarianism and criminalization, again, that we 62 00:04:13,292 --> 00:04:17,032 Speaker 4: don't talk about often. So what does it mean if 63 00:04:17,152 --> 00:04:21,562 Speaker 4: police violence causes serious mental health harms? How do you 64 00:04:21,592 --> 00:04:24,002 Speaker 4: account for that? So that's one thing I was thinking about. 65 00:04:24,562 --> 00:04:28,082 Speaker 4: It was also just really interesting because the people in Mandan, 66 00:04:28,102 --> 00:04:32,862 Speaker 4: North Dakota, who, again, were targeted by this anti-protest propaganda, 67 00:04:33,282 --> 00:04:38,852 Speaker 4: people have really strong views sentiments against the water protector movement, 68 00:04:38,872 --> 00:04:41,072 Speaker 4: the no dapple movement. They were really felt like their 69 00:04:41,092 --> 00:04:44,252 Speaker 4: lives were disrupted. And again, that was fueled by Facebook 70 00:04:44,272 --> 00:04:48,952 Speaker 4: content that was created by Pipeline Company and their private 71 00:04:48,972 --> 00:04:53,912 Speaker 4: security firm. So now they are facing a data center 72 00:04:54,052 --> 00:04:56,791 Speaker 4: that is being built in the middle of their town. 73 00:04:56,852 --> 00:05:00,142 Speaker 4: Like it's really like Sort of almost across the street 74 00:05:00,182 --> 00:05:02,541 Speaker 4: from their high school or very close to their brand 75 00:05:02,582 --> 00:05:08,022 Speaker 4: new high school. And they are like organizing petitions. They're 76 00:05:08,082 --> 00:05:11,892 Speaker 4: doing all this, this organizing to stop it. I was 77 00:05:11,932 --> 00:05:13,532 Speaker 4: sort of curious. I was like, oh, maybe this like 78 00:05:13,572 --> 00:05:16,752 Speaker 4: changed the way that they're thinking about these protests that 79 00:05:16,772 --> 00:05:21,791 Speaker 4: happened here years ago. My quick survey and interviews with 80 00:05:21,832 --> 00:05:24,552 Speaker 4: folks that were signing these petitions indicated that it has 81 00:05:24,612 --> 00:05:29,692 Speaker 4: not changed hearts and minds. But it's just sort of 82 00:05:29,732 --> 00:05:35,922 Speaker 4: fascinating to see that the fight for protecting land and 83 00:05:35,952 --> 00:05:40,722 Speaker 4: water ultimately touches us all. And, you know, I wonder 84 00:05:40,802 --> 00:05:43,922 Speaker 4: if there are opportunities for solidarity in that. 85 00:05:44,182 --> 00:05:44,942 Speaker 3: I guess we'll see. 86 00:05:45,462 --> 00:05:49,522 Speaker 2: Interesting. You mentioned the Global Witness report and it just 87 00:05:49,562 --> 00:05:50,302 Speaker 2: came out, right? 88 00:05:50,402 --> 00:05:51,962 Speaker 1: What does this report say? 89 00:05:51,982 --> 00:05:56,181 Speaker 5: I mean, it says that as every year, the vast 90 00:05:56,262 --> 00:06:00,492 Speaker 5: majority of documented assassinations of land and environmental defenders is 91 00:06:00,552 --> 00:06:03,291 Speaker 5: in Latin America and the Caribbean. And I think Latin 92 00:06:03,332 --> 00:06:08,112 Speaker 5: America continues to appear as the most dangerous region in 93 00:06:08,152 --> 00:06:12,041 Speaker 5: the world to defend land and environment. in partly because 94 00:06:12,262 --> 00:06:15,322 Speaker 5: communities are so organized here right so there is there 95 00:06:15,382 --> 00:06:19,772 Speaker 5: are resistance movements um that date back centuries right and 96 00:06:19,872 --> 00:06:23,171 Speaker 5: certainly were like cemented and sort of um deepened during 97 00:06:23,432 --> 00:06:25,592 Speaker 5: the cold war period during all the dirty wars that 98 00:06:25,612 --> 00:06:28,312 Speaker 5: happened so i think that's part of it also this 99 00:06:28,372 --> 00:06:32,272 Speaker 5: is a very um resource rich um continent you know 100 00:06:32,392 --> 00:06:36,892 Speaker 5: and so it's sort of land disputes, over mining, over 101 00:06:37,352 --> 00:06:42,232 Speaker 5: coastal areas and deforestation, but fossil fuel projects, you know, historically. 102 00:06:42,302 --> 00:06:44,382 Speaker 5: But I think what we're increasingly starting to see and 103 00:06:44,502 --> 00:06:47,262 Speaker 5: isn't quite coming through yet in like the hard data 104 00:06:47,282 --> 00:06:52,842 Speaker 5: is the repression and violence against communities who are who 105 00:06:53,022 --> 00:06:57,342 Speaker 5: are struggling and resisting renewable energy projects and data centres. 106 00:06:57,682 --> 00:07:04,512 Speaker 5: Three quarters of the documented murders were of indigenous people, campesinos, 107 00:07:04,652 --> 00:07:10,012 Speaker 5: peasant farmers and Afro-descendant community leaders. So that's like stark, 108 00:07:10,032 --> 00:07:12,512 Speaker 5: you know, really stark. But, you know, I do think 109 00:07:12,552 --> 00:07:15,232 Speaker 5: we should just point out that this is, you know, 110 00:07:15,252 --> 00:07:17,352 Speaker 5: there's a real dearth of data everywhere. 111 00:07:17,952 --> 00:07:19,852 Speaker 3: Across many regions in the world. 112 00:07:19,992 --> 00:07:22,172 Speaker 5: Like, Global Witness would be the first to say that 113 00:07:22,332 --> 00:07:24,192 Speaker 5: the assassinations are sort of like. 114 00:07:24,152 --> 00:07:27,312 Speaker 3: The very tip of the iceberg. 115 00:07:27,392 --> 00:07:33,662 Speaker 5: Below that, you have, you know, the criminalization across Latin America. Thousands, 116 00:07:33,702 --> 00:07:37,102 Speaker 5: you know, of people who are in prison or have 117 00:07:37,122 --> 00:07:41,012 Speaker 5: been arrested and charged with usurpación. which, you know, basically 118 00:07:41,052 --> 00:07:45,692 Speaker 5: means aggravated trespass. So people who are being convicted criminally 119 00:07:46,552 --> 00:07:49,592 Speaker 5: for being on their own land, but also a whole 120 00:07:49,612 --> 00:07:53,252 Speaker 5: array of charges, terrorism, other national security stuff, you know. 121 00:07:53,652 --> 00:07:55,742 Speaker 5: And then below that, you've got, like you're saying, the 122 00:07:55,882 --> 00:07:59,942 Speaker 5: huge mental health impacts. So we really count on sort 123 00:07:59,962 --> 00:08:03,402 Speaker 5: of these hard numbers, which, again, are not, you know, 124 00:08:04,202 --> 00:08:07,582 Speaker 5: an underestimate themselves. But that's the sort of, you know, unfortunately, 125 00:08:07,602 --> 00:08:10,412 Speaker 5: you know, assassinations are the easiest thing to track. 126 00:08:11,032 --> 00:08:11,212 Speaker 1: Yeah. 127 00:08:11,252 --> 00:08:14,532 Speaker 4: And I think, you know, like you noted, they counted, 128 00:08:14,552 --> 00:08:18,032 Speaker 4: I think, three killings in the past year in the 129 00:08:18,072 --> 00:08:22,512 Speaker 4: entire continent of Africa out of 124 that they tracked. 130 00:08:22,632 --> 00:08:25,362 Speaker 4: You know, I just seriously doubt that that's it in 131 00:08:25,402 --> 00:08:28,622 Speaker 4: the entire continent, you know. And in terms of Palestine, 132 00:08:28,642 --> 00:08:32,822 Speaker 4: they did address their lack of tracking of killings of 133 00:08:33,141 --> 00:08:36,742 Speaker 4: Palestinian land defenders because, you know, there's a strong argument 134 00:08:36,842 --> 00:08:42,671 Speaker 4: to be made that most Palestinians fighting for their land are, 135 00:08:42,852 --> 00:08:46,492 Speaker 4: you know, land defenders and environmental defenders as much as 136 00:08:46,631 --> 00:08:49,271 Speaker 4: many of the people that are being tracked, you know, 137 00:08:49,332 --> 00:08:53,802 Speaker 4: by this organization in Latin America. So in 2024, Global 138 00:08:53,822 --> 00:08:57,281 Speaker 4: Witness did address this. They said, the resulting violence and 139 00:08:57,322 --> 00:09:00,442 Speaker 4: mass displacement caused by breakdowns in the rule of law 140 00:09:00,502 --> 00:09:03,802 Speaker 4: and the fracturing of civic spaces makes recording violations against 141 00:09:03,822 --> 00:09:07,891 Speaker 4: land and environmental defenders a challenge. Basically, the idea is 142 00:09:07,952 --> 00:09:11,272 Speaker 4: that in these conflict zones, it's just kind of too 143 00:09:11,332 --> 00:09:15,452 Speaker 4: hard to track. But, you know, for the record, at 144 00:09:15,592 --> 00:09:21,352 Speaker 4: least 74000 people have been killed. Palestinians, at least at 145 00:09:21,651 --> 00:09:26,831 Speaker 4: least in Gaza since October 7th, 2023, you know, in 146 00:09:26,952 --> 00:09:32,711 Speaker 4: this U.S. funded Israeli genocide. So something to just have 147 00:09:32,732 --> 00:09:33,032 Speaker 4: in mind. 148 00:09:33,592 --> 00:09:34,492 Speaker 3: I would agree with you. 149 00:09:34,572 --> 00:09:38,752 Speaker 5: I think every single Palestinian is a land rights defender, right? 