1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and iHeartRadio podcast. This week's 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: Thursday Therapy, We've got Matt Gutman. He is ABC news 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Chief National correspondent, a multi award winning reporter, and he's 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: got a book out called No Time to Panic. How 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: I Curb My anxiety and Conquered a lifetime of panic attacks. 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: Let's get him on. How are you, Matt good? 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 3: How are you? 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: Thank you for coming onto wind Down? 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 3: So excited. 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm excited because I have dealt with anxiety since I 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: was nineteen years old and I'm forty now, so it's 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: been just a journey, and so I love I love 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: speaking to people that are open about talking about anxiety 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: because just like when I was reading more about you, 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: because I know who you are, obviously I've seen you 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: on the news and everything that you've done, But you 17 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: don't know what actually someone is going through. You just 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: see who they are, you know, and what you might 19 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: think they are. 20 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: Right. 21 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: So the fact that you even said yourself like that 22 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: you were privately dealing with anxiety for how many years? 23 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 3: I mean with panic for twenty years? Yeah, anxiety my 24 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 3: whole life, right, Like I just you know, I'm a 25 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 3: little bit older than you are, and so maybe there 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: was like a half or like quarter generational difference. 27 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: But not by much. What are you forty five forty six? 28 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, But nobody talked about anxiety when I was young, 29 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 3: Like they talked about depression. That was something that people 30 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: were concerned about, but nobody like I don't remember hearing 31 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 3: anxiety or maybe that was reserved for like you know, 32 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 3: just like the most neurotic Jews, like, oh, they have anxiety, 33 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: but nobody talked about it. It's like something that everybody experiences. 34 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 3: Are many many people do? 35 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: What was for you? 36 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: What was the moment that you had your first that 37 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: you can tie back? Because for me, have you done 38 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: EMDR and stuff too? 39 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: Do you know that's the one thing that I have 40 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: not done. I've done everything I've done, like all the 41 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: cognit to behavioral therapy, every pharmacological thing. I never did 42 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 3: EMDR and I had a practitioner and I was like, eh, 43 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 3: but I've heard it's great. 44 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it, big advocate for EMDR. But in 45 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: your past, like, can you draw back that moment like 46 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: where you think that anxiety was a coming from and 47 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: then one was the first kind of panic attack? 48 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: That you had. 49 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: I mean, my first real panic attack was I think 50 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 3: I had meaning while I was like super high achiever 51 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: and put a lot of pressure on myself and like, 52 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: I think my mom did too. So I went to 53 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: a school called Williams College, which is a pretty fancy 54 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 3: liberal arts college, and my essay to get in was 55 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 3: about like a tongue in cheek thing about how my 56 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: mom thought I was a prophet, and like, well, do 57 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 3: you offer classes in being a profit or prophecy at 58 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: Williams Because my mom thinks that I'm a prophet. So 59 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 3: there was like a lot of press and I love 60 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 3: my mom. 61 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: It's a lot of pressure, A lot. 62 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 3: Of pressure like it, but it was like super high cheap. 63 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 3: I was captain of the football team, captain of the lacrosse, 64 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: school council president, all aps, you know, is super hard charging, 65 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: but I was also a disaster inside. And when I 66 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 3: was school council president, you have to deliver, you know, 67 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: a daily address to the school in front of the podium, 68 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 3: and I would have these bouts of what I thought 69 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 3: were nerves and I get very anxious and I kind 70 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: of have tunnel vision and my mouth would get really dry, 71 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: and these were all symptoms of anxiety or panic, but 72 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: my first like sweating through my underpants. I'm molting into 73 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: a werewolf. Something is taking over my body and I 74 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: don't know what it is type of panic. Was giving 75 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: my or defending my college thesis my senior year, and 76 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: I remember I was wearing a turtleneck sweater, which is 77 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 3: a really bad idea whenever you're giving an address, do 78 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: not publicly wearing a turtleneck sweater. But I thought it 79 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: looked like very cool lead you, like, you know, academic 80 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 3: and intellectual, and so I remember going up there and 81 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: sudden they're cats clawing at my neck and their feral 82 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 3: cat like started itching and like I had tunnel vision, 83 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 3: and my heart started to feel like it was bursting 84 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 3: through my chest and I couldn't breathe, and my mouth 85 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: went dry, and I had feelings of like complete loss 86 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 3: of control. This is like classic panic attack, and I 87 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 3: had no idea what was happening to me. 88 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: We thought you were probably my first panic attack. I'm like, 89 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: I'm dying. I'm having a heart attack and I'm dying. 