1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,359 Speaker 1: you know. This is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you 8 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, 9 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: good night, Hello, and welcome. So it could happen here. 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: It is three pm in the winter, so it's all 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: of those at once. So for here that is true. 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: That is true. It is seven here, it's regular evening time. Yeah, 13 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: no winter included, you know, just rain Unhot's the two 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: moods of the web. Yeah, which winter is it right now? 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: Is did rain to a hot winter? Neither? There? Winters never? Well, 16 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: I hope that winter never comes to the island. If 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: it does, I think will be in some deep ship. 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: You know. If you guys get snowing, its time frestle 19 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: to reevaluate our practices when that happen. Until the absolutely 20 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: that means the parrots have migrated to Alaska. Oh, God, 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: they knew a lot of movements around the evening time, 22 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: so I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pack 23 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: up and leave us all behind. Well this is it 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: could happen here as as you might be aware, a 25 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart, and today's episode is brought 26 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: to us by Andrew Hello of the YouTube channel Andrewism. 27 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Just avoid confusion with other Andrews, you know, I did 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: not realize. Yeah, that's right, son of the Queen. Yeah, 29 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, you can talk about Prince Andrew. You can 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: talk about Andrew teeth. You know, it's like distinguished myself, 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you're the best, Andrew. I appreciate that anytime, buddy. 32 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: So I'd like to spend some time today tonight what 33 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: is time really and to talk about the concept of 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: d growth, you know, where it comes from, what it means, 35 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: what it needs, and all that other fun stuff. Are 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: you guys familiar with the growth US as a concept? Yeah, 37 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, I mean, and it's yeah, I 38 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: I please please. I mean it's one of those things 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: that gets a lot of like uh flak on one 40 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: hand for people saying that it's basically eco fascism, and 41 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: then you have folks being like, no, it's a it's 42 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: a perfectly reasonable response to the kind of endless growth 43 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,279 Speaker 1: attitude that got us into the environmental catastrophe we're currently experiencing. 44 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: That's yeah, I think that Having released a video on 45 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: Decruth last week and having read through some of the 46 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: comments have received, um, I've come to the conclusion that's 47 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: there's no getting through to some people. Yeah. People, people 48 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: love to listen to like a third of what you 49 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: say and then get really angry at what they think 50 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: you said. Every time we talk about like the value 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: of of things like you know, the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective, 52 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, hacking different medicines or training people being medics. 53 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: Somebody hops on the subred and said, I think it's 54 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: kind of able. Is that they think that, you know, 55 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: people can replace doctors with with street medics. Like, no one, 56 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: no one's ever made that case. That that's not a 57 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: thing that anyone has ever said. I'm going to make 58 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: it my entire life mission to only specifically make this 59 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: case some gauze and water in a bag. Yeah, doctors, 60 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: but they they must all die when the revolution comes. 61 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: They will only be replaced the street that X, it's 62 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: gonna be great. I'm texting all of this to our 63 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: friends cover right now, Dr Whoda. Yeah, it's just it's 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: just ridiculous. So people will literally project what they think 65 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: you said onto what you actually said. It's very very 66 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: obvious when it's taken place. I don't know how they 67 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: will feel embarrassed. You know, a lot of times I 68 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: barely comment on things. I barely respond to things, and 69 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: when I do, I check and recheck and re check 70 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: what the person has said. Then I check and recheck 71 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: and recheck what I see before I get the statement, 72 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: because I don't know how do I feel embarrassed? Yeah, 73 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: like everybody who has watched the video conceded you haven't 74 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: watched it. They've just had like a term search and 75 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: then appeared and yeah, and like, yeah, come to engage 76 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: you pretty much pretty much. But I mean, if I 77 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: were to be a sleeve for the algorithm, I would 78 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: say all that engagement helps, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm sure 79 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't helps. It helps one thing for sure, Yeah, 80 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: help get us to a better place. Unfortunately, and speaking 81 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: of things that do not help us get to a 82 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: better place, I think it's the growth primarily is about 83 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: confronting this destructive ideology of growthism. You know, something we 84 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: see all around us, something we interact with on a 85 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: failure regular basis. You see the images of the Amazon 86 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: rainforest being cut down to be um, turning into soy 87 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: firms until eventually it's made into a cattle grease in fields. 88 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: You talk about the constant expansion of oil infrastructure, You 89 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: talk about the constant expansion of mining operations, You talk 90 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: about the continued rise of fast fashion. That people are 91 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: extremely defensive whenever you try to criticize it. Um, all 92 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: of these systems, all of these industries, all of these practices, 93 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: is uh part of part and parcel, or rather products 94 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: of this ideology of growth is um that capitalism is 95 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: driven by. And I know it may be strange for 96 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: some people to sort of deep program from this idea 97 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: that growth is like an unadulterated could uncontroversially positive because 98 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: you know, natures like all about growth, right. You know, 99 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: when you think of growth, you think of a plant 100 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: speaking out of the soil. You think of a baby 101 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: kitten growing up to be a cat. You talk about 102 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 1: like babies becoming toddlers, becoming young children, becoming older children, becoming, 103 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, tweens and teens and then finally adults and 104 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: then from there Joe biden. Um. But you know, there's 105 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: this whole idea of growth, and that growth is like 106 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: a natural part of life. That is true. But growth 107 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: in life does not go on and on and on 108 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: and on. You know. Organisms grow up to a certain 109 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: point and then they maintain a healthy equilibrium, or at 110 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: least they try to. Um. Of course, health is not 111 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: necessarily a natural state of affairs, because viruses are just 112 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: as natural as the cells they attack. And then you 113 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: can also get all uh femeral and talk about personal 114 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: growth and how life is a constant journey of personal 115 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: growth and whatever. But speaking materially, we can physically, growth 116 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: has a limit. People grow up to a certain height, 117 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: certain size, and so on, and when growth doesn't stop, 118 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: that's when we start run into problems. As I understand, 119 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: the reason that cancer is so difficult to cure is 120 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: because your own body turning against you. It's your it's 121 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: some of the many trillions of your own cells deciding okay, 122 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: time to just grow and grow and grow without limit. 123 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: And what happens in most of those cases, and many 124 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: of those cases rather unfortunately people die as a result. 125 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: So our bodies and our own bodies, we understand that 126 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: growth is not always positive, and yet that's sick logic 127 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: of growth for its own sake is exactly what the 128 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: global economy relies on. So that's just think that's too 129 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: much growth, too much money, too much stuff. And you 130 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: have all these wealthy nations to continue to expand and 131 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: grow and attempt to hold I heard one person use 132 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: the analogy a camemberhood was um talking about how capitalism 133 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: is now attempting to the new frontiers. For capitalism is 134 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: to expand and colonize our own minds um. And so 135 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: every economy, every sector, every industry is expected to keep growing, 136 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: keep growing, keep growing, no matter what. One of the 137 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: responses that I got on my video on the growth 138 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: is that, oh, well you're seeing that growth is this 139 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: im growthsma is this capitalist thing. But you know China 140 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: and USSR, and they grew and they industrialized and they 141 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: are just as susceptible to ecological destruction as any other 142 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: capitalist country. And that is true, but that's also part 143 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: of why I would consider those countries to be um 144 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: state capitalist projects UM and not anything close to what 145 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: I envisioned. But of course, the moment you introduce any 146 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: idea that sounds even vaguely socially oriented, even vaguely ecologically oriented, um, 147 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: people automatically assume you're trying to go for like new 148 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: United Soviet Socialist Republic. But I think we need to 149 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: explore different paths to improve in quality of life, to 150 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: code and code developing. And that's a tricky subject I'll 151 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: get into a bit later. But we need to think 152 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: of way as that we can help people and help 153 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: people live better lives without relying and desperating the bias fare. 154 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: It's a tricky conversation to be had, um, because when 155 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: people think of growth, they think, if it as a positive, 156 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: I want you to criticize that positive. They think the inverse. 157 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: They think you're trying to make everybody degrade and go 158 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: down to like a wost quality of life, to rush 159 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: back to to like a lower life expectancy, What transform 160 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: a mode of production back to like hunting and gathering. 161 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: But the truth is that deep growth as a movement, 162 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: as to stem of thought, is more so about trying 163 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: to find that balance between a good quality of life 164 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: for all, not just this unequal quality of life that 165 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: we see around the world and the capitalism while also 166 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: balancing the fact that we live in material world. We 167 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: live on a planet that has limited resources. We need 168 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: to balance those resources. We need to consider and be 169 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: good stewards of you know, uh planet that we share 170 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: with other living creatures. Capitalism really is driven by this 171 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: ideology of growthism because it is structurally incentivized. Structurally, it 172 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: is a structural imperative in the capitalist system. It's not 173 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: exclusively driven by greed, as some people assume. I think 174 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: that's that that this idea that it's all up to 175 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: like personalities, kind of hampers people's ability to analyze systems 176 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter whether, um, we suddenly put each 177 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: and every CEO in a position where they are all 178 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: completely one hundreds and altruistic. It's not that they all 179 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: being driven by greed. It's because under capitalism, you know, 180 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: capitalists own capital, and capital that is stagnant is capital 181 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: that is losing its value, and so they look for 182 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: things to invest in so they can grow their capital. 183 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: Capital being anything from real estate, factories, machinery, intellectual property, 184 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: financial assets. What is the money that they used to 185 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: make more money? If it's stagnant, it's losing value, and 186 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: they're trying to increase its value. UM as they see gold. 187 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: Companies that have growing profits year after year, so their 188 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: capital will grow year after year. And if that crew 189 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: slews down, they pull out and look elsewhere to invest. 190 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: Companies that failed to grow will lose their investors and collapse. 191 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: And so companies do everything their power to maintain growth 192 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: so they can maintain the investors, regardless of how much 193 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: havoc they reach upon the world. So if any barriers 194 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: are preventing their growth, they had to bulldoz those barriers. 195 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: You know, Environmental protections are barriers, labor lowers are barriers, protections, 196 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: policies are barriers. The commons were a barrier, Indigenous populations 197 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: were a barrier, and so on and so forth. All 198 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: of these acts of violence open up these new frontiers 199 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: for growth, for appropriation, for accumulation, and so incomes the growth. 200 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: Or the French term for it is the croissant um, 201 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: and I know that I likely pronounced that incorrectly. It's 202 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: the French. We can disrespect them precisely. I think um 203 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: things to sit down, reflect on their new cluing, the 204 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: empire um. But anyway, this idea of the growth really 205 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: first was developed. I have to say that I appreciate 206 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: what the intellectuals have come up with. They're good at 207 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: sitting down and thinking about stuff. I'll give them that. 208 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: I'll give them that. So there's one French intellectual guy 209 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: named Andrea Course in vent two coined the tomb de 210 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: consin French. For the growth go has basically posed a 211 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: question that remains at the center of the growth is 212 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: the Earth's balance, for which no growth or even the 213 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: growth of material production is a necessary condition compatible with 214 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: the survival of the capitalist system. I would Mangae to say, no, 215 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: it is not in any way compactible with this mavel 216 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: the capitalist system, because we have seen it in this 217 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: short period of time that the capitalism has existed, it 218 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: has rapidly triggered the capital scene, or as some people 219 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: regrettably called the anthropocene. It has rapidly triggered the sixth 220 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: great mass extinction event um. And so I do not 221 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: believe that the Earth's balance it's compatible with its survival. 