1
00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,800
Speaker 1: For more than a decade now, maybe more than two decades,

2
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 1: people have been talking about how the thing stopping us

3
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 1: from acting on the climate crisis. It's not so much

4
00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:17,360
Speaker 1: science or technology. It's not about understanding the problem or

5
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,479
Speaker 1: even having the technology to do something about it, but

6
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,919
Speaker 1: about political will. We have enough data. We know how

7
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions change the atmosphere, we know how they'll

8
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 1: continue to change it, we know what the impacts of

9
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,519
Speaker 1: those changes will be. We know that human activity is

10
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 1: the largest source of those gases by far, and we

11
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 1: have all sorts of good and viable options for doing

12
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:49,440
Speaker 1: things differently, and yet no government on Earth has managed

13
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:54,360
Speaker 1: to do what's required to adequately address this problem, and

14
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,160
Speaker 1: every international body form to deal with it remains hopelessly

15
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,000
Speaker 1: incapable of doing so. In a few months, I'll be

16
00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 1: headed to the thirtieth Conference of the Parties, the annual

17
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,120
Speaker 1: Climate Summit that brings together all the members of the

18
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 1: UN Framework on Climate Change Convention, and ask them to

19
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: figure out a way to work together.

20
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 2: On this problem.

21
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,760
Speaker 1: We've covered the crisis of legitimacy facing that body before,

22
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 1: but it's more dire than ever right now, and it

23
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: does not help that the US has adopted the Toddler

24
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,240
Speaker 1: approach to climate change, pretending it isn't there and hoping

25
00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 1: that does the trick. And the lead up to the conference,

26
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 1: I got my hands on a new books that's been

27
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 1: pulled together by the Climate Social Science Network at Brown University.

28
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 1: It's an exhaustive global survey of the pure viewed research

29
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 1: on climate obstruction. Which might sound boring and academic, but

30
00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:52,960
Speaker 1: if you're a listener to this show, you know that

31
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 1: I love to nerd out on some social science. This

32
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: is the first book of its kind because climate obstruction

33
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 1: is a relatively new field of research and it is fascinating.

34
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,600
Speaker 1: It's also a really good way to prep for all

35
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,079
Speaker 1: the nonsense we're about to see it this year's cop

36
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 1: in Brazil, So prep with me. I'm reading the book

37
00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: before I go and talking to some of the researchers

38
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,320
Speaker 1: who worked on it to get a sense of where

39
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 1: we're at while we're here, and what the heck might

40
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 1: work to get us unstuck. I'm Amy Westerbelt. Welcome to

41
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: a new season of Drilled. We're calling it obstruction today.

42
00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,559
Speaker 1: Welcome to the world of obstruction.

43
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 3: So I'm tim Ands Roberts, I'm professor at Brown University

44
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 3: and director of the Climate Social Science Network. Climate Social

45
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,240
Speaker 3: Science Network is a network of eight hundred more than

46
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,720
Speaker 3: eight hundred scholars. We're now in forty nine countries. So

47
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,239
Speaker 3: this is a group that's people who study sort of

48
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,160
Speaker 3: the politics of climate change, and especially we're focused on

49
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 3: who is blocking action on climate change. Our theory of

50
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,120
Speaker 3: change is that we've failed largely at addressing climate change

51
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 3: because we didn't understand the opposition that we faced, and

52
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 3: we were quite naive about that.

53
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,160
Speaker 4: I'm Jennifer jack Quett. I'm a professor at the University

54
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,240
Speaker 4: of Miami and I'm also the research associate Research director

55
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 4: at the Climate Social Science Network, headquartered at Brown University.

56
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 5: Christian Downey, I'm professor at the Strand National University in Canberra.

57
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,840
Speaker 6: And they were joined also by Carlos Malani, professor of

58
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 6: International Relations at Rio de Janeiro State University and coordinator

59
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 6: of the university's Interdisciplinary Observatory on Climate Change, who was

60
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 6: having some Wi fi issues, because hey, that's life these days.

61
00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 7: Let's start with the most basically question, Can I have

62
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 7: you give me a quick definition of climate obstruction?

63
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 4: Is?

64
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,320
Speaker 7: What is this thing we're talking about.

65
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 4: In the book, we define climate obstruction as intentional actions

66
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 4: and efforts to slow or block policies on climate change,

67
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 4: and we've focused on twenty fifteen onwards or the sort

68
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,839
Speaker 4: of post Paris agreement world.

69
00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,440
Speaker 7: I'm glad that you mentioned this about the reason that

70
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 7: we haven't acted has a lot to do with not

71
00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 7: understanding the opposition, because it leads right into my next question,

72
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,279
Speaker 7: which is that you start with this framing of you know,

73
00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,880
Speaker 7: we're not behind on or not acting on climate just

74
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 7: because of you know, these various things that people have

75
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,000
Speaker 7: pointed to in terms of, you know, issues with neoliberalism

76
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 7: or democracy, but also because of this concerted effort to

77
00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 7: obstruct climate action. I think it's it's so important to

78
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,960
Speaker 7: have it spelled out, and it's it's one of those

79
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,479
Speaker 7: things that seems but I've never seen it in a

80
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 7: paper before. So can you talk a little bit about

81
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 7: why it's important to have this really explicitly stated and supported,

82
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 7: and how important a contribution you think this volume will

83
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 7: be to this kind of larger understanding of the issue.

84
00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I'm going to start again on this, and

85
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 3: I promise I won't be the dominating the conversation so

86
00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 3: much later on, But these are really to me a

87
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,280
Speaker 3: key change in the way we're starting to think about

88
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,280
Speaker 3: why we're not acting on climate change. And we just

89
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,159
Speaker 3: here again and again that oh, humans are selfish, or

90
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 3: the science isn't there, the technology of renewable energy just

91
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:45,560
Speaker 3: is lame, and it's you know, intermittent and unreliable. That

92
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:51,400
Speaker 3: our democracy can't function dealing with hard problems, or that

93
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 3: neoliberalism is this economic system that drive us to make

94
00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:00,480
Speaker 3: short term decisions. Or our religion, our religious base and

95
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 3: other cultural beliefs are such that we can't solve big problems.

96
00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:11,120
Speaker 3: But we have solved big problems in the past, acid, rain, ozone, lead,

97
00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,279
Speaker 3: and asbestos. Those are just the environmental examples, but we

98
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 3: have many others that our societies have risen to the

99
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,040
Speaker 3: challenge of. And I think this case is different because

100
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,400
Speaker 3: we've had a leading industry, the largest industry in the

101
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,480
Speaker 3: history of humankind, oil and gas and coal. The fossil

102
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 3: fuel industries have learned from those past regulatory efforts and said,

103
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,039
Speaker 3: wait a minute, we don't have an alternative. We're just

104
00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,480
Speaker 3: going to fight it and block any effort to really

105
00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 3: seriously address climate change, and their strategies were sophisticated. They

106
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,840
Speaker 3: were tailored for every political context in the world, you know,

107
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,240
Speaker 3: for every town or US state or subregion to nations

108
00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 3: and un negotiations as we'll talk about, and then even

109
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 3: in the same countries, the strateg these change as the

110
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 3: president changes or as you know, political winds shift. So

111
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,359
Speaker 3: you know, that's sort of answering your first question on

112
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 3: you know why is you know, what's what's new here

113
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,119
Speaker 3: on why it's important to say it's not inevitable again

114
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 3: that it's pretty fatalistic to say that humans can't solve

115
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 3: big problems, so just throw up your hands. So we've

116
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,080
Speaker 3: got to address this problem. And the insights from learning

117
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 3: about obstruction offers new knowledge about how we might actually

118
00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 3: counter it. And I would really ask my colleagues to

119
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 3: help me on this, But I think this volume is

120
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 3: a quantum leap. We've never had a really global look.

121
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 3: We have one hundred and ten of the world's scholars.

122
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,480
Speaker 3: I mean, the list of people involved in this book

123
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,440
Speaker 3: is really a who's who in this area of climate

124
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,920
Speaker 3: politics research. And you know, we have a far range

125
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,600
Speaker 3: of a far wider range of sectors that we're just

126
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,520
Speaker 3: starting to understand we have all these topics and we

127
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 3: pulled together a bunch of work, which is a lot

128
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 3: of which is original. So there's we've never had anything

129
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 3: like this, and I'm really quite excited to have this

130
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:06,640
Speaker 3: thing coming out.

