WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 61 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.759 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:28.480 can make your own decisions. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.920 good night, Hello, and welcome. So it could happen here. 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.599 It is three pm in the winter, so it's all 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.720 of those at once. So for here that is true. 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:47.879 That is true. It is seven here, it's regular evening time. Yeah, 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:54.200 no winter included, you know, just rain Unhot's the two 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:59.200 moods of the web. Yeah, which winter is it right now? 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:06.840 Is did rain to a hot winter? Neither? There? Winters never? Well, 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.679 I hope that winter never comes to the island. If 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.120 it does, I think will be in some deep ship. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:18.960 You know. If you guys get snowing, its time frestle 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.400 to reevaluate our practices when that happen. Until the absolutely 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:27.119 that means the parrots have migrated to Alaska. Oh, God, 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.800 they knew a lot of movements around the evening time, 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.280 so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pack 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.399 up and leave us all behind. Well this is it 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.160 could happen here as as you might be aware, a 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:46.280 podcast about things falling apart, and today's episode is brought 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:52.040 to us by Andrew Hello of the YouTube channel Andrewism. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:57.240 Just avoid confusion with other Andrews, you know, I did 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.880 not realize. Yeah, that's right, son of the Queen. Yeah, 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:03.640 you know, you can talk about Prince Andrew. You can 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.320 talk about Andrew teeth. You know, it's like distinguished myself, 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:13.440 you know. Yeah, you're the best, Andrew. I appreciate that anytime, buddy. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.760 So I'd like to spend some time today tonight what 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.079 is time really and to talk about the concept of 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.840 d growth, you know, where it comes from, what it means, 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.240 what it needs, and all that other fun stuff. Are 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.440 you guys familiar with the growth US as a concept? Yeah, 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.520 a little bit. Yeah, I mean, and it's yeah, I 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.960 I please please. I mean it's one of those things 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.240 that gets a lot of like uh flak on one 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.400 hand for people saying that it's basically eco fascism, and 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.639 then you have folks being like, no, it's a it's 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.200 a perfectly reasonable response to the kind of endless growth 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.279 attitude that got us into the environmental catastrophe we're currently experiencing. 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:03.440 That's yeah, I think that Having released a video on 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:08.280 Decruth last week and having read through some of the 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:14.840 comments have received, um, I've come to the conclusion that's 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:21.919 there's no getting through to some people. Yeah. People, people 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.160 love to listen to like a third of what you 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.280 say and then get really angry at what they think 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.280 you said. Every time we talk about like the value 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.720 of of things like you know, the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective, 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.240 you know, hacking different medicines or training people being medics. 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.600 Somebody hops on the subred and said, I think it's 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:40.560 kind of able. Is that they think that, you know, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.600 people can replace doctors with with street medics. Like, no one, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.720 no one's ever made that case. That that's not a 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.480 thing that anyone has ever said. I'm going to make 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.400 it my entire life mission to only specifically make this 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:57.680 case some gauze and water in a bag. Yeah, doctors, 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.680 but they they must all die when the revolution comes. 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.360 They will only be replaced the street that X, it's 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.560 gonna be great. I'm texting all of this to our 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.320 friends cover right now, Dr Whoda. Yeah, it's just it's 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.600 just ridiculous. So people will literally project what they think 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.000 you said onto what you actually said. It's very very 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.200 obvious when it's taken place. I don't know how they 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.800 will feel embarrassed. You know, a lot of times I 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.159 barely comment on things. I barely respond to things, and 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.920 when I do, I check and recheck and re check 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.760 what the person has said. Then I check and recheck 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.760 and recheck what I see before I get the statement, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:38.400 because I don't know how do I feel embarrassed? Yeah, 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.320 like everybody who has watched the video conceded you haven't 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.560 watched it. They've just had like a term search and 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:50.719 then appeared and yeah, and like, yeah, come to engage 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.800 you pretty much pretty much. But I mean, if I 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.440 were to be a sleeve for the algorithm, I would 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.560 say all that engagement helps, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm sure 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.560 it doesn't helps. It helps one thing for sure, Yeah, 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:08.120 help get us to a better place. Unfortunately, and speaking 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.480 of things that do not help us get to a 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.400 better place, I think it's the growth primarily is about 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:22.200 confronting this destructive ideology of growthism. You know, something we 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.039 see all around us, something we interact with on a 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.799 failure regular basis. You see the images of the Amazon 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:33.040 rainforest being cut down to be um, turning into soy 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:37.960 firms until eventually it's made into a cattle grease in fields. 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.880 You talk about the constant expansion of oil infrastructure, You 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.440 talk about the constant expansion of mining operations, You talk 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.960 about the continued rise of fast fashion. That people are 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:54.120 extremely defensive whenever you try to criticize it. Um, all 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:59.920 of these systems, all of these industries, all of these practices, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:05.640 is uh part of part and parcel, or rather products 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:10.400 of this ideology of growth is um that capitalism is 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.920 driven by. And I know it may be strange for 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.960 some people to sort of deep program from this idea 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:27.320 that growth is like an unadulterated could uncontroversially positive because 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:30.680 you know, natures like all about growth, right. You know, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.920 when you think of growth, you think of a plant 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:35.520 speaking out of the soil. You think of a baby 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.000 kitten growing up to be a cat. You talk about 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:43.239 like babies becoming toddlers, becoming young children, becoming older children, becoming, 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.600 you know, tweens and teens and then finally adults and 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:54.960 then from there Joe biden. Um. But you know, there's 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.560 this whole idea of growth, and that growth is like 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.719 a natural part of life. That is true. But growth 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.080 in life does not go on and on and on 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.800 and on. You know. Organisms grow up to a certain 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.920 point and then they maintain a healthy equilibrium, or at 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.640 least they try to. Um. Of course, health is not 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.920 necessarily a natural state of affairs, because viruses are just 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.280 as natural as the cells they attack. And then you 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.600 can also get all uh femeral and talk about personal 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.400 growth and how life is a constant journey of personal 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.640 growth and whatever. But speaking materially, we can physically, growth 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.360 has a limit. People grow up to a certain height, 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.920 certain size, and so on, and when growth doesn't stop, 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.480 that's when we start run into problems. As I understand, 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.360 the reason that cancer is so difficult to cure is 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.160 because your own body turning against you. It's your it's 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.600 some of the many trillions of your own cells deciding okay, 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.440 time to just grow and grow and grow without limit. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.280 And what happens in most of those cases, and many 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.480 of those cases rather unfortunately people die as a result. 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.640 So our bodies and our own bodies, we understand that 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:16.280 growth is not always positive, and yet that's sick logic 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.920 of growth for its own sake is exactly what the 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.000 global economy relies on. So that's just think that's too 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.760 much growth, too much money, too much stuff. And you 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.760 have all these wealthy nations to continue to expand and 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.400 grow and attempt to hold I heard one person use 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.400 the analogy a camemberhood was um talking about how capitalism 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:41.040 is now attempting to the new frontiers. For capitalism is 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.880 to expand and colonize our own minds um. And so 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.360 every economy, every sector, every industry is expected to keep growing, 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:55.000 keep growing, keep growing, no matter what. One of the 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.439 responses that I got on my video on the growth 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.480 is that, oh, well you're seeing that growth is this 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.280 im growthsma is this capitalist thing. But you know China 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.959 and USSR, and they grew and they industrialized and they 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:17.160 are just as susceptible to ecological destruction as any other 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:21.760 capitalist country. And that is true, but that's also part 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:26.400 of why I would consider those countries to be um 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:32.480 state capitalist projects UM and not anything close to what 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.880 I envisioned. But of course, the moment you introduce any 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:47.120 idea that sounds even vaguely socially oriented, even vaguely ecologically oriented, um, 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.680 people automatically assume you're trying to go for like new 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:57.920 United Soviet Socialist Republic. But I think we need to 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:02.439 explore different paths to improve in quality of life, to 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:07.000 code and code developing. And that's a tricky subject I'll 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.400 get into a bit later. But we need to think 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.480 of way as that we can help people and help 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:20.480 people live better lives without relying and desperating the bias fare. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.720 It's a tricky conversation to be had, um, because when 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.200 people think of growth, they think, if it as a positive, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:34.800 I want you to criticize that positive. They think the inverse. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.959 They think you're trying to make everybody degrade and go 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.400 down to like a wost quality of life, to rush 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:46.920 back to to like a lower life expectancy, What transform 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.920 a mode of production back to like hunting and gathering. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:57.960 But the truth is that deep growth as a movement, 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:03.680 as to stem of thought, is more so about trying 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.040 to find that balance between a good quality of life 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.280 for all, not just this unequal quality of life that 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.360 we see around the world and the capitalism while also 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:18.680 balancing the fact that we live in material world. We 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.640 live on a planet that has limited resources. We need 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.920 to balance those resources. We need to consider and be 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:32.200 good stewards of you know, uh planet that we share 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:39.240 with other living creatures. Capitalism really is driven by this 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:46.760 ideology of growthism because it is structurally incentivized. Structurally, it 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.679 is a structural imperative in the capitalist system. It's not 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:56.440 exclusively driven by greed, as some people assume. I think 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.599 that's that that this idea that it's all up to 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:04.800 like personalities, kind of hampers people's ability to analyze systems 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:11.760 because it doesn't matter whether, um, we suddenly put each 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.920 and every CEO in a position where they are all 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.920 completely one hundreds and altruistic. It's not that they all 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:25.040 being driven by greed. It's because under capitalism, you know, 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:31.040 capitalists own capital, and capital that is stagnant is capital 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.880 that is losing its value, and so they look for 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.680 things to invest in so they can grow their capital. 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:42.160 Capital being anything from real estate, factories, machinery, intellectual property, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.160 financial assets. What is the money that they used to 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:47.880 make more money? If it's stagnant, it's losing value, and 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:52.400 they're trying to increase its value. UM as they see gold. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.560 Companies that have growing profits year after year, so their 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.840 capital will grow year after year. And if that crew 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.120 slews down, they pull out and look elsewhere to invest. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:06.040 Companies that failed to grow will lose their investors and collapse. 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.440 And so companies do everything their power to maintain growth 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.280 so they can maintain the investors, regardless of how much 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.880 havoc they reach upon the world. So if any barriers 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.800 are preventing their growth, they had to bulldoz those barriers. 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.439 You know, Environmental protections are barriers, labor lowers are barriers, protections, 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:30.439 policies are barriers. The commons were a barrier, Indigenous populations 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.160 were a barrier, and so on and so forth. All 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.320 of these acts of violence open up these new frontiers 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:41.760 for growth, for appropriation, for accumulation, and so incomes the growth. 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:47.199 Or the French term for it is the croissant um, 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.640 and I know that I likely pronounced that incorrectly. It's 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:57.160 the French. We can disrespect them precisely. I think um 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.480 things to sit down, reflect on their new cluing, the 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:05.200 empire um. But anyway, this idea of the growth really 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.000 first was developed. I have to say that I appreciate 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.640 what the intellectuals have come up with. They're good at 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.240 sitting down and thinking about stuff. I'll give them that. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.200 I'll give them that. So there's one French intellectual guy 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.560 named Andrea Course in vent two coined the tomb de 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:30.000 consin French. For the growth go has basically posed a 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:36.440 question that remains at the center of the growth is 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.840 the Earth's balance, for which no growth or even the 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.680 growth of material production is a necessary condition compatible with 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:50.840 the survival of the capitalist system. I would Mangae to say, no, 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.400 it is not in any way compactible with this mavel 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.800 the capitalist system, because we have seen it in this 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.200 short period of time that the capitalism has existed, it 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:07.240 has rapidly triggered the capital scene, or as some people 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.760 regrettably called the anthropocene. It has rapidly triggered the sixth 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:16.080 great mass extinction event um. And so I do not 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:20.920 believe that the Earth's balance it's compatible with its survival. 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:26.360 And so the Croissant movement of activists mainly flourished in 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.480 Lyon in the early two thousand's. In the week of 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.520 protests for car free cities, communal meals in the streets, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:39.680 food cooperatives, and campaigns against advertising. It went from France 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:47.080 to Italy, where agreed and anti globalization activists h mobilized 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:56.400 against this whole concept of capitalisms, constant encroachments and expansion 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:02.280 and growth expanded into Catalonia in Spain in two thousand six. 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:07.920 It eventually built up to the size where I could 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:15.320 sustain a movement a magazine rather Crossan which currently sells 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.720 a few thousand copies a month. Around the same time, 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.360 in two thousand four, a research and activist named France 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.120 Swash Schneider took a year long walking tour on a 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:33.160 donkey to disseminate the growth throughout France and that received 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:39.360 some media coverage. Eventually, Schneider founded an academic collective known 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.320 as Research and the Growth along with Dennis Bayonne and 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:50.640 February Free Poo, and they eventually began international conferences went 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.040 in Paris into those and eight and the second in Barcelona. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.560 So the English term de growth was officially used for 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.600 the first time at the Paris conference, which really marked 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.600 the booth of the international research community around the growth. 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.240 Following the success of the conferences in Paris and Barcelona. 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.840 Other conferences were held in Montreal in twenty eleven, Venice 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.719 and twelve, Leipzig fourteen uh and the growth as an 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:23.639 idea spread to groups in Flanders, Switzerland, Finland, Poland, Greece, Germany, Portugal, Norway, Denmark, 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.640 Czech Republic like guess it's a check here now, Mexico, Brazil, 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:32.359 Puerto Rico, Canada, Bulgaria, Romania and elsewhere. The growth as 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.760 an idea, as in a movement has been getting ground, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.359 despite the criticisms that somehow that oh, well, you can't 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.080 call it something negative like the growth, because people wouldn't 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.879 be you know, happy with it or whatever. Um. And 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.600 I'll get to that criticism in a bit. But it's 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.119 been steadily gruin since it was first you know, developed 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:56.400 in the nineteen seventies. Um. At this point in time, 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.120 if you go on the the Growth website, you will 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:07.920 find thousands of articles and studies in their library. And 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.120 of course it's not to say that because of concept 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:16.000 has a lot of followers or thinkers or published works, 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:23.119 it's automatically h a, okay, ultimately correct. But at this 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.320 point in time, I think a lot of people are 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.160 looking at direction we are going in and recognizing that 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.520 we cannot continue along this path of growth, and so 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.840 they are actively looking for a way out, looking for 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.600 a way to find that balance, recognizing that capitalism is 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:45.600 not compatible with the Earth's balance. And so the Growth 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:51.119 ultimately rejects the illusion of growth. It calls to re 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:57.000 politicize the public debate that has been colonized by the 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:04.879 idiom of economism um that has been driven towards as 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:10.320 a social objective, economic growth. The Growth is a project 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:16.840 advocating for the democratically lead shrinking of production and consumption 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:21.320 with the aim of achieving social justice and ecological sustainability. 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:27.040 I think when some people care degrowth, despite all the 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:31.320 explanations out there, despite even consumers explanations, they might still 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.280 have this idea and they had the degrowth is this 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:40.000 thing where bunch of armed, government sponsored environmental activists roll 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.359 up and take your car and your house and force 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.480 you to live in a cave. Um. But de grow that. 