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Speaker 1: Hey, you may have noticed this past Saturday, you got

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Speaker 1: an extra episode of Stuff you should know. That's why,

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Speaker 1: as case selects. That's right, it was not a mistake.

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Speaker 1: What we decided to do here after nine plus years

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Speaker 1: is um you know. Maybe you don't know that we

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Speaker 1: have nine plus episodes. Uh, so we're gonna start throwing

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Speaker 1: out all I don't want to call it a rerun. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a hand selected curated episode by us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a classic if you will that. Joshua, pick one out,

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Speaker 1: I'll pick one out. Might be Newsy, it might just

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Speaker 1: be one of our favorites, and we're gonna run those

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Speaker 1: on Saturday. If you haven't heard it, check it out.

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Speaker 1: If you have, we'd love for you to listen again. Sure,

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Speaker 1: so check it out in your podcast feed. It's as

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Speaker 1: simple as that. Welcome to Stuff you should know from

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Speaker 1: how Stuff works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck, Lena, my Shoulder,

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Speaker 1: Bryant and Jerry. How about a hug Roland No, actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Jerry's here in spirit. Our guest producer today

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Speaker 1: is Noel no my beard heels all Brown yes, everybody

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Speaker 1: knows it's Noel Brown. Are you using your empathy voice? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Is it working needful? In nobody? Really? That's the b

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Speaker 1: D eyes. Let's say I cut you for ten dollars. Oh,

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Speaker 1: how are you, sir? I'm feeling empathetic good. I'm doing good.

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Speaker 1: I have some very strong opinions on empathy, and not

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Speaker 1: just empathy, but empathy research in particulars. I'm sure you're

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Speaker 1: not at all surprised to hear. I'm not at all

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Speaker 1: surprised to hear. Did you come to the same or

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Speaker 1: similar conclusions as I did? I don't know yet, because

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Speaker 1: we don't talk about this stuff beforehand. That's true, that's

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Speaker 1: how we that's the magic going blind. Did you know

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Speaker 1: that there's like an Atlanta magic thing? Now, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean? Society something something along? I just saw a

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Speaker 1: sign for it, an old fourth Ward. But there's like

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Speaker 1: a seems to be a legitimate magicians with's that castle

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Speaker 1: in l A. Oh, the magic Castle. It's not that,

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Speaker 1: but it's probably something that the people who do the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta thing or I'm sure aware of the magic Castle.

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Speaker 1: Probably And then you did a double ticket to sign

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Speaker 1: and it disappeared in a poop of smile. It would

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Speaker 1: be great. I went to the Magic Castle once, Lucky. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. I think we had this conversation because I

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Speaker 1: asked you if you've seen that documentary about the kids

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Speaker 1: competition at the Magic Castle. Yeah, and I have not,

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Speaker 1: but um, it's a really good choke. Yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: can highly recommend it. If you can get in, you

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Speaker 1: gotta know somebody. You gotta know Ben Stiller. Oh really no,

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Speaker 1: there's a movie that he was in that took place

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Speaker 1: in the Magic Castle and he was like the bad guy.

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Speaker 1: I think I don't remember what it was. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: was that documentary. Well, let's talk empathy, chuck. Wait, hold on,

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Speaker 1: I have an intro. I have an intro. Are you

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Speaker 1: familiar with Frank Rich, the left leaning, well lefty as

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Speaker 1: heck essayist. I don't think so. He Uh, he's good.

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Speaker 1: He's about his He's about as good an essayists as

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Speaker 1: you'll find on the left. Um, he's a consultant on Veep.

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Speaker 1: He just he's hilarious and he knows his stuff right.

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Speaker 1: He usually writes for Harper's but he's also got a

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Speaker 1: regular gig in New York Magazine and in New York magazine. Recently,

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Speaker 1: he published a column I think this week, um, well

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Speaker 1: this week as of when we're recording this, and I

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Speaker 1: think it was called like no Sympathy for the Hillbilly

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and it was basically, this is

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Speaker 1: really astounding coming from him, But it was basically him saying,

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Speaker 1: you know what, Um, I know that on the left

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Speaker 1: people tend to be bleeding heart liberals and want to

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Speaker 1: empathize with everybody and feel everyone else's pain and understand

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Speaker 1: where people are coming from. But I believe that if

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Speaker 1: you voted for Trump and you're angry, or if I

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Speaker 1: believe if you're angry at the people who voted for Trump,

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Speaker 1: are angry that Trump is president, you should be angry

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Speaker 1: at the people who voted him into into office as well.

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Speaker 1: And he basically is beating a drum, which I also

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Speaker 1: started to see in other places as well, where it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to understand people who voted for Trump,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to love your enemy. Let's just go

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Speaker 1: to war with these people. And it's it's it's legitimate.

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Speaker 1: He's totally serious too, and it amounts to basically a

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Speaker 1: call to go to the dark side. To resist everything

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Speaker 1: that you know, the left has traditionally prided itself on,

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Speaker 1: and just go full bore like culture war against the right,

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Speaker 1: and um, it just seems like a really bad idea

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Speaker 1: to me. But one of the things that stuck out

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Speaker 1: to me about it the most was that it was

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Speaker 1: so contrary to the um ethos, the prevailing thought of

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Speaker 1: the time, or at least what made up the Obama administration,

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Speaker 1: which was we need to be more empathetic, we need

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Speaker 1: to understand people's plight more. And even after Hillary lost people,

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Speaker 1: one of the big post mortems was Hillary didn't connect

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Speaker 1: with blue collar workers who were out of work. She

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Speaker 1: was totally out of touch with that, she couldn't empathize

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Speaker 1: with them. Well, I think a further post mortem has

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Speaker 1: been like Hillary could empathize with those people all day,

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Speaker 1: but they hated her and they were never going to

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Speaker 1: vote for And now Frank Rich is saying, so hate

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Speaker 1: them back is the thing Again. I disagree with that,

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Speaker 1: but it really points out how what a fragile turning

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Speaker 1: point we're at right now this path in history on America.

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Speaker 1: Are we gonna stay and just keep trying to be

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Speaker 1: empathetic or we again just gonna go full board to

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Speaker 1: the dark side, and and just everybody's gonna hate everybody

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Speaker 1: who's just who's not like them. White an intro, thank

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Speaker 1: you for a coastal elite. Oh, I'm not a coastal elite.