131
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 4: And I guess I would just add there amy that

132
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 4: it was so exciting to be scholars and professors and

133
00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 4: see the coalescence around a subfield that is climate obstruction globally.

134
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,040
Speaker 4: And you know, we've learned a lot about the history

135
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,400
Speaker 4: of climate science. We understand that these companies largely understood

136
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 4: climate science in the early even in the early twentieth

137
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,920
Speaker 4: century potentially, but we don't see the first example of

138
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 4: actual climate obstruction until nineteen eighty with the American Petroleum Institute.

139
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:38,360
Speaker 3: We only know.

140
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 4: About that now because of great reporting and digging done

141
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 4: by civil society and journalists in the nineties. And then

142
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 4: this field is really born in the late nineties and

143
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 4: early two thousands in terms of having academics and scholarly attention.

144
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,520
Speaker 4: And so now in twenty twenty five, we finally see

145
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 4: enough research come together to just to find a global

146
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 4: volume like this that I just think is really really exciting,

147
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,199
Speaker 4: and we did learn a lot of new things along

148
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 4: the way, and.

149
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,080
Speaker 2: I think there's yet another issue that should be mentioned.

150
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 2: I think this umbrella concept like climate obstruction is important

151
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 2: because it shows how climate policies are not only a

152
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,240
Speaker 2: sectual policy. I mean, climate policies at the beginning were

153
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 2: very much related to a scientific issue, to an environmental agenda.

154
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,920
Speaker 2: And we can really understand through the lenses of climate

155
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:39,640
Speaker 2: obstruction that climate policies they touch transport, energy, they touch agriculture,

156
00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 2: I mean, a series of other fields and other policies

157
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,280
Speaker 2: crossing across the board of governmental policies. And I think

158
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 2: that this is important for the sake of understanding this

159
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 2: umbrella concept of climate obstruction. And also I mean, and

160
00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,559
Speaker 2: yet another issue I think that we could easily understand,

161
00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,959
Speaker 2: particularly through chapter number four. I think it was the

162
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,640
Speaker 2: chapter on the far right, for example, the linkages the

163
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 2: connections between democratic backlash and the growth of climate obstruction

164
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 2: networks and organizations in different countries, with so many different contexts,

165
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,959
Speaker 2: but with this commonality of attacking climate policies altogether, also

166
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,400
Speaker 2: for the sake of attacking democratic advance.

167
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,640
Speaker 7: Okay, can you talk a little bit about what sorts

168
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 7: of entities get involved in obstructing climate policy? I know

169
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,720
Speaker 7: you're like, yes, we gave you a whole book about this,

170
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,800
Speaker 7: but yeah, in broad strokes, what are the sorts of

171
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 7: entities that get involved in these kinds of activities.

172
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,520
Speaker 5: Look, one of the key findings I guess from all

173
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,640
Speaker 5: the work that we've done to bring this book together

174
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,120
Speaker 5: is that, as you may guess, large oil and gas

175
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,960
Speaker 5: corporations are really front and center here, but importantly they're

176
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,839
Speaker 5: not the only ones. So a lot of the early

177
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 5: work focused on organizations that your listeners will be familiar with,

178
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 5: X on Mobile, Chevron, Shell and others, and the role

179
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 5: that they've played obstructing action on climate change. Of course,

180
00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 5: there's a good reason to do that. We know since

181
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties these organizations have spent tens hundreds of

182
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,200
Speaker 5: millions of dollars denying the existence of climate change, funding

183
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,760
Speaker 5: television campaigns, online campaign social media campaigns, etc. But as

184
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 5: I said, they're not the only ones. So we have

185
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,960
Speaker 5: a lot of evidence now about the role of coal companies, utilities,

186
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 5: car manufacturers, meat and dairy producers that have joined in

187
00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 5: efforts to delay slow down climate policies. So if you

188
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 5: take the meat and dairy industry, for example, it's a

189
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 5: sector that's uniquely emissions intensive compared with other agricultural industries

190
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,959
Speaker 5: because of its methane emissions, and so they've played a

191
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,680
Speaker 5: key role too. The other kind of interesting thing we

192
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,480
Speaker 5: observe is that you have these supply chains that create

193
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,839
Speaker 5: coalitions right across the economy. So if you think about

194
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,200
Speaker 5: utilities that we rely on to general electricity, well, in

195
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 5: many countries they still are dependent on coal and gas,

196
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,719
Speaker 5: so you see coalitions between coal, gas, and utilities. Or

197
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,400
Speaker 5: you take one that you wouldn't really think of, like railroads.

198
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,000
Speaker 5: In many places, railroads are dependent on coal and so

199
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,439
Speaker 5: they work together to move the coal around the country.

200
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,880
Speaker 5: So you see these coalitions right up and down supply chains.

201
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,680
Speaker 5: One manifestation of this is large trade associations that represent

202
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 5: multiple industries taking positions to block climate change. So in

203
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,520
Speaker 5: the US, it's well known groups like the US Chamber

204
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 5: of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers. These are large

205
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,880
Speaker 5: member based organizations that represent some of the largest industries

206
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,720
Speaker 5: in the country. In Europe there's groups like the European

207
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,720
Speaker 5: Roundtable of Industrialists. In Indonesia there's the Chamber of Commerce

208
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,320
Speaker 5: in Industry and so on. So many of these larger

209
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 5: bodies that represent business right across society have taken quite

210
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 5: extreme anti climate positions in part because of these linkages

211
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 5: across supply chains. So the short answer is, yes, it's

212
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 5: oil and gas, but it's much more than that as well.

213
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 7: Talk about responsibility. I really like this framing that you

214
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,239
Speaker 7: have in there of attribution for obstruction mapping to attribution

215
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 7: science around emissions. So I'd love to have you guys

216
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,920
Speaker 7: talk about what makes fossil fuel producers uniquely liable for

217
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 7: both climate change itself and climate obstruction. I know we

218
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,320
Speaker 7: just talked about the fact that they're obviously not the

219
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:30,320
Speaker 7: only ones, but they are a major source. So yeah,

220
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 7: so what makes them uniquely liable? Yes?

221
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,480
Speaker 4: Thanks Samy. I feel seen with this question. So I

222
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 4: really like it, and I think you've you've stated it

223
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 4: well on drilled. You know, you have the actual pollution,

224
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,800
Speaker 4: the greenouse gas emissions, and you have a set of

225
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 4: actors that emerge in attribution science who is responsible for

226
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,200
Speaker 4: these emissions. And then you have a separate issue that

227
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,320
Speaker 4: climate obstruction is really interested in about information pollution and

228
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 4: the lobbying and these instructionist actions. And this is not

229
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 4: necessarily a one to one overlap in terms of these

230
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,720
Speaker 4: sets of entities. So one way that it does seem

231
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 4: uniquely different is, for instance, Saudi Aramco, state owned fossil

232
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 4: fuel company seems less involved in climate obstruction than investor

233
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 4: owned Exon Mobile and for all sorts of reasons, that's true,

234
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,680
Speaker 4: far less influential. Certainly in the US.

235
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 2: Context, that's true.

236
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 4: And then you also have these interesting because we've identified

237
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 4: this network of climate obstruction, because we are aware now

238
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,400
Speaker 4: of major PR firms like Edelman being involved in climate obstruction.

239
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 4: Edelman has very little to do with climate emissions, with

240
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 4: greenhouse gas emissions, but a lot to do with information pollution,

241
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 4: and so we identify this new set of actors who

242
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,000
Speaker 4: have responsibility in the realm of climate obstruction, but who

243
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 4: may have very little responsibility in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

244
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think this is one point, as Jennifer was saying,

245
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 5: that we were tried to make clear in the book,

246
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 5: is that some actors are more consequential than others, and

247
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 5: not all participants here in obstruction, you know, are equally liable.

248
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 5: Are just kind of one additional point there that we

249
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,920
Speaker 5: make in the book is that these types of actors

250
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 5: that you're talking about some of these large oil and

251
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 5: gas producers, and we know from some great existing studies

252
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 5: there's about ninety carbon majors, for example, that are responsible

253
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 5: across oil, gas, and cement for a large chunk of

254
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 5: rises in global mean average global temperatures and even sea

255
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 5: level rise. So this attribution science is really pinpointing that.