90 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 3: Well, which is super common, right, Like you know, forty 91 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 3: percent of everybody who goes to the er complaining of 92 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: chest pain in the United States is having a panic attack. 93 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: And fifty eight percent, almost two thirds of all the 94 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 3: people who checked themselves in where cardiac issues at the 95 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 3: er are either having panic or anxiety. Wow, that's how 96 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: chronic it is in the US, and that's how or 97 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: diagnosed it is. And most of those people are sent 98 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: packing back home not being told that it was anxiety. 99 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: They're told, Okay, you know, we can tell you, we've 100 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 3: done the EKGs. You're not having a heart attack. We 101 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: don't exactly know what it is. Only some of them 102 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 3: are actually told this is anxiety related. You're okay, you 103 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: don't have to come back if those exact symptoms persist, 104 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 3: if you you know, I don't want to let anybody 105 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 3: think out there that if they are having a heart 106 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 3: attack that they should not go to right. 107 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, still go to the doctors if you feel, yeah. 108 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: The problem is. And it's like in the intro to 109 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 3: my book, is that you know I interviewed this woman 110 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 3: named Kelly croppol Or, who is the a nine to 111 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: one one operator for seventeen years. Jennen. She was like 112 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: she had done everything, she had heard every possible call 113 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: you could imagine, and she was never in her seventeen 114 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: year career, able to discern the difference between someone who 115 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 3: was having a panic attack given the symptoms, and someone 116 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: who was having a heart attack. To her, it sounded 117 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 3: the same. It's chest pain, shortness of breath, sweating, trembling, shaking, 118 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: tunnel vision, feelings of impending death. Like all of the 119 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 3: symptoms are so closely linked. And there's actually a reason 120 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: for that evolutionarily. And I know you just recently did 121 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 3: a podcast about the good anxiety, right, yeah, and there is, 122 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: like there's really good science behind it, and that is 123 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: your body is trying to let you know that whatever 124 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 3: behavior you're doing at that time is a threat or 125 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: is scary to it, and so it's trying to tell 126 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: you in the most powerful, possible memorable way not to 127 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: repeat that behavior. So for some people it's not you 128 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: don't always want to listen to that anxiety. It's not 129 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: always the good. 130 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: Anxiety, right exactly. 131 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 3: You just have to like figure it out. But you know, 132 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: public speaking is something that we have to do in 133 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: our society, so there are ways of getting over it. 134 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: But basically, yeah, a panic is like the evolution tionary 135 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 3: way your body is trying to tell you to avoid 136 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: a certain behavior and to make it memorable. 137 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: Have you ever had a panic attack when you were 138 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: on air? 139 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: Hundreds of my problem. I just want to tell people 140 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 3: what a panic attack is, right. So a panic attack 141 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: is your brain telling your body that it is in threat, right, 142 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 3: and it is essentially the stress response. And it's that 143 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: same thing that you'd feel when you're driving on the 144 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 3: freeway to downtown Nashville and there's a pile up in 145 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 3: front of you, and your body just jumps into action 146 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 3: and you feel like the loosening of your teeth kind 147 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: of you feel that jolt of adrenaline, and you feel 148 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 3: the bubbling in your stomach. It's the same kind of thing, 149 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: and your body wants you to remember it, and your 150 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: body basically would prefer you having a thousand false alarms, 151 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: which is a panic attack, so long as you don't 152 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: miss the one real alarm, which is the pile up 153 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 3: on the freeway or the interstate. So your body's kind 154 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 3: of rig to protect you in that way, even though 155 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: a panic attack is massively uncomfortable. But I didn't know 156 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: any of this at the time. So, like after college, 157 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: and men are really good at this, I compartmentalized panic 158 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: attack talking about my thesis and Jenna like, I know 159 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 3: a lot of people experience this too, but like that thesis, 160 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: the thesis was graded, the talk was not like it 161 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: wasn't even mandatory. There was nothing riding on my performance, 162 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: and yet I felt that I was inadequate and that 163 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: everything was writing on it, and I put so much 164 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: pressure on myself that I had this panic attack when 165 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 3: there was nothing riding on it, and so I put 166 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 3: it away because I'm really good at compartmentalizing stuff, and 167 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 3: I didn't deal with it. And then I started to 168 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 3: do print reporting, and I moved to Israel and I 169 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 3: was covering the Palestinian uprising there in the early two thousands. 