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.240 How we de grow our economy is going to rely 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:56.479 on the popular um involvement of the people. You know, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.439 It's not like you could just snap your fingers or 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:03.639 just decreate and make it so, Um, it's not meant 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:08.000 to be like how it is under new liberalism, where 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.320 you have all this austerity. The growth is supposed to 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.480 be all of us coming together to this to figure 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:19.280 out how we can live in alignment with our biosphere, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:24.959 with our bioregion, with the planet, scaling down our individual 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:32.240 and our community um supply chains, and localizing our consumption 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:39.320 in order to reduce the reliance on this highly extractive, 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.480 highly growth dependent, cabulist global capitalists economy. The growth also 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:50.440 signifies a direction, a desired direction, one in which society 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.200 is use fewer natural resources and organize and live much 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.160 differently than they live today. The ideas of you know, sharing, 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:06.119 which is something we teach the preschoolers, simplicity, conviviality, care, 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:14.040 and the commons primary concepts in terms of what a 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:19.359 deecret society should look like. Uh. In one of my 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.600 previous podcast episodes that would have discussed the Commons a bit, 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.439 so if anyone is curious about what the Commons are, 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.639 they could check that out. Um. And of course on 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.520 my channel also speak about the Commons as an institution 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.560 and about libraries of things, and so the growth has 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:39.800 offered a sort of a framework that connects all these 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:46.720 different ideas, concepts, proposals UM with the criticism of growth, 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.560 with the criticism of GDP, with the criticism of commodification 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:56.240 UM the process that converts social products and socio ecological 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.840 services and relations into commodities of the monetary value. On 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.720 the constructive side, because the growth is not just limited 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:13.159 to criticism, do you imagines reproductive economies of care, the 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.160 reclamation of all and the creation of new commons man 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:24.159 need and natural caring for commons in communal forms of 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:29.000 living and producing UM, liberating our time from work and 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.760 making it available to caring for our communities and caring 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.480 for our ecology. Because if you think about all of 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.639 the activities that are currently so needed at this point 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:45.959 in time in terms of ecological restoration, in terms of 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:54.480 um DE growth, they're not profitable. You know, planting man 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:59.520 grooves to shore up our shows, to defend our shows 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:06.399 from your waning from storms is not profitable. Replanting forests 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:13.639 and sparking nature's processes of eclosial restoration not profitable. And 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:19.600 of course there is a whole sorts of ecosystem, economic, political, 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.879 ecosystem dedicated to these kinds of projects with all the 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:29.320 NGOs and government organizations involved in replanting the Sahel region 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.679 in Africa, for example, creasingly create green wall. But those 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:36.720 projects tend to be righte with issues and a lack 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:41.320 of intendence because they do not involve local communities in 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:48.560 the decision making surrounding um that process of restoration. And 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:50.880 on top of that, of course, these projects are not 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:55.440 embedded in broad ut project for the growth. So a 0:23:55.520 --> 0:24:01.159 government a government might be planting trees, planting forests in 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:06.199 one part of the country and extracting and drilling in 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:12.080 another part of the country, and so there needs to 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:14.440 be an integration of all these different projects with a 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:22.120 brother push and direction towards the growth. I want to 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.000 go back around to this idea that UM the growth 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:30.680 is a critique of GDP as a concept. UM the 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.080 growth is not necessarily the same as negative GDP growth. 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.480 But when you consider how GDP is measured, as it's counted, 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:45.640 it's about financial transactions and not necessarily the non financial ones. 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:50.600 And so if we were to crean our economy, if 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:55.199 we were to DeCrow our society, UM we're not going 0:24:55.240 --> 0:25:00.119 to be seeing the really grows. Domestic activity increases of 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:03.239 two or three percent. Yeah, there's there's an old like 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:07.080 two eleven slogan that's, uh if when the bank takes 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:14.159 your house, that increases GDP, Right, that is true. That 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:18.639 is true. A lot of uh, positive and constructive and 0:25:18.680 --> 0:25:23.080 beneficial actions that people do on a regular basis do 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:29.040 not contribute to g P, whereas entire destructive industries contributes 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:34.800 significantly its every month. We started this by talking by 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:37.760 comparing kind of the quest for endless growth to a cancer, 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:41.080 but I almost think it's a better comparison. Is Like, 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:43.560 you know, there was that article early this year about 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:47.159 how specific kinds of people, particularly like rich weirdos in 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:50.040 the tech industry, are paying thousands of dollars to have 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:53.280 their legs broken and like lengthened so that they can 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:57.880 like that's that's that's a that's a shipload of how 0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:00.360 act Like, Yeah, I mean it's weaker, they can never 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:03.199 we can never run again. But you are technically taller, 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:09.280 so we'll count on as growth. Yeah, go up. Much 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:13.600 of a coward to wear platforms? Yeah yeah, so you don't. 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:16.640 You don't have the hotspot to be a short king. Unbelievable. 0:26:17.920 --> 0:26:21.440 Sometimes I do think that like when anthropologists on civilization 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:24.199 the wonder why were so fascinated about line go up? 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:27.200 But then they realized that the whole point of the 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:33.760 civilization was line go up. Like that that was oddity, truly, truly, 0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:40.000 it's it's it's I don't know. My eyes my eyes 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:45.040 bleed sometimes thinking about how this whole system is structured 0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:48.320 and how it just continues to chug along. But um, 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:51.879 that's why I spend so much time writing and reading 0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:55.159 and talking about these issues, right, trying to find a 0:26:55.200 --> 0:27:00.040 whee out. And so that is also what de with 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:04.080 advocates are looking to do, the looking for a way out, 0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:07.440 you know, a way for a better life first of all, 0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:11.800 which brings me to the whole criticism of the growth 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:16.760 that is essentially optics. Right. They say it's not appropriate 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:21.280 to use a negative word to signify desired positive changes, 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:28.159 but the growth advocates deliberately choose I mean, in my 0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:31.119 videw I said that I'm fine with either quality growth 0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:35.000 or qualitate post growth or whatever. But the growth advocates 0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:39.639 have chosen the term de growth for a reason. The 0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:45.400 use of negation for a positive project is aimed towards 0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:51.440 creating that sort of um questioning, you know, towards getting 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:56.160 people to reconsider this idea of growth as a ultimate 0:27:56.240 --> 0:28:01.640 could to de colonize imagination that has been dominated by 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:06.639 this whole capitalist conception of the future, consistent of you know, 0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:11.159 line go up. Is this automatic assumption and association of 0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:15.159 growth with better that the word the growth wants to dismantle, 0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:20.840 wants to be constructed sod. Growth is a deliberately subversive slogan. 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:29.040 And of course the growth is not aimed at, you know, 0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:34.840 deconstructing the most necessary sectors, the devolved in the most 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:39.120 necessary sectors. We're not talking about de grow and education, 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:42.920 de grow in, medical care, de grow in you know, well, 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.520 renewable energy is kind of a tricky subject, but DeCrow 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:52.880 and renewable energy, UM, it's more so about primarily and 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:56.200 first of all targets in the most duty and destructive industries, 0:28:56.800 --> 0:29:00.720 you know, the financial sector. UM. We would prefer to 0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:07.440 see institutions like health and education flourish rather than crew 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:11.840 or develop. We want to change that is qualitative, not 0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:17.240 necessarily quantitative. You want to see a flourishing of the arts, 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:26.160 of flourishing of philosophies, a flourishing of um vernacular architectures 0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:32.520 and flourishing of the creativity of people. And that's qualitative. 0:29:33.120 --> 0:29:35.720 It's not about oh well, line go up, so things 0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:38.560 more good. You know. It's not about we have ten 0:29:38.720 --> 0:29:43.720 industrial outputs last year, now we have twelve. That's so good. 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:47.320 You know, we want something. We want quality to change that. 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:50.240 And if most people really sit down and think about 0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:54.000 what they want in their life, I don't think a 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:56.080 lot of people are gonna are gonna think of, oh well, 0:29:56.160 --> 0:30:02.760 I want next year's iPhone to have a twelve increase 0:30:02.880 --> 0:30:06.880 in the camera quality. You know, it's more so that 0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:17.400 you want better you know, rest um more um, connected communities, 0:30:18.960 --> 0:30:26.120 healthier commute or healthier UM I guess city layout. UM. 0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:31.080 It's more conducive to interaction. It's more conducive to small 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:36.560 scale movement. It's not about, like I said, you know, 0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:41.160 it's not about trying to get line to go up. Cryptocurrency, 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:42.960 as I think about it, it's like perhaps the best 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:44.959 example or like n f T s right, like they 0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:48.480 created a bunch of value that literally created nothing. I 0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:54.480 had nothing other than exchange value exactly exactly. It's just nonsense. Yeah, 0:30:55.200 --> 0:31:00.920 pretend money. I talk for a moment about like development 0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:05.600 as a concept, right, because another common criticism of the 0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:09.040 growth is that, oh, well, what about the global South, 0:31:09.120 --> 0:31:11.840 what about the Third world? What about all the poor 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.040 countries and poor people of the world. You just want 0:31:14.040 --> 0:31:19.080 to leave them behind? And from one I find it 0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:23.000 strange because the person in question, at least the video 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:27.720 response that I got, simplicitly assumes that I am from 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:30.840 like a global North nichetion and I'm just fine sitting 0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:34.480 down with my you know, um, same day Amazon delivery 0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:41.840 and Starbucks and um, sprawling suburbs and whatever it is 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:45.760 that you know, they imagine my lifestyle is like. But 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.200 I think first and foremost parts of the whole move 0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:54.520 a t growth is to consider, um, like I said, reason, 0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:59.520 improving people's quality of life worldwide, which capitalism is not 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:05.320 interested in. Coupitism will maintain a perpetual underclass because they're 0:32:05.320 --> 0:32:10.800 easier to exploit. And so this is whole idea of development, 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:15.840 right that has this baggage. Um, it's very colonial baggage. 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:21.360 But it's development is really like growth. It's meant to 0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:26.680 have like a limit. It's an unfolding towards a predetermined end. 0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:32.160 You know, an embryo eventually develops into a fetus, so 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:35.320 she eventually develops into a baby. She eventually develops into 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.479 a child, she eventually develops into an adult who then 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:43.200 ages and dies. But development for the sake of development, 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:47.400 with no end, with no ams, with no goals, with 0:32:47.560 --> 0:32:53.000 no sense of um self critique or questioning, It's a 0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:56.680 disaster waiting to happen. I can look at my own 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.080 country and from Trenon to Vigo for those who don't know, 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.440 and think of things that need to get better, right, 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.640 Things that would really improve people's quality of life. UM. 0:33:08.840 --> 0:33:11.200 To think about the fact that we really need to 0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:15.040 get rid of our reliance and cars and bring back 0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:18.960 our training system UM that was dismantled so long ago. 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:23.960 I could think about the fact that we need to 0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:29.480 improve our food or autonomy because we are extremely reliant 0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:34.200 on food imports. UM. Things like that I can think 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:37.120 about that would improve people's ability to live well and 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:42.800 sustainably on this island. But those things, those aims, those 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:47.560 are those are cools, right. I'm just thinking, oh, development, development, development. 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:51.600 I'm thinking, Okay, there's point B. How do I get 0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:56.320 there from point A? How are we going to meet 0:33:56.400 --> 0:34:02.960 people's basic needs? And this whole and the whole deep 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:06.800 with projects is really about that whole conversation between the 0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:09.560 globle North and the Global Salt. Right, the global North 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:12.880 needs to reduce their demand for a lot of the 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:15.920 resources and goods so that they're more accessible to the 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:22.000 Global Salt. But in making those things more accessible, places 0:34:22.040 --> 0:34:26.719 in the Global Salt are not meant to follow the 0:34:26.840 --> 0:34:29.600 same path that the Goloble North took that put us 0:34:29.640 --> 0:34:32.040 in our mess. The whole ideas that we need to 0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:36.319 find a different path, We need to find a different trajectory. 0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:40.520 We need to think for ourselves instead of trying to 0:34:40.640 --> 0:34:43.840 keep up with the Joneses in order to determine what 0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:47.840 a good life would mean for us in our ecological niche, 0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:53.440 in our geographical situation. Yeah, what us. It's like we did, 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:55.440 we did we we did. We did this in China, right, 0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:57.800 like we did the entire development thing. And the product 0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:01.399 is now like people literally sucking eighteen miles on foot 0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:03.480 after having broken out of a fox con factory that 0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:06.440 they've been locked in and forced to make iPhones because 0:35:06.680 --> 0:35:08.840 someone had like three people have gotten COVID, so they 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:12.000 just like locked everyone in the factory. So like you 0:35:12.080 --> 0:35:15.520 know it, Yeah, and I think it's also sort of 0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:19.360 like briefly worth mentioning that like development as a concept 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:22.080 and the sort of developmental economics field was like this 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:24.400 was like specifically developed in sort of the bowels of 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:26.960 the American State Department as as a response to like 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:30.520 basically as like as a way as a kind of 0:35:30.600 --> 0:35:33.920 like simplified capitalist version of Marxist theory they could throw 0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:36.080 out to sort of like explain what was happening in 0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:39.320 like as as as as a sort of an alternative 0:35:39.360 --> 0:35:43.719 Demarxism for like all these sort of like newly post 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:48.160 colonial nations. And you know, it's gone about as well 0:35:48.320 --> 0:35:51.880 as you would expect. I think the valles of the 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:58.960 State Department to be alternative department. Like, well this has 0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:04.440 been fun. Um, I love I don't know thinking about capital. 0:36:04.520 --> 0:36:07.400 I mean this is it's this is important because like 0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:10.359 we always need to be thinking about what comes next. 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:13.040 This is constantly like a problem that the left has 0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:16.640 and certainly a problem the liberals have, which is that, um, 0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:21.279 the vision of the future is very rarely anything more 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:25.640 than fighting against kind of the demons of the moment, 0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:28.520 as opposed to like what does it actually look like 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.479 to get ourselves to a better place, to a place 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:34.040 that's more sustainable, both in an environmental level and in 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:38.160 like in a manner of human ecology too, And um, yeah, 0:36:38.239 --> 0:36:40.239 I think this is like, this is kind of the 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:43.200 hard work that people need to be thinking about. Wherever 0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:45.959 you wind up landing on on d growth as either 0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:48.520 a concept or as a term like, these are the 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:51.400 paths we have to start beating out of the bush, 0:36:51.600 --> 0:37:00.640 you know, exactly. So there are many potential that already 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:03.040 been thought up, and there are many that have yet 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:11.839 to be imagined. In Ecuador, the project of Sumac, Say 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:16.279 and really the rest of Latin America, the idea of 0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:21.880 green vivere in much of South Africa, the concept of 0:37:21.960 --> 0:37:29.320 Ubuntu in India, the Gandhian economy of permanence. All of 0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:35.279 these projects are more explore alternatives to quote and quote development, 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:40.640 alternats of trajectories to a good life UM that is 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:48.040 rooted in environmental justice, that is based in a retreat 0:37:48.840 --> 0:37:56.560 from the narrow confines of the global norths imagination UM 0:37:56.760 --> 0:38:00.520 and what that imagination has promoted worldwide and what's upon 0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:05.120 the rest of the world. The growth requires us to 0:38:07.200 --> 0:38:15.560 think for ourselves, to think creatively about how we plan 0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:24.279 on creating a good life in the context of capitalism's degradation, 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:28.480 the Earth's degradation due to climate change, and what that 0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:31.759 will mean for our future is we really need to 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:36.040 sit and think about what our future as a species, 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:41.319 what of our future as regions, our future as communities, 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:47.359 of future as individuals is going to look like, what trajectory, 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:52.160 what path we want to take, and how we begin 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:58.120 that journey. And so in the second part of this 0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:04.200 two part series, I intend to discuss what concepts are 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:08.239 essential for the growth, the steps we can take to 0:39:08.440 --> 0:39:12.759 move towards the growth, and how we can integrate the 0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:16.800 growth in anarchist politics. All right, and that's going to 0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:19.640 be the end of part one. Come back tomorrow for 0:39:19.880 --> 0:39:23.439 part two and uh, probably more discussion of that weird 0:39:23.560 --> 0:39:26.840 surgery rich people get to have their legs broken repeatedly 0:39:27.000 --> 0:39:45.080 until they're taller. Hello, and welcome back to it could 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:50.560 happen here, um a show where things happen people talk 0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:56.080 about it, Yes, in this present location. That's correct. Last 0:39:56.120 --> 0:40:00.719 episode we spoke about the concept of the growth and 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:05.279 what it means to de grow, how the growth as 0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:11.320 a movement came about, what inspired the critique that the 0:40:11.480 --> 0:40:17.120 growth pushes, and what the growth means for those of 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:21.200 us who live in the Global South, how we can 0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:26.040 go about imagining um new and different paths to a 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:32.360 better life within ecological limits. This episode will continue in 0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:37.880 that conversation talking about what is essential for the growth. 