150 00:09:38,791 --> 00:09:40,711 Speaker 3: Because that's ultimately what this is about. 151 00:09:40,811 --> 00:09:43,292 Speaker 5: And, you know, I wrote a chapter for a book 152 00:09:43,391 --> 00:09:46,362 Speaker 5: on the genocide called Ecocide in Gaza. And I interviewed 153 00:09:46,401 --> 00:09:49,442 Speaker 5: a Bedouin farmer for that book. And I remember he 154 00:09:49,482 --> 00:09:52,261 Speaker 5: said to me, you know, I will never leave my 155 00:09:52,301 --> 00:09:54,581 Speaker 5: land because I love my land like I love my children. 156 00:09:55,122 --> 00:09:59,212 Speaker 5: You know, and it's that, you know, the Palestinians are 157 00:09:59,252 --> 00:10:01,952 Speaker 5: their land, right? That is who they are. And that's 158 00:10:01,992 --> 00:10:07,272 Speaker 5: why Israel has absolutely obliterated Gaza, right? Because they know that, 159 00:10:07,881 --> 00:10:10,801 Speaker 5: you know, that land without Palestinians isn't Palestine. 160 00:10:11,002 --> 00:10:14,381 Speaker 3: You know. And so, yeah, there's it's they are. And so, yeah, 161 00:10:14,401 --> 00:10:15,102 Speaker 3: I would agree with you. 162 00:10:15,161 --> 00:10:19,322 Speaker 5: I think it's like a huge gaping hole, Africa as well, 163 00:10:19,442 --> 00:10:21,141 Speaker 5: you know. And so we have to sort of just 164 00:10:21,521 --> 00:10:24,682 Speaker 5: bear all of that in mind. But still, 124, you know, 165 00:10:25,982 --> 00:10:29,042 Speaker 5: land and environmental defenders we know were assassinated last year. 166 00:10:29,541 --> 00:10:31,261 Speaker 3: For defending their basic rights. 167 00:10:31,881 --> 00:10:32,102 Speaker 2: Yeah. 168 00:10:32,442 --> 00:10:32,722 Speaker 1: Yeah. 169 00:10:33,362 --> 00:10:36,281 Speaker 2: So, Nina, tell us a little bit about what's been 170 00:10:36,301 --> 00:10:40,941 Speaker 2: going on in Honduras recently. I know Trump has pardoned 171 00:10:40,962 --> 00:10:45,242 Speaker 2: the former president. That's kicked off a whole bunch of issues. 172 00:10:45,301 --> 00:10:48,872 Speaker 2: What's happening in Honduras right now? And who are the Garifuna? 173 00:10:49,122 --> 00:10:50,381 Speaker 2: What's going on with them? 174 00:10:51,161 --> 00:10:55,022 Speaker 5: So the Garifuna are the Afro-Indigenous people. They are rooted 175 00:10:55,202 --> 00:10:56,162 Speaker 5: in the island of St. 176 00:10:56,222 --> 00:10:56,802 Speaker 3: Vincent. 177 00:10:57,181 --> 00:11:01,602 Speaker 5: They are survivors of West Africa slave ships who then 178 00:11:01,722 --> 00:11:04,922 Speaker 5: mixed with the Indigenous people of St. Vincent and then 179 00:11:04,982 --> 00:11:08,842 Speaker 5: have settled on the islands and mainland of Central America 180 00:11:08,881 --> 00:11:12,502 Speaker 5: more than 200 years ago. They have deep ancestral ties 181 00:11:12,541 --> 00:11:16,401 Speaker 5: which have been recognised and confirmed by all sorts of 182 00:11:16,442 --> 00:11:20,082 Speaker 5: international bodies, UNESCO, the International Court of Human Rights. So 183 00:11:20,122 --> 00:11:24,931 Speaker 5: the Garifuna specifically and the Lenka people, which Bertha Caceres, 184 00:11:24,972 --> 00:11:29,332 Speaker 5: who was an indigenous defender and an incredible political analyst 185 00:11:29,352 --> 00:11:33,671 Speaker 5: who was murdered 10 years ago in 2016. March 2016, 186 00:11:33,671 --> 00:11:38,252 Speaker 5: they were two of the sort of communities that really 187 00:11:38,511 --> 00:11:43,222 Speaker 5: led a lot of the resistance after the 2009 coup 188 00:11:43,281 --> 00:11:44,002 Speaker 5: in Honduras. 189 00:11:44,041 --> 00:11:44,321 Speaker 1: Right. 190 00:11:44,362 --> 00:11:48,401 Speaker 5: And so in summer of 2009, a man called Mel Zelaya. 191 00:11:48,462 --> 00:11:50,732 Speaker 3: Who was a sort of reformist, who was. 192 00:11:50,732 --> 00:11:53,832 Speaker 5: Absolutely hated by the right wing elites of Honduras, the 193 00:11:53,891 --> 00:11:57,891 Speaker 5: neocons of the U.S., Hillary Clinton in particular, because he 194 00:11:58,131 --> 00:12:01,622 Speaker 5: was buying oil of Hugo Chavez. And he was ousted 195 00:12:01,671 --> 00:12:04,302 Speaker 5: in this sort of in a coup that was orchestrated 196 00:12:04,362 --> 00:12:08,082 Speaker 5: by this sort of right wing elite of religious, military, economic, 197 00:12:08,122 --> 00:12:13,541 Speaker 5: political leaders. And that ushered in this very right wing 198 00:12:14,421 --> 00:12:20,062 Speaker 5: pro-business political party called the National Party. And very, very quickly, 199 00:12:20,602 --> 00:12:23,761 Speaker 5: I'm talking in a year or two, Honduras became one 200 00:12:23,801 --> 00:12:27,041 Speaker 5: of the most dangerous places on the planet outside an 201 00:12:27,102 --> 00:12:30,362 Speaker 5: official war zone. It became the most dangerous place for 202 00:12:30,381 --> 00:12:34,041 Speaker 5: land and environmental defenders per capita. And it also, and 203 00:12:34,212 --> 00:12:37,791 Speaker 5: this isn't a coincidence, became the place where 80% of 204 00:12:37,832 --> 00:12:41,712 Speaker 5: the cocaine en route to the US was transiting through, right? 205 00:12:42,171 --> 00:12:44,532 Speaker 5: So this is all happening in the same time. The 206 00:12:44,572 --> 00:12:48,112 Speaker 5: National Party came in and did literally declared Honduras open 207 00:12:48,131 --> 00:12:52,881 Speaker 5: for business. And they started selling off their coastlines, their minerals, 208 00:12:53,002 --> 00:12:59,582 Speaker 5: their forests, rivers for dams to the highest bidder, international bidders, right, 209 00:12:59,602 --> 00:13:04,131 Speaker 5: who would generally work with their local wealthy partners, aided 210 00:13:04,171 --> 00:13:07,151 Speaker 5: by the military, aided by sort of international banking, etc., 211 00:13:08,192 --> 00:13:10,791 Speaker 5: So I first went to Honduras and first met Berta 212 00:13:10,811 --> 00:13:16,132 Speaker 5: Cáceres and the Garifuna leaders like Miriam Miranda on election 213 00:13:16,151 --> 00:13:19,752 Speaker 5: day in 2013. And I remember really clearly, you know, 214 00:13:19,771 --> 00:13:24,051 Speaker 5: Berta was there warning international observers about, you know, the 215 00:13:24,072 --> 00:13:27,391 Speaker 5: sort of targeted assassinations that were happening at the time. 216 00:13:28,031 --> 00:13:29,891 Speaker 3: And that was the election that. 217 00:13:29,891 --> 00:13:36,572 Speaker 5: A guy called Juan Orlando Hernandez, this sort of super Zionist, evangelical, 218 00:13:36,671 --> 00:13:39,822 Speaker 5: authoritarian leader who'd been actually the head of Congress, was 219 00:13:39,881 --> 00:13:40,722 Speaker 5: elected as president. 220 00:13:42,352 --> 00:13:44,252 Speaker 3: And he stayed in power for eight years. 221 00:13:44,482 --> 00:13:44,761 Speaker 1: Right. 222 00:13:45,082 --> 00:13:48,641 Speaker 5: And during that time, Berta was assassinated. I mean, you know, 223 00:13:48,661 --> 00:13:52,582 Speaker 5: I mean, the criminalization and the violence against the whole, 224 00:13:53,061 --> 00:13:56,171 Speaker 5: all of civil society was really just horrific, but really 225 00:13:56,212 --> 00:14:00,071 Speaker 5: targeted against, you know, anyone resisting this sort of this 226 00:14:00,092 --> 00:14:06,192 Speaker 5: sort of extractive neoliberal project. And in that period, hundreds 227 00:14:06,232 --> 00:14:09,712 Speaker 5: of thousands of Hondurans left and tried to reach the 228 00:14:09,811 --> 00:14:13,631 Speaker 5: US because of the insecurity, because, you know, of the corruption, 229 00:14:13,702 --> 00:14:15,222 Speaker 5: because of the violence that was happening. 230 00:14:15,242 --> 00:14:19,922 Speaker 3: So he stays in power for eight years. He leaves power. 231 00:14:20,242 --> 00:14:23,842 Speaker 5: And very soon after that, he is indicted by the 232 00:14:23,902 --> 00:14:26,862 Speaker 5: Southern District of New York on. 233 00:14:26,922 --> 00:14:29,201 Speaker 3: Arms trafficking and drug trafficking charges. 234 00:14:29,222 --> 00:14:32,532 Speaker 5: And By this time, his brother, Tony Hernandez, who was 235 00:14:32,572 --> 00:14:36,002 Speaker 5: a member of Congress, had also been indicted and I 236 00:14:36,032 --> 00:14:38,841 Speaker 5: think had already been convicted. And so then, so he's 237 00:14:38,902 --> 00:14:42,002 Speaker 5: tried in New York, Juan Orlando Hernandez, and he receives, 238 00:14:42,282 --> 00:14:47,072 Speaker 5: he's found guilty and receives a 45-year sentence for trafficking. 