Speaker 1: Last week we had doctor Snowden on the show and
Speaker 1: she talked to us all about nuclear energy, and it
Speaker 1: feels like it was right on time because those gas
Speaker 1: prices had just skyrocketed, so we need to continue focusing
Speaker 1: on natural resources and ways to power our lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I thought, Okay, we got that under control.
Speaker 2: I feel like I know what's going on with energy.
Speaker 2: But then it felt like all along my timeline all
Speaker 2: in the news. Another natural resource that I hadn't considered
Speaker 2: was popping up. NASA's talking about making a new alloy.
Speaker 2: Biden was talking about the infrastructure plan only using US steel,
Speaker 2: and I was like, do we have enough of that?
Speaker 2: Where is the steal coming from? Is Pittsburgh still doing that?
Speaker 2: I'm concerned. And then not only is Elon Musk talking
Speaker 2: about buying Twitter, Tesla's also in the news for using
Speaker 2: manganese as the metal in their new battery cell they're
Speaker 2: trying to work on. I'm TT and I'm Zakiyah and
Speaker 2: from Spotify. This is stove Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs podcast,
Speaker 2: a weekly podcast that makes this hardcore science, pop culture
Speaker 2: and a healthy dose of friendship. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: conversation about natural resources, and we see those gas prices
Speaker 2: sky rocketing, and some folks are saying we should pay
Speaker 2: closer attention to metals. Yeah, mercury and tuda mercury and
Speaker 2: retrograde nickels nowhere to be found. I mean, it's all bad.
Speaker 1: So this week we're talking all about metals. We're figuring
Speaker 1: out what constitutes a metal. So how is it classified
Speaker 1: and where we see metals and not just in the
Speaker 1: stuff that we use in day to day that we
Speaker 1: know about, but some of the ways that metals are
Speaker 1: used that we don't know about.
Speaker 2: All right, let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 1: So what do we know?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the concern about metals isn't new. I
Speaker 2: remember when people were stealing like copper pipes. I remember that.
Speaker 1: I do remember that.
Speaker 2: Which told me something was up with at least copper,
Speaker 2: right is.
Speaker 1: It because copper is expensive and people feel like they
Speaker 1: can resell it?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: There was just so many questions swirling around that. But
Speaker 1: it was a very interesting time to be alive. I
Speaker 1: think another thing that we know is that metal is important,
Speaker 1: that we need it for a lot of different things
Speaker 1: in our tech and a lot of engineering applications. And
Speaker 1: in biological applications. So what do we want to know?
Speaker 2: I know, I want to know when we consider all
Speaker 2: this stuff, Like you just said the gas price is
Speaker 2: going up, considering our natural resources and what's going on
Speaker 2: with the planet. Metals are coming out of the earth,
Speaker 2: So how are we looking on metals? Are we on track?
Speaker 2: Do we need to cut back?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Where are we?
Speaker 1: What I want to know is more of the biology
Speaker 1: side of metals, because I think I understand metals when
Speaker 1: it comes to engineering and structures and the importance there,
Speaker 1: But I don't really know metals when it comes to biology.
Speaker 1: So I'll be really interested to hear more about that.
Speaker 2: And I think, even though I know the metals are
Speaker 2: important for technology, than what like, are we subbing them out?
Speaker 2: Are we using a variety of metals? Are there some
Speaker 2: metals that we just always use for tech stuff? Like?
Speaker 2: Where are we on that? Okay, let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 2: Our guest for today's episode is doctor Kate Butner. Kate
Speaker 2: is a friend of the show and our friend in
Speaker 2: real life.
Speaker 3: I'm Kate Butner. I am a bioin organic chemist in
Speaker 3: the chemistry department at Guttysburg College.
Speaker 1: Okay, so first things first, what is an inorganic chemist.
Speaker 1: I know, when we hear the word organic, we usually
Speaker 1: like whole foods, But this type of inorganic has to
Speaker 1: do with the makeup of a chemical compound. So organic
Speaker 1: means carbon based compounds and inorganic is non carbon based compounds.
Speaker 1: Kate is an inorganic chemist who focuses on metals, so
Speaker 1: we asked her to help us understand how common metals are,
Speaker 1: why we should care about them, and what are the
Speaker 1: defining features of metals.
Speaker 3: When you generally are thinking about metals, you're thinking about
Speaker 3: probably metals in bulk.
Speaker 2: What Kate means, what she says in bulk is that
Speaker 2: when we're interacting with metals in our day to day
Speaker 2: lives like jewelry, cutlery, and appliances, we're seeing the end
Speaker 2: product of a compound that was once very, very tiny.