222 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: And so the Croissant movement of activists mainly flourished in 223 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: Lyon in the early two thousand's. In the week of 224 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: protests for car free cities, communal meals in the streets, 225 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: food cooperatives, and campaigns against advertising. It went from France 226 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: to Italy, where agreed and anti globalization activists h mobilized 227 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: against this whole concept of capitalisms, constant encroachments and expansion 228 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: and growth expanded into Catalonia in Spain in two thousand six. 229 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: It eventually built up to the size where I could 230 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: sustain a movement a magazine rather Crossan which currently sells 231 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: a few thousand copies a month. Around the same time, 232 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand four, a research and activist named France 233 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: Swash Schneider took a year long walking tour on a 234 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: donkey to disseminate the growth throughout France and that received 235 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: some media coverage. Eventually, Schneider founded an academic collective known 236 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: as Research and the Growth along with Dennis Bayonne and 237 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: February Free Poo, and they eventually began international conferences went 238 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: in Paris into those and eight and the second in Barcelona. 239 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: So the English term de growth was officially used for 240 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: the first time at the Paris conference, which really marked 241 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: the booth of the international research community around the growth. 242 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: Following the success of the conferences in Paris and Barcelona. 243 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: Other conferences were held in Montreal in twenty eleven, Venice 244 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: and twelve, Leipzig fourteen uh and the growth as an 245 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: idea spread to groups in Flanders, Switzerland, Finland, Poland, Greece, Germany, Portugal, Norway, Denmark, 246 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: Czech Republic like guess it's a check here now, Mexico, Brazil, 247 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, Canada, Bulgaria, Romania and elsewhere. The growth as 248 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: an idea, as in a movement has been getting ground, 249 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: despite the criticisms that somehow that oh, well, you can't 250 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: call it something negative like the growth, because people wouldn't 251 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: be you know, happy with it or whatever. Um. And 252 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: I'll get to that criticism in a bit. But it's 253 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: been steadily gruin since it was first you know, developed 254 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies. Um. At this point in time, 255 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: if you go on the the Growth website, you will 256 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: find thousands of articles and studies in their library. And 257 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: of course it's not to say that because of concept 258 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: has a lot of followers or thinkers or published works, 259 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: it's automatically h a, okay, ultimately correct. But at this 260 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: point in time, I think a lot of people are 261 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: looking at direction we are going in and recognizing that 262 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: we cannot continue along this path of growth, and so 263 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: they are actively looking for a way out, looking for 264 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: a way to find that balance, recognizing that capitalism is 265 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: not compatible with the Earth's balance. And so the Growth 266 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: ultimately rejects the illusion of growth. It calls to re 267 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: politicize the public debate that has been colonized by the 268 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: idiom of economism um that has been driven towards as 269 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: a social objective, economic growth. The Growth is a project 270 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: advocating for the democratically lead shrinking of production and consumption 271 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: with the aim of achieving social justice and ecological sustainability. 272 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: I think when some people care degrowth, despite all the 273 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: explanations out there, despite even consumers explanations, they might still 274 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: have this idea and they had the degrowth is this 275 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: thing where bunch of armed, government sponsored environmental activists roll 276 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: up and take your car and your house and force 277 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: you to live in a cave. Um. But de grow that. 278 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: How we de grow our economy is going to rely 279 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: on the popular um involvement of the people. You know, 280 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: It's not like you could just snap your fingers or 281 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: just decreate and make it so, Um, it's not meant 282 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: to be like how it is under new liberalism, where 283 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: you have all this austerity. The growth is supposed to 284 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: be all of us coming together to this to figure 285 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: out how we can live in alignment with our biosphere, 286 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 1: with our bioregion, with the planet, scaling down our individual 287 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: and our community um supply chains, and localizing our consumption 288 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: in order to reduce the reliance on this highly extractive, 289 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: highly growth dependent, cabulist global capitalists economy. The growth also 290 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: signifies a direction, a desired direction, one in which society 291 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: is use fewer natural resources and organize and live much 292 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: differently than they live today. The ideas of you know, sharing, 293 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: which is something we teach the preschoolers, simplicity, conviviality, care, 294 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: and the commons primary concepts in terms of what a 295 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: deecret society should look like. Uh. In one of my 296 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: previous podcast episodes that would have discussed the Commons a bit, 297 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: so if anyone is curious about what the Commons are, 298 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: they could check that out. Um. And of course on 299 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: my channel also speak about the Commons as an institution 300 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: and about libraries of things, and so the growth has 301 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: offered a sort of a framework that connects all these 302 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: different ideas, concepts, proposals UM with the criticism of growth, 303 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: with the criticism of GDP, with the criticism of commodification 304 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: UM the process that converts social products and socio ecological 305 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: services and relations into commodities of the monetary value. On 306 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: the constructive side, because the growth is not just limited 307 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: to criticism, do you imagines reproductive economies of care, the 308 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: reclamation of all and the creation of new commons man 309 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: need and natural caring for commons in communal forms of 310 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: living and producing UM, liberating our time from work and 311 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: making it available to caring for our communities and caring 312 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: for our ecology. Because if you think about all of 313 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: the activities that are currently so needed at this point 314 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: in time in terms of ecological restoration, in terms of 315 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: um DE growth, they're not profitable. You know, planting man 316 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: grooves to shore up our shows, to defend our shows 317 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: from your waning from storms is not profitable. Replanting forests 318 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: and sparking nature's processes of eclosial restoration not profitable. And 319 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: of course there is a whole sorts of ecosystem, economic, political, 320 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: ecosystem dedicated to these kinds of projects with all the 321 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: NGOs and government organizations involved in replanting the Sahel region 322 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: in Africa, for example, creasingly create green wall. But those 323 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: projects tend to be righte with issues and a lack 324 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: of intendence because they do not involve local communities in 325 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: the decision making surrounding um that process of restoration. And 326 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: on top of that, of course, these projects are not 327 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: embedded in broad ut project for the growth. So a 328 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: government a government might be planting trees, planting forests in 329 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: one part of the country and extracting and drilling in 330 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: another part of the country, and so there needs to 331 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: be an integration of all these different projects with a 332 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: brother push and direction towards the growth. I want to 333 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: go back around to this idea that UM the growth 334 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: is a critique of GDP as a concept. UM the 335 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: growth is not necessarily the same as negative GDP growth. 336 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: But when you consider how GDP is measured, as it's counted, 337 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: it's about financial transactions and not necessarily the non financial ones. 338 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: And so if we were to crean our economy, if 339 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: we were to DeCrow our society, UM we're not going 340 00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: to be seeing the really grows. Domestic activity increases of 341 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 1: two or three percent. Yeah, there's there's an old like 342 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: two eleven slogan that's, uh if when the bank takes 343 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: your house, that increases GDP, Right, that is true. That 344 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: is true. A lot of uh, positive and constructive and 345 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: beneficial actions that people do on a regular basis do 346 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: not contribute to g P, whereas entire destructive industries contributes 347 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: significantly its every month. We started this by talking by 348 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: comparing kind of the quest for endless growth to a cancer, 349 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: but I almost think it's a better comparison. Is Like, 350 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, there was that article early this year about 351 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: how specific kinds of people, particularly like rich weirdos in 352 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: the tech industry, are paying thousands of dollars to have 353 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: their legs broken and like lengthened so that they can 354 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: like that's that's that's a that's a shipload of how 355 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: act Like, Yeah, I mean it's weaker, they can never 356 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: we can never run again. But you are technically taller, 357 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: so we'll count on as growth. Yeah, go up. Much 358 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: of a coward to wear platforms? Yeah yeah, so you don't. 359 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: You don't have the hotspot to be a short king. Unbelievable. 360 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes I do think that like when anthropologists on civilization 361 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: the wonder why were so fascinated about line go up? 362 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: But then they realized that the whole point of the 363 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: civilization was line go up. Like that that was oddity, truly, truly, 364 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: it's it's it's I don't know. My eyes my eyes 365 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: bleed sometimes thinking about how this whole system is structured 366 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: and how it just continues to chug along. But um, 367 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: that's why I spend so much time writing and reading 368 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: and talking about these issues, right, trying to find a 369 00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: whee out. And so that is also what de with 370 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: advocates are looking to do, the looking for a way out, 371 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, a way for a better life first of all, 372 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: which brings me to the whole criticism of the growth 373 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: that is essentially optics. Right. They say it's not appropriate 374 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: to use a negative word to signify desired positive changes, 375 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: but the growth advocates deliberately choose I mean, in my 376 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: videw I said that I'm fine with either quality growth 377 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: or qualitate post growth or whatever. But the growth advocates 378 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: have chosen the term de growth for a reason. The 379 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: use of negation for a positive project is aimed towards 380 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: creating that sort of um questioning, you know, towards getting 381 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: people to reconsider this idea of growth as a ultimate 382 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: could to de colonize imagination that has been dominated by 383 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: this whole capitalist conception of the future, consistent of you know, 384 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: line go up. Is this automatic assumption and association of 385 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: growth with better that the word the growth wants to dismantle, 386 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: wants to be constructed sod. Growth is a deliberately subversive slogan. 387 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: And of course the growth is not aimed at, you know, 388 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: deconstructing the most necessary sectors, the devolved in the most 389 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: necessary sectors. We're not talking about de grow and education, 390 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: de grow in, medical care, de grow in you know, well, 391 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: renewable energy is kind of a tricky subject, but DeCrow 392 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: and renewable energy, UM, it's more so about primarily and 393 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: first of all targets in the most duty and destructive industries, 394 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, the financial sector. UM. We would prefer to 395 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: see institutions like health and education flourish rather than crew 396 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: or develop. We want to change that is qualitative, not 397 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: necessarily quantitative. You want to see a flourishing of the arts, 398 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: of flourishing of philosophies, a flourishing of um vernacular architectures 399 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: and flourishing of the creativity of people. And that's qualitative. 