239 00:14:47,492 --> 00:14:51,451 Speaker 5: like shitloads of cocaine into the US, right? 240 00:14:51,852 --> 00:14:52,752 Speaker 3: So he's in prison. 241 00:14:53,742 --> 00:14:57,441 Speaker 5: Fast forward a year or so, in comes our dear leader, Trump, 242 00:14:57,542 --> 00:14:59,882 Speaker 5: or your dear leader, Trump. And at the end of 243 00:14:59,942 --> 00:15:05,492 Speaker 5: last year, just weeks before, The U.S. launches this illegal 244 00:15:05,552 --> 00:15:10,412 Speaker 5: operation to abduct Nicolas Maduro from Venezuela, justified by the 245 00:15:10,431 --> 00:15:13,292 Speaker 5: fact they said he was a drug trafficker. Trump commutes 246 00:15:13,752 --> 00:15:18,982 Speaker 5: Juan Orlando Hernandez's sentence, a 45-year sentence for bringing huge 247 00:15:19,042 --> 00:15:21,662 Speaker 5: amounts of drugs into the U.S., commutes his sentence and 248 00:15:21,922 --> 00:15:25,561 Speaker 5: he pops off back to Honduras, right? At the same time, 249 00:15:25,722 --> 00:15:28,542 Speaker 5: Trump interferes in the general election at the end of 250 00:15:28,602 --> 00:15:32,422 Speaker 5: last year. And he backs a National Party candidate, this 251 00:15:32,522 --> 00:15:35,972 Speaker 5: guy who's a construction magnate, who was a member of 252 00:15:36,022 --> 00:15:38,262 Speaker 5: Congress as well. And while he was a member of Congress, 253 00:15:38,372 --> 00:15:41,352 Speaker 5: his name appeared in the Panama Papers. If we remember those, 254 00:15:41,392 --> 00:15:44,072 Speaker 5: that was this massive trough of sort of leaked papers 255 00:15:44,512 --> 00:15:48,012 Speaker 5: about high level officials who were linked to sort of 256 00:15:48,072 --> 00:15:51,372 Speaker 5: shady bank accounts in different countries. So, you know, we 257 00:15:51,392 --> 00:15:54,722 Speaker 5: get to January and Juan Orlando is back. And by 258 00:15:54,842 --> 00:15:58,022 Speaker 5: all accounts, back to controlling what's happening in the country. 259 00:15:58,302 --> 00:16:01,902 Speaker 5: The National Party are back in power, including a whole 260 00:16:01,962 --> 00:16:06,692 Speaker 5: bunch of people who have alleged ties to organized crime. 261 00:16:07,052 --> 00:16:10,312 Speaker 5: And then what we see in March is the Inter-American 262 00:16:10,352 --> 00:16:16,462 Speaker 5: Court of Human Rights. Issues its fourth favorable sentence for 263 00:16:16,482 --> 00:16:19,852 Speaker 5: the Garifuna community. And this time it relates to this 264 00:16:19,992 --> 00:16:24,012 Speaker 5: archipelago called the Cayo Cochinos, which is like maybe 40, 265 00:16:24,012 --> 00:16:28,022 Speaker 5: 50 miles out into the Caribbean. which the government had 266 00:16:28,202 --> 00:16:32,102 Speaker 5: several years before basically said they were converting it into 267 00:16:32,402 --> 00:16:38,382 Speaker 5: a national park and started leasing this land out to 268 00:16:39,442 --> 00:16:42,622 Speaker 5: the reality show Survivor, the Spanish version of the reality 269 00:16:43,442 --> 00:16:47,272 Speaker 5: show Survivor. And so the Inter-American Court said, absolutely not. 270 00:16:47,332 --> 00:16:50,931 Speaker 5: This ancestral land is, you know, the Garifuna's. The communities 271 00:16:50,972 --> 00:16:53,331 Speaker 5: that live there, they have fishing rights. There's also a 272 00:16:53,372 --> 00:16:56,431 Speaker 5: whole load of like the endangered species, including turtles that 273 00:16:56,492 --> 00:17:00,672 Speaker 5: breed out there. And that any use of that, the 274 00:17:00,772 --> 00:17:04,911 Speaker 5: archipelago has to be done in conjunction with the Garifuna people. 275 00:17:04,932 --> 00:17:05,522 Speaker 2: Right. 276 00:17:05,582 --> 00:17:07,382 Speaker 3: So that's March of this year. 277 00:17:07,962 --> 00:17:10,282 Speaker 5: And what we saw happen two or three months ago 278 00:17:10,302 --> 00:17:15,142 Speaker 5: is that five Garifuna leaders were arrested and they were 279 00:17:15,242 --> 00:17:20,272 Speaker 5: charged with these trumped-up charges of usurpación, so criminal trespass. 280 00:17:20,992 --> 00:17:25,881 Speaker 5: And so the Garifunas decide... That's it. They have tried everything. 281 00:17:25,902 --> 00:17:29,721 Speaker 5: They've done everything legally. They've gone to the courts and 282 00:17:29,922 --> 00:17:33,101 Speaker 5: no one is complying with the sentences. So they set 283 00:17:33,222 --> 00:17:36,352 Speaker 5: up this massive encampment in front of the Supreme Court 284 00:17:36,371 --> 00:17:39,071 Speaker 5: of Justice in Tegucigalpa in the capital. 285 00:17:39,091 --> 00:17:42,612 Speaker 3: And they've been there for two months now. 286 00:17:42,932 --> 00:17:46,191 Speaker 5: They also have two other encampments, one where Survivor is 287 00:17:46,252 --> 00:17:49,091 Speaker 5: filming just in that area there and another where the 288 00:17:49,132 --> 00:17:52,492 Speaker 5: five leaders were arrested and charged a couple of months ago. 289 00:17:53,032 --> 00:17:54,132 Speaker 3: So that's where we're at now. 290 00:17:54,302 --> 00:17:55,982 Speaker 5: And that's sort of what I wanted to talk to 291 00:17:56,022 --> 00:18:00,382 Speaker 5: Karen Spring, who is the coordinator of the Honduras Solidarity Network, 292 00:18:00,442 --> 00:18:04,282 Speaker 5: who's been, you know, involved and working and living in 293 00:18:04,341 --> 00:18:06,482 Speaker 5: Honduras for many, many years now. 294 00:18:06,962 --> 00:18:09,601 Speaker 3: So, yeah, so that's why we invited her on today. Awesome. 295 00:18:09,722 --> 00:18:09,982 Speaker 3: All right. 296 00:18:10,042 --> 00:18:11,831 Speaker 2: Just before we get to Karen, we do have a 297 00:18:11,922 --> 00:18:16,232 Speaker 2: little bit of video showing the Garifuna coming up against 298 00:18:16,392 --> 00:18:19,972 Speaker 2: the Survivor reality TV crew, which is. 299 00:18:20,662 --> 00:18:21,341 Speaker 3: It's unbelievable. 300 00:18:21,382 --> 00:18:21,922 Speaker 2: Tell us what's. 301 00:18:21,802 --> 00:18:22,542 Speaker 3: Going on here. 302 00:18:41,722 --> 00:18:43,692 Speaker 5: So this is a Spanish version of the reality show, which, 303 00:18:43,732 --> 00:18:46,752 Speaker 5: by the way, is absolutely massive in Latin America, right? 304 00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:48,672 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, you know, the number one reality show. 305 00:18:49,292 --> 00:18:55,052 Speaker 5: So in spite of this international court sentence, the crew 306 00:18:55,091 --> 00:18:58,172 Speaker 5: just turn up, as usual, as they have been doing 307 00:18:58,212 --> 00:18:59,532 Speaker 5: for like several. 308 00:18:59,172 --> 00:19:02,362 Speaker 3: Years now, and just start filming this show. And it's just, 309 00:19:02,472 --> 00:19:03,802 Speaker 3: I mean, it just shows. 310 00:19:03,502 --> 00:19:07,802 Speaker 5: Utter, like, lack of rule of law and just the 311 00:19:07,922 --> 00:19:11,982 Speaker 5: guaranteed impunity punity that there is right for anyone that 312 00:19:12,042 --> 00:19:14,662 Speaker 5: has money and power in this country so what we're 313 00:19:14,682 --> 00:19:19,002 Speaker 5: looking at is now some local leaders filming the survivor 314 00:19:19,061 --> 00:19:23,722 Speaker 5: crew filming and saying we're just asking you to comply 315 00:19:23,831 --> 00:19:26,872 Speaker 5: with international law right you have no right to be 316 00:19:26,932 --> 00:19:29,512 Speaker 5: here this is what the court has said and like 317 00:19:29,571 --> 00:19:31,572 Speaker 5: we are just asking for you know you to just 318 00:19:31,591 --> 00:19:33,752 Speaker 5: comply with the law to to follow the law. 319 00:19:34,212 --> 00:19:38,472 Speaker 2: And it's really something, just a plug for watching this 320 00:19:38,792 --> 00:19:41,492 Speaker 2: on YouTube so that you can see this video because 321 00:19:41,522 --> 00:19:47,381 Speaker 2: the survivor crew is like filming the community leaders as 322 00:19:47,442 --> 00:19:50,862 Speaker 2: they're saying this stuff. And there's just like no reaction. 323 00:19:50,882 --> 00:19:52,602 Speaker 2: They're just like, uh-huh. 324 00:19:52,782 --> 00:19:53,182 Speaker 1: Okay. 325 00:19:53,202 --> 00:20:00,622 Speaker 2: It's really, it's really galling. um anyway yeah okay let's 326 00:20:00,642 --> 00:20:03,922 Speaker 2: hear your conversation with karen after this quick break. 327 00:20:04,061 --> 00:20:23,752 Speaker 5: You Karen Spring, welcome to The Spill, co-coordinator of the 328 00:20:23,792 --> 00:20:27,142 Speaker 5: Honduras Solidarity Network. And you got in touch a couple 329 00:20:27,162 --> 00:20:31,802 Speaker 5: of weeks ago about the awful situation facing the Afro-Indigenous 330 00:20:31,821 --> 00:20:33,462 Speaker 5: Garifuna people in Honduras. 