170 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 3: Then I covered the war in he and Afghanistan, and 171 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 3: I went to Syria and Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. I 172 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: was all over the Middle East covering wars and conflicts, 173 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: and I was okay. And then I started doing ABC 174 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 3: Radio and I realized that words started to magically disappear 175 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 3: from the paper I was reading off and my hands 176 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: would tremble, and there was sort of the telltale signs 177 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: of whatever terrible experience I'd had in college and then 178 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 3: came back to the US, and I realized that I 179 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: was having these bouts of quote unquote nerves more frequently 180 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: when live on air and on television, and over the years, 181 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 3: I had them hundreds of times, hundreds and hundreds of 182 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 3: panic attacks on air, and the brutal irony of it 183 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: was that the EPs, the executive producers of the shows 184 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 3: were like, oh, man, Guvernment really has so much energy 185 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 3: on air. I love him live, Let's put him on 186 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 3: live more. Because I was literally like pooping my pants. 187 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 3: You know, I'm having a full on panic attack, which 188 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 3: is like a surge of a right on it. So 189 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: I am zinging with energy and lifeblood. But it's massively 190 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: uncomfortable and painful and just it sucked. But it kind 191 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: of like helped me get where I was, ironically and 192 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: where I am today, because it seemed like I was 193 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 3: just so full of energy, but what was happening was 194 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: we're panic attacks, and that just like it continued until 195 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 3: January twenty sixth, twenty twenty, when. 196 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: I like, that's when it stopped. In twenty twenty, No, 197 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: that's when I had a reckoning. 198 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: Oh okay, was it because you had more time to or 199 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: was it because everything was falling apart around you and 200 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: the world and everything happening, that you were able to 201 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: kind of look more inside because I think there was 202 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: so much reflection during that time, because it was so 203 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: noisy but yet so quiet in our homes that we 204 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: had to kind of face what was our internal loudness? 205 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: Right? 206 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I had to face this internal loudness. 207 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 3: And it was just before the pandemic actually started. And 208 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, I've been all over the world for ABC. 209 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,959 Speaker 3: I've reported now from like sixty countries, forty eight states 210 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 3: or nine states. I still haven't done North Dakota, but like, 211 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 3: I've been everywhere, and I've done a lot of things. 212 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: And I was home actually on January twenty sixth, twenty twenty, 213 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: and I got a call from my boss and she's like, 214 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: and I live in Los Angeles in an area called 215 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: Encino and Calabasas, where Kobe Brian's helicopter went down is 216 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 3: only like ten miles away, and suddenly there is this 217 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 3: global story happening in my backyard. And the boss is like, hey, 218 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 3: I need you to get to Calabasas asap. We think 219 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: Kobe Brian's helicopter went down, and we think his daughter 220 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: Gianna and maybe some of the other we're not sure 221 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: who's on there. We've got to get you there a SAP. 222 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 3: So I jetted out and during our first live special 223 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 3: report on Kobe's death, I made a critical reporting error. 224 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 3: And I'd had something very similar happen to me when 225 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: I was twelve and my father was forty one, so 226 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 3: basically the exact same ages as Kobe and Gianna. My 227 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 3: father was killed in a plane crash and he was 228 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: exactly it was forty two and three months when it happened, 229 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 3: and I had just eclipsed his age, and so my 230 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: whole life, Janna, I thought. And I'd lived life with 231 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: like blazing speed. I got married, I had kids, I'd 232 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: been to war, I fallen in love in Argentina, I had, 233 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: you know, jumped from airplanes, swam with sharks, you know, 234 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 3: been shot at. I'd packed everything that I possibly could 235 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: into the forty two years because I thought, well, I'm 236 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 3: not going to live past forty two. That's going to 237 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 3: be a natural terminus of my lifespan. And then once 238 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: it happened, I was like, oh what now, And I 239 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 3: didn't And that was just before the Kobe crash happened, 240 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: and so I was in this weird like you mentioned 241 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: that that headspace. I was in that weird headspace when 242 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: this happened. And then finally the thing I'd feared most, 243 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 3: which is losing control while live on television, yeah, and 244 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 3: making a critical mistake happened and ABC suspended me for 245 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: a month. I had to make a decision with my life, 246 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: like I had been miserable in my job because of 247 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: the panic attacks for years. I told my wife about it, 248 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 3: and she's like, you know, babe, if this makes you 249 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: so unhappy, we'll downsize. We'll change jobs. Dude, do whatever 250 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 3: you need to do. She was very supportive, And I've 251 