400 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: It's not about oh well, line go up, so things 401 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: more good. You know. It's not about we have ten 402 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: industrial outputs last year, now we have twelve. That's so good. 403 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: You know, we want something. We want quality to change that. 404 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: And if most people really sit down and think about 405 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: what they want in their life, I don't think a 406 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: lot of people are gonna are gonna think of, oh well, 407 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: I want next year's iPhone to have a twelve increase 408 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: in the camera quality. You know, it's more so that 409 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: you want better you know, rest um more um, connected communities, 410 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: healthier commute or healthier UM I guess city layout. UM. 411 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: It's more conducive to interaction. It's more conducive to small 412 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: scale movement. It's not about, like I said, you know, 413 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: it's not about trying to get line to go up. Cryptocurrency, 414 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: as I think about it, it's like perhaps the best 415 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,959 Speaker 1: example or like n f T s right, like they 416 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: created a bunch of value that literally created nothing. I 417 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: had nothing other than exchange value exactly exactly. It's just nonsense. Yeah, 418 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: pretend money. I talk for a moment about like development 419 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: as a concept, right, because another common criticism of the 420 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: growth is that, oh, well, what about the global South, 421 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: what about the Third world? What about all the poor 422 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: countries and poor people of the world. You just want 423 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: to leave them behind? And from one I find it 424 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: strange because the person in question, at least the video 425 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: response that I got, simplicitly assumes that I am from 426 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: like a global North nichetion and I'm just fine sitting 427 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: down with my you know, um, same day Amazon delivery 428 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: and Starbucks and um, sprawling suburbs and whatever it is 429 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: that you know, they imagine my lifestyle is like. But 430 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: I think first and foremost parts of the whole move 431 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: a t growth is to consider, um, like I said, reason, 432 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: improving people's quality of life worldwide, which capitalism is not 433 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: interested in. Coupitism will maintain a perpetual underclass because they're 434 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: easier to exploit. And so this is whole idea of development, 435 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: right that has this baggage. Um, it's very colonial baggage. 436 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: But it's development is really like growth. It's meant to 437 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: have like a limit. It's an unfolding towards a predetermined end. 438 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: You know, an embryo eventually develops into a fetus, so 439 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: she eventually develops into a baby. She eventually develops into 440 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: a child, she eventually develops into an adult who then 441 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: ages and dies. But development for the sake of development, 442 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: with no end, with no ams, with no goals, with 443 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: no sense of um self critique or questioning, It's a 444 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: disaster waiting to happen. I can look at my own 445 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: country and from Trenon to Vigo for those who don't know, 446 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: and think of things that need to get better, right, 447 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: Things that would really improve people's quality of life. UM. 448 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: To think about the fact that we really need to 449 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: get rid of our reliance and cars and bring back 450 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: our training system UM that was dismantled so long ago. 451 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: I could think about the fact that we need to 452 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: improve our food or autonomy because we are extremely reliant 453 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: on food imports. UM. Things like that I can think 454 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: about that would improve people's ability to live well and 455 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: sustainably on this island. But those things, those aims, those 456 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: are those are cools, right. I'm just thinking, oh, development, development, development. 457 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, Okay, there's point B. How do I get 458 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: there from point A? How are we going to meet 459 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: people's basic needs? And this whole and the whole deep 460 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: with projects is really about that whole conversation between the 461 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: globle North and the Global Salt. Right, the global North 462 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: needs to reduce their demand for a lot of the 463 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: resources and goods so that they're more accessible to the 464 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: Global Salt. But in making those things more accessible, places 465 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: in the Global Salt are not meant to follow the 466 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: same path that the Goloble North took that put us 467 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: in our mess. The whole ideas that we need to 468 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: find a different path, We need to find a different trajectory. 469 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: We need to think for ourselves instead of trying to 470 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: keep up with the Joneses in order to determine what 471 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: a good life would mean for us in our ecological niche, 472 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: in our geographical situation. Yeah, what us. It's like we did, 473 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: we did we we did. We did this in China, right, 474 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: like we did the entire development thing. And the product 475 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: is now like people literally sucking eighteen miles on foot 476 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: after having broken out of a fox con factory that 477 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: they've been locked in and forced to make iPhones because 478 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: someone had like three people have gotten COVID, so they 479 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: just like locked everyone in the factory. So like you 480 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: know it, Yeah, and I think it's also sort of 481 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: like briefly worth mentioning that like development as a concept 482 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: and the sort of developmental economics field was like this 483 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: was like specifically developed in sort of the bowels of 484 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: the American State Department as as a response to like 485 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: basically as like as a way as a kind of 486 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: like simplified capitalist version of Marxist theory they could throw 487 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: out to sort of like explain what was happening in 488 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: like as as as as a sort of an alternative 489 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: Demarxism for like all these sort of like newly post 490 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: colonial nations. And you know, it's gone about as well 491 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: as you would expect. I think the valles of the 492 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: State Department to be alternative department. Like, well this has 493 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: been fun. Um, I love I don't know thinking about capital. 494 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: I mean this is it's this is important because like 495 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: we always need to be thinking about what comes next. 496 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: This is constantly like a problem that the left has 497 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: and certainly a problem the liberals have, which is that, um, 498 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: the vision of the future is very rarely anything more 499 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: than fighting against kind of the demons of the moment, 500 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: as opposed to like what does it actually look like 501 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,479 Speaker 1: to get ourselves to a better place, to a place 502 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: that's more sustainable, both in an environmental level and in 503 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: like in a manner of human ecology too, And um, yeah, 504 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: I think this is like, this is kind of the 505 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: hard work that people need to be thinking about. Wherever 506 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,959 Speaker 1: you wind up landing on on d growth as either 507 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: a concept or as a term like, these are the 508 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: paths we have to start beating out of the bush, 509 00:36:51,600 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, exactly. So there are many potential that already 510 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: been thought up, and there are many that have yet 511 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: to be imagined. In Ecuador, the project of Sumac, Say 512 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: and really the rest of Latin America, the idea of 513 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: green vivere in much of South Africa, the concept of 514 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: Ubuntu in India, the Gandhian economy of permanence. All of 515 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: these projects are more explore alternatives to quote and quote development, 516 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: alternats of trajectories to a good life UM that is 517 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: rooted in environmental justice, that is based in a retreat 518 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: from the narrow confines of the global norths imagination UM 519 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: and what that imagination has promoted worldwide and what's upon 520 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: the rest of the world. The growth requires us to 521 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: think for ourselves, to think creatively about how we plan 522 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: on creating a good life in the context of capitalism's degradation, 523 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: the Earth's degradation due to climate change, and what that 524 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 1: will mean for our future is we really need to 525 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: sit and think about what our future as a species, 526 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: what of our future as regions, our future as communities, 527 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: of future as individuals is going to look like, what trajectory, 528 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: what path we want to take, and how we begin 529 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: that journey. And so in the second part of this 530 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: two part series, I intend to discuss what concepts are 531 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: essential for the growth, the steps we can take to 532 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: move towards the growth, and how we can integrate the 533 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: growth in anarchist politics. All right, and that's going to 534 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: be the end of part one. Come back tomorrow for 535 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 1: part two and uh, probably more discussion of that weird 536 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: surgery rich people get to have their legs broken repeatedly 537 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: until they're taller. Hello, and welcome back to it could 538 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: happen here, um a show where things happen people talk 539 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: about it, Yes, in this present location. That's correct. Last 540 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: episode we spoke about the concept of the growth and 541 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: what it means to de grow, how the growth as 542 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: a movement came about, what inspired the critique that the 543 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: growth pushes, and what the growth means for those of 544 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: us who live in the Global South, how we can 545 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: go about imagining um new and different paths to a 546 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: better life within ecological limits. This episode will continue in 547 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: that conversation talking about what is essential for the growth. 548 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: As I discussed in the previous episode, the growth is 549 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: about striving for self determined life and dignity for all. 550 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: It means an economy in a society that can sustain 551 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: the natural basis of life. It means reduction of production 552 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: consumption the globe on the north and the liberation the 553 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: one sided Western paradigm of development so that the Global 554 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: South can explore their own, our own, self determined paths 555 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: of social organization. The growth means an extension of democratic 556 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,479 Speaker 1: decision making to allow for real political participation. The growth 557 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: means that social changes organized and oriented towards sufficiency and 558 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: self sufficiency and ecological sustainability, rather than the pursuits of 559 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: a line grew up a pursuit of economic growth, regardless 560 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: of its impact on people, planet, and the growth of 561 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: course advocates for the creation of open, connected and localized economies, 562 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: there are several steps that need to be taken in 563 00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 1: order to achieve a d growth society, achieve a degrowth 564 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: will to deeprou For one, I think that, as Jason 565 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: Hickel advocates in his book Less is More, we absolutely 566 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: need to put an end to the practice of planned 567 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: obso lessons, whether it be in household appliances and tools 568 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: and furniture and computers. We need to shift away from 569 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: this idea of products being produced to break down in 570 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: a certain timeline and require replacement. UM. I personally have 571 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: witnessed a lot of older technologies that continue to last 572 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: to this day before because they were invented before this 573 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: whole practice the plant obs lessons really came about. Yeah, 574 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: but my family, we have a microwave that is like 575 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: a decade older than I am, and it still works fine. Wow. Yeah, 576 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: And I mean in my own lifetime, I've had to 577 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: purchase multiple microwaves, so it's it's ridiculous. Yeah, That's always 578 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that I always thought like there 579 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: was a real sort of like this is how you 580 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: this is how you appeal to conservative people with this 581 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: is just like hey, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna 582 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 1: bring back like nineteen sixties microwaves where everything is a 583 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: dial and it doesn't break every Yeah, because I think, yeah, 584 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: I think what's what's missing in the conversation about t 585 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: growth is a lot of people like me, they assume, 586 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: because they react to negative that everybody else will, you know, 587 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: they kind of project their own reaction to others. But 588 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: I think political spectrum aside um or political chart or 589 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: how are you gonna um map out the unmappable UM. 590 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: I think that people generally, as I was discussing the 591 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: previous episode, want a good life, and that requires qualitative 592 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,879 Speaker 1: changes far more than it requires quantitative changes. Of course, 593 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: there are places where quantitative changes are needed to make 594 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: some things accessible to that population. UM. But we already 595 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: over produce a lot of different things UM, And a 596 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,479 Speaker 1: lot of overproduction is completely necessary because it is based 597 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: and planned obs lessons in order to increase profits, and 598 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: so that needs to Once that is discarded, I think 599 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: people have will will best be able to access that 600 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: quality of life because we look at a lot of 601 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: the sudden expenses that people have to deal with. You know, 602 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: you've fridge suddenly breaking down, your stove suddenly breaking down 603 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,800 Speaker 1: in my careave for your toolster certainly breaking now and 604 00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: or you're washing machine. Um. I think in this year, 605 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 1: the and had to fix the washing machine three or 606 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: four times because it's just constantly breaks down. And when 607 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: instead we can save that those resources see at that time, 608 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: see that energy, see that money. Um, just produce certain 609 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: quality food the foods time, you know, put an end 610 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: to those deliberate manufacturing decisions and developing long lasting modular 611 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: products that can reduce our you know, material and energy 612 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: use worldwide. I think in a lot of cases, we 613 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: don't necessarily need more innovation, you know. I don't think 614 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: we really need like a smart fridge. I think we 615 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: just need a fridge that works for decades without breaking 616 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: down constantly. Yeah, And like like so much of the 617 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: stuff that's sort of like nominally is informatus, like it's 618 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: supposed to be. Innovation is just how how how can 619 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,400 Speaker 1: we make this product in such a way that we 620 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: can sell consumer data about you from it? Like we 621 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: don't need to do that. We can simply not. We 622 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: can simply not. We can simply not exactly exactly. And 623 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: speaking of things that we can simply not, we can 624 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:27,280 Speaker 1: simply not assault our senses constantly with advertisis. And because 625 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: advertising just continues to see this purpose of generating social divisions, 626 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: highlighting class divisions, and manipulating people into consuming stuff they 627 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: don't need. As a card carrying member of Generations Z, 628 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: I have not I do not typically watch much TV UM. 629 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 1: I used to watch TV because I'm the older gen 630 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: Z conting gent, but with the rise of streaming services 631 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: is UM, which I do not use. Yoho hoo. Is 632 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 1: I have to say about that? UM. I have not 633 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 1: watched much TV UM. But there's certain reality shoes that 634 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:19,839 Speaker 1: I enjoy, like the Amazing Race UM, and so those 635 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: sense we be showing on TV. I like Jeopardy. I 636 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: like to watch Jeopardy and the constant deeply unfunny, irritating, annoying, loud, 637 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: flashy barrage of commercials quite aggravating. UM. Honestly, the goal 638 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 1: in age of crucial is being funny. Was a long 639 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:50,719 Speaker 1: time ago and now it's just suits. One of the 640 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 1: things that I mentioned that in UM in the episode 641 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: that we had done on the Commons. One of the 642 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,879 Speaker 1: things that I one of the positions are held even 643 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: before I was an anarchist, was my opposition to the 644 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:08,280 Speaker 1: advertising industry to advertise it. I can't stand advertising everywhere 645 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 1: you walk, everybody, screw everything you watch and listen to, 646 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: it's also going to sell you something. Um. I would 647 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: love to be able to go outside and not see 648 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: ads all the time. I would love to use a 649 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 1: screwth of the incident without seeing ads all the time. Um. 650 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: And so getting really advertising industry getting rid of while 651 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: these ads are just pushing us to consume more and more, 652 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:36,840 Speaker 1: um and oftentimes just promoting a lot of really harmful 653 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:42,920 Speaker 1: societal ideas you know, um, body images, use and alcoholism 654 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of our worst practices and a lot 655 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: of really terrible things of being promoted through ads. And 656 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: so yeah, tear it down and watch consumerism perish. When 657 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: you think about really history the advertising industry and how 658 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: it came about as a mass communication student, um, that's 659 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: something that I would spend some time looking into. Advertising 660 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: really came about in response to you know, this need 661 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 1: that people had, really that that that that companies had 662 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: to get people to consume. Because in a lot of cases, 663 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, people would buy something and a newer model 664 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: would come out and it would really pay attention to 665 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: it because I already have the thing. I don't need 666 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: to get another thing. Um. But you know, you can't 667 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: run a profitable business that free. So they basically used 668 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: advertising to push people to consume more, and so we 669 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: need to get rid of the advertising industry. Another step 670 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: we can take towards the growth is to shift from 671 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 1: ownership to use. The fruct um usufruct is something that 672 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: Marie book Chin, social ecologist, talks a lot about um 673 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,239 Speaker 1: in his book The Ecology of Freed Them and it's 674 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: essentially the freedom of individuals or groups in a community 675 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,719 Speaker 1: to access and use, but not destroy, common resources to 676 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: supply their needs. The term use of fruct comes from 677 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: Roman property law, I believe, which should include use us 678 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: the right to use. Sorry, unfortunately I did not take 679 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: ladin yeah practice. It's just the right to enjoy the 680 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 1: fruit of one's property and abuse us which is the 681 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: right to destroy one's property. So use us fruct us 682 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: and abuse us um. And so use of fractice really 683 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,560 Speaker 1: the combination of the first two principles. Right to access 684 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 1: and use and enjoy the fruit of um commonly held 685 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: property without you the right to destroy it um, so 686 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: that everyone can supply their needs. So instead of and 687 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: I mean two libraries already a concept that it exists 688 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: around the world, rather than a hundred people in a 689 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: community each individually order an electric drill, UM, one person 690 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: or rather one library can host or three or four 691 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,879 Speaker 1: electric drills and effectively serve everyone's need for a drill 692 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,759 Speaker 1: when they need it, because unless you're a carpenter or 693 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 1: really into arts and crafts, you probably don't need an 694 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,319 Speaker 1: electric drill all the time. Another thing that we're really 695 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,840 Speaker 1: helping or push towards the growth will be getting rid 696 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,920 Speaker 1: of car dependency, because the consumption of vehicles, the mainstenence 697 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,799 Speaker 1: of vehicles, the maintenance of the infrastructure of vehicles, use 698 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,360 Speaker 1: all of those things requires a lot of resources, you know, 699 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: concrete and oil and gas and metals and great Earth minerals. 700 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,920 Speaker 1: And rather than forcing everyone to produce these things we 701 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: could consume those things, we can instead shift towards walkable 702 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 1: model for urban months UM so that people who do 703 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: need to use vehicles in rural settings, for example, can 704 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,919 Speaker 1: use them, and you can use them without causing unnecessarily 705 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 1: unnecessary harm contributing to unnecessary harm superfluous harm on the planet. UM. 706 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,200 Speaker 1: Getting rid of cor dependency would also mean that fewer 707 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: people would need vehicles, and vehicles that the few vehicles 708 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:29,720 Speaker 1: that we do produce UM can be shared in common 709 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,400 Speaker 1: to save needs that cannot be filled by like bikes 710 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: or you know, public transportation systems. Another element of deep 711 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: growth would really be the reduction of our energy material 712 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:48,400 Speaker 1: use through the transformation of our agriculture systems. It is 713 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,240 Speaker 1: true that we currently produce enough food for I believe 714 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,239 Speaker 1: ten billion people. A lot of that food is wasted. UM. 715 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: A lot of food doesn't reach people. UM. It's really 716 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:03,160 Speaker 1: an issue of alcation and not necessary production. But at 717 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:09,759 Speaker 1: the same time that production is extremely harmful. UM. It 718 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: relies on a lot of damaging chemicals, relies on the 719 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: stripping of our top soils, relies on the overuse of antibiotics, 720 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:27,759 Speaker 1: relies on the abuse of animals. UM. The way that 721 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: we currently feed the world is deeply unequal, extremely inefficient, 722 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,240 Speaker 1: environmentally degrading, and energy wasting. We cannot continue to treat 723 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: our farms like factories. We need to find we used 724 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 1: to feed ourselves densely and compatibly within the amounts the 725 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: living world. Scaling down to localized proma culture can help 726 00:53:53,880 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: change of based agricultural systems. Community supported agriculture, urban god aquaponics, 727 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:09,040 Speaker 1: cultured meats, aquacultures, and exploring other more traditional forms of 728 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: food raising will need to be the route that we take. Already, 729 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,480 Speaker 1: we are killing our soils, we are running out to 730 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:25,480 Speaker 1: the fossil fuels that UM, the agricultural industry relies on. 731 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,200 Speaker 1: And if we continue along the trajectory, we have a 732 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,759 Speaker 1: big storm coming. Yeah, probably the greatest famine the plant 733 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,759 Speaker 1: has ever seen on its way. If we do not 734 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: aim to build food autonomy, aim to rewild our ecologies, 735 00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:50,080 Speaker 1: aimed to reconfigure our consumption patterns or food production and 736 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:57,560 Speaker 1: consumption patterns two see quester more carbon to allocate two 737 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: more people to use healthier foods UM and to really 738 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,799 Speaker 1: to recover the earth. Another important stuff we can take 739 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: in the growth would be to get rid of what 740 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: scale down to, especially destructive industries. There is, of course agriculture. 741 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:23,840 Speaker 1: There is UM, the fossil fuels industry, the arms industry, 742 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: private jet industry, the automobile industry, the airline industries. All 743 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,360 Speaker 1: of these industries must either be slimmed down or gotten 744 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,839 Speaker 1: rid of UM because, as the pandemic has showing, very 745 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,160 Speaker 1: few of the jobs that are currently undertaken around the 746 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:46,880 Speaker 1: world are truly essential to maintain in the bare bones 747 00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,160 Speaker 1: of life. And of course we do need to reconfigure 748 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,239 Speaker 1: the way that we live or ways of life. You 749 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,920 Speaker 1: don't have to reflect ecological limits. But even with that reconfiguration, 750 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,440 Speaker 1: I think we know why industries needed and what on. Um. 751 00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: I always find it strange, This is, I guess a tangent. 752 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: I always find it strange that politicians are celebrated for 753 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 1: bracken about creating new jobs when in reality, I believe 754 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: and really the vision was in the twentieth century that 755 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,319 Speaker 1: we would reach a point where fewer and fewer people 756 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,239 Speaker 1: needed to work, and that we need to work for 757 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: less time. Um. And so that really is part of 758 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,120 Speaker 1: the aim of the growth, reviving that pursuit, reviving that 759 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: goal because we have reached the point where we can 760 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: um scale on the amount of time each Polson has 761 00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,879 Speaker 1: to work, skill on amounts of jobs that aren't necessary. Um. 762 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,640 Speaker 1: If you've read Bullshit Jobs by David Greeable, you'll see 763 00:56:51,680 --> 00:57:00,359 Speaker 1: that a lot of particularly service economy jobs ah practically worthless. Um. 764 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:04,319 Speaker 1: And I actually saw kind of funny video talking about 765 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 1: how at this point office culture is more of a religion. 766 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,239 Speaker 1: Yeah that's so good. Yeah, so that going and going around. 767 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: We can surrounds and Twitter. That was really funny. Um. 768 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,919 Speaker 1: But yeah, we just move around. A bunch of people 769 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 1: move around and round numbers. If you've seen, um, the 770 00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 1: show Succession, that Succession sufferance. Have you seen the shows Sufferance? UM, 771 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,040 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty much like an our slash anti work 772 00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 1: type show. UM. And so I think one more people 773 00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 1: are coming to the realization that hey, this kind of 774 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: sucks the fact that we have to work this much. 775 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,840 Speaker 1: So we need to reduce the amount of time we work, um, 776 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,600 Speaker 1: the type of work we need to change, type of 777 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: work we do. So it's a quantitative and qualitative shift 778 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,200 Speaker 1: um and something I spoke about in my view on 779 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 1: anti work or post work, whatever you want to call it. 780 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,040 Speaker 1: These changes, these steps to scale and total energy use, 781 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,880 Speaker 1: can be taken by a broad range of organizations, groups, 782 00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 1: mass movements, popular assemblies, unions, co operatives, not waiting for 783 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,479 Speaker 1: the state, but going beyond it. I think we've seen 784 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 1: by now. I think if you have not seen right now, 785 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,320 Speaker 1: it needs open your eyes. The state is not doing 786 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,000 Speaker 1: enough or in some cases not doing anything at all, 787 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,320 Speaker 1: to respond to these crises, and we need to take 788 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,840 Speaker 1: it into our own hands to do so. UM. I 789 00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:42,520 Speaker 1: have a video in store UM for December that as 790 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,080 Speaker 1: one of my patrons jokes might have the alphabet agencies 791 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:52,240 Speaker 1: after me. But there are a lot of different actions 792 00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,440 Speaker 1: that we can take UM to integrate the growth, to 793 00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 1: move towards a decro society, to de grow our economies, 794 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:07,520 Speaker 1: a combination of acts of confrontation and non cooperation and 795 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:14,800 Speaker 1: prefiguration in some de growth challenges the dominant growth imperative. 