1
00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Cool zone media.

2
00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:11,080
Speaker 2: What happens when a Nazi rally comes to town. Maybe

3
00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 2: it's a little different from town to town, But as

4
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,079
Speaker 2: a resident of Charlottesville, Virginia, I've spent the last eight

5
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,240
Speaker 2: years trying to answer that question. In one very particular instance,

6
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,520
Speaker 2: they Unite the Right rally on August twelfth, twenty seventeen.

7
00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 2: It didn't take eight years to find the obvious answer

8
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 2: to that question. It's violence. Before the day of the

9
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,559
Speaker 2: rally even dawned, there was violence. There was violence at

10
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,120
Speaker 2: rallies all over the country in the months leading up

11
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,879
Speaker 2: to August twelfth, violence encouraged by and at the hands

12
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,159
Speaker 2: of the men who were busy organizing the event that

13
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 2: would cap off what they called the Summer of hate.

14
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 2: And when the day finally came, the violence they'd been

15
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,520
Speaker 2: promising to deliver all summer left blood in our streets,

16
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 2: but not a single speech was made that day. Fights

17
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,479
Speaker 2: broke out in the streets as rallygoers arrived at the park.

18
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: Police watched and waited as neo Nazis who'd taken cross

19
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:19,680
Speaker 2: country flights looking for a fight, hunched, kicked, bludgeoned, and,

20
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 2: in at least one instance, choked, counter protesters who stood

21
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:28,960
Speaker 2: in their way. The rally itself never even really happened.

22
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,679
Speaker 2: Police dispersed the crowd before it ever really got started,

23
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,120
Speaker 2: and it had already been over for hours when one

24
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 2: man who'd hoped to attend it took his revenge on

25
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 2: the counter demonstrators, murdering heather Hire and injuring dozens of others.

26
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you some of those stories one of

27
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 2: these days. There were a handful of criminal prosecutions, and

28
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 2: I spent years sitting quietly on a wooden bench, watching

29
00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,200
Speaker 2: and dutifully taking notes. But those cases, for the most part,

30
00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,919
Speaker 2: were pretty open and shut, and they were resolved fairly

31
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,280
Speaker 2: quickly by the standards of the court.

32
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: The civil lawsuits took.

33
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:16,960
Speaker 2: Longer, years longer, and they often raised more questions than

34
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 2: they answered, questions the court is perhaps not equipped to answer.

35
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 2: But the Court has been quite clear on one question

36
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 2: in particular, one raised by several different lawsuits. Do the

37
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 2: police have an obligation to protect anyone? The answer is no.

38
00:02:41,919 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 2: I'm Molly Conquer, and this is weird, Blue Guys. This

39
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 2: wasn't the episode I meant to write this week. I

40
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,240
Speaker 2: was working on something else, entirely, something I'm still working on.

41
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,279
Speaker 2: When I realized it was a longer and more complicated

42
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,040
Speaker 2: narrative than I felt like I could get my arms

43
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 2: around this week, so I set it aside and started

44
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,239
Speaker 2: scrambling at the eleventh hour for something I thought I

45
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 2: could pull together quickly, something I already know a lot

46
00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,200
Speaker 2: about and won't lose myself for days trying to do

47
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,680
Speaker 2: a lot of new research. But then I saw a

48
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 2: blog post from an attorney, Glenn Keith. Allen is a

49
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 2: man whose story should be told on its own, and

50
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,880
Speaker 2: I think I will eventually, So I won't tell you

51
00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 2: more than you need to know here. I'm very comfortable

52
00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 2: describing him as a neo Nazi lawyer. That's what the

53
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 2: Southern Poverty Law Center called him in a headline of

54
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 2: an article published in twenty sixteen, when they revealed that

55
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 2: the attorney working for the Baltimore Police Department had been

56
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 2: a dues paying member of the neo Nazi group National

57
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 2: Alliance for decades.

58
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:03,040
Speaker 1: Now.

59
00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 2: The SBLC has done a lot of great work over

60
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: the years, But I don't mean to say that my

61
00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 2: ironclad certainty here comes only from repeating their claim. No, No,

62
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 2: I'm very sure that I can say that Glenn Allen

63
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 2: is a neo Nazi lawyer because he unsuccessfully sued the

64
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 2: SPLC for defamation. In the memorandum dismissing his suit, the

65
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 2: judge notes that not only had Allan failed to show

66
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,040
Speaker 2: there was any falsehood in the claims that had been

67
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 2: made by the SBLC, he didn't even appear to be

68
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,280
Speaker 2: disputing the claim that he was in fact a neo Nazi.

69
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there's that, and.

70
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,159
Speaker 2: There is also the fact that he spent the last

71
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 2: couple of years being the go to guy when neo

72
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,799
Speaker 2: Nazis need a lawyer. He's represented members of Patriot Front

73
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 2: in lawsuits in Virginia and Washington State and in their

74
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 2: criminal cases in Idaho. He currently represents members of the

75
00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,040
Speaker 2: Goyam Defense League in a lawsuit in Georgia. He's represented

76
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,600
Speaker 2: white supremacist publications American Renaissance and v DARE. He was

77
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 2: hired by Nathan Dimigo, the former leader of the neo

78
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 2: Nazi group Identity Europa, in his ongoing effort to use

79
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,000
Speaker 2: a bankruptcy case to evade paying damages to the victims

80
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 2: of the United's Right Rally. Allan has also filed petitions

81
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,520
Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court on behalf of members of the

82
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,039
Speaker 2: neo Nazi street fighting gang, the Rise Above movement. And

83
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,200
Speaker 2: then there's the case I'm talking about today. Last week,

84
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,359
Speaker 2: Glenn Allen posted an update to his website to share

85
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,239
Speaker 2: some sad news. He wrote, on April seventh, twenty twenty five,

86
00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court denied our petition. The Court's decision, although

87
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,039
Speaker 2: not surprising, is regrettable. The Court missed an opportunity to

88
00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,600
Speaker 2: advance the cause of First Amendment protection for unpopular speech

89
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,239
Speaker 2: and to admonishi the City of Charlottesville for taking sides

90
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:08,160
Speaker 2: against Warren and the other pro monument protesters. The cases

91
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,480
Speaker 2: talking about was originally filed by Gregory Conti and Warren

92
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 2: Baylaw in twenty nineteen. Both men had attended the United

93
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 2: Right rally in Charlesville, Virginia, on August twelfth, twenty seventeen,

94
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 2: and felt their civil rights had been violated by various

95
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 2: parties then named as defendants in their lawsuit, the Commonwealth

96
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,120
Speaker 2: of Virginia, the City of Charlesville, the Virginia State Police,

97
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,279
Speaker 2: then Governor of Virginia Terry mccauliffe, the Charlesville Police Department,

98
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 2: several individual members of both police agencies and city staff,

99
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 2: as well as the sort of random assortment of individual

100
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,840
Speaker 2: counter protesters. Now I realize as I'm writing this that

101
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 2: as continuously present as the events of summer twenty seventeen

102
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 2: have felt here in Charlottesville, I was eight years ago.