Speaker 2: So the goal we see in jay Z's grill looks different.
Speaker 1: Well, you can have pure gold in your grill, but
Speaker 1: for other metals like steel, steel is not something that
Speaker 1: you just you know, open up the ground you find steel.
Speaker 1: Steel is actually iron that's been treated with carbon to
Speaker 1: get this really strong material. So steel is an alloy,
Speaker 1: not just one singular metal, and alloy is a combination
Speaker 1: of two metals to create another. When we're talking about alloys,
Speaker 1: that's usually in the bulk. That's how we get steel, sterling, silver,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the different metal compositions that we
Speaker 1: know and love today. But on the opposite end of
Speaker 1: that spectrum are really really tiny particles like nanoparticles. I
Speaker 1: worked with nano particles when I was in graduate school,
Speaker 1: and when I was working with nanoparticle gold at that scale,
Speaker 1: when the gold particles are so tiny, when it's suspended
Speaker 1: in a liquid, it almost gives us pinkish purple color.
Speaker 1: So from nanoparticle to bulk materials that we're using, the
Speaker 1: physical properties can change in the way that we interact
Speaker 1: with those properties can change as well.
Speaker 2: I think there are other examples of metals behaving in
Speaker 2: ways that we aren't aware of.
Speaker 3: So those are things like sodium, which if you're thinking
Speaker 3: about sodium metal and you take a hunk of sodium
Speaker 3: metal and throw it in water, it will catch on fire.
Speaker 1: That reminds me of Lab twenty seven. Here comes the
Speaker 1: boom where we talked all about fireworks. So sodium is
Speaker 1: one of the elements that's used in fireworks to help
Speaker 1: give them their color. Sodium makes orange, copper makes green,
Speaker 1: strontium makes red. So it all makes sense.
Speaker 3: But sodium is everywhere.
Speaker 1: It's your table salt.
Speaker 3: And so you have sodium and potassium that you're eating
Speaker 3: every day and are important for you living.
Speaker 1: Did you know that sodium and potassium or metals.
Speaker 2: You know, it makes sense based on what we know
Speaker 2: about the periodic table, but I don't think of them
Speaker 2: in that form from a biological perspective. I think of
Speaker 2: them always in a compound with some other element, like
Speaker 2: sodium and chloride, giving me sodium chloride, which is salt.
Speaker 2: You know, So did I know? Is it buried somewhere
Speaker 2: deep in my head? I don't think of it that way.
Speaker 1: Well, you know our cereal is not catching on fires,
Speaker 1: so we know it's very very different.
Speaker 2: When I think about metals, I'm thinking about steel and
Speaker 2: titanium and copper, and I'm thinking back to those early
Speaker 2: principles I learned that probably are the most primitive concepts
Speaker 2: in material science. I know you know it way better
Speaker 2: than me.
Speaker 3: T T.
Speaker 2: And I think you know I haven't had to look
Speaker 2: back and think about the periodic table in this way
Speaker 2: so I didn't really appreciate just how many metals are
Speaker 2: in it.
Speaker 1: On the periodic table, metals make up over two thirds
Speaker 1: of the elements.
Speaker 2: So now we understand a little bit more about what
Speaker 2: metals are. Now we want to talk about where they are.
Speaker 3: There's different levels of abundance in the Earth's crust versus
Speaker 3: in the water, versus in like the human body, because
Speaker 3: different elements are differently stabilized in different environments, and so
Speaker 3: they're going to be in lower concentrations in the oceans
Speaker 3: versus in the Earth's crust. And so lots of the
Speaker 3: metals that we find are in mineral forms, in lots
Speaker 3: of the rocks and minerals that are everywhere. And so
Speaker 3: if you look at what elements are most abundant, iron
Speaker 3: is the most abundant thing that you probably think of
Speaker 3: as a metal. Titanium is also quite abundant, just one
Speaker 3: of the reasons that we try to use it, and
Speaker 3: so iron and titanium are the most common. There's also
Speaker 3: lots of magnesium and calcium and sodium potassium, and there's
Speaker 3: also lots of aluminum.
Speaker 1: The two most abundant elements in the Earth's crust are oxygen,
Speaker 1: and silicon. So oxygen makes up about forty six point
Speaker 1: one percent and silicon is twenty eight point two percent.
Speaker 1: But those aren't metals. Silicon has some metallic properties, but
Speaker 1: not real, real metals. It's a semiconductor that makes so
Speaker 1: much sense when we think about it. Semiconductor h partially conducting.