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 3: been thinking about getting out of TV news because, like, 252 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 3: it sucked. I hated the experience of having not only 253 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 3: to experience the panic attack, but anybody who's got anxiety 254 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 3: out there or experiences panic knows that the anticipatory anxiety 255 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: of having a panic attack is as bad as the 256 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: actual feeling of being in one in the moment. And 257 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: she's like, do what you gotta do. And you know, 258 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 3: suspension has a way of opening up your schedule. So 259 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: during the month that I had to like twittle my 260 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 3: films and like beat myself up and not sleep and 261 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: hate myself and feel guilty for the mistake I made 262 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: and any pain I caused this poor family. You know, 263 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: Kobe Bryant's the patron saint of Los Angeles. Like the 264 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: guy was a hero to so many. Aside from being 265 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 3: a great basketball player, he was like massively philanthropic and 266 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 3: great for this city and like just a good person 267 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: and so like I was like, okay, what now. So 268 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 3: I had a buddy who was on the lacrosse team 269 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: in high school who'd now become a yoga instructor and 270 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 3: breath coach, breathwork coach, and so was like he'd been 271 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: telling me for so long to do breath work, and 272 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, I have a bread or what is 273 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: this meditation to voodoo brews? 274 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: Exactly? 275 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then I went and did it because I 276 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: had time. And I was like, you know, sitting in 277 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: this room in Venice, California, which is like the crunchiest 278 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 3: hippiest place, and what was it called like serenity or 279 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 3: sanctumy called sanctum like weeked of Petuli, And I'm like whoa. 280 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 3: I go in there and I lie down on my body. 281 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 3: Lane Jaffe, who was just a fantastic practitioner and breathwork coach, 282 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 3: just starts telling us, like gets us in the spirit 283 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: in the head mode, and you know, if people have 284 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: ever done holotropic breath work, it's kind of like this. 285 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: You're breathing in twice belly chest out, and you're doing 286 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: it over and over and over again, and eventually what 287 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: happens is you're going to hyperventilate, and that means you're 288 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: taking in too much oxygen and you need carbon dioxide 289 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 3: to break down oxygen. So what you're doing is depriving 290 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: your body of oxygen. So the oxygen rich blood goes 291 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: to the center of your body or core, and the 292 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 3: rest of your body starts to go numb, and so 293 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: people get lobster claws, and like I started locking up 294 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 3: like this, and my legs locked up, and you go, 295 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: if you keep going into an altered stake and you're 296 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: not taking drugs, you're not on anything other than living 297 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 3: and changing the pH balance in your body, it's nuts. 298 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: And suddenly, like I'm lying there on the floor with 299 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 3: a bunch of total strangers and I started sobbing, you know, 300 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 3: really crying in a way that I hadn't done in many, many, 301 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 3: many years, probably since my father died, like thirty years 302 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: before that. And I'm crying and crying and Lane comes 303 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: and he holds space like he just presses all my legs. 304 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 3: It's like, I'm here, but keep going, like he doesn't 305 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: say that, but that's what he's saying. And it was 306 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: an amazing cathartic experience weeping in front of these people, 307 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: and then they were like so massively supportive. And I 308 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 3: went back and did it again the next week and 309 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 3: cried again, and it was just wonderful, and I realized that, 310 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: you know, so the panic is a symptom of something 311 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 3: else that I've got to go find. I don't know 312 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 3: what it is, but I threw myself in it like 313 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 3: I would throw myself into any other reporting project or investigation. 314 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: And that's like in my own everybody's got to find 315 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: the modality that works for them. For me, it's like, 316 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 3: all right, I have an objective. I am an investigative reporter. 317 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 3: I am going to go report the crap out of 318 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 3: whatever this thing is that's bothering me. And that's how 319 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 3: actually actually not how the book started yet, because I 320 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 3: was just trying to fix me. But this is how 321 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: the journey started. And I know journey is like a 322 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 3: cliche term at this point, but that's what it was 323 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: for me. It was like three and a half years 324 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 3: of trying everything other than the MDR to like figure 325 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 3: this out. 326 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: Sure, in your book, no time to panic. What is 327 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: one of the best tips that you think you've put 328 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: in there for people to help overcome this panic anxiety 329 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: order disorder? 330 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: Listen, I'll put it into a couple of categories. The 331 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 3: first category is like, and you know everybody is everybody 332 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 3: is different. 333 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: Sure, what works for one person might not work for 334 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 2: the other. 