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:45.120 As I discussed in the previous episode, the growth is 0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:49.359 about striving for self determined life and dignity for all. 0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:53.480 It means an economy in a society that can sustain 0:40:53.600 --> 0:40:57.040 the natural basis of life. It means reduction of production 0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:00.640 consumption the globe on the north and the liberation the 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:04.400 one sided Western paradigm of development so that the Global 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:09.840 South can explore their own, our own, self determined paths 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:15.120 of social organization. The growth means an extension of democratic 0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:20.479 decision making to allow for real political participation. The growth 0:41:20.600 --> 0:41:28.000 means that social changes organized and oriented towards sufficiency and 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:33.600 self sufficiency and ecological sustainability, rather than the pursuits of 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:40.279 a line grew up a pursuit of economic growth, regardless 0:41:40.520 --> 0:41:44.560 of its impact on people, planet, and the growth of 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:49.799 course advocates for the creation of open, connected and localized economies, 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.560 there are several steps that need to be taken in 0:41:55.719 --> 0:42:05.280 order to achieve a d growth society, achieve a degrowth 0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:11.440 will to deeprou For one, I think that, as Jason 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:17.360 Hickel advocates in his book Less is More, we absolutely 0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:19.440 need to put an end to the practice of planned 0:42:19.480 --> 0:42:24.160 obso lessons, whether it be in household appliances and tools 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:28.799 and furniture and computers. We need to shift away from 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.800 this idea of products being produced to break down in 0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:40.480 a certain timeline and require replacement. UM. I personally have 0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:45.799 witnessed a lot of older technologies that continue to last 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:49.440 to this day before because they were invented before this 0:42:49.560 --> 0:42:52.879 whole practice the plant obs lessons really came about. Yeah, 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.480 but my family, we have a microwave that is like 0:42:55.920 --> 0:43:02.239 a decade older than I am, and it still works fine. Wow. Yeah, 0:43:02.360 --> 0:43:04.840 And I mean in my own lifetime, I've had to 0:43:05.080 --> 0:43:09.840 purchase multiple microwaves, so it's it's ridiculous. Yeah, That's always 0:43:09.840 --> 0:43:12.040 one of the things that I always thought like there 0:43:12.160 --> 0:43:15.960 was a real sort of like this is how you 0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:18.440 this is how you appeal to conservative people with this 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:21.279 is just like hey, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:24.360 bring back like nineteen sixties microwaves where everything is a 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:29.640 dial and it doesn't break every Yeah, because I think, yeah, 0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:32.440 I think what's what's missing in the conversation about t 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:36.640 growth is a lot of people like me, they assume, 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:39.840 because they react to negative that everybody else will, you know, 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:44.560 they kind of project their own reaction to others. But 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:51.320 I think political spectrum aside um or political chart or 0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:55.799 how are you gonna um map out the unmappable UM. 0:43:57.080 --> 0:44:01.279 I think that people generally, as I was discussing the 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:08.239 previous episode, want a good life, and that requires qualitative 0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:11.879 changes far more than it requires quantitative changes. Of course, 0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:15.000 there are places where quantitative changes are needed to make 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:22.760 some things accessible to that population. UM. But we already 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:25.840 over produce a lot of different things UM, And a 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:29.479 lot of overproduction is completely necessary because it is based 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:32.680 and planned obs lessons in order to increase profits, and 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:35.680 so that needs to Once that is discarded, I think 0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:40.440 people have will will best be able to access that 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.239 quality of life because we look at a lot of 0:44:43.320 --> 0:44:49.040 the sudden expenses that people have to deal with. You know, 0:44:49.120 --> 0:44:52.600 you've fridge suddenly breaking down, your stove suddenly breaking down 0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:56.800 in my careave for your toolster certainly breaking now and 0:44:57.120 --> 0:44:59.680 or you're washing machine. Um. I think in this year, 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:02.520 the and had to fix the washing machine three or 0:45:02.600 --> 0:45:09.040 four times because it's just constantly breaks down. And when 0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:13.160 instead we can save that those resources see at that time, 0:45:13.239 --> 0:45:18.360 see that energy, see that money. Um, just produce certain 0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:22.080 quality food the foods time, you know, put an end 0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:27.600 to those deliberate manufacturing decisions and developing long lasting modular 0:45:27.719 --> 0:45:32.680 products that can reduce our you know, material and energy 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:35.880 use worldwide. I think in a lot of cases, we 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:40.640 don't necessarily need more innovation, you know. I don't think 0:45:40.680 --> 0:45:44.120 we really need like a smart fridge. I think we 0:45:44.280 --> 0:45:50.200 just need a fridge that works for decades without breaking 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:53.520 down constantly. Yeah, And like like so much of the 0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:57.799 stuff that's sort of like nominally is informatus, like it's 0:45:57.800 --> 0:46:00.759 supposed to be. Innovation is just how how how can 0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:02.400 we make this product in such a way that we 0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:06.360 can sell consumer data about you from it? Like we 0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:10.200 don't need to do that. We can simply not. We 0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:14.560 can simply not. We can simply not exactly exactly. And 0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:17.480 speaking of things that we can simply not, we can 0:46:17.560 --> 0:46:27.280 simply not assault our senses constantly with advertisis. And because 0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:31.360 advertising just continues to see this purpose of generating social divisions, 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:35.400 highlighting class divisions, and manipulating people into consuming stuff they 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:41.960 don't need. As a card carrying member of Generations Z, 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:48.920 I have not I do not typically watch much TV UM. 0:46:49.000 --> 0:46:54.000 I used to watch TV because I'm the older gen 0:46:54.080 --> 0:46:59.920 Z conting gent, but with the rise of streaming services 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:04.440 is UM, which I do not use. Yoho hoo. Is 0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:07.880 I have to say about that? UM. I have not 0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:13.719 watched much TV UM. But there's certain reality shoes that 0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:19.839 I enjoy, like the Amazing Race UM, and so those 0:47:19.880 --> 0:47:22.520 sense we be showing on TV. I like Jeopardy. I 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:33.640 like to watch Jeopardy and the constant deeply unfunny, irritating, annoying, loud, 0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:43.399 flashy barrage of commercials quite aggravating. UM. Honestly, the goal 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:45.440 in age of crucial is being funny. Was a long 0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:50.719 time ago and now it's just suits. One of the 0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:56.400 things that I mentioned that in UM in the episode 0:47:56.400 --> 0:47:58.560 that we had done on the Commons. One of the 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:00.879 things that I one of the positions are held even 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:03.000 before I was an anarchist, was my opposition to the 0:48:03.080 --> 0:48:08.280 advertising industry to advertise it. I can't stand advertising everywhere 0:48:08.320 --> 0:48:10.719 you walk, everybody, screw everything you watch and listen to, 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:13.239 it's also going to sell you something. Um. I would 0:48:13.280 --> 0:48:15.080 love to be able to go outside and not see 0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:17.200 ads all the time. I would love to use a 0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:20.239 screwth of the incident without seeing ads all the time. Um. 0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:26.040 And so getting really advertising industry getting rid of while 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:29.680 these ads are just pushing us to consume more and more, 0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:36.840 um and oftentimes just promoting a lot of really harmful 0:48:36.960 --> 0:48:42.920 societal ideas you know, um, body images, use and alcoholism 0:48:43.160 --> 0:48:48.000 and a lot of our worst practices and a lot 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:50.600 of really terrible things of being promoted through ads. And 0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:57.000 so yeah, tear it down and watch consumerism perish. When 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.120 you think about really history the advertising industry and how 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:04.319 it came about as a mass communication student, um, that's 0:49:04.360 --> 0:49:09.000 something that I would spend some time looking into. Advertising 0:49:09.040 --> 0:49:13.160 really came about in response to you know, this need 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:16.839 that people had, really that that that that companies had 0:49:17.120 --> 0:49:21.080 to get people to consume. Because in a lot of cases, 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:25.120 you know, people would buy something and a newer model 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:27.719 would come out and it would really pay attention to 0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:30.560 it because I already have the thing. I don't need 0:49:30.600 --> 0:49:34.000 to get another thing. Um. But you know, you can't 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:38.360 run a profitable business that free. So they basically used 0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:42.680 advertising to push people to consume more, and so we 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:45.960 need to get rid of the advertising industry. Another step 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:48.000 we can take towards the growth is to shift from 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:52.719 ownership to use. The fruct um usufruct is something that 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:58.200 Marie book Chin, social ecologist, talks a lot about um 0:49:58.440 --> 0:50:02.239 in his book The Ecology of Freed Them and it's 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:07.120 essentially the freedom of individuals or groups in a community 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:11.719 to access and use, but not destroy, common resources to 0:50:11.800 --> 0:50:16.080 supply their needs. The term use of fruct comes from 0:50:16.840 --> 0:50:20.680 Roman property law, I believe, which should include use us 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.960 the right to use. Sorry, unfortunately I did not take 0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:31.520 ladin yeah practice. It's just the right to enjoy the 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:35.960 fruit of one's property and abuse us which is the 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:40.080 right to destroy one's property. So use us fruct us 0:50:40.120 --> 0:50:43.440 and abuse us um. And so use of fractice really 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.560 the combination of the first two principles. Right to access 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:51.040 and use and enjoy the fruit of um commonly held 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:55.200 property without you the right to destroy it um, so 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:58.279 that everyone can supply their needs. So instead of and 0:50:58.440 --> 0:51:01.640 I mean two libraries already a concept that it exists 0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:04.200 around the world, rather than a hundred people in a 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:08.880 community each individually order an electric drill, UM, one person 0:51:09.320 --> 0:51:14.480 or rather one library can host or three or four 0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:17.879 electric drills and effectively serve everyone's need for a drill 0:51:17.920 --> 0:51:21.759 when they need it, because unless you're a carpenter or 0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:25.680 really into arts and crafts, you probably don't need an 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:30.319 electric drill all the time. Another thing that we're really 0:51:30.719 --> 0:51:32.840 helping or push towards the growth will be getting rid 0:51:32.880 --> 0:51:36.920 of car dependency, because the consumption of vehicles, the mainstenence 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:40.799 of vehicles, the maintenance of the infrastructure of vehicles, use 0:51:41.280 --> 0:51:44.360 all of those things requires a lot of resources, you know, 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:48.759 concrete and oil and gas and metals and great Earth minerals. 0:51:48.880 --> 0:51:52.920 And rather than forcing everyone to produce these things we 0:51:52.960 --> 0:51:58.040 could consume those things, we can instead shift towards walkable 0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:02.200 model for urban months UM so that people who do 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:06.560 need to use vehicles in rural settings, for example, can 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:10.919 use them, and you can use them without causing unnecessarily 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:16.759 unnecessary harm contributing to unnecessary harm superfluous harm on the planet. UM. 0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:20.200 Getting rid of cor dependency would also mean that fewer 0:52:20.239 --> 0:52:25.200 people would need vehicles, and vehicles that the few vehicles 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:29.720 that we do produce UM can be shared in common 0:52:30.280 --> 0:52:33.400 to save needs that cannot be filled by like bikes 0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:39.160 or you know, public transportation systems. Another element of deep 0:52:39.160 --> 0:52:42.360 growth would really be the reduction of our energy material 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:48.400 use through the transformation of our agriculture systems. It is 0:52:48.480 --> 0:52:51.240 true that we currently produce enough food for I believe 0:52:51.360 --> 0:52:55.239 ten billion people. A lot of that food is wasted. UM. 0:52:55.400 --> 0:52:57.920 A lot of food doesn't reach people. UM. It's really 0:52:57.920 --> 0:53:03.160 an issue of alcation and not necessary production. But at 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:09.759 the same time that production is extremely harmful. UM. It 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:15.200 relies on a lot of damaging chemicals, relies on the 0:53:15.280 --> 0:53:20.600 stripping of our top soils, relies on the overuse of antibiotics, 0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:27.759 relies on the abuse of animals. UM. The way that 0:53:27.800 --> 0:53:32.520 we currently feed the world is deeply unequal, extremely inefficient, 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:37.240 environmentally degrading, and energy wasting. We cannot continue to treat 0:53:37.320 --> 0:53:40.960 our farms like factories. We need to find we used 0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:48.160 to feed ourselves densely and compatibly within the amounts the 0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:52.719 living world. Scaling down to localized proma culture can help 0:53:53.880 --> 0:54:01.080 change of based agricultural systems. Community supported agriculture, urban god aquaponics, 0:54:01.800 --> 0:54:09.040 cultured meats, aquacultures, and exploring other more traditional forms of 0:54:10.239 --> 0:54:16.160 food raising will need to be the route that we take. Already, 0:54:16.280 --> 0:54:20.480 we are killing our soils, we are running out to 0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:25.480 the fossil fuels that UM, the agricultural industry relies on. 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:31.200 And if we continue along the trajectory, we have a 0:54:31.280 --> 0:54:35.759 big storm coming. Yeah, probably the greatest famine the plant 0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:37.759 has ever seen on its way. If we do not 0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:45.680 aim to build food autonomy, aim to rewild our ecologies, 0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:50.080 aimed to reconfigure our consumption patterns or food production and 0:54:50.160 --> 0:54:57.560 consumption patterns two see quester more carbon to allocate two 0:54:57.600 --> 0:55:03.680 more people to use healthier foods UM and to really 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:07.799 to recover the earth. Another important stuff we can take 0:55:07.840 --> 0:55:11.120 in the growth would be to get rid of what 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:16.920 scale down to, especially destructive industries. There is, of course agriculture. 0:55:17.760 --> 0:55:23.840 There is UM, the fossil fuels industry, the arms industry, 0:55:24.360 --> 0:55:28.600 private jet industry, the automobile industry, the airline industries. All 0:55:28.640 --> 0:55:31.360 of these industries must either be slimmed down or gotten 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:35.839 rid of UM because, as the pandemic has showing, very 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:40.160 few of the jobs that are currently undertaken around the 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:46.880 world are truly essential to maintain in the bare bones 0:55:47.320 --> 0:55:51.160 of life. And of course we do need to reconfigure 0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:53.239 the way that we live or ways of life. You 0:55:53.280 --> 0:55:57.920 don't have to reflect ecological limits. But even with that reconfiguration, 0:55:58.120 --> 0:56:02.440 I think we know why industries needed and what on. Um. 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.520 I always find it strange, This is, I guess a tangent. 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:12.680 I always find it strange that politicians are celebrated for 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:22.440 bracken about creating new jobs when in reality, I believe 0:56:22.640 --> 0:56:25.719 and really the vision was in the twentieth century that 0:56:25.800 --> 0:56:28.319 we would reach a point where fewer and fewer people 0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:30.239 needed to work, and that we need to work for 0:56:30.360 --> 0:56:34.480 less time. Um. And so that really is part of 0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:38.120 the aim of the growth, reviving that pursuit, reviving that 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:40.480 goal because we have reached the point where we can 0:56:41.360 --> 0:56:44.520 um scale on the amount of time each Polson has 0:56:44.560 --> 0:56:47.879 to work, skill on amounts of jobs that aren't necessary. Um. 0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:51.640 If you've read Bullshit Jobs by David Greeable, you'll see 0:56:51.680 --> 0:57:00.359 that a lot of particularly service economy jobs ah practically worthless. Um. 0:57:00.400 --> 0:57:04.319 And I actually saw kind of funny video talking about 0:57:04.400 --> 0:57:09.200 how at this point office culture is more of a religion. 0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:13.239 Yeah that's so good. Yeah, so that going and going around. 0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:16.240 We can surrounds and Twitter. That was really funny. Um. 0:57:17.560 --> 0:57:19.919 But yeah, we just move around. A bunch of people 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:22.760 move around and round numbers. If you've seen, um, the 0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:30.480 show Succession, that Succession sufferance. Have you seen the shows Sufferance? UM, 0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:35.040 it's it's pretty much like an our slash anti work 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:42.240 type show. UM. And so I think one more people 0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:44.440 are coming to the realization that hey, this kind of 0:57:44.560 --> 0:57:47.160 sucks the fact that we have to work this much. 0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:49.840 So we need to reduce the amount of time we work, um, 0:57:49.920 --> 0:57:51.600 the type of work we need to change, type of 0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:54.760 work we do. So it's a quantitative and qualitative shift 0:57:55.040 --> 0:57:58.200 um and something I spoke about in my view on 0:57:58.480 --> 0:58:01.600 anti work or post work, whatever you want to call it. 0:58:03.880 --> 0:58:07.040 These changes, these steps to scale and total energy use, 0:58:07.120 --> 0:58:10.880 can be taken by a broad range of organizations, groups, 0:58:11.160 --> 0:58:15.920 mass movements, popular assemblies, unions, co operatives, not waiting for 0:58:16.000 --> 0:58:18.479 the state, but going beyond it. I think we've seen 0:58:18.800 --> 0:58:21.120 by now. I think if you have not seen right now, 0:58:21.200 --> 0:58:24.320 it needs open your eyes. The state is not doing 0:58:24.600 --> 0:58:27.000 enough or in some cases not doing anything at all, 0:58:27.640 --> 0:58:30.320 to respond to these crises, and we need to take 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:33.840 it into our own hands to do so. UM. I 0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:42.520 have a video in store UM for December that as 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:47.080 one of my patrons jokes might have the alphabet agencies 0:58:47.120 --> 0:58:52.240 after me. But there are a lot of different actions 0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:55.440 that we can take UM to integrate the growth, to 0:58:57.120 --> 0:59:00.920 move towards a decro society, to de grow our economies, 0:59:02.000 --> 0:59:07.520 a combination of acts of confrontation and non cooperation and 0:59:07.680 --> 0:59:14.800 prefiguration in some de growth challenges the dominant growth imperative. 0:59:15.600 --> 0:59:19.960 It's in the name. It is intentionally subversive in its 0:59:20.080 --> 0:59:24.440 title because it requires us to think about how we 0:59:24.600 --> 0:59:28.840 can collectively organize the restructure of all economy and the 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:34.160 downscale of energy and resource use worldwide. The transition back 0:59:34.200 --> 0:59:38.080 into balance with the living will in a safe, just, 0:59:39.400 --> 0:59:44.720 an equitable way. The growth means striving for a self titude, 0:59:44.800 --> 0:59:49.520 life and dignity and abundance for all. The growth of 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:52.320 mean liberating ourselves not just from the ways that the 0:59:52.400 --> 0:59:58.320 growth imperative has shaped out technologies education. The growth who 0:59:58.360 --> 1:00:00.880 require that we not just liberal it ourselves from the 1:00:00.920 --> 1:00:05.520 ways that the growth imperative has shaved our technologies and institutions, 1:00:06.840 --> 1:00:12.320 but it demands if we also reconsider education, our cultural norms, 1:00:12.360 --> 1:00:19.200 and values or identities or mindsets or relationships. It will 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:26.200 be a massive shift with anarchists called social revolution um, 1:00:27.320 --> 1:00:31.320 but it's one that is worthwhile. As some de growth 1:00:31.320 --> 1:00:39.480 advocates would see, it's de growth by choice or de 1:00:39.600 --> 1:00:43.600 growth by force. What's the use of de growth here? 1:00:43.600 --> 1:00:47.680 Has being used slightly differently, the growth by choice being 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:54.040 like I described, collectively organized, democratically managed restructure of the 1:00:54.080 --> 1:00:57.560 economy to bring into bounce that living will in a safe, 1:00:57.640 --> 1:01:01.680 just nequitable way um, whereas d growth by force is 1:01:01.760 --> 1:01:10.840 more soon combination of austaritsy and apocalypse. So up to you. Yeah, well, 1:01:10.920 --> 1:01:15.080 politics all politicive people. So there's there's a Japanese Marxist 1:01:15.160 --> 1:01:19.600 named koh Saito who's been writing like a bunch of 1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:25.240 stuff recently, who basically like he's been probably the biggest 1:01:25.320 --> 1:01:28.360 voice of the growth in Japan. And his book Capital 1:01:28.400 --> 1:01:31.880 on the Antipathyne is finally getting translated into English pretty soon, 1:01:32.720 --> 1:01:36.000 and so yeah, check that out when it comes out. 1:01:36.160 --> 1:01:40.480 His stuff is really good, and he like basically has 1:01:40.560 --> 1:01:45.520 revived both Marxism and d growth in Japan. After Marxism 1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:51.160 is kind of like implosion after a bunch of weird fairy. 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:52.439 Wait we we don't need to get into the story 1:01:52.440 --> 1:01:54.800 of the claps of the Japanese Left. But yeah, that 1:01:54.960 --> 1:01:58.880 that that's coming. I'll check that out. Yeah yeah, I'm 1:01:58.880 --> 1:02:01.040 looking forwards to that book when it comes out. Yeah, 1:02:01.240 --> 1:02:04.160 me too. If you want to check out my videos 1:02:04.440 --> 1:02:07.440 on this topic and others, just go to YouTube dot 1:02:07.480 --> 1:02:11.360 com slash ANDREIDSM. You can also follow me on Twitter 1:02:12.320 --> 1:02:16.960 um while Twitter still exists on discloss and Drew and 1:02:17.320 --> 1:02:20.960 you could potentially even support on patreonatre dot com slash 1:02:21.160 --> 1:02:44.200 sat true as it piece by could happen here. I 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:46.640 don't know why I did that voice. I'm Robert Evans, 1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:51.280 host of a podcast that has many other hosts who 1:02:51.520 --> 1:02:55.000 all are on the podcast right now. We have, in 1:02:55.200 --> 1:02:59.960 order of them being on my zoom screen, Chris Garres 1:03:00.080 --> 1:03:05.720 and Sharene and James. Hey, everybody, how's it going? Good? Great? 1:03:06.000 --> 1:03:08.640 And we brought the full crew in to talk about 1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:12.640 the worst ship. So yeah, a whole bunch of kind 1:03:12.680 --> 1:03:16.240 of kind of not great things have happened the past week. 1:03:17.720 --> 1:03:22.200 So we took we took last week mostly off from 1:03:22.280 --> 1:03:26.000 work due to a series of court cases, um and uh, 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:29.760 thanks to an injunction we're allowed to podcast again, so 1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:32.520 I figured it would be we had a couple of 1:03:33.400 --> 1:03:36.520 I mean, horrifying stories break in a row, UM that 1:03:36.720 --> 1:03:39.440 we as the people we are, kind of had specific 1:03:39.520 --> 1:03:41.960 bits of insight on that I think might help uh 1:03:42.280 --> 1:03:46.880 catch our listeners up to some maybe underappreciated aspects of 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:48.600 some of the big stories of the last week. So 1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:51.760 we wanted to start with the mass shooting in Colorado 1:03:51.920 --> 1:03:56.680 Springs UM specifically talking about the family of the still 1:03:56.760 --> 1:04:02.160 alleged but you know, definitely did it shooter, James, you 1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:04.240 want to kick us off there. Yeah, I wanted to 1:04:04.320 --> 1:04:07.400 start out with this UM so that the alleged shooter, 1:04:08.160 --> 1:04:11.840 it is called Anderson Lee old Rich, right, but comes 1:04:11.920 --> 1:04:16.360 from an LDS Last Today saint family in San Diego, 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:21.360 And like I think everyone has probably seen this very 1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:24.640 viral thirty second clip of his father that went around 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:27.760 Twitter and butt be to day after the shooting, and 1:04:28.120 --> 1:04:30.480 his dad, just so we're super clear on this, says 1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:32.440 some disgusting things and there's a piece of ship for 1:04:32.520 --> 1:04:35.520 saying them. I don't want to excuse any of the ship, 1:04:35.600 --> 1:04:39.240 he said. I also don't want to excuse the way 1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:42.040 that that was cut because I think it was pretty 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:44.480 pretty shitty, Like there are people we should be really 1:04:44.560 --> 1:04:46.800 fucking angry at, and his father is one of them. 1:04:47.480 --> 1:04:51.760 But his father didn't excuse the shooting. And if you 1:04:51.800 --> 1:04:53.600 look at that eight minute interview, he says that, like 1:04:53.680 --> 1:04:56.040 what happened was wrong, etcetera, etcetera. And there are people 1:04:56.080 --> 1:04:59.040 who have excused the shooting, right, Like I think Chris 1:04:59.160 --> 1:05:01.880 is going to speak to something Temple Tucker Carlson, people 1:05:01.920 --> 1:05:05.440 who created a climate where this happened and have asked 1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:08.360 for it to happen again and are asking continually for 1:05:08.400 --> 1:05:11.200 it to happen again. His dad didn't do that again, 1:05:11.320 --> 1:05:14.320 his dad, His dad doesn't seem to have been a 1:05:14.360 --> 1:05:17.240 great dad, right. His dad was was like using when 1:05:17.320 --> 1:05:19.320 he was a kid. His dad was abusive. What is 1:05:19.400 --> 1:05:22.280 his violence? I think we all know lots of people 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:24.320 who were raised in those climates who didn't go on 1:05:24.520 --> 1:05:26.720 to shoot up a nightclub. And it just kind of 1:05:28.000 --> 1:05:30.360 I saw something. I don't know. I was upset by 1:05:30.640 --> 1:05:33.440 the response to that in a sense because like I 1:05:33.520 --> 1:05:37.400 know so many people who come from from families and 1:05:37.560 --> 1:05:39.760 homes like that, and I like being like, oh, he 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:42.000 was doomed to be this way because of how his 1:05:42.120 --> 1:05:45.600 dad was just like isn't I don't know. It just 1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:47.560 upset me. It's not the response we need, you know, 1:05:47.720 --> 1:05:51.200 Like I think we should hold like hold what his 1:05:51.320 --> 1:05:52.920 dad said, like hold his dad to account of what 1:05:53.000 --> 1:05:56.880 he said, but also not like allow that to explain. Yes, 1:05:58.520 --> 1:06:00.960 I have a couple I like, I have confused feelings 1:06:01.000 --> 1:06:02.840 on it because his dad does go into a long 1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:05.439 thing where he says, you know, you shouldn't there's nothing 1:06:05.520 --> 1:06:08.200 that justifies violence. You know, these people's lives were precious, 1:06:08.280 --> 1:06:10.040 All lives are precious. But he also was like I 1:06:10.080 --> 1:06:14.040 taught him that violence was a great way to solve problems, 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:18.000 um and you know, expresses that he was glad to 1:06:18.120 --> 1:06:21.919 learn that his son wasn't gay, And I don't, Yeah, 1:06:22.240 --> 1:06:25.280 I don't know. I don't Yeah, I don't know how 1:06:25.360 --> 1:06:28.120 much I want to like interpret that as he really 1:06:29.120 --> 1:06:31.920 meant what he said about nothing justifying this in those 1:06:31.960 --> 1:06:34.600 people's lives being precious, because that is kind of this 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:36.960 thing that like you get on the and this guy 1:06:37.080 --> 1:06:39.120 is obviously not a thought leader on the Christian right, 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:42.240 not like he's not like a luminary. I don't think 1:06:42.280 --> 1:06:45.000 he contributed outside of you know, the things he may 1:06:45.040 --> 1:06:48.160 have raised his son to believe to the broader national 1:06:48.320 --> 1:06:51.560 climate of of hate right now, there's just a study 1:06:51.640 --> 1:06:54.960 that was released today that UM from the Armed Conflict 1:06:55.040 --> 1:06:59.120 Location and Event Data Project Data confirms that anti LGBT 1:06:59.480 --> 1:07:01.760 mobilization is now the leading driver or a fire right 1:07:01.800 --> 1:07:04.720 protest activity in the US. Obviously, this guy didn't make 1:07:04.840 --> 1:07:09.280 that happen, UM, but I noticed a similarity between like 1:07:09.440 --> 1:07:13.040 the I there's nothing worse than my kid being gay, 1:07:13.320 --> 1:07:16.200 but also when a bad thing gets done by a 1:07:16.360 --> 1:07:19.360 Christian to gay people, well, their lives are still precious. 