Speaker 1: Semiconductor materials are elements that are partially conducting. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: when you hear the word semiconductor, that means that they
Speaker 1: are using those specific materials in that device. The most
Speaker 1: abundant metal found in the Earth's crust is aluminium, and
Speaker 1: that makes up eight point twenty three percent. Iron is
Speaker 1: five point sixty three percent, and it's the most mined
Speaker 1: because it's essential for steel production. Calcium is four point
Speaker 1: one five percent, Magnesium is two point three three percent,
Speaker 1: potassium is two point zero nine percent, in titanium is
Speaker 1: zero point five six five percent, and the rest of
Speaker 1: the metals, they make up point four eight percent of
Speaker 1: the Earth's crust. And notice how we didn't say anything
Speaker 1: like gold, silver, copper, nickel, platinum, or any of those
Speaker 1: other precious metals. Precious metals are metals that are rare.
Speaker 1: They're naturally occurring, but they have high economic value as well,
Speaker 1: and that's because although they're the most sought after metals,
Speaker 1: they make up less than point zero three percent of
Speaker 1: the Earth's crust.
Speaker 2: Doctor Buner explained that the abundance doesn't always correlate to
Speaker 2: what is most used, and metals are a non renewable resource.
Speaker 2: What we have is all we got.
Speaker 3: At some point, we're going to run out of precious metals,
Speaker 3: so there are lots of research fronts looking to move
Speaker 3: chemistry away from using precious metals and into using things
Speaker 3: like iron and titanium and vanadium.
Speaker 2: Okay, so now that you've laid it out, you know,
Speaker 2: just looking for something shiny doesn't always indicate that it
Speaker 2: is metal, and the amount available to us is variable
Speaker 2: depending on which element we're talking about. But how do
Speaker 2: we know for sure that something is metallic?
Speaker 1: Well, one great way to figure out if something is
Speaker 1: metallic is using our handy dandy periodic table. Like we've
Speaker 1: said in previous episodes, the periodic table is not random.
Speaker 1: It's arranged in a very specific way, and an element's
Speaker 1: position on the periodic table can give us clues. And
Speaker 1: this holds true for metals. Okay, so pull out your
Speaker 1: periodic table. Right now, we'll pause and wait for you
Speaker 1: to pull up a tab for you to look at it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So you have your periodic table, and going from the
Speaker 1: top right to the bottom left, there is an increase
Speaker 1: in metallic character of elements. So it goes from non
Speaker 1: metals in the top right. So that's helium, neon, argon
Speaker 1: and all them boron, silicon, germanium, arsenic, and antimony are
Speaker 1: all what are called metaloids. Metaloids are in between conductive
Speaker 1: and non conductive, so we call them semiconductors, and you've
Speaker 1: probably heard that word before, but we'll talk about semiconductors
Speaker 1: more in an upcoming lab. Sure you stay tuned. And
Speaker 1: as you get down to the bottom and left of
Speaker 1: the periodic table, everything to the left of the metaloids
Speaker 1: is a metal, and the farther left you go, the
Speaker 1: more metallic character the element has.
Speaker 2: So tt I feel like you've really helped me understand this.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at the periodic table. Everything to the right,
Speaker 2: those are like gases and other non metals. There's this
Speaker 2: diagonal stripe and those are things that are in between
Speaker 2: non metal and metal, and so they're semi and you're
Speaker 2: calling those metaloids and that's that diagonal stripe to the
Speaker 2: left of that stripe, which is Yes, the bulk of
Speaker 2: things on this periodic table, those are metals. And the
Speaker 2: more left you are, the further Beyonce pushed you, the
Speaker 2: more metallic character you have. And those metallic characters are
Speaker 2: being able to conduct electricity, being able to conduct heat,
Speaker 2: having a luster, so on and so on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, should we rename the periodic table to Beyonce's periodic table? Mm?
Speaker 2: Where would Sasha Fierce be on the day? What happened
Speaker 2: to her? We haven't seen her in san Bring her back? Okay?
Speaker 2: So I feel like we have a really good grasp
Speaker 2: on what metal is and the different kinds of metals.
Speaker 2: So I think what we want to hit now is
Speaker 2: like why should we care? Right?
Speaker 1: Metals are used in every aspect of our lives, Like,
Speaker 1: if you just stop and look around you right now,
Speaker 1: you're likely touching or being touched by metal in some way.