331 00:20:33,802 --> 00:20:36,142 Speaker 3: Can you start off by just setting the scene for us? 332 00:20:36,821 --> 00:20:39,482 Speaker 5: What's been happening in Honduras since the National Party came 333 00:20:39,522 --> 00:20:43,321 Speaker 5: back to power in January and since the convicted drug 334 00:20:43,361 --> 00:20:47,282 Speaker 5: trafficking ex-president, Juan Orlando Hernandez, was released by Trump? 335 00:20:48,101 --> 00:20:52,222 Speaker 1: Okay, well, thank you so much, Nina, for inviting me. Basically, 336 00:20:52,282 --> 00:20:56,441 Speaker 1: since the beginning of this year, late January, the new 337 00:20:56,601 --> 00:21:01,982 Speaker 1: government of Honduras, led by Nasri Tito Asfura, has taken 338 00:21:02,061 --> 00:21:05,062 Speaker 1: power in Honduras. And what we've seen and what we're 339 00:21:05,121 --> 00:21:10,581 Speaker 1: seeing is basically a return to what Honduras was like 340 00:21:11,422 --> 00:21:15,671 Speaker 1: prior to COVID. the extradition of the former President Juan 341 00:21:15,752 --> 00:21:19,732 Speaker 1: Orlando Hernández. And so what do I mean by that? Basically, 342 00:21:19,792 --> 00:21:24,692 Speaker 1: Honduras is returning to what many called for 12 years 343 00:21:24,712 --> 00:21:29,422 Speaker 1: a narco state. And certain elements of that narco state 344 00:21:29,561 --> 00:21:32,851 Speaker 1: are sort of coming to surface again. They're being resurrected. 345 00:21:33,532 --> 00:21:35,592 Speaker 1: And what I mean by this as well is that 346 00:21:35,632 --> 00:21:40,672 Speaker 1: the same model, the same economic model that targeted land defenders, 347 00:21:40,811 --> 00:21:46,052 Speaker 1: human rights defenders, lawyers that spoke out against mega projects, 348 00:21:46,212 --> 00:21:50,571 Speaker 1: mega extractive projects around the country are once again being 349 00:21:50,652 --> 00:21:56,362 Speaker 1: targeted by a whole series of actions, including laws including 350 00:21:56,452 --> 00:22:01,901 Speaker 1: policies and the remilitarization of Honduran society. And so within 351 00:22:01,942 --> 00:22:06,542 Speaker 1: this context, there is lots of social organizing happening and 352 00:22:06,581 --> 00:22:10,571 Speaker 1: mobilization to sort of resist and to stop this once again, 353 00:22:10,632 --> 00:22:14,091 Speaker 1: the resurrection of this model that's being led by a 354 00:22:14,432 --> 00:22:20,892 Speaker 1: state that has a long history of targeting opponents and 355 00:22:21,212 --> 00:22:24,182 Speaker 1: of criminalizing land and human rights defenders. 356 00:22:26,012 --> 00:22:30,971 Speaker 5: Okay, so in early August, the Black Fraternal Organization of Honduras, 357 00:22:31,012 --> 00:22:34,172 Speaker 5: which is OFRANE, I mean, it's a Spanish acronym, and 358 00:22:34,192 --> 00:22:38,052 Speaker 5: it's the main organization for the Garifuna people, set up 359 00:22:38,091 --> 00:22:40,411 Speaker 5: a protest camp in front of the Supreme Court in 360 00:22:40,432 --> 00:22:43,462 Speaker 5: the capital, Tegucigalpa, which they've called for the life of 361 00:22:43,502 --> 00:22:47,782 Speaker 5: the Garifuna people. So Tegucigalpa is a long way from 362 00:22:47,821 --> 00:22:50,881 Speaker 5: Garifuna territory on the Caribbean coast. Can you tell us 363 00:22:51,002 --> 00:22:54,061 Speaker 5: why they have set up this encampment now and what 364 00:22:54,121 --> 00:22:55,022 Speaker 5: are their demands? 365 00:22:56,392 --> 00:23:02,492 Speaker 1: So this encampment is a really important element of actions 366 00:23:02,552 --> 00:23:07,732 Speaker 1: that OFRENE, the Afro-Indigenous Organization, is taking to demand that 367 00:23:07,851 --> 00:23:13,272 Speaker 1: the state of Honduras fulfill its international obligations. For years, 368 00:23:13,492 --> 00:23:17,212 Speaker 1: OFRENE has been fighting to have their ancestral land rights 369 00:23:17,392 --> 00:23:20,802 Speaker 1: all across the Caribbean coast respected by the state of Honduras. 370 00:23:21,282 --> 00:23:25,561 Speaker 1: They filed so many different legal motions and actions in Honduras. 371 00:23:26,071 --> 00:23:30,181 Speaker 1: They've taken the struggle internationally to international courts like the 372 00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:33,802 Speaker 1: Inter-American Court of Human Rights. To date, they have received 373 00:23:33,922 --> 00:23:37,202 Speaker 1: four sentences by that court that demand that the state 374 00:23:37,222 --> 00:23:42,652 Speaker 1: of Honduras respect the Inter-American Court sentences and their ancestral 375 00:23:42,692 --> 00:23:47,492 Speaker 1: land rights. And they've simply been ignored. And so recently, 376 00:23:48,242 --> 00:23:52,121 Speaker 1: at the beginning of July, there was attack against another 377 00:23:52,182 --> 00:23:57,861 Speaker 1: Garifuna community in the beautiful area called Telabey, specifically in 378 00:23:57,902 --> 00:24:01,502 Speaker 1: the community of San Juan. And the state went in, 379 00:24:01,882 --> 00:24:06,462 Speaker 1: hundreds of police officers to try to evict the Garifuna 380 00:24:06,942 --> 00:24:09,741 Speaker 1: from this land that they were recovering, as in they 381 00:24:09,782 --> 00:24:13,442 Speaker 1: decided that they were no longer going to tolerate the 382 00:24:13,902 --> 00:24:18,022 Speaker 1: that a wealthy businessman was taking this piece of land 383 00:24:18,121 --> 00:24:20,052 Speaker 1: right in front of the beach and they were going 384 00:24:20,071 --> 00:24:23,452 Speaker 1: to go and recover it because it's their ancestral title. 385 00:24:23,912 --> 00:24:27,651 Speaker 1: The Inter-American Court recognizes their right to that land. And 386 00:24:27,712 --> 00:24:30,722 Speaker 1: so they've decided to go in and recover it. In response, 387 00:24:30,782 --> 00:24:33,821 Speaker 1: the state sent hundreds of police to evict them and 388 00:24:33,841 --> 00:24:37,542 Speaker 1: they criminalized these five Garifuna leaders from the same community. 389 00:24:38,202 --> 00:24:42,302 Speaker 1: So this is sort of the direct, the encampment is 390 00:24:42,321 --> 00:24:45,141 Speaker 1: the direct response to that action, but it's part of 391 00:24:45,202 --> 00:24:48,621 Speaker 1: a long standing pattern over decades of the lack of 392 00:24:48,682 --> 00:24:51,891 Speaker 1: respect for ancestral land rights and the targeting of Garifuna 393 00:24:51,932 --> 00:24:55,692 Speaker 1: leaders that are just simply trying to protect their cultural 394 00:24:55,732 --> 00:24:59,481 Speaker 1: integrity and their survival along the coast of Honduras. So 395 00:24:59,502 --> 00:25:04,002 Speaker 1: the encampment, what they did, Ofrene brought several hundreds of 396 00:25:04,081 --> 00:25:08,742 Speaker 1: people from Garifuna communities to set up camp, basically, in 397 00:25:08,861 --> 00:25:11,802 Speaker 1: front of the Supreme Court in Tegucigalpa in this small 398 00:25:11,861 --> 00:25:15,421 Speaker 1: green space. They are now camped out there. There's tents 399 00:25:15,621 --> 00:25:19,782 Speaker 1: all over the area. They're cooking, collectively cooking for everybody 400 00:25:19,831 --> 00:25:23,652 Speaker 1: that's there. They're living there. as in they don't leave 401 00:25:23,692 --> 00:25:28,302 Speaker 1: that area. They're emitting communiques in response to what's going on, 402 00:25:28,382 --> 00:25:30,982 Speaker 1: how they're being targeted, how the state continues to ignore 403 00:25:31,042 --> 00:25:34,182 Speaker 1: them or is not fulfilling their demands. And so that 404 00:25:34,242 --> 00:25:36,942 Speaker 1: is the purpose of this encampment. And it's sort of 405 00:25:37,002 --> 00:25:40,402 Speaker 1: seen as an escalation by Ofrene to say, listen, we've 406 00:25:40,422 --> 00:25:44,821 Speaker 1: done everything. We've followed the national laws. We've followed international laws. 407 00:25:44,882 --> 00:25:47,002 Speaker 1: We have no other choice now. We are going to 408 00:25:47,101 --> 00:25:49,762 Speaker 1: stay and live here in front of the Supreme Court 409 00:25:49,841 --> 00:25:51,522 Speaker 1: until we're heard by the state of Honduras. 