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Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. I just like that phrase. I hope

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Speaker 1: I'm not. Man. I really don't think I am, and

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Speaker 1: I hope people don't think I am. I do stick

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Speaker 1: my pinky in the air when I take SIPs of water,

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Speaker 1: and that water has been strained through a m Franciscan

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Speaker 1: monks mouth. First. I don't think the only water I'll drink.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you can be a coastal elite if

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Speaker 1: you have your roots in Toledo right exactly, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I don't forget where I'm from man, and my family,

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Speaker 1: you know, has long roots and Tennessee and Mississippi. If

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Speaker 1: you know this by reading my Wikipedia page, right, does

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Speaker 1: it say that you're part Choctaw on there yet? I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it will soon, all right, So we're talking empathy here. UM.

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Speaker 1: A lot of this sounded familiar, so much so that

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Speaker 1: I like Quadripple checked that we had not done this. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I think we've just talked about it a lot,

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Speaker 1: and namely and uh in our Mirror Neurons episode. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I thought about that one a lot when I

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Speaker 1: was researching this. Well, I think it's definitely a component

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Speaker 1: of empathy, but it's not to be confused with empathy.

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Speaker 1: It's like part of it, I think is the impression

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Speaker 1: I have agreed. So, um, empathy if you look at

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Speaker 1: our not a great article, Uh, they do define it. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, everyone kind of knows what it is. But

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Speaker 1: just to be clear, it's not sympathy. It's a it's

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Speaker 1: if you can feel and share someone else's emotions. Is empathy,

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Speaker 1: which is different than sympathy, and that uh you're don't

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Speaker 1: You're not feeling it, but you do care about it,

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Speaker 1: right right. It's like, um, you can understand why someone

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Speaker 1: would be feeling like they're feeling. Is intellectual yea, Like

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Speaker 1: sympathies from the brain and empathy is from say, the heart. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of these words. When we get into

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Speaker 1: the definitions of empathy and versus compassion, it gets a

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Speaker 1: little Uh, I don't know. Some times I feel like

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Speaker 1: people are kind of splitting hairs with that. To me,

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Speaker 1: chuck is a huge red flag that the field is

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Speaker 1: not nearly as established as people like to think. Like

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Speaker 1: if there's still confusion on basic terms like empathy and

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Speaker 1: sympathy and they're used interchangeably, it just means that no

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Speaker 1: one is doing the right kind of hardcore researcher publishing

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Speaker 1: the right kind of hardcore papers that say this is

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Speaker 1: what it is, or this is what it not, this

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Speaker 1: is what it isn't almost just said this is what

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Speaker 1: it not is, this is what it ain't. No coastal elite.

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Speaker 1: But there was an original German word um einfilung, which

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Speaker 1: means feeling into and that's where empathy comes from. And

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Speaker 1: if you talk to an expert or a researcher um

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Speaker 1: these days, they're gonna talk about a couple of types

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Speaker 1: of empathy, um effective or maybe emotional empathy and cognitive

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Speaker 1: empathy and um the distinction is, as it turns out,

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Speaker 1: is pretty important it and to me, well, to me,

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Speaker 1: this is where a little bit of the splitting hairs

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Speaker 1: comes in, because as far as talking about um effective

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Speaker 1: empathy versus compassion, like is it the same thing? Or

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, cognitive empathy would be more like compassion because

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Speaker 1: you're not really taking on someone else's pain. So compassion,

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Speaker 1: I think, is even like a third word. This is so,

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Speaker 1: this is what I came up with. You've got cognitive empathy,

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Speaker 1: which is sympathy, right, you can understand why someone would

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Speaker 1: be feeling a certain way. Then then you've got effective empathy,

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Speaker 1: empathy which this one dude calls it okay, which is

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Speaker 1: like you're really putting yourself in that person shoes and

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Speaker 1: you're feeling how they're feeling. Right then, But then compassion,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me, is the end goal of this

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Speaker 1: That's where you actually moved to act. That's where you

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Speaker 1: do something about it. That's where you put your hand

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Speaker 1: on someone's shoulder and say it's gonna be all right,

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Speaker 1: or know, here's a check for five dollars um, get

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Speaker 1: some groceries with it. Who knows what you're gonna do.

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Speaker 1: But I think to me, compassion is the act, like

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Speaker 1: the action, the end goal of empathy, whether it's cognitive

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Speaker 1: or um or effective. And that's that's what I think.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, this field is so unestablished that

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Speaker 1: I can just say that stuff. Yeah, and it's probably right.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say that that's true. No one can really

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Speaker 1: come along and say definitively that you're not right right. Uh,

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Speaker 1: So you know, to put giving you an example of

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Speaker 1: what that might mean effective or emotional empathy. Um, if

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Speaker 1: someone if you have a friend or family member going

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Speaker 1: through a very hard time, uh, and they're distraught, and

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Speaker 1: then you are also distraught just like they are, then

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Speaker 1: that is definitely effective empathy. Whereas you're not just like,

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Speaker 1: oh man, you know your your uncle passed away. I'm

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Speaker 1: really sorry to hear that, and I feel terribly for you.

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Speaker 1: But if if you are you know, actively taking that

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Speaker 1: on to the point where you're crying too, and you

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Speaker 1: didn't know the uncle, because that would be the differentiation rights,

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Speaker 1: like you don't have a personal stake in it, but

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Speaker 1: you're still taking it on as if it is your own. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and then depending on your view of things, And we'll

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about this. There's this really great psychologist

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Speaker 1: named Paul Bloom who has basically dedicated a lot of

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Speaker 1: his life to shooting down ideas of how great empathy is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought he was. I thought he made a lot

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Speaker 1: of good points, and some quite agree with either. But

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Speaker 1: he's great. He's really good at poking holes in the

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Speaker 1: concept of empathy. But he points out that, um that,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's probably good if somebody's something, someone's in

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Speaker 1: a great mood and you're empathetic and sharing in that

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Speaker 1: great mood and amplifying it. But on the flip side

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Speaker 1: of the coin, if somebody is in a horrifically tragically

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Speaker 1: sad mood and you're sitting there amplifying that by joining

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Speaker 1: in part and parcel with it, then you're you're doing

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Speaker 1: a disservice, right, So in some in some ways, Um, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll just say Paul Bloom's whole basically, his whole thesis

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Speaker 1: and I subscribe to it as well, is that cognitive

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Speaker 1: is far and away the superior of the two types

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Speaker 1: of empathy as far as the ultimate goal, which again

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Speaker 1: to me is compassion. Yes, you want to just pepper

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Speaker 1: in some of his stuff as we go. Does that

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Speaker 1: make sense because here's a great spot too. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: this is one of the studies I imagine. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you had a problem with it, but I

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Speaker 1: had a problem with a lot of these studies. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there was a study, um at least one where

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Speaker 1: psychologists said, um, how much money will you donate to

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Speaker 1: develop a drug that would save one child's life. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then another group was asked, how much would you

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Speaker 1: donate to develop a drug that would save eight kids?