796 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 1: It's in the name. It is intentionally subversive in its 797 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,440 Speaker 1: title because it requires us to think about how we 798 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,840 Speaker 1: can collectively organize the restructure of all economy and the 799 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:34,160 Speaker 1: downscale of energy and resource use worldwide. The transition back 800 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:38,080 Speaker 1: into balance with the living will in a safe, just, 801 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:44,720 Speaker 1: an equitable way. The growth means striving for a self titude, 802 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,520 Speaker 1: life and dignity and abundance for all. The growth of 803 00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,320 Speaker 1: mean liberating ourselves not just from the ways that the 804 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: growth imperative has shaped out technologies education. The growth who 805 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,880 Speaker 1: require that we not just liberal it ourselves from the 806 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:05,520 Speaker 1: ways that the growth imperative has shaved our technologies and institutions, 807 01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:12,320 Speaker 1: but it demands if we also reconsider education, our cultural norms, 808 01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:19,200 Speaker 1: and values or identities or mindsets or relationships. It will 809 01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:26,200 Speaker 1: be a massive shift with anarchists called social revolution um, 810 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:31,320 Speaker 1: but it's one that is worthwhile. As some de growth 811 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: advocates would see, it's de growth by choice or de 812 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,600 Speaker 1: growth by force. What's the use of de growth here? 813 01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Has being used slightly differently, the growth by choice being 814 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:54,040 Speaker 1: like I described, collectively organized, democratically managed restructure of the 815 01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,560 Speaker 1: economy to bring into bounce that living will in a safe, 816 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,680 Speaker 1: just nequitable way um, whereas d growth by force is 817 01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:10,840 Speaker 1: more soon combination of austaritsy and apocalypse. So up to you. Yeah, well, 818 01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:15,080 Speaker 1: politics all politicive people. So there's there's a Japanese Marxist 819 01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,600 Speaker 1: named koh Saito who's been writing like a bunch of 820 01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:25,240 Speaker 1: stuff recently, who basically like he's been probably the biggest 821 01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,360 Speaker 1: voice of the growth in Japan. And his book Capital 822 01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,880 Speaker 1: on the Antipathyne is finally getting translated into English pretty soon, 823 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,000 Speaker 1: and so yeah, check that out when it comes out. 824 01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:40,480 Speaker 1: His stuff is really good, and he like basically has 825 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:45,520 Speaker 1: revived both Marxism and d growth in Japan. After Marxism 826 01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:51,160 Speaker 1: is kind of like implosion after a bunch of weird fairy. 827 01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:52,439 Speaker 1: Wait we we don't need to get into the story 828 01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,800 Speaker 1: of the claps of the Japanese Left. But yeah, that 829 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,880 Speaker 1: that that's coming. I'll check that out. Yeah yeah, I'm 830 01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,040 Speaker 1: looking forwards to that book when it comes out. Yeah, 831 01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,160 Speaker 1: me too. If you want to check out my videos 832 01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,440 Speaker 1: on this topic and others, just go to YouTube dot 833 01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,360 Speaker 1: com slash ANDREIDSM. You can also follow me on Twitter 834 01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: um while Twitter still exists on discloss and Drew and 835 01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,960 Speaker 1: you could potentially even support on patreonatre dot com slash 836 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:44,200 Speaker 1: sat true as it piece by could happen here. I 837 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,640 Speaker 1: don't know why I did that voice. I'm Robert Evans, 838 01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 1: host of a podcast that has many other hosts who 839 01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,000 Speaker 1: all are on the podcast right now. We have, in 840 01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: order of them being on my zoom screen, Chris Garres 841 01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:05,720 Speaker 1: and Sharene and James. Hey, everybody, how's it going? Good? Great? 842 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,640 Speaker 1: And we brought the full crew in to talk about 843 01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: the worst ship. So yeah, a whole bunch of kind 844 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,240 Speaker 1: of kind of not great things have happened the past week. 845 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:22,200 Speaker 1: So we took we took last week mostly off from 846 01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,000 Speaker 1: work due to a series of court cases, um and uh, 847 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,760 Speaker 1: thanks to an injunction we're allowed to podcast again, so 848 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,520 Speaker 1: I figured it would be we had a couple of 849 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,520 Speaker 1: I mean, horrifying stories break in a row, UM that 850 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,440 Speaker 1: we as the people we are, kind of had specific 851 01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,960 Speaker 1: bits of insight on that I think might help uh 852 01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 1: catch our listeners up to some maybe underappreciated aspects of 853 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:48,600 Speaker 1: some of the big stories of the last week. So 854 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 1: we wanted to start with the mass shooting in Colorado 855 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: Springs UM specifically talking about the family of the still 856 01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:02,160 Speaker 1: alleged but you know, definitely did it shooter, James, you 857 01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,240 Speaker 1: want to kick us off there. Yeah, I wanted to 858 01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,400 Speaker 1: start out with this UM so that the alleged shooter, 859 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,840 Speaker 1: it is called Anderson Lee old Rich, right, but comes 860 01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:16,360 Speaker 1: from an LDS Last Today saint family in San Diego, 861 01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,360 Speaker 1: And like I think everyone has probably seen this very 862 01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,640 Speaker 1: viral thirty second clip of his father that went around 863 01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,760 Speaker 1: Twitter and butt be to day after the shooting, and 864 01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,480 Speaker 1: his dad, just so we're super clear on this, says 865 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,440 Speaker 1: some disgusting things and there's a piece of ship for 866 01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,520 Speaker 1: saying them. I don't want to excuse any of the ship, 867 01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,240 Speaker 1: he said. I also don't want to excuse the way 868 01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,040 Speaker 1: that that was cut because I think it was pretty 869 01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:44,480 Speaker 1: pretty shitty, Like there are people we should be really 870 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,800 Speaker 1: fucking angry at, and his father is one of them. 871 01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:51,760 Speaker 1: But his father didn't excuse the shooting. And if you 872 01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:53,600 Speaker 1: look at that eight minute interview, he says that, like 873 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,040 Speaker 1: what happened was wrong, etcetera, etcetera. And there are people 874 01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,040 Speaker 1: who have excused the shooting, right, Like I think Chris 875 01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,880 Speaker 1: is going to speak to something Temple Tucker Carlson, people 876 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,440 Speaker 1: who created a climate where this happened and have asked 877 01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,360 Speaker 1: for it to happen again and are asking continually for 878 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,200 Speaker 1: it to happen again. His dad didn't do that again, 879 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,320 Speaker 1: his dad, His dad doesn't seem to have been a 880 01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,240 Speaker 1: great dad, right. His dad was was like using when 881 01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,320 Speaker 1: he was a kid. His dad was abusive. What is 882 01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,280 Speaker 1: his violence? I think we all know lots of people 883 01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,320 Speaker 1: who were raised in those climates who didn't go on 884 01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:26,720 Speaker 1: to shoot up a nightclub. And it just kind of 885 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,360 Speaker 1: I saw something. I don't know. I was upset by 886 01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,440 Speaker 1: the response to that in a sense because like I 887 01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:37,400 Speaker 1: know so many people who come from from families and 888 01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,760 Speaker 1: homes like that, and I like being like, oh, he 889 01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,000 Speaker 1: was doomed to be this way because of how his 890 01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,600 Speaker 1: dad was just like isn't I don't know. It just 891 01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:47,560 Speaker 1: upset me. It's not the response we need, you know, 892 01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,200 Speaker 1: Like I think we should hold like hold what his 893 01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:52,920 Speaker 1: dad said, like hold his dad to account of what 894 01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,880 Speaker 1: he said, but also not like allow that to explain. Yes, 895 01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,960 Speaker 1: I have a couple I like, I have confused feelings 896 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,840 Speaker 1: on it because his dad does go into a long 897 01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,439 Speaker 1: thing where he says, you know, you shouldn't there's nothing 898 01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,200 Speaker 1: that justifies violence. You know, these people's lives were precious, 899 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:10,040 Speaker 1: All lives are precious. But he also was like I 900 01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: taught him that violence was a great way to solve problems, 901 01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:18,000 Speaker 1: um and you know, expresses that he was glad to 902 01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,919 Speaker 1: learn that his son wasn't gay, And I don't, Yeah, 903 01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't Yeah, I don't know how 904 01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,120 Speaker 1: much I want to like interpret that as he really 905 01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,920 Speaker 1: meant what he said about nothing justifying this in those 906 01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,600 Speaker 1: people's lives being precious, because that is kind of this 907 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:36,960 Speaker 1: thing that like you get on the and this guy 908 01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,120 Speaker 1: is obviously not a thought leader on the Christian right, 909 01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,240 Speaker 1: not like he's not like a luminary. I don't think 910 01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,000 Speaker 1: he contributed outside of you know, the things he may 911 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:48,160 Speaker 1: have raised his son to believe to the broader national 912 01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,560 Speaker 1: climate of of hate right now, there's just a study 913 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,960 Speaker 1: that was released today that UM from the Armed Conflict 914 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Location and Event Data Project Data confirms that anti LGBT 915 01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:01,760 Speaker 1: mobilization is now the leading driver or a fire right 916 01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,720 Speaker 1: protest activity in the US. Obviously, this guy didn't make 917 01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:09,280 Speaker 1: that happen, UM, but I noticed a similarity between like 918 01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: the I there's nothing worse than my kid being gay, 919 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,200 Speaker 1: but also when a bad thing gets done by a 920 01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,360 Speaker 1: Christian to gay people, well, their lives are still precious. 921 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,840 Speaker 1: We just like hate what they how they live them. Um, 922 01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:24,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know how where to where 923 01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,400 Speaker 1: to go further with that, but you're right that like 924 01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,960 Speaker 1: that the thirty second clip is very dishonestly edited in 925 01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,760 Speaker 1: order to like, UM cut out a lot of what 926 01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:35,600 Speaker 1: this guy was saying, which I have a problem with 927 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,160 Speaker 1: regardless of who you're doing it too. Yeah, it's just 928 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,439 Speaker 1: it's bad journalism, And like I would rather we point 929 01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:43,080 Speaker 1: out rage at the people who are going to make 930 01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,880 Speaker 1: this happen again unless we stop them. Yeah, like this guy, 931 01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm this guy had the degree to which this guy 932 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,840 Speaker 1: contributed to this massacre by being this dude's dad. Um, 933 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,120 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anyone else he's going to push 934 01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,480 Speaker 1: into killing if if he indeed did that, whereas people 935 01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:03,120 Speaker 1: like to pool are going to continue to do that. Yeah. 936 01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:07,360 Speaker 1: And also I do want to say, like, like the 937 01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:10,080 Speaker 1: Mormon Church does not get a pass for this. Yeah, 938 01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:15,200 Speaker 1: like that No, absolutely believably homophobic, Like absolutely, he's a 939 01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,519 Speaker 1: ship super racist, like yeah, and you know a lot 940 01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:20,840 Speaker 1: of people really haven't been talking about this, and they 941 01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,800 Speaker 1: should because they fucking suck And yeah, this is this 942 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,840 Speaker 1: is a you know, like, yeah, it turns out when 943 01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,320 Speaker 1: you have a bunch of people like giving sermons about 944 01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,840 Speaker 1: fucking musket balls, like this is what happens. Yeah, you 945 01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:34,280 Speaker 1: know they don't they don't get off the hook for 946 01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:37,880 Speaker 1: this either. No, And they're like domination of politics in 947 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,960 Speaker 1: some areas, it really needs to be seriously looked at, 948 01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:43,880 Speaker 1: talking of like domination of politics. I do want to 949 01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,200 Speaker 1: talk about his grandfather a little bit, yep, because his 950 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:52,479 Speaker 1: grandfather is bonkers. So his grandfather is called Randy vocal 951 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,000 Speaker 1: Uh might be pronounced verpal um, but he's he was 952 01:08:56,120 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 1: mayor of Santi. So Santi is a town east of 953 01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,360 Speaker 1: San Diego. It's not not very far. He's I think 954 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:06,439 Speaker 1: Sharenia probably familiar with Santia, right, Yeah, Santi is a 955 01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:10,439 Speaker 1: place that's that's about ye about it. People sometimes called 956 01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:15,080 Speaker 1: it clanned. He definitely like Metzka was there for a while, right. 957 01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:19,320 Speaker 1: And when Vopal was mayor in two thousand and one, 958 01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:23,360 Speaker 1: there was a school shooting in Santi about which he spoke. 959 01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:25,240 Speaker 1: He hasn't spoken about this one yet at all. He's 960 01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:31,439 Speaker 1: he's yeah, strange, that strange. He's pretty much gone, which 961 01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,479 Speaker 1: is not like it when this guy speaks, he uh, 962 01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,719 Speaker 1: he rarely helps himself when when he speaks to media 963 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:41,920 Speaker 1: who don't agree with every position he's on. So I 964 01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:44,320 Speaker 1: want like, I want to ground like he became mayor 965 01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,920 Speaker 1: of Santi in two thousand. In nine, a black marine 966 01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:50,880 Speaker 1: by the name of Carlos Colbert, who was a large 967 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,479 Speaker 1: corporate in the Marine Corps, was beaten and paralyzed by 968 01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 1: five white men at Memorial Day party in Santy. Like 969 01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:01,840 Speaker 1: and that doesn't represent the whole town, but was how 970 01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,040 Speaker 1: people thought of that town. And in the early two thousands, right, 971 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,280 Speaker 1: the place it was always a place to avoid it, like, 972 01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,720 Speaker 1: you don't really want to go there. I don't know. Yeah, 973 01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,200 Speaker 1: I have friends who still don't want to go to 974 01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:15,639 Speaker 1: Santi like um. I have friends who are like delivery 975 01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:19,000 Speaker 1: drivers who are like black people who have been told 976 01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,360 Speaker 1: like they used to not saying black folks deliver into 977 01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,160 Speaker 1: Santi like. It definitely has whether or not that's the 978 01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:28,799 Speaker 1: case now it's becoming more more diverse, I think, like ethnically, 979 01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,080 Speaker 1: but it certainly has a reputation of being a place 980 01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:35,519 Speaker 1: where it's not safe. And this is a place that 981 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,559 Speaker 1: elects him as mayor in two thousand right too, thousand one, 982 01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:43,200 Speaker 1: they have a high school shooting, and he just kind 983 01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:47,799 Speaker 1: of continues to spout some absolutely crazy stuff. It's probably 984 01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:52,439 Speaker 1: worth noting that he's not as like, far from the 985 01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,960 Speaker 1: like the norm of the GOP, which is still a 986 01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,519 Speaker 1: long way from like good when it comes to like 987 01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:01,800 Speaker 1: l g BTQ stuff, as he is for other things 988 01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,800 Speaker 1: like his His probably his most famous crazy position is 989 01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,439 Speaker 1: that climate change is good because most of our enemies 990 01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:11,599 Speaker 1: live in I'm quoting now, most of our enemies live 991 01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,519 Speaker 1: in hot climates, desert climates. It will probably have a 992 01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,000 Speaker 1: negative effect on their environment. Most of the Muslim nations 993 01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:23,439 Speaker 1: are in hot areas of the world. Honestly, Yeah, just 994 01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,960 Speaker 1: absolutely incredible. Did we did we find the world's first 995 01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:34,800 Speaker 1: pro eco fascist? Yea fascist. I have met a few 996 01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,760 Speaker 1: anti there's people who are pro climate change because it will. 997 01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:42,720 Speaker 1: But this is this is like a whole other level. Well, 998 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:46,840 Speaker 1: there's dry us out weird. Do you want to know 999 01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:51,519 Speaker 1: why he thinks this climate change happens? Good God. I 1000 01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,040 Speaker 1: believe about one percent of climate change is impacted by 1001 01:11:54,160 --> 01:12:00,360 Speaker 1: human beings. The rest of that should not rest in rest, buddy. 