410 00:25:52,552 --> 00:25:54,752 Speaker 5: Can we talk a little bit about this case, which 411 00:25:54,772 --> 00:25:57,211 Speaker 5: has sort of triggered, I guess, the encampment? Tell me 412 00:25:57,232 --> 00:25:59,811 Speaker 5: a little bit about the family or the businessmen involved 413 00:25:59,851 --> 00:26:04,432 Speaker 5: and also the charges against the five Garifuna leaders. They've 414 00:26:04,452 --> 00:26:07,512 Speaker 5: been charged with usurpación, which I think the best English 415 00:26:07,552 --> 00:26:11,452 Speaker 5: translation I've come up with is aggravated trespass. So people 416 00:26:11,512 --> 00:26:15,492 Speaker 5: being accused of trespassing on their own land, which is 417 00:26:15,512 --> 00:26:17,861 Speaker 5: happening all over Honduras. So just tell us a bit 418 00:26:17,882 --> 00:26:20,661 Speaker 5: more about this businessman and his family. 419 00:26:21,662 --> 00:26:21,842 Speaker 2: Sure. 420 00:26:21,861 --> 00:26:24,472 Speaker 1: So this plot of land that is part of this 421 00:26:24,591 --> 00:26:29,202 Speaker 1: conflict is right on the beautiful Caribbean beach. I mean, 422 00:26:29,321 --> 00:26:33,211 Speaker 1: it's an absolutely gorgeous piece of land. It's part of 423 00:26:33,382 --> 00:26:39,282 Speaker 1: their ancestral title. And so this businessman, like businessmen from 424 00:26:39,321 --> 00:26:44,512 Speaker 1: the U.S., from Canada, from Europe, Mexico, they are just 425 00:26:44,851 --> 00:26:47,992 Speaker 1: so taken back by the beauty of Honduran's Caribbean coast 426 00:26:48,091 --> 00:26:52,542 Speaker 1: that this wealthy family that is part of the wealthy oligarchs, 427 00:26:52,652 --> 00:26:55,642 Speaker 1: as Hondurans call them, or the wealthy elite in Honduras, 428 00:26:56,121 --> 00:27:00,502 Speaker 1: named the Rosenthal family have a tourist company called Promotour. 429 00:27:01,111 --> 00:27:06,512 Speaker 1: And this family is basically claiming that they own this 430 00:27:06,552 --> 00:27:09,772 Speaker 1: piece of land on very false premises that many years 431 00:27:09,831 --> 00:27:13,832 Speaker 1: ago they purchased the land from someone that was renting 432 00:27:13,892 --> 00:27:17,371 Speaker 1: the land. And so there's very clear manipulation of the 433 00:27:17,432 --> 00:27:23,061 Speaker 1: law going on here where they're basically ignoring land titles 434 00:27:23,742 --> 00:27:26,662 Speaker 1: to the convenience of this wealthy businessman or this wealthy 435 00:27:26,702 --> 00:27:29,882 Speaker 1: business family, the Rosenthal family. And I think what's interesting 436 00:27:29,962 --> 00:27:33,272 Speaker 1: about the Rosenthal family is that like the former President 437 00:27:33,311 --> 00:27:36,532 Speaker 1: Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was involved in drug trafficking, the 438 00:27:36,552 --> 00:27:39,792 Speaker 1: Rosenthal family as well was involved in drug trafficking. And 439 00:27:39,831 --> 00:27:43,282 Speaker 1: in fact, three members of their family faced very serious 440 00:27:43,462 --> 00:27:46,982 Speaker 1: accusations and charges by the New York Southern District Court 441 00:27:47,002 --> 00:27:52,182 Speaker 1: of New York on drug-related charges, mostly money laundering charges, 442 00:27:52,722 --> 00:27:57,292 Speaker 1: as in that they owned one of the largest banks 443 00:27:57,351 --> 00:28:02,052 Speaker 1: in Honduras, Grupo Continental or Continental Bank. And they were 444 00:28:02,192 --> 00:28:06,352 Speaker 1: using that bank to launder drug money for a specific 445 00:28:06,432 --> 00:28:10,101 Speaker 1: cartel named Los Cachiros that operated all along the Caribbean 446 00:28:10,142 --> 00:28:12,912 Speaker 1: coast of Honduras. So I think what's important to remember 447 00:28:12,972 --> 00:28:15,842 Speaker 1: about this case is that the state of Honduras has 448 00:28:15,922 --> 00:28:20,842 Speaker 1: consistently over many years worked alongside and defended the interests 449 00:28:21,042 --> 00:28:25,671 Speaker 1: of drug traffickers like the Rosenthal family and used the 450 00:28:25,712 --> 00:28:29,951 Speaker 1: state in order to promote the interests of these very problematic, 451 00:28:30,012 --> 00:28:33,262 Speaker 1: wealthy elite that are deeply involved in drug trafficking. And 452 00:28:33,302 --> 00:28:35,902 Speaker 1: that's sort of happening all along the coast of Honduras. 453 00:28:35,982 --> 00:28:38,822 Speaker 1: It's not specific to just Tela Bay, where this one 454 00:28:38,882 --> 00:28:42,862 Speaker 1: particular conflict is going on, where five Garifuna have been criminalized, 455 00:28:43,142 --> 00:28:47,032 Speaker 1: but it's happening in many different hotel, resort, golf course, 456 00:28:47,432 --> 00:28:51,872 Speaker 1: cruise ship terminal projects that are basically promoted both in 457 00:28:51,912 --> 00:28:54,352 Speaker 1: the Bay Islands, which is off the north coast of Honduras, 458 00:28:54,432 --> 00:28:58,171 Speaker 1: and then also across the Caribbean coast on mainland Honduras. 459 00:28:59,792 --> 00:28:59,972 Speaker 2: Yeah. 460 00:29:00,032 --> 00:29:03,931 Speaker 5: And the Rosenthal family also were like a lot of 461 00:29:03,952 --> 00:29:06,912 Speaker 5: the elites in Honduras, you know, have their tentacles everywhere. 462 00:29:06,992 --> 00:29:07,272 Speaker 4: Right. 463 00:29:07,332 --> 00:29:12,822 Speaker 5: Banking, land, other natural resources and the media as well. 464 00:29:12,882 --> 00:29:13,182 Speaker 2: Right. 465 00:29:13,302 --> 00:29:15,902 Speaker 5: I see the parallel then there with what's happening in 466 00:29:15,922 --> 00:29:16,382 Speaker 5: the US. 467 00:29:16,442 --> 00:29:16,622 Speaker 1: Right. 468 00:29:16,662 --> 00:29:18,282 Speaker 3: Just this concentration of power. 469 00:29:18,912 --> 00:29:21,372 Speaker 5: And the reason I mentioned that is that we're seeing 470 00:29:22,582 --> 00:29:26,202 Speaker 5: Garifuna leaders being criminalized. 471 00:29:25,722 --> 00:29:27,282 Speaker 3: In the mainstream media as well. 472 00:29:27,382 --> 00:29:30,542 Speaker 5: So, you know, their defense of their land, their ancestral 473 00:29:30,662 --> 00:29:34,392 Speaker 5: rights are being equated to being sort of like organized 474 00:29:34,452 --> 00:29:35,652 Speaker 5: crime almost, you know. 475 00:29:35,692 --> 00:29:36,952 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about that? 476 00:29:37,872 --> 00:29:38,072 Speaker 2: Sure. 477 00:29:38,112 --> 00:29:40,952 Speaker 1: And I think that that intention has the attempt to 478 00:29:41,012 --> 00:29:45,082 Speaker 1: link the Garifuna to organized crime, also, you know, to 479 00:29:45,122 --> 00:29:49,972 Speaker 1: terrorism itself. is something that is very important right now, 480 00:29:50,092 --> 00:29:54,582 Speaker 1: both in the regional context, given U.S. President Donald Trump's 481 00:29:54,942 --> 00:29:59,441 Speaker 1: alleged or allegations that they're attacking narco-terrorism across the region 482 00:29:59,502 --> 00:30:04,282 Speaker 1: and using that justification to invade countries, to bomb boats, 483 00:30:04,782 --> 00:30:08,302 Speaker 1: to carry out joint operations in multiple parts of Latin America. 484 00:30:08,842 --> 00:30:12,392 Speaker 1: But in Honduras, as a result of that same regional politics, 485 00:30:12,452 --> 00:30:17,232 Speaker 1: this attack on alleged narco-terrorism, the Honduran government has been 486 00:30:17,292 --> 00:30:22,132 Speaker 1: modifying laws since January of this year to basically redefine 487 00:30:22,252 --> 00:30:26,672 Speaker 1: what being associated with terrorism means. And so Ofrene, along 488 00:30:26,692 --> 00:30:29,022 Speaker 1: with the social movement, has been raising alarm to the 489 00:30:29,062 --> 00:30:32,181 Speaker 1: fact that now the government of Honduras has given itself 490 00:30:32,542 --> 00:30:36,951 Speaker 1: the ability to declare any group a terrorist organization. And 491 00:30:36,972 --> 00:30:40,152 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of concern that these mainstream media attempts, 492 00:30:40,212 --> 00:30:44,481 Speaker 1: which are driven by racism, by ignorance, is this attempt 493 00:30:44,542 --> 00:30:48,462 Speaker 1: to link Ofrene, the Afro-Indigenous people that are defending their 494 00:30:48,502 --> 00:30:54,661 Speaker 1: land rights and their cultural integrity, to terrorist organizations, to narco-terrorism, 495 00:30:54,962 --> 00:30:57,032 Speaker 1: which I think has long been part of the war 496 00:30:57,092 --> 00:31:00,872 Speaker 1: on drugs and long been part of this efforts to 497 00:31:00,932 --> 00:31:03,552 Speaker 1: criminalize social movements across Latin America. 