Speaker 1: And metal has the ability to take on so many
Speaker 1: different forms depending on the treatment. So like, you know,
Speaker 1: the metal that you might have in a button on
Speaker 1: your clothes is different from the metal in a soda can,
Speaker 1: or different from the metal that's supporting a bridge, and
Speaker 1: it's all because of whatever chemical processes or heat treatments
Speaker 1: or anything in between that metal is put through to
Speaker 1: give it those specific properties.
Speaker 3: When we think about metals that are important in technology,
Speaker 3: there are lots of different metals that are used in batteries,
Speaker 3: and there's also lots of metals used in catalytic converters
Speaker 3: in cars, and so that's a big push.
Speaker 1: So in your car, a catalytic converter converts toxins into
Speaker 1: less harmful byproducts like water, vapor, and carbon dioxide. And
Speaker 1: catalytic converters actually use three precious metals, platinum, rodium, and palladium,
Speaker 1: which is why a lot of people get their catalytic
Speaker 1: converters stolen from their cars and why they're so expensive
Speaker 1: to replace. One application we want to draw attention to
Speaker 1: is tech because a property unique to metals like zakia
Speaker 1: you mentioned is their electrical conductivity. The reason why metal
Speaker 1: conducts electricity so much better than non metals is because
Speaker 1: their electrons can move freely between atoms. So, if you
Speaker 1: remember from last week's episode, an atom, the nucleus is
Speaker 1: made up of neutrons and protons and then spinning around
Speaker 1: that nucleus is electrons and metals they can move all around,
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what you need to create current, which
Speaker 1: is what we use for electricity. So those electrons are
Speaker 1: moving around and they provide power for light, power, for
Speaker 1: your computer power, for anything that requires electricity. You need
Speaker 1: electrons moving and metals do that really well. And one
Speaker 1: of those metals that's commonly used is copper.
Speaker 3: And we know that copper is used for all sorts
Speaker 3: of things in copper wire and for transport of electronics
Speaker 3: sort of stuff, and so those are really important in
Speaker 3: technology in ways that I very rarely think about.
Speaker 2: Also, aluminum and nickel are used in a lot of
Speaker 2: semiconductor chips and batteries. Now that dural cell copper top
Speaker 2: makes sense exactly.
Speaker 1: There's another part of the periodic table that we didn't
Speaker 1: talk about yet, but it's a great time to bring
Speaker 1: it back up. So okay, go back to your tab
Speaker 1: that has the periodic table, and if you look at
Speaker 1: the bottom, you should see two rows that are detached
Speaker 1: from the rest of the table. And those are called
Speaker 1: rare earth metals. And they're called this not just because
Speaker 1: there isn't a lot of them, but because they're extremely
Speaker 1: difficult to mind. But they're really great to use because
Speaker 1: they have these really great properties, Like they are used
Speaker 1: as catalysts, they're used in a lot of electrical and
Speaker 1: magnetic and luminescent devices.
Speaker 2: All those properties sound great and we've been using them
Speaker 2: tt So when we think about the explosion of technology
Speaker 2: in general, the invention of the cell phone, the computer,
Speaker 2: laptops over the last twenty years, I'm sure with that
Speaker 2: explosion of products, there has to have been an increasing
Speaker 2: demand on those elements exactly. And then rechargeable batteries that's
Speaker 2: like a new thing relatively to you know, our world.
Speaker 2: Rechargeable batteries are new and they are made with rare
Speaker 2: earth compounds, and so the demand for batteries that recharge
Speaker 2: goes up, like as we have these.
Speaker 1: New inventions like the cell phone and the computer, and
Speaker 1: also with electrical vehicles. So you know, now electric cars
Speaker 1: are becoming more and more of a thing. I've been
Speaker 1: seeing a lot more teslas, a lot more hybrid cars
Speaker 1: on the road. Those batteries that are powering those electric
Speaker 1: cars are made of a lot of rare earth and nickel,
Speaker 1: and so they're super important to keep pushing us into
Speaker 1: this technological age pushing us forward so we can move
Speaker 1: away from fossil fuels and use electricity to power our lives.
Speaker 2: This is such a good point because now you know,
Speaker 2: it makes me think about this tradeoff. Just last week
Speaker 2: we talked about nuclear energy with doctor Snowden, and this
Speaker 2: is a perfect example of these types of trade offs.