1002 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:04,599 Speaker 1: It's solar cycles, quote, the natural wobbling of the earth 1003 01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:11,760 Speaker 1: and volcanic activities. Ah, this is this is the classic. Yeah, yeah, 1004 01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:15,000 Speaker 1: there's there's a couple of good ones. I I personally 1005 01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,519 Speaker 1: partial to. We didn't have enough CEO two and climate 1006 01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:20,600 Speaker 1: change is the only thing that's going to save us 1007 01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:26,519 Speaker 1: from the CEO to shortage that. Yeah. Notable Other vocal 1008 01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:29,960 Speaker 1: bangers include I'm getting attacked out here by the Vietcong 1009 01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:37,040 Speaker 1: stealing my copper, and I don't like it that. It 1010 01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,600 Speaker 1: would be super funny if it turned out that the 1011 01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:43,320 Speaker 1: Vietcong had sent like a deep cover special spec opsy 1012 01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:46,320 Speaker 1: in it to California just to funk with this guy's copper, 1013 01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:56,760 Speaker 1: to pull copper just uh good, Um, it's just it's 1014 01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,519 Speaker 1: just a yeah, just a powerful example of happened? Did 1015 01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:05,680 Speaker 1: you lick lead paint? Like? Just an incredible boomer. So 1016 01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,479 Speaker 1: he was voted out in by a considerable match I 1017 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:14,599 Speaker 1: think got about thank god, sorry this this so he's 1018 01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:20,000 Speaker 1: serving out. He just got voted out. Yeah, twenty years. 1019 01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: How many he moved in? I think sixteen he moved 1020 01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:33,160 Speaker 1: into the California Assembly, so representing like this this yeah, yeah, 1021 01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:39,720 Speaker 1: statewide office. This is there on the left coast California. 1022 01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,800 Speaker 1: It is It means one thing to people who have 1023 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:44,920 Speaker 1: never been to the West coast, but have you been 1024 01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:47,880 Speaker 1: to the west coast? The conservative parts of California like 1025 01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,439 Speaker 1: the Republican Party. They're massive, and the Republican Party has 1026 01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,160 Speaker 1: absolutely locked in control. It is very difficult to remove 1027 01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:59,120 Speaker 1: to move them in places like there's there's more Republican 1028 01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:04,320 Speaker 1: voters in California the most states most Yes. Yeah, if 1029 01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:08,040 Speaker 1: you wanted a slice of of like eastern California, just 1030 01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:11,080 Speaker 1: check out a Riverside County shore with jad Bianco's Instagram, 1031 01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,200 Speaker 1: where he mostly just rides around on a horse and 1032 01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:18,840 Speaker 1: criticizes COVID restrictions. But yeah, this is. Yeah, it's really 1033 01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,960 Speaker 1: something incredible poster. But this is I think an insight 1034 01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:26,479 Speaker 1: into like this side of California that people. It doesn't 1035 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:28,120 Speaker 1: mean that everyone who lives in this county, of course 1036 01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:30,120 Speaker 1: is bigoted or racist, and there are lots of very 1037 01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:32,360 Speaker 1: nice kind people in his county. I know there are 1038 01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:37,400 Speaker 1: some anarchist communites out there, but um yeah, this vocal 1039 01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,439 Speaker 1: claims he hasn't spoken to his grandson for years. But 1040 01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,240 Speaker 1: this guy has been spouting this ship for twenty years, 1041 01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:45,639 Speaker 1: right like he became mayor of Santi in two thousand. 1042 01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:48,800 Speaker 1: That was when this shooter, old Rich was born. So 1043 01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,479 Speaker 1: like for his entire life, Vocal has been saying stuff 1044 01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:56,040 Speaker 1: like the conga stealing my copper. I mean it is 1045 01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,680 Speaker 1: it is true that this this person did grow up 1046 01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:05,240 Speaker 1: surroun ounded by a constant bubble of of homophobic rhetoric, 1047 01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,600 Speaker 1: dehumanizing rhetoric, and that that does shape the person that 1048 01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:12,760 Speaker 1: you are. Obviously that doesn't it doesn't mean you're going 1049 01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:14,200 Speaker 1: to go do the best shooting. There's lots of people 1050 01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:15,840 Speaker 1: who grow up in those environments who turn out to 1051 01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:19,960 Speaker 1: be very wonderful people. Um but but but yeah, that 1052 01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,400 Speaker 1: is definitely like the environment that you are raised in 1053 01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:28,240 Speaker 1: and around obviously doesn't obviously affects who you're gonna be. 1054 01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:33,000 Speaker 1: And yeah this the shooters posting like burning a Pride 1055 01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:37,040 Speaker 1: flag on on his very limited social media presence, right, 1056 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,080 Speaker 1: and every time his granted had the chance, he's voted 1057 01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:44,639 Speaker 1: against rights. Yeah, he was raised in an environment where 1058 01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:49,080 Speaker 1: hatred of LGBTQ people was not just like present, but 1059 01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:53,200 Speaker 1: was used as the justification regularly for like legislative action. 1060 01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,400 Speaker 1: And he was also raised in an environment where all 1061 01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:58,680 Speaker 1: of them in around him would have praised violence in 1062 01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,599 Speaker 1: different ways, And the fact that he wound up doing 1063 01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:06,960 Speaker 1: violence against the queer community is not like surprising. Yeah. Yeah, 1064 01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:09,840 Speaker 1: wasn't his dad also like an m M A fighter, Yes, 1065 01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:14,479 Speaker 1: UFC UFC whatever some yes, some sort of combat sport. 1066 01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:17,360 Speaker 1: He's also in a bunch of playing movies, a lot 1067 01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:19,519 Speaker 1: of poor movies, because I think a lot of things 1068 01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:23,080 Speaker 1: were normalized that we're just like, maybe not for other people. Yeah, 1069 01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:25,600 Speaker 1: that is a man who has no barrier between the 1070 01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:27,840 Speaker 1: two sides of his nose due to a lifetime of 1071 01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:31,800 Speaker 1: snorting every single uh chemical he can possibly get his 1072 01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:37,240 Speaker 1: hands on. Um, not that there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, 1073 01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,920 Speaker 1: his dad doesn't seem to be like entirely lucid into you. 1074 01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:44,519 Speaker 1: Um well, And the other aspect of this is that 1075 01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,599 Speaker 1: the shooter in Colorado was like a known figure as well. 1076 01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:53,120 Speaker 1: He wasn't He wasn't a nobody like people had. He 1077 01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:57,000 Speaker 1: did like a bomb threat last year, there was off 1078 01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,120 Speaker 1: with the police where he was in armor threatening to 1079 01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,240 Speaker 1: go out shooting. Yeah, that's I was really I'm really 1080 01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,639 Speaker 1: hoping the conversation shifts more towards him as a person, 1081 01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 1: because I can only blame the family so much, you know. 1082 01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,960 Speaker 1: I He's done some terrible things, and I think that's 1083 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,960 Speaker 1: getting glossed over by the fact that he has people 1084 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,120 Speaker 1: in his family that are questionable. And I think the 1085 01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,040 Speaker 1: number one thing we should be pointing out, because I 1086 01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,000 Speaker 1: also don't believe we should be focusing entirely on his 1087 01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:27,920 Speaker 1: specific actions. We should be focusing on the fact that 1088 01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,760 Speaker 1: it would have been incredibly easy to stop this guy. 1089 01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,880 Speaker 1: He was the most obvious candidate for a mass shooting imaginable, 1090 01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:38,320 Speaker 1: um and nothing was done to stop this. Like that's that. 1091 01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:43,080 Speaker 1: The answer is that like whiteness is very helpful when 1092 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:48,080 Speaker 1: it comes to hate. But yeah, and with crime and 1093 01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:50,400 Speaker 1: all of the time I've been following mass shooters, I 1094 01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:54,040 Speaker 1: can't think of one that more directly talked about wanting 1095 01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:55,680 Speaker 1: to do a mass shooting in a way that was 1096 01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:58,320 Speaker 1: immediately obvious to all of the law enforcement in his 1097 01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:01,040 Speaker 1: area and had already forced to response from them. There 1098 01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:04,439 Speaker 1: was absolutely And again for talking about his gun control 1099 01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,320 Speaker 1: always comes up in this. Colorado has red flag laws, 1100 01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:11,040 Speaker 1: like Colorado has the restrictions people say should be but 1101 01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:13,479 Speaker 1: the problem is that none of them were actually used 1102 01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:18,120 Speaker 1: against him, um anyway, And I think comes back to 1103 01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:22,400 Speaker 1: like again, the problem, like one of the largest problems 1104 01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:25,439 Speaker 1: again with gun regulation is that you you're relying on 1105 01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:29,560 Speaker 1: the police to enforce and the cops believe of the 1106 01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:33,679 Speaker 1: same ship that this guy does. So you know, yeah, 1107 01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:36,680 Speaker 1: they again letting these people come to pride like this, 1108 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,200 Speaker 1: this is gonna great, go great for you. They just 1109 01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,599 Speaker 1: assumed he was an excitable boy and it was gonna 1110 01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:43,639 Speaker 1: be you know, he just needed to get it out 1111 01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:45,680 Speaker 1: of the system. That time he had a standoff with 1112 01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:47,960 Speaker 1: the police over a bomb threat where he talked to 1113 01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,120 Speaker 1: his mom about wanting to go out as a mass shooter. 1114 01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:59,519 Speaker 1: Like most yeah, yeah, should we should we take a break? Yeah, 1115 01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:04,400 Speaker 1: we should do you know what else? Nope, any, nope, 1116 01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:09,479 Speaker 1: it's just to break. Yeah, do some insulin. We're back. 1117 01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:14,320 Speaker 1: I hope everyone took insulin um everybody. It'll I don't 1118 01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:20,280 Speaker 1: know what it'll do. Look very hungry to sleepy and 1119 01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,920 Speaker 1: hungry pilled look James. As a podcaster, it's my job 1120 01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:26,120 Speaker 1: to tell people to take medicine, not to have any 1121 01:19:26,160 --> 01:19:29,000 Speaker 1: responsibility for what happens when they do. Well, I'm just 1122 01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:31,800 Speaker 1: gonna go fly up to Canada and get some free 1123 01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:37,840 Speaker 1: insulin and then come back smuggle it down that actually yeah, yeah, 1124 01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,200 Speaker 1: maybe consider just have them fill up your car. What 1125 01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:43,320 Speaker 1: are we talking about next? So I want to I 1126 01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:45,840 Speaker 1: want to talk a bit about the reaction to this 1127 01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:50,760 Speaker 1: on the right, because this is something okay, so like 1128 01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:54,519 Speaker 1: the far right's reaction to mass shootings has never been good, 1129 01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:59,120 Speaker 1: Like it's usually been like, oh, this is this is 1130 01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:03,400 Speaker 1: still unfortunate that it had mental illness. This is like 1131 01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:07,280 Speaker 1: the pills something like they are just pretty Here's the thing. 1132 01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:09,880 Speaker 1: When I originally did this, right, I had a Timpool 1133 01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:12,360 Speaker 1: tweet that I had pulled, and then he made like 1134 01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:14,920 Speaker 1: every successive time we're about to record this episode, he 1135 01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:18,600 Speaker 1: had he makes another even worst so here here is 1136 01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:21,479 Speaker 1: here is the most recently. First, I do want to 1137 01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:23,560 Speaker 1: we have to. One of the things I want to 1138 01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:25,400 Speaker 1: try to keep in mind is we are more online 1139 01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,320 Speaker 1: than a decent chunk of our audience. Tim Pool is 1140 01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:32,920 Speaker 1: a guy who attained prominence uh live streaming during the 1141 01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:37,080 Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street rallies. He kind of framed himself as 1142 01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:41,200 Speaker 1: a broadly progressive kind of liberal uh journalists. But he's 1143 01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,240 Speaker 1: like a skateboarder and he's doing ship. You know, he's 1144 01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:45,800 Speaker 1: live streaming a lot. He's doing, you know, experimenting with 1145 01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:48,840 Speaker 1: all these like novel ways of covering the news at 1146 01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:52,360 Speaker 1: the time, you know, we're talking like two thousand twelve. Um. Obviously, 1147 01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:54,320 Speaker 1: people since then have pointed out that, like he was 1148 01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:57,160 Speaker 1: kind of a giant dick. It occupied and I know 1149 01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:01,360 Speaker 1: people who were there who fucking hated him, Like, um, 1150 01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:05,600 Speaker 1: he he had a big platform. As a result of that, 1151 01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:08,880 Speaker 1: he got hired by Vice for a little while. Um. 1152 01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:11,559 Speaker 1: Most serious journalists who have worked with him will point 1153 01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:14,559 Speaker 1: out that, like he's a giant asshole and like kind 1154 01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:18,000 Speaker 1: of not good at anything, and it's not very smart, 1155 01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,280 Speaker 1: doesn't really know what's going on, or deliberately obtuse I've 1156 01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:26,000 Speaker 1: heard people like anyway, Uh, he gained prominence as he 1157 01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:29,080 Speaker 1: kind of increasingly through the Trump years would lean in 1158 01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:32,000 Speaker 1: on hard right stuff while still claiming to be liberal 1159 01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:35,360 Speaker 1: and progressive, and just that he was increasingly lost by 1160 01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:40,680 Speaker 1: the progressives who have gotten anyway, he's just gone. So 1161 01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,000 Speaker 1: that he's he has a huge audience. He does a 1162 01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,479 Speaker 1: lot of like live streaming. So the primary way that 1163 01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:47,640 