103
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 2: It was national news back then, but it's likely faded

104
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 2: from the memories of people everywhere else. And if you're

105
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 2: too young to have been watching the news eight years ago,

106
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 2: you might never even have known enough to forget. The

107
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 2: rally was, on its surface about Confederate statues. Back in

108
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, that was a pretty hot issue. Granted, a

109
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 2: lot of people had been voicing opposition to the presence

110
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 2: of those monuments to racism for a century or so

111
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,000
Speaker 2: since they'd been put up, but it became a subject

112
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,600
Speaker 2: of national concern in twenty fifteen after the Charleston church shooting.

113
00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,559
Speaker 2: Cities around the country were starting to talk about taking

114
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,640
Speaker 2: them down, and many did. But here in Virginia, a

115
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 2: state law stood in the way of local decision making

116
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 2: on the subject. Local governments needed state permission to take

117
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 2: down a monument or a memorial to any war. The

118
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 2: law even species hifically prohibited quote the placement of Union

119
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 2: markings or monuments on previously designated Confederate memorials. But a

120
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,720
Speaker 2: court ruling in late twenty fifteen seemed to hint that

121
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,320
Speaker 2: perhaps the law could be interpreted to mean that it

122
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 2: only applied to statues erected after that law was passed,

123
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 2: which could mean it didn't apply to Charlottesville. That legal

124
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 2: battle lasted years, and it probably isn't interesting to normal people,

125
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 2: so I won't get into it. But what you need

126
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 2: to know here is that in twenty sixteen, the city

127
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 2: of Charlottesville was starting to take real steps toward trying

128
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 2: to take down the statues of Robert E. Lee and

129
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 2: Stonewall Jackson, and some people were very, very angry about it.

130
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 2: At the end of May twenty seventeen, a local resident

131
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,079
Speaker 2: named Jason Kessler filed an application with the City of

132
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 2: Charlesville for a special event permit. He wanted to hold

133
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,280
Speaker 2: an event on August twelfth, twenty seventeen, in the park

134
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,839
Speaker 2: where the Roberty Lee statue stood. He described the event

135
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 2: as a free speech rally in support of the Lee monument,

136
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,679
Speaker 2: and on his application he estimated that about four hundred

137
00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,720
Speaker 2: people would attend, but it wasn't about the statues, not

138
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:29,600
Speaker 2: really not. In the end, this statue was a focal point,

139
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 2: a rallying cry, a lightning rod. Whatever it was, an excuse,

140
00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,319
Speaker 2: it was a breaking point. The men who descended on

141
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 2: this little college town were here to put black people

142
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,520
Speaker 2: in their place. They were here to fight the Jewish agenda.

143
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,679
Speaker 2: They were here to fist fight Antifa. They were here

144
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,040
Speaker 2: to kill communists. Sure a lot of them were proud

145
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 2: of their Southern heritage, I guess, but that doesn't really

146
00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 2: help explain the swastika tattoos, does it. Where the months

147
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,440
Speaker 2: of messages exchanged, and a discord server where attendees gleefully

148
00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 2: discussed their fantasies about killing counter protesters.

149
00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:10,600
Speaker 1: There were several.

150
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 2: Conversations in the discord server about whether it was legal

151
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,319
Speaker 2: to run people over. Memes were posted about plowing through

152
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 2: a crowd with heavy machinery.

153
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:20,440
Speaker 1: It was all just a joke.

154
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:28,199
Speaker 2: Everyone was laughing until someone actually did it. The rally

155
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,480
Speaker 2: was supposed to begin at Nune That's what the permit said.

156
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 2: Attendees would gather in the park near the statue of

157
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 2: Roberty Lee, and they would listen to speeches from far

158
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 2: right micro celebrities like Richard Spencer, Baked Alaska, Christopher Cantwell,

159
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,520
Speaker 2: Augustus and Victus, Matthew Heinbach, and Mike Pinovich. But like

160
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,199
Speaker 2: I said, no one ever gave a speech. The streets

161
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 2: downtown were packed with counter protesters. At the very last

162
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 2: minute that morning, the event organizer, who'd been the group's

163
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 2: police liaison, backed of the agreed upon plan to have

164
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,680
Speaker 2: the scheduled speakers shuttled into the park with a police escort,

165
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,560
Speaker 2: and within an hour of that decision, all hell had

166
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 2: broken loose in the streets near the park. By eleven

167
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,839
Speaker 2: thirty am, the local police had declared the gathering and

168
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 2: unlawful assembly. State police and riot years showed up a

169
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 2: few minutes later to clear the park by force. One

170
00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 2: of the only funny pictures taken that day shows Richard

171
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,080
Speaker 2: Spencer's mid tantrum as he's being shoved out of the

172
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,240
Speaker 2: park by a line of riot cops. There's a lot

173
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,480
Speaker 2: to be said about the months leading up to that

174
00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 2: day in August. Much of it has already been said,

175
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 2: and some of it I'm sure I'll write some other day,

176
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 2: but today, just in case you don't remember, the summer

177
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,720
Speaker 2: of twenty seventeen. That'll do, because the facts at issue

178
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 2: in that lawsuit are here at the entrance to the

179
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 2: park between about nine thirty am in noon. The plaintiffs

180
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 2: in this lawsuit, Gregory Kanti and Warren Baylaw, are Nazis.

181
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 2: People throw that word around a lot, so I'll let

182
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 2: you hear it from them. Here's Warren on his own

183
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,520
Speaker 2: podcast explaining to his wife that they have a responsibility

184
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 2: to spread Hitler's message.

185
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 3: The fact is, the fact is, and we all know it.

186
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,959
Speaker 3: I think everybody who watches the show knows it. Hitler

187
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,439
Speaker 3: was a true patriot. He was a complete idealist, a

188
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,360
Speaker 3: entirely selfless man. He was also a genius, and he

189
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 3: was probably the greatest political leader that Europe has ever seen.

190
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,640
Speaker 2: And here's Greg in one of his many bizarre, straight

191
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 2: to camera short video rants from his social media.

192
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 4: The FBI is full of pedophiles, and our countries have.