335 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 3: And yeah, I'm not a psychologist, and I don't think 336 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: a psychologist is a perfect fit for every patient. But 337 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: I know what worked for me. I am someone who 338 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 3: does things in the extremes, right like I have been 339 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 3: covering conflict in war for twenty four years, right Like 340 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 3: I am drawn to that place where life is closest 341 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 3: to death and where people are experiencing often the worst 342 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: days of their lives. For me, the intensity of being 343 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 3: there and trying to tell their stories is what gets 344 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: me going and what keeps me in this business. And 345 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: I'm drawn to it in the US as well, and 346 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: that's just part of what I do. So for I 347 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 3: was so good and had become so good an expert 348 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: in fact, in compartmentalizing and saying, Okay, whatever is the 349 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 3: symptom of this panic or whatever is the underlying disease 350 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 3: quote unquote of my panic. I'm going to put that 351 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: to the side because I'm really good at that, and 352 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 3: I couldn't access it even in talk therapy, which I've 353 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 3: been in for many many years. Couldn't access it with 354 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: just talk therapy. I needed Jennet to get out of 355 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 3: my right mind in order to access it. So for me, 356 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 3: psychedelics were very, very helpful because I needed to get 357 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 3: out of Matt Gutman in order to examine Matt Gutman's 358 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 3: That's interesting. 359 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: I was going to do I was going to try ayahuasca, 360 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: but I'm so I hate not being in control that 361 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: I was like, I just can't do it. I just 362 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: I literally It's why you know, I've been drunk once 363 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: in my life. Like, I don't do drugs. I don't 364 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: like to feel out of control. It's the fear for me, 365 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: it's always my anxiety is like the fear of kind 366 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: of the unknown right, So like I'm afraid the plane 367 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: might crash when I'm on it. 368 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 2: I'm afraid, you know, I'm going. 369 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: To get stuck in Italy when we go on our honeymoon, 370 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: and it's going to be a disaster. Like I fear 371 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: the unknown coming up. And that's what always kind of 372 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: holds me captive with my anxiety now a days. But 373 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: it's I just for some reason, I couldn't do it. 374 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: And then again, like it says it works for I've 375 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: heard amazing things about psychedelics for that, I just I 376 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: just can't do it. 377 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 3: I needed to lose control. I understand why you are. 378 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 3: And worrying is like one of the greatest evolutionary traits 379 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: that primates apes, great apes humans had ever developed, Like 380 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: we learned. The reason you're sitting there with your MacBook 381 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 3: on your lap and you know, a really nice microphone 382 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 3: and we're able to communicate two thousand miles away from 383 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 3: each other is because humans created were worriers. We got 384 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 3: scared sooner, and we developed technologies to be able to 385 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 3: make our lives easier or to be able to alleviate 386 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 3: some of our worries, from fire to the wheel to 387 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: wireless technology to the iPhone, right, Like all of this 388 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 3: is because humans were trying to alleviate their future concerns. 389 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,719 Speaker 3: So anxiety has been like the greatest invention ever in 390 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: the history of the planet. It just doesn't feel good always, but. 391 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: It's very helpfulful. 392 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to lose control, right the only way 393 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 3: I could find healing is if I found a way 394 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 3: to lose control, and if I was essentially conscious or like, 395 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 3: if I had control over my mind, I wasn't going 396 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 3: to let go. 397 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: I heard a therapist tell me recently on here actually 398 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: that you should you should do the thing that worries 399 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: you and have your anxiety because then you realize it 400 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: didn't kill you. So she's like, like, I am so 401 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: fearful of being because my mind is triggered from PTSD 402 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: from being trapped when abuser was trying to kill me, 403 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: and so I don't like to feel trapped. So when 404 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: I'm on the expressway and it's I will not go 405 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: on there if it's traffic, because if I feel stuck, 406 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: I will go a full blown panic attack. Like no 407 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: matter if I'm on medication or not or worked on 408 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: it a million times in the MDR, it's just my 409 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: body will just like freak out. And so she's she's like, 410 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: she's like, go do it at five pm rush hour. 411 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: I'm like, I just I don't want to. I literally 412 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: don't want to. 413 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: I would just take the side streets. It's fine. 414 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: But that's how that's how someone had said to do that. 415 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: But I'm like, I don't want to feel it, you know, 416 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: I know I'll be fine. That's the thing at the 417 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: end of the day, Like now I know, Okay, it's 418 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: just anxiety. I will be fine, Like I'm not gonna die. 419 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: Have you done cognitive behavioral therapy, I mean that's what 420 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: it sounds like she was advising as a form of that. 421 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: But I've done I've done versions of it. Yeah, like 422 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: I've done and where you know, I would talk through it, 423 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: have the anxiety. But she was saying, like, physically, go 424 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: do it, like get in the car, get in a 425 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: jam packed freeway. 