256
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 5: But it's not, as Jennifer was saying, it's not only

257
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,400
Speaker 5: that these companies are responsible for the emissions, but they

258
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 5: also continue to spew out emissions expand their production, even

259
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 5: though many of these firms know better than most because

260
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 5: of their in house scientific knowledge, the damage that they're doing,

261
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 5: how their practices are heating the planet. And then for

262
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 5: these organizations to go on and use these huge amounts

263
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,400
Speaker 5: of revenues that they're generating in profits, to use a

264
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 5: large chunk of that to then engage in political activities

265
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 5: to try and delay policies, to try and block policies

266
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 5: that are actually going to reduce emissions. I think that's

267
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 5: why you're saying, some of these organizations being taken to court,

268
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,360
Speaker 5: being figned libel in courts and human rights commissions right

269
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 5: across the world.

270
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 4: And with no doubt we should think of those original

271
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 4: emitters as the kind of beating heart of climate obstruction

272
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 4: that you don't have Edleman without excellent mobile. But nevertheless,

273
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 4: we have to think of the network as a whole

274
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 4: as we identify, you know, sort of the main entities

275
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 4: involved in shaping public opinion and politics.

276
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 2: And there are some actors and they are very important

277
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 2: at opening some doors that would not have been opened

278
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 2: without their responsibility and their share of responsibility. As Jennifer said,

279
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 2: of course, I mean the vir firm or some religious

280
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,480
Speaker 2: actors as the case here in Latin America for example.

281
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 2: They are not the key emitters, but they are those

282
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 2: who are helping pollute the information environment and contributing to

283
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 2: the dissemination of climate and these are roles that are

284
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,399
Speaker 2: very important for the sake of delaying action.

285
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,639
Speaker 7: Right, I want to get into the ten key findings

286
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,119
Speaker 7: that you summarize in this chapter for the rest of

287
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,040
Speaker 7: the book. Let's start with it's not just about climate denial,

288
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 7: thank you. I feel like I can't believe we're still

289
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 7: having that conversation where it gets us to that, but

290
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 7: we are, so let's talk about that.

291
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I will say that there were more than

292
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 3: ten findings in this book, of course, so we had

293
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,120
Speaker 3: to leave a lot out of this list, but this

294
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 3: is to me the biggest one, and people don't really

295
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,200
Speaker 3: often get it or know that this sort of transition

296
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 3: has happened, that that those who were denying the reality

297
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,440
Speaker 3: of climate change have largely moved on. There are some

298
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 3: you know, weirdos and you know extreme people who continue

299
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,480
Speaker 3: to say, oh, it's not real. I heard one just

300
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 3: the other day at a hearing about offshore wind in

301
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 3: Rhode Island. But he was one of twenty five pieces

302
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,159
Speaker 3: of testimony against offshore wind. The rest were saying things

303
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,600
Speaker 3: like it's not you know, it's not reliable, it's not affordable,

304
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 3: it's going to itself cause you a lot massive environmental damage,

305
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 3: and so on, and those kind of arguments are really

306
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 3: attacks on climate solutions, and we're seeing a huge surgeon those.

307
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 3: So some excellent research built on earlier work by John Cook,

308
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 3: who has a wonderful things like a game called Cranky

309
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 3: Uncle and about you know, how do you help sort

310
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 3: of prebunk or help people recognize misinformation. So a categorization

311
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 3: scheme that he built and then was built upon by

312
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 3: Travis Cohen and mere Jim Nanco at Exeter University in

313
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 3: the UK. And what they've shown really is that just

314
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 3: even quantitatively, if you can use sort of AI or

315
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 3: other machine learning to categorize you know, types of claims

316
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 3: about climate change. And we're seeing a market shift away

317
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,399
Speaker 3: from this attacking the science itself about the reality of

318
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,640
Speaker 3: climate change, but rather much more about the solutions. So

319
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,960
Speaker 3: some people are calling this sort of delayism, or as

320
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 3: William Lamb in an article called discourse, is a climate

321
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 3: delay that's been proven useful for understanding the shift. You know,

322
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 3: people are saying, well, we should re'll act on it later,

323
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 3: or the techno when the technology gets better, or well,

324
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,280
Speaker 3: you know, we'll hope that some great technology will fall

325
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 3: from the sky, or the you know, the usual things

326
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 3: will become viable like nuclear fusion or you know, hydrogen

327
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,360
Speaker 3: and so on that you know, you've covered a lot

328
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 3: in this on the show. So anyway, and then there's

329
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 3: other attacks which are on the scientists and on the

330
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 3: activists and on people like us so on the even

331
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 3: on the journalists and the social scientists. So are there

332
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 3: are new approaches to slowing down action climate change? They

333
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 3: don't need to really say that it's not happening. They

334
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,480
Speaker 3: can now attack the solutions and those of us who

335
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,199
Speaker 3: are seeking the advance solutions quickly.

336
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 2: This is not to say that climate denial does not

337
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 2: exist anymore right here in Brazil, for example, forward added

338
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 2: denialist government, I mean denying the actual existence of climate change, right,

339
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 2: We had ministers have.

340
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,240
Speaker 7: One in the US right now.

341
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I hope that, but I think that for us

342
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 2: to understand that, of course, obstruction is much more than denial,

343
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 2: but denial is still there, and even it's even if

344
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 2: it's not only denial anymore. Sometimes we can even still

345
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 2: listen to some forms of interpretative denial, such as the

346
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: current president of Petro brass under government right saying that,

347
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 2: for example, drilling oil at the mouth of the Amazon

348
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 2: doesn't have anything to do with floods in the South

349
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: cone of Brazil. Well, that's the sort of dissociating cause

350
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 2: and effect. And I think that these are kinds of

351
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,199
Speaker 2: messages that, in spite of all the advances in the

352
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 2: scientific fields, we can still listen from politicians and key

353
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: managers of oil industries and other businesses.

354
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Okay, We've said, we've

355
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 7: mentioned this a couple of times already, but we'll probably

356
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 7: repeat it a few more that it's not it's not

357
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 7: just oil. It's not just big oil though, So can

358
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 7: I have you guys talk a little bit about what

359
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 7: are some of these other industries that are particularly involved

360
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 7: in climate obstruction? We mentioned animal egg before, so Jennifer,

361
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 7: I'm sure you'll have more to add on that, but

362
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 7: what are some of the other ones as well?

363
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think part of our excitement around this book

364
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 4: was expanding out the sectors that we talk about, and

365
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 4: so we have various chapters dedicated to other sectors, one

366
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 4: of which is animal agriculture. And we have known since

367
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 4: two thousand and six when we got the first global

368
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 4: assessment of livestocks impacts on greenhouse gases that the livestock

369
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 4: sector counts for anywhere from fifteen to twenty five percent

370
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 4: of anthropogenic warming, depending on the kind of accounting that

371
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 4: you use. So it's not the biggest greenhouse gas emitter,

372
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 4: but it's up there. And in terms of what's interesting

373
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 4: is you'll hear in the animal agriculture industry frequently say

374
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: that they get a disproportionate amount of attention relative to

375
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,360
Speaker 4: their emissions, and I think our view is inverted to that.

376
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 4: So again this kind of you know, sort of classic

377
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 4: difference I think between what the scholars might say and

378
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 4: what the industry might say. But yeah, animal agriculture is

379
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 4: a major polluter. As to why it hasn't received the

380
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 4: same amount of attention, one reason, of course, is that

381
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 4: the science itself on attribution has lagged behind what we

382
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 4: know about just sort of warming generally. So you know,

383
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 4: as we've understood climate change, we've had to understand who

384
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 4: is actually responsible for it, and identifying the livestock sector

385
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 4: has come later than it has around some of the

386
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 4: other sectors. Notably, of course, the IPCCED does not identify

387
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 4: livestock as a particular sector. Animal agriculture is included here

388
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 4: because now we have a growing body of evidence, it's

389
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 4: not huge, less than a dozen papers actually, but to

390
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 4: show that the meat and dairy industry has actively been

391
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 4: involved in climate obstruction, that they have downplayed, denied, delayed,

392
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 4: lobbied against, influenced public discourse around the topic of climate change.

393
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 4: And that was a prerequisite. A lot of people would

394
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 4: have liked to see. A lot of author for instance,

395
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 4: would have liked to see the financial sector and it's

396
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 4: rule in climate obstruction, but because we don't have a

397
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 4: scholarly basis on which to build that body of evidence,

398
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 4: we set it aside for the next volume.