Speaker 2: So on one hand, you're reducing the use of non
Speaker 2: renewables like gas, right and oil, but on the other hand,
Speaker 2: you're increasing the demand for rare earth metals to build
Speaker 2: the electric cars that we think are solving the other problem. Yeah,
Speaker 2: vicious vicious cycle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, such a good point. Another downside to rare earth
Speaker 1: metals is that it's really difficult to get rare earths
Speaker 1: out of the Earth, and so it costs a lot
Speaker 1: of money, and it's inefficient, and some of the byproducts
Speaker 1: of mining rare earth are toxic materials because you're also
Speaker 1: pulling up uranium as you're pulling up these rare earth
Speaker 1: metals that we want to use, and as we know
Speaker 1: from the nuclear episode, uranium is not something you really
Speaker 1: want to be around like that. Another issue with rare
Speaker 1: earth is that they're not only not abundant in the
Speaker 1: Earth's crust, but it's not like there's an even distribution
Speaker 1: of rare earths all over the Earth. Most rare earths
Speaker 1: are in China, and China produces about ninety percent of
Speaker 1: the supply, which means that they control the industry.
Speaker 2: So basically, there's no free lunch when it comes to
Speaker 2: earth metals. They have all these great properties, but there
Speaker 2: are a lot of other aspects to kind of wade
Speaker 2: through when we're considering how we get them.
Speaker 1: It goes back to what doctor Snowden was saying in
Speaker 1: the last episode, is that there are risks to everything,
Speaker 1: and those are things you just have to weigh out
Speaker 1: because it will help us if we're able to move
Speaker 1: move towards using electricity to power our lives. But there
Speaker 1: are some trade offs that we're trying to reconcile so
Speaker 1: that we can make sure that the advances that we're
Speaker 1: making aren't biting us in the butt later.
Speaker 2: So, considering the uneven distribution of metals, I would imagine
Speaker 2: that that uneven distribution is subject to a lot of
Speaker 2: our geopolitical influences right in the world right now. And
Speaker 2: so I know recently I've been seeing a lot about
Speaker 2: a nickel shortage in the news as we consider the
Speaker 2: war between Russia and Ukraine. So we asked Kate to
Speaker 2: tell us what we need to know about nickel.
Speaker 3: I think the thing that loss of nickel is most
Speaker 3: worried about because it's used in batteries. Nickel hydride batteries
Speaker 3: are used in cars, and so I think that's where
Speaker 3: the biggest worry comes from with a run on nickel supplies.
Speaker 3: There are lots of different places where there are nickel minds.
Speaker 1: Right, So nickel is really really important when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about batteries for electric vehicles and pretty much all batteries
Speaker 1: that are rechargeable. As the battery research advances, they want
Speaker 1: more and more nickel. In batteries. You have a cathode
Speaker 1: and an anode, and the cathode at this point is
Speaker 1: about eighty percent nickel, and so we need nickel very badly.
Speaker 3: If you lose a significant percentage of that, then it's
Speaker 3: going to be a lot harder to keep making nickel
Speaker 3: hydride batteries at the level that's needed to keep producing cars.
Speaker 1: And this is a problem because Russia produces twenty percent
Speaker 1: of the world's highest purity nickel.
Speaker 2: So Russia invaded Ukraine on February twenty fourth, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: and on that day the cost of nickel per ton
Speaker 2: was twenty four thousand, seven hundred and sixteen dollars. Now
Speaker 2: that's twenty four thousand, seven hundred and sixteen dollars. Stay
Speaker 2: with me on March eighth, and remember February only had
Speaker 2: twenty eight days. Baby on March eighth, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: nickel was eighty thousand dollars per ton. That's a big
Speaker 2: deal because as we advance with technology and the needs
Speaker 2: for electric vehicles, more and more nickel is required. So
Speaker 2: if the cost of nicolas so high, it may mean
Speaker 2: that the cost to manufacturer the battery is super high.
Speaker 2: So now we're looking at access to electric vehicles, which
Speaker 2: can reduce other costs and can reduce other impacts being
Speaker 2: cost prohibitive, even more cost prohibitive than they already are. Right,
Speaker 2: so that electric car goes from being just a little
Speaker 2: bit expensive to only Bill Gates can afford it. Okay,
Speaker 2: So doctor Buttner has taken us through what metals are,
Speaker 2: where they are, and what they're used for in tech.
Speaker 2: But when we come back, we're going to talk about
Speaker 2: metals in the biological space.
Speaker 1: We're back.
Speaker 2: We're talking to doctor Kate Butner all about metals. But
Speaker 2: before we jump in next week, we're talking to you
Speaker 2: about maternal health with Simon Taate.