Speaker 1: like when I say that he used to do live 1164 01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:50,360 Speaker 1: streaming where he would show up at a thing. He's rich. 1165 01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:53,519 Speaker 1: Now he doesn't leave his his house in Maryland. He 1166 01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:56,800 Speaker 1: sits there and he like plays clips from the news 1167 01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,920 Speaker 1: and other people and then talks about them really usually 1168 01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:06,120 Speaker 1: wrong for commentary on it and has millions and millions 1169 01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:10,960 Speaker 1: of followers, and it's constantly and continues to platform people 1170 01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:15,240 Speaker 1: who are self described fascists, uh, far right people. Um, 1171 01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:18,840 Speaker 1: he's kind of he's like a he's like a vector 1172 01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:23,840 Speaker 1: point in that whole. He's very large, he's fairly influential 1173 01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:28,920 Speaker 1: within the social media algorithm of particularly Twitter. Um, he's 1174 01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:31,599 Speaker 1: able like his his he's able to get ship trending 1175 01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:34,000 Speaker 1: a lot on Twitter. So he's not someone you can 1176 01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:36,760 Speaker 1: entirely ignore. He hasn't he has an impact on like 1177 01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:40,080 Speaker 1: national discourse, and he's a lot of people on the 1178 01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,559 Speaker 1: right see him as a valuable person. He's had Alex 1179 01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,800 Speaker 1: Jones on he's hanging out with Kanye and Nick Fuintes now, 1180 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:47,200 Speaker 1: which is what we're about to talk about. But the 1181 01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:51,360 Speaker 1: thing since, uh, since the Colorado Spring shooting, he's gone 1182 01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,040 Speaker 1: kind of completely mask off about the groomery thing, and 1183 01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:56,720 Speaker 1: most of his comments have been along the lines of like, well, 1184 01:22:56,760 --> 01:22:59,240 Speaker 1: these people were hosting a groomer event and so violence 1185 01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:01,519 Speaker 1: was inevitable. Yeah, and I mean like like what like 1186 01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:03,200 Speaker 1: that's something I mean, I'm just gonna read one those 1187 01:23:03,200 --> 01:23:05,840 Speaker 1: tweets to give like that that's that's not an exaggeration 1188 01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:07,880 Speaker 1: or any kind of reading of subtext. Literally what he 1189 01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,040 Speaker 1: said was quote it seems around ten pm, Club Que 1190 01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:13,280 Speaker 1: posted that they were having an all ages drag show 1191 01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:15,880 Speaker 1: the next day. About two hours later, the shooter came in. 1192 01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,120 Speaker 1: People keep calling for wood chippers, and this is what happens, 1193 01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:21,559 Speaker 1: like open like and this has been this a been 1194 01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:23,160 Speaker 1: a thing across the entire right, Like they're just there's 1195 01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:27,280 Speaker 1: openly either like very very openly celebrating this or you 1196 01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:29,280 Speaker 1: get you know, like this is one of like one 1197 01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:33,040 Speaker 1: of the things that because the gays are so degenerated, 1198 01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:37,080 Speaker 1: like Jimmy fucking Door has gone like just completely like 1199 01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:40,120 Speaker 1: like I literally started with like it started this thing 1200 01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:42,760 Speaker 1: on this with a giant rant about how like how 1201 01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,000 Speaker 1: like disgusting it is that like drag queens around kids. 1202 01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:49,240 Speaker 1: It's like they they are just openly into full scale 1203 01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:51,920 Speaker 1: just openly into the like we need to get these 1204 01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:58,400 Speaker 1: people killed. In some ways the most horrifying instant like 1205 01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:02,519 Speaker 1: this because this is the first time that the reaction 1206 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:06,000 Speaker 1: widely on the right has been either this was a 1207 01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:09,559 Speaker 1: good thing, or this was this this obviously was going 1208 01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:13,000 Speaker 1: to happen because gay people are evil and are grooming children, 1209 01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:16,439 Speaker 1: so violence has to happen against them, and like that 1210 01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:21,200 Speaker 1: is that was That's such a popular sentiment on the 1211 01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:23,960 Speaker 1: right in the aftermath of the shooting, whether it's whether 1212 01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:28,080 Speaker 1: it's implied and whispered or whether it's just said completely outright, 1213 01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:31,080 Speaker 1: like it was a very clear consensus that this is 1214 01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:35,120 Speaker 1: what the Republican reaction was going to be, and anyone 1215 01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:37,800 Speaker 1: farther right of the Republicans like it. It wasn't it 1216 01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:39,720 Speaker 1: wasn't even just like a Nazi talking point it was 1217 01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:43,479 Speaker 1: just like regular Republicans in office, we're talking about this 1218 01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:47,640 Speaker 1: this style of rhetoric in response to the shooting. And 1219 01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,799 Speaker 1: for that reason, it's kind of the most horrifying instant 1220 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:55,839 Speaker 1: we've had, um because you know, like in the aftermath 1221 01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:58,599 Speaker 1: of like the Pulse shooting, we did not have rhetoric 1222 01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:01,400 Speaker 1: like this mainstreamed in way that it is happening for 1223 01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:04,280 Speaker 1: the club Que shooting. It was a very very different 1224 01:25:04,320 --> 01:25:07,920 Speaker 1: response to the to the Pulse shooting. Also probably because 1225 01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:14,960 Speaker 1: the shooter there wasn't white, um, so they had yeah, 1226 01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:17,439 Speaker 1: they'd be like, no, the problem here was immigration, right, 1227 01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,519 Speaker 1: and no for this, like he's like, he is obviously 1228 01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:23,880 Speaker 1: a white dude. Um, his lawyers are pulling bullshit to 1229 01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,280 Speaker 1: get his hate crime charges pulled, but like it's obviously 1230 01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:32,439 Speaker 1: it's it's obviously this white guy. And the rights responses, Yeah, 1231 01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:35,120 Speaker 1: he was probably justified in doing what he did. And 1232 01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:37,560 Speaker 1: I feel like they're setting him up to be the 1233 01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:40,320 Speaker 1: next Kyle Rittenhouse where like he's just gonna become like 1234 01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:45,040 Speaker 1: this kid celebrity that I don't know if we're there yet. Yeah, 1235 01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:48,800 Speaker 1: partly because he got the ship kicked out of him. Um, 1236 01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:53,680 Speaker 1: but I finished, no, not by police by a translator, 1237 01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:57,240 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think you've made a good point. Like 1238 01:25:57,560 --> 01:25:59,960 Speaker 1: what they did get away with some ship with Written 1239 01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:02,719 Speaker 1: House that like I think they would not have pulled 1240 01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:05,479 Speaker 1: even five years before that, Like I think you wouldn't 1241 01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:08,040 Speaker 1: have found in people being like, yeah, he shot people 1242 01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:10,760 Speaker 1: in the street and this is good fuck them And 1243 01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:16,160 Speaker 1: it is like the slippery slipt fallacy isn't always a fallacy, 1244 01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,639 Speaker 1: but like you know, once you start there, I don't 1245 01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,000 Speaker 1: think it's a massive leap to being like, yeah, this 1246 01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:23,360 Speaker 1: kid shot queer people in the nightclub and that's what 1247 01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,160 Speaker 1: they had coming, even if they don't make him a hero, 1248 01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:28,679 Speaker 1: Like I do think that that like the Overton window 1249 01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:31,519 Speaker 1: moved with Written House and it's moving again with this 1250 01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,720 Speaker 1: little fucker. Yeah, I think he's slightly too toxic to 1251 01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:39,479 Speaker 1: to go through that same celebrity status that Written Houses. Um. 1252 01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:42,240 Speaker 1: He also I can't speak. I think he's been like 1253 01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:46,120 Speaker 1: in his court appearances, he's like not capable. I think 1254 01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:49,240 Speaker 1: he's saying got eaten very badly to ship, which is 1255 01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:51,920 Speaker 1: the thing that you get the thing that scares me 1256 01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:57,200 Speaker 1: as like a potential Written House event, but kind of 1257 01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:00,880 Speaker 1: in the in the antique weird mesh shooter vibe is 1258 01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:05,040 Speaker 1: like you have some father or something who's separated from 1259 01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:09,040 Speaker 1: the kid and their other parent takes them to a 1260 01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:11,719 Speaker 1: drag queen event and dad shows up and start shooting, 1261 01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:13,839 Speaker 1: and like that's a thing that's a lot of easier 1262 01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:16,639 Speaker 1: to get the right to pile on. Yeah, that's that's 1263 01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:19,799 Speaker 1: the instance where that person now becomes a cultural figure 1264 01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:23,759 Speaker 1: in this way. That's more similar to what has happened 1265 01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:27,080 Speaker 1: with Rittenhouse. Um, and that just is like the hell scenario. 1266 01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:29,679 Speaker 1: And I think the other important thing is like they're 1267 01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:31,680 Speaker 1: deliberately trying to incite this, Like this is this is 1268 01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:34,840 Speaker 1: deliberate and like and there's an interesting thing like Nick 1269 01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:36,760 Speaker 1: Flints had this interviewing. I mean this is partially just 1270 01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:38,519 Speaker 1: this is just who fucking Nick flintys is. We had 1271 01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,400 Speaker 1: this thing after the election where he was like, uh, well, 1272 01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:43,160 Speaker 1: I'm like we we can we we we we like 1273 01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:45,519 Speaker 1: we we can't we can't take power by like like 1274 01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:47,519 Speaker 1: we we we can't actually get our agenda by voting. 1275 01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:49,519 Speaker 1: We have to do it by like theocratic fascism, right, 1276 01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:52,400 Speaker 1: and and I you know, okay, so obviously this is 1277 01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:54,599 Speaker 1: Nick Flints, but I think this is part of what's 1278 01:27:54,640 --> 01:27:58,599 Speaker 1: happening right now, which is that the reason that they're 1279 01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,040 Speaker 1: doing this, right, the reason that right now, the thing 1280 01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:03,320 Speaker 1: that they're trying to do was inside a jettocide is 1281 01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:06,160 Speaker 1: because they're fucking losing everything. They know it, right. Every 1282 01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,120 Speaker 1: single day, church attendance drops. It's been dropping for twenty years. 1283 01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:12,840 Speaker 1: It's never coming back, like nine eleven didn't do it, 1284 01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:15,040 Speaker 1: like Trump didn't do it. Nothing, Nothing is ever going 1285 01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:17,719 Speaker 1: to bring people back to these churches, like unless maybe 1286 01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:19,880 Speaker 1: they solve their sexual assault problem, but that's not like 1287 01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:23,360 Speaker 1: they structurally can't do that, right, So, you know, every 1288 01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:25,880 Speaker 1: single day religiosity drops in this country, every single like 1289 01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,599 Speaker 1: every single day, very slowly, and we have been doing 1290 01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:31,000 Speaker 1: this roughly for about fifteen years. Now we are winning, 1291 01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:33,920 Speaker 1: and this is what they're fucking terrified of, right, They 1292 01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:36,880 Speaker 1: have to move right now, like exactly in this moment 1293 01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:39,200 Speaker 1: is the is the moment they could exterminate us. If 1294 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:41,640 Speaker 1: they wait any longer, they're fucked because they're you know, 1295 01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:44,360 Speaker 1: the base for this kind of sort of like like 1296 01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:47,720 Speaker 1: this specific kind of of Christian fascism isn't going to 1297 01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:51,120 Speaker 1: be there, like there will be other fascisms, but you know, 1298 01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:54,040 Speaker 1: every every every single day that they fucking wait, like 1299 01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:57,560 Speaker 1: another person leaves the church, and so you know, like 1300 01:28:57,840 --> 01:28:59,760 Speaker 1: right now, and you know, and they can't do it 1301 01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:02,040 Speaker 1: all totally right. We just saw that they got fucking 1302 01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:04,680 Speaker 1: destroyed trying to lean into the ship. Because and then 1303 01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:06,200 Speaker 1: this is the ever thing, right, like the everything that's 1304 01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:07,840 Speaker 1: been happening since the two thousands. And this is the 1305 01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:10,599 Speaker 1: thing that's very different about this moment than any other 1306 01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:14,000 Speaker 1: moment that has happened in US history is that the vast, 1307 01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:16,840 Speaker 1: vast majority of people are are are pre pro crew wides, 1308 01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:19,360 Speaker 1: are prology bt Q or pro game marriage game marriage 1309 01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:23,479 Speaker 1: polls consistently in about right. And even with the ship 1310 01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:25,760 Speaker 1: that that hasn't moved in needle on it, right, they 1311 01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:28,920 Speaker 1: know that they have to right now, right, they have 1312 01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:31,640 Speaker 1: to fu kill us. All they have left is this 1313 01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:33,360 Speaker 1: solely have left. They they have they have no work 1314 01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:36,639 Speaker 1: action basically like it's like and they see no other 1315 01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:40,600 Speaker 1: viable way to mainstream this. And that's why we have 1316 01:29:41,200 --> 01:29:45,519 Speaker 1: hours after the shooting, lives of TikTok posting about queer 1317 01:29:45,680 --> 01:29:49,840 Speaker 1: events in Colorado, because they're they're trying to get this 1318 01:29:50,000 --> 01:29:51,880 Speaker 1: thing to happen. They're trying to do more trying to 1319 01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:54,599 Speaker 1: press the attack. Yeah. But but but but I think, 1320 01:29:54,600 --> 01:29:56,040 Speaker 1: I think, I think this is this is like the 1321 01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:58,880 Speaker 1: only thing, like this is a sign of their weakness, right, 1322 01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:01,679 Speaker 1: And and they're like, again, the the number, the physical 1323 01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:04,479 Speaker 1: number of people who are pushing this ship is not 1324 01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:07,200 Speaker 1: that large, right and and you know again like this 1325 01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:09,000 Speaker 1: is this is you know, I've I've I've talked a 1326 01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:11,639 Speaker 1: lot about how the silent majority in this country doesn't 1327 01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:15,200 Speaker 1: agree with this ship and like they're literally are not 1328 01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:17,960 Speaker 1: that fucking many of them. We can stop them, like 1329 01:30:18,280 --> 01:30:20,880 Speaker 1: this is an actual thing, Like you know, like there 1330 01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:22,880 Speaker 1: there there there's a limit to which we can even 1331 01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:25,960 Speaker 1: sort of talk about this. But like, okay, we've been 1332 01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:28,760 Speaker 1: doing community self defense like as as sort of like 1333 01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:30,720 Speaker 1: the big principle of the left sense of Trump era. 1334 01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:34,320 Speaker 1: We have reached a point where like, you know, we 1335 01:30:34,439 --> 01:30:37,240 Speaker 1: can defend ourselves, but if well, if we're limited to 1336 01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:39,000 Speaker 1: just defending ourselves, they're going to kill a bunch of 1337 01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:42,280 Speaker 1: us first. And that means that we like we actually 1338 01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:45,200 Speaker 1: have to start taking the fight to these media platforms 1339 01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:47,360 Speaker 1: where we have to start taking the fight specifically trying 1340 01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:49,240 Speaker 1: to get these people sucking off air and then you know, 1341 01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:52,120 Speaker 1: failing that, like fucking showing up and like blowing a 1342 01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:54,920 Speaker 1: fucking air horn in try a right checks like ear 1343 01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,639 Speaker 1: every single time she leaves her house. Right, because all 1344 01:30:57,680 --> 01:30:59,720 Speaker 1: of all of these people sucking, their entire lives depend 1345 01:30:59,800 --> 01:31:02,439 Speaker 1: on our labor. Right, Every single fucking uber they take, 1346 01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:04,680 Speaker 1: every single meal they eat, is all prepared by us. 1347 01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:07,439 Speaker 1: And you know we can fucking find them, and we 1348 01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:09,439 Speaker 1: can we can make their lives fucking hell if this 1349 01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:12,040 Speaker 1: is what they're going to do to us. Garrison, do 1350 01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:14,000 Speaker 1: you want to do? You want to talk about Focus 1351 01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:17,519 Speaker 1: on the Family? It talks and Colorado. Oh yeah, there 1352 01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:19,960 Speaker 1: was speaking of the kind of direct action Chris was 1353 01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:22,880 Speaker 1: talking about showing up where these people are and making 1354 01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:26,000 Speaker 1: it very clear that they don't get to pretend anymore 1355 01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:30,240 Speaker 1: to not be complicit in in murder. Um that that's 1356 01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:34,479 Speaker 1: a story. Yeah. Some some people did did show up 1357 01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:38,760 Speaker 1: at the Colorado Springs Focus on the Family headquarters. Um 1358 01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:43,479 Speaker 1: did a did a graffiti left some left some messages 1359 01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:47,960 Speaker 1: out front and posted a community ca of sorts. I 1360 01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:51,360 Speaker 1: think they called them debotic, which is pretty funny remembering 1361 01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:55,120 Speaker 1: the message written. The thing right, that is a weird place. 