498 00:31:05,342 --> 00:31:10,262 Speaker 5: You mentioned that the Garifuna people have had four favorable 499 00:31:10,302 --> 00:31:13,622 Speaker 5: sentences from the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. And one 500 00:31:13,662 --> 00:31:18,282 Speaker 5: of those relates to the Cayo Cochinos archipelago. And I 501 00:31:18,302 --> 00:31:20,312 Speaker 5: wanted to talk a little bit about the reality show 502 00:31:20,372 --> 00:31:25,192 Speaker 5: Survivor because the Spanish language version has for years now 503 00:31:25,492 --> 00:31:29,211 Speaker 5: been filmed on one of the islands. What did the 504 00:31:29,292 --> 00:31:32,332 Speaker 5: court say about that and what's happening there right now? 505 00:31:34,412 --> 00:31:34,632 Speaker 2: Sure. 506 00:31:34,672 --> 00:31:36,812 Speaker 1: So, I mean, I think it's really important to set 507 00:31:36,852 --> 00:31:41,652 Speaker 1: the scene. Cayus Cochinos is this absolutely breathtaking place. It's 508 00:31:41,772 --> 00:31:44,732 Speaker 1: right about 30 kilometers off the main coast of Honduras, 509 00:31:44,792 --> 00:31:47,362 Speaker 1: right in the Caribbean. It's actually a whole bunch of 510 00:31:47,392 --> 00:31:50,741 Speaker 1: little islands and keys all together. And it's surrounded by 511 00:31:50,802 --> 00:31:54,662 Speaker 1: beautiful turquoise waters that are just surrounded by this coral reef. 512 00:31:55,342 --> 00:31:58,522 Speaker 1: And it's actually been declared a World Cultural Heritage Site 513 00:31:58,542 --> 00:32:02,692 Speaker 1: by UNESCO as And so it's no wonder that, you know, 514 00:32:03,172 --> 00:32:06,272 Speaker 1: television shows like Survivor, who have spent 20 years or 515 00:32:06,332 --> 00:32:11,622 Speaker 1: something filming this reality show in this area, is so 516 00:32:11,712 --> 00:32:15,282 Speaker 1: interested in this specific region. But also it's a region 517 00:32:15,362 --> 00:32:19,302 Speaker 1: that is like needs to be protected. And so the 518 00:32:19,342 --> 00:32:22,782 Speaker 1: state of Honduras has tried multiple times to evict and 519 00:32:22,802 --> 00:32:25,202 Speaker 1: get rid of the Garifuna communities, some of which have 520 00:32:25,312 --> 00:32:28,012 Speaker 1: long lived on these small little keys in these islands. 521 00:32:28,582 --> 00:32:31,612 Speaker 1: They've tried to evict them from the area using, you know, 522 00:32:31,772 --> 00:32:35,992 Speaker 1: ecological protection, natural reserve laws to limit their ability to 523 00:32:36,052 --> 00:32:38,671 Speaker 1: have both land rights, but also to protect their own 524 00:32:38,712 --> 00:32:42,092 Speaker 1: habitat and to fish in the area as well. And 525 00:32:42,152 --> 00:32:46,242 Speaker 1: so since Survivor started filming recently, I believe they started 526 00:32:46,362 --> 00:32:50,182 Speaker 1: in August or July, which they have every year, basically 527 00:32:50,242 --> 00:32:54,582 Speaker 1: in coordination with the wealthy elite, international and national organizations. 528 00:32:55,432 --> 00:33:00,032 Speaker 1: that basically say that they are protecting the Cayos Cochinos region, 529 00:33:01,112 --> 00:33:05,952 Speaker 1: they started filming. And because of this new Inter-American Court 530 00:33:06,012 --> 00:33:10,042 Speaker 1: sentence that was basically handed down by the court in 531 00:33:10,102 --> 00:33:14,122 Speaker 1: March of this year, saying that the state of Honduras 532 00:33:14,262 --> 00:33:18,242 Speaker 1: must consult the Garifuna people that live on Cayos Cochinos, 533 00:33:18,922 --> 00:33:22,902 Speaker 1: in relation to their collective property rights and their participation 534 00:33:22,922 --> 00:33:26,882 Speaker 1: in the administration of the protected area, and also before 535 00:33:27,082 --> 00:33:31,902 Speaker 1: any television shows or tourist developments are basically carried out 536 00:33:31,982 --> 00:33:35,062 Speaker 1: in this region. And so seeing that survivors, once again, 537 00:33:35,122 --> 00:33:39,532 Speaker 1: being filmed in one of these islands and keys, Ofrene 538 00:33:39,812 --> 00:33:42,402 Speaker 1: and the Garifuna communities that are affected have gone to 539 00:33:42,462 --> 00:33:44,691 Speaker 1: set up another encampment to say, no, no, no, we 540 00:33:44,732 --> 00:33:48,222 Speaker 1: were not consulted Survivor, they bring in a lot of 541 00:33:48,322 --> 00:33:52,642 Speaker 1: people into this area. They disrupt turtles that are in 542 00:33:52,682 --> 00:33:55,512 Speaker 1: the region. Ofrene has said, we've been the ones that 543 00:33:55,532 --> 00:33:59,112 Speaker 1: have been protecting this area for so long, and we 544 00:33:59,152 --> 00:34:03,171 Speaker 1: were not consulted for this reality show to be filmed 545 00:34:03,632 --> 00:34:06,222 Speaker 1: in this area. And so that's sort of the purpose 546 00:34:06,482 --> 00:34:10,382 Speaker 1: of this particular encampment. In fact, Ofrene has three active 547 00:34:10,442 --> 00:34:13,512 Speaker 1: encampments around the country. one in Tegucigalpa in front of 548 00:34:13,532 --> 00:34:17,452 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, one where survivors being filmed in Cayos Cochinos, 549 00:34:17,532 --> 00:34:20,772 Speaker 1: and another one in San Juan Tela, areas where they're 550 00:34:20,991 --> 00:34:27,322 Speaker 1: actively resisting their dispossession by tourist interests, by drug trafficking interests, 551 00:34:28,322 --> 00:34:31,201 Speaker 1: and also by African palm, which is another major threat 552 00:34:31,221 --> 00:34:32,241 Speaker 1: to their survival as well. 553 00:34:33,512 --> 00:34:39,332 Speaker 5: Miriam Miranda, the founder of Alphanay, has many times said 554 00:34:39,392 --> 00:34:42,511 Speaker 5: to me that Honduras is a laboratory. It's a laboratory 555 00:34:42,552 --> 00:34:46,281 Speaker 5: for extreme capitalism, for the neoliberal project. What do you 556 00:34:46,322 --> 00:34:47,281 Speaker 5: think she means by that? 557 00:34:47,302 --> 00:34:51,962 Speaker 1: I feel like Honduras is often a forgotten country. And 558 00:34:52,042 --> 00:34:55,781 Speaker 1: because it receives such little attention, it's sort of that 559 00:34:55,862 --> 00:34:59,642 Speaker 1: facilitates this, it being used as a laboratory for for 560 00:34:59,681 --> 00:35:05,852 Speaker 1: many extreme neoliberal policies. So widespread dispossession by a whole 561 00:35:05,931 --> 00:35:11,091 Speaker 1: range of private interests by international or transnational capital that 562 00:35:11,132 --> 00:35:15,491 Speaker 1: work alongside the local wealthy elite in a whole range 563 00:35:15,532 --> 00:35:23,931 Speaker 1: of industries, agro-industrial businesses, energy, whether that's solar, whether that's hydroelectric, mining, 564 00:35:24,832 --> 00:35:28,142 Speaker 1: just a whole range of extractive projects. And I think 565 00:35:28,181 --> 00:35:31,882 Speaker 1: what it also is a laboratory for is the conflation 566 00:35:32,042 --> 00:35:37,382 Speaker 1: of neoliberal policies with organized crime, because Honduras has long 567 00:35:37,482 --> 00:35:40,822 Speaker 1: been a narco state. We're seeing a resurrection of the 568 00:35:40,882 --> 00:35:45,361 Speaker 1: narco state model where transnational capital works alongside individuals that 569 00:35:45,402 --> 00:35:49,492 Speaker 1: are proven or there's very widespread evidence that they're involved 570 00:35:49,552 --> 00:35:52,542 Speaker 1: in drug trafficking or illicit interests. And so it's a 571 00:35:52,582 --> 00:35:56,542 Speaker 1: laboratory in that sense, but it's also a laboratory for 572 00:35:56,882 --> 00:36:01,522 Speaker 1: how the state can repress the rising social movement that 573 00:36:01,562 --> 00:36:04,801 Speaker 1: refuses to give up, that constantly stands up against these 574 00:36:04,922 --> 00:36:10,912 Speaker 1: interests and is denouncing, is, you know, putting together encampments 575 00:36:10,951 --> 00:36:13,571 Speaker 1: that have a whole range of tactics to stop this 576 00:36:13,592 --> 00:36:17,031 Speaker 1: sort of encroachment of this model of And so it's 577 00:36:17,411 --> 00:36:19,852 Speaker 1: it's true. And I mean, it's never stopped. Stop being 578 00:36:19,892 --> 00:36:24,392 Speaker 1: a laboratory over many, many years. And we're seeing it again, 579 00:36:24,612 --> 00:36:30,591 Speaker 1: like basically this laboratory being resurrected once again with this 580 00:36:30,672 --> 00:36:31,852 Speaker 1: new government. 581 00:36:32,332 --> 00:36:35,991 Speaker 5: And just thinking about the Trump administration, you know, and 582 00:36:36,052 --> 00:36:38,301 Speaker 5: I don't want to sit here and think that everything 583 00:36:38,322 --> 00:36:41,422 Speaker 5: was great before Trump because it wasn't and not with 584 00:36:41,442 --> 00:36:44,142 Speaker 5: the Democrats and not with other, you know, with previous presidents. 