193
00:12:54,559 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: Been ruled by twos phraars. And you think that that

194
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,959
Speaker 1: flag is the problem.

195
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,720
Speaker 2: You're not practical, You're just pussy.

196
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:14,920
Speaker 1: Hitler is our only hope.

197
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,679
Speaker 2: It was hard to find one of Greg's videos that

198
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,079
Speaker 2: clearly expressed his point of view, but that didn't also

199
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 2: contain so many slurs that it would become incomprehensible once

200
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,880
Speaker 2: I bleeped them out. But they're Nazis. These guys love Hitler.

201
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 2: They're like really obsessed with Hitler. Honestly, the Hitler worship

202
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,200
Speaker 2: here is actually kind of weird, even in their own

203
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 2: social circles. Warren Baylaw is actually a second generation National Socialist.

204
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 2: His father, Alan Baylaw, was a high ranking member with

205
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,040
Speaker 2: a National Alliance before Warren was even born. As for

206
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,600
Speaker 2: Greg Conti, he was coaching field hockey at a Catholic girls'

207
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,800
Speaker 2: school in Maryland before he was fired when the school

208
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 2: he was Richard Spencer's lackey. In twenty twenty, both Allan

209
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 2: and Warren Baylaw and Greg Conti were founding members of

210
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 2: a now defunct neo Nazi organization called the National Justice Party.

211
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:18,360
Speaker 2: And in twenty seventeen, Warren Baylaw and Gregory Kanti were

212
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,280
Speaker 2: inside the park when the Virginia State Police showed up

213
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,480
Speaker 2: a riot year to enforce that dispersal order. Daniel Schular,

214
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 2: a photojournalist taking pictures that day for the Tulsa World,

215
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 2: captured an image that shows both men right up against

216
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 2: the riot.

217
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 1: Shields on August.

218
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 2: Twelfth, twenty nineteen, the very last day of the two

219
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,840
Speaker 2: year statute of limitations to bring the claim under Virginia law,

220
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 2: the pair filed a federal civil rights lawsuit claiming that

221
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,920
Speaker 2: the police, the city, and the counter protesters had conspired

222
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 2: to deprive them of their right to hold that Nazi rally,

223
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 2: that by clearing the park, and that by refusing to

224
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 2: beat back the CA counter protesters on their behalf, the

225
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,160
Speaker 2: police had violated their First Amendment rights and denied them

226
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 2: their Fourteenth Amendment right to equal protection. There are some

227
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,320
Speaker 2: other more bizarre claims involving wild allegations of a criminal

228
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 2: conspiracy between Antifa and the government actors, but those rico

229
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 2: allegations aren't really worth getting into. It's very silly stuff.

230
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,520
Speaker 2: The underlying idea, quoting from the suit, defendants intentionally encouraged

231
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 2: and facilitated mob violence by counter protesters against lawful Unite

232
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 2: the Right demonstrators, creating a civil disturbance as a pretext

233
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,720
Speaker 2: to disperse the demonstrators before the Unite the Right rally began.

234
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 2: So they're saying that police didn't just let counter protesters

235
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 2: interfere with the rally. They're saying they think police set

236
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,040
Speaker 2: that up so they'd have an excuse to then crack

237
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 2: down on the Nazis.

238
00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 1: Quote.

239
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 2: Rather than applying simple and proven techniques such as allowing

240
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 2: Unite the Right demonstrators and counter protesters to use separate areas,

241
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 2: the defendants forced them together into a restricted space, then

242
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 2: deliberately communicated to counter protesters that attacks on Unite the

243
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 2: Right demonstrators would go unpunished. Predictably, and as defendants intended,

244
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 2: counter protesters attacked and assaulted United the Right demonstrators, and

245
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 2: the defendants used those violent attacks against lawful demonstrators as

246
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 2: a pretext to disperse the entire gathering. I mean, citation

247
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 2: needed for most of that. But here's the thing. No

248
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 2: one disputes that the police fucked up. The city admits it.

249
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 2: The police kind of admitted it. The independent review flawed

250
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,400
Speaker 2: as it was found that to be the case. Protesters

251
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 2: and counter protesters alike were dumbfounded by the complete and

252
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 2: total inaction of the police who just stood there and

253
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,920
Speaker 2: watched as the violence unfolded. People with blood running down

254
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 2: their faces were screaming at the police to do something, anything,

255
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 2: and they really did just stand there. That's not in dispute.

256
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,199
Speaker 2: The legal question here is not did they do that?

257
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:29,680
Speaker 2: But can they do that? And the answer is unequivocally yes,

258
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 2: yes they can. There isn't a law on the books

259
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,640
Speaker 2: or a decision in the case law that says they

260
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,239
Speaker 2: have to do a goddamn thing to help you. There

261
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,640
Speaker 2: are a disturbing number of cases bearing this out. There

262
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,280
Speaker 2: are cases in state courts like Loziito versus New York City.

263
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,879
Speaker 2: In February of twenty eleven, the NYPD was on a

264
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 2: manhunt for a man on a stabbing spree. He'd already

265
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 2: stabbed several people to death when he bore the train

266
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 2: that morning, Acting on a tip that the serial stabber

267
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 2: had been spotted on the subway platform, boarded the same train.

268
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 2: They saw the man they were looking for and recognized him,

269
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 2: but they would later say they thought he had a gun.

270
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,280
Speaker 2: Now again, he'd been on a stabbing spree for twenty

271
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 2: four hours. Do you think if he had a gun,

272
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 2: he might have I don't know, shot anyone prior to

273
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,879
Speaker 2: this moment rather than stabbing them all to death. But

274
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 2: they say they thought he had a gun. So they

275
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 2: locked themselves in the conductor's car and just watched through

276
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 2: the window as their suspect brutally stabbed a man on

277
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 2: the train repeatedly in the head, just a few feet

278
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 2: away from where they were standing, but the victim fought back.

279
00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 2: Joseph Lozito managed to pin his assailant to the ground

280
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 2: before losing consciousness from blood loss, and it was only

281
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,359
Speaker 2: after Lozito had disarmed and subdued his own attacker that

282
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 2: the police felt safe enough to come out and make

283
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 2: the arrest. But his lawsuit was dismissed. The judge acknowledged

284
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 2: that the attack was shocking and horrific, but quote, the

285
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 2: law is abundantly clear that no liability flows from negligence

286
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 2: and the performance of a police function unless there is

287
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 2: a special relationship. If you're not in their custody, you

288
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 2: aren't their problem. That example lives large in my mind

289
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 2: because it's just so immediate and clear cut, Like I

290
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: can imagine them with their little faces pressed up against

291
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 2: the train window, just watching this happen because they're afraid.