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Speaker 1: And it was about the same answer. Um. Where things

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Speaker 1: changed was when they asked a third group about the

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Speaker 1: one child. But they showed a picture of the kid

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, I said, this is this little Joe.

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Speaker 1: He's fourteen years old, and this is his sad little face.

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Speaker 1: And then donations really shot up. And this is where, um,

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Speaker 1: what was his name, Paul Bloom, Paul Bloom, a psychologist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is where Paul Bloom says that, um, this emotional

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Speaker 1: empathy is for the birds because A it's it's um,

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Speaker 1: it's narrow, and B it's very like people tend to

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Speaker 1: want to help people that are like them. So it's

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Speaker 1: I mean biases that the right word super biased. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and it it makes no sense. Not only does

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Speaker 1: it not scale upward as the number of people affect by, say,

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Speaker 1: like a tragedy increase, it actually goes the other way,

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Speaker 1: where the more people that are affected by something, the

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Speaker 1: less empathetic a person tends to be. Whereas if say

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Speaker 1: it's one person and you know that person's name, and

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Speaker 1: you see that person's picture on the news, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: they look like you or your neighbor, your daughter. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna empathize a lot. But at the same time, there

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Speaker 1: could be you know, the same thing could be happening

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Speaker 1: to fifty other people, and if you'll just vote a

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Speaker 1: certain way you can alleviate their suffering. You wouldn't lift

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Speaker 1: a finger to do it, especially if it meant slightly

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Speaker 1: higher taxes for you. So in that sense, empathy makes

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Speaker 1: no sense whatsoever. Yeah. I mean he even quoted Mother

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Speaker 1: Teresa in his uh in this essay, which is um quote,

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Speaker 1: if I look at the mass, I will never act.

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Speaker 1: If I look at the one, I will, So he's

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Speaker 1: going with the heavy hitters there, you know, when you

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Speaker 1: bring Mother Teresa in there to kind of make a point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know he makes a good point. Um oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Like and and that study does. I didn't have a

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Speaker 1: big problem with that study because it does kind of

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Speaker 1: prove that out right. That was Telea Coca and uh

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Speaker 1: Alana Ritov, their psychologists, and then Ritov in another UM

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Speaker 1: co author, conducted another study where UM that kind of

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Speaker 1: pointed out one of the problems with empathy, which was

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Speaker 1: they said, Okay, UM. Two different groups of people heard this,

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Speaker 1: that UM that a vaccine maker cost a child her life,

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Speaker 1: kill the child because of the vaccine. Now, UM, should

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Speaker 1: the vaccine maker be fined? And then one group was

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Speaker 1: told that the fine would probably make the vaccine maker

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Speaker 1: UM follow guidelines even more strictly and would probably prevent accidents,

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Speaker 1: and then the other further accidents, and then the UM.

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Speaker 1: The other group was told that this fine would probably

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Speaker 1: make the vaccine maker get out of the business and

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Speaker 1: more people would die because they couldn't get the vaccine,

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Speaker 1: and both groups said that yes, the vaccine maker should

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Speaker 1: be punished with UM the highest fine possible. Extreme prejudice. Right.

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Speaker 1: So the upshot of all of this is that especially

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Speaker 1: with UM effective empathy as we understand it, we we

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Speaker 1: it doesn't it doesn't follow any kind of rational guidelines,

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Speaker 1: and the basis of rationality being that who is more

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Speaker 1: important than one right and empathy just doesn't go in

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Speaker 1: that direction. Yeah. But UM, Interestingly, UM, while you can

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Speaker 1: train yourself to be more empathetic, it definitely to me

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Speaker 1: feels like something that you were sort of born with

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Speaker 1: to a certain degree, or maybe in the formative years

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Speaker 1: you might gain um but uh In in blooms article,

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Speaker 1: he talks about babies and as as soon as a

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Speaker 1: baby can get up and start getting around, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: try and comfort. Like if you go into a preschool

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Speaker 1: and there's another baby crying, you will probably see another

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Speaker 1: little baby walking over there and patting the little baby

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Speaker 1: and stroking the baby. There's nothing more adorable. It's a

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Speaker 1: pretty adorable um. And you know it happens in the

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Speaker 1: animal kingdom. Um. Although they did note um this, Franz

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Speaker 1: de Wal the pramatologists notes that it kind of follows

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Speaker 1: humans in a way and that um, a chimpanzee might

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Speaker 1: really um like put like hug a victim of an attack,

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Speaker 1: but it's got to be another jimp. Like if they're

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Speaker 1: like they will smash the brains out of another kind

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Speaker 1: of monkey maybe if it wanders into their little village.

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Speaker 1: That to me kind of underscores this whole, this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: like when we when we look at empathy, the first

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Speaker 1: question that people have is like, why don't we have

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Speaker 1: more empathy or why don't we have empathy for everybody?

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Speaker 1: We're all here, And it seems like based on France

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Speaker 1: to Walls studies and um other studies about the the

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Speaker 1: evolution of in group and out group behavior. Like we

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Speaker 1: we evolved over hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years,

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Speaker 1: but I guess more than that if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: also looking at the grade apes right to see other

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Speaker 1: groups that aren't like us as threatening, right, it makes

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Speaker 1: sense in an evolutionary speaking, right, And it's it's only

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Speaker 1: in like the last uh ten eleven thousand years that

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Speaker 1: we settled down and started forming cities. But even then

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Speaker 1: there was in group and out group people. You didn't recognize,

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Speaker 1: we're coming to kill you for your crops, so you

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Speaker 1: needed to fight those people. You didn't need to empathize

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Speaker 1: with them that, oh you're hungry, so you're gonna take

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Speaker 1: my life. I understand, right. That didn't That didn't jibe

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Speaker 1: with natural selection. But then you add jets into the mix,

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Speaker 1: and then TV and then the Internet, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, we're exposed to more in groups and out