585 00:36:44,402 --> 00:36:47,502 Speaker 3: Republican administrations. But just thinking about right now. 586 00:36:47,322 --> 00:36:51,221 Speaker 5: When you see the very clear move towards trying to 587 00:36:51,262 --> 00:36:55,411 Speaker 5: dismantle international justice and really this, you know, project of 588 00:36:55,491 --> 00:36:59,531 Speaker 5: impunity in which wealth and power is increasingly concentrated, you know, 589 00:36:59,612 --> 00:37:03,882 Speaker 5: among a very few. What are the big fears about 590 00:37:03,911 --> 00:37:08,462 Speaker 5: this sort of Trump 2.0 project for the defenders in 591 00:37:08,642 --> 00:37:10,442 Speaker 5: Honduras and civil society more broadly? 592 00:37:11,482 --> 00:37:13,761 Speaker 1: I think probably the biggest fear is the stamp of 593 00:37:13,822 --> 00:37:19,781 Speaker 1: approval that the current administration is basically consistently receiving from 594 00:37:19,822 --> 00:37:23,531 Speaker 1: the Trump administration because it's a Trump-imposed government. You know, 595 00:37:23,692 --> 00:37:27,552 Speaker 1: the Juan Orlando Dandis was released from prison. He basically 596 00:37:27,612 --> 00:37:32,841 Speaker 1: evaded a 45-year prison sentence in the U.S. for being 597 00:37:32,882 --> 00:37:37,092 Speaker 1: involved in transporting over 400 tons of cocaine into the 598 00:37:37,132 --> 00:37:39,172 Speaker 1: United States. And he was released and he's back in 599 00:37:39,192 --> 00:37:42,171 Speaker 1: the country. And then you have his political party back 600 00:37:42,232 --> 00:37:46,592 Speaker 1: in power. And the evidence is just like overwhelming of 601 00:37:46,652 --> 00:37:50,132 Speaker 1: their corruption, of their involvement in drug trafficking, of the 602 00:37:50,172 --> 00:37:55,452 Speaker 1: repression that they've used against the Honduran population with support 603 00:37:55,552 --> 00:37:58,301 Speaker 1: from the U.S. government. And so I think what is 604 00:37:58,362 --> 00:38:01,642 Speaker 1: the most worrying is just how this whole security model, 605 00:38:01,782 --> 00:38:07,212 Speaker 1: which is fundamentally about corruption and guaranteeing impunity, what that 606 00:38:07,252 --> 00:38:10,612 Speaker 1: will mean for vulnerable populations or populations that are in 607 00:38:10,652 --> 00:38:15,282 Speaker 1: resistance to the transnational interests that are basically and ultimately 608 00:38:15,322 --> 00:38:16,602 Speaker 1: being promoted by the U.S. 609 00:38:16,642 --> 00:38:17,142 Speaker 2: Government. 610 00:38:17,701 --> 00:38:20,321 Speaker 1: And so this has already led to a bunch of 611 00:38:20,902 --> 00:38:25,862 Speaker 1: responses and changes within this administration since January. I mentioned 612 00:38:25,882 --> 00:38:31,372 Speaker 1: the agro-industrial law, which promotes private interests and over public 613 00:38:31,431 --> 00:38:34,991 Speaker 1: interest in land. So it basically pushes aside the land 614 00:38:35,072 --> 00:38:40,352 Speaker 1: rights of Afro-Indigenous individuals or communities and the small farmer 615 00:38:40,411 --> 00:38:43,732 Speaker 1: communities that have long, like you said, been in resistance 616 00:38:43,832 --> 00:38:47,482 Speaker 1: trying to reclaim their land. It also means that they're 617 00:38:47,502 --> 00:38:51,421 Speaker 1: changing the definition of what being a terrorist is. They're 618 00:38:51,462 --> 00:38:55,681 Speaker 1: returning with the mano dura or the hard fist, trying 619 00:38:55,721 --> 00:39:00,261 Speaker 1: to allegedly crack down on crime, when ultimately that will 620 00:39:00,282 --> 00:39:05,622 Speaker 1: mean basically sending in police and military to territories where 621 00:39:05,681 --> 00:39:09,692 Speaker 1: individuals and communities are defending their land rights or protecting 622 00:39:09,772 --> 00:39:13,672 Speaker 1: their environment from large scale development projects. And so I 623 00:39:13,732 --> 00:39:16,212 Speaker 1: think that's the biggest fear. And I think for me, 624 00:39:16,372 --> 00:39:19,852 Speaker 1: as somebody that does solidarity work and really focuses on 625 00:39:20,512 --> 00:39:24,872 Speaker 1: bringing in pressure from internationally is that people are so 626 00:39:25,072 --> 00:39:28,312 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by how bad the state of the world is 627 00:39:28,332 --> 00:39:33,812 Speaker 1: and how corrupt and how just the deterioration of sort 628 00:39:33,832 --> 00:39:37,852 Speaker 1: of any attempts to promote or give the idea that 629 00:39:38,192 --> 00:39:41,742 Speaker 1: there's a value in the rule of law. It's very 630 00:39:41,802 --> 00:39:44,102 Speaker 1: difficult to draw attention to what's going on in a 631 00:39:44,161 --> 00:39:46,701 Speaker 1: small little place like Honduras because people are just so 632 00:39:46,862 --> 00:39:49,462 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with the state of the world. And so that 633 00:39:49,582 --> 00:39:54,221 Speaker 1: really puts already vulnerable populations in an even more vulnerable position. 634 00:39:54,721 --> 00:39:57,951 Speaker 1: And it's very hard to move people. to care about 635 00:39:57,991 --> 00:40:01,092 Speaker 1: these issues because of how low the bar is being 636 00:40:01,752 --> 00:40:06,352 Speaker 1: lowered constantly by this global superpower that has no respect 637 00:40:06,411 --> 00:40:11,222 Speaker 1: for the rule of law, multilateralism, you know, and social 638 00:40:11,262 --> 00:40:12,742 Speaker 1: justice or justice in general. 639 00:40:13,681 --> 00:40:15,181 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think this is a challenge that we 640 00:40:15,241 --> 00:40:18,102 Speaker 5: as journalists face too, right? It's like trying to tell 641 00:40:18,161 --> 00:40:19,702 Speaker 5: stories and explain. 642 00:40:19,282 --> 00:40:20,402 Speaker 3: To people why. 643 00:40:22,342 --> 00:40:26,122 Speaker 5: The violations of people's rights in this archipelago in the 644 00:40:26,161 --> 00:40:29,892 Speaker 5: Caribbean off the coast of Honduras matters. White matters for 645 00:40:29,971 --> 00:40:32,692 Speaker 5: all of us, right? And, you know, there is obviously 646 00:40:32,712 --> 00:40:36,011 Speaker 5: the solidarity and the empathy and the human rights part 647 00:40:36,072 --> 00:40:40,752 Speaker 5: of it, but also the protection of you know, ecosystems 648 00:40:40,832 --> 00:40:45,491 Speaker 5: and our oceans and land, you know, is hugely important 649 00:40:45,681 --> 00:40:47,522 Speaker 5: to everyone, like globally, right? 650 00:40:47,562 --> 00:40:49,062 Speaker 3: We're all interconnected. 651 00:40:49,482 --> 00:40:52,201 Speaker 5: And so, you know, violations of human rights, but also 652 00:40:52,241 --> 00:40:55,542 Speaker 5: environmental rights and sort of, you know, ecocide and all 653 00:40:55,602 --> 00:40:57,342 Speaker 5: these things are so deeply connected. 654 00:40:57,402 --> 00:40:59,542 Speaker 3: And I think the challenge for us, and we're really sort. 655 00:40:59,442 --> 00:41:02,622 Speaker 5: Of thinking about this all the time, At Drilled, you know, 656 00:41:02,642 --> 00:41:04,701 Speaker 5: is that how do we, you know, how do we 657 00:41:04,762 --> 00:41:08,161 Speaker 5: explain to people why it matters? How a, you know, 658 00:41:08,201 --> 00:41:10,982 Speaker 5: resistance by one community in a tiny place you've maybe 659 00:41:11,022 --> 00:41:15,342 Speaker 5: never heard of, you know, is connected to your life, right? 