292
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: But that's a New York State court case, so it's

293
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,160
Speaker 2: not really binding here. But here are some that are.

294
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 5: This is case number zero four two seventy eight Town

295
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 5: of Castle Rock versus Gonzales I thought the Castle Rock

296
00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 5: was a nineteen twenties dance, but it's also a town

297
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 5: in Colorado. The cases here on rid of Cerchiarii to

298
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 5: the Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit. The facts

299
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 5: are truly horrible.

300
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 2: That is antonin Scalia making a little joke before announcing

301
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,160
Speaker 2: a decision. That should make you question what the courts

302
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,400
Speaker 2: think the police are even for. In two thousand and five,

303
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court ruled in Castle Rock ve. Gonzales that

304
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 2: the police in Castle Rock, Colorado, had no affirmative duty

305
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 2: to enforce a restraining order, and that their refusal to

306
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: do so had not violated Jessica Gonzalez's Fourteenth Amendment right

307
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 2: to equal protection. Jessica Gonzalez had a restraining order against

308
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 2: her estranged husband. He was not allowed near her or

309
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 2: her home, and he was only allowed limited contact with

310
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 2: their daughters. But one afternoon in nineteen ninety nine, he

311
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: kidnapped their three daughters. Jessica called the police. The officers

312
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 2: who responded to her call told her there was nothing

313
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 2: they could do about the restraining order, and they suggested

314
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 2: that her husband would probably bring the girls home later

315
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: in the evening. And she should just wait and if

316
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 2: the girls weren't back by ten pm, she could call

317
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: them again. Around eight thirty, she managed to get a

318
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: hold of her husband on the phone, and he told

319
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 2: her he had the girls at an amusement park in

320
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 2: a neighboring city. So she called the police again and

321
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 2: told them where he was and asked them to put

322
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 2: out an all points bulletin for the area with his

323
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 2: license plate number. They refused, and they told her again,

324
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: just wait till ten pm. They'll be home. She called

325
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 2: again at ten pm and they told her this time

326
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 2: to wait until midnight, So she went to her husband's

327
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,679
Speaker 2: apartment on her own and found nothing. She called the

328
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 2: police again at midnight. Finally she went to the police

329
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: station herself to try to talk to somebody in person,

330
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 2: and nobody cared. They just weren't interested in trying to

331
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 2: find her children or their father. But he found them.

332
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 2: At three am, Jessica Gonzalez's a strange husband showed up

333
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: at the police station with a gun. He'd purchased that

334
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: gun earlier that same evening, sometime after he abducted his daughters,

335
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 2: and certainly before he used it to murder them. After

336
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: police shot him dead inside the police station. They found

337
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 2: the girl's bodies outside in his truck.

338
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 5: We conclude that Colorado law did not give responded an

339
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 5: entitlement to enforcement of the restraining order.

340
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court ruled that there was nothing in the

341
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 2: law that required the police to enforce the restraining order,

342
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: and even if there were such a mandate, that wouldn't

343
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: give her the right to have it enforced. And even

344
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 2: if she did have the hypethetical right to have that

345
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 2: hypothetical mandate enforced, that right would have no monetary value.

346
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: So there's really no due process claim at issue here.

347
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: And then there's Toshaney the Winnebago decided by the Supreme

348
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 2: Court in nineteen eighty nine. This one doesn't actually involve

349
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: the police specifically, but it cited repeatedly in the lawsuits

350
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: we're talking about because it held that a government agency,

351
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: any government agency, although in this case it's the Department

352
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: of Social Services, has no affirmative duty to protect anyone

353
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: from any kind of harm that the government itself had

354
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 2: not created. Joshua D. Shaney was a four year old

355
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: boy whose father beat him so badly he was left

356
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: in a coma. And this was after Social services had

357
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 2: ignored reports of abuse for a year. When Joshua's stepmother

358
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 2: went to the police to report seeing the boy's father

359
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: hit him, they brushed her off and referred her to

360
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 2: social services, and so she made the report to Social services.

361
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: Neighbors seeing and hearing the toddler being beaten, and the

362
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: police sent them to social services. The boy was seen

363
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: in the emergency room three separate times, and doctors reported

364
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: seeing the signs of abuse to Social services all three times.

365
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: After the first hospital visit, the boy was briefly removed

366
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: from the home, but the state agency quickly returned him

367
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: to the custody of his abuser. A caseworker visited the

368
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: home at least twenty times, and her notes show that

369
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: she saw and documented signs of abuse, but no one

370
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 2: did anything. After Joshua was put into a coma by

371
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: his father's abuse, that social worker said, I just knew

372
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: the phone would ring some day and Joshua would be dead,

373
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: but she didn't do anything. The court ruled that only

374
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: Joshua's father could be held liable for the abuse, that

375
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: there was no liability for the state agency that repeatedly

376
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: returned the child to the custody of his abuser. Further,

377
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: the opinion says the state's failure to protect an individual

378
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 2: against private violence simply does not constitute a violation of

379
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: the due process claus The The Shainey case is cited

380
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 2: again and again in cases attempting to hold the police

381
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 2: or any government agency accountable or standing by and letting

382
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 2: people get hurt. Because the state is not required to

383
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 2: help you, they can't be held liable for anything that

384
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: happens to you simply because they actively chose not to intervene.

385
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: The only real exception to that rule are if you

386
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: are in state custody or if the dangerous situation was

387
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: created by that state actor. There are a nauseating number

388
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: of cases establishing the parameters here, but I'll just give

389
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: you one more. Kantie and Baila filed their suit in Virginia,

390
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: so when it was dismissed, they appealed it to the

391
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, And there is a Fourth

392
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 2: Circuit Court of Appeals case that flushes out their interpretation

393
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 2: of Toshaney. A nineteen ninety five opinion in the case

394
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: of Carol Pinder the officer Donald Johnson. In nineteen eighty nine,

395
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: Carol Pinder called the police. Her abusive ex boyfriend, Don

396
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: Pittman had broken into her home and he was punching

397
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: her and breaking things and threatening to kill her and

398
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: her children. The officer who responded to her call took

399
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 2: Pittman into custody and assured Carol Pinder that he would

400
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: be locked up overnight until he could be brought before

401
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: a judge in the morning. She specifically asked she was

402
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: concerned about going to work that evening because Pittman had

403
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: threatened her before. He'd actually only just been released from jail.

404
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: He'd been convicted of attempt at arson for trying to

405
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: set her house on fire just ten months earlier. The

406
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: officer specifically told Carol Pinder that Pittman would be in

407
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: jail all night and that she wouldn't be able to

408
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: file her complaint until tomorrow morning anyway, so she went

409
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: to work. She went to work that evening because the

410
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: officer promised her that this man would be in jail

411
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 2: until tomorrow morning, when she could speak to the judge.