399
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, the only point to add there, I guess is

400
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 5: one of the really nice things about this book was

401
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 5: to spotlight some of these industries that we've been talking

402
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 5: about that don't always get the attention. So oil, gas

403
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 5: and coal, yes, but utilities. Actually, we don't have a

404
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 5: huge amount of scholarly information about utilities, and yet the

405
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 5: little we do know is that they've played a key

406
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 5: role all the way back to the early nineteen nineties

407
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 5: in some of the original coalitions, like the Global Climate Coalition,

408
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 5: that played such a significant role obstructing climate change, and

409
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 5: in many countries they still do. And in many jurisdictions

410
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 5: there's some of the most powerful corporations. There's some of

411
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 5: them as state owned entities as well. So utilities is

412
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 5: one that we talk a little bit about in the book,

413
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 5: and others that perhaps your listeners don't think so much about,

414
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 5: like car manufacturers, organizations like Toyota, for example. You wouldn't

415
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 5: necessarily jump to or imagine when you're talking about climate obstruction,

416
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 5: but some of these car manufacturers that have bet on

417
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 5: you internal combustion engines, continuing for some time, continue to

418
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 5: obstruct things like fuel efficiency standards for cars. So right

419
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 5: across the economy, a whole range of sector is a

420
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 5: whole range of corporations that don't necessarily come to mind.

421
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 5: We're now starting to see emerging interest, unfortunately, showing that

422
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 5: these organizations too engage in the types of political activities

423
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 5: that really marror what oil and gas have been doing

424
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 5: as well.

425
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, that kind of leads to my next question, which

426
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 7: is about the tree associations. So you mentioned that tree

427
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 7: associations have this huge rule to play in climate obstruction,

428
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 7: and I'm wondering if you can give a little bit

429
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 7: of an overview and then a couple of examples of

430
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 7: specific ones and what they get up to.

431
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 5: Sure, So we've spoken about these networks of organizations, and

432
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 5: some of the language we use is there's a whole

433
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 5: range of organizations that really enable climate obstruction. You actually

434
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 5: might have seen the U and Secretary General last year

435
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 5: calling on for example, to stop I think in his words,

436
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 5: you know, halting planetary obstruction for example. So there's a

437
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 5: whole range of enablers and trade associations perhaps one of

438
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 5: the most important. To give you an example, perhaps I

439
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 5: can draw on some of the work that I've been

440
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 5: doing with Robert Brawl which has really kind of focused

441
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 5: in on the political expenditure of these organizations. So to

442
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 5: be clear, what's a trade association, Well that really these

443
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 5: are member based organizations that firms kind of hide behind

444
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 5: often to do their dirty work. So I'm talking about

445
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 5: groups like the American Patrolling Institute, one of the largest

446
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 5: in the US, probably one of the largest in the world.

447
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 5: It represents Shell bp exon Mobil, but it also represents

448
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 5: a whole range of refiners and others. And so what

449
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 5: we did in one piece of work is we went

450
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 5: through their tax filings of about ninety organizations that have

451
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 5: engaged on climate issues between twenty eight and twenty eighteen,

452
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 5: just to see, you know, how much money do they

453
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 5: have at their disposal, how much money they spending on politics.

454
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 5: And what we found over that decade is of those

455
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 5: around ninety trade associations that are working on climate issues,

456
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 5: they had total revenues of more than twenty five billion

457
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 5: US dollars, so huge sums of money the oil and

458
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 5: gas sector alone. This is just the trade associations had

459
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 5: four point six billion US dollars in revenues. What was

460
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 5: also interesting is that thirteen percent of that, or about

461
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 5: three point four billion, was just being spent on political activities.

462
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 5: So these trade associations that are working on climate change

463
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 5: issues in the US were spending three point four billion

464
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 5: US over a decade on a whole range of political

465
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 5: activities to try and shape climate policies. The other kind

466
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 5: of scary thing to know about these numbers is from

467
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 5: the political science literature, we know that actually firms themselves

468
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 5: spend more on politics than trade associations, so three point

469
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 5: four billion is really just scratching the surface. And then

470
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 5: the other thing we're interested in was what are they

471
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 5: spending that money on? So coming we've spoken a moment

472
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 5: ago about Edelman and others, but advertising and promotion was

473
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 5: the largest was the largest pot. So these organizations spent

474
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 5: again hopefully I'm not drowning you in figures here, but

475
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 5: two point two billion dollars just on advertising promotions. So

476
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 5: most of their political spending is going to social media campaigns,

477
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 5: television campaigns, radio.

478
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: And others.

479
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 5: And that's a lot more than they actually spent on lobbing.

480
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 5: They also spent huge sums of money, almost four hundred

481
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 5: million on external grants to other organizations. So, yes, we

482
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 5: tend to think about these organizations. They do the lobbying

483
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 5: and this type of stuff, but they also do a

484
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 5: lot of pr They do a lot of external grants,

485
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 5: and that was one thing I was curious about, you know,

486
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 5: why are you guys giving all these external grants to

487
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 5: sporting organizations, museums, historical societies, and others. And a few

488
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 5: years ago I was I did some interviews with some

489
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 5: of the lobbyists in these organizations, and I noted that

490
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 5: a bunch of them were giving small amounts of money

491
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 5: to a whole range of charitable organizations in Washington, DC.

492
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,239
Speaker 5: And you would ask them why, and some people said, oh,

493
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 5: it's just simply because we want to solve Alzheimers, for example.

494
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 5: But when you pushed a little bit more, you know,

495
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 5: does it really begs you care about cancer or solving Alzheimer's.

496
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 5: You know, it probably won't come as a surprise to

497
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 5: those that work in Washington, d C. But often you

498
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 5: give a small there's a charitable dinner in DC. You

499
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 5: give ten thousand dollars to a particular organization, and that

500
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 5: buys you a seat at the table, and perhaps at

501
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 5: that particular dinner, the honorary guest that night is the

502
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 5: Senate Finance Chairman. So you buy a seat at the table,

503
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 5: the money goes to this charity, You sit next to

504
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 5: the Senate Finance Chairman, you organize a meeting with their

505
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 5: chief of staff on Monday morning, and that's how you

506
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 5: facilitate lobbing. So these are very sophisticated playbooks that these

507
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 5: trade associations are using to shape climate and energy policies

508
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 5: on behalf of their members, and there's huge sums of money,

509
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: as we detail in the book.

510
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: Going to this, I.

511
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 4: Would only add to that that the first instance of

512
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: climate obstruction that we note in the book is by

513
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 4: the American Petroleum Institute in nineteen eighty so a trade association.

514
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 4: And the first example we have of climate obstruction by

515
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 4: the meat and dairy industry is by the nowtional Cattleman's

516
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 4: Beef Association in nineteen eighty nine, and we know that

517
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: they've been heavily involved moving forward from there too. So

518
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 4: again the role of trade associations does appear to be

519
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 4: prominent across many different sectors.

520
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 7: I find it interesting to look at the trade groups

521
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 7: that are sort of cross industry. Like I've been obsessed

522
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 7: with obsessively monitoring IATA for the last couple of years

523
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 7: because i just think it's interesting that you've got like

524
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 7: the oil companies, the airlines, and they're putting out so

525
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 7: much garbage about sustainable aviation fuels at the face. But anyway, Yeah,

526
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 7: I'm curious about the cross industry groups and how active

527
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 7: they are and why industries might hide out in those groups.

528
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 5: It allows firms to hide in the crowd. So the

529
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 5: authors in chapter three use that phrase. I mean, it

530
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 5: came up in a lot of interviews I've done as well.

531
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 5: You know, often they'll talk about trade associations as the

532
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 5: tip of the spear or but it allows firms to

533
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 5: kind of go out in public and say, you know,

534
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 5: we support the Paris Agreement, we support net zero, but

535
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: at the same time channel money to organizations that can

536
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 5: come out and try and undermine these agreements, undermine policies

537
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 5: to meet them. So it's really a way to protect

538
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 5: the social license of the firms that are members of them.

539
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 5: So we often see firms say one thing in public,

540
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 5: the CEO will give a press statement or so on.

541
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 5: But if you follow where the money is actually going

542
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,719
Speaker 5: to these trade associations, they're undertaking political activities that are

543
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 5: in direct contradiction to what some of the leaders of

544
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 5: these firms are saying in public. So it's that reputational protection.