Speaker 1: Let's get back to the lab. Now that we have
Speaker 1: gotten the load down on metals in tech, Zekiah, you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to hold my hand through metals in biology.
Speaker 1: You know this is so interesting because when I think
Speaker 1: about this, you know, you blew my mind. You said, Hey,
Speaker 1: did you know sodium in potasium were metals? And I'm like, uh,
Speaker 1: I think about sodium potassium so much from a biological perspective,
Speaker 1: and I think we have to level set first. Everybody
Speaker 1: should know we need metals in our body to live.
Speaker 1: And if you're a Dope Labs listener, you already know this.
Speaker 1: If we think back to our lab with doctor Alice
Speaker 1: Lichtenstein where she talked about nutrition and the vitamin and
Speaker 1: micronutrient requirements, we already knew that metals were important. So
Speaker 1: I think the first thing is understanding that sometimes metals
Speaker 1: get a bad rep in the biological context. And there's
Speaker 1: something I was reading from plant scientists. So the botanists
Speaker 1: are here informing us, and they're saying, listen, you really
Speaker 1: got to think about metals in context. Too few and
Speaker 1: you have nutritional deficiencies. Too many metals, and then you
Speaker 1: have toxicity. I once accidentally swallowed a piece of aluminum
Speaker 1: for when I was in summer camp.
Speaker 2: You're still here, so you were in the sweet spot
Speaker 2: of metal homeostasis.
Speaker 1: It was on my apple sauce lid, and I was
Speaker 1: trying to open it with my mouth and I pulled
Speaker 1: it off and then I just inhaled and it went
Speaker 1: down my throat and I think about that piece of
Speaker 1: aluminum pretty regularly.
Speaker 2: Well, the good news is that your body needs a
Speaker 2: lot of metals.
Speaker 1: It's always been my body of favor. I ate the
Speaker 1: apple sauce too.
Speaker 2: So now we understand that there is the concentration that
Speaker 2: we need of various different metals for us to have
Speaker 2: proper bodily function. And so even though nickel and these
Speaker 2: other metals are important for technologies, they're also important for
Speaker 2: our bodies.
Speaker 1: Okay, So where are we getting the metal from.
Speaker 2: That's a good question, and most of it is coming
Speaker 2: from our foods are in plants, Metals are in other
Speaker 2: animals that eat plants, right, and in places where people
Speaker 2: aren't able to eat foods that are rich in metals.
Speaker 2: They often have to fortify foods. So metals are so
Speaker 2: important that we add them to our food products. So
Speaker 2: if you think about fortified cereals, Raisin brand is an example.
Speaker 2: It has iron. What about cocoa puffs? Probably not. I
Speaker 2: won't say that. I won't say that it's not good
Speaker 2: for you. I don't know that. I just know it
Speaker 2: has cocoa and that's not a metal.
Speaker 1: I'll check the periodic.
Speaker 2: There are some metals that are super important from a
Speaker 2: nutritional perspective that we can think of immediately, like calcium,
Speaker 2: which is important for your teeth and bones, right, Iron
Speaker 2: which is important for transporting oxygen, and we can talk
Speaker 2: about that in a little bit more detail. Magnesium, potassium,
Speaker 2: but you get those things. Calcium is naturally in yogurt
Speaker 2: and milk and fish and in juices that get fortified
Speaker 2: with calcium, right because they know kids are drinking juices
Speaker 2: and they need a lot of calcium as they are
Speaker 2: growing and building their teeth, and so we add calcium
Speaker 2: to the food product.
Speaker 3: You have lots of iron in your body that's carrying
Speaker 3: your oxygen around in proteins like hemoglobin, and you guys
Speaker 3: talked about that in the episode on the Impossible Meats,
Speaker 3: where that color change is coming from that iron in
Speaker 3: your proteins. And so that iron is really important because
Speaker 3: it's what's binding to oxygen and it's what's letting you
Speaker 3: have respiration, and so in biological systems, iron is very important,
Speaker 3: like we already talked about for transporting, and you have
Speaker 3: different proteins that very carefully control your iron and move
Speaker 3: your iron alter your body.
Speaker 2: Right, iron is very important for carrying oxygen. Seventy percent
Speaker 2: of your body's iron is found in your red blood cells.
Speaker 2: What Yeah, that are in your blood and in your muscle.
Speaker 2: So if you think about hemoglobin, that's iron carrying oxygen
Speaker 2: from your lungs to your various tissues in your body
Speaker 2: via blood, So via those red blood cells. Wow, okay.