412
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: But Pittman was released within hours, and while she was

413
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: at work that evening, Pittman set Carol Pinder's house on fire,

414
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: just like he promised. He would do just like he'd

415
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: done once before, and her three children were inside. All

416
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: three of those children died in the fire, and that

417
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: fire was set just eighteen days after the Supreme Court

418
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: decided the Toshaney case, and the Fourth Circuit cites to

419
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: Shaney throughout their opinion. In Pinder, there are only two

420
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: situations where the police officer would have any affirmative duty

421
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: to protect anyone. One is if there is a custodial relationship.

422
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: If you are in their custody, they're a little bit

423
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 2: responsible for your safety. So if Carol Pinder had been,

424
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: for instance, in the county jail, the police would be

425
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: responsible if her ex murdered her. But making a promise

426
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: to Carol Pinder meant nothing. Promises aren't legally binding. Again

427
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: from the opinion quote, state actors may not disclaim liability

428
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: when they themselves throw others to the lions. They do not,

429
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: by contrast, in title persons who rely on pises of

430
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: aid to some greater degree of protection from lions at large.

431
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: And that's the second exception from the Dushaney case. Right,

432
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 2: they can't throw you to the lions, meaning they can't

433
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: create circumstances that directly cause harm to come to you

434
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: at the hands of someone else, and that's what's called

435
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: the state created danger doctrine. On that front, the Fourth

436
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: Circuit is pretty clear. They wrote in twenty nineteen that

437
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: they've never written in an opinion recognizing the validity of

438
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: such a claim. It's a very high bar to clear

439
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: in the opinion of the Fourth Circuit, so high in fact,

440
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: that despite their claim that they believe it is a

441
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: valid hypothetical legal idea, it's never actually happened in the

442
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: Fourth Circuit. There are examples in other jurisdictions, but honestly,

443
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: reading these examples, I don't understand why the police in

444
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: these cases are more liable than in some cases. Is

445
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: where the court found that they weren't. There are several

446
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: cases involving people who were very intoxicated. So in one case,

447
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: someone was pulled over while driving drunk, and the officer

448
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: took the driver, who was intoxicated, into custody and they

449
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: took his keys, but the female passenger in the car,

450
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: who was not drunk, was not allowed to have the

451
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: keys to drive herself home. They just left her on

452
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: the side of the road and she was subsequently raped

453
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: and she was able to successfully sue those police officers,

454
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: saying they were responsible for this state created danger. She

455
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: would not have been there alone on the side of

456
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: the road with no transportation if the police had not

457
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: arrested the driver of the vehicle for being intoxicated and

458
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: left her without a way to get home. There was

459
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: another case where police responded to a dispute at a

460
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: bar and they threw one man out, took away his

461
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: key so that he couldn't drive home, and they wouldn't

462
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: let him back in, so he couldn't drive home, and

463
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: he couldn't come inside, and they didn't offer to take

464
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: him home. So he's just out there in the cold

465
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: at night in jeans and a T shirt, and he

466
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: did eventually die of hypothermia. And in that case, too,

467
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: the police were found to be responsible for having created

468
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 2: the dangerous circumstances in which harm came to him. So

469
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: it does happen. I'm not saying it's never happened. I'm

470
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: just saying the Fourth Circuit says they've never seen it.

471
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: All the cases the Fourth Circuit recognizes where a state

472
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: actor can be said to have had an affirmative duty

473
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: to anyone were cases where the injured party was in

474
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: police custody. A Fourth Circuit ruling in dove Rosa in

475
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen further clarified their view of what constitutes state

476
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: created danger. Quote, the state, through its affirmative acts, must

477
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: itself create the dangerous situation that resulted in the victim's injury.

478
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: No constitutional liability exists where the state actors had no

479
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: hand in creating the danger, but simply stood by and

480
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: did nothing when suspicious circumstances dictated a more active role

481
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: for them. So deliberate indifference, just standing there and watching

482
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: harm come to someone and choosing to do nothing, that

483
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: doesn't rise to the level of actively creating the harmful circumstance.

484
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: Because doing nothing isn't doing something. Doing nothing is not

485
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: an action, So the act of doing nothing does not

486
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 2: constitute the affirmative step of taking an action. That sounds

487
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: like meaningless circular reasoning, but I promise you that comes

488
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: back again. The act of doing nothing is not legally

489
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: an action at all, And that probably feels like a

490
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: lot of extraneous detail. But all of this has been

491
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: to say that anyone filing a lawsuit anywhere in the

492
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: United States is going to face a steep uphill battle

493
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: if they're trying to prove that the government had any response.

494
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: It's ability to prevent harm caused by a non state actor.

495
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: The state can't violate your right to free speech, but

496
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: they don't have to help you speak. The state can't

497
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: burn your house down, but they don't have to stop

498
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: your ex from doing it. The state can't deny you

499
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 2: the right to hold your demonstration, but they can just

500
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: stand there and watch as the situation becomes too unsafe

501
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: to allow it to continue. And that legal battle would

502
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 2: be even steeper here in the Fourth Circuit, where the

503
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: Rosa and Pinder cases were decided. The Fourth Circuit does

504
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: not believe that it is possible for the state actor

505
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: to be responsible for any dangerous situation unless the injured

506
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: party was already in their custody. And by the time

507
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: greg Contein warren Bylaw filed this suit in twenty nineteen,

508
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: they had every reason to know it was a waste

509
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: of time. They may not have been familiar with the

510
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: case law, and they didn't have the money to hire

511
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 2: an attorney, but they did ask a friend who is

512
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: a lawyer to ghost write their complaint, and they surely

513
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: knew that other lawsuits making the exact same claims about

514
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: the exact same events had already been dismissed by the

515
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: same court. Kanti and bylaw filed their suit pro say,

516
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: meaning without a lawyer, and prose litigans are given a

517
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: lot of leeway by the court because they don't have

518
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: a lawyer's help. Their filings are interpreted much more charitably,

519
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: but they aren't allowed to secretly have a lawyer who

520
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: helps them in order to have it both ways, to

521
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: both have legal counsel and be afforded the leniency granted

522
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: to those who don't. Technically, though, you can get a

523
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: lawyer to ghost write your lawsuit and then just sort

524
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: of proceed from there. It's not preferred. Some jurisdictions require

525
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: you to disclose it, and most would prefer it, but

526
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: the ethics committees in many jurisdictions have said, yeah, yeah,

527
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: you can do this. And because Kanti and Beylaw accidentally

528
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: filed their lawsuit in the wrong jurisdiction, they originally filed

529
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: their suit in a district whose local rules do require

530
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 2: you to submit a signed form disclosing that you had

531
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: a ghostwriter. So I know that they asked their friend

532
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: Augustus Sole Invictus to draft this complaint, which again they

533
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: then filed in the wrong jurisdiction. In addition to being

534
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: an attorney, Augustus Invictus was a scheduled speaker at the

535
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: United the Right rally, and he's had some legal troubles

536
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: of his own in the years since. Who's recently convicted

537
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: of a felony for intimidating a group of college students

538
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: as part of a mob of torch wielding white supremacists,

539
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: But more relevant to the story at hand, After drafting

540
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: that complaint for Beilan Kanti back in twenty nineteen, he

541
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: was wasn't really very available to keep helping them out.