1:07:19.440 --> 1:07:22.840 We just like hate what they how they live them. Um, 1:07:23.000 --> 1:07:24.520 I don't know, I don't know how where to where 1:07:24.560 --> 1:07:26.400 to go further with that, but you're right that like 1:07:26.600 --> 1:07:29.960 that the thirty second clip is very dishonestly edited in 1:07:30.160 --> 1:07:33.760 order to like, UM cut out a lot of what 1:07:33.880 --> 1:07:35.600 this guy was saying, which I have a problem with 1:07:35.680 --> 1:07:38.160 regardless of who you're doing it too. Yeah, it's just 1:07:38.360 --> 1:07:41.439 it's bad journalism, And like I would rather we point 1:07:41.480 --> 1:07:43.080 out rage at the people who are going to make 1:07:43.160 --> 1:07:46.880 this happen again unless we stop them. Yeah, like this guy, 1:07:47.080 --> 1:07:49.320 I'm this guy had the degree to which this guy 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:52.840 contributed to this massacre by being this dude's dad. Um, 1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:56.120 I don't think there's anyone else he's going to push 1:07:56.200 --> 1:07:59.480 into killing if if he indeed did that, whereas people 1:07:59.600 --> 1:08:03.120 like to pool are going to continue to do that. Yeah. 1:08:03.320 --> 1:08:07.360 And also I do want to say, like, like the 1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:10.080 Mormon Church does not get a pass for this. Yeah, 1:08:10.200 --> 1:08:15.200 like that No, absolutely believably homophobic, Like absolutely, he's a 1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:18.519 ship super racist, like yeah, and you know a lot 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:20.840 of people really haven't been talking about this, and they 1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:24.800 should because they fucking suck And yeah, this is this 1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:26.840 is a you know, like, yeah, it turns out when 1:08:26.880 --> 1:08:29.320 you have a bunch of people like giving sermons about 1:08:29.320 --> 1:08:32.840 fucking musket balls, like this is what happens. Yeah, you 1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:34.280 know they don't they don't get off the hook for 1:08:34.320 --> 1:08:37.880 this either. No, And they're like domination of politics in 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:40.960 some areas, it really needs to be seriously looked at, 1:08:41.760 --> 1:08:43.880 talking of like domination of politics. I do want to 1:08:43.920 --> 1:08:47.200 talk about his grandfather a little bit, yep, because his 1:08:47.360 --> 1:08:52.479 grandfather is bonkers. So his grandfather is called Randy vocal 1:08:52.840 --> 1:08:56.000 Uh might be pronounced verpal um, but he's he was 1:08:56.120 --> 1:08:59.320 mayor of Santi. So Santi is a town east of 1:08:59.360 --> 1:09:02.360 San Diego. It's not not very far. He's I think 1:09:02.400 --> 1:09:06.439 Sharenia probably familiar with Santia, right, Yeah, Santi is a 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:10.439 place that's that's about ye about it. People sometimes called 1:09:10.479 --> 1:09:15.080 it clanned. He definitely like Metzka was there for a while, right. 1:09:15.240 --> 1:09:19.320 And when Vopal was mayor in two thousand and one, 1:09:19.439 --> 1:09:23.360 there was a school shooting in Santi about which he spoke. 1:09:23.400 --> 1:09:25.240 He hasn't spoken about this one yet at all. He's 1:09:25.520 --> 1:09:31.439 he's yeah, strange, that strange. He's pretty much gone, which 1:09:31.520 --> 1:09:34.479 is not like it when this guy speaks, he uh, 1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:38.719 he rarely helps himself when when he speaks to media 1:09:38.720 --> 1:09:41.920 who don't agree with every position he's on. So I 1:09:42.040 --> 1:09:44.320 want like, I want to ground like he became mayor 1:09:44.360 --> 1:09:47.920 of Santi in two thousand. In nine, a black marine 1:09:48.960 --> 1:09:50.880 by the name of Carlos Colbert, who was a large 1:09:50.960 --> 1:09:53.479 corporate in the Marine Corps, was beaten and paralyzed by 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:56.200 five white men at Memorial Day party in Santy. Like 1:09:57.040 --> 1:10:01.840 and that doesn't represent the whole town, but was how 1:10:01.960 --> 1:10:05.040 people thought of that town. And in the early two thousands, right, 1:10:05.360 --> 1:10:07.280 the place it was always a place to avoid it, like, 1:10:07.320 --> 1:10:09.720 you don't really want to go there. I don't know. Yeah, 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:11.200 I have friends who still don't want to go to 1:10:11.240 --> 1:10:15.639 Santi like um. I have friends who are like delivery 1:10:15.720 --> 1:10:19.000 drivers who are like black people who have been told 1:10:19.080 --> 1:10:21.360 like they used to not saying black folks deliver into 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:24.160 Santi like. It definitely has whether or not that's the 1:10:24.320 --> 1:10:28.799 case now it's becoming more more diverse, I think, like ethnically, 1:10:28.920 --> 1:10:31.080 but it certainly has a reputation of being a place 1:10:31.200 --> 1:10:35.519 where it's not safe. And this is a place that 1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:39.559 elects him as mayor in two thousand right too, thousand one, 1:10:39.600 --> 1:10:43.200 they have a high school shooting, and he just kind 1:10:43.240 --> 1:10:47.799 of continues to spout some absolutely crazy stuff. It's probably 1:10:47.840 --> 1:10:52.439 worth noting that he's not as like, far from the 1:10:52.880 --> 1:10:55.960 like the norm of the GOP, which is still a 1:10:56.080 --> 1:10:59.519 long way from like good when it comes to like 1:10:59.720 --> 1:11:01.800 l g BTQ stuff, as he is for other things 1:11:02.840 --> 1:11:05.800 like his His probably his most famous crazy position is 1:11:05.880 --> 1:11:09.439 that climate change is good because most of our enemies 1:11:09.479 --> 1:11:11.599 live in I'm quoting now, most of our enemies live 1:11:11.640 --> 1:11:14.519 in hot climates, desert climates. It will probably have a 1:11:14.560 --> 1:11:18.000 negative effect on their environment. Most of the Muslim nations 1:11:18.040 --> 1:11:23.439 are in hot areas of the world. Honestly, Yeah, just 1:11:23.760 --> 1:11:28.960 absolutely incredible. Did we did we find the world's first 1:11:29.040 --> 1:11:34.800 pro eco fascist? Yea fascist. I have met a few 1:11:35.000 --> 1:11:37.760 anti there's people who are pro climate change because it will. 1:11:40.040 --> 1:11:42.720 But this is this is like a whole other level. Well, 1:11:42.760 --> 1:11:46.840 there's dry us out weird. Do you want to know 1:11:47.040 --> 1:11:51.519 why he thinks this climate change happens? Good God. I 1:11:51.640 --> 1:11:54.040 believe about one percent of climate change is impacted by 1:11:54.160 --> 1:12:00.360 human beings. The rest of that should not rest in rest, buddy. 1:12:00.760 --> 1:12:04.599 It's solar cycles, quote, the natural wobbling of the earth 1:12:04.720 --> 1:12:11.760 and volcanic activities. Ah, this is this is the classic. Yeah, yeah, 1:12:11.800 --> 1:12:15.000 there's there's a couple of good ones. I I personally 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:18.519 partial to. We didn't have enough CEO two and climate 1:12:18.600 --> 1:12:20.600 change is the only thing that's going to save us 1:12:20.640 --> 1:12:26.519 from the CEO to shortage that. Yeah. Notable Other vocal 1:12:26.560 --> 1:12:29.960 bangers include I'm getting attacked out here by the Vietcong 1:12:30.320 --> 1:12:37.040 stealing my copper, and I don't like it that. It 1:12:37.120 --> 1:12:39.600 would be super funny if it turned out that the 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:43.320 Vietcong had sent like a deep cover special spec opsy 1:12:43.360 --> 1:12:46.320 in it to California just to funk with this guy's copper, 1:12:47.080 --> 1:12:56.760 to pull copper just uh good, Um, it's just it's 1:12:56.800 --> 1:13:00.519 just a yeah, just a powerful example of happened? Did 1:13:00.560 --> 1:13:05.680 you lick lead paint? Like? Just an incredible boomer. So 1:13:05.880 --> 1:13:08.479 he was voted out in by a considerable match I 1:13:08.520 --> 1:13:14.599 think got about thank god, sorry this this so he's 1:13:14.600 --> 1:13:20.000 serving out. He just got voted out. Yeah, twenty years. 1:13:22.600 --> 1:13:27.000 How many he moved in? I think sixteen he moved 1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:33.160 into the California Assembly, so representing like this this yeah, yeah, 1:13:33.280 --> 1:13:39.720 statewide office. This is there on the left coast California. 1:13:40.280 --> 1:13:42.800 It is It means one thing to people who have 1:13:42.960 --> 1:13:44.920 never been to the West coast, but have you been 1:13:44.960 --> 1:13:47.880 to the west coast? The conservative parts of California like 1:13:48.360 --> 1:13:51.439 the Republican Party. They're massive, and the Republican Party has 1:13:51.520 --> 1:13:55.160 absolutely locked in control. It is very difficult to remove 1:13:55.240 --> 1:13:59.120 to move them in places like there's there's more Republican 1:13:59.240 --> 1:14:04.320 voters in California the most states most Yes. Yeah, if 1:14:04.360 --> 1:14:08.040 you wanted a slice of of like eastern California, just 1:14:08.160 --> 1:14:11.080 check out a Riverside County shore with jad Bianco's Instagram, 1:14:11.960 --> 1:14:14.200 where he mostly just rides around on a horse and 1:14:14.479 --> 1:14:18.840 criticizes COVID restrictions. But yeah, this is. Yeah, it's really 1:14:18.880 --> 1:14:23.960 something incredible poster. But this is I think an insight 1:14:24.120 --> 1:14:26.479 into like this side of California that people. It doesn't 1:14:26.479 --> 1:14:28.120 mean that everyone who lives in this county, of course 1:14:28.240 --> 1:14:30.120 is bigoted or racist, and there are lots of very 1:14:30.240 --> 1:14:32.360 nice kind people in his county. I know there are 1:14:32.400 --> 1:14:37.400 some anarchist communites out there, but um yeah, this vocal 1:14:37.439 --> 1:14:39.439 claims he hasn't spoken to his grandson for years. But 1:14:40.640 --> 1:14:43.240 this guy has been spouting this ship for twenty years, 1:14:43.360 --> 1:14:45.639 right like he became mayor of Santi in two thousand. 1:14:45.760 --> 1:14:48.800 That was when this shooter, old Rich was born. So 1:14:49.000 --> 1:14:52.479 like for his entire life, Vocal has been saying stuff 1:14:52.520 --> 1:14:56.040 like the conga stealing my copper. I mean it is 1:14:56.240 --> 1:14:59.680 it is true that this this person did grow up 1:14:59.720 --> 1:15:05.240 surroun ounded by a constant bubble of of homophobic rhetoric, 1:15:06.080 --> 1:15:10.600 dehumanizing rhetoric, and that that does shape the person that 1:15:10.720 --> 1:15:12.760 you are. Obviously that doesn't it doesn't mean you're going 1:15:12.800 --> 1:15:14.200 to go do the best shooting. There's lots of people 1:15:14.240 --> 1:15:15.840 who grow up in those environments who turn out to 1:15:15.880 --> 1:15:19.960 be very wonderful people. Um but but but yeah, that 1:15:20.160 --> 1:15:24.400 is definitely like the environment that you are raised in 1:15:24.479 --> 1:15:28.240 and around obviously doesn't obviously affects who you're gonna be. 1:15:28.800 --> 1:15:33.000 And yeah this the shooters posting like burning a Pride 1:15:33.040 --> 1:15:37.040 flag on on his very limited social media presence, right, 1:15:37.520 --> 1:15:40.080 and every time his granted had the chance, he's voted 1:15:40.080 --> 1:15:44.639 against rights. Yeah, he was raised in an environment where 1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:49.080 hatred of LGBTQ people was not just like present, but 1:15:49.280 --> 1:15:53.200 was used as the justification regularly for like legislative action. 1:15:53.320 --> 1:15:56.400 And he was also raised in an environment where all 1:15:56.479 --> 1:15:58.680 of them in around him would have praised violence in 1:15:58.760 --> 1:16:01.599 different ways, And the fact that he wound up doing 1:16:01.720 --> 1:16:06.960 violence against the queer community is not like surprising. Yeah. Yeah, 1:16:07.360 --> 1:16:09.840 wasn't his dad also like an m M A fighter, Yes, 1:16:10.320 --> 1:16:14.479 UFC UFC whatever some yes, some sort of combat sport. 1:16:15.200 --> 1:16:17.360 He's also in a bunch of playing movies, a lot 1:16:17.439 --> 1:16:19.519 of poor movies, because I think a lot of things 1:16:19.600 --> 1:16:23.080 were normalized that we're just like, maybe not for other people. Yeah, 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:25.600 that is a man who has no barrier between the 1:16:25.680 --> 1:16:27.840 two sides of his nose due to a lifetime of 1:16:27.960 --> 1:16:31.800 snorting every single uh chemical he can possibly get his 1:16:31.880 --> 1:16:37.240 hands on. Um, not that there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, 1:16:37.760 --> 1:16:40.920 his dad doesn't seem to be like entirely lucid into you. 1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:44.519 Um well, And the other aspect of this is that 1:16:44.680 --> 1:16:48.599 the shooter in Colorado was like a known figure as well. 1:16:48.760 --> 1:16:53.120 He wasn't He wasn't a nobody like people had. He 1:16:53.200 --> 1:16:57.000 did like a bomb threat last year, there was off 1:16:57.080 --> 1:17:00.120 with the police where he was in armor threatening to 1:17:00.280 --> 1:17:03.240 go out shooting. Yeah, that's I was really I'm really 1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:06.639 hoping the conversation shifts more towards him as a person, 1:17:06.880 --> 1:17:10.280 because I can only blame the family so much, you know. 1:17:10.520 --> 1:17:13.960 I He's done some terrible things, and I think that's 1:17:14.000 --> 1:17:16.960 getting glossed over by the fact that he has people 1:17:17.000 --> 1:17:19.120 in his family that are questionable. And I think the 1:17:19.280 --> 1:17:22.040 number one thing we should be pointing out, because I 1:17:22.120 --> 1:17:25.000 also don't believe we should be focusing entirely on his 1:17:25.120 --> 1:17:27.920 specific actions. We should be focusing on the fact that 1:17:28.000 --> 1:17:30.760 it would have been incredibly easy to stop this guy. 1:17:30.960 --> 1:17:34.880 He was the most obvious candidate for a mass shooting imaginable, 1:17:35.520 --> 1:17:38.320 um and nothing was done to stop this. Like that's that. 1:17:38.600 --> 1:17:43.080 The answer is that like whiteness is very helpful when 1:17:43.120 --> 1:17:48.080 it comes to hate. But yeah, and with crime and 1:17:48.160 --> 1:17:50.400 all of the time I've been following mass shooters, I 1:17:50.520 --> 1:17:54.040 can't think of one that more directly talked about wanting 1:17:54.080 --> 1:17:55.680 to do a mass shooting in a way that was 1:17:55.840 --> 1:17:58.320 immediately obvious to all of the law enforcement in his 1:17:58.479 --> 1:18:01.040 area and had already forced to response from them. There 1:18:01.120 --> 1:18:04.439 was absolutely And again for talking about his gun control 1:18:04.439 --> 1:18:07.320 always comes up in this. Colorado has red flag laws, 1:18:08.280 --> 1:18:11.040 like Colorado has the restrictions people say should be but 1:18:11.120 --> 1:18:13.479 the problem is that none of them were actually used 1:18:13.520 --> 1:18:18.120 against him, um anyway, And I think comes back to 1:18:18.200 --> 1:18:22.400 like again, the problem, like one of the largest problems 1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:25.439 again with gun regulation is that you you're relying on 1:18:25.520 --> 1:18:29.560 the police to enforce and the cops believe of the 1:18:29.640 --> 1:18:33.679 same ship that this guy does. So you know, yeah, 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:36.680 they again letting these people come to pride like this, 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:39.200 this is gonna great, go great for you. They just 1:18:39.320 --> 1:18:41.599 assumed he was an excitable boy and it was gonna 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:43.639 be you know, he just needed to get it out 1:18:43.680 --> 1:18:45.680 of the system. That time he had a standoff with 1:18:45.760 --> 1:18:47.960 the police over a bomb threat where he talked to 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:50.120 his mom about wanting to go out as a mass shooter. 1:18:50.800 --> 1:18:59.519 Like most yeah, yeah, should we should we take a break? Yeah, 1:18:59.680 --> 1:19:04.400 we should do you know what else? Nope, any, nope, 1:19:04.920 --> 1:19:09.479 it's just to break. Yeah, do some insulin. We're back. 1:19:10.000 --> 1:19:14.320 I hope everyone took insulin um everybody. It'll I don't 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:20.280 know what it'll do. Look very hungry to sleepy and 1:19:20.479 --> 1:19:23.920 hungry pilled look James. As a podcaster, it's my job 1:19:24.000 --> 1:19:26.120 to tell people to take medicine, not to have any 1:19:26.160 --> 1:19:29.000 responsibility for what happens when they do. Well, I'm just 1:19:29.080 --> 1:19:31.800 gonna go fly up to Canada and get some free 1:19:31.800 --> 1:19:37.840 insulin and then come back smuggle it down that actually yeah, yeah, 1:19:38.000 --> 1:19:41.200 maybe consider just have them fill up your car. What 1:19:41.320 --> 1:19:43.320 are we talking about next? So I want to I 1:19:43.360 --> 1:19:45.840 want to talk a bit about the reaction to this 1:19:45.960 --> 1:19:50.760 on the right, because this is something okay, so like 1:19:51.040 --> 1:19:54.519 the far right's reaction to mass shootings has never been good, 1:19:54.920 --> 1:19:59.120 Like it's usually been like, oh, this is this is 1:19:59.160 --> 1:20:03.400 still unfortunate that it had mental illness. This is like 1:20:03.479 --> 1:20:07.280 the pills something like they are just pretty Here's the thing. 1:20:07.439 --> 1:20:09.880 When I originally did this, right, I had a Timpool 1:20:09.960 --> 1:20:12.360 tweet that I had pulled, and then he made like 1:20:12.520 --> 1:20:14.920 every successive time we're about to record this episode, he 1:20:15.000 --> 1:20:18.600 had he makes another even worst so here here is 1:20:18.680 --> 1:20:21.479 here is the most recently. First, I do want to 1:20:21.800 --> 1:20:23.560 we have to. One of the things I want to 1:20:23.600 --> 1:20:25.400 try to keep in mind is we are more online 1:20:25.520 --> 1:20:28.320 than a decent chunk of our audience. Tim Pool is 1:20:28.360 --> 1:20:32.920 a guy who attained prominence uh live streaming during the 1:20:33.040 --> 1:20:37.080 Occupy Wall Street rallies. He kind of framed himself as 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:41.200 a broadly progressive kind of liberal uh journalists. But he's 1:20:41.240 --> 1:20:43.240 like a skateboarder and he's doing ship. You know, he's 1:20:43.280 --> 1:20:45.800 live streaming a lot. He's doing, you know, experimenting with 1:20:45.840 --> 1:20:48.840 all these like novel ways of covering the news at 1:20:48.880 --> 1:20:52.360 the time, you know, we're talking like two thousand twelve. Um. Obviously, 1:20:52.479 --> 1:20:54.320 people since then have pointed out that, like he was 1:20:54.360 --> 1:20:57.160 kind of a giant dick. It occupied and I know 1:20:57.400 --> 1:21:01.360 people who were there who fucking hated him, Like, um, 1:21:02.280 --> 1:21:05.600 he he had a big platform. As a result of that, 1:21:05.720 --> 1:21:08.880 he got hired by Vice for a little while. Um. 1:21:09.160 --> 1:21:11.559 Most serious journalists who have worked with him will point 1:21:11.560 --> 1:21:14.559 out that, like he's a giant asshole and like kind 1:21:14.600 --> 1:21:18.000 of not good at anything, and it's not very smart, 1:21:18.160 --> 1:21:21.280 doesn't really know what's going on, or deliberately obtuse I've 1:21:21.320 --> 1:21:26.000 heard people like anyway, Uh, he gained prominence as he 1:21:26.160 --> 1:21:29.080 kind of increasingly through the Trump years would lean in 1:21:29.160 --> 1:21:32.000 on hard right stuff while still claiming to be liberal 1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:35.360 and progressive, and just that he was increasingly lost by 1:21:35.400 --> 1:21:40.680 the progressives who have gotten anyway, he's just gone. So 1:21:40.880 --> 1:21:43.000 that he's he has a huge audience. He does a 1:21:43.040 --> 1:21:45.479 lot of like live streaming. So the primary way that 1:21:45.600 --> 1:21:47.640 like when I say that he used to do live 1:21:47.680 --> 1:21:50.360 streaming where he would show up at a thing. He's rich. 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:53.519 Now he doesn't leave his his house in Maryland. He 1:21:53.680 --> 1:21:56.800 sits there and he like plays clips from the news 1:21:57.000 --> 1:22:01.920 and other people and then talks about them really usually 1:22:02.000 --> 1:22:06.120 wrong for commentary on it and has millions and millions 1:22:06.160 --> 1:22:10.960 of followers, and it's constantly and continues to platform people 1:22:11.040 --> 1:22:15.240 who are self described fascists, uh, far right people. Um, 1:22:15.479 --> 1:22:18.840 he's kind of he's like a he's like a vector 1:22:19.040 --> 1:22:23.840 point in that whole. He's very large, he's fairly influential 1:22:24.000 --> 1:22:28.920 within the social media algorithm of particularly Twitter. Um, he's 1:22:28.920 --> 1:22:31.599 able like his his he's able to get ship trending 1:22:31.720 --> 1:22:34.000 a lot on Twitter. So he's not someone you can 1:22:34.240 --> 1:22:36.760 entirely ignore. He hasn't he has an impact on like 1:22:37.200 --> 1:22:40.080 national discourse, and he's a lot of people on the 1:22:40.200 --> 1:22:42.559 right see him as a valuable person. He's had Alex 1:22:42.640 --> 1:22:45.800 Jones on he's hanging out with Kanye and Nick Fuintes now, 1:22:45.840 --> 1:22:47.200 which is what we're about to talk about. But the 1:22:47.280 --> 1:22:51.360 thing since, uh, since the Colorado Spring shooting, he's gone 1:22:51.439 --> 1:22:54.040 kind of completely mask off about the groomery thing, and 1:22:54.120 --> 1:22:56.720 most of his comments have been along the lines of like, well, 1:22:56.760 --> 1:22:59.240 these people were hosting a groomer event and so violence 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:01.519 was inevitable. Yeah, and I mean like like what like 1:23:01.720 --> 1:23:03.200 that's something I mean, I'm just gonna read one those 1:23:03.200 --> 1:23:05.840 tweets to give like that that's that's not an exaggeration 1:23:05.920 --> 1:23:07.880 or any kind of reading of subtext. Literally what he 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:11.040 said was quote it seems around ten pm, Club Que 1:23:11.200 --> 1:23:13.280 posted that they were having an all ages drag show 1:23:13.320 --> 1:23:15.880 the next day. About two hours later, the shooter came in. 1:23:16.439 --> 1:23:19.120 People keep calling for wood chippers, and this is what happens, 1:23:19.960 --> 1:23:21.559 like open like and this has been this a been 1:23:21.560 --> 1:23:23.160 a thing across the entire right, Like they're just there's 1:23:23.240 --> 1:23:27.280 openly either like very very openly celebrating this or you 1:23:27.400 --> 1:23:29.280 get you know, like this is one of like one 1:23:29.280 --> 1:23:33.040 of the things that because the gays are so degenerated, 1:23:33.200 --> 1:23:37.080 like Jimmy fucking Door has gone like just completely like 1:23:37.800 --> 1:23:40.120 like I literally started with like it started this thing 1:23:40.200 --> 1:23:42.760 on this with a giant rant about how like how 1:23:42.920 --> 1:23:45.000 like disgusting it is that like drag queens around kids. 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:49.240 It's like they they are just openly into full scale 1:23:49.680 --> 1:23:51.920 just openly into the like we need to get these 1:23:51.920 --> 1:23:58.400 people killed. In some ways the most horrifying instant like 1:23:58.560 --> 1:24:02.519 this because this is the first time that the reaction 1:24:03.040 --> 1:24:06.000 widely on the right has been either this was a 1:24:06.080 --> 1:24:09.559 good thing, or this was this this obviously was going 1:24:09.680 --> 1:24:13.000 to happen because gay people are evil and are grooming children, 1:24:13.240 --> 1:24:16.439 so violence has to happen against them, and like that 1:24:16.640 --> 1:24:21.200 is that was That's such a popular sentiment on the 1:24:21.400 --> 1:24:23.960 right in the aftermath of the shooting, whether it's whether 1:24:24.040 --> 1:24:28.080 it's implied and whispered or whether it's just said completely outright, 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:31.080 like it was a very clear consensus that this is 1:24:31.160 --> 1:24:35.120 what the Republican reaction was going to be, and anyone 1:24:35.320 --> 1:24:37.800 farther right of the Republicans like it. It wasn't it 1:24:37.880 --> 1:24:39.720 wasn't even just like a Nazi talking point it was 1:24:39.760 --> 1:24:43.479 just like regular Republicans in office, we're talking about this 1:24:43.960 --> 1:24:47.640 this style of rhetoric in response to the shooting. And 1:24:48.120 --> 1:24:51.799 for that reason, it's kind of the most horrifying instant 1:24:51.840 --> 1:24:55.839 we've had, um because you know, like in the aftermath 1:24:55.880 --> 1:24:58.599 of like the Pulse shooting, we did not have rhetoric 1:24:58.720 --> 1:25:01.400 like this mainstreamed in way that it is happening for 1:25:01.560 --> 1:25:04.280 the club Que shooting. It was a very very different 1:25:04.320 --> 1:25:07.920 response to the to the Pulse shooting. Also probably because 1:25:08.000 --> 1:25:14.960 the shooter there wasn't white, um, so they had yeah, 1:25:15.000 --> 1:25:17.439 they'd be like, no, the problem here was immigration, right, 1:25:17.760 --> 1:25:20.519 and no for this, like he's like, he is obviously 1:25:20.600 --> 1:25:23.880 a white dude. Um, his lawyers are pulling bullshit to 1:25:23.960 --> 1:25:27.280 get his hate crime charges pulled, but like it's obviously 1:25:27.560 --> 1:25:32.439 it's it's obviously this white guy. And the rights responses, Yeah, 1:25:32.520 --> 1:25:35.120 he was probably justified in doing what he did. And 1:25:35.479 --> 1:25:37.560 I feel like they're setting him up to be the 1:25:37.640 --> 1:25:40.320 next Kyle Rittenhouse where like he's just gonna become like 1:25:40.400 --> 1:25:45.040 this kid celebrity that I don't know if we're there yet. Yeah, 1:25:45.600 --> 1:25:48.800 partly because he got the ship kicked out of him. Um, 1:25:50.120 --> 1:25:53.680 but I finished, no, not by police by a translator, 1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:57.240 and yeah, I think you've made a good point. Like 1:25:57.560 --> 1:25:59.960 what they did get away with some ship with Written 1:26:00.080 --> 1:26:02.719 House that like I think they would not have pulled 1:26:02.800 --> 1:26:05.479 even five years before that, Like I think you wouldn't 1:26:05.520 --> 1:26:08.040 have found in people being like, yeah, he shot people 1:26:08.080 --> 1:26:10.760 in the street and this is good fuck them And 1:26:11.680 --> 1:26:16.160 it is like the slippery slipt fallacy isn't always a fallacy, 1:26:16.240 --> 1:26:18.639 but like you know, once you start there, I don't 1:26:18.680 --> 1:26:21.000 think it's a massive leap to being like, yeah, this 1:26:21.160 --> 1:26:23.360 kid shot queer people in the nightclub and that's what 1:26:23.520 --> 1:26:26.160 they had coming, even if they don't make him a hero, 1:26:26.439 --> 1:26:28.679 Like I do think that that like the Overton window 1:26:28.760 --> 1:26:31.519 moved with Written House and it's moving again with this 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:34.720 little fucker. Yeah, I think he's slightly too toxic to 1:26:35.240 --> 1:26:39.479 to go through that same celebrity status that Written Houses. Um. 1:26:40.200 --> 1:26:42.240 He also I can't speak. I think he's been like 1:26:43.000 --> 1:26:46.120 in his court appearances, he's like not capable. I think 1:26:46.160 --> 1:26:49.240 he's saying got eaten very badly to ship, which is 1:26:49.320 --> 1:26:51.920 the thing that you get the thing that scares me 1:26:52.920 --> 1:26:57.200 as like a potential Written House event, but kind of 1:26:57.360 --> 1:27:00.880 in the in the antique weird mesh shooter vibe is 1:27:00.960 --> 1:27:05.040 like you have some father or something who's separated from 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:09.040 the kid and their other parent takes them to a 1:27:09.120 --> 1:27:11.719 drag queen event and dad shows up and start shooting, 1:27:11.880 --> 1:27:13.839 and like that's a thing that's a lot of easier 1:27:13.920 --> 1:27:16.639 to get the right to pile on. Yeah, that's that's 1:27:16.680 --> 1:27:19.799 the instance where that person now becomes a cultural figure 1:27:20.720 --> 1:27:23.759 in this way. That's more similar to what has happened 1:27:23.840 --> 1:27:27.080 with Rittenhouse. Um, and that just is like the hell scenario. 