426 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: And I was like them, good. 427 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: So, typically, you know, exposure therapy, cognitive behavior of therapy 428 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 3: CBT is a little bit more gradual, like most therapists 429 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 3: are not going to throw you into the pit of 430 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: the thing that you fear most immediately. They would say, okay, 431 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 3: is there a side street that typically has worse traffic. 432 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 3: You know that, like the lights back up and you 433 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 3: get a little bit slower. Try that first, then go 434 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 3: don't go into like the peak of rush hour. Try 435 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: three pm or seven pm, and then work up to 436 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 3: the five pm rush hour like gridlock. The other issue 437 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 3: I have with CBT is that I think it's kind 438 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 3: of male centric, and it tells us the basic premise 439 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 3: is that the thing you fear is unreasonable. The problem 440 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: with that is the thing you fear, Janna and the 441 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 3: thing that I feared were not only reasonable, they happened. 442 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 3: You were trapped by a person who has tried to 443 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 3: kill you, Like you've experienced your biggest fear, and so 444 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 3: you're cognitively certain, well, that thing can happen. I can 445 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 3: become trapped, and I have been trapped. So to brain 446 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: out of it, to tell your brain that it's unreasonable 447 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 3: to fear that thing is crazy, and same with you. 448 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 3: Like I feared losing control on air, and then I 449 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 3: lost control on air and I said something that was 450 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: wrong and badly wrong and may have hurt people and 451 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: certainly hurt my career for a period of time. But 452 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: like my worst fear about panic actually happened, which is 453 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: why I felt like, Okay, this is a big deal. 454 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: I need to treat it as if it's a big deal, 455 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 3: and I'm going to do everything that I need to 456 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: do and I'm going to throw put my head through 457 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 3: the wall to get there. That was just like the 458 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: mental contortion that I had to get to in order 459 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: to work towards healing. But again, like different modalities work 460 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 3: for different people. 461 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: Sure, what is the biggest takeaway that you want for 462 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: people when they read this book? 463 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 3: Okay, So like, first of all, it's knowing what panic is, 464 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 3: which super helped me, you know, and no Time to Panic. 465 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 3: That the title is sort of like you know, has 466 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: double meaning. One is like I got time to panic, 467 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 3: Like I got to live life, my work, I want 468 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 3: to be with my kids, want I don't want to 469 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: be riddled with anticipatory anxiety. And the other part was 470 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 3: like this is not the time to panic, Like I 471 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 3: do not want to be panicking now. And so I 472 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: learned a couple of things. First, I went into this 473 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 3: crazy jag on evolutionary psychology, like I couldn't understand why 474 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: it was the humans panic to begin with, Like how 475 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 3: could this be evolutionarily beneficial. Right. The bottom line is 476 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 3: that your brain doesn't care if you suffer or not. 477 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 3: It wants you to live. And the founder of evolutionary psychiatry, 478 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 3: Randy NeSSI, was like, no, panic is one hundred percent normal. 479 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: Your body would prefer you having one thousand panic attacks 480 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 3: as long as you don't miss an actual stress response, 481 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 3: right that pile up on the freeway. So you don't 482 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 3: miss the pile up on the freeway and you're alive. 483 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 3: Your body doesn't care, So a panic is normal. It's okay. 484 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 3: You're not like some weird kink in the human genome 485 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 3: if you have panic attacks. Because I thought I was two. 486 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: The period of panic is fifteen to ninety seconds, and 487 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 3: that interesting, the period in which your brain is assessing 488 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 3: a threat fifteen to ninety seconds, and after that you're 489 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 3: still feeling something, and that's cortisol finishing its work through 490 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 3: your system, and a drenalones already passed through. You're feeling 491 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 3: anxiety after that, and all of us can deal with anxiety. 492 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 3: We deal with it on a regular basis. So I 493 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 3: tell people like, just know, you can get anybody can 494 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 3: get through fifteen to ninety seconds, Like we can get 495 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 3: through that, and the rest is anxiety. That's cake, right, 496 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 3: Like we all live with anxiety. So if you can 497 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 3: get through the fifteen to ninety seconds, that's all the 498 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: actual panic is. The next thing is there are ways 499 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 3: to try to prevent having a panic in the first place, 500 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 3: like forget dealing with it acutely. When you're in the 501 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: midst of a panic, everybody wants the new pharmacological trick, 502 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 3: or tell me what kind of psychedelic I need to take, 503 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 3: or what's the feenine or whatever additive that I need 504 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 3: to put in my coffee that'll make me better. The 505 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: trick is like, be kind to your body, right, don't 506 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 3: drink that extra cup of coffee before you have a presentation. 