545
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 5: I think that really comes out in some of the

546
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 5: chapters in this book as well.

547
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, okay, let's talk about another layer to this,

548
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 7: the think tanks, which are just everywhere and growing all

549
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 7: the time. How do they get involved in climate obstruction

550
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 7: and what are some good examples of the think tanks

551
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 7: that are particularly involved.

552
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: Well, I think that based on the context of Latin

553
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: American countries, I think thanks are not very a very

554
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 2: frequent reality, right, and very often they have been set

555
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: up in Brazil, in Argentina and Chile and other countries

556
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: also through funds coming from Global North countries and Global

557
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: North companies, right exactly to portray this image of producing

558
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: scientific knowledge, policy relevant knowledge, but with a key message

559
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: of spreading out, spreading they need to let's wait a

560
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: little bit and then implement later when we have more

561
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: information about what is really needed to do, perhaps in

562
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: a less costly way, when more technology is available so

563
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: that we don't have to be confronted with all the

564
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: costs that are here. I mean for us to implement

565
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: through clipe of climate policies. So I think I think

566
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: Thanks they are one of these inge actors, together with

567
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: religious groups, which help open doors, particularly between the official

568
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: and civil society world right, because they are within the

569
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: civil society. Very often you don't know if they're speaking

570
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 2: on behalf of a government or on behalf of civil society,

571
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: because they have this nature that is kind of hybrid.

572
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: It's a think thank and you don't know if it's

573
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: really coming from a social movement, from a civil society

574
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: or from a government. And I think this hinge function

575
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: opening doors. It's very important because if you withdraw the

576
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: hinge of a door, it's going to open somehow, but

577
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: it's not going to open so easily. And I think

578
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: they played this role which is very important.

579
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 5: The other thing I think that's stay tailed quite clearly

580
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 5: in the book, And there's some terrific work by a

581
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 5: handful of research is focusing trying to understand this network

582
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 5: of think tanks. Now many of the most dominant are

583
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 5: in the US. As Cars were saying, they're channeling money

584
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 5: right across the world. But we spend a little bit

585
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 5: of time in some of the chapters talking about the

586
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 5: Atlas Network. So this for those of your listeners that

587
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 5: haven't heard of the Atlas Network, this is a global

588
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 5: network of organizations of think tanks. They're very much free

589
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 5: market orientated and they focus on neoliberal policies. It's organizations

590
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 5: like the Heartland Institute in the US, the Free Market

591
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 5: Foundation in South Africa, the Global Warming Policy Foundation in

592
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 5: the United Kingdom. In my own country in Australia, the

593
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 5: Institute for Public Affairs is another prominent trade association. And

594
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 5: so we see this network of organizations. We're starting to

595
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 5: know a lot more about how they operate, the interlinkages

596
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 5: between them, including funding flows, personnel, the interlocks between boards

597
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 5: and so forth. But in many countries, as Carlos is saying,

598
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 5: they play a very very influential role. Here in Australia,

599
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 5: the Institute for Public Affairs that I just mentioned, for example,

600
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 5: has very close ties to a number of conservative politicians

601
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 5: that have been very outspoken even questioning the science of

602
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 5: climate change. And I'm sure that's true right across the world.

603
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 5: So we're seeing this close connection the way they spread ideas,

604
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 5: but also their links right into national parliaments.

605
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 7: I just spent a bunch of time at the Atlas

606
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 7: Archive in California, and my favorite little like tidbit from

607
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 7: there was this project where they funneled money, The API

608
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 7: funneled money through Atlas to this fringe Catholic priest to

609
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 7: try to work on getting Catholic bishops to be less

610
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 7: interested in environmental issues and in fact to get them

611
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 7: to think about environmentalism as like a cult that was

612
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 7: a dangerous threat to Catholicism.

613
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 5: Wow, there's not life, right.

614
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 7: It's amazing. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild how much they do.

615
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: I think that they also play a role in organizing

616
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: a political message that is broader, that goes beyond climate

617
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: through the organization of seedback here in Brazil. In other countries,

618
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 2: for example, conservative political they play a key role because

619
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: they get funds. I mean, they get support even from

620
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: governmental authorities, depending on the government, and they organize a

621
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: conference and that gives legitimation I mean in terms of

622
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: the image that they could portray socially. Everybody, Oh, they

623
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: are organizing a conference, so they are knowledgeable. They must

624
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 2: be respected because they're organizing something. That is, they bring presidents,

625
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: i mean leaders from different countries not only to talk

626
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: about climate, but climate is always there of course.

627
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, we've mentioned the PR firms a couple of times,

628
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 7: but let's talk about them more specifically as kind of

629
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 7: agents of obstruction. How do they operate? How do they

630
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 7: kind of act to enable climate obstruction?

631
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 4: So, as we mentioned earlier, PR firms are worked for hire.

632
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 4: They're doing works on behalf of their clients. They don't

633
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 4: do the work that they do without having money behind that.

634
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 4: On the other hand, we also know that PR firms

635
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 4: want to position themselves to be sort of loyal to

636
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 4: certain industries to guarantee certain kinds of contracts moving forward,

637
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 4: and so we see deep relationships between some PR firms

638
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 4: and some polluting industries. There were Again, because we focused

639
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 4: in this volume on twenty fifteen to the present, you know,

640
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 4: we're really interested in work scholarship around that time as well,

641
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 4: and so there have been examples. In chapter four on

642
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 4: the animal agriculture industry of the Red Flag, it's an

643
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 4: Irish PR firm very involved in positioning the animal agriculture

644
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 4: industry as sustainable and so much so in fact, that

645
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,959
Speaker 4: extinction rebellion, you know, protested outside of Red Flag's headquarters

646
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen because of this immense amount of bidding

647
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 4: that they do on behalf of the animal agg industry.

648
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 4: And there were a few other interesting examples I think

649
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 4: of PR firms that people may not have typically heard

650
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 4: of as being involved in climate obstruction that appear in

651
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 4: this volume.

652
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

653
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 5: I was actually going to talk about Edelman, but maybe

654
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 5: you're sick if do you want to hear more about it.

655
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 5: I was just going to use the Energy Citizens example

656
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 5: as a good one. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's an

657
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 5: older one now, but I guess we were talking about

658
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 5: trade associations a moment ago, and so firms higher PR firms,

659
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 5: but also trade associations higher PR firms as well. So

660
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 5: they work for a whole range of organizations in these

661
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 5: networks that are obstructing action on climate change. And this

662
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 5: is an older example, but I think it's just a

663
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 5: classic case of how these things operate.

664
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 2: Right.

665
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 5: So, in January twenty twelve, ahead of the US presidential elections,

666
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 5: we saw this alliance of organizations and citizens called Energy

667
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 5: Citizens runner canpaign titled I'm an Energy Voter.

668
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 4: In the world in oil and natural gas production. That

669
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 4: means lower energy costs, more growth, more security for Americans.

670
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 7: More energy means more opportunity.

671
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: We just see the right policies to make it happen.

672
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 6: I'm Chris and I'm an energy voter.

673
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 5: So it's this kind of campaign that sprung up. And

674
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 5: the campaign involved newspapers, online, TV ads, and you had

675
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 5: ordinary Americans looking into the camera saying, I'm an energy voter.

676
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 5: I care about energy, I want to support American jobs.

677
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 5: I support more oil and gas drilling. You could go

678
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 5: to a website, say called vote for Energy dot org

679
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 5: that told you more information about where different politicians stood

680
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 5: on energy issues. Now, this all looks like a kind

681
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 5: of grassroots, legitimate campaign by ordinary citizens that cared about

682
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 5: energy issues. But it turns out, thanks to a lot

683
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 5: of great investigative journalism and others, that actually the American

684
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 5: Petroleum Institute, this organization we've been talking about, had contracted

685
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 5: Edelman to run the campaign, to pay for the actors

686
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 5: to appear in these ads, to set up the website,

687
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 5: to do all this type of work. So that's really

688
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 5: what these pr firms are doing. They're running a whole

689
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 5: lot of AstroTurf organizations as well. It's not just setting

690
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 5: up a TV campaign. And when we went back through

691
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 5: the tax data, I looked at before what we actually

692
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 5: saw in those years when Edelman set up the Energy

693
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 5: Citizens campaign on behalf of the American Patrollum Institute. We

694
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 5: know that the API paid Edelman one hundred and twenty

695
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 5: million dollars in contracts for public relations in those two years.