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Speaker 1: groups and are expected to get along more civilly than

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Speaker 1: ever before. But our evolution hasn't caught up quite enough, right,

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Speaker 1: So now we're faced at this point where it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we just need to figure out how to empathize more,

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Speaker 1: and this last vestige that's holding back out completely civil

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Speaker 1: global society will fade away. In France, to all put

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Speaker 1: it pretty well, he said, this is the challenge of

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Speaker 1: our time globalization by a tribal species, and that's where

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Speaker 1: we're facing right now. And right now it feels like,

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Speaker 1: at least in the United States, we're backsliding. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a good place to take a break, I think, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, Well, we're gonna come back in just a

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Speaker 1: minute and talk a little bit about something called the

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Speaker 1: racial empathy gap right after this. All right, so I

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Speaker 1: promised some talk about race. And there's something called the

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Speaker 1: racial empathy gap. Um studies of kind of. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you walk around as a living breath and human

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Speaker 1: human being, you can probably tell that that's something. But

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Speaker 1: they have done studies on it, and um, a lot

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Speaker 1: of these studies are a little hinky to me. But uh,

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Speaker 1: in one they showed video clips of a needle going

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Speaker 1: into someone's skin, uh, notably a white person's skin at first,

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Speaker 1: and what they found was, um, white people reacted more

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Speaker 1: or with more empathy when the needle went into white

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Speaker 1: skin than when it went into dark skin, right, or

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Speaker 1: they had they showed more signs of distress, like they

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Speaker 1: started to sweat a little more, sure, their hearts started

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Speaker 1: to beat a little faster. Yeah, that's where I think

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Speaker 1: mirror neurons might come into play. Um right, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what they're that's brain wiring. That's a huge problem with

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Speaker 1: reading about empathy in the popular media. They're huge jumps

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Speaker 1: from mirror neurons to full on effective empathy with just

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Speaker 1: the switch of a sentence and then or the the

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Speaker 1: stroke of a headline, like and so people are not

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Speaker 1: talking about the same thing. And I'm sure there's plenty

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Speaker 1: of empathy researchers out there that are just like, guys, guys,

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Speaker 1: this is not like you're making huge jumps at the conclusion.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's like, shut up, doesn't matter, we're selling clicks, you know.

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Speaker 1: But so, yes, that's so. It is surely setting off

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Speaker 1: mirror neurons. I don't understand how it's being translated into empathy.

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Speaker 1: A side from I think a lot of the empathy

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Speaker 1: studies involves self reporting. So I think what they're doing

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Speaker 1: is they're saying, oh well, uh subject twenty nine, Um,

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Speaker 1: their heart really started beating and look at this on

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Speaker 1: this questionnaire they filled out, they really consider themselves an

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Speaker 1: empathetic person. Ipso fact though an empathetic person is responding

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Speaker 1: very empathetically right now to seeing this needle. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: what if they showed painted someone's skin green, Well they have,

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Speaker 1: they've done violet tinted and actually can tell you the

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Speaker 1: truth as far as correlating with self reports. Um, that

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Speaker 1: that does tend to be a pretty good, um control

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Speaker 1: to tell you the truth because apparently all people respond

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Speaker 1: to that one. Huh didn't that interesting? Um, there is

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Speaker 1: something going on there though, I mean, we're not like

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Speaker 1: discounting that because they have done studies that show that minorities, um,

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Speaker 1: maybe don't get pain medication like they should compared to

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Speaker 1: white people. Uh, And I don't know. It seems like

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Speaker 1: a racial empathy gap is a pretty decent explanation for

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Speaker 1: that for sure, or in the criminal justice system, which

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Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about, or maybe just in empathy

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Speaker 1: altogether between races. So if you're if you're a judge though,

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Speaker 1: and you're you're not following sentencing guidelines, you're just using

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Speaker 1: your own personal biases to hand out sentences, and you

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Speaker 1: have people's lives and futures in your hands. Yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: not following the law, You're following your own bias. You're

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Speaker 1: a piece of garbage. Well, I nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: you being an empathetic person or not. What about that

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Speaker 1: judge who U remember the guy the swimmer who raped

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Speaker 1: the girl by the dumpster. It was obvious that judge

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Speaker 1: was kind of like, oh, look at this kid, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin his future. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to ruin his future, Like that could have been my son,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like me. It was clearly

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Speaker 1: bias and empathy going on because he was like him.

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Speaker 1: And there's no way if that would have been some

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Speaker 1: black kid that he wouldn't have ruled differently. I just

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Speaker 1: there's no no one can convince me that that that's

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Speaker 1: not the truth, right, And I think that there's like

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Speaker 1: there's another distinction that's eventually going to be hammered out

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Speaker 1: to Like I don't think he was empathizing with that

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Speaker 1: swimmer kid. If he was, I could be wrong, who knows,

401
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Speaker 1: but I think he was um at the very least

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Speaker 1: exhibiting a bias that yes he was, he let the

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Speaker 1: kid off off the hook Um because he looked like him.

404
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Speaker 1: I think he might have been sympathizing with him though,

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Speaker 1: because even flat outsaid like this could ruin his life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was definitely sympathizing at least for sure. Boy uh

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Speaker 1: so um. Going back a bit to uh philosopher Adam

408
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Speaker 1: Smith way back in the day, I think was clearly

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Speaker 1: talking about mirror neurons, even though he didn't know that

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Speaker 1: was the thing at the time when he wrote that, um,

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Speaker 1: persons of delicate fibers who notice a beggar's sores and

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Speaker 1: ulcers are apt to feel an itching or an easy sensation,

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Speaker 1: and the correspondent part of their own bodies. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely mirror neurons firing off. And we've been saying

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Speaker 1: that a lot. If you don't know what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: listen to uh great, feel someone else's pain? Yeah, can

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Speaker 1: you feel someone else pain? It was from a few

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Speaker 1: years ago, but it was one of my favorites we've

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Speaker 1: ever done, just because it's so fascinating. It really is.

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Speaker 1: But the brain is wired like that, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: the reason why and this is the you know, the

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Speaker 1: easiest way to explain it. Like if you see like

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00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: in a football game, someone's leg gets broken and you

424
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: literally feel like pain shoot through your body. That's those

425
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: are mirror neurons. Did you see There's a Simpsons recently

426
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: where Kirk van Houghton is back in college and he

427
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: goes to like high five. He's like a lacrosse player.