542
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: He was arrested in December of twenty nineteen for allegedly

543
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 2: abducting his wife at gunpoint because she was trying to

544
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: leave him. According to her own sworn statements in later proceedings,

545
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: she was coerced into not testifying at trial, so he

546
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: was never convicted on those charges. But at the time,

547
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: back in early twenty twenty, he was pretty preoccupied with

548
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: his own problems, so Kanti and Baila were kind of

549
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: on their own and it was truly a hopeless case.

550
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: By early twenty twenty, when it came time for the

551
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: pair to try to write some motions in their case,

552
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 2: the same court that would be reading those motions had

553
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: already dismissed four separate lawsuits making the same argument. Well,

554
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: four lawsuits, I guess were two in some change, because

555
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: one of those plaintiffs kept rears changing his claim, and

556
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 2: he filed three separate, slightly different cases. But the first

557
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: lawsuit brought before the federal court in the Western District

558
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: of Virginia that claimed that the police violated people's rights

559
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: by allowing the violence is the only one of those

560
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: cases that was filed by a counter protester. Robert Turner

561
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: was protesting the Nazi rally when he was pepper sprayed

562
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: and physically assaulted while police just stood there and watched.

563
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: Turner's lawyer seems to have been at least marginally more

564
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: competent than either Jason Kessler or Warren Baylaw's lawyers, so

565
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: he did come prepared to make an argument for state

566
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 2: created danger, alleging there had been a stand down order

567
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: given to all police on sen ahead of time. It

568
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 2: is alleged in the suit, and to some degree widely

569
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: believed in the community, that the officers had been instructed

570
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: ahead of time to do nothing, to just let the

571
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: violence happen. And that's a controversial theory. Does it feel true?

572
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: Kind of? Yeah.

573
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, There's a lot of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that

574
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: makes it feel very possible. No evidence was ever produced

575
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: that proved or disproved that any actual standdown order was

576
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: ever given by any police agency to its officers ahead of.

577
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: Time that day.

578
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: Both the city and state police have categorically denied it.

579
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: Two witnesses, though, a police captain and the police chief's

580
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: personal assistant, confirm that after the violence began they did

581
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: hear Police Chief Al Thomas say let them fight. It'll

582
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: make it easier to declare an unlawful assembly, which is

583
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: pretty damning. But it wasn't given as a demand that

584
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: was then disseminated to officers on scene, and by the

585
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: time he said it, it's already what was happening. Whether

586
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: that was the plan or not, there are scores of

587
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: eyewitness accounts, sworn statements, police after action interviews, and video

588
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: from police body cameras that prove that officers were unwilling

589
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: to act. We don't know why people approached lines of

590
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: cops begging them for help, and the officers just stood

591
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: there in silence. Other officers curtly answered that they would

592
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: intervene if and when commanded to do so, but they

593
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't say what it would take for that command to happen.

594
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 2: Some officers reported being uncertain about what they were expected

595
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: to do or unwilling to risk their safety in a

596
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: volatile situation. Some of the police department employees whod been

597
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: deployed to hold intersections where the roads had been closed

598
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: weren't even sworn police officers, so they didn't carry weapons.

599
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 2: Whether this impacts how you feel about it or not,

600
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: the fact is a lot of them were scared. Whether

601
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: or not an actual standdown order had been issued that

602
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: morning was, according to Turner's lawsuit, an issue of fact

603
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: that could be determined a trial, But in alleging it,

604
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 2: they sought to establish something important. If true, Their argument

605
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: is that this constitute's state created danger. The dangerous situation

606
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: was the direct result of an order given by the

607
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: police chief, an order that was then carried out by

608
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: the police officers that sounds like it could pass the

609
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: test right. The police directly contributed to the danger by

610
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: following the order to stand down. But that's not how

611
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: the court felt. In the original opinion dismissing Turner's case,

612
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: Judge Norman Moon wrote, the incident in terms of a

613
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: standdown order is nothing more than an artful re characterization

614
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: of inaction as action, and the Fourth Circuit agreed with

615
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: him on appeal. The law has clearly established that in

616
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: action is not enough. Now they're clarifying that the act

617
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: of ordering in action ahead of time doesn't count as

618
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: taking in action at all. That's still just in action.

619
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 1: Baffling.

620
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: The next three lawsuits all came from one man, Jason Kessler,

621
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: the permit holder for the rally, and what bore you

622
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: to death at this point, because the three lawsuits are

623
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: all slightly different. In two of them, he convinced other

624
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: rally participants to add their names as coplain to one

625
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: of them.

626
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: It's just him.

627
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 2: The first time around, he only sued the city, but

628
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: in the second two lawsuits he's adding various city officials

629
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: and police agencies and the claims of all the little

630
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: bit as he goes too. But the strategy is pretty

631
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: much the same throughout. Instead of trying to argue that

632
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: what happened does meet the legal standard under Dashenyan Pinder

633
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: just don't mention it at all and hope no one

634
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: else does either, And so instead he relies on an

635
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: argument about the Heckler's veto, which is the situation that's

636
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 2: created where the state infringes on someone's free speech because

637
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: their speech is potentially very unpopular and they're worried that

638
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: there will be counter protesting that becomes disruptive. So in

639
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: order to prevent a disruption by people who oppose the speaker,

640
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 2: they simply prevent the speaker from speaking, And of course

641
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 2: they can't do that, right. The city couldn't have legally

642
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 2: denied him the permit just because they were worried the

643
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: counter protest might turn violent. They tried to do that,

644
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: and a federal court issued an injunction and gave him

645
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: the permit back. So that's not what happened. He had

646
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: the permit, and it also would have been a violation

647
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: of his rights and the rights of the other attendees

648
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: at his Nazi rally if the police had responded to

649
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: the disorder by merely removing them from the area, if

650
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: only they were made to leave and everyone else was

651
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: allowed to stay. Kessler suits alleged that the declaration of

652
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: the unlawful assembly was discriminatory because it was motivated by

653
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: the content of the speech at the rally. So he's

654
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: saying that only rally attendees were made to leave the park. Well,

655
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: only rally attendees were inside the park, and the park

656
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: was cleared. It was a very violent, but viewpoint neutral

657
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 2: barrage of pepper spray. So I won't say nobody's rights

658
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: got violated. I think some people's rights got a little violated.