696
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 5: So I think there's some clear links there and large

697
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 5: sums of money behind these types of campaigns that organizations

698
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 5: like Edelman and others run for trade associations and for firms.

699
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 4: I just want to jump in to add. You know,

700
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 4: you can see in these campaigns in this framing in general,

701
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 4: why some of these other sectors then get lost visa

702
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 4: the oil and gas Because often, especially in the United States,

703
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 4: climate change and energy are really completed and it's about

704
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 4: energy use or energy voter and not necessarily about emissions.

705
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 7: Let's talk about governments. There are obviously major agents of

706
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 7: climate destruction and obstruction. Yeah, how do governments get involved

707
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 7: in climate obstruction? I think sometimes people might think of

708
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 7: climate obstruction as being something that's happening on the way

709
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 7: to government. But you talk in this book about how

710
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 7: governments themselves are often doing this too. So let's talk

711
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 7: about some examples.

712
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to jump on this talking about the

713
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 2: Volscenara administration. Of course, because climate denial existed in Brazil

714
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: prior to his administration. Of course, there were books, there

715
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: were reports that had been published way before his administration.

716
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: But what the machinery, the governmental machinery, made possible was

717
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: to make climate denial something official as part of the

718
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: actual rhetoric of the government, and not only of the rhetoric,

719
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: but of the actions of that government, I mean nationally

720
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: and globally, through the participation of a country like Brazil

721
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: and multi natural climate negotiations. For example, it's interesting to

722
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 2: see the behavior, the change of behavior between the Brazilian

723
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: governments in the annunciation of the Paris Agreement in twenty

724
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: fifteen and later on in Glasgow had another cop and

725
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: we had another government, and the behavior and the political

726
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: stances taken by that government the same country, but different

727
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 2: governments were totally different, right. And another level of differentuciation,

728
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: which I believe is also important, is to see how

729
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: similar leaders may actually act differently if we compare like

730
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: we're doing some research comparing Brazil and Argentina the two cases.

731
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: For example, the ma Lay government doesn't have a very

732
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: much strong opinion about climate but it's also because Argentina

733
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: doesn't play the same level the same road at Brazil

734
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: has historically played in multilateral climate negotiations, and also because

735
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: the environmental movement and the climate movement in Argentina is

736
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: not so strong to the level that climate obstruction would

737
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: be needed. So when we make this comparison between Brazil

738
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: and Argentina, it's interesting to see that climate obstruction is

739
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: also it also conflates with the level of organization of

740
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: environmental movements and climate movements nationally, right, and if there

741
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: is a climate governance at the national level, then climate

742
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: obstruction will need to be stronger in order to dismantal legislation,

743
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: to go against the organization of participatory councils, for example

744
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: at the national level, where civil society the science community

745
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: may play a role. When you don't have that kind

746
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 2: of governance organized at the national level the Argentinian case,

747
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: of course, you don't need to have such strong climate

748
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: obstruction actually us to the same level.

749
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 3: It's going to talk about Trump, So I would jump

750
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 3: in there talk about Trump. So here in the US,

751
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 3: it's just you know, people are in shock about how

752
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 3: effective the rollback has been of American climate policy. And

753
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 3: you know, we've of course had been through this before

754
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 3: in the Trump's first term, but they kind of failed

755
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 3: to achieve a lot of the rollback that they were

756
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: seeking to because they did a sloppy job and they

757
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 3: had whatever, poorly written laws and so on. But anyway,

758
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 3: so we've seen, and we're seeing right now in the

759
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: US a shocking attack on climate action by the government itself.

760
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 3: It's a new phase of obstruction, there's no question. And

761
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: this is you know, this volume we finished before Trump

762
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 3: came into office for the second time, that is, and

763
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: so there's going to need to be you know, the

764
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: new phase of Trump led obstruction volume sometime in the future.

765
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 3: But the point I'd like to make is that there's

766
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 3: always been obstruction, and the US has actually always been

767
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 3: a leader of obstruction globally. That in the UN negotiations

768
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: we have I've been attending for, you know, over twenty

769
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 3: five years, and it's you know, the US was always

770
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: the problem child the rest of the world waited for

771
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 3: to figure out what the heck the US was going

772
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 3: to do because we have this crazy supermajority required by

773
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 3: the Senate, and everybody in the world, in the smallest

774
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: African countries know about the quirks of you know, Joe

775
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 3: Manchin or something in the US Senate. And there's been

776
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 3: you know, very sophisticated blocking of global action in the US, sorry,

777
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: by the US negotiating team through all those years, through

778
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 3: democratic and republican administry. It's been bad. The US has

779
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 3: with a few, very few exceptions, like in the run

780
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 3: up to the Paaris agreement, the US did a little better. Anyway,

781
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 3: the US has been really important and I think there's

782
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 3: much to be learned from that because we need still

783
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: to understand where did the US position come from. How

784
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 3: did the US government become such a a force for

785
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 3: obstruction in global solution to climate change? And we really

786
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 3: can go back to the beginning when the UN f

787
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: Triple C, the UN Climate Treaty was being first drafted.

788
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 3: There was very strong influence from the oil and gas

789
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: and coal industries. They organized, they got their way, they

790
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 3: used their trade organizations, their politics, you know, their political connections.

791
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 3: So there's different types of government led obstruction. Some are

792
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: more subtle and some are extremely blunt, but I think

793
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 3: it's really important for us to understand both.

794
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 6: Well.

795
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 4: I want to tie you together something Carlos and Timmons were saying,

796
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 4: because Carlos brought up the difference between Brazil and Argentina,

797
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 4: and don't forget the US is the largest historical emitter

798
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 4: if you think about the nation state, and as a result,

799
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 4: it waffles between a position of high responsibility and a

800
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 4: position of high denial. And this book volume is focused

801
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,919
Speaker 4: on twenty fifteen to the presence, so unfortunately that encompasses

802
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 4: both Trump one and two presidencies. And the legitimization, I

803
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 4: think was the word you were using, Carlos, of having

804
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 4: the political leader, the top person in office in the

805
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 4: United States, call climate change a hoax, use very dramatic,

806
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: incendiary language in the twenty first century, and withdraw from

807
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 4: the Paris Agreement, which Obama helped design and get through politically,

808
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: just shows I think you know the constant in schizophrenia

809
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,760
Speaker 4: that we live with in this country regarding both climate

810
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 4: obstruction and climate policy.

811
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 3: I want to jump last in with one last point,

812
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 3: and that is that by withdrawing from the Paris Agreement,

813
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 3: there is ironically an opportunity for the rest of the

814
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: world to move forward without its major obstructor so at

815
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: least in the negotiating room. But you know, you have

816
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: to ask why would they If the largest historic emitter

817
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 3: and the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world

818
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 3: doesn't act, why should they. So anyway, there's the double

819
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: edge there on government led obstruction. In the US case

820
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 3: right now, let's.

821
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 2: To say that, well, the US has withdrawn from the

822
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: agreement and it's not going to participate in cop But

823
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: for example, now in Bond, Japan was playing the US role, right,

824
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: and many negotiators was just saying, well, now we missed

825
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: the US because Japan is even worse. So I mean,

826
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 2: you may not be there, but you have others playing

827
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 2: the role.

828
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can jump been a little bit more

829
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: on the UNFC and even the IPCC, but I think

830
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 3: this is a frontier for more research. We have a

831
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 3: group that CSSN, one of the working groups that studies

832
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 3: obstruction in both of those contexts, and they will be

833
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 3: at the negotiations this next time, collaboratively doing ethnographic research

834
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 3: in the negotiating rooms and identifying when they see obstruction.

835
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 3: It's going to be really I think, quite illuminating. There's

836
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 3: a couple of articles that have been really important. Danielle

837
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 3: fell Zone at Rutgers has led US study on loss

838
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 3: and damage and this really important climate change issue affecting

839
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 3: the poorest countries in the world, and how the US

840
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 3: and other countries managed to keep it off the negotiating

841
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 3: table for decades. I mean, it was raised in nineteen

842
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 3: ninety one or two by Vanuwatu, you know, and yet

843
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 3: that issue just got absolutely stuffed in the garbage and

844
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 3: kept out out of the negotiations. And then there there's

845
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 3: another piece in one of our sort of policy briefings

846
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 3: from CSSN about Saudi Arabia, and they just repeatedly use

847
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 3: all the tricks in the book to slow down and

848
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 3: stop progress in the negotiations at the UNF Triple C negotiations,

849
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 3: all kinds, you know, just endless tricks, and they're effective.