Speaker 2: And similarly iron is involved in your muscles, so myoglobin
Speaker 2: it's a accepting oxygen in the muscles and storing it.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: So it's super important for living because you need oxygen
Speaker 2: to all those tissues.
Speaker 1: Right, So is that part of the reason maybe that
Speaker 1: when you are iron deficient you might feel weak and
Speaker 1: lacking energy because your body's not getting all of that
Speaker 1: oxygen that the iron is supposed to be transporting all
Speaker 1: over your body.
Speaker 2: You got it.
Speaker 3: There are things like manganese that's really important in lots
Speaker 3: of different areas, and so manganese is important in creating
Speaker 3: oxygen in the oxygen evolving cluster. In plants when they're
Speaker 3: doing photosynthesis. You need metals to carry out photosynthesis.
Speaker 2: And I think that's really important. We've been talking about
Speaker 2: human health, but remember biological systems. That's across everything, So
Speaker 2: plants need metals too.
Speaker 3: There's things like calcium that you probably don't really think
Speaker 3: of in its metallic form, but it's a metal, and
Speaker 3: you know that that's really important in your bones and
Speaker 3: you have these calcium phosphate things for biomineralization. So your
Speaker 3: biology is creating minerals to make your tea than your bones,
Speaker 3: and to make shells for sea animals and all those
Speaker 3: sorts of things, because crustaceans are important. And there's also
Speaker 3: things like zinc is really important in lots of different proteins,
Speaker 3: both to just hold the proteins in the form the
Speaker 3: structure that they need to have, as well as to
Speaker 3: carry out catalytic reactions. So to make sure that all
Speaker 3: your biological processes can happen.
Speaker 2: And so now when we think about things that are
Speaker 2: really important, like the genome, when we want to understand
Speaker 2: all the genes, there is a study of the metalone
Speaker 2: to understand how metals are distributed in different cellular compartments
Speaker 2: in the body. Wow, in biological systems.
Speaker 1: I feel like our episode on vitamins and nutrients really
Speaker 1: gave me a peek into how important these vitamins are.
Speaker 1: But when we're thinking about them as metals and their
Speaker 1: roles in our body, I had no idea that there
Speaker 1: was the metalon So now so I have a lot
Speaker 1: more questions, and one of them being if we have
Speaker 1: so much metal in our bodies that help us. Are
Speaker 1: there metals that are used for medicinal purposes?
Speaker 2: Yes, metals have been used to treat disease for a
Speaker 2: long time. Okay, well before what we consider you know,
Speaker 2: modern Western medicine. The Egyptian and Chinese doctors are like,
Speaker 2: been there, done that. That's the first footnote. Okay, moving
Speaker 2: forward in time, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, we
Speaker 2: started seeing metals being used as anti cancer drugs, and
Speaker 2: so we saw a big boom in this in the
Speaker 2: sixties in metal based cancer drugs that were based on
Speaker 2: some of the platinum group metals, in platinum group metal
Speaker 2: complexes like cisplatin, carboplatin, oxalo platin, and then we're starting
Speaker 2: to see other compounds like gold, titanium, copper, cobalt, vanadium,
Speaker 2: all of those are starting to get used or being
Speaker 2: explored as anti cancer therapeutics. So Ttu really raised a
Speaker 2: good point saying can metals be used to help us
Speaker 2: because we use them in our bodies. Because they're used
Speaker 2: in different biological systems, they're also being used by things
Speaker 2: that sometimes harmless, So you can almost weaponize metals against bacteria.
Speaker 2: Oh really Yeah. One of those metals that's really useful
Speaker 2: for this is silver.
Speaker 3: Silver is definitely known to have antimicrobial properties, and so
Speaker 3: it's in lots of clothing. There are studies that look
Speaker 3: at putting it in dental implants to keep and so
Speaker 3: we do a lab in one of my classes using
Speaker 3: bacteria that Zechia collected and studied to see how silver
Speaker 3: complexes can inhibit growth of bacteria. I know that silver
Speaker 3: is used as nanoparticles often, and so there are silver
Speaker 3: nanoparticles embedded in lots of fabrics now to try and
Speaker 3: make them not smell bad in your workout clothes when
Speaker 3: you have bacteria growing from lots of sweat.
Speaker 2: So, Kate told us a lot about all these metals,
Speaker 2: but I learned from you more about metals in a
Speaker 2: technological context.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I learned a lot about the biology from you.
Speaker 2: And even though I thought it was important only know
Speaker 2: half of the information. Now I feel like we've really
Speaker 2: got to get this metal thing figured out. And that's
Speaker 2: one of the things that Cake's working on in her lab,
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how we can leverage the metals
Speaker 2: that are actually more abundant. So that was our question.