1:27:27.360 --> 1:27:29.679 And I think the other important thing is like they're 1:27:29.720 --> 1:27:31.680 deliberately trying to incite this, Like this is this is 1:27:31.720 --> 1:27:34.840 deliberate and like and there's an interesting thing like Nick 1:27:34.920 --> 1:27:36.760 Flints had this interviewing. I mean this is partially just 1:27:36.840 --> 1:27:38.519 this is just who fucking Nick flintys is. We had 1:27:38.520 --> 1:27:41.400 this thing after the election where he was like, uh, well, 1:27:41.600 --> 1:27:43.160 I'm like we we can we we we we like 1:27:43.280 --> 1:27:45.519 we we can't we can't take power by like like 1:27:45.640 --> 1:27:47.519 we we we can't actually get our agenda by voting. 1:27:47.560 --> 1:27:49.519 We have to do it by like theocratic fascism, right, 1:27:49.960 --> 1:27:52.400 and and I you know, okay, so obviously this is 1:27:52.520 --> 1:27:54.599 Nick Flints, but I think this is part of what's 1:27:54.640 --> 1:27:58.599 happening right now, which is that the reason that they're 1:27:58.640 --> 1:28:01.040 doing this, right, the reason that right now, the thing 1:28:01.080 --> 1:28:03.320 that they're trying to do was inside a jettocide is 1:28:03.520 --> 1:28:06.160 because they're fucking losing everything. They know it, right. Every 1:28:06.280 --> 1:28:10.120 single day, church attendance drops. It's been dropping for twenty years. 1:28:10.200 --> 1:28:12.840 It's never coming back, like nine eleven didn't do it, 1:28:13.040 --> 1:28:15.040 like Trump didn't do it. Nothing, Nothing is ever going 1:28:15.080 --> 1:28:17.719 to bring people back to these churches, like unless maybe 1:28:17.760 --> 1:28:19.880 they solve their sexual assault problem, but that's not like 1:28:19.920 --> 1:28:23.360 they structurally can't do that, right, So, you know, every 1:28:23.400 --> 1:28:25.880 single day religiosity drops in this country, every single like 1:28:25.920 --> 1:28:28.599 every single day, very slowly, and we have been doing 1:28:28.680 --> 1:28:31.000 this roughly for about fifteen years. Now we are winning, 1:28:31.680 --> 1:28:33.920 and this is what they're fucking terrified of, right, They 1:28:34.000 --> 1:28:36.880 have to move right now, like exactly in this moment 1:28:37.520 --> 1:28:39.200 is the is the moment they could exterminate us. If 1:28:39.200 --> 1:28:41.640 they wait any longer, they're fucked because they're you know, 1:28:41.720 --> 1:28:44.360 the base for this kind of sort of like like 1:28:44.600 --> 1:28:47.720 this specific kind of of Christian fascism isn't going to 1:28:47.800 --> 1:28:51.120 be there, like there will be other fascisms, but you know, 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:54.040 every every every single day that they fucking wait, like 1:28:54.240 --> 1:28:57.560 another person leaves the church, and so you know, like 1:28:57.840 --> 1:28:59.760 right now, and you know, and they can't do it 1:28:59.800 --> 1:29:02.040 all totally right. We just saw that they got fucking 1:29:02.080 --> 1:29:04.680 destroyed trying to lean into the ship. Because and then 1:29:04.720 --> 1:29:06.200 this is the ever thing, right, like the everything that's 1:29:06.200 --> 1:29:07.840 been happening since the two thousands. And this is the 1:29:07.920 --> 1:29:10.599 thing that's very different about this moment than any other 1:29:10.680 --> 1:29:14.000 moment that has happened in US history is that the vast, 1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:16.840 vast majority of people are are are pre pro crew wides, 1:29:16.840 --> 1:29:19.360 are prology bt Q or pro game marriage game marriage 1:29:19.360 --> 1:29:23.479 polls consistently in about right. And even with the ship 1:29:23.800 --> 1:29:25.760 that that hasn't moved in needle on it, right, they 1:29:25.960 --> 1:29:28.920 know that they have to right now, right, they have 1:29:29.040 --> 1:29:31.640 to fu kill us. All they have left is this 1:29:31.760 --> 1:29:33.360 solely have left. They they have they have no work 1:29:33.760 --> 1:29:36.639 action basically like it's like and they see no other 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:40.600 viable way to mainstream this. And that's why we have 1:29:41.200 --> 1:29:45.519 hours after the shooting, lives of TikTok posting about queer 1:29:45.680 --> 1:29:49.840 events in Colorado, because they're they're trying to get this 1:29:50.000 --> 1:29:51.880 thing to happen. They're trying to do more trying to 1:29:52.000 --> 1:29:54.599 press the attack. Yeah. But but but but I think, 1:29:54.600 --> 1:29:56.040 I think, I think this is this is like the 1:29:56.080 --> 1:29:58.880 only thing, like this is a sign of their weakness, right, 1:29:58.920 --> 1:30:01.679 And and they're like, again, the the number, the physical 1:30:01.840 --> 1:30:04.479 number of people who are pushing this ship is not 1:30:04.680 --> 1:30:07.200 that large, right and and you know again like this 1:30:07.320 --> 1:30:09.000 is this is you know, I've I've I've talked a 1:30:09.080 --> 1:30:11.639 lot about how the silent majority in this country doesn't 1:30:11.840 --> 1:30:15.200 agree with this ship and like they're literally are not 1:30:15.280 --> 1:30:17.960 that fucking many of them. We can stop them, like 1:30:18.280 --> 1:30:20.880 this is an actual thing, Like you know, like there 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:22.880 there there there's a limit to which we can even 1:30:22.880 --> 1:30:25.960 sort of talk about this. But like, okay, we've been 1:30:26.000 --> 1:30:28.760 doing community self defense like as as sort of like 1:30:28.840 --> 1:30:30.720 the big principle of the left sense of Trump era. 1:30:31.200 --> 1:30:34.320 We have reached a point where like, you know, we 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:37.240 can defend ourselves, but if well, if we're limited to 1:30:37.360 --> 1:30:39.000 just defending ourselves, they're going to kill a bunch of 1:30:39.080 --> 1:30:42.280 us first. And that means that we like we actually 1:30:42.400 --> 1:30:45.200 have to start taking the fight to these media platforms 1:30:45.200 --> 1:30:47.360 where we have to start taking the fight specifically trying 1:30:47.360 --> 1:30:49.240 to get these people sucking off air and then you know, 1:30:49.400 --> 1:30:52.120 failing that, like fucking showing up and like blowing a 1:30:52.200 --> 1:30:54.920 fucking air horn in try a right checks like ear 1:30:55.000 --> 1:30:57.639 every single time she leaves her house. Right, because all 1:30:57.680 --> 1:30:59.720 of all of these people sucking, their entire lives depend 1:30:59.800 --> 1:31:02.439 on our labor. Right, Every single fucking uber they take, 1:31:02.479 --> 1:31:04.680 every single meal they eat, is all prepared by us. 1:31:05.240 --> 1:31:07.439 And you know we can fucking find them, and we 1:31:07.520 --> 1:31:09.439 can we can make their lives fucking hell if this 1:31:09.520 --> 1:31:12.040 is what they're going to do to us. Garrison, do 1:31:12.080 --> 1:31:14.000 you want to do? You want to talk about Focus 1:31:14.080 --> 1:31:17.519 on the Family? It talks and Colorado. Oh yeah, there 1:31:17.680 --> 1:31:19.960 was speaking of the kind of direct action Chris was 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:22.880 talking about showing up where these people are and making 1:31:22.920 --> 1:31:26.000 it very clear that they don't get to pretend anymore 1:31:26.080 --> 1:31:30.240 to not be complicit in in murder. Um that that's 1:31:30.240 --> 1:31:34.479 a story. Yeah. Some some people did did show up 1:31:34.560 --> 1:31:38.760 at the Colorado Springs Focus on the Family headquarters. Um 1:31:39.520 --> 1:31:43.479 did a did a graffiti left some left some messages 1:31:43.560 --> 1:31:47.960 out front and posted a community ca of sorts. I 1:31:48.000 --> 1:31:51.360 think they called them debotic, which is pretty funny remembering 1:31:51.439 --> 1:31:55.120 the message written. The thing right, that is a weird place. 1:31:55.680 --> 1:32:00.200 It talked about how Satan this can the sky is 1:32:00.439 --> 1:32:03.840 himself as an angel light. That's that's talking about the 1:32:03.920 --> 1:32:07.479 types of like self righteousness that these Christian fascist groups 1:32:07.520 --> 1:32:11.040 put on and in but in effect they're all kind 1:32:11.040 --> 1:32:17.479 of murderous snakes. Um. That was people trying trying to 1:32:17.640 --> 1:32:21.240 use the Bible against these guys, which is funny in 1:32:21.280 --> 1:32:24.479 an ironic way. And I don't think they actually care 1:32:24.479 --> 1:32:26.599 because they don't atually care. I don't think they actually 1:32:26.600 --> 1:32:28.400 care what the Bible sets. They don't don't give a 1:32:28.640 --> 1:32:30.880 about what the Bible says, they give a shit about. Yeah, 1:32:31.479 --> 1:32:34.719 but that's showing. But showing up and and and doing 1:32:34.920 --> 1:32:38.080 doing a little thing outside outside their headquarters is definitely 1:32:38.160 --> 1:32:42.960 a good first step. When when me and James went there, um, 1:32:43.600 --> 1:32:45.519 you know, like in terms of this is just an 1:32:45.640 --> 1:32:50.439 interesting an interesting comment, like police did not help at 1:32:50.760 --> 1:32:53.559 the club queue shooting at all, and they came back 1:32:53.600 --> 1:32:56.800 towards and they held and they you know, as as 1:32:56.840 --> 1:32:59.840 they usually do, they'll they'll they arrest the person who 1:33:00.120 --> 1:33:02.519 who who helped who help stop the match shooting. Um. 1:33:03.160 --> 1:33:04.680 When me and James went to the Focus on the 1:33:04.680 --> 1:33:09.080 Family headquarters last summer, Um, there was a Colorado police 1:33:09.120 --> 1:33:13.479 officer inside the building the entire time, um constantly. They're 1:33:13.800 --> 1:33:18.600 mostly watching me because I was the obvious, obvious outcast 1:33:18.720 --> 1:33:22.080 inside there. But that police are stationed at Focus in 1:33:22.120 --> 1:33:25.519 the family all the time to make sure nothing bad 1:33:25.560 --> 1:33:28.439 happens there. But they're not going to do ship to 1:33:28.560 --> 1:33:31.920 help queer people getting murdered. But they're gonna stay. They're 1:33:31.920 --> 1:33:34.720 gonna have a police car outside of the Focus in 1:33:34.720 --> 1:33:38.240 the family building and have have an officer inside all 1:33:38.320 --> 1:33:41.840 the time because that's what the police actually do. Yeah, 1:33:41.880 --> 1:33:45.960 I mean, it's it's like it is increasingly obvious if 1:33:46.000 --> 1:33:48.160 you have been paying any attention in the last decade. 1:33:48.200 --> 1:33:50.360 The only consequences that exists in this world as us, 1:33:51.120 --> 1:33:54.000 and you know it is in our hands to decide 1:33:54.040 --> 1:33:57.080 what the consequences for these people fucking attempting to inside 1:33:57.120 --> 1:34:02.040 a genocide are all that's gonna do it for us here. 1:34:02.120 --> 1:34:07.240 It could happen here until next time. Uh, I don't 1:34:07.280 --> 1:34:26.640 know until next time. Hello everybody, and welcome back to 1:34:26.840 --> 1:34:30.000 It could happen here a podcast about things falling apart 1:34:30.080 --> 1:34:32.920 and occasionally about how to put them back together again. 1:34:33.080 --> 1:34:35.479 And today we have a special episode we're gonna be 1:34:35.520 --> 1:34:38.479 talking about a place where things did in fact fall 1:34:38.560 --> 1:34:42.040 apart and people are you could say, still in the 1:34:42.120 --> 1:34:44.280 process of putting them back together again and trying to 1:34:44.320 --> 1:34:46.800 do it in a way that is much more equitable 1:34:46.960 --> 1:34:50.240 and better than things have been before the collapse. That 1:34:50.479 --> 1:34:55.120 is Rojaba in Northeast Syria. UM. I'm going to introduce 1:34:55.200 --> 1:34:58.320 kind of that concept in I'll do it right now 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:00.960 basically if you if you don't anything about this, you 1:35:01.040 --> 1:35:03.519 might check out our podcast The Women's War UM. But 1:35:03.680 --> 1:35:06.360 it is a it is an autonomous region, not a 1:35:06.479 --> 1:35:09.000 state in northeast Syria that is not under the control 1:35:09.040 --> 1:35:12.720 of the Assad regime UM or of any other state 1:35:12.840 --> 1:35:16.840 in the area. It's an independent UM community that is 1:35:17.200 --> 1:35:20.280 based on some pretty radical it's you know, it's organization 1:35:20.439 --> 1:35:24.560 is based on some pretty radical political philosophies UM, in 1:35:24.720 --> 1:35:27.680 large part ones that were sort of initially explored by 1:35:27.680 --> 1:35:30.360 a man named Murray Buchin, who is an American social 1:35:30.439 --> 1:35:35.280 theorist and anarchists anarchist political philosopher UM and some of 1:35:35.360 --> 1:35:38.280 his ideas were adopted by the leader of a militant 1:35:38.320 --> 1:35:40.400 group in the region called the p k k UM. 1:35:40.600 --> 1:35:42.439 And the leader of that group was a guy in 1:35:42.520 --> 1:35:44.720 a Turkish prison named of Doula, a Gelan who was 1:35:45.080 --> 1:35:48.320 you might say, a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon encountered 1:35:48.320 --> 1:35:51.960 bookstions ideas and started writing his own books of political 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:54.040 theory that we're kind of based off of them. And 1:35:54.120 --> 1:35:57.639 then when uh two thousand thirteen, you get the Syrian 1:35:57.720 --> 1:36:01.599 Civil War reaches its kind of high, Isis becomes the thing. 1:36:01.840 --> 1:36:04.080 Suddenly the government's not in this area that has a 1:36:04.160 --> 1:36:08.800 large Kurtish population, Northeast Syria, and you know, people who 1:36:08.840 --> 1:36:13.519 are followers of Augelon takeover and start as they're fighting. 1:36:13.560 --> 1:36:16.840 Isis instituting this kind of radical feminist, egalitarian vision of 1:36:16.880 --> 1:36:20.320 society which is currently under attacked by the Turkish government, 1:36:20.320 --> 1:36:21.720 which is what we're gonna be talking about. So I 1:36:21.760 --> 1:36:23.640 want to introduce our guests for today. First off, we 1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:27.439 have James Stout and we have Chris on the call 1:36:27.640 --> 1:36:30.080 from our normal Cool Zone team. And then our guests 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:33.200 today are Debbie book Chin. Debbie is a journalist and 1:36:33.280 --> 1:36:36.600 author and co editor of The Next Revolution, Popular Assemblies 1:36:36.600 --> 1:36:40.599 and the Promise of the Direct Democracy UM. And then 1:36:40.800 --> 1:36:45.920 we also have Megan Bodette from the Kurdish Peace Institute, 1:36:46.240 --> 1:36:49.240 where she is the director of Research. UM, welcome to 1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:52.680 the show, Megan and Debbie. Thank you, it's great to 1:36:52.760 --> 1:36:56.479 be here. Thank you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah, 1:36:56.600 --> 1:36:58.560 thank you both for your time. I think maybe to 1:36:58.640 --> 1:37:02.080 start us out, Megan, UM, would you be willing to 1:37:02.720 --> 1:37:06.320 talk a little bit about why the Turkish government is 1:37:06.400 --> 1:37:10.000 so aggressive towards this independent region in Northeast Aria and 1:37:10.120 --> 1:37:14.320 kind of what the situation on the ground is now. Yeah, 1:37:14.520 --> 1:37:19.560 absolutely so. For some background, essentially, since the division of 1:37:19.840 --> 1:37:24.000 the Middle East into the modern nation states that exist 1:37:24.080 --> 1:37:29.080 there today after World War One, with the agreements by 1:37:29.320 --> 1:37:34.280 European powers, the Kurdish people have been divided between four 1:37:34.600 --> 1:37:38.640 different states Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and all of 1:37:38.720 --> 1:37:42.280 those states have had governments that have been ethno nationalists, 1:37:42.360 --> 1:37:45.040 that have been repressive, that have not provided Kurds and 1:37:45.120 --> 1:37:49.200 other ethnic and religious minorities equal citizenship rights UM, to 1:37:49.360 --> 1:37:52.800 participate in politics and to practice their culture, to speak 1:37:52.840 --> 1:37:56.120 their language um, in addition to denying many of these 1:37:56.240 --> 1:37:59.960 rights to many of their other citizens of different ethnicity 1:38:00.200 --> 1:38:03.320 and religions as well. And so as a result of 1:38:03.439 --> 1:38:06.519 this repression and the repression in Turkey was some of 1:38:06.600 --> 1:38:10.400 the strongest and most systemic UM. The Kurdish people in 1:38:10.479 --> 1:38:14.880 these regions have continued to struggle for and demand self 1:38:14.960 --> 1:38:19.400 determination and freedom in different political forms. What happened in 1:38:19.520 --> 1:38:22.400 Turkey in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, there 1:38:22.479 --> 1:38:27.559 were Kurdish revolts against the new um Turkish Republic, which 1:38:27.840 --> 1:38:33.560 was a very autocratic nation state that denied the existence 1:38:33.800 --> 1:38:37.639 of all non Turkish ethnicities. And these revolts were all 1:38:37.840 --> 1:38:41.679 violently put down with attacks that not only targeted those 1:38:41.840 --> 1:38:45.920 who tried to resist these policies of assimilation, but that 1:38:46.040 --> 1:38:49.920 also resulted in um Turkish you know, mass violence against 1:38:50.040 --> 1:38:54.360 Kurdish civilians in these regions. You had forced deportations, you 1:38:54.560 --> 1:38:58.559 had ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds of brutal violence 1:38:58.560 --> 1:39:03.160 against civilians in order to specifically create this homogeneous Turkish 1:39:03.400 --> 1:39:07.920 ethnic identity in Kurdish regions. And so after this period 1:39:08.000 --> 1:39:12.519 of time there were um there was a period wherein 1:39:12.920 --> 1:39:16.000 there was less resistance, and I think, you know, the 1:39:16.080 --> 1:39:20.639 Turkish government believed that the Kurdish problem had been solved 1:39:20.760 --> 1:39:23.519 by force, they had successfully been able to kill or 1:39:23.600 --> 1:39:28.320 assimilate all of the Kurdish people. But in the nineteen 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:31.400 seventies and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with many 1:39:31.600 --> 1:39:34.960 national liberation movements around the world, you had the beginning 1:39:35.200 --> 1:39:39.240 of the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers Parties national liberation struggle. 1:39:39.680 --> 1:39:42.759 Now they began as a socialist movement seeking an independent 1:39:42.840 --> 1:39:46.760 and socialist Kurdish state, and they saw Kurdistan as a 1:39:46.960 --> 1:39:51.560 colony that was occupied by Turkey, and with the colonialism 1:39:52.080 --> 1:39:56.680 of Turkey in Kurdistan was supported by imperialist powers in 1:39:56.760 --> 1:39:59.799 the rest of the world as well, and they sought 1:40:00.000 --> 1:40:04.639 to write that as other national liberation movements in Africa, Asia, 1:40:04.760 --> 1:40:07.519 Latin America many places at the time did with an 1:40:07.640 --> 1:40:12.840 armed struggle for independence. And in responding to the PKK's 1:40:12.920 --> 1:40:16.840 formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state once again, rather 1:40:16.960 --> 1:40:22.759 than acceding to any Kurdish demands, they responded with brutal, 1:40:22.960 --> 1:40:26.920 violent oppression of not only Kurds who were active in 1:40:26.960 --> 1:40:30.360 the armed struggle, not only politically active Kurds, but on 1:40:30.479 --> 1:40:34.680 all forms of Kurdish identity. After the military coup in 1:40:34.800 --> 1:40:38.320 Turkey and nineteen eighty the Kurdish language was banned. Um 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:43.519 Kurds were imprisoned on false charges or no charges at all. UM, 1:40:44.280 --> 1:40:48.040 torture was prevalent, show trials were prevalent. UM any kind 1:40:48.120 --> 1:40:52.679 of publication or other public interaction in Kurdish was completely illegal. 1:40:53.479 --> 1:40:55.960 So there was this full scale effort to repress the 1:40:56.040 --> 1:40:59.080 Kurds and any other progressive segments of society in Turkey 1:40:59.160 --> 1:41:02.320 that would have supported them, and as the conflict went on, 1:41:03.520 --> 1:41:07.280 Turkey did very little to change. By the nineteen nineties, 1:41:07.640 --> 1:41:11.400 the success of the Kurdish movement had forced the state 1:41:11.520 --> 1:41:15.120 to recalibrate, as had developments in Iraqi, Kurdistan with Kords, 1:41:15.160 --> 1:41:18.840 they're achieving autonomy and so you started to have the 1:41:18.920 --> 1:41:23.080 ability of Kurdish political actors to work within the system. 1:41:23.200 --> 1:41:26.439 We saw the development of pro Kurdish legal political parties 1:41:26.479 --> 1:41:32.040 at that time, but there was still very severe repression 1:41:32.320 --> 1:41:36.120 of any and all things Kurdish as they made their demands, 1:41:36.240 --> 1:41:39.520 even of those who increasingly attempted to make demands peacefully. 1:41:40.240 --> 1:41:43.640 So the conflict went on throughout the nineteen nineties and 1:41:43.760 --> 1:41:47.439 the two thousands and to this day UM despite a 1:41:47.479 --> 1:41:51.639 peace process between the Government of Turkey and the PKK 1:41:51.800 --> 1:41:57.200 and the Kurdish Movement between twelve and twenty fifteen UM, 1:41:57.560 --> 1:42:03.320 that process failed when Ridwan's government saw that it was 1:42:03.439 --> 1:42:07.639 allowing for Kurds to take advantage of expanded democratic space 1:42:07.720 --> 1:42:12.960 in Turkey organized and achieve electoral political success. The government 1:42:13.040 --> 1:42:17.519 abandoned its commitments and sadly returned to war, and the 1:42:17.600 --> 1:42:21.519 conflict has been going on ever since and has included, 1:42:21.600 --> 1:42:24.479 you know, again, not only this military component, but this 1:42:24.600 --> 1:42:28.720 component of crushing all forms of organized Kurdish political and 1:42:28.800 --> 1:42:32.760 cultural expression. So what we've been seeing in Turkey over 1:42:32.840 --> 1:42:35.560 the past um, nearly a decade, now more than a 1:42:35.600 --> 1:42:39.599 half decade, is the repression of the pro Kurdish political 1:42:39.680 --> 1:42:43.080 opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic Party or the HDP. UM, 1:42:43.280 --> 1:42:48.120 we've seen repression of Kurdish media, attacks on Kurdish journalists, UM, 1:42:48.400 --> 1:42:53.439 we've seen any kind of Kurdish activism, not only um 1:42:53.680 --> 1:42:56.640 that that's explicitly political, but any kind of acknowledgment of 1:42:56.680 --> 1:43:00.840 the Kurdish language, of Kurdish colors, of Kurtish clothing very 1:43:00.920 --> 1:43:05.760 readily criminalized. And this campaign of attacking and repressing all 1:43:05.840 --> 1:43:09.519 things Kurdish has of course expanded beyond Turkey's borders. So 1:43:09.640 --> 1:43:14.040 Turkey opposes North aneas Syria because the Syrian Kurds have 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:17.120 created a form of autonomous governance that protects and promotes 1:43:17.200 --> 1:43:20.440 Kurdish rights because they have done so in the framework 1:43:20.560 --> 1:43:23.080 of the Kurdish Freedom movement that has its roots in 1:43:23.200 --> 1:43:27.000 Turkey UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as you explained, and 1:43:27.120 --> 1:43:32.240 because they've been able to create a successful alternative to 1:43:33.240 --> 1:43:37.479 the very sort of nationalist project that the modern Turkish 1:43:37.560 --> 1:43:40.280 state is based on. You know, I would say that 1:43:40.600 --> 1:43:43.200 the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't like to call 1:43:43.280 --> 1:43:45.240 it that, but that is what most people call it 1:43:45.360 --> 1:43:49.439 today is really a conflict now over to competing visions 1:43:49.479 --> 1:43:53.200 of regional order with Turkeys based on the right ring 1:43:53.439 --> 1:43:58.360 wing neo liberal nation state and the Kurdish movement's vision 1:43:58.400 --> 1:44:02.480 of a Middle East based on self determination, liberation, equality 1:44:02.560 --> 1:44:05.720 for women, and other values not only for birds but 1:44:05.880 --> 1:44:09.880 for all people. So because Northern East Syria represents UM 1:44:10.680 --> 1:44:15.240 both Kurdish success and in creating an autonomous region, and 1:44:15.479 --> 1:44:18.400 it represents these ideas of the Kurdish Freedom movement that 1:44:18.560 --> 1:44:22.600 challenge Turkey's nationalist project UM. Turkey has been trying to 1:44:22.880 --> 1:44:27.160 destroy the Autonomous Administration of Northern East Syria by all 1:44:27.280 --> 1:44:30.839 possible means for a very long time now. They've invaded 1:44:30.960 --> 1:44:35.679 Syrian territory twice to attack the Autonomous Administration and the SDF, 1:44:36.080 --> 1:44:39.320 the Syrian Democratic Forces, once in a frena in two 1:44:39.360 --> 1:44:41.960 thousand and eighteen a frina Is in northwestern Syria, and 1:44:42.040 --> 1:44:45.640 then once in two thousand nineteen after UM, you know 1:44:45.760 --> 1:44:49.320 Trump and air Tawan's phone call that we all infamously 1:44:49.439 --> 1:44:54.439 remember in Sarah Kanyer and tal Abiad in northeastern Syria. 1:44:55.080 --> 1:44:58.240 So you've had these two invasions and occupations of UM 1:44:58.800 --> 1:45:02.599 North and East Syria territory that have included not only 1:45:02.800 --> 1:45:07.200 the terrible violence of invasion and occupation, but also all 1:45:07.320 --> 1:45:10.799 kinds of crimes against civilians who remained. We've seen uptakes 1:45:11.000 --> 1:45:16.520 in violence and abuse of women, ethnically motivated, religiously motivated 1:45:16.600 --> 1:45:19.840 hatred and persecution that's driven virtually all of the non 1:45:19.920 --> 1:45:22.800 Arab and non Muslim people living in these regions to 1:45:22.880 --> 1:45:27.360 flee their homes. Attacks on anyone who is perceived as 1:45:27.400 --> 1:45:31.240 having collaborated with the prior administration all being carried out 1:45:31.320 --> 1:45:35.479 by Turkey and Turkish back Syrian militia groups. So we've 1:45:35.520 --> 1:45:37.840 seen the persecution of the civilians in these areas with 1:45:37.960 --> 1:45:42.200 the intent of changing demographics and installing not only a 1:45:42.280 --> 1:45:46.120 government sympathetic to Turkey and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey, 1:45:46.160 --> 1:45:50.240 but also removing the social base for the Autonomous Administration's project. 1:45:50.920 --> 1:45:53.800 And then, in addition to these all out attacks on 1:45:53.880 --> 1:45:57.719 the Autonomous Administration in these regions, Turkey continues to threaten 1:45:57.880 --> 1:46:00.760 the territory that North Aneast Syria does have left, which 1:46:00.800 --> 1:46:04.280 is still nearly one third of Syrian territory concentrated in 1:46:04.360 --> 1:46:08.120 the northeast. There's been an escalating campaign of drone strikes 1:46:08.240 --> 1:46:11.559 targeting leaders in the Autonomous Administration and the STF, as 1:46:11.600 --> 1:46:16.000 well as Syrian civilians. Turkey is cutting water access to 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:20.000 northern East Syria by restricting the flow of the Euphrates River. 1:46:20.600 --> 1:46:23.639 This is an agricultural region. People depend on that water 1:46:24.240 --> 1:46:27.919 for all aspects of life um and certainly for the economy. 1:46:28.680 --> 1:46:32.599 That's caused a great deal of suffering. The entire Turkish 1:46:32.640 --> 1:46:36.479 Syrian border is very heavily militarized. When you drive by 1:46:36.560 --> 1:46:38.840 it and you see the wall and you know, very 1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:41.160 lit up at night with the barbed wire and everything, 1:46:41.960 --> 1:46:44.599 and you just look at, you know, these civilian towns, 1:46:44.760 --> 1:46:47.800 very peaceful on both sides. It's something very disturbing to 1:46:47.920 --> 1:46:50.840 see UM. But it's a highly militarized border and it 1:46:51.080 --> 1:46:55.160 is completely sealed border. UM. Turkey does not trade with 1:46:55.280 --> 1:46:59.519 northern East Syria and supports an international economic blockade on 1:46:59.600 --> 1:47:03.839 the reed En, including by pressuring its allies to restrict 1:47:04.000 --> 1:47:07.479 the access of goods to North and East Syria. So 1:47:07.560 --> 1:47:11.120 there's economics they're going on there. There are really every 1:47:11.200 --> 1:47:17.000 tactic that Turkey is able to use, whether military, economic, environmental, political, 1:47:17.240 --> 1:47:20.960 or anything else in order to crush and destroy on 1:47:21.160 --> 1:47:25.120 with any serious political project and force the Kurdish people 1:47:25.200 --> 1:47:27.439 and the other peoples of that region to flee so 1:47:27.560 --> 1:47:30.240 that there is no base for such a project again 1:47:30.320 --> 1:47:33.479 in the future. Uh. They're doing everything they can to 1:47:33.720 --> 1:47:37.760 achieve that outcome. So the situation is very difficult and 1:47:38.080 --> 1:47:41.960 it is a direct result of Turkeys, you know, century 1:47:42.040 --> 1:47:46.720 old Kurdish question that it has been unable and unwilling 1:47:47.520 --> 1:47:53.080 to honestly and in good faith a peaceful solution to UM. 1:47:53.680 --> 1:47:56.080 And we'll get to it later, but the international community 1:47:56.120 --> 1:47:58.080 has played a very big role in ensuring that that 1:47:58.160 --> 1:48:00.800 conflict goes on with all of those at its consequences 1:48:00.840 --> 1:48:04.600 for Northeast Aria. Yeah, I mean, and that's one of 1:48:04.680 --> 1:48:09.680 the so obviously Turkey is the second largest military in 1:48:09.840 --> 1:48:14.920 NATO UM and has you know, one of the things 1:48:14.960 --> 1:48:17.479 that is such like so messy about this is that 1:48:18.200 --> 1:48:20.799 on paper and on the ground, in fact, the United 1:48:20.840 --> 1:48:24.800 States has been supporting the Autonomous Region um IN in 1:48:24.960 --> 1:48:28.120 northeast Syria and particularly the White PG in the White PJ, 1:48:28.320 --> 1:48:32.960 which is you know, the militia essentially um AS as 1:48:33.040 --> 1:48:35.360 partners in the fight against ISIS. And still to this day, 1:48:35.479 --> 1:48:37.559 right now, there's an operation going on in the Al 1:48:37.600 --> 1:48:39.839 Whole Camp, which is where a lot of ISIS prisoners 1:48:40.320 --> 1:48:43.960 are held. UM that is like a coalition supported operation. 