428
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: He goes to high five the college mascot, which is

429
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: like a guy in a suit of armor, and he

430
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: breaks his wrist in like fifty places and they show

431
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: they cut to the sideline and Joe thisman takes his

432
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: head off and throws up into man. I remember that

433
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: sisman thing. I think we talked about that in the episode. Yeah,

434
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: I still I don't think I still have ever seen it.

435
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: You don't need to. I think I do, though, Like,

436
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: how can I be walking and talking through life and

437
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,239
Speaker 1: not haven't seen Joe Theisman break his leg. Well, it's

438
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: one of those things when you see a body get

439
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: bent in a very unnatural like direction. It's just, Yeah,

440
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: your your brain is hardwired to not accept that. I

441
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: know it makes you faint because your brain is like,

442
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: I can't see anymore. Speaking of the brain, Chuck Um,

443
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the brain, right, So, UM.

444
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: One of the we've already kind of touched on one

445
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: of the issues that I think we both have with

446
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: UM empathy research is that the does the designs of

447
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: the studies are just so shoddy it's mind boggling. But

448
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: then the other part of it, it's like, well, just

449
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: leave it to neuroscience. But neuroscience is still using the

450
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 1: same old m R S that it was before. And again,

451
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: all it's showing is that's where more oxygen is in

452
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: the part of the brain, right, then, so we're gonna

453
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: correlate that to that part of the brain being lit up.

454
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: So that means that this part of brain has to

455
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: do with UM. Looking at pictures of boops, this is

456
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: the boom region, right, And this is like the level

457
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: that that neurology is is ad as far as behavioral

458
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: studies goes. Right, you put these two together, this is

459
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: the state of the art with with empathy research, but

460
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 1: with the brain as far as that goes. They have

461
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: kind of isolated a few different parts. And again this

462
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: is kind of like we think that this has to

463
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: do with this process just because in trial after trial,

464
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: the same circuit has been followed or the same region

465
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: has lit up when we've applied this stimulus to different people. UM,

466
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: so there's a there's there's good evidence that this this

467
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: does have to do with say empathizing or whatever, but

468
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: it's still it's just a very it's a rudimentary understanding

469
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: at this point, I think, compared to say, like fifty

470
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: years from now. Right. So what what they've what they

471
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 1: think they figured out is that there's a UM part

472
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: of the brain and I love parts of the brain.

473
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: The effect active effective empathy part of the brain is

474
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: called the insular cortex. That's where they think that the

475
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: effective region are part of the effective region lies the

476
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: anterior insular cortex, and then the cognitive empathy UH is

477
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: thought to reside or originate in the mid singulate cortex.

478
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: And actually those came from a Monash University research UM

479
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: paper that's that looked at the concentration of gray matter,

480
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: the density of gray matter, and that's like the neurons,

481
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: whereas white matters like the connecting material. Right. UM. And

482
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: so they're saying people who have UM, really effective empathy

483
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: have denser insular cortexes cortices, and then people who have

484
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: really serious cognitive empathy have dense midsingulate cortices. That's where

485
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: it's at right now. Yeah, they did a pretty interesting

486
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: test um this uh Tanya Tania singer and this dude

487
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: name Mattheo Ricard He's a Buddhist monk. And I get

488
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: the idea that they picked this guy because he can

489
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: very much control his brains and emotion. So what they

490
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: did was, he's a Buddhist monk. They did some F

491
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: M R I brain scanning on this guy and they said,

492
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: all right, sir Mr Ricard. Um, he's like, please call

493
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: me mete you. We would like you to engage in

494
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: some different types of compassion and h meditate and direct

495
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: that meditation towards people who are suffering. And then they

496
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: hooked him up to the to the brain scan magic

497
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: machine and they found that the meditative states UM. It

498
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: was actually surprising to them. It did not activate parts

499
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: of the brain that are usually activated by non meditators

500
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: when they think about pain. But he said, you know

501
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: it was it was good for me. Basically it was

502
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: a warm, positive state. And he said, all right, now

503
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: put yourself in this what you know they would call

504
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: the emotional empathetic state. UM. And I guess he's able

505
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: to turn that on like a switch, right this, Yeah, exactly,

506
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: and blood just comes out of his nose. Yeah, in

507
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: different parts of the brain lit up. And he said

508
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: this empathetic sharing very quickly became intolerable to me. I

509
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: felt emotionally exhausted, very similar to being burnt out. So

510
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: that's one of the big arguments against this emotional or

511
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: effective empathy is that you can't take on everyone else's

512
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: pain like this. Let's say you're a social worker or

513
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: you're a nurse or a doctor, like it's gonna drive

514
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: you insane. Oh yeah, well you'll you'll burn out. It's

515
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: called empathy distress. Yeah. And when they've talked to patients

516
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: like hospital patients, they don't want that either. They won't

517
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: They want maybe someone who has some sympathy. But patients

518
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: are more likely to feel better. I was just imagining

519
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: a doctor coming in and just falling to pieces at

520
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: your your condition. Doctors are coming yeah, well you don't Yeah,

521
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: like you said, you don't want a doctor like, No,

522
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: they feel better if their doctor is kind of clinical

523
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 1: and reassuring and really seems like they have it together,

524
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: which makes sense. Yeah, and you don't want somebody who's like, frankly,

525
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: I could care less whether you live or die. I

526
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: want somewhere in between those two, which which is where,

527
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're gonna die? Like you don't want

528
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: that out of your doctor. No, But it seems like

529
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the middle of that, those two specs, that those two

530
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: ends of the spectrum is where cognitive empathy comes in. Yeah, well, Chuck,

531
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: how about we take a break here, second break, That

532
00:30:43,200 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: sounds good, and we'll come back, we promise. All right, man,

533
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: what do you wanna talk about Sasha Baron Cohen? I

534
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: still have never actually looked up whether that's his brother

535
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: or cousin or what. Yeah. Psychologist Simon Baron Cohen wrote

536
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: a book in two thousand eleven called The Science of Evil,

537
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: and he's he's way down with empathy. Yeah, And I

538
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: guess that they describe him as a thoughtful defender is

539
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: what Bloom describes him as of empathy. Um. And he

540
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: has a ranking system, an empathy curve from zero to

541
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: six and zero is no empathy basically or sociopath and

542
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: six is you, I guess, the most hardcore of uh

543
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: emotional impaths. Yeah, you're in. You call it a constant