660 00:41:15,392 --> 00:41:17,252 Speaker 5: To sort of the air that you breathe, to your 661 00:41:17,332 --> 00:41:21,491 Speaker 5: energy prices, to global heating, to the extreme weather that 662 00:41:21,512 --> 00:41:23,272 Speaker 5: we're seeing all over the planet, you know, and I 663 00:41:23,312 --> 00:41:25,051 Speaker 5: think that's the challenge that we're, you know, that we're 664 00:41:25,092 --> 00:41:25,931 Speaker 5: definitely in right now. 665 00:41:26,762 --> 00:41:29,142 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I wanted to add as well to that. 666 00:41:29,262 --> 00:41:32,502 Speaker 1: I mean, the climate, it just like completely connects us all. 667 00:41:32,542 --> 00:41:35,861 Speaker 1: There's just no borders with climate, the climate crisis. And 668 00:41:37,122 --> 00:41:41,222 Speaker 1: protecting those areas like Cayos Cochinos, like the Caribbean coast 669 00:41:41,262 --> 00:41:43,901 Speaker 1: of Honduras or anywhere else in the world is all 670 00:41:43,942 --> 00:41:48,562 Speaker 1: part of that broader struggle to protect the climate. But also, 671 00:41:49,142 --> 00:41:50,942 Speaker 1: I think one of the things for me that is 672 00:41:50,962 --> 00:41:54,861 Speaker 1: the biggest connection for folks internationally to Honduras is that 673 00:41:54,931 --> 00:41:58,972 Speaker 1: generally a lot of people will visit Honduras and they'll 674 00:41:59,012 --> 00:42:01,752 Speaker 1: buy property in Honduras and not realizing that they're actually 675 00:42:01,772 --> 00:42:08,011 Speaker 1: getting involved in this like gigantic political corrupt mess. And 676 00:42:08,072 --> 00:42:11,411 Speaker 1: so you have lots of Canadians and U.S.ers and Mexicans 677 00:42:11,572 --> 00:42:15,712 Speaker 1: and Europeans that purchase land or they see this cheap 678 00:42:15,792 --> 00:42:19,152 Speaker 1: land on this beautiful Caribbean coast. And they're like, oh, 679 00:42:19,172 --> 00:42:21,792 Speaker 1: let's go invest there. Let's go on a cruise ship 680 00:42:21,832 --> 00:42:26,491 Speaker 1: there or a cruise ship tour there. I've been there 681 00:42:26,512 --> 00:42:30,302 Speaker 1: because like, oh, my friend has property there. And so 682 00:42:30,512 --> 00:42:32,821 Speaker 1: they don't realize that they're getting involved in these like 683 00:42:32,882 --> 00:42:36,741 Speaker 1: very difficult land conflicts and they end up losing their investments. 684 00:42:37,102 --> 00:42:39,232 Speaker 1: Or they lose their lands. And so that's something that 685 00:42:39,272 --> 00:42:42,152 Speaker 1: I constantly am hearing about where people are saying, oh, 686 00:42:42,172 --> 00:42:44,852 Speaker 1: we didn't know. We didn't know that this was going on. 687 00:42:44,951 --> 00:42:48,312 Speaker 1: And it's just like, you know, that's why you investigate 688 00:42:48,352 --> 00:42:51,542 Speaker 1: before you invest somewhere. You're going to lose your investment. 689 00:42:51,602 --> 00:42:54,442 Speaker 1: And so there's so many connections. Yeah. 690 00:42:54,862 --> 00:42:57,342 Speaker 3: If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. 691 00:42:57,362 --> 00:42:57,432 Speaker 2: Yes. 692 00:42:57,802 --> 00:43:00,652 Speaker 3: I think that's a good lesson. I just wanted to 693 00:43:00,672 --> 00:43:04,451 Speaker 3: finish with this, Karen. So we met for the first 694 00:43:04,491 --> 00:43:05,822 Speaker 3: time at the end of 2013. 695 00:43:05,822 --> 00:43:09,642 Speaker 5: It was election day, the election where Juan Orlando Hernandez... 696 00:43:09,532 --> 00:43:12,612 Speaker 5: first came to power. And we met, I remember it 697 00:43:12,642 --> 00:43:15,261 Speaker 5: really clearly, you had dengue fever, you didn't know, but 698 00:43:16,262 --> 00:43:16,761 Speaker 5: you were sick. 699 00:43:17,181 --> 00:43:19,181 Speaker 3: And that was the first time I met Berta Cáceres. 700 00:43:19,362 --> 00:43:23,182 Speaker 5: And I remember she was addressing a group of election observers, 701 00:43:23,241 --> 00:43:27,692 Speaker 5: international election observers and warning them, you know, about the 702 00:43:27,772 --> 00:43:33,982 Speaker 5: dire situation that communities, social leaders are were facing in 703 00:43:34,022 --> 00:43:37,922 Speaker 5: Honduras and really urging them not to look away. Berta 704 00:43:37,962 --> 00:43:42,161 Speaker 5: was then murdered in 2016. It caused an international uproar. 705 00:43:42,181 --> 00:43:46,392 Speaker 5: And I wonder, 10 years after her assassination, I mean, 706 00:43:47,431 --> 00:43:49,411 Speaker 5: a lot's happened, a lot's changed in the world. The 707 00:43:49,451 --> 00:43:52,192 Speaker 5: National Party are back in power. Juan Orlando Hernandez was 708 00:43:52,232 --> 00:43:57,422 Speaker 5: in power and Berta got murdered, including a four-year term 709 00:43:57,522 --> 00:44:00,312 Speaker 5: for the progressive government in between. 710 00:44:00,632 --> 00:44:02,992 Speaker 3: How would you say the situation. 711 00:44:02,372 --> 00:44:07,591 Speaker 5: For environmental and land rights defenders has changed if at 712 00:44:07,632 --> 00:44:08,572 Speaker 5: all in that period? 713 00:44:10,422 --> 00:44:15,062 Speaker 1: Well, I think you mentioned that there was a progressive 714 00:44:15,102 --> 00:44:18,442 Speaker 1: government in power for four years prior to this current 715 00:44:18,482 --> 00:44:21,422 Speaker 1: government took power in January in Honduras and like progressive 716 00:44:21,442 --> 00:44:25,892 Speaker 1: governments all across Latin America. They face extreme difficulties in 717 00:44:25,931 --> 00:44:29,591 Speaker 1: being able to change the structural issues that affect so 718 00:44:29,652 --> 00:44:33,431 Speaker 1: many Latin American countries. And that's not really excusing them 719 00:44:33,732 --> 00:44:37,091 Speaker 1: because they make very significant mistakes. They repeat the same 720 00:44:37,152 --> 00:44:40,712 Speaker 1: problematic patterns that they themselves make. denounced before they get 721 00:44:40,732 --> 00:44:44,502 Speaker 1: to power. But I think for a while in Honduras, 722 00:44:45,062 --> 00:44:47,202 Speaker 1: for the four years that there was a progressive government, 723 00:44:47,282 --> 00:44:49,622 Speaker 1: I think spaces were a little bit more open to 724 00:44:49,681 --> 00:44:53,142 Speaker 1: dialogue with the state and for communities to be able 725 00:44:53,181 --> 00:44:57,362 Speaker 1: to achieve some of their goals and of their demands 726 00:44:57,402 --> 00:45:00,622 Speaker 1: that they've had for many years. So I do think 727 00:45:00,701 --> 00:45:03,352 Speaker 1: that to a certain degree, political power can be very 728 00:45:03,552 --> 00:45:08,462 Speaker 1: useful for creating spaces for critical voices, for voices that 729 00:45:08,502 --> 00:45:12,122 Speaker 1: are seeking to be included in the political process. But again, 730 00:45:12,142 --> 00:45:15,562 Speaker 1: I think that since January, with this new sort of 731 00:45:15,681 --> 00:45:19,031 Speaker 1: far right or conservative right government that has taken power 732 00:45:19,431 --> 00:45:22,431 Speaker 1: imposed by Donald Trump, I think we're going back to 733 00:45:22,552 --> 00:45:26,132 Speaker 1: seeing that Honduras is once again a dangerous place to 734 00:45:26,192 --> 00:45:30,051 Speaker 1: be an environmentalist, to be a land defender. And it's 735 00:45:30,072 --> 00:45:33,572 Speaker 1: very concerning. And so I think, you know, things change. 736 00:45:34,652 --> 00:45:38,412 Speaker 1: And they could change again for the better. But again, 737 00:45:38,512 --> 00:45:42,082 Speaker 1: I think it's a very difficult situation, very similar to 738 00:45:42,122 --> 00:45:46,562 Speaker 1: what Berta was cautioning people and raising the alarm about 739 00:45:47,802 --> 00:45:49,301 Speaker 1: three years before she was murdered. 740 00:45:50,612 --> 00:45:53,812 Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Karen Spring, co-coordinator of the Honduras 741 00:45:53,852 --> 00:45:54,812 Speaker 5: Solidarity Network. 742 00:45:55,032 --> 00:45:56,012 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Nina. 743 00:45:56,692 --> 00:45:58,692 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to The Spill. We'll be back in 744 00:45:58,732 --> 00:45:59,992 Speaker 5: your feeds next Friday. 745 00:46:03,562 --> 00:46:07,482 Speaker 2: Mina Lakhani literally wrote the book about Berta Caceres. You 746 00:46:07,502 --> 00:46:11,702 Speaker 2: can find a link to her book, Who Killed Berta Caceres? Dams, 747 00:46:11,982 --> 00:46:15,542 Speaker 2: Death Squads, and an Indigenous Defender's Battle for the Planet 748 00:46:16,181 --> 00:46:21,142 Speaker 2: in the show notes. The Spill is a weekly newscast 749 00:46:21,181 --> 00:46:23,921 Speaker 2: brought to you by the team at Drilled. This week's 750 00:46:24,022 --> 00:46:28,412 Speaker 2: episode was edited by Aline Brown and produced by Martin Zaltz-Ostwick. 751 00:46:28,832 --> 00:46:31,272 Speaker 2: Our music is Bird in the Hand by Four Known. 752 00:46:32,152 --> 00:46:36,022 Speaker 2: Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Legal by James Wheaton of the 753 00:46:36,062 --> 00:46:39,261 Speaker 2: First Amendment Project. You can find a lot of the 754 00:46:39,362 --> 00:46:42,681 Speaker 2: reporting that we referenced in this episode on our website 755 00:46:42,802 --> 00:46:46,142 Speaker 2: at Drilled.media. And you can also find us on various 756 00:46:46,181 --> 00:46:50,832 Speaker 2: social media platforms with the handle at Drilled Media. That 757 00:46:50,892 --> 00:46:54,192 Speaker 2: includes YouTube, where you can find a video version of 758 00:46:54,252 --> 00:46:57,652 Speaker 2: this episode. Check that out, and we'll see you next week. 759 00:47:00,572 --> 00:47:01,172 Speaker 1: Thank you.