659
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 2: But jas Sain Kessler failed to convince the court in

660
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: three separate lawsuits and one appeal that his First Amendment

661
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: rights were infringed upon in this particular way. The opinion

662
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: from the appeals court is brief, noting succinctly that the

663
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: rally goers were engaged in violence prior to the dispersal

664
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: order and quote. Kessler's complaint lacks any plausible allegation that

665
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: the unlawful assembly declaration and the dispersal order discriminated based

666
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: on content, So everybody had to leave.

667
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: It was fair.

668
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: And as much as Kessler's suit tries to dance around

669
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: having to argue against the precedent, said into Cheney, that's

670
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: where we end up. The lower court opinion says it

671
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: plainly the cases he tried to cite don't really apply.

672
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: He had his permit, the state hadn't proactively prevented him

673
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: from holding the event out of fear of public hostility quote,

674
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 2: but the law is clear that defendants had no constitutional

675
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 2: obligation to prevent that public hostility. I mean, for God's sake,

676
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: If the law says the police don't have to do

677
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 2: anything to stop three children from dying in a house fire,

678
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: even if they promised those children's mother that they wouldn't

679
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 2: let the man who'd previously set their house on fire

680
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: out of jail after he threatened to set their house

681
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: on fire again, then why would that same law entitle

682
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 2: you to proactive police protection to give Nazi salutes in

683
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: a public park. There is no constitutional right to police

684
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: protection from getting heckled. You can't sue the city because

685
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: everyone hated your Nazi rally. You very well could have

686
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 2: had your Nazi rally if the guys you invited to

687
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: the Nazi rally hadn't started brutalizing members of the clergy

688
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: in the middle of the goddamn street before it even started.

689
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 2: But now I'm editorializing so by the time Greg Kantian

690
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: Warren Baylaw file their version of this same suit, Robert

691
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: Turner's suit has already been not only dismissed, but the

692
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: dismissal was upheld on appeal. Again, that's the only one

693
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: of these suits that was brought by a counter protest or,

694
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: so the court is being I guess you could say fair.

695
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: That doesn't feel right, but the court is saying that

696
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: the cops are allowed to watch everybody get their ass

697
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: beat in the streets. It's content neutral. And Jason Kessler

698
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: has had two suits dismissed already, and he filed his

699
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 2: third lawsuit the same day that Kanti and Baylaw filed THEIRS,

700
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: because it was the last day under the statute of

701
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: limitations to file anything related to that day. But Kanti

702
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: and BiLaw accidentally filed THEIRS in the wrong jurisdiction, so

703
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: by the time it gets transferred to the right court

704
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: almost a year later, Kessler's third and final lawsuit has

705
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: already been torn to shreds and it's been dismissed.

706
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: So all the arguments have been made more than once.

707
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 2: There isn't much to gain by throwing the same shit

708
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 2: at the wall. Just to see if it's going to

709
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 2: stick this time, but they did it anyway.

710
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 3: So we just did a scattershot thing and sued everybody

711
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: that we thought that we could we could possibly sue,

712
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 3: and then shoot first, asked questions later. The initial complaint,

713
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 3: Greg Contey and I had help from Augustus and Victus

714
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 3: putting it together. But then we've had a lot of

715
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 3: help with other.

716
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: People and they lost too.

717
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: By twenty twenty three, when the case was finally dismissed,

718
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: Warren Beylaw and Greg Conti weren't even really friends anymore.

719
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 2: The chaotic end of their short lived Neo Nazi political

720
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 2: party and the still unresolved allegations that maybe somebody in

721
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 2: leadership stole tens of thousands of dollars in member donations

722
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,959
Speaker 2: is a story for some other day, But in twenty

723
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: twenty three, it's just Warren Beylaw who files to appeal

724
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 2: the decision, and now he finally has a lawyer, Glenn Allen.

725
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: When the Fourth Circuit finally upheld the dismissal laws lawsuit

726
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,959
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, the opinion takes the case point

727
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: by point. You don't always get that in an appellate decision,

728
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: but I guess they just wanted to make things abundantly

729
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: clear because these guys were obviously having trouble understanding the rulings.

730
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 2: It's actually kind of brutal in that detached, icy way

731
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: that legal professionals sometimes eviscerate each other. I'll put it

732
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: in the show notes, but i won't get too deep

733
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 2: into it, because I'm willing to admit that not everyone

734
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: is going to find it as exciting as I did.

735
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: The opinion opens with a question. This appeal asks a

736
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 2: straightforward legal question, does the First Amendment protect speech amid violence?

737
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 2: More specifically, does the First Amendment obligate police officers to

738
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: protect the constitutional rights of protesters amid violence. We've already

739
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: suggested that the answer is no, and the citation they

740
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,479
Speaker 2: give for this is their own prior ruling in Jason

741
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: Kessler's lawsuit, which makes the same arguments about the same facts.

742
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: And the opinion continues Warren Baylaw asks that we hold otherwise,

743
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: and after a brief summary of the facts in the case,

744
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: the opinion reads, maylaw would have us seize on these

745
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 2: facts to transform the First Amendment from a shield to

746
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: guard against invasive speech regulations into a sword to wield

747
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 2: against violent speech disruptions. We declined to forge such a weapon.

748
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 2: Glen Allen was still representing We're in baylaw when they

749
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: tried to get this case in front of the Supreme

750
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: Court earlier this year. And I know that Glen Allen

751
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: knows that the police don't have an affirmative duty to

752
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: protect anyone, because until he got fired for being a

753
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 2: neo Nazi, he was working as a defense attorney representing

754
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: the Baltimore Police Department. So I have to imagine working

755
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: for a notoriously brutal and corrupt police department in the

756
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, I have to imagine he

757
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: was familiar with cases liked Shaneyy Whin a Bagehope in

758
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 2: der Vy Johnson, and Castle Rockvey Gonzalez. But he pretends

759
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 2: not to be writing This breaks perhaps the most fundamental

760
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: pact citizens have with their government. We grant a monopoly

761
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: on violence to the sovereign in exchange for which it

762
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: assumes the duty to provide basic protection to life and limb.