544
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: state of hype arousal. And he had this one woman

545
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: that he used in his little example named Hannah, who

546
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: was a therapist. It's probably a great job for her,

547
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: but she's just one of these people that, uh, by

548
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: all accounts, is just wired that way, like her friends

549
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: and her family and her patients, like she just really

550
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: feels for them all, Like it's not just her job,

551
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: which is in in some ways that it probably helps

552
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: some people, but in other ways it's really probably number

553
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: one off putting and even if everybody liked it, it's

554
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: bad for her in the end. Like you you're we're

555
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: not We're not designed to carry everybody's problems and issues

556
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: with us all the time. Yeah, And that's kind of

557
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: the main point Bloom is making, is that people like

558
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: Hannah are headed for headed toward burnout, she said it

559
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: for And he also does make the point that friends

560
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: and family don't like they need a certain amount of

561
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: that empathy. But you don't want one that's always like

562
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: in that state, Like you also want someone that's like,

563
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: all right, let's turn that frown upside down and let's

564
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: go out and take a walk, you know, Like you

565
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: don't want someone that's always cries when you cry. You know, right,

566
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: you're just gonna be like I thought, had a bad

567
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: but and and you can extend that also to um,

568
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: the way that people react in some ways, to say

569
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: like a mass tragedy or something like that, like look

570
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: a look at new Town, right the Sandy Hook shooting.

571
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: Twenty small kids were killed. Six adults were also killed

572
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: at the elementary school. It was the most horrific tragedy

573
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: I think that ever took place in the United States.

574
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: It was basically the one that everyone who believes in

575
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: very strict gun control was waiting for. Was New New

576
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: was gonna happen sooner or later, and thought, this is

577
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: gonna be the tipping point. And it didn't happen. Right.

578
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: What people reacted to with was outpourings of donations, lots

579
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: of stuffed animal moles apparently there were three for every

580
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: resident of the town were sent. Um yeah, and UM,

581
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: lots of thoughts and prayers. And if you ever have

582
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: seen um, you know Anthony Geselnick, he he yeah, he

583
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: has a Netflix special I think it's still on called

584
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: Thoughts and Prayers, and you watch that and he explains

585
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: to you just how valuable your thoughts and prayers are,

586
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: especially on Twitter UM. But Paul Bloom points out, is

587
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: like this actually proved to be this outpouring proved to

588
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: be an additional burden on this town which is already

589
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: suffering tremendously. But like they had to UM. There was

590
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: something like eight volunteers who were tasked with handling all

591
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: the donations UM, whether it was stuffed animals or money,

592
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: and they apparently had to get a warehouse to put

593
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: all the stuffed animals in. And I think even some

594
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: of the public officials were like, please stop sending us stuff.

595
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: Send stuff, but send it to other people. We've got

596
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: everything we made, send it to other people. And everyone said, no,

597
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: shut up, this is about us, not you. And I

598
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: think that that's part of UM effective empathy, that outpouring

599
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: of stuff that seems like a nice gesture that makes

600
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: you feel better but doesn't actually help in any real

601
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: substantial way. I think that kind of underlies or betrays

602
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: what UM, what effective empathy is all about, and why

603
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: why we are moved to do something with effective empathy

604
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: Because we're feeling something right then, and writing a check

605
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: or sending a teddy bear is a good way to

606
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: to feel better. For us to feel better whereas cognitive

607
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: empathy would be like, um, I'm going to see to

608
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: it that every senator who blocked the gun control bill

609
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: following new Town is voted right out of office. That

610
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: would be cognitive empathy. You're empathizing with the parents, you're

611
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: empathizing with future kids who haven't been killed yet, and

612
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: you're gonna do what you can to make sure it

613
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: doesn't happen, rather than writing a check um or sending

614
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: a teddy bear. Those to me are the real distinctions

615
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: between cognitive and effective empathy as far as that ultimate

616
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: goal is concerned, which is again compassion, but compassion is

617
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: doing what you can to improve the outcome for the

618
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: greater good. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And I Another thing

619
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: that UM kind of jumped out to me was these

620
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: psychologists Vicky Helgesen and Heidi Fritz. They were researching why

621
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: women are more likely I think twice as likely as

622
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: men to get depressed and experienced depression. And they thought,

623
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: you know, they said, you know what, I think it's

624
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: because women are more empathetic and and you know, emotionally empathetic.

625
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: And they take this on and uh, they said that

626
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: there's a propensity for what they called unmitigated communion, which

627
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: is a quote an excessive concern with others and placing

628
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: others needs before one's own end quote. And they you know,

629
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: gave people And this is one of those like a

630
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: nine item questionnaire. How much can you really learn? Um?

631
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: But uh, some of the statements agree to disagree with.

632
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: We're like for me to be happy, I need others

633
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: to be happy. I can't say no when someone has

634
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: for help. Often worry about others problems and kind of

635
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: across the board, women score higher than men do on

636
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: this and um, you know, I think a lot of

637
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: that probably has to do with with evolution to with

638
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, women having to care for their babies right

639
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: out of the gate. Which took took his wife. You

640
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: know although it took took we know never took a wife.

641
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: Um took took kind of a round. He got around.

642
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: But the women that took took would would knock up.

643
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: They would immediately be in charge of those babies. And

644
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: that's what um that primatologists talked about two was you know,

645
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: this is kind of straight up evolution. Our natural selection

646
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: is right out of the gate. We have this empathy

647
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: because we have to care for young and then um,

648
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: I think we already mentioned too, and then that definitely

649
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: evolves into protect the tribe, right, because we're better off

650
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: if the people around us are healthy and happy and

651
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: ready to ward off attacks. Um. But the idea that

652
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: women are more prone to experience, say, effective empathy, or

653
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: just even empathy in general, it's actually got a has

654
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: a biological basis. To tell you the truth to chuck

655
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: um in in adolescence or puberty, apparently girls have they

656
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: score high for effective empathy throughout their entire adolescence, where

657
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: between about ages thirteen and sixteen, boys effective empathy declined. Yeah,

658
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: and they say, oh, oh you feel bad, You're about

659
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: to feel worse because I'm gonna give you a swirly. Yeah.

660
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but it's a it's

661
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: where you stick someone's head in the toilet and flush swirling.