1:48:44.040 --> 1:48:46.080 At the same time that the United States is doing this, 1:48:46.680 --> 1:48:50.280 we're selling weapons to the people who are have essentially 1:48:50.360 --> 1:48:53.640 declared the folks that are military has been aiding a 1:48:53.800 --> 1:48:58.240 terrorist organization UM, which is a peculiar in frustrating situation 1:48:58.280 --> 1:49:02.880 to say the least. Yeah. And and actually the other 1:49:03.040 --> 1:49:07.800 thing that's happening, Robert is that you know, Turkey, while 1:49:07.840 --> 1:49:11.960 it's threatening a full scale invasion, they've been doing all 1:49:12.040 --> 1:49:14.960 of these things that Megan described sort of on this 1:49:15.240 --> 1:49:20.400 sort of low intensity warfare scale. A kind of military 1:49:20.520 --> 1:49:25.000 strategy that uses a whole variety of tactics um that 1:49:25.120 --> 1:49:28.479 are short of you know, a full scale invasion, which 1:49:28.600 --> 1:49:32.320 still may come. And so you know, there's these extra 1:49:32.439 --> 1:49:37.759 judicial killings of uh, some of the leaders of the SDF, 1:49:37.960 --> 1:49:40.760 which is the Syrian Democratic Forces which is the sort 1:49:40.800 --> 1:49:44.200 of umbrella group of the two militia Kurdish militias that 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:47.920 you described, and which also includes many Arab fighters and 1:49:48.040 --> 1:49:51.519 others who have who have been central and defeating ISIS 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:55.639 at the cost I might add of about thirteen thousand lives, 1:49:56.080 --> 1:49:58.840 you know, and um, you know, and the and the 1:49:59.000 --> 1:50:02.200 use of their pro see groups like the Syrian so 1:50:02.479 --> 1:50:05.800 called you know s N, a Syrian National Army, which 1:50:05.880 --> 1:50:10.080 is really you know, a group of jihadi militias that 1:50:10.200 --> 1:50:14.640 Turkey has kind of assembled and now completely is responsive 1:50:14.720 --> 1:50:17.799 to Turkey and and is the sort of shock troops 1:50:17.920 --> 1:50:21.640 for when they went did go into Afron and for 1:50:21.800 --> 1:50:26.479 these other invasions, um, you know, economic pressures as Megan described. 1:50:26.520 --> 1:50:29.320 But the point is that this kind of warfare, it 1:50:29.520 --> 1:50:34.519 produces these sort of ongoing low level attacks, but it 1:50:34.720 --> 1:50:37.200 keeps it sort of off the radar of the of 1:50:37.360 --> 1:50:42.599 the bigger political and media machine, and therefore it keeps 1:50:42.720 --> 1:50:46.200 it from getting the attention that it really deserves in 1:50:46.360 --> 1:50:51.360 Western societies. It also has the impact of displacing hundreds 1:50:51.400 --> 1:50:54.680 of thousands of people and and uh, you know, and 1:50:54.880 --> 1:50:58.759 and many hundreds have also been killed. I'm sure probably 1:50:58.840 --> 1:51:02.639 you're familiar with some of the recent bombings by drone 1:51:02.720 --> 1:51:06.120 that have been occurring in Rojeva, which you know, including 1:51:06.320 --> 1:51:12.479 many civilians, school children. Turkey. Turkey is doesn't care at 1:51:12.560 --> 1:51:15.679 all about about who gets hit, and they have been 1:51:16.000 --> 1:51:20.880 very aggressive, um, without any respect for civilian casualties as well. 1:51:21.560 --> 1:51:24.519 So you know, So, I mean, I think it's it's 1:51:24.600 --> 1:51:29.400 important to also just note that this democratic project is 1:51:29.640 --> 1:51:33.400 in Syria is a deep threat to Turkey because and 1:51:33.560 --> 1:51:37.479 and that every time Airdoan steps up these military sort 1:51:37.520 --> 1:51:41.760 of disaggression, um, it leads him to Brice slightly in 1:51:41.800 --> 1:51:44.120 the polls, which is something that's important to him because 1:51:44.160 --> 1:51:47.479 he has an election coming up next year. So there's 1:51:47.520 --> 1:51:51.160 that sort of political dimension to it. But the fact 1:51:51.360 --> 1:51:56.719 is that that Rojeva is basically a women's revolution. Women 1:51:56.760 --> 1:52:01.200 are involved in every aspect of running society there, the political, 1:52:01.320 --> 1:52:06.280 the social, the economic, and Turkey is essentially a femicidal state. 1:52:06.840 --> 1:52:10.040 You know it not only reviews women within within Turkey 1:52:10.200 --> 1:52:13.000 is less than human where husbands can basically get away 1:52:13.080 --> 1:52:16.719 with murdering their wives. But you know it targets girls 1:52:16.800 --> 1:52:19.400 with drones, as it did on August eighteenth when a 1:52:19.439 --> 1:52:22.840 Turkish drone bombed to you and supported education center for 1:52:23.000 --> 1:52:26.960 young girls and in Herseka and Roosjeva. So you know, 1:52:27.920 --> 1:52:31.760 it's it's very much, as Megan said, a war of 1:52:32.000 --> 1:52:35.560 ideologies as well. Again, one of the things that's so 1:52:35.680 --> 1:52:39.880 frustrating with this so historically, the reason why Turkey was 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:42.240 it was so important for NATO to get Turkey as 1:52:42.240 --> 1:52:45.040 a member is because that's essentially NATO's eastern flank. If 1:52:45.040 --> 1:52:48.880 you're still thinking about that big theoretical conflict between you know, 1:52:49.040 --> 1:52:52.719 Russia and UH and the Western democracies. That was why, 1:52:53.360 --> 1:52:55.680 you know, part of why why initially like Turkey was 1:52:55.760 --> 1:52:57.840 such a valued partner, and then as time has gone on, 1:52:58.520 --> 1:53:01.080 it's um primary early I'm one of the big things 1:53:01.160 --> 1:53:03.120 is we have a massive air base in Turkey, in 1:53:03.240 --> 1:53:08.120 sirlick Um where a number of US nuclear warheads are kept. Um, 1:53:08.520 --> 1:53:12.760 so there's a tremendous fear cowardice might be a better 1:53:12.760 --> 1:53:15.160 way to say it, on behalf of politicians in the 1:53:15.240 --> 1:53:19.040 United States and other Western countries to actually engage with 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:22.759 the ethnic cleansings UM and with the human rights abuses 1:53:22.800 --> 1:53:25.639 that the Turkish government, particularly under Air to one has 1:53:26.040 --> 1:53:28.879 has continued. And one of the things that's really frustrating 1:53:28.880 --> 1:53:30.479 about this, you know, if you think about the way 1:53:30.520 --> 1:53:34.400 in which ISIS was discussed by US media, was discussed 1:53:34.439 --> 1:53:38.240 by conservatives by Donald Trump during his campaign, you know, 1:53:38.360 --> 1:53:41.960 it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well, a huge chunk of 1:53:42.040 --> 1:53:45.400 the support for for ISIS and in fact, even logistics 1:53:45.479 --> 1:53:49.640 for some of their fighters came allegedly courtesy of the 1:53:49.680 --> 1:53:52.160 Turkish state. And there's some evidence for this. There's certainly 1:53:52.200 --> 1:53:55.760 evidence of support for wounded fighters and kind of a 1:53:56.439 --> 1:53:58.840 a lax policy that allowed a lot of people to 1:53:59.040 --> 1:54:02.880 come through Turkey and get into Northeast Syria to fight UM. 1:54:03.439 --> 1:54:07.439 And you know, as you noted earlier thirteen thousand, somewhere 1:54:07.439 --> 1:54:11.240 around there fighters men and women UM in the YPG 1:54:11.439 --> 1:54:15.760 and J died fighting ISIS in you know, UM, and 1:54:15.920 --> 1:54:19.320 we're you know, not just fighting ISIS kind of with 1:54:19.400 --> 1:54:21.479 the backing of the United States, but prior to getting 1:54:21.520 --> 1:54:24.200 any support. One of the most important things they did. 1:54:24.800 --> 1:54:27.599 The while ISIS was on the move in Iraq as 1:54:27.640 --> 1:54:31.040 well as Syria, they were carrying out an active ethnic cleansing, 1:54:31.120 --> 1:54:34.080 a genocidal operation in Mount Sinjar against the z ds 1:54:34.640 --> 1:54:38.240 UM and that was only really stopped because while they 1:54:38.280 --> 1:54:41.280 were fighting a defensive war in northeast Syria, the YPG 1:54:41.880 --> 1:54:46.160 sent fighters into Iraq to stop the genocide UM and 1:54:46.200 --> 1:54:48.320 they were successful in this. You know you talked to IS. 1:54:48.400 --> 1:54:51.400 I have a lot of y ZD survivors of the genocide, 1:54:51.400 --> 1:54:53.120 and I'll say the only reason we got out is 1:54:53.200 --> 1:54:57.440 because of you know, the YPG, UM and the PKK 1:54:58.280 --> 1:55:00.680 and the well and that is the it is. It is, 1:55:00.920 --> 1:55:03.080 so we should we could talk a little bit about 1:55:03.080 --> 1:55:06.000 the p k K. They are the the y PG 1:55:06.160 --> 1:55:08.200 and J and the SDF, which is kind of the 1:55:08.280 --> 1:55:11.560 umbrella organization, are not recognized as terrorist organizations by the 1:55:11.680 --> 1:55:15.120 United States or by most Western democracies. The p k 1:55:15.360 --> 1:55:20.120 K is recognized as a terrorist organization Turkeys. Allegations would 1:55:20.120 --> 1:55:22.600 be that the y PG and J and and other 1:55:22.840 --> 1:55:27.400 you know militias are just p KK affiliates UM. The 1:55:27.520 --> 1:55:29.520 reality is that they are in quite a fact, quite 1:55:29.560 --> 1:55:33.640 closely tied um Uh and you will, you know, but 1:55:33.800 --> 1:55:35.840 also there it's not the exact like when you're in 1:55:36.000 --> 1:55:39.840 Rajaba and you encounter people who are p KK, people 1:55:39.880 --> 1:55:42.840 will speak about them differently than they will talk about 1:55:42.960 --> 1:55:45.040 other people who are kind of you know, that they're 1:55:45.080 --> 1:55:46.920 the folks from the mountains is the term that I 1:55:47.160 --> 1:55:50.760 here use the most. But the thing is, see, here's 1:55:50.840 --> 1:55:54.840 the problem. The problem is that that whatever the p 1:55:55.040 --> 1:55:59.880 k K is, history is and has been and where 1:56:00.200 --> 1:56:02.520 more than we can get into, the p k K 1:56:03.240 --> 1:56:07.760 made a dramatic shift in its ideology and has done 1:56:07.920 --> 1:56:13.600 everything possible to try to restart peace negotiations with Turkey. 1:56:13.920 --> 1:56:16.360 So first of all, you know, there are several as 1:56:16.440 --> 1:56:19.960 Megan mentioned before, there was a peace initiative that went 1:56:20.040 --> 1:56:23.400 on for a few years that then everyone decided wasn't 1:56:23.680 --> 1:56:26.680 um you know, beneficial to him, so he stopped it. 1:56:27.080 --> 1:56:29.800 But the p KK, and as recently as I think 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:32.280 a year or two ago, the leader of the p 1:56:32.440 --> 1:56:35.720 KK in the Mountains, right Najamil Bayek, wrote an op 1:56:35.880 --> 1:56:39.800 ed for the Washington Post saying, we want to have talks, 1:56:39.880 --> 1:56:42.839 we want to have reconciliation with Turkey. We're not asking 1:56:42.960 --> 1:56:45.880 for a separate Cornish state. All we want is some 1:56:46.080 --> 1:56:49.720 degree of autonomy. And and uh, you know, and and 1:56:50.040 --> 1:56:54.040 it's actually to the enduring shame of the Western media, 1:56:54.120 --> 1:56:56.840 including the New York Times, that they continue to talk 1:56:56.880 --> 1:57:00.160 about them as a separatist organization. But that's an other 1:57:00.240 --> 1:57:07.040 story as well. The fact is that these um ideologies 1:57:07.240 --> 1:57:10.480 that they both subscribe to p k K and the 1:57:10.640 --> 1:57:14.200 YPG YPG, regardless of whether to what extent they may 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:20.760 be related, the political ideology is an ideology about direct democracy. 1:57:20.840 --> 1:57:24.840 It's about empowering people at the local level. It's about 1:57:25.000 --> 1:57:28.600 making sure that every adult and also the youth have 1:57:28.800 --> 1:57:33.880 a say in their communities. And it's as grassroots democratic 1:57:34.000 --> 1:57:37.960 as anything that you could ever imagine. And so really, 1:57:38.400 --> 1:57:41.360 you would think that the United States, you know, would 1:57:41.520 --> 1:57:45.000 understand that there's certainly no threat that the neither the 1:57:45.680 --> 1:57:50.400 YPG nor the YPGJ has ever shown any aggression towards Turkey, 1:57:50.480 --> 1:57:52.400 which is what makes this idea of a buff the 1:57:52.480 --> 1:57:54.840 idea that they need a buffers own kind of a joke, 1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:59.840 you know. So really it's it's an ideological shift that's 1:58:00.000 --> 1:58:04.160 so profound and so empowering to local people that it's 1:58:04.200 --> 1:58:06.960 also something that frankly, those of us who are on 1:58:07.080 --> 1:58:10.120 the left should be much more supportive of, I think, 1:58:10.200 --> 1:58:14.360 than than people have been so far. Yeah, I mean 1:58:14.440 --> 1:58:17.400 the thing that is most remarkable because I spent a lot, 1:58:17.440 --> 1:58:20.240 I spent more time, certainly in Iraq than in Syria. 1:58:20.360 --> 1:58:23.560 And we should note here that we're talking about Syria 1:58:23.600 --> 1:58:28.800 today and we're talking about Rojava. Turkish aggression against particularly UM, 1:58:29.440 --> 1:58:31.680 against the p k K, but against you know, Kurd's 1:58:31.840 --> 1:58:35.040 kind of in an ethnic sense, UM extends beyond Syria. 1:58:35.400 --> 1:58:39.200 Turkey has illegally attacked Iraq and in fact moved troops 1:58:39.280 --> 1:58:43.080 into Iraqi soil a number of times, escalating within the 1:58:43.200 --> 1:58:45.600 last year, and killed a substantial number of people in 1:58:45.720 --> 1:58:49.880 the in the Kurdish regional government territories. UM. So that 1:58:50.080 --> 1:58:53.680 is also occurring here. Although it's it's worth noting again 1:58:53.760 --> 1:58:56.120 because people mix this up a lot, what's happening in 1:58:56.200 --> 1:58:59.280 Kurdish control Iraq is profoundly different from what's happening in 1:58:59.400 --> 1:59:03.800 Rojava and the extremely different political organization. Yeah, I think 1:59:03.800 --> 1:59:06.880 it's also worth mentioning that it's not just UM. Curtish 1:59:06.920 --> 1:59:10.520 groups have been attacking in a rock There's been a 1:59:10.600 --> 1:59:15.360 bunch of attacks like after these Yeah, it's killed a 1:59:15.400 --> 1:59:18.040 bunch of those people too. It is the yeah, they're 1:59:18.080 --> 1:59:22.600 they're doing the genocide again. Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's UM, 1:59:24.920 --> 1:59:28.600 it's interesting, you know, I uh, it's also kind of worth. 1:59:28.920 --> 1:59:31.360 The thing that was perhaps most surprising to me there 1:59:31.400 --> 1:59:34.200 was the degree to which people I would meet who 1:59:34.240 --> 1:59:36.720 were just like in many cases just like kind of 1:59:36.960 --> 1:59:39.560 you know, terrorism police assays guys, or people who are 1:59:39.600 --> 1:59:43.000 like working traffic checkpoints, are working in the farms. There 1:59:43.040 --> 1:59:45.800 were people were really careful to not refer or talk 1:59:45.920 --> 1:59:48.920 to like what the project was as a state. And 1:59:49.000 --> 1:59:50.920 it's it's not on a state a state, it's an 1:59:50.960 --> 1:59:52.960 autonomous region. That's one of the terms I heard the 1:59:53.000 --> 1:59:56.440 most is the autonomous regions, which is is really interesting 1:59:56.520 --> 1:59:58.400 to me. And it's it's hard. It's something certainly like 1:59:58.520 --> 2:00:02.560 mainstream media writing about it. UM seems to have trouble grasping, 2:00:02.720 --> 2:00:05.920 as you say, And it's it's interesting because obviously, Debbie 2:00:05.920 --> 2:00:07.600 and case folks haven't put it together. You are the 2:00:07.720 --> 2:00:11.200 daughter of Marie book Chin, who is the UM, who 2:00:11.280 --> 2:00:15.680 is the political philosopher whose ideas formed a significant like 2:00:15.880 --> 2:00:19.080 core of of sort of what the organizational structure in 2:00:19.360 --> 2:00:23.160 Roja is UM. Well, I just want to say, first 2:00:23.200 --> 2:00:25.400 of all, thank you for that. I also just want 2:00:25.440 --> 2:00:28.320 to say that I really want to remind everybody that, 2:00:28.440 --> 2:00:32.960 of course, you know, Abdullah Chellan read hundreds and hundreds 2:00:33.000 --> 2:00:36.000 of books, not just my dad's, so I mean, I 2:00:36.040 --> 2:00:38.800 appreciate that, but you know they have he has really 2:00:39.000 --> 2:00:44.160 especially placed emphasis on the need for any revolutionary project 2:00:44.280 --> 2:00:47.160 to have the liberation of women at its core. My 2:00:47.280 --> 2:00:51.280 dad talked a lot about hierarchy and patriarchy, but Allan, 2:00:51.760 --> 2:00:56.800 by making women central, has really done something unique, I think, 2:00:56.960 --> 2:00:59.800 you know, in in the history of because in the 2:01:00.040 --> 2:01:04.400 history of sort of revolutionary movements, because as many women 2:01:04.640 --> 2:01:07.760 who have participated in those movements in the past can 2:01:07.840 --> 2:01:10.360 tell you, it was always sure, fight with us and 2:01:10.440 --> 2:01:13.360 we'll deal with the women's issue when the revolution is over. 2:01:13.880 --> 2:01:16.440 And a Gelant turned that upside down, you know, and 2:01:16.520 --> 2:01:20.200 he said it's got to be a women's revolution at all. 2:01:20.440 --> 2:01:23.440 And the women in those movements over there really fought 2:01:23.520 --> 2:01:26.280 for that themselves to UM. And one of the things 2:01:26.360 --> 2:01:28.360 that you know, it was most interesting for me to see, 2:01:28.720 --> 2:01:31.880 UM was when I would go into meetings there with 2:01:32.000 --> 2:01:34.600 women in all kinds of different you know, military and 2:01:34.680 --> 2:01:38.320 civilian institutions and different cities across the region that before 2:01:38.400 --> 2:01:41.360 I would even bring it up as a researcher, you know, 2:01:41.480 --> 2:01:43.720 women would say to me that if it weren't for 2:01:43.920 --> 2:01:47.880 A Gelan's theories, we wouldn't have the organizations that we had, 2:01:48.080 --> 2:01:51.480 we wouldn't have the political power that we have. And 2:01:51.560 --> 2:01:55.240 they have this incredible articulation of how they use these ideas, 2:01:55.440 --> 2:01:58.560 you know, as inspiration for their own work and also 2:01:58.800 --> 2:02:02.680 as almost clitical cover to do kinds of things that 2:02:03.640 --> 2:02:06.360 wouldn't be accepted in other places because they can go 2:02:06.760 --> 2:02:09.360 to men who they work with, who might be suspicious, 2:02:09.560 --> 2:02:12.680 but who you know, have this public stated claim to 2:02:12.760 --> 2:02:16.640 this ideology, and they can say, well, Gelon's books say 2:02:17.160 --> 2:02:20.160 that society can never be free without women's liberation, that 2:02:20.280 --> 2:02:23.600 women's can have their own separate institutions. So they've been 2:02:23.640 --> 2:02:28.800 able to really take these ideas and expand on them 2:02:29.080 --> 2:02:31.520 and you know, push them and use them with their 2:02:31.560 --> 2:02:34.600 own practice. UM and the way that the ideas came 2:02:34.600 --> 2:02:38.440 about themselves. One book that I would recommend anyone interested 2:02:38.560 --> 2:02:43.320 in the Kurdish movement UM in Revolutionary Women's movements anywhere 2:02:43.320 --> 2:02:45.880 in the world, and really any topic related to any 2:02:45.960 --> 2:02:50.919 of this to read is UM, the autobiography of Sekina Johnson's, 2:02:51.120 --> 2:02:54.440 who was the only woman present for the founding of 2:02:54.520 --> 2:02:59.240 the PKK and was really instrumental in organizing both the 2:02:59.400 --> 2:03:02.400 armed and so billion sides of the Kurdish women's movement 2:03:02.480 --> 2:03:06.040 in Turkey. UM. There are pictures of her everywhere in Syria. 2:03:06.360 --> 2:03:10.280 She was assassinated in France in two thousand thirteen by 2:03:10.480 --> 2:03:15.080 Turkish nationalists affiliated with the state, likely suspected, you know, 2:03:15.240 --> 2:03:18.240 hoping to disrupt the peace negotiations that were ongoing at 2:03:18.280 --> 2:03:21.920 that time. But she's remembered everywhere in northeast Syria for 2:03:22.120 --> 2:03:24.400 her role, and you can see in her book her 2:03:24.440 --> 2:03:28.080 talking about seeing the inequalities that, as Debbie mentioned, women 2:03:28.240 --> 2:03:32.640 in socialist movements and revolutionary movements often faced where they 2:03:32.680 --> 2:03:35.880 were asked to, you know, be as committed to this 2:03:35.960 --> 2:03:39.160 struggle as their male comrades were, but we're still treated 2:03:39.560 --> 2:03:42.400 in very patriarchal ways by men that they worked with 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:47.200 because of, you know, the patriarchy inbedded into these societies. 2:03:47.880 --> 2:03:51.879 And you see her talking about organizing women to overcome 2:03:51.960 --> 2:03:54.720 this um and when you look at the history of 2:03:54.800 --> 2:03:57.640 the Kurdish movement moving into what you see in Northeast 2:03:57.680 --> 2:04:00.920 Syria as well. You know, women were really able to 2:04:01.800 --> 2:04:04.360 do so much in practice that the theory had to 2:04:04.480 --> 2:04:06.880 move to catch up to them, and then to take 2:04:06.960 --> 2:04:10.160 this new incredible theory of you know, women's oppression being 2:04:10.200 --> 2:04:13.000 the basis of all oppression, UM and the form of 2:04:13.040 --> 2:04:16.320 oppression that you know, must be addressed to free all 2:04:16.440 --> 2:04:18.960 members of society in all ways. You know, they took 2:04:19.080 --> 2:04:23.200 this and they continued to expand it so in a 2:04:23.320 --> 2:04:25.560 very difficult place in context to do so. I mean 2:04:25.640 --> 2:04:29.640 we know that in more UM, there's more violence against women, 2:04:29.680 --> 2:04:33.280 there's more discrimination, there's more emphasis on traditional gender roles. 2:04:33.400 --> 2:04:36.720 That this holds true across different societies and different conflicts. 2:04:37.400 --> 2:04:40.880 So they have, UM that they face many challenges. They're 2:04:40.960 --> 2:04:43.240 up against a lot here, certainly, you know, with all 2:04:43.320 --> 2:04:47.320 the problems UM that they're facing in Northeast Syria because 2:04:47.400 --> 2:04:50.600 of conflict and poverty, UM, everything that Turkey is doing 2:04:50.680 --> 2:04:53.760 that we've discussed. So they're up against a lot and 2:04:54.160 --> 2:04:57.240 it's not easy. But they've really you know, they've come 2:04:57.280 --> 2:05:02.200 incredibly far UM and seeing how you know, they've taken 2:05:03.360 --> 2:05:06.840 very high level theoretical ideas and then done so much 2:05:06.880 --> 2:05:10.120 in practice, and how their practice and theory from each other. 2:05:10.400 --> 2:05:12.280 Um is really one of the most incredible things to 2:05:12.360 --> 2:05:15.839 see over there. Um. And it's another reason why Turkey 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:18.880 wants to destroy them, because arid Land does not believe 2:05:18.960 --> 2:05:21.120 that women can be equal to men. Um. He does 2:05:21.160 --> 2:05:25.360 not see male violence against women as a problem. And yeah, 2:05:25.400 --> 2:05:28.960 you know, as we've discussed, Turkey and the Kurdish movement 2:05:29.040 --> 2:05:31.720 couldn't be any more different on this question. No, And 2:05:31.800 --> 2:05:35.120 it's UM, I think the thing because you know, going 2:05:35.200 --> 2:05:37.960 over there, I went with THEE as a journalist, where 2:05:38.000 --> 2:05:40.400 like I had heard all these things and and Rojava 2:05:40.480 --> 2:05:42.840 has kind of become among some chunks of the left, 2:05:42.920 --> 2:05:45.720 chunks of the left to cause celeb in part because 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:49.720 of you know, the achievements of the revolution in that space, 2:05:49.800 --> 2:05:52.720 and I wanted to see how legitimate is it? And Um, 2:05:53.000 --> 2:05:54.720 part of why you know I kind of went in 2:05:54.800 --> 2:05:56.800 with that attitude is that I had spent so much 2:05:56.880 --> 2:05:59.120 time in the Kurdish regions of Iraq and if if 2:05:59.160 --> 2:06:02.440 you remember when the fighting against ISIS was at its height, 2:06:02.520 --> 2:06:05.160 there was a tremendous amount of coverage of the female 2:06:05.240 --> 2:06:07.800 Peshmerga and the fact that you know, the Kurds in 2:06:07.880 --> 2:06:10.480 northern Iraq, who were the first force in Iraq that 2:06:11.040 --> 2:06:14.600 collapsed the least when ISIS was on the advance. Um, 2:06:14.720 --> 2:06:17.839 it's overstated how well they did. That's why the YPG 2:06:18.040 --> 2:06:20.160 needed to rescue the z e s At sinjar Is. 2:06:20.240 --> 2:06:23.920 The Kurdish military in northern Iraq just kind of bounced 2:06:23.960 --> 2:06:26.520 at that point. But um, you know I had heard 2:06:26.520 --> 2:06:30.040 about you know these that that this woman's right situation 2:06:30.160 --> 2:06:33.280 is great in northern Iraq. It's very egalitarian. There's women fighters, 2:06:33.640 --> 2:06:36.320 and it is it's certainly and anyone who lives there 2:06:36.320 --> 2:06:39.600 will tell you much safer and easier to be a woman. 2:06:39.680 --> 2:06:43.720 In the KRG, the Kurdish region like control Kurdish Regional 2:06:43.800 --> 2:06:46.560 Government parts of Iraq than it is further south in 2:06:46.600 --> 2:06:50.040 the country. But that doesn't mean it's it's good. It 2:06:50.240 --> 2:06:53.280 is it is more like certain things. There's somewhat more tolerated, 2:06:53.720 --> 2:06:57.160 there's more freedom, but it's still a very traditionalist society. 2:06:57.680 --> 2:07:01.360 And for example, I didn't see any al Peshmerga. Um, 2:07:01.640 --> 2:07:03.920 they did not make much of a presence on the ground, 2:07:03.960 --> 2:07:07.600 and and there their their involvement in the fighting was 2:07:07.680 --> 2:07:11.600 exaggerated somewhat as part of a conscious pr strategy. Um, 2:07:11.920 --> 2:07:16.280 as soon as you cross in to northeast Syria, you 2:07:16.360 --> 2:07:19.520 see women manning and running checkpoints stations you see as 2:07:19.560 --> 2:07:22.040 you go in because they're like you know, they like 2:07:22.160 --> 2:07:24.440 you get like passport and stuff like looked at and 2:07:24.520 --> 2:07:26.560 you get like stamps and whatnot. When you kind of 2:07:26.600 --> 2:07:29.720 come into the to the region, UM, you see a 2:07:29.800 --> 2:07:32.040 lot of women like running that part of the operation. 2:07:32.160 --> 2:07:35.680 You go in to the actual country itself and there's 2:07:35.760 --> 2:07:39.600 we we visited a restaurant that was run by a 2:07:39.720 --> 2:07:42.120 collective of women who had all lost husbands in the fighting. 2:07:42.160 --> 2:07:44.120 We ran. We went to a farm that was all 2:07:44.200 --> 2:07:47.280 young women who had left their families who were very 2:07:47.360 --> 2:07:50.560 traditionalist in their religious attitude. Um, and and go on 2:07:50.680 --> 2:07:54.280 independent and of course you see um female military units 2:07:54.320 --> 2:07:56.720 and female we saw mixed male and female like military 2:07:56.760 --> 2:07:59.320 policing units and stuff. And it's it's one of those 2:07:59.400 --> 2:08:02.400 things that if who are going there kind of with 2:08:02.480 --> 2:08:04.760 a critical eye to try and see how extensive the 2:08:04.800 --> 2:08:07.760 revolution can be, I can't imagine not being convinced of 2:08:07.840 --> 2:08:10.760 the reality of it, because it's it's just so stark 2:08:11.720 --> 2:08:15.400 well also Robert. You know, first of all, just to again, 2:08:15.520 --> 2:08:18.360 you could say a lot about what's going on in 2:08:19.560 --> 2:08:23.560 Iraqi Kurdistan, but just to very quickly sum it up. 2:08:23.640 --> 2:08:26.920 I mean, it is a capitalist petrol state run by 2:08:27.000 --> 2:08:32.240 a plan the Barzanies, you know who who a crew 2:08:32.440 --> 2:08:35.560 basically all the wealth to themselves. And you can't even 2:08:35.680 --> 2:08:38.640 begin to compare it with with the kind of revolutionary 2:08:38.720 --> 2:08:41.560 project in Syria. So I mean, I just want to 2:08:41.760 --> 2:08:45.520 in case so people understand. I mean, I don't want 2:08:45.520 --> 2:08:47.920 to use I hate to use the word socialist because 2:08:48.000 --> 2:08:50.600 it's such a it's so fraught, but you could the 2:08:50.720 --> 2:08:53.160 closest thing, you know, it's a it's built on a 2:08:53.240 --> 2:08:56.760 socialist economic model, except a better one, well more like 2:08:57.000 --> 2:09:00.280 what my father and what Abdullah Shelan have an mind, 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:04.320 which my father called communalism, and this democratic confederalist model 2:09:04.640 --> 2:09:07.920 is based on cooperatives, you know, where people really do 2:09:08.760 --> 2:09:11.720 um have the means control the means of production as 2:09:11.840 --> 2:09:14.600 much as possible. I mean, it's obviously all you know, 2:09:14.760 --> 2:09:19.040 still in formation, it's still growing, and it's like the 2:09:19.240 --> 2:09:23.000 energy sector where things that you know are less like that. 2:09:23.160 --> 2:09:27.680 But are I hope in that direction. Yeah, I mean, 2:09:27.760 --> 2:09:30.480 obviously no, this is certainly not some kind of perfect 2:09:30.600 --> 2:09:33.600 utopian in the middle of a war zone. But but 2:09:33.800 --> 2:09:36.000 as you pointed out, what you see when you go 2:09:36.200 --> 2:09:39.040 there is women so active in every aspect. I would 2:09:39.080 --> 2:09:41.960 add to to what the great examples you gave the 2:09:42.040 --> 2:09:47.840 women's houses to talk about that right where they are 2:09:47.960 --> 2:09:52.160 literally resolving so many problems for both men and women, 2:09:52.280 --> 2:09:55.080 you know, at the community level, and and so it's 2:09:55.320 --> 2:10:00.080 it's really quite an extraordinary you know. I guess what 2:10:00.200 --> 2:10:02.720 I want to say about it is that like if 2:10:02.920 --> 2:10:05.560 if we all got on board of you know, one 2:10:05.640 --> 2:10:12.000 of that that Cretan elon Musk spaceships and found a 2:10:12.200 --> 2:10:15.360 colony you know where they were doing this, we'd be 2:10:15.600 --> 2:10:18.120 cherishing it. We'd be going, oh my god. You know, 2:10:18.320 --> 2:10:21.160 look at these people. They're like they have a cooperative 2:10:21.200 --> 2:10:25.480 economy and they have women's councils at every level. Wow, 2:10:25.720 --> 2:10:29.000 men can't overrule women on a decision that comes to 2:10:29.120 --> 2:10:32.600 say women's bodies. Think here the Dobbs decision right on 2:10:32.680 --> 2:10:37.160 the Supreme Court. Women only women can can decide those 2:10:37.240 --> 2:10:40.040 issues that are related to women. And there there are 2:10:40.120 --> 2:10:43.040 councils at every level and people sending delegates, you know, 2:10:43.240 --> 2:10:47.120 meeting in their little villages and towns and communities and 2:10:47.200 --> 2:10:50.280 electing delegates to the next level. It is a true 2:10:50.440 --> 2:10:55.240 grassroots democracy, and it's ecological, and it's feminist. It's like 2:10:55.400 --> 2:10:58.440 if Ursula La Gwyn we're writing about it and the disgust, 2:10:58.520 --> 2:11:02.080 we'd all be going wow. So so really, you know, 2:11:02.360 --> 2:11:06.520 it's something that I think, especially anybody who considers themselves 2:11:06.600 --> 2:11:10.600 a feminist, you know, should be supporting. And and certainly, 2:11:10.760 --> 2:11:13.160 and I hope all of us do, you know, And 2:11:13.520 --> 2:11:16.800 and certainly anybody you know, I would think who's an anarchist. 