850
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 3: And we also learned have learned that the US and

851
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 3: Saudi often were in collaboration, working quietly in the background.

852
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 3: And then I've just started attending IPCC meetings this last

853
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 3: year and learned, you know, there is obstruction by countries

854
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 3: like India and China and so on that often send

855
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: delegates that are there to make it more difficult to

856
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 3: come to consensus among the scientists. And then of course

857
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,439
Speaker 3: there's the more formal phase of input from governments where

858
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 3: they get to review the summary for policymakers, which is

859
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,439
Speaker 3: why that document ends up getting watered down so much

860
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 3: from the scientists report.

861
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 7: I know, Saudi, maybe it's quite active in the summary

862
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 7: for policy makers too, as is the US. Okay, one

863
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 7: of your overarching top ten findings that you list in

864
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 7: this chapter is obstruction starts at the top. That requires

865
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 7: social acceptance. So I want to have you talk about

866
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 7: how all of these different actors we've been talking about

867
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 7: go about securing that acceptance. How are they building social

868
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 7: acceptance or social license? What are they what are some

869
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 7: of the things they're doing. Again with the caveat that,

870
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 7: obviously there's the whole there's a whole book about it.

871
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 7: But yeah, what are some examples?

872
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I hope we've tried to do a

873
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 4: good job of drawing out the fact that different political

874
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 4: contexts result in different kinds of obstruction. And so in

875
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 4: certain you know, heavy petro states without democratic regimes, you

876
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 4: may not need obstruction whatsoever. Because you have just a

877
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 4: perfect alignment between what the industry once and what the

878
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 4: state wants and what the people are capable of objecting to.

879
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 4: So you don't need much obstruction. But in a lot

880
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 4: of cases, what you have are industries who are trying

881
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 4: to make themselves seem sustainable in the face of or

882
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 4: a lot of places where you see obstruction is where

883
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 4: you see industries who are trying to position themselves as

884
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 4: sustainable or trying to maintain their social license to operate

885
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 4: in the face of growing civil unrest or maybe even

886
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: growing litigation, or maybe even growing threat of regulation because

887
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 4: specifically of climate change. And so you have this kind

888
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 4: of obstructionist approach that may may be more about lobbying

889
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 4: and maybe more behind closed doors like the nature Christian

890
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 4: was describing getting a seat at the table next to

891
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 4: a senator, or it may take the form. And I

892
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 4: think this is what most people think of when they

893
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 4: think of obstruction of influencing public understanding, public discourse, and

894
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 4: the public view of the urgency to address climate change

895
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 4: in how we should do it. And so that type

896
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 4: of obstruction does require a lot of social buy in,

897
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 4: and it's achieved in all sorts of ways. The authors

898
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 4: of chapter two on the oil and gas chapter talk

899
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 4: about post twenty fifteen as the net zero era, that

900
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 4: the oil and gas companies have no longer denying climate

901
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 4: change outright as much as they are positioning themselves as

902
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 4: understanding climate change, and that we're going to be net

903
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 4: zero by doing a whole bunch of presumably obstructionist accounting.

904
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 4: Moving forward, the meat and dairy industry, you know, often

905
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 4: talking about how sustainable the industry is, how it's not

906
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 4: part of the problem, but ironically it's a huge part

907
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 4: of the solution. And also that any attempts to intervene

908
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 4: in either of these sectors would be enormously disastrous for

909
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 4: both the economy and for consumers in general. So there's

910
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 4: all sorts of ways in which then the obstruction helps

911
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 4: work with people's impression of these industries and what it

912
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 4: means to their daily lives, in ways that the data

913
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 4: show undermined the threat of regulation or political moves to

914
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 4: address climate change.

915
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to complement a little bit what Jennifer was saying,

916
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: I think that when we talk about social acceptance, we

917
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: also have to think of the role some religious actors,

918
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: the role that they play in disseminating and giving legitimacy

919
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 2: because they are talking about faith, about God, of course,

920
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: and they are talking to some social sectors where, for example,

921
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 2: some perhaps publicity about trade and about consumption is not

922
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 2: so important, but where does matter a lot? And when

923
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 2: you relate religious matters and messages with climate issues and

924
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 2: environmental issues, portrayed that these are I don't know, something

925
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 2: like coming from the devils, something like coming from another

926
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 2: kind of entity. And of course dream dragon. I'm sorry, yeah,

927
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is important to understand. These

928
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 2: are voters, right, and these social sectors and individuals, they

929
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 2: are voters at a certain moment in time, and depending

930
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 2: on their participation in the demography of a society, they

931
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 2: may play a key role in decide who's going to

932
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 2: be elected. Take the BRASIP where religious groups are very strong.

933
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: Are the US case where religious groups are extremely strong

934
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: in elections?

935
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, please throw us a lifeline, and can I have

936
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 7: each of you talk a little bit about an effort

937
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 7: or a group or a person that you saw through

938
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 7: your work on this book or related. Who's really combating

939
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,439
Speaker 7: obstruction in a way that seems effective. What are some

940
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 7: methods that are being used or yeah, what are some

941
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 7: groups that are having some traction batting this back.

942
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 3: So I'll start off just talking about policymakers. There's so

943
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,919
Speaker 3: much that can be done. They can use regulation, legislation, leading,

944
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 3: and then there's you know, government investigations, public shaming of

945
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 3: bad actors. There's domestic you know, diplomatic initiatives to counter obstruction.

946
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 3: We're seeing now being led by Brazil and France and

947
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 3: UNESCO for example. I'm trying to save you know, to

948
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 3: address climate information integrity through the UN process, and that's

949
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 3: driven by you know, strong country national leaders. And I

950
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 3: think you know, policymakers can put in place laws to

951
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 3: increase transparency, prohibiting deceptive practices like greenwashing. There's a great

952
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 3: EEU directives and so on that I think are path

953
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 3: breaking and should be considered being copied around the world.

954
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 3: So anyway, that's policymakers. I think lawyers have a big

955
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 3: role to play right now. I mean currently in the

956
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 3: US conjuncture, their lawyers are critical in fighting back against

957
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 3: substruction by failing lawsuits against the firms involved in the

958
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 3: obstruction and either directly and there's the case of state

959
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 3: attorney general's attorneys general or indirectly on behalf of point

960
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 3: of such as NGOs. These and lawyers are really important.

961
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: So I think i'll leave it there.

962
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 5: Maybe I'll just jump in on sorry, jump in on lawyers,

963
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 5: because I think we should also mention the ICJ, the

964
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 5: International Court of Justice decision the other day, right there's

965
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 5: huge decision and this was led by states. We've mentioned

966
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 5: states like Vanuatu, but some of these states like Solomon

967
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 5: Islands and others that Barrister's working on their behalf that

968
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 5: had this amazing decision and it really put the fossil

969
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 5: fuel industry on notice and found that you know, states

970
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 5: could be liable, could be held liable even if they continued,

971
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 5: for example, to provide a fossil fuel subsidies for example.

972
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 5: So I think, as Timmins was saying, you know, the

973
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 5: legal avenues are really ramping up. The US has been

974
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 5: leading on that front, but we've seen other avenues as well.

975
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 5: We've seen in the book we mentioned Human Rights Commission

976
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 5: in the Philippines for example, that looked into whether some

977
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 5: of these entities that willfully engaged in climate instruction and

978
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 5: found that they had. And then I think the ICAJI

979
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 5: decision just last week will really kind of transform some

980
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 5: of the legal discussions in a range of countries.

981
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 2: I mean, one month before the ICJ, there was a

982
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: decision by the Inter American Court of Justice, and I

983
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: think that was a very interesting decision too, because it

984
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 2: results from a very long process of consultation with civil

985
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 2: society and scholarship here in Latin America, our group here,

986
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: our observatory, we participated together with a bunch of other

987
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: scholars and research groups and civil society organ decitions to

988
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 2: send information to the court. And as a result of

989
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 2: all this consultation process, the deliberation of the judges, they

990
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: came up with a vision which incorporates the right to

991
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: a sound climate, I mean a stable claims it as

992
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: a human right, and that is that gives me precedence,

993
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 2: which is really important for the connection to the human

994
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 2: rights regime with the climate regime.