662
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: Never heard of that, fortunately, I had only heard of it,

663
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: never witnessed it or had it done to me. We

664
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: did noggies and uh, was it wedgie's when you did

665
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: the underwear. Yeah. Yeah, they're terrible. They are terrible, and

666
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: that's bullying behavior. And there are some theories about bullies too,

667
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: that they actually use empathy to manipulate people like they

668
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: they'll use it against them. Well, yeah, yeah, they they

669
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: used cognitive empathy to calculate the best most effective way

670
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: to hurt somebody and then um, they turn off any

671
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: potential like effective empathy, um when they're actually carrying out

672
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: their active bullying. Yeah. And with the teenagers too. They

673
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: they say that if you develop effective and cognitive empathy, um,

674
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: that you're going to be happier, You're gonna argue less

675
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 1: with your parents, you're gonna have more healthy relationships, which

676
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: you know kind of all makes sense. Sure, And they

677
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: also were saying too, and we will will get into

678
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: how to increase your own empathy if you think that

679
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: kind of thing is a good idea. Um. But that

680
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: babies learn empathy out of the out of the gate

681
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: by being empathized with, by being treated warmly by their

682
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: parents and other adults, being responded to in a warm manner,

683
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: that that actually is the beginning of empathy. And it's

684
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: like you said, you can see a little kid in

685
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: a preschool go over and comfort or console another little kid,

686
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: um who's in distress. Boy, that's why when I hear

687
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: about neglect like baby and infant neglect is just man,

688
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: that's like the most heartbreaking thing you can imagine. It's

689
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: like a baby just like left in a room to

690
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: cry and cry and cry forever. Plus also when we

691
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: were talking about the breastfeeding episode, that body to body

692
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: contact of being held shows or has been shown to

693
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: affect their development if they don't have it enough. It's

694
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: just all sorts of terrible things that happened to you

695
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: when you're neglected as a baby. Yeah, it's terrible, So Chuck,

696
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: there are plenty of people who's a well, we need

697
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: to empathize more. So just get out there and learn

698
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: how to empathize. And there's plenty of people out there

699
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: here will teach you techniques on empathizing with people more

700
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: and they may be worth trying. Like I found them

701
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: very helpful in a lot of cases, especially on interpersonal communication. Right,

702
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: But as far as like changing the world on a

703
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: massive scale for for the better, is it a good

704
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: idea to go out and just empathize, empathize, empathize, because

705
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: there's a big question mark with that, who exactly are

706
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: you supposed to empathize with? Like with just about every problem,

707
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: there's a group that's being helped by something and a

708
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: group that's being har harmed by something, especially when it

709
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: comes to public policy, right, So which group you're gonna

710
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: empathize with? If you empathize with the current victims and

711
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: you change public policy to help them, well, then you're

712
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: leaving the people who are currently benefiting out in the cold. Right.

713
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: So there's a big question of who you should empathize

714
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: with at any given point in time, which makes this

715
00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: whole behavioral science nudge politics BS that is ultimately behind

716
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: this whole push to empathize more um that that's not

717
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: taking that into consideration. And then there's this kind of

718
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: a second facet to that, which is studies have found

719
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: that when you increase empathy in people, um, they tend

720
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: to empathize more with their own group, but it also

721
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: in kind increases hostility in those people toward out groups.

722
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, Like, they see their friend

723
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: who's being hurt is more of a victim, and how

724
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: could you do this to them? And now I want

725
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: to get you back because one of the sour sides

726
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: of empathy is that it frequently comes with a taste

727
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: for retribution too, I think is how Paul Bloom put

728
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: it the dark side of empathy. So just yeah, there

729
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: is a dark side. There's a dark side to everything

730
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 1: in there. Yeah, except you from all dark side. You're

731
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: all hit kin. So we'll finish up here with a

732
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: bit on people with autism, because there's this stereotype, um

733
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: that if you everyone's probably heard it that you know what,

734
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: people with autism lack empathy and they don't understand emotions.

735
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: And if you know, anybody who uh either has autism

736
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: or is a parent of a child with autism, they

737
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: will dispel that myth pretty straight up just from their

738
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: own lives. Um. But these people did some studying and

739
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: some research because they were like, that's not good enough

740
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: for me, and it's not good enough to just say that, Like,

741
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: you know, every autism is different for everyone, So some

742
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 1: people have empathy or show people with autism show empathy,

743
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: so but everyone's different, So who cares about investigating that? Yeah?

744
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: So I really love the approach they took here. They

745
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: were kind of really wanted to keep digging, which I

746
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: really respected. So, uh, they said, you know what, I

747
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: think it might be going on here. There's this other

748
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: um condition called alexathemia, and alexithemia means you have a

749
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: difficult time understanding your own emotions. So you might, you know,

750
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: you might have a feeling that you're experiencing an emotion,

751
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: but you just don't know what it is. And about

752
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: ten percent of people have it in the regular population.

753
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: About fifty people with autism have alexithemia. But they're not

754
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: the same thing. No, And these guys actually found that, um,

755
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: people with autism who do not have alexathemia tend to

756
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: display empathy. Yeah, and even you know, lots of empathy.

757
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 1: Lots of empathy. Yeah, empathy. They got binders full of empathy,

758
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: finders full of empathy. Oh yeah, we remember when that

759
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: was the most controversial thing going in politics. Oh man,

760
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: finders full of empathy. Uh. Yeah, like they had they

761
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: scored you know, very strong when it came to measuring empathy. Uh.

762
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: And what they did was they you know, the makes

763
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: sense the way they did, it's very I really like

764
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: this study. They had four groups, uh, individuals with autism

765
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: and alexithemia, Uh, individuals with autism without it, individuals with

766
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: alexithemia but not autism, and then people that didn't have

767
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: either one. And it basically seems to kind of prove that. Yeah,

768
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: it's just not true that people with autism don't have empathy.

769
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: It's really Alexithemia's what's going on right, Which is I

770
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: think a novel finding or a novel hypothesis. I don't

771
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: think this is part of a larger field. I think

772
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: these these guys came up with that. Yeah, and did

773
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: you see that other study the UM from Goldsmith's University

774
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: of London about the facial expressions. I thought that was

775
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: pretty interesting too. Yeah, that they they investigated that, UM,

776
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: if you expose people with autism to the sounds of

777
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: people's voices and ask them to rate what emotion that

778
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: person is experiencing, they're far better UM calling that correctly

779
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 1: then faces. And apparently it's because people with autism tend

780
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: to spend much less time studying faces, not because they

781
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: can't empathize. They just aren't using cues that UM people

782
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: without autism use to UM conclude what emotions people are experiencing. Yeah,

783
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 1: really interesting stuff. And I don't know why this didn't

784
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: get more play because it still seems like people are

785
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: kind of banging that drum that you know, people with

786
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: autism that aren't empathetic. Yeah, I don't. I don't know

787
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: why either just makes sense that, yeah, um, we need

788
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: to do an entire episode on autism. Yeah, maybe alexophenia.