507 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: Coffee will give you like if you have too much caffeine, 508 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 3: it will help trigger a panic attack. Get your exercise, 509 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 3: eat right, take a walk, breathe air, like all the 510 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 3: stuff we know that we should be doing. That is 511 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 3: kind of kinder and gentler to our body. We should 512 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 3: be doing and reduces the incidence of panic and anxiety. 513 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 3: That's science. We have all the chemicals we need, and 514 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: you're talking to a guy who has tried every psychedelic chemicals. 515 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: But I have all the chemicals that I need in 516 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: my own body in order to adjust myself right. I 517 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 3: take a five minute walk and I get a dose 518 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: of serotonin, which is what I would take when I 519 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 3: did seventeen years or eighteen years of taking an SSRI, 520 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: an antidepressant. Ste Like, you have that in your body 521 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: and you can secrete it when or you can get 522 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 3: it going with the hormone going in your body. When 523 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: you take a five minute while sunshine, you get endorphins, 524 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: which is indogenous morphine, the morphine your body creates naturally 525 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 3: by going for a run or exercising hard for thirty minutes. 526 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: You get oxytocin by crying, by letting yourself cry, which 527 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 3: is not a terrible thing, or by hugging a loved 528 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 3: one chest to chest, like when you actually nuts, you know, 529 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: the guy hug. 530 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: It's like me and my fiance we have we do 531 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: as was it a five six second kiss and a 532 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: like a fifteen second hug, Like that's what they say 533 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: it gives you. It does, Yeah, it makes your brain waves. 534 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: All My wife and. 535 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: I have a thing. Whether they're like you know, like 536 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 3: there's like the the fifty percent hug and then the 537 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 3: seventy five percent, hug in the eighty five and then 538 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 3: like sometimes you need one hundred percent, which is like, 539 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 3: just like you said, the fifteen seconds of fully embracing, 540 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 3: not like the pad, but like in each other. And 541 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: that's the science of it. You're releasing oxytocin, which is 542 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 3: the bonding hormone, and if feels are really good and 543 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: it helps, okay, And once you're if you're in a 544 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: panic attack, there are a couple of mindfulness techniques that 545 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 3: that I like or if I feel it coming on. Uh, 546 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: And luckily I've been pretty panic free for a few 547 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 3: years now since doing the book. But what I like 548 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 3: and I do anyway, is a five senses routine. 549 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: Love that one? 550 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 3: You know that one? 551 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: Right? 552 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? 553 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: I was like one thing I noticed in the room 554 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: right now that I don't notice? What do I smell? 555 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: What do I hear? What do I taste? What was 556 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: the other one? 557 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? 558 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 3: So I do five things that I see, and I 559 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 3: pick things that are like like you kind of did, 560 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: either vibrant or things I might not notice. So I'm 561 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: looking around and you can the good thing about this 562 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 3: is that nobody has to know you're doing a mindfulness technique. 563 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: It's not like you're tapping yourself weirdly that people do. 564 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: It's not weird, but yeah, you think or you know, 565 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 3: I do a beaded meditation thing where I I have 566 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 3: a string and I go down beats and I do 567 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: it my imagination. But you can do this one like 568 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 3: and people are thinking you're completely with them, just standing. 569 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 3: So five things you see, four things you hear, and 570 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 3: you have to isolate the sounds around you, which is 571 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 3: fantastic because it really takes your mind off of panic. 572 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: And the beauty is your brain's just not that great 573 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 3: at focusing on multiple things at once, so when you 574 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 3: start finding and isolating sounds, that's when the symptoms of 575 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: panic start to abate because your brain just can't cut it. 576 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 3: Three things you feel like, I feel the shoes on 577 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 3: my feet, I feel my pants on my legs, I 578 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 3: feel my butt in my seat. Then you can do 579 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 3: a feel more if you want. Two things you smell, 580 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 3: which is often hard for me, and one thing you taste, 581 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 3: and just like you go five, four, three two. 582 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 2: One, Yeah, no, I love that one. I think it's 583 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 2: I think it's so good. 584 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: I've done that many times in my room when I 585 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: was alone and I felt I was scared or whatever, 586 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: I would do that one a lot. I also to 587 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: my therapist, she said, uh, when you when you don't 588 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: give it power, Like for me, usually I would hold 589 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: it in and my my best friends wouldn't even know 590 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: that I'm having a panic attack. But she's like start saying, like, hey, 591 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: I'm having a panic attack right now. She's like, you 592 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: give it less power. And that's been something that's been 593 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: helpful because then people can either you know, try to 594 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: be like, oh, like is there anything, just to know 595 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: that like you're not alone in the situation, that someone 596 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: they may not understand what you're going through, but they 597 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: can at least be there for you one hundred percent. 