2:11:16.880 --> 2:11:20.440 To me, it's pretty close to an every anarchist's dream, 2:11:20.680 --> 2:11:24.280 you know. And and so I think I just wanted 2:11:24.320 --> 2:11:27.120 to make that contrast with Iraq because I think it's 2:11:27.160 --> 2:11:31.720 really important. Really goes to why the Kurdish project really 2:11:32.280 --> 2:11:37.240 needs very badly the support of people in the United States, 2:11:37.360 --> 2:11:40.440 because in so many ways, the United States kind of 2:11:40.520 --> 2:11:43.840 calls the shots about what can and cannot happen over 2:11:43.960 --> 2:11:47.160 there if you look at the problems they have, you know, 2:11:47.360 --> 2:11:49.760 to all of that, because of course, all of these 2:11:49.800 --> 2:11:53.200 places are not perfect, and have you know, these serious 2:11:53.280 --> 2:11:57.760 issues alongside these serious achievements. Every issue that they have 2:11:58.240 --> 2:12:01.120 is an issue that any society would have if that 2:12:01.320 --> 2:12:05.240 society had been through ten years of war. Um, we're 2:12:05.280 --> 2:12:09.400 impoverished and blockaded from virtually all economic activity with the 2:12:09.480 --> 2:12:13.240 outside world, if they had had to not only you know, 2:12:13.400 --> 2:12:16.400 fight the occupation of a group like ISIS, but then 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:19.760 immediately turn around to fight a state army much larger 2:12:19.840 --> 2:12:23.280 than them, you know, bent on taking and occupying their territory. 2:12:23.400 --> 2:12:26.680 A society where people fear going outside because they don't 2:12:26.760 --> 2:12:28.960 know if they'll be in the wrong place at the 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:32.200 wrong time when they'll be a drone strike on a 2:12:32.280 --> 2:12:35.200 local military leader going around doing their job keeping their 2:12:35.200 --> 2:12:38.880 communities safe from ISIS, or a local political leader going 2:12:38.920 --> 2:12:41.400 around doing their job trying to you know, build this 2:12:41.560 --> 2:12:45.320 new system. So I think when we look at the flaws, 2:12:46.000 --> 2:12:50.160 their flaws that are the result of in large part 2:12:50.880 --> 2:12:55.480 poverty and conflict and all of the compounding crisis crises 2:12:55.720 --> 2:12:59.000 that the people of North Anyst Syria have to face 2:12:59.160 --> 2:13:01.440 because of what they have gone through, you know, as 2:13:01.520 --> 2:13:05.200 Debbie mentioned, much at the hands of larger powers. So 2:13:05.360 --> 2:13:08.400 much of what happens in Syria is up to what 2:13:08.600 --> 2:13:11.440 the United States wants up to what Russia wants, up 2:13:11.480 --> 2:13:16.080 to what Turkey wants. Um, all of these countries and regions, 2:13:16.160 --> 2:13:19.360 you know, with different priorities, different outlooks, but it somehow 2:13:19.400 --> 2:13:21.120 happens that at the end of the day, you know, 2:13:21.200 --> 2:13:23.840 the one thing they can all agree on is that, UM, 2:13:24.920 --> 2:13:29.400 it's okay to sell out the autonomous administration, It's okay 2:13:29.440 --> 2:13:31.600 to have consequences for them. You know, if the Courtish 2:13:31.640 --> 2:13:35.320 people suffer, the zd people suffer, the people of northern 2:13:35.360 --> 2:13:38.000 East Syria, all of these different demographics, if they're the 2:13:38.080 --> 2:13:41.080 people who are victimized, you know, because they don't have 2:13:41.160 --> 2:13:44.120 a state, because they're fighting for something different, because they're 2:13:44.200 --> 2:13:47.040 challenging the status quo, it's okay if they're the ones 2:13:47.120 --> 2:13:49.560 who faced the consequences. We saw this, you know, with 2:13:49.680 --> 2:13:52.480 what happened with Isis. We saw this with the complete 2:13:52.520 --> 2:13:55.720 international silence when a fren was invaded, with the you know, 2:13:56.040 --> 2:13:59.800 piecemeal response that stopped the Turkish invasion in twenty nineteen, 2:14:00.440 --> 2:14:02.200 but allow them to convert what they were doing to 2:14:02.280 --> 2:14:04.520 this kind of low intensity war, um, you know, with 2:14:04.600 --> 2:14:08.480 a terrible ceasefire, you know, with undefined lines, and with 2:14:08.640 --> 2:14:11.920 these drone strikes being allowed in areas where Russia and 2:14:12.040 --> 2:14:14.480 the United States, both of which have agreements with Turkey 2:14:14.600 --> 2:14:17.920 are active, um, you know, and both of whom tolerate this. 2:14:18.320 --> 2:14:24.120 So essentially every powerful interest in Syria can agree on, 2:14:25.280 --> 2:14:28.680 you know, ensuring that the autonomous administration comes in last. 2:14:29.080 --> 2:14:31.840 And as people in the US, you know, anyone who 2:14:31.920 --> 2:14:35.680 considers themselves on the left, who considers themselves a feminist, 2:14:35.760 --> 2:14:40.000 who cares about persecuted ethnic and religious minorities, who opposes 2:14:40.160 --> 2:14:43.800 endless war and militarist foreign policy that props up autocrats 2:14:44.000 --> 2:14:47.280 and you know, props up far right regimes. Anyone with 2:14:47.360 --> 2:14:50.120 any of those values should be very concerned about the 2:14:50.160 --> 2:14:52.640 situation in Northeast Syria right now and should be looking 2:14:52.680 --> 2:14:55.480 at what we can do to UH, to get our 2:14:55.520 --> 2:14:59.800 government to stop supporting some of these very harmful policies 2:15:00.000 --> 2:15:02.080 against the region, you know, even while it claims to 2:15:02.200 --> 2:15:07.800 be supporting their fight against isis. What can people listening here, 2:15:08.240 --> 2:15:10.640 presumably most of you are in the United States or 2:15:10.720 --> 2:15:15.120 Canada or Western Europe. What can people listening here, particularly 2:15:15.160 --> 2:15:19.200 in the US, do they have an impact to help? Well, 2:15:19.440 --> 2:15:21.680 we could talk about that, Um, we could have an 2:15:21.840 --> 2:15:24.320 entire other podcast episode on that because there's a lot 2:15:24.440 --> 2:15:26.640 to be done. But you know, to summarize in a 2:15:26.720 --> 2:15:31.000 few words, the way that the United States supports Turkey's 2:15:31.080 --> 2:15:34.360 war on the Kurdish people, all the peoples of the 2:15:34.440 --> 2:15:39.680 region and the Kurdish National Liberation movement is through military 2:15:39.720 --> 2:15:44.600 cooperation and support, through diplomatic cooperation and support, intelligence sharing, 2:15:44.760 --> 2:15:49.920 and these pro war legal pretexts. So go tell Congress 2:15:50.040 --> 2:15:53.960 that you don't want them to send weapons to Turkey. 2:15:54.040 --> 2:15:56.480 There's an EP six team sale right now that um, 2:15:57.000 --> 2:15:59.920 it was really great to see the majority of Congress, 2:16:00.120 --> 2:16:04.800 including all of the squad members, people like AOHC. Rashida Talai, 2:16:04.920 --> 2:16:10.360 Bilhan Omar all opposed that sale. So opposing armed sales 2:16:10.640 --> 2:16:14.120 very important something that there's momentum there for um and 2:16:14.200 --> 2:16:17.680 that there's momentum among progressives therefore, which is very heartening. 2:16:18.200 --> 2:16:22.760 Opposing military aid and security assistance to Turkey. You know, 2:16:22.880 --> 2:16:25.840 I've done research on this. U S security assistance has 2:16:25.920 --> 2:16:29.560 trained senior Turkish officials, including the country's current defense minister 2:16:30.200 --> 2:16:36.480 and several perpetrators of the violent, repressive nineteen eighty military coup. Obviously, 2:16:36.840 --> 2:16:39.680 we should not be training coup plotters and war criminals 2:16:39.920 --> 2:16:42.040 that is not something I think most people learning this 2:16:42.200 --> 2:16:45.640 want their tax dollars to go to. So calling for 2:16:45.879 --> 2:16:49.600 an end to US security assistance to Turkey very important, 2:16:49.640 --> 2:16:53.880 in addition to ending those arms sales and challenging the 2:16:54.160 --> 2:16:58.960 pro war legal pretexts and designations that allow Turkey to 2:16:59.000 --> 2:17:01.240 get this kind of Western and support. You know, a 2:17:01.320 --> 2:17:03.840 wonderful thing that we saw a couple of weeks back 2:17:04.040 --> 2:17:07.879 was the Democratic Socialists of America, the largest socialist organization 2:17:07.959 --> 2:17:13.080 in the US, saying that they oppose the terror designation 2:17:13.240 --> 2:17:14.840 of the p k K and believe it it should 2:17:14.879 --> 2:17:19.400 be delisted. That's something that progressive support very strongly. In Europe. 2:17:19.520 --> 2:17:23.280 We've seen, you know, calls from places like Ireland and 2:17:23.360 --> 2:17:26.160 South Africa where people know a lot about you know 2:17:26.280 --> 2:17:30.000 what terror designations, and you know, the criminalization of struggles, 2:17:30.200 --> 2:17:33.680 you know, can can have impacts on conflict resolution. You know, 2:17:33.760 --> 2:17:36.920 people who participated in these kinds of post conflict processes 2:17:37.080 --> 2:17:40.240 in some of these places saying get rid of the designation. 2:17:40.320 --> 2:17:42.920 It's harmful for peace. You know, it will be difficult 2:17:43.000 --> 2:17:47.120 to end this less violently without it. So that's something 2:17:47.200 --> 2:17:50.800 where you know, it seems the international case for it 2:17:51.080 --> 2:17:54.160 is something that's rather obvious, and where pressure in the 2:17:54.320 --> 2:17:57.160 US on the US designation to remove it would be 2:17:57.240 --> 2:18:02.160 an important step for facilitating dialogue and a negotiated end 2:18:02.360 --> 2:18:07.760 to this conflict. So understanding how the US supports Turkey's 2:18:07.840 --> 2:18:12.040 wars on the Kurdish people and opposing all of those 2:18:12.240 --> 2:18:15.960 different policies and programs as one of the most important 2:18:16.000 --> 2:18:18.000 things that we can do to say this war is 2:18:18.080 --> 2:18:20.480 not in our name. We stand with the people of 2:18:20.560 --> 2:18:24.360 northeast Syria, with the people in Turkey suffering from Turkish authoritarianism, 2:18:24.879 --> 2:18:28.240 with the people in Iraqi, Kurdistan, uzd S and Shngal 2:18:28.400 --> 2:18:31.600 being bombed by Turkish drones. When we say that we 2:18:31.640 --> 2:18:33.800 don't want to support this war, we stand with all 2:18:33.879 --> 2:18:37.119 of those people. Um And I think that that kind 2:18:37.200 --> 2:18:40.520 of action against arms, sales, security assistance, and pro war 2:18:40.640 --> 2:18:45.000 legal pretexts could be a really great base for solidarity 2:18:45.320 --> 2:18:48.240 opposing endless war in the Middle East and standing up 2:18:48.360 --> 2:18:51.640 for you know, peacefully ending this conflict. Um. And it 2:18:51.640 --> 2:18:55.280 would align us with progressives all around the world, and 2:18:55.440 --> 2:18:59.280 you know, people who really believe in in peace and 2:18:59.480 --> 2:19:02.560 in ending these kinds of things. And and if I 2:19:02.640 --> 2:19:05.880 could just add, you know, one one element to that 2:19:06.440 --> 2:19:12.080 would also be really pressing for a diplomatic solution to 2:19:12.280 --> 2:19:17.440 the whole so called Kurdish question, because Rojeva will remain 2:19:17.640 --> 2:19:21.360 in danger as long as air dewan And and his 2:19:21.760 --> 2:19:26.600 and his party think that they can basically that they 2:19:26.680 --> 2:19:30.080 have to be fighting Kurds because you know, to them, 2:19:30.320 --> 2:19:32.959 as Megan said before, Rojeva is an extension of their 2:19:33.040 --> 2:19:36.440 own Kurds and of the PKK. So what But but 2:19:36.600 --> 2:19:39.200 what really needs to happen, just as as it happened 2:19:39.240 --> 2:19:43.200 in South Africa, is there has to be a negotiated settlement. 2:19:43.600 --> 2:19:45.240 One of the things that would help with this, and 2:19:45.320 --> 2:19:48.280 there are movements that people can get involved with if 2:19:48.360 --> 2:19:51.039 they want, would be freeing a Chilan who has been 2:19:51.080 --> 2:19:53.880 in a sitting in a Turkish jail for the last 2:19:53.920 --> 2:19:56.920 twenty two years because he is sort of the Nelson 2:19:57.040 --> 2:20:00.160 Mandela really of of the Kurdish freedom movement and he 2:20:00.240 --> 2:20:03.879 should be involved in these negotiations and was even while 2:20:03.920 --> 2:20:07.000 he was in jail. But really, you know, a jail 2:20:07.080 --> 2:20:11.440 person can't really do that properly. So pressing for a 2:20:11.600 --> 2:20:18.520 diplomatic solution because basically rat one uses the p K 2:20:18.760 --> 2:20:21.760 k UM and the listing of the PKK as a 2:20:21.840 --> 2:20:27.680 terrorist organization to basically kill all Kurds everywhere. And in 2:20:27.879 --> 2:20:30.560 order to stop that, somehow there has to be a 2:20:30.720 --> 2:20:34.240 break in this. And so I think that, you know, people, 2:20:34.480 --> 2:20:38.040 there are certainly plenty of peace organizations and people who 2:20:38.080 --> 2:20:40.240 want to work on peace, and I think this is 2:20:40.320 --> 2:20:44.280 a really important demand that they begin that the United 2:20:44.320 --> 2:20:47.520 States and the United States has nothing to lose by 2:20:47.600 --> 2:20:51.320 pressuring Turkey to engage in negotiations with the p k K. 2:20:51.760 --> 2:20:54.160 This is an hour war. The p KK has never 2:20:54.240 --> 2:20:57.160 done anything to the United States. It would make, as 2:20:57.240 --> 2:21:00.240 Megan said, for a lasting peace in the entire or 2:21:00.320 --> 2:21:03.320 Middle East, and would you know, And and so what 2:21:03.480 --> 2:21:07.000 I would say is, first of all, folks, would be 2:21:07.120 --> 2:21:10.320 great if people who want more information about any of 2:21:10.400 --> 2:21:14.640 this could contact the organization that I helped co found, 2:21:15.160 --> 2:21:19.359 the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, which is at Defend Rojeva 2:21:19.440 --> 2:21:23.879 dot org. And we have scripts to call congress Person's 2:21:24.040 --> 2:21:27.800 resources and we even have fun monthly meetings that people 2:21:27.920 --> 2:21:30.800 can come to. Um you know, and there's of course 2:21:30.840 --> 2:21:35.040 a lot of information at Megan's website also Kurdish Peace 2:21:35.200 --> 2:21:37.960 dot org. But you know, one of the things that 2:21:38.160 --> 2:21:41.879 people could do is go out and talk to their communities, 2:21:41.920 --> 2:21:45.200 whether it's a religious community or a labor union or 2:21:45.240 --> 2:21:49.560 a food coop or your kids nursery school or reading group, 2:21:49.680 --> 2:21:53.440 women's group, and sort of talk and and help. Because 2:21:53.480 --> 2:21:56.240 there's a lot of people so surprisingly really don't know 2:21:56.560 --> 2:22:00.520 much about Roojeva. I think maybe because there because the 2:22:00.640 --> 2:22:05.160 Zabatistas are a little closer geographically, that that project is 2:22:05.200 --> 2:22:08.520 a bit better known, you know, So talking to people 2:22:08.640 --> 2:22:11.800 and getting people engaged, and for example, if there's anybody 2:22:11.879 --> 2:22:15.560 listening from New Jersey. Bob Menendez is the chairman of 2:22:15.640 --> 2:22:19.879 the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and he's been pretty hostile 2:22:19.959 --> 2:22:23.560 towards air to one and and keeping on him with 2:22:23.720 --> 2:22:27.160 phone calls emails is a great way, you know, for 2:22:27.840 --> 2:22:31.800 for our m As somebody who worked in Washington for 2:22:31.840 --> 2:22:34.000 a while when I worked for Bernie Sanders, I know 2:22:34.200 --> 2:22:37.840 that these guys listen to their constituents, you know, and 2:22:37.959 --> 2:22:40.720 if they get enough calls, they start to pay attention 2:22:40.840 --> 2:22:43.760 to those things that they come around. We could even get, 2:22:43.920 --> 2:22:46.920 you know, somebody to send a letter around to their 2:22:47.040 --> 2:22:50.959 colleagues in Congress saying, you know, it's time to start 2:22:51.080 --> 2:22:54.880 peace negotiations. Those kinds of things do have impact because, 2:22:55.160 --> 2:22:58.480 as I said before, unfortunately the United States is really 2:22:58.879 --> 2:23:01.680 at the helm and so many ways of what happens 2:23:01.840 --> 2:23:08.520 internationally in these geopolitical battles. UM. Well, thank you so much, Debbie, 2:23:08.600 --> 2:23:11.480 Thank you so much. Megan. UM. I think that's that's 2:23:11.480 --> 2:23:14.840 going to do it for us today. UM. Please, you know, 2:23:15.000 --> 2:23:18.320 continue paying attention to this. UM. Did you want to 2:23:18.680 --> 2:23:20.480 you know, Megan, did you have anything else you wanted 2:23:20.520 --> 2:23:23.320 to kind of kind of add um or let people 2:23:23.400 --> 2:23:25.840 know actually both of you would let people know where 2:23:25.879 --> 2:23:29.440 they can follow you on the internet. Yeah. Well, I 2:23:29.520 --> 2:23:33.400 mean I think that that about covers it. Look, the 2:23:33.480 --> 2:23:39.160 only solution for peace, democracy and self determination in Turkey 2:23:39.400 --> 2:23:43.080 and in the wider Middle East is a just and democratic, 2:23:43.240 --> 2:23:47.880 negotiated settlement to the Kurdish question. And I think that 2:23:48.160 --> 2:23:52.080 just as Debbie said, learn about what's going on, reach 2:23:52.160 --> 2:23:55.160 out to your communities, talk to your local Kurdish community 2:23:55.240 --> 2:23:58.760 if there is one, find the opportunities that there are 2:23:58.879 --> 2:24:02.160 to engage with people in Turkey, in Syria and all 2:24:02.200 --> 2:24:04.960 of these places, you know, working for peace and standing 2:24:05.040 --> 2:24:08.640 up for these ideas. And then no efforts too small, 2:24:08.879 --> 2:24:13.279 because ending this conflict would benefit everyone in Northeast Syria, 2:24:13.480 --> 2:24:16.040 everyone in Turkey and all of us here, you know, 2:24:16.160 --> 2:24:19.760 knowing that our government was no longer supporting this terrible, 2:24:19.879 --> 2:24:24.320 unjust war. UM, So just get out there and do something. UM. 2:24:25.160 --> 2:24:27.680 To see the work that the think tank where I 2:24:27.800 --> 2:24:31.120 work UM is doing on this issue, you can go 2:24:31.320 --> 2:24:34.600 to Kurdish Peace dot org where we have research and 2:24:34.640 --> 2:24:38.680 analysis on everything related to do related to the Kurdish 2:24:38.720 --> 2:24:43.360 issue from all different perspectives, and you can check out 2:24:43.360 --> 2:24:46.080 our work there UM. And you can follow me on 2:24:46.200 --> 2:24:50.720 Twitter UM Megan Bodette and the Twitter handle is at 2:24:51.480 --> 2:24:57.120 five underscores m j b excellent. My Twitter is simpler. 2:24:57.200 --> 2:25:01.200 It's just Debbi book at the the books and and 2:25:01.840 --> 2:25:04.840 again I just want to say that you know people 2:25:04.920 --> 2:25:09.120 we do at defend Rojeva dot org and we're also 2:25:09.240 --> 2:25:14.199 on Twitter at defend Rojeva. We have so many ideas 2:25:14.320 --> 2:25:17.680 and so much information about how people can get involved. 2:25:17.800 --> 2:25:21.040 Is making said, if nothing else, no more weapons to 2:25:21.160 --> 2:25:27.599 Turkey until they begin peace negotiations, give Rojeva political recognition. 2:25:27.720 --> 2:25:31.440 That would be another thing people can be demanding also 2:25:31.560 --> 2:25:34.120 that Curds have a place at the bargaining table and 2:25:34.200 --> 2:25:37.320 any discussions about the future of Syria. So we have 2:25:37.520 --> 2:25:41.360 all those kinds of ideas, scripts, as I said, model 2:25:41.520 --> 2:25:46.800 emails and more at defend rojeva dot org. Awesome, UM, 2:25:46.959 --> 2:25:50.160 thank you all for for being on and um yeah, 2:25:50.200 --> 2:25:51.840 that's going to do it for us here. It could 2:25:51.879 --> 2:25:55.720 happen here for the day. Thank you for having us. Thanks. 2:26:00.080 --> 2:26:15.120 Ye hi everyone, it's James here, Welcome to It could 2:26:15.120 --> 2:26:18.080 happen here today. It's just me and we're talking again 2:26:18.120 --> 2:26:21.520 about the UC strike. But the audio is not great. 2:26:21.560 --> 2:26:24.240 We had some technical issues on my end, not not 2:26:24.360 --> 2:26:26.680 on Matt's end, but we wanted to put it out 2:26:26.720 --> 2:26:28.320 in one the list because we felt that was very 2:26:28.360 --> 2:26:31.360 important episode and things of developing very rapidly at the 2:26:31.480 --> 2:26:34.520 u S and we thought that a listeners would like it. 2:26:34.600 --> 2:26:36.680 So apologies for the poor quality of the audio. We 2:26:36.840 --> 2:26:39.320 hope you can get through it anyway. All right, So 2:26:40.000 --> 2:26:43.080 I'm talking today with Matthew, a literally the seven seventh 2:26:43.120 --> 2:26:46.800 to PhD candidate in the history department. Matthew, would you 2:26:46.840 --> 2:26:49.200 like to explain a little bit of who you are 2:26:49.320 --> 2:26:52.040 and what you've been doing with reference to the strike 2:26:52.080 --> 2:26:56.560 in the last three weeks and maybe before as well. Yes, 2:26:57.040 --> 2:27:00.760 so I studied Spanish history, like you said, a free empire. 2:27:01.400 --> 2:27:03.840 I've been at u c SC for seven years. UM. 2:27:04.120 --> 2:27:09.200 I do research in Spain for two years during the 2:27:09.280 --> 2:27:12.480 COVID pandemic. So there was sort of great in my 2:27:13.280 --> 2:27:18.160 university of participation between my mind qual of buying exams 2:27:18.680 --> 2:27:21.440 for the three years I was there, UM, and then 2:27:21.480 --> 2:27:22.840 I left. When I came back and i'd go on. 2:27:22.920 --> 2:27:25.800 The campus was was quite different from both from COVID 2:27:25.959 --> 2:27:30.200 and from the increasing economic hardships UM. So in the 2:27:30.320 --> 2:27:35.160 last few year, UH, we involved in UM targeting UM 2:27:35.520 --> 2:27:39.440 trying to buy a new contract UM as I'm sure 2:27:39.440 --> 2:27:43.000 all your listeners are aware by this point. Uh not 2:27:43.160 --> 2:27:45.680 for more than a year, in eighteen months in some 2:27:45.879 --> 2:27:50.080 cases without a successful resolution, and with I know on 2:27:50.240 --> 2:27:54.800 bare labor practices on behalf of the UC administration. I 2:27:54.879 --> 2:27:57.560 saw in November fifteen, I believe it was to day 2:27:57.640 --> 2:28:02.120 we walked out on strength. I had signed up several 2:28:02.240 --> 2:28:05.640 months earlier to be a strike captain for the history department. 2:28:06.320 --> 2:28:09.039 I just assisted by a sort of the informable committee 2:28:09.080 --> 2:28:13.520 of five of the younger equals, sort of due to 2:28:13.600 --> 2:28:16.800 the pandemic of a lot of my colleagues, in my 2:28:17.040 --> 2:28:21.280 codeboord UM and we're not able to go do their research, 2:28:21.920 --> 2:28:25.120 so they're generally out of the country right now doing 2:28:25.160 --> 2:28:28.320 their field research. So we have a really great department 2:28:28.480 --> 2:28:33.720 of primarily first through third years that are participating UM 2:28:33.840 --> 2:28:37.320 and and leading younger. I also had signed up to 2:28:37.440 --> 2:28:41.480 be a ticket uh a ticket leader UM kind boiled 2:28:41.520 --> 2:28:44.680 down today. What I have been really occupying myself and 2:28:45.400 --> 2:28:49.320 saying has been uh being a food captain. So we 2:28:49.400 --> 2:28:52.400 have been cooking for about a hundred fifty people at 2:28:52.600 --> 2:28:56.080 our location on campus. UM. We've been getting lots of 2:28:56.360 --> 2:29:01.400 great donations UM food and nash and even real dusting 2:29:01.440 --> 2:29:07.400 that to feed hundred picketers. That's really cool. Yeah, I 2:29:07.480 --> 2:29:10.640 think that's really nice to to bring up actually, because 2:29:11.879 --> 2:29:14.080 that we were speaking about before the core right, So 2:29:14.240 --> 2:29:17.320 many people are familiar with and supportive of the concept 2:29:17.400 --> 2:29:20.360 of unions and unionization and workers right, but I think 2:29:20.720 --> 2:29:24.200 relatively few people have actually been on strike and seeing 2:29:24.240 --> 2:29:26.640 what it takes to organize and all the little things 2:29:26.760 --> 2:29:28.920 you have to take care of. And so did you 2:29:29.040 --> 2:29:31.520 just step into that food captain role like kind of 2:29:31.560 --> 2:29:34.280 ad hoc Yeah, more or less night. I showed up 2:29:34.320 --> 2:29:36.560 on the first day and I realized we had been 2:29:36.840 --> 2:29:42.360 marching around and shouting ourselves for the grocery storey night, 2:29:42.400 --> 2:29:44.160 and I bought a bunch of water and that's sort 2:29:44.200 --> 2:29:49.320 of snowballed into cooking. Now we have about dat or night. Um, 2:29:49.400 --> 2:29:52.840 we rotate shifts and fild planning. We actually used the 2:29:52.879 --> 2:29:59.400 History of Parking graduate lounge. But yeah, you know that's 2:29:59.400 --> 2:30:04.959 st our experience of ticketting is for all the organization 2:30:05.080 --> 2:30:07.880 and signing up for different tasks that need to be 2:30:07.959 --> 2:30:11.880 more in hand, hitting around and seeing what what has 2:30:11.959 --> 2:30:18.160 needed to sustain that a level as has been a journey, Yeah, 2:30:18.200 --> 2:30:19.320 I bet, but it seems to have been a lot 2:30:19.400 --> 2:30:23.440 to be a successful one. Like everyone is out energetic. Um, 2:30:23.680 --> 2:30:25.680 there have been some really impressive actions actually, like I 2:30:25.720 --> 2:30:30.959 don't know if you're part of the village drive shut down, 2:30:31.000 --> 2:30:32.480 I know what you want to call that yesterday, But 2:30:33.760 --> 2:30:36.320 did you take part in that? No? I was, I was, 2:30:36.440 --> 2:30:40.080 I was okay, yeah yeah, the people who were amazing. 2:30:40.240 --> 2:30:43.480 Yeah yeah. We actually found a faculty spy in the 2:30:43.560 --> 2:30:45.520 eight before who went in and asked what time that 2:30:45.680 --> 2:30:51.720 was one game? I'm sort of uh, our window. There's 2:30:51.760 --> 2:30:54.960 been a lot of direct action and it's been very 2:30:55.000 --> 2:31:00.760 successful for the moral perspective and the conversation. I'm sure 2:31:00.760 --> 2:31:05.520 you're a where we uh approached Chancellor Goldslaw yesterday the 2:31:05.600 --> 2:31:09.640 day before and even though obviously we didn't get a 2:31:09.720 --> 2:31:12.400 promise from him that he would raise our wages until 2:31:12.600 --> 2:31:16.040 President Drake to raise our wages. Uh, it was you know, 2:31:16.320 --> 2:31:20.920 very energizing for people who have you been been not 2:31:21.120 --> 2:31:23.400 able to show up because things give me great or 2:31:24.160 --> 2:31:28.880 involved between their people with direct nations is one of 2:31:28.920 --> 2:31:32.400 our strong suits at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. 2:31:32.480 --> 2:31:34.800 It is wonderful to see actually, like so many of 2:31:34.920 --> 2:31:38.560 us spent so much of our lives like studying workers 2:31:38.640 --> 2:31:42.000 movements and unionization and strikes, and it's cool to see 2:31:42.040 --> 2:31:44.280 people walking the talk out a little bit also very 2:31:44.360 --> 2:31:47.120 import What are the really great things about going on 2:31:47.280 --> 2:31:51.560 strike with a bunch of you have the smartest minds 2:31:51.720 --> 2:31:55.280 and in practically every feble to get you know, com 2:31:55.640 --> 2:32:02.200 in patients that are are working on emails and erst philosophy, 2:32:05.080 --> 2:32:13.880 you know, being phlosophers, are you know, quoting working class 2:32:13.920 --> 2:32:18.720 movements of the past of shape our strategy. Yeah, it's 2:32:18.720 --> 2:32:21.280 it's a cool thing to see. And I remember a 2:32:21.480 --> 2:32:24.320 long time ago in like and when the last time 2:32:24.320 --> 2:32:27.360 we were on strike, and yeah, it was very cool. 2:32:27.840 --> 2:32:29.880 One of the professors I was working with with a 2:32:29.959 --> 2:32:32.240 lit professor, and she came and read some stuff and 2:32:32.360 --> 2:32:35.240 then you know, I made people listen to me talking 2:32:35.280 --> 2:32:38.080 about the Ruti for a while and I enjoyed myself, 2:32:38.200 --> 2:32:41.520 even if maybe they didn't. So yeah, I want to 2:32:41.600 --> 2:32:44.280 talk a little bit as well about like you're in 2:32:45.040 --> 2:32:47.560 week three now and you said, like you've been maintaining 2:32:47.600 --> 2:32:51.200 the energy and you're feeding people, which is great. How 2:32:51.320 --> 2:32:53.720 has obviously, like strikes come with an element of economic 2:32:53.800 --> 2:32:57.480 hardship and that that's somewhat offset by union strike funds, 2:32:57.560 --> 2:33:01.320 but it's given the economic procarity of people who are 2:33:01.320 --> 2:33:04.920 graduate students anyway, it could be really tough. So how 2:33:05.000 --> 2:33:07.680 has that been with not quite a December first yet? 2:33:07.800 --> 2:33:10.480 Which would that be the first miss paycheck? If people 2:33:10.480 --> 2:33:15.040 are going to not get paid, yes, uh we are. 2:33:15.720 --> 2:33:18.680 Most of us could vince that the you see, will 2:33:18.760 --> 2:33:22.400 not have gotten their their house in order by this point. 2:33:22.720 --> 2:33:26.240 We were working until November fifteen, so at least you 2:33:26.720 --> 2:33:29.600 kind to have a month to day. But because there's 2:33:29.720 --> 2:33:33.520 no real way or you see, to determine exactly which 2:33:33.560 --> 2:33:37.120 workers are withholding labor and exactly which workers runs right, 2:33:37.440 --> 2:33:43.040 It seems like the majority of workers will be receiving 2:33:43.240 --> 2:33:46.960 their first that there there no venay check UM tomorrow. 2:33:48.000 --> 2:33:50.560 We have also been receiving the striker system the SPROM 2:33:50.680 --> 2:33:55.160 communion w UM. We're all aware that if we do 2:33:55.320 --> 2:33:57.560 receive our p check from the university, you will have 2:33:57.600 --> 2:34:00.200 to return that money, so that you will you sure 2:34:00.560 --> 2:34:04.120 uh strength assistance um and we're cutting large okay with 2:34:04.240 --> 2:34:08.320 that uh you know thats iound out between that we'll 2:34:08.400 --> 2:34:11.040 actually do meet for it makes me a they they 2:34:11.120 --> 2:34:15.000 noble the strength existance sort of holiday okay, So for 2:34:15.280 --> 2:34:18.680 this month long way or another, UM, we are all 2:34:18.879 --> 2:34:21.600 very hopeful that will be able to make ends meet. 2:34:22.160 --> 2:34:25.200 UH next month is is you know if the strike 2:34:25.320 --> 2:34:29.279 does continue, um sort of which that will have to cross. 2:34:29.840 --> 2:34:31.640 I was spoken to a lot of words and the 2:34:31.640 --> 2:34:36.920 intitute parte who are very concerned about about this achex uh, 2:34:37.400 --> 2:34:40.200 particularly also from the program that I teach for the 2:34:40.360 --> 2:34:44.440 Making of the Modern World, which recruits heavily from the 2:34:44.480 --> 2:34:47.480 history of parts has a non student t A s 2:34:47.560 --> 2:34:49.880 and are not covered by the union and are not 2:34:50.240 --> 2:34:54.080 uh I whish hortor strike fully their labored solidarity, but 2:34:54.160 --> 2:34:57.800 they're very concerned that uh, you know, they're primarily working 2:34:57.920 --> 2:35:01.880 as their full time job. That's tough. Actually, I've taught 2:35:02.000 --> 2:35:04.039 that program to both as a student and a non student, 2:35:04.120 --> 2:35:06.840 and it's a good program, but it doesn't pay a 2:35:06.920 --> 2:35:09.200 ton and you don't save a lot of money living 2:35:09.240 --> 2:35:12.040 in southern California, so it could be tough. Is there 2:35:12.040 --> 2:35:14.360 a way to contribute people want to contribute to those 2:35:14.400 --> 2:35:18.240 people who are sort of withholding labor and solidarity. Yes, 2:35:18.360 --> 2:35:22.160 so we are. There is a U A W strike 2:35:22.280 --> 2:35:29.040 hardship funds have yeah, yeah, I'll including the note people. 