789
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: I've never heard of that. We also need to do

790
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: one on psychopaths too, which is another group that tends

791
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: to be pointed to. Is kind of incorrectly as far

792
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: as empathy goes, where if you're lacking empathy, you're a psychopath.

793
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: What actually turns out that if you have what's called

794
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: a shallow affect, meaning like you're across the board emotionally,

795
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: you're pretty stunted and um, shallow or superficial, that's what

796
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: really qualifies you as a psychopath, not just missing empathy. Um.

797
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: But yet again, it's another popular misconception that's being allowed

798
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: to persist. I'm just irritated, Chuck. I've got a great

799
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: quote though from Paul Bloom, And I also want to

800
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: say that I think, um that empathy also the different

801
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: kinds of empathy also get divided among the genders as well.

802
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 1: And we even said, we even talked about that study

803
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: that concluded that women tend to suffer from depression because

804
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: they're more empathetic. I think that maybe that's the case,

805
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: and there is a biological basis for it in adolescence.

806
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: But one thing that seems to persist everywhere is that

807
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: um different types of empathy or different techniques for empathy

808
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: to produce empathy can be learned, They can be taught.

809
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: And I think if you just say, like, well, wait

810
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: a minute, I really want to solve this problem, I'm

811
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: not going to fly off the handle or I'm not

812
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: gonna lose my marbles. I'm gonna like really put some

813
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: thought into it, and I can still be passionate, but

814
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't have to completely experience someone else's pain. I

815
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: don't think that that's a biological imperative one way or another.

816
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: I think if you decide to make a choice or

817
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: a change in the way you approach situations, that has

818
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: nothing to do with gender. So I just wanting to

819
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: point that out. Yeah, And as far as teaching empathy,

820
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: like there's been a little bit of poopo ing of

821
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: emotional empathy, but I think it's I think it's definitely

822
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: like a pretty good thing to do as a parent

823
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: to try and teach your child to like, hey, you know,

824
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 1: how would you feel if someone was doing this to you?

825
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: And that's how they learn Yeah, exactly. You don't learn

826
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: it on your own. I think it has to be

827
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: imparted by good parents. Agreed. And um. Again, the the goal,

828
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: and this is a Paul Bloom quote. The goal isn't

829
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: to to love every single person like you love the

830
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: people closest to you, but to value other people just

831
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 1: for the very fact that they're human beings. Right, that's

832
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: the goal that everybody's looking for with with empathy, And

833
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: he says, quote, our best hope for the future is

834
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 1: not to get people to think of all humanity as family.

835
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: That's impossible. It lies instead in an appreciation of the

836
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: fact that even if we don't empathize with distant strangers,

837
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: their lives have the same value as the lives of

838
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: those we love. That's the key. Very interesting. Yeah, good stuff,

839
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:26,280
Speaker 1: good stuff. We should subtitle this one Empathy a Lucy

840
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: Goosey episode, also known as what Paul Bloom says. Thank

841
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: you Paul Bloom. Yeah, big big ups to Paul Bloom. Uh.

842
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: And since I said big ups to Paul Bloom, that

843
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: means it's time for listener mail. Chuck Um, I'm gonna

844
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: call this hook worms nice um. Hello from the Sunny South,

845
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: United States. Southerners aren't lazy and dumb, they just had hookworm.

846
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: Great title. By the way, Josh brought back a childhood memory,

847
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: and if I only had to write end guys who

848
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: grew up in Florida. So we spent most of the

849
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: summer with our shoes off uh, And I remember my

850
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: mother distinctly reminded me to wear shoes UH so I

851
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't get the ground ditch. This never happened. I called

852
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: my mom, who was now eighty eight years old, to

853
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: verify a few facts and about when I was a

854
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: little girl, I believe around five to seven or eight

855
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: years before school started, my mother would give me a

856
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: worm treatment on my feet. I explained to her what

857
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: I had learned during the podcast about hookworms and how

858
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: they affected the body. When I mentioned how they cause

859
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: severe anemia and caused the body to be more susceptible

860
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: to illness, she remembered a story about my father's cousin.

861
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: Apparently the cousin was so and became so incredibly ill

862
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: she was very close to dying. They took her to

863
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: the hospital and found out she was severely anemic, and

864
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 1: before they began any other diagnostics, they decided to test

865
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: her for hookworm and bingo as my mother said, she

866
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 1: was full of them. She had a high worm burden.

867
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: She did. Uh. Mom said. It took three treatments to

868
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: get rid of the worms. The story was she was

869
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: so infested they literally came out of her mouth when

870
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: she was being treated. Oh my god, Wow, that is

871
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: the best story I've heard in a while. And she

872
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: put in parentheses. I know, right, because I think she

873
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: anticipated that reaction. That's why you don't want to be

874
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: a six point oh um effective empathetic person. Yeah, that's right. Uh.

875
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: This cousin is actually still alive and in her early nineties,

876
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: so uh, this would have been in the nineties. I

877
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 1: hope she doesn't listen to this ship Hookworm and Fancy

878
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: Free in Florida. As from Terry Brunson of Panama City. Nice,

879
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Terry. That was a great email. I

880
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: had everything had. It was a roller coaster ride. There

881
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: was a cousin who had worms coming out of her mouth.

882
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: I laughed, I cried. There was a mom, an old cousin.

883
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: I'd like to know what the worm treatment consisted of.

884
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: I'll bet there was dead cat in there somewhere. Uh.

885
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: If you want to tell us about your family's weird remedies.

886
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: We want to know the ingredients, and you can tweet

887
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: them to us at s y s K podcast or

888
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 1: hit me up at Josh Underscore um Underscore Clark. You

889
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: can hang out with us on Facebook at Facebook dot

890
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: com slash stuff you Should Know or Facebook dot com

891
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant Uh, send us an email

892
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: the Stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot com, and

893
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: join us as always at our home on the web,

894
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: stuff you Should Know dot com. For more on this

895
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff Works

896
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: dot com