Speaker 2: Is there some type of shift to rely on one
Speaker 2: metal versus another? Can't we find good substitutes.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of push to move towards more abundant
Speaker 3: metals and more environmentally friendly metals. I think on industrial
Speaker 3: scales that comes a little slower, and it comes often
Speaker 3: from regulations requiring those things, and until those things exist industrially,
Speaker 3: that's less pushed for because they want to do the
Speaker 3: thing that's most efficient, and so using a costly metal
Speaker 3: isn't as big of a deal because they can find
Speaker 3: that money and do it, and so we work with
Speaker 3: specifically titanium and vanadium. So what we're doing is looking
Speaker 3: at the ways that nature has protected iron and other
Speaker 3: hydrolysis prone metals from reacting with water and kept their reactivity,
Speaker 3: and so we want to use those same things to
Speaker 3: get the reactivity that we want from titanium and vanadium
Speaker 3: and protect them from unwanted reactions with water.
Speaker 2: And that feels so important. Tt It's important in so
Speaker 2: many ways, Like you were saying, we have to really
Speaker 2: consider this as we continue to think about advancing technologies
Speaker 2: and the things that we're currently relying on that need
Speaker 2: these rare metals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because, like we said earlier, all the metal we
Speaker 1: have is all the metal we've got people, So we've
Speaker 1: got to figure out a way to use it efficiently,
Speaker 1: and not just efficiently like oh, we're using a specific
Speaker 1: amount and it gets its the most output, but also
Speaker 1: getting it efficiently, selling it in a way that is
Speaker 1: efficient and cost efficient and everything in between. Because it's
Speaker 1: clear that metal is that girl.
Speaker 2: She's that girl.
Speaker 1: All right, y'all, it's time for one thing, Nikiya, what
Speaker 1: is your one thing this week?
Speaker 2: My one thing this week is a new docu series
Speaker 2: about an NBA hopeful determined to take control of his
Speaker 2: journey to the NBA. It's called The Long Game, Bigger
Speaker 2: Than Basketball, and it's on Apple TV Plus. Well, my
Speaker 2: one thing is also related to sports, and I'm not
Speaker 2: even really a huge.
Speaker 1: Sportsman, but it's Winning Time on HBO Max. It is
Speaker 1: so beautifully done. It follows the story of Magic Johnson
Speaker 1: from when he graduated from Michigan State and started with
Speaker 1: the Lakers. It is art. It is seriously art. I
Speaker 1: really enjoy the production quality. Everything is just chef's kiss
Speaker 1: and it really pulls you in. I love the storytelling.
Speaker 1: They're doing an awesome job and I am there every
Speaker 1: single week ready for the next episode. That's it for
Speaker 1: Lab sixty one. What you think? We love hearing from you,
Speaker 1: So make sure you give us a call at two
Speaker 1: zero two five six seven seven zero two eight and
Speaker 1: tell us what you thought. Or you can call and
Speaker 1: tell us about a LAB that you think that we
Speaker 1: should do. We love hearing from you, so give us
Speaker 1: a call at two zero two five six seven seven
Speaker 1: zero two eight. And don't forget. There's so much more
Speaker 1: for you to dig into on our website. There'll be
Speaker 1: a cheat cheat for today's lab. Additional links and resources
Speaker 1: in the show notes. Plus, you can sign up for
Speaker 1: our newsletter check it out at Dope lastpodcast dot com.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our friend and guest expert, doctor Kate Buttner.
Speaker 1: You can follow Kate's lab on Twitter at Buttner Lab.
Speaker 1: That's b U E T T n E r.
Speaker 2: L A B.
Speaker 1: And you can find us on Twitter and Instagram at
Speaker 1: Dope Labs Podcast.
Speaker 2: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore T.
Speaker 1: S h O, and you can find Zakiya at z
Speaker 1: said So. Dope Labs is a Spotify original production from
Speaker 1: Mega Owned Media Group. Our producers are Jenny Rattlett Mast
Speaker 1: and Lydia Smith of wave Runner Studios. Our associate producer
Speaker 1: from Mega oh Media is Brianna Garrett. Editing in sound
Speaker 1: design by Rob Smerciak, mixing by Hannes Brown. Original music
Speaker 1: composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugier from Spotify,
Speaker 1: Executive producer Corin Gilliard and creative producer Miguel Contreras.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Jasmine afifikmu Ilolia,
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