2:35:30.520 --> 2:35:34.080 And there's also avent mode that we're in checting donations 2:35:34.160 --> 2:35:40.960 for which the natural that's on the US embassy momently 2:35:41.160 --> 2:35:45.480 that just overwhelmed with good willing si you know, depending 2:35:45.520 --> 2:35:47.920 on how on the strike, those would definitely be something 2:35:48.959 --> 2:35:52.200 like large protect support anything I think that the public 2:35:52.280 --> 2:35:56.120 of large and be doing is concerning the pressure on 2:35:56.320 --> 2:36:02.920 the to uh age. Yeah, and yeah, I hope they 2:36:02.920 --> 2:36:05.560 continue to do so. And let's talk a little bit 2:36:05.560 --> 2:36:07.480 about everyone we've talked to so far has been a 2:36:07.520 --> 2:36:10.760 science or engineering person, and obviously the experience is a 2:36:10.840 --> 2:36:15.080 little different when you're a historian or upt so humanities person. 2:36:15.160 --> 2:36:17.600 Because you you don't go to a lab, right you don't, 2:36:17.920 --> 2:36:19.920 your research is a bit different and your work is 2:36:19.920 --> 2:36:22.120 a bit different. So can you explain a little bit 2:36:22.160 --> 2:36:24.840 about the work the work that one does as a 2:36:24.920 --> 2:36:27.000 history grad student, that the labor that one does for 2:36:27.040 --> 2:36:30.080 the university, and and that what the differences in what 2:36:30.200 --> 2:36:33.720 it's like withholding that labor. The differences is that we 2:36:34.000 --> 2:36:37.200 we are the vast majority of us that are in 2:36:37.200 --> 2:36:41.160 the industry department are A S S. We are t 2:36:41.400 --> 2:36:44.600 A and of the majority of us teach for either 2:36:44.640 --> 2:36:48.680 the writing programs for for the history department. UM. So 2:36:49.320 --> 2:36:52.240 when we look at what we can contribute to the strike, 2:36:52.720 --> 2:36:56.640 we are looking at the withholding only a grade, the 2:36:56.760 --> 2:37:00.840 type of grading that cannot be replaced the course I 2:37:00.959 --> 2:37:03.720 tacheen or now there's five or six E A S. 2:37:03.800 --> 2:37:07.400 There's six hundred and fifty students. I'm responsible for sixty 2:37:07.440 --> 2:37:10.360 of those tents. Each of those students has a weekly 2:37:10.480 --> 2:37:15.880 discussion uh animalism five six hundred words. They have a 2:37:16.040 --> 2:37:19.720 content analysis papers which there's now two of them arenessing. 2:37:20.360 --> 2:37:22.960 Those are things that can that cannot be reverted to 2:37:23.040 --> 2:37:26.400 hold choice and to writing. It's not a formula. It's 2:37:26.440 --> 2:37:33.880 not something that be easily UH place. We are aware 2:37:34.000 --> 2:37:37.040 that there has been some tension in terms of strategic 2:37:37.160 --> 2:37:41.000 planning between the A S S and and S are 2:37:41.200 --> 2:37:45.640 using in the STEM fields. UH that on the one hand, 2:37:45.680 --> 2:37:48.760 in their in their teaching duties, UM, they are very 2:37:48.879 --> 2:37:51.000 great that their professors will be able to co opt 2:37:51.040 --> 2:37:54.279 the teaching process. UM, I make the exams will choice 2:37:54.480 --> 2:37:57.360 or or something else. And I'm not how that would work. 2:37:57.760 --> 2:38:01.360 I know that that's just not really possible. Yeah. The 2:38:01.840 --> 2:38:05.320 uh in humanities UM. And the other the issue which 2:38:05.440 --> 2:38:07.200 can I you don't really speak to, but I'm sure 2:38:07.240 --> 2:38:11.680 your other contributors have explained this is we don't work 2:38:11.879 --> 2:38:15.360 in labs. Are researching is a much more long term 2:38:15.760 --> 2:38:20.120 We primarily that research either in uh the an absent 2:38:20.200 --> 2:38:24.640 SIA during this warrior with external fellowships or during the summer, 2:38:25.320 --> 2:38:28.680 whereas SR used and to be working in their labs 2:38:29.000 --> 2:38:31.879 more or less constantly. I've heard it said that one 2:38:31.959 --> 2:38:34.640 of the reasons that SR use are RUDD to be 2:38:34.840 --> 2:38:39.480 less uh committed to a long term strike is because 2:38:39.959 --> 2:38:42.800 missing two weeks in a lab since that back by 2:38:42.959 --> 2:38:47.560 six months in their career or for the mass majority 2:38:47.640 --> 2:38:51.160 of humanities uh A S C. S and I talked 2:38:51.240 --> 2:38:56.480 to two weeks is is very to be picked up 2:38:56.720 --> 2:38:58.600 if you're reading a book in hers fair time, and 2:38:58.720 --> 2:39:01.600 it's not something that we need to be in with 2:39:01.760 --> 2:39:06.880 buns and burners and to animals. So there seems to 2:39:07.000 --> 2:39:16.840 be uh material conditions divide us an scus on one 2:39:16.959 --> 2:39:20.040 an the standing humanities Faunda, Right, yeah, yeah, there were 2:39:20.040 --> 2:39:22.320 definitely like two week periods I spent on my research 2:39:22.400 --> 2:39:25.040 and stuff that I never used in any of my 2:39:25.120 --> 2:39:27.600 final projects. We could trying to get an archive to 2:39:27.680 --> 2:39:31.240 open in Spain you can often take that long. So 2:39:32.440 --> 2:39:34.400 I think one thing I'd like to talk about is 2:39:34.600 --> 2:39:38.360 like the as it stands now, what you're hearing from 2:39:38.360 --> 2:39:42.280 the bargaining team and how that's being received. Like I know, 2:39:42.400 --> 2:39:44.120 there are a lot of different demands, a lot of 2:39:44.160 --> 2:39:47.360 different things that brought people to strike, right, the access 2:39:47.480 --> 2:39:51.440 needs to COLA, the NFL labor practices, etcetera, etcetera. Who 2:39:51.920 --> 2:39:54.520 what are you hearing on the picket line and how 2:39:54.600 --> 2:39:58.080 is it being received? So the news for the first 2:39:58.200 --> 2:40:02.000 week was on date bo the s r U bargaining 2:40:02.120 --> 2:40:07.920 team to accept a seven percent yearly increase cerviuss he 2:40:09.000 --> 2:40:11.040 adjustment that would be paid and I believe for the 2:40:11.120 --> 2:40:16.000 median uh rent an increase in I think in the 2:40:16.040 --> 2:40:18.520 most expensive cities to help working commune San Diego and 2:40:18.680 --> 2:40:23.280 answer system UM. And to be honest, the strike was 2:40:23.400 --> 2:40:27.880 sold to the vast majority of of the uh N 2:40:28.000 --> 2:40:32.160 radicalized on fund educated rank and file as being about 2:40:32.280 --> 2:40:36.600 the fifty four thousand base paying as well as the 2:40:36.680 --> 2:40:39.960 access needs as well as uh you know, uh here 2:40:40.000 --> 2:40:43.360 in the timer employment for some units, UM and various 2:40:43.360 --> 2:40:49.400 different things. But there was a lot of consternation in 2:40:50.040 --> 2:40:52.000 on day four, and I think a lot of us 2:40:52.120 --> 2:40:56.440 became very radicalized, UM when we realized that, not only 2:40:56.680 --> 2:41:01.840 at the SRU bargaining team, apparently the concession on day 2:41:01.879 --> 2:41:04.240 four of what was what was supposed to be a 2:41:04.320 --> 2:41:09.199 very powerful strike, UM, but that concession didn't really resolve 2:41:09.560 --> 2:41:15.120 the issue of skyrocketing inflation and rent process and um, 2:41:15.560 --> 2:41:18.280 you know, different campuses weighing in the saying beyond Santa 2:41:18.320 --> 2:41:21.480 Cruz event went up something like sixty percent in the 2:41:21.600 --> 2:41:26.320 last year. I'm seven black increase doesn't help us at all. 2:41:26.440 --> 2:41:30.280 Like the University of California, the largest employer and the 2:41:30.400 --> 2:41:35.760 largest landlord the state of California is raising you know, 2:41:36.040 --> 2:41:38.600 their wages by a black rate, and then all the 2:41:38.680 --> 2:41:43.800 landlords in that area will continue to raise wag of 2:41:43.879 --> 2:41:47.039 a rent even higher. UM. So a lot of us 2:41:47.080 --> 2:41:50.119 who were really I wasn't around for the two thousand 2:41:50.160 --> 2:41:54.440 and twenty Cola wildcat strike. UM. But in the process 2:41:54.640 --> 2:41:59.400 of this consternation of the s r u BT giving 2:41:59.520 --> 2:42:03.520 up this uh whole out and space to the media 2:42:03.560 --> 2:42:06.880 evnt UM, a lot of us we think very uh 2:42:07.400 --> 2:42:12.879 I also disillusioned, but very radicalized and UM start looking 2:42:12.959 --> 2:42:15.920 into it more uh HU identities. I could say that 2:42:16.080 --> 2:42:22.160 our thinketline where we have a philosophy, literature, UH history 2:42:22.600 --> 2:42:27.280 UM A number of other regulated departments. Who's very militant. UH. 2:42:27.440 --> 2:42:32.000 That was the first kind of moment of uh consciousness 2:42:32.040 --> 2:42:34.800 of awareness I think for a lot of us UM. 2:42:35.360 --> 2:42:40.200 And over the last week is the last two weeks, Yes, 2:42:40.680 --> 2:42:48.520 I'm kind of internal UM struggle over over tactics and strategy, 2:42:49.360 --> 2:42:53.400 whether it's reasonable to expect that we can hold out 2:42:53.560 --> 2:42:59.200 for our aimed the bargaining teams on our campus at 2:42:59.280 --> 2:43:03.280 least and there are exceptions UM have had generally have 2:43:03.440 --> 2:43:07.119 generally advanced a sort of moderate line that yeah, before 2:43:07.120 --> 2:43:09.840 a thousand is high in the sky is great to me. 2:43:10.400 --> 2:43:12.880 But you know, the way the bargaining works is is 2:43:12.920 --> 2:43:15.720 you walk or something high and you can get something low. 2:43:16.120 --> 2:43:19.320 I think we're all, you know, willing to accept that 2:43:19.440 --> 2:43:22.720 that is how bargaining works. But we have, at least 2:43:22.760 --> 2:43:24.800 in my figure mine, at least in the humanity has 2:43:25.080 --> 2:43:28.760 been very uncerted by the tactical decisions to make certain 2:43:28.840 --> 2:43:33.320 possessions at certain stages without letting the full power of 2:43:33.959 --> 2:43:37.360 our strike take hold, especially the reholding of brains, which 2:43:37.440 --> 2:43:42.760 is ing out this week an text week. UM. Another 2:43:42.920 --> 2:43:45.440 thing which you know, most of us have not been 2:43:45.520 --> 2:43:47.280 on the bargaining team, and a lot of us are 2:43:47.400 --> 2:43:50.720 just kind of checking me in, uh to this this 2:43:51.120 --> 2:43:55.039 very long term process. Pretty late the game, we watched 2:43:55.160 --> 2:43:58.360 these bargaining and processions and see what you see he's 2:43:58.400 --> 2:44:02.600 offering definitely just not seem like the bargaining strategy of 2:44:02.920 --> 2:44:07.560 operating session or to get something else there it is 2:44:07.600 --> 2:44:12.000 working at home. UM. I think made some compromises on 2:44:12.360 --> 2:44:16.880 accessibility needs in the hopes that would provoke the u 2:44:17.000 --> 2:44:22.280 SEE to offer a contragensive economic package. Last TEA included 2:44:22.280 --> 2:44:24.560 the one white five percent increase for the s R 2:44:24.640 --> 2:44:29.600 U S proposal and nothing for the A s C S. Wow, yeah, 2:44:29.680 --> 2:44:32.080 that's it's a that's you're still a long way apart then, 2:44:32.840 --> 2:44:35.760 so in both, in both the reprouple of Pola on 2:44:35.920 --> 2:44:40.560 date four, bargaining, I think there's real concern that the 2:44:40.640 --> 2:44:44.640 bargaining team is getting the short end of stay. Yeah, 2:44:45.120 --> 2:44:47.280 that's tough if people don't remember from last time. By 2:44:47.280 --> 2:44:50.080 the way, color is the cost of living adjustment that 2:44:50.280 --> 2:44:54.800 was the initial cause of the weldcats right, YESLA is 2:44:54.920 --> 2:44:58.840 possibility adjustment and there is a lot of um uh 2:44:59.520 --> 2:45:04.520 really in justesting discorse from out what that people are changing. 2:45:04.600 --> 2:45:08.440 No hola, no contracts data mind. COLA has as meetings 2:45:08.520 --> 2:45:14.560 specifically a yearly percentage increase that is tied to exmedient 2:45:14.640 --> 2:45:21.080 rent exmedian man, whereas party team has had argued that 2:45:21.480 --> 2:45:27.960 a seven percent yearly increased qualify as form right, but 2:45:28.080 --> 2:45:31.960 maybe less than inflation given certainly less in rent, given 2:45:32.000 --> 2:45:33.440 what rent has done in the last couple of years. 2:45:34.160 --> 2:45:37.560 And these universities are in very desirable places to live 2:45:37.640 --> 2:45:40.560 with very high rents. They don't offer subsidut or they 2:45:40.560 --> 2:45:44.199 didn't offer significantly subsidized housing, especially to grad students often 2:45:44.400 --> 2:45:47.400 assescially not to all grad students, and so yeah, it 2:45:47.840 --> 2:45:50.880 becomes very difficult to live even on what would seem 2:45:50.959 --> 2:45:55.160 like a decent wage and unless you want to commute 2:45:55.160 --> 2:45:59.199 a long way something like and I have the story 2:45:59.280 --> 2:46:04.920 and I political Sciences that the vast majority of graduate 2:46:04.959 --> 2:46:07.520 streets through report said that they were event burned to 2:46:07.680 --> 2:46:12.240 them by signed for there anyone to meant most people 2:46:12.640 --> 2:46:16.840 not to its more like sementins. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And 2:46:16.879 --> 2:46:19.240 you can find yourself in that situation working for the 2:46:19.320 --> 2:46:21.840 university and with the university also as your landlord, and 2:46:21.920 --> 2:46:24.840 you're paying the Sciences, which you know it has control 2:46:24.879 --> 2:46:28.000 over both ends, and it's not doing much to help anyone. 2:46:28.680 --> 2:46:31.560 Let's talk about withholding grade because that's coming up, right, 2:46:31.600 --> 2:46:34.840 and that's kind of the next level of escalation, I suppose, 2:46:35.000 --> 2:46:38.560 or like that the next hurdle um that's coming up. 2:46:38.680 --> 2:46:42.360 So what do is withholding grades look like? Can and 2:46:42.400 --> 2:46:44.879 can you explain why there's sort of a pedagogical reason 2:46:45.000 --> 2:46:48.720 that people would be obviously like worried about doing that 2:46:48.879 --> 2:46:52.840 or so it's this sort of barrier and what it 2:46:52.840 --> 2:46:54.680 would do to the university and what it would do 2:46:55.320 --> 2:46:59.840 to your students as well. Yes, so fundamentally, the with 2:47:00.000 --> 2:47:03.680 holding grades is the withholding of the alternate finishing product 2:47:04.160 --> 2:47:07.360 of our labor. Uh. We can talk about pedagogy and 2:47:07.480 --> 2:47:12.160 ideology and and you know, high the Ivory Tower rush 2:47:12.200 --> 2:47:13.680 as we want, but at the end of the day, 2:47:13.959 --> 2:47:19.120 when when UH undergraduate at the University of California pays 2:47:19.200 --> 2:47:23.160 their fruition, they expect to get grades and transcripts in return. 2:47:23.600 --> 2:47:27.320 And the reputation of that, you see that makes it 2:47:28.000 --> 2:47:31.560 one of the premier public institutions in the world is 2:47:31.720 --> 2:47:36.199 that that grading uh is is accredited to be reflective 2:47:36.240 --> 2:47:39.160 a very high quality and of education. We are saying 2:47:39.280 --> 2:47:44.280 that we are not providing that old tomate. The record UM, 2:47:44.480 --> 2:47:47.880 which any end is is you know, uh, what a 2:47:47.959 --> 2:47:53.360 student would uh demonstrate if they were applying to graduate school, UH, 2:47:53.520 --> 2:47:57.920 if they were um b d internship, really anything that 2:47:58.480 --> 2:48:04.040 uh reflax their college experience, UH would be hide that great. 2:48:04.680 --> 2:48:07.680 We are also saying that, you know, in addition to 2:48:07.800 --> 2:48:15.240 that very brutal kind of explicit uh, the result uh 2:48:15.800 --> 2:48:18.560 the pedagogy itself is also it's not that you know, 2:48:18.720 --> 2:48:21.760 students are here to learn and and they might complain 2:48:21.800 --> 2:48:24.640 in an individual class, but by largely do get a 2:48:24.720 --> 2:48:28.400 lot from their education. And if they're not being actively 2:48:28.480 --> 2:48:33.000 taught by their teaching assistance, UM, they're suffering. In the 2:48:33.360 --> 2:48:36.960 MMW program that you and I vote up for. The 2:48:37.120 --> 2:48:41.720 lectures are but they're very you know, it's a it's 2:48:41.720 --> 2:48:44.080 a very large lecture hall. It's kind of a general 2:48:44.200 --> 2:48:49.160 just the vast majority of instruction, both in the historical 2:48:49.320 --> 2:48:52.400 cultural UH content of the course as well as in 2:48:52.520 --> 2:48:57.720 the UH the writing UH aspect, which is the point 2:48:57.760 --> 2:49:02.560 of the program to deploy skilled analytical academic writers UM, 2:49:02.840 --> 2:49:05.480 and they are not getting that at all. That's something 2:49:05.520 --> 2:49:07.880 that's a burden that is carried on under present by 2:49:08.080 --> 2:49:11.680 the t A s and by holding that and UH, 2:49:13.000 --> 2:49:16.760 it prevents the students from receiving equality education essentially. So 2:49:17.000 --> 2:49:22.080 you're hoping that, particularly in the humanities, where our LABORI 2:49:22.160 --> 2:49:26.840 is comply irreplaceable, UM, that will pressure the university. Now 2:49:27.000 --> 2:49:31.200 we have been hearing that UM some universities have been 2:49:31.280 --> 2:49:34.880 given the laterally extending the deadline for final bids. And 2:49:34.959 --> 2:49:38.280 I believe that UH either Riverside or Irvine, and just 2:49:38.800 --> 2:49:42.400 a message about this kind of extended January. There's a 2:49:42.440 --> 2:49:45.960 lot of sort of confusion about what that would entail it. 2:49:46.920 --> 2:49:49.200 You know, the strike is over and we all go back. 2:49:49.520 --> 2:49:56.400 We then not to facto. Um. It seems like some 2:49:56.760 --> 2:50:02.439 faculty have either in solidarity or are in uh desperation, 2:50:03.400 --> 2:50:08.600 decided to final exam change the format of those exams. 2:50:09.160 --> 2:50:13.199 Um we are I think that group the most afraid 2:50:13.320 --> 2:50:19.960 that the university will uh ran some sort of doesn't 2:50:20.040 --> 2:50:26.920 how everybody gets pass. If it would, it would theory 2:50:27.040 --> 2:50:32.560 weaken the union's power, but it would also weaken the universities. Yea, 2:50:33.440 --> 2:50:39.879 to require those rates to uh progress de college education 2:50:39.959 --> 2:50:42.080 in their life, it would be a huge low for 2:50:42.200 --> 2:50:46.200 them to receive not a letter date, Um yeah, just ape. 2:50:46.840 --> 2:50:49.080 Yeah yeah, there would be a massive step for the 2:50:49.160 --> 2:50:51.880 university to take in undermining their own status and the 2:50:52.480 --> 2:50:54.320 well being of their students. Right Like if you have 2:50:54.440 --> 2:50:56.840 a required class or required great in a certain class 2:50:56.959 --> 2:50:59.000 to progress to graduate school or to breas to a 2:50:59.040 --> 2:51:03.000 vocational degree, then um yeah, that that would make it. 2:51:03.400 --> 2:51:07.920 They could have long term implications for those students, right yeah, yeah, 2:51:07.959 --> 2:51:09.520 that would be a big step for them. So will 2:51:10.040 --> 2:51:12.320 I suppose Yeah, that's interesting if they extend it what 2:51:12.480 --> 2:51:14.640 are you required to go back and redo. That's a 2:51:14.800 --> 2:51:17.920 huge amount of labor that you would then be doing 2:51:18.080 --> 2:51:21.400 in a very compact amount of time. Two grade three 2:51:21.520 --> 2:51:25.760 MW assignments is an endurance challenge. Great normally due in 2:51:25.840 --> 2:51:28.720 like mid December. Is that still the case, UCSD right now? 2:51:29.000 --> 2:51:32.320 This is this is weekend? Yeah, the clock is taking 2:51:32.480 --> 2:51:34.760 So how does the how does this strike look if 2:51:34.800 --> 2:51:36.640 you go past week ten? Right? If you go not 2:51:36.800 --> 2:51:39.000 just in terms of withholding grades, but obviously campus is 2:51:39.120 --> 2:51:43.120 very different when the undergrads aren't there. I don't think 2:51:43.879 --> 2:51:47.360 really we have discussions about whether or not we're in 2:51:47.440 --> 2:51:50.840 it for the long haul. We are, I think at 2:51:50.879 --> 2:51:56.160 the moment, hedging our bets on the next two weeks 2:51:56.240 --> 2:52:01.440 being in some ways decisive. There are a fashion uh 2:52:03.560 --> 2:52:06.920 you know, the once finals are are over, are power 2:52:07.040 --> 2:52:12.160 dramatically weakens. I'm certainly give the UC decided to uh 2:52:13.959 --> 2:52:18.160 by us the rating for this seemed like that would 2:52:18.200 --> 2:52:20.960 be a happen hosist. I'm not convinced that they would 2:52:21.000 --> 2:52:24.280 do that. Um In I do the longer that we 2:52:24.360 --> 2:52:28.840 withhold those rates, um the look you have the leverage, 2:52:29.320 --> 2:52:31.400 I don't think the US will just throw up their hands. 2:52:31.600 --> 2:52:33.440 You know, well be done to find and say, oh, 2:52:33.520 --> 2:52:36.480 well it's right off, see you next quarter. Yeah. Yeah, 2:52:36.480 --> 2:52:38.080 I think they have been back trying to hold you out. 2:52:38.400 --> 2:52:40.360 I'd love to know, like to close out what you've 2:52:40.480 --> 2:52:43.160 learned through the the three in a bit weeks you've 2:52:43.200 --> 2:52:46.040 been on strike, and what you think like people should 2:52:46.640 --> 2:52:50.000 take from this, Like it's an unprecedented era for workers 2:52:50.120 --> 2:52:53.400 organization in the last thirty years. We've seen more strikes 2:52:53.440 --> 2:52:55.040 in the last few years and we have in decades. 2:52:55.879 --> 2:53:00.480 So what can people learn from the UC experience? Yes? Absolutely, UM. 2:53:00.879 --> 2:53:04.400 One of the things that I have learned which is 2:53:04.640 --> 2:53:09.240 very salient in my mind. UM, as somebody who started 2:53:09.480 --> 2:53:12.840 organizing about three or four months before the strike, I 2:53:13.080 --> 2:53:17.360 was approached to uh be a strikethapton and thinking later 2:53:17.400 --> 2:53:20.120 I went to various trainings, I h sat in on 2:53:20.280 --> 2:53:25.520 campus organizing compete meetings, UH and the the ship we 2:53:25.600 --> 2:53:29.040 were given kind of before the strike began was that 2:53:29.200 --> 2:53:32.440 we had an incredible amount of power the strike gratification vote, 2:53:32.840 --> 2:53:36.560 where UH we uh more than three quarters of the 2:53:36.680 --> 2:53:41.760 graduate students voted overwhelmingly in the many percentile to strike. 2:53:42.480 --> 2:53:45.840 We all went in with a very powerful sense of 2:53:47.280 --> 2:53:52.160 the historic nature of the strike and our our our 2:53:52.200 --> 2:53:57.440 bargains power in our solidarity UM that seemed to be 2:53:57.640 --> 2:54:00.560 treated by any of the un we d ship as 2:54:00.600 --> 2:54:03.640 a finite resource, as something that we want of us 2:54:03.680 --> 2:54:06.840 full to trigger on sent the workers out hope growers 2:54:06.879 --> 2:54:10.440 part resolution and if we didn't get it, then UM 2:54:11.440 --> 2:54:15.240 worked to wrap it up as quickly as we can. 2:54:15.560 --> 2:54:17.880 I'm sure that I'm giving them a short shrift and 2:54:18.200 --> 2:54:22.080 that this is probably ultimately an unfair analysis, very much 2:54:22.160 --> 2:54:28.680 the percentagely that you know this isn't sustainable that we 2:54:28.800 --> 2:54:32.240 are reaching our pet power. UM. Now is the time 2:54:32.320 --> 2:54:36.800 to start UH kind of pivoting to making these concessions. 2:54:37.160 --> 2:54:40.720 And we're all I'm saying that no, this the organizing 2:54:40.800 --> 2:54:44.920 doesn't stop when you walk out. The organizing begins when 2:54:44.959 --> 2:54:48.360 you walk out. And for for people like me who 2:54:48.680 --> 2:54:53.000 you know, had some knowledge I I've experienced in organizing. 2:54:53.120 --> 2:54:58.240 I've been occupy whom I consider myself very well educated radical, 2:54:58.959 --> 2:55:01.920 but just at the fact of getting on the picket line, 2:55:02.000 --> 2:55:07.360 experiencing and talking to my bellow workers across campuses, across 2:55:07.440 --> 2:55:11.680 picket mines has been energizing and maticalizing all on its 2:55:11.720 --> 2:55:15.920 own and don't think that the union leadership really knew 2:55:15.959 --> 2:55:18.360 what to do with that account of language. It the 2:55:18.480 --> 2:55:22.840 bushes where efficient or horses or whatever that a lot 2:55:22.920 --> 2:55:26.680 of speel with the our campus MUNI leadership ought to 2:55:26.800 --> 2:55:30.080 have done a better job with the uh the day 2:55:30.160 --> 2:55:35.080 to day energizing UM. One issue that uh you know 2:55:35.240 --> 2:55:40.520 a camblames specifically on a specific barbeting unit or uh 2:55:40.879 --> 2:55:45.760 even that you U a w T suspive Um, but 2:55:46.200 --> 2:55:49.440 it's a hunter wal comes from above is at um. 2:55:50.600 --> 2:55:52.760 If you do not pick it, you do not actively 2:55:53.000 --> 2:55:56.200 sign up or picket ships that you do in know 2:55:56.320 --> 2:56:00.280 this long round, you do not get strike and um 2:56:00.440 --> 2:56:03.280 And for a lot of us who have accessibility needs 2:56:03.520 --> 2:56:07.520 or are are not closed to campus, or are withholding 2:56:07.560 --> 2:56:09.680 their labor and active in the strength in other ways, 2:56:10.000 --> 2:56:12.280 they feel like there's not really a place for them 2:56:13.640 --> 2:56:17.040 um and and they're doing equally crucial work. Yes, it's 2:56:17.080 --> 2:56:21.119 good to have people picketing and on that visibility. Ultimately, 2:56:21.160 --> 2:56:23.960 if there were two people hitting and everybody else was 2:56:24.040 --> 2:56:27.320 withholding their labor, we would still win the strength. UM. 2:56:27.560 --> 2:56:30.760 So there seems to be an overwhelming emphasis on the 2:56:30.959 --> 2:56:37.000 visible single of our power and our solidarity and the 2:56:38.840 --> 2:56:42.879 concession that was made in day four was explained by 2:56:43.680 --> 2:56:47.960 the dwindling uh amount of people who were showing up 2:56:48.080 --> 2:56:50.840 for pickets, you know from day one to two excreation 2:56:50.920 --> 2:56:52.960 be four um, and a lot of us tried to 2:56:53.000 --> 2:56:55.560 push that on that. So yes, you know, it's it's 2:56:56.600 --> 2:57:01.760 hard to sustain that physical progressing. Yeah, but we should 2:57:01.800 --> 2:57:08.400 be also working to bolster and encourage and harness the 2:57:08.480 --> 2:57:13.160 power of those workers many every day, but nevertheless doing 2:57:14.120 --> 2:57:17.400 apprecial labor stop. Yeah, is this did a remote picking 2:57:17.440 --> 2:57:22.480 option to that account? Yes, yes, there is, uh you know, 2:57:22.840 --> 2:57:26.720 in any in any organization by uh you know, uh 2:57:28.400 --> 2:57:31.960 massive workers. There's these growing pains and nariations in the 2:57:32.080 --> 2:57:36.040 first in the first week of I am dueling remote 2:57:36.080 --> 2:57:39.200 coordinators with separate lists. They resolved, and they seem to 2:57:39.240 --> 2:57:41.160 have been resolved by now the same thing with some 2:57:41.320 --> 2:57:48.480 delays in process things strike, pay count disbursements. Again, there's 2:57:48.520 --> 2:57:52.680 there's no shading as happening. It's just doing this for 2:57:52.800 --> 2:57:55.880 the first time. Um. But for but for people who 2:57:56.600 --> 2:57:59.080 for uh you know, sort of on the fence or 2:57:59.760 --> 2:58:04.280 not I really important this h that was a real 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:09.680 big stressor for them. Their their willingness to kind of 2:58:09.760 --> 2:58:12.960 be out there. Really. Yeah, that totally makes sense, and yeah, 2:58:12.959 --> 2:58:15.440 it's it's already a stressful time, but like you said, 2:58:15.480 --> 2:58:18.120 these things will have people will learning the process, right, 2:58:18.200 --> 2:58:21.960 like it's new for so many people. It's unprecedented to 2:58:22.000 --> 2:58:24.040 have like ten percent of the graduate students in the 2:58:24.120 --> 2:58:28.280 country with holding their labor and so like, they will 2:58:28.320 --> 2:58:30.880 of course be growing paint. And I think often when 2:58:30.920 --> 2:58:32.760 we look at strikes, like both you and me as 2:58:32.879 --> 2:58:35.880 historians and as consumers of the news, we like we 2:58:35.959 --> 2:58:38.520 see one photo of a bunch of people like in hives, 2:58:38.560 --> 2:58:41.480 standing around a brazier, and then three weeks later we 2:58:41.560 --> 2:58:45.400 read another story about a resolution contract, right, and in fact, 2:58:45.560 --> 2:58:49.040 what makes a strike powerful is feeding people and being 2:58:49.440 --> 2:58:53.200 showing up and looking out for one another. So like 2:58:53.320 --> 2:58:56.640 that's what we're trying to document. Thanks so much, Matt, 2:58:56.760 --> 2:59:00.600 And I wonder where people can find if you'd like 2:59:00.640 --> 2:59:02.520 to give your own social media or where people can 2:59:02.560 --> 2:59:05.200 find strike updates from the u S and from UC 2:59:05.360 --> 2:59:08.200 San Diego, anything like that you want to plug. Yes, 2:59:08.280 --> 2:59:11.960 I'm partisan in this, but I would highly recommend not 2:59:13.120 --> 2:59:16.360 getting strike updates from the u C San Diego. So yeah, 2:59:16.640 --> 2:59:19.800 from the campus, now from the university here, so fair 2:59:19.959 --> 2:59:25.360 you see now dot org. Yeah, I think it's I 2:59:25.440 --> 2:59:30.320 think it's an old on the ground. Yeah, dealing with 2:59:30.440 --> 2:59:34.760 documents too much. A great place on Twitter has also 2:59:34.840 --> 2:59:41.160 been very all of its current yeah to date information. 2:59:41.640 --> 2:59:43.960 Can you tell us e venmo where people can like 2:59:44.080 --> 2:59:47.440 hell in the true Spanish historian fashion feed? Everyone? Have 2:59:47.560 --> 2:59:50.240 you got a giant pie out there? You like with 2:59:50.400 --> 2:59:53.960 the spade? So I will clarify this is a This 2:59:54.160 --> 2:59:58.320 is an uneficial Yeah, this is not the u a 2:59:58.640 --> 3:00:05.720 WU worldwide, but the particulars on the USC campus organizing 3:00:05.840 --> 3:00:13.680 meeting the problem lines is at UCSD dash strike nice. Yeah, 3:00:13.840 --> 3:00:16.680 easy to remember and hopefully you get some donations. Thanks, 3:00:16.760 --> 3:00:22.960 I'm your time, Matt, I appreciate it. Hey, We'll be 3:00:23.040 --> 3:00:26.400 back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 3:00:26.400 --> 3:00:28.880 the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here 3:00:28.959 --> 3:00:31.600 is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 3:00:31.600 --> 3:00:34.160 from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 3:00:34.240 --> 3:00:36.039 dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 3:00:36.120 --> 3:00:39.080 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:00:39.560 --> 3:00:41.640 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3:00:41.720 --> 3:00:45.199 monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 3:00:45.240 --> 3:00:45.720 for listening.