995
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 4: I would just add that this section is a challenge

996
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 4: including in the lawsuits. As mentioned, you know, deception and

997
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 4: obstruction gets folded into a lot of climate cases, but

998
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 4: the way in which obs section is sometimes litigated directly

999
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 4: is most often through these greenwashing cases where they accuse

1000
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 4: a company potentially of lying to consumers or misleading consumers

1001
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 4: in a way that we would also see as obstructions.

1002
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 4: So in twenty twenty one, the first case of that

1003
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 4: for the met and dare industry occurred in Denmark with

1004
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 4: this case against Danish Crown who was claiming that it's

1005
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 4: pork was climate friendly, and Danish Crown lost that lawsuit,

1006
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 4: and now there are many more lawsuits in that ilk.

1007
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 4: And so again a challenge in the book I think

1008
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 4: was to focus in on climate obstruction activism, you know,

1009
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 4: not divestment, but uncoke my Campus as a form of

1010
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 4: obstruction related activism. And so I love Uncoke my Campus example,

1011
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 4: and I also love this example of a podcast called Drilled,

1012
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 4: which has drilled into the history of climate obstruction for

1013
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 4: many years now and has really provided I think, a

1014
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 4: much stronger understanding of the difference between greenhouse gas pollution

1015
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 4: and information pollution. And they work together, but they are distinct.

1016
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 7: Yeah it's kiddy, Okay, last question, we are heading into

1017
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 7: this COP. You just mentioned the climate information integrity efforts.

1018
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 7: There has been this big push to kind of make

1019
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 7: this the COP where we get ahead of climate disinformation,

1020
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 7: and I'm curious what you guys think about that, and Also,

1021
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 7: how is it different to focus on climate disinformation as

1022
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 7: opposed to climate obstruction.

1023
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just say two things about that. I think

1024
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 2: it's important to see climate disinformation as one of the

1025
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 2: key modalities of climate instruction. Right, if you take climate

1026
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 2: obstruction as an umbrella concept, they are of course connected.

1027
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 2: They're different, but one is part of the other. And

1028
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: I think that framing there's new framing. I really found

1029
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 2: it fascinating when I read and I discovered a global

1030
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 2: initiative about information integrity. I'm also a member of the

1031
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: i p IE International Panel on Information Environment. We just

1032
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 2: published another report concerning information about science and climate change.

1033
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 2: And I think that all these efforts to frame climate

1034
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 2: disinformation as an attack on information integrity changes the game,

1035
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: because who is going to be against integrity? Right? You

1036
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: have to be very brave to say publicly that you

1037
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: are against integrity any sort of integrity, right, and information

1038
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 2: integrity being the one that we're talking about. Whereas climate

1039
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 2: is information, I think that it has been very often

1040
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 2: conflated with a kind of a left wing progressive political

1041
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 2: banner or something like this, right, whereas information integrity gives

1042
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 2: a new, I think, a new avenue for action on

1043
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:19,959
Speaker 2: climate atroduction on climate discordition, with the support of key

1044
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: organizations like the Yuan UNESCO, governments like France, Chile, Brazil

1045
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 2: or the countries, and we need to spread this message

1046
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 2: very wide and it's going to be part of COP thirty.

1047
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the Brazilian government so very quickly. The connection

1048
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 2: between the climate information integrity and the possibility to fight

1049
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 2: against the far right in Brazil. It does it for

1050
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 2: the sake of climate, for the sake of the COP agenda,

1051
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 2: but also for the sake of presidential elections next year.

1052
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1053
01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very excited about this new initiative on the climate,

1054
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 3: the Global Initiative for Climate Information Integrity, as Carlos just described,

1055
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 3: And we do have a lot to credit to be

1056
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 3: given to Brazil for taking this up as one of

1057
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 3: the key areas that it's going to be putting forward

1058
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 3: as part of the COP thirty negotiations. So it's great

1059
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 3: to see this as a key issue. Information integrity is

1060
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 3: kind of an area that's discreet enough to try to

1061
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: go after, but you're right that it's just a small

1062
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 3: portion of the global the total amount of obstruction that

1063
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: happens on climate change. You know, Bob Brule says that

1064
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 3: it's probably twenty percent or maybe even less of the

1065
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 3: whole obstruction, that a lot of obstruction is just based

1066
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 3: on structural power of the big actors who can keep

1067
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 3: the system the way it is. And you know, this

1068
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 3: is never going to be easy to address climate change.

1069
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 3: People would rather just keep things the way they are.

1070
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 3: People fear change, but you know these actors are making

1071
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 3: it much more difficult. So it would be very exciting

1072
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 3: if an ambitious, truly ambitious country you would follow up

1073
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 3: on Brazil's effort. And we have Australia will be hosting

1074
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 3: COP thirty one. So what do you think, Christian, Will

1075
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 3: they carry the ball down the field from Brazil?

1076
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, let's see what happens. We're still

1077
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 5: waiting on Actually Turkey and Australia are still bidding at

1078
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 5: the moment. They haven't decided, which is a bit of

1079
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 5: a problem actually because we need whichever country is going

1080
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 5: to become the host to sort that out soon. So

1081
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 5: they've got a long enough runway to actually prepare and

1082
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 5: do something. But yeah, I'd be very excited if Australia

1083
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 5: kind of built on what Brazil's doing on the disinformation

1084
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 5: front because, as Tim and says, we need every actor

1085
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 5: in the world, whether it's a state, clean energy, businesses,

1086
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 5: civil society, everybody to get on board and pull towards

1087
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 5: climate action and to push back against what we've been

1088
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 5: talking about what the role of Saudi Arabia and other

1089
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 5: countries are doing in this space. So fingers cross Brazil,

1090
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 5: you know, steps up to the plate, which which it

1091
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 5: looks like it might, and then either Australia or Turkey

1092
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 5: carries forward in the year after.

1093
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 4: If there's one lesson that studying climate obstruction should teach

1094
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 4: you is to not rest heavily on any set of laurels,

1095
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 4: whether it's cop national governments, subnational governments, you're a local newspaper.

1096
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 4: Wherever door closes, the window opens for this industry. And

1097
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 4: it's about all fronts at all times, by all people

1098
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 4: who are concerned. And I don't think there's time to

1099
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 4: stand by and watch what happens. We have to be

1100
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 4: ready for I think the obstruction that will come even

1101
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 4: around great terms like climate integrity or information integrity. Sorry,

1102
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 4: because we've already seen in the past. You know, it's like, oh,

1103
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 4: global warming is politicized, so let's call it climate change

1104
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 4: and that will help move things forward. And we've been

1105
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 4: here before so many times.

1106
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 5: You can imagine there's some office somewhere in Washington day say,

1107
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 5: where Edelman's already brainstorming how to we reframe climate integrity

1108
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 5: right like, it's probably already happening.

1109
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, this is an industry and it's a

1110
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 3: big part of the whole society. But the industry is

1111
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 3: in its death throws and it's again the most powerful

1112
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 3: industry in the world, and it's not going down quietly,

1113
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 3: that's for sure.

1114
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 4: No.

1115
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 2: I understand, and I agree to a certain extent, but

1116
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 2: I think that right now it is a very progressive

1117
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 2: agenda to talk about climate information integrity. Right now, they

1118
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 2: maybe brainstorming, but they don't have yet an answer to that.

1119
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 2: So we should focus on that because I think that

1120
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 2: it's something that could help us at least deep locks

1121
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 2: some doors and unlock some windows or us for action

1122
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 2: and to do research.

1123
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 7: So awesome, all right, thanks guys.

1124
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: This season of Drill was reported and written by me

1125
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: Amy Westerbelt and produced by Peter Duff and Martin zeltz Astwik.

1126
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: Our theme music is Bird in the Hand by Forenoon.

1127
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: Our cover art was created by Matthew Fleming. Our First

1128
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: Amendment Attorney is James Wheaton with the First Amendment Project.

1129
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: We are also proud members of Reporters Shield. You can

1130
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 1: get more information on climate obstruction and what's been happening

1131
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: with international climate negotiations in recent years on our website

1132
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 1: at drill dot Media. You can also sign up for

1133
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: our newsletter there. Thanks for listening and we'll see you

1134
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 1: next time.