598 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 3: That is so. And I didn't learn that until twenty 599 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 3: twenty two. So I'd been dealing with panic for twenty 600 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 3: two years before I finally admitted to someone in the 601 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 3: moment and this was like doing an interview. It was 602 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 3: the first time I've ever had in a panic attack 603 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 3: just talking to someone, and I just I just come 604 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 3: from a cognitive behavioral therapist. It's like, just as you said, 605 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 3: you know, you take you defang it by naming it, 606 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm sorry, I just need a second. 607 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 3: I'm having a panic attack. I've never had this before. 608 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 3: And then like five seconds later, I'm like, oh, okay, 609 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 3: I'm back. Yeah, I'm so powerful. 610 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah I love that. 611 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 3: The last full on panic attack I had in May 612 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: of twenty two, so yeah, like that's your one hundred 613 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: percent right, and that is so powerful. I'm kind of curious, like, 614 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 3: how often do you experience panic? 615 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: I don't as much anymore. Mine now is just more 616 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: of the fear of things like when I go travel 617 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: and when I'm not with my kids. I have more 618 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: anxiety when I travel. 619 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 3: Now. 620 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: I just had a third so you know, and older 621 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: and hormones and so I'm trying to level it back out. 622 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: I've been off medicine now for a few years, and 623 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: I was on for nineteen years or something, but I 624 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: was on lexebro Okay, yeah, but I got off of 625 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: it and you know, doing all the tips and tricks, 626 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,479 Speaker 1: and truly was when I got divorced that my anxiety stopped. 627 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: But then now it's come back in just different areas 628 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: of my life. But I've been managing to can just 629 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: control it better and feel I feel pretty good of 630 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: where it's at right now, it's just more of the 631 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: unknown fear stuff. But you know, that's where I just 632 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: go back to him, like, all right, what is the 633 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: worst that can happen? And why even you know, put 634 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: that on such a beautiful memory that will be you know, 635 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: had in a couple months, or you know, like I 636 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: just don't need to do that because the reality is 637 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,959 Speaker 1: it's probably going to be fine. You know, my kids 638 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: will be fine, We will be fine, and it's you know, 639 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: and kind of take it by the day, not by 640 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: the future totally. But I do have one very sidebar 641 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: question then we'll wrap it up because I just and 642 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: you probably hate this question. You don't even have to 643 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: answer it if you don't want. But I've always been 644 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: so interested to ask a news correspondent person what their 645 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: thoughts on the morning show is and how accurate it is, 646 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: Like do you watch it or are you like I 647 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: hate it. 648 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 3: It's not I've never watched it. Okay, I've heard obviously 649 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 3: a lot about it, but I've. 650 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: Never sure Okay, just because you're like I don't want 651 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: to see what I live or you just the dramatization 652 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: of it, or. 653 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 3: This is going to sound really obnoxious. But I just 654 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 3: don't watch a lot of TV. It's like the cop 655 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 3: kids go Barefoot. Sure, so we watch very very very 656 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 3: little TV. And it's like, you know, I've got two kids, 657 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 3: I've got this insane job with weird hours, and so 658 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 3: like I put the kids to sleep and often I like, 659 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: I read a page of a book and I'm out, 660 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 3: I'm boring. So it's okay, it's like it anyway. But yeah, 661 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 3: so I watch it. But yeah, but okay, I think 662 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 3: there is I mean, having heard a lot about it, 663 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 3: you know, there are certain elements that are true. There 664 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 3: are certain elements that are are not, that are dramatized, 665 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 3: and sure there's a lot of drama. 666 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 2: It is a lot of drama. 667 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 3: People people have drama exactly. 668 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: Well, Matt, thank you so much for coming on the show. 669 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: Everyone go get no time to panic. How I curb 670 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: my anxiety and congret a lifetime of panic attacks, Matt, 671 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much. 672 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 3: Was fun.