763
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: Once that duty is wilfully abandoned, there is no telling

764
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: where the trouble ends. Well, Glen, I have some shocking

765
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 2: news for you that pact has been broken. There is

766
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: no pact that the state will protect your life and limb.

767
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: What he's saying is that his client is the victim.

768
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: All the men in that park were just innocently expressing

769
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 2: their First Amendment rights and I didn't want to hurt anyone.

770
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: They trusted that if someone needed to be hurt, the

771
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 2: government would do it for them.

772
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 1: Quote.

773
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: Those citizens who are targeted by both criminal miscreants and

774
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: corrupt government are placed between Scylla and charybdis. Upon seeing

775
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: that their government has relinquished the monopoly on violence, they

776
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 2: have two options. They can resort to self help and

777
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: take matters into their own hands where they can take

778
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 2: a beating.

779
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: They had to do it, you see.

780
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: They had to punch, kickshove, choke, beat, bludget a maze

781
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: all of those people. They were defending themselves. Never mind

782
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: the videos that show them organizing themselves into little raiding parties,

783
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: departing the safety of the park to dart out into

784
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: the streets to try to get a few hits in.

785
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: But why not? Why did they try to hurt people?

786
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 2: I know?

787
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 5: Why?

788
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 2: Why appeal a case that can't win, a case that's

789
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: already been argued from every angle, based on the exact

790
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: same underlying to the exact same judge. Why even after

791
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: the Fourth Circuit ruled against him, do they bother trying

792
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: to get it in front of the Supreme Court. I mean,

793
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: I know political wins have shifted and everything's upside down now.

794
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 2: I'm not so naive that I'm saying there's no sliver

795
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: of hope that maybe the Supreme Court would throw a

796
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 2: Nazia bone just for fun. I could see why they'd

797
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: be hopeful, but even the most optimistic fascist surely understands

798
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 2: that as much as the current administration might enjoy their

799
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: willingness to fight the race war, there's just no political

800
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: utility in upsetting the settled case law that keeps cops

801
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: safe from having to do the thing we all like

802
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: to imagine, therefore.

803
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: Protecting and serving.

804
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: But they weren't really fighting to win, were they. I mean,

805
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: some of the arguments being made might lead you to

806
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 2: believe that they don't know what they're talking about, And

807
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 2: maybe some of that really was since year and they

808
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 2: thought it would work, But mostly they knew it was symbolic.

809
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: After the Supreme Court denied their petition last month, Baylaw

810
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: finished his rambling substack posts with this message. Lastly, I

811
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: would like to thank every last man and woman who

812
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: attended the United the Right rally on August eleven and twelfth,

813
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. This lawsuit was a symbolic fight for all

814
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 2: the young men who sacrificed more at Charlesville than I did,

815
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: All those who spent years in prison, who had their

816
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: careers and reputations destroyed, who ended their own lives, who

817
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: still have the threat of imprisonment hanging over their heads.

818
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:44,439
Speaker 2: For all their sakes, it was worth it. Just days

819
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 2: after the United the Right rally, all the way back

820
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: in August of twenty seventeen, Beyla wrote an essay for

821
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: Richard Spencer's alright dot com.

822
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: The post ends.

823
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 2: With we have with us the awakened fury of the

824
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 2: force which created and built the United States, the righteous

825
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 2: anger of white men who will not let tyranny tried

826
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 2: on our rights any longer. They don't think it was fair.

827
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what the law says. There are white men.

828
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: They invented the Western world. They created this system of laws,

829
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: or whatever those laws by definition exist for them. The

830
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: court must simply be confused or corrupt, probably corrupt.

831
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: It was a.

832
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: Setup, a cover up, a conspiracy against them. It was

833
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 2: the Jews, it was the communists. It isn't fair. As

834
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 2: Jason Kessler said in an interview with Warren Baylaw last

835
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: year on the seventh anniversary of that deadly Nazi.

836
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 4: Rally, I mean, it's the right thing to do. It's

837
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 4: what a real political movement does. It's what real activists do.

838
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 4: They don't just give up and move on. They try

839
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 4: and fight to the name. And the truth is is,

840
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 4: you know, we should have won those suits.

841
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: They have to fight back.

842
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: They're all quite sure that they've been wronged, and they

843
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 2: just can't let it go. I guess, to be fair,

844
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 2: neither can I. For eight years, I've been trying to

845
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,479
Speaker 2: sort out what really happens when a Nazi rally comes

846
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 2: to town. I've got a hard drive full of photos

847
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 2: and videos, diagrams and annotated images, thousands of pages of

848
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 2: court documents, half a dozen spiral notebooks with my own

849
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: handwritten court room notes. I've written about it for publications,

850
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 2: for my own website, and for podcasts. I've live tweeted

851
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: a month long trial, and I still don't really know

852
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 2: the answer. This may be the only thing the court

853
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 2: has been one hundred percent clear and consistent on. You

854
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 2: absolutely do not have any right to expect a cop

855
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 2: to help you if he doesn't feel like it, not

856
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: even if he promised, not even if it would be

857
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: easy for him to do it, not even if it

858
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: would save your life. It's not a violation of anyone's

859
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: rights for a public servant to stand completely still and

860
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 2: watch you die. It's a little bit funny to see crime.

861
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 2: Maybe Nazis sending themselves into hysterics insisting that they have

862
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: a constitutional right to see Kyle in the park with

863
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: police protection. They're not entitled to that protection, but neither

864
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 2: are you. Neither were my neighbors who were beaten in

865
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: the streets. Neither were Jessica Gonzalez's daughters or Carol Pinder's children.

866
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 2: The police have absolutely no duty to protect us. They

867
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 2: have plenty of power to hurt us, and they're well

868
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: within the bounds of the law to passively create conditions

869
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 2: where neo Nazis are free to hurt us with impunity.

870
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: They may have no duty to us, but please try

871
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 2: to remember we all have a duty to each other,

872
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: so be good to your neighbors and keep each other safe.

873
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 2: Weird Little Guys the same production of Pool Zone Media

874
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. It's research, written and recorded by me, Molly Conger.

875
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The

876
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: show is edited by the wildly talented Mary Gigan. The

877
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: theme music was composed by Brad Dickert. You can email

878
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: me at Weird Little Guys podcast at gmail dot com.

879
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: I will definitely read it, but I probably won't answer it.

880
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 2: It's nothing personal. I don't answer any of my emails.

881
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other

882
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 2: listeners on the Weird Little Guys supreddit. Just don't most

883
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 2: anything that's going to make you on my words, Little

884
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: Guys

885
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: Mhm