1362 01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:00,200 Speaker 1: It talked about how Satan this can the sky is 1363 01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:03,840 Speaker 1: himself as an angel light. That's that's talking about the 1364 01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:07,479 Speaker 1: types of like self righteousness that these Christian fascist groups 1365 01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:11,040 Speaker 1: put on and in but in effect they're all kind 1366 01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:17,479 Speaker 1: of murderous snakes. Um. That was people trying trying to 1367 01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:21,240 Speaker 1: use the Bible against these guys, which is funny in 1368 01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:24,479 Speaker 1: an ironic way. And I don't think they actually care 1369 01:32:24,479 --> 01:32:26,599 Speaker 1: because they don't atually care. I don't think they actually 1370 01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:28,400 Speaker 1: care what the Bible sets. They don't don't give a 1371 01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:30,880 Speaker 1: about what the Bible says, they give a shit about. Yeah, 1372 01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:34,719 Speaker 1: but that's showing. But showing up and and and doing 1373 01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:38,080 Speaker 1: doing a little thing outside outside their headquarters is definitely 1374 01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:42,960 Speaker 1: a good first step. When when me and James went there, um, 1375 01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:45,519 Speaker 1: you know, like in terms of this is just an 1376 01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:50,439 Speaker 1: interesting an interesting comment, like police did not help at 1377 01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:53,559 Speaker 1: the club queue shooting at all, and they came back 1378 01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:56,800 Speaker 1: towards and they held and they you know, as as 1379 01:32:56,840 --> 01:32:59,840 Speaker 1: they usually do, they'll they'll they arrest the person who 1380 01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:02,519 Speaker 1: who who helped who help stop the match shooting. Um. 1381 01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:04,680 Speaker 1: When me and James went to the Focus on the 1382 01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:09,080 Speaker 1: Family headquarters last summer, Um, there was a Colorado police 1383 01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:13,479 Speaker 1: officer inside the building the entire time, um constantly. They're 1384 01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:18,600 Speaker 1: mostly watching me because I was the obvious, obvious outcast 1385 01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:22,080 Speaker 1: inside there. But that police are stationed at Focus in 1386 01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:25,519 Speaker 1: the family all the time to make sure nothing bad 1387 01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,439 Speaker 1: happens there. But they're not going to do ship to 1388 01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:31,920 Speaker 1: help queer people getting murdered. But they're gonna stay. They're 1389 01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:34,720 Speaker 1: gonna have a police car outside of the Focus in 1390 01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:38,240 Speaker 1: the family building and have have an officer inside all 1391 01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,840 Speaker 1: the time because that's what the police actually do. Yeah, 1392 01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:45,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's like it is increasingly obvious if 1393 01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,160 Speaker 1: you have been paying any attention in the last decade. 1394 01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,360 Speaker 1: The only consequences that exists in this world as us, 1395 01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:54,000 Speaker 1: and you know it is in our hands to decide 1396 01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:57,080 Speaker 1: what the consequences for these people fucking attempting to inside 1397 01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:02,040 Speaker 1: a genocide are all that's gonna do it for us here. 1398 01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:07,240 Speaker 1: It could happen here until next time. Uh, I don't 1399 01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:26,640 Speaker 1: know until next time. Hello everybody, and welcome back to 1400 01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:30,000 Speaker 1: It could happen here a podcast about things falling apart 1401 01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:32,920 Speaker 1: and occasionally about how to put them back together again. 1402 01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,479 Speaker 1: And today we have a special episode we're gonna be 1403 01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:38,479 Speaker 1: talking about a place where things did in fact fall 1404 01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:42,040 Speaker 1: apart and people are you could say, still in the 1405 01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,280 Speaker 1: process of putting them back together again and trying to 1406 01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:46,800 Speaker 1: do it in a way that is much more equitable 1407 01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,240 Speaker 1: and better than things have been before the collapse. That 1408 01:34:50,479 --> 01:34:55,120 Speaker 1: is Rojaba in Northeast Syria. UM. I'm going to introduce 1409 01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:58,320 Speaker 1: kind of that concept in I'll do it right now 1410 01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:00,960 Speaker 1: basically if you if you don't anything about this, you 1411 01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:03,519 Speaker 1: might check out our podcast The Women's War UM. But 1412 01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,360 Speaker 1: it is a it is an autonomous region, not a 1413 01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:09,000 Speaker 1: state in northeast Syria that is not under the control 1414 01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:12,720 Speaker 1: of the Assad regime UM or of any other state 1415 01:35:12,840 --> 01:35:16,840 Speaker 1: in the area. It's an independent UM community that is 1416 01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:20,280 Speaker 1: based on some pretty radical it's you know, it's organization 1417 01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:24,560 Speaker 1: is based on some pretty radical political philosophies UM, in 1418 01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:27,680 Speaker 1: large part ones that were sort of initially explored by 1419 01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:30,360 Speaker 1: a man named Murray Buchin, who is an American social 1420 01:35:30,439 --> 01:35:35,280 Speaker 1: theorist and anarchists anarchist political philosopher UM and some of 1421 01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:38,280 Speaker 1: his ideas were adopted by the leader of a militant 1422 01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,400 Speaker 1: group in the region called the p k k UM. 1423 01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:42,439 Speaker 1: And the leader of that group was a guy in 1424 01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,720 Speaker 1: a Turkish prison named of Doula, a Gelan who was 1425 01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:48,320 Speaker 1: you might say, a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon encountered 1426 01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:51,960 Speaker 1: bookstions ideas and started writing his own books of political 1427 01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:54,040 Speaker 1: theory that we're kind of based off of them. And 1428 01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:57,639 Speaker 1: then when uh two thousand thirteen, you get the Syrian 1429 01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:01,599 Speaker 1: Civil War reaches its kind of high, Isis becomes the thing. 1430 01:36:01,840 --> 01:36:04,080 Speaker 1: Suddenly the government's not in this area that has a 1431 01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:08,800 Speaker 1: large Kurtish population, Northeast Syria, and you know, people who 1432 01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:13,519 Speaker 1: are followers of Augelon takeover and start as they're fighting. 1433 01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:16,840 Speaker 1: Isis instituting this kind of radical feminist, egalitarian vision of 1434 01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:20,320 Speaker 1: society which is currently under attacked by the Turkish government, 1435 01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:21,720 Speaker 1: which is what we're gonna be talking about. So I 1436 01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:23,640 Speaker 1: want to introduce our guests for today. First off, we 1437 01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:27,439 Speaker 1: have James Stout and we have Chris on the call 1438 01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:30,080 Speaker 1: from our normal Cool Zone team. And then our guests 1439 01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:33,200 Speaker 1: today are Debbie book Chin. Debbie is a journalist and 1440 01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:36,600 Speaker 1: author and co editor of The Next Revolution, Popular Assemblies 1441 01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:40,599 Speaker 1: and the Promise of the Direct Democracy UM. And then 1442 01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:45,920 Speaker 1: we also have Megan Bodette from the Kurdish Peace Institute, 1443 01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:49,240 Speaker 1: where she is the director of Research. UM, welcome to 1444 01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:52,680 Speaker 1: the show, Megan and Debbie. Thank you, it's great to 1445 01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:56,479 Speaker 1: be here. Thank you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah, 1446 01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:58,560 Speaker 1: thank you both for your time. I think maybe to 1447 01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:02,080 Speaker 1: start us out, Megan, UM, would you be willing to 1448 01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:06,320 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about why the Turkish government is 1449 01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:10,000 Speaker 1: so aggressive towards this independent region in Northeast Aria and 1450 01:37:10,120 --> 01:37:14,320 Speaker 1: kind of what the situation on the ground is now. Yeah, 1451 01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:19,560 Speaker 1: absolutely so. For some background, essentially, since the division of 1452 01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:24,000 Speaker 1: the Middle East into the modern nation states that exist 1453 01:37:24,080 --> 01:37:29,080 Speaker 1: there today after World War One, with the agreements by 1454 01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:34,280 Speaker 1: European powers, the Kurdish people have been divided between four 1455 01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:38,640 Speaker 1: different states Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and all of 1456 01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:42,280 Speaker 1: those states have had governments that have been ethno nationalists, 1457 01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:45,040 Speaker 1: that have been repressive, that have not provided Kurds and 1458 01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:49,200 Speaker 1: other ethnic and religious minorities equal citizenship rights UM, to 1459 01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:52,800 Speaker 1: participate in politics and to practice their culture, to speak 1460 01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:56,120 Speaker 1: their language um, in addition to denying many of these 1461 01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:59,960 Speaker 1: rights to many of their other citizens of different ethnicity 1462 01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:03,320 Speaker 1: and religions as well. And so as a result of 1463 01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:06,519 Speaker 1: this repression and the repression in Turkey was some of 1464 01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:10,400 Speaker 1: the strongest and most systemic UM. The Kurdish people in 1465 01:38:10,479 --> 01:38:14,880 Speaker 1: these regions have continued to struggle for and demand self 1466 01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:19,400 Speaker 1: determination and freedom in different political forms. What happened in 1467 01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:22,400 Speaker 1: Turkey in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, there 1468 01:38:22,479 --> 01:38:27,559 Speaker 1: were Kurdish revolts against the new um Turkish Republic, which 1469 01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:33,560 Speaker 1: was a very autocratic nation state that denied the existence 1470 01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:37,639 Speaker 1: of all non Turkish ethnicities. And these revolts were all 1471 01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:41,679 Speaker 1: violently put down with attacks that not only targeted those 1472 01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:45,920 Speaker 1: who tried to resist these policies of assimilation, but that 1473 01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,920 Speaker 1: also resulted in um Turkish you know, mass violence against 1474 01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:54,360 Speaker 1: Kurdish civilians in these regions. You had forced deportations, you 1475 01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,559 Speaker 1: had ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds of brutal violence 1476 01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:03,160 Speaker 1: against civilians in order to specifically create this homogeneous Turkish 1477 01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:07,920 Speaker 1: ethnic identity in Kurdish regions. And so after this period 1478 01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:12,519 Speaker 1: of time there were um there was a period wherein 1479 01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:16,000 Speaker 1: there was less resistance, and I think, you know, the 1480 01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:20,639 Speaker 1: Turkish government believed that the Kurdish problem had been solved 1481 01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:23,519 Speaker 1: by force, they had successfully been able to kill or 1482 01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:28,320 Speaker 1: assimilate all of the Kurdish people. But in the nineteen 1483 01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:31,400 Speaker 1: seventies and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with many 1484 01:39:31,600 --> 01:39:34,960 Speaker 1: national liberation movements around the world, you had the beginning 1485 01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:39,240 Speaker 1: of the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers Parties national liberation struggle. 1486 01:39:39,680 --> 01:39:42,759 Speaker 1: Now they began as a socialist movement seeking an independent 1487 01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:46,760 Speaker 1: and socialist Kurdish state, and they saw Kurdistan as a 1488 01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:51,560 Speaker 1: colony that was occupied by Turkey, and with the colonialism 1489 01:39:52,080 --> 01:39:56,680 Speaker 1: of Turkey in Kurdistan was supported by imperialist powers in 1490 01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:59,799 Speaker 1: the rest of the world as well, and they sought 1491 01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:04,639 Speaker 1: to write that as other national liberation movements in Africa, Asia, 1492 01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:07,519 Speaker 1: Latin America many places at the time did with an 1493 01:40:07,640 --> 01:40:12,840 Speaker 1: armed struggle for independence. And in responding to the PKK's 1494 01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:16,840 Speaker 1: formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state once again, rather 1495 01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:22,759 Speaker 1: than acceding to any Kurdish demands, they responded with brutal, 1496 01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:26,920 Speaker 1: violent oppression of not only Kurds who were active in 1497 01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:30,360 Speaker 1: the armed struggle, not only politically active Kurds, but on 1498 01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:34,680 Speaker 1: all forms of Kurdish identity. After the military coup in 1499 01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:38,320 Speaker 1: Turkey and nineteen eighty the Kurdish language was banned. Um 1500 01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:43,519 Speaker 1: Kurds were imprisoned on false charges or no charges at all. UM, 1501 01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:48,040 Speaker 1: torture was prevalent, show trials were prevalent. UM any kind 1502 01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:52,679 Speaker 1: of publication or other public interaction in Kurdish was completely illegal. 1503 01:40:53,479 --> 01:40:55,960 Speaker 1: So there was this full scale effort to repress the 1504 01:40:56,040 --> 01:40:59,080 Speaker 1: Kurds and any other progressive segments of society in Turkey 1505 01:40:59,160 --> 01:41:02,320 Speaker 1: that would have supported them, and as the conflict went on, 1506 01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:07,280 Speaker 1: Turkey did very little to change. By the nineteen nineties, 1507 01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:11,400 Speaker 1: the success of the Kurdish movement had forced the state 1508 01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:15,120 Speaker 1: to recalibrate, as had developments in Iraqi, Kurdistan with Kords, 1509 01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:18,840 Speaker 1: they're achieving autonomy and so you started to have the 1510 01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:23,080 Speaker 1: ability of Kurdish political actors to work within the system. 1511 01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:26,439 Speaker 1: We saw the development of pro Kurdish legal political parties 1512 01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:32,040 Speaker 1: at that time, but there was still very severe repression 1513 01:41:32,320 --> 01:41:36,120 Speaker 1: of any and all things Kurdish as they made their demands, 1514 01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:39,520 Speaker 1: even of those who increasingly attempted to make demands peacefully. 1515 01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:43,640 Speaker 1: So the conflict went on throughout the nineteen nineties and 1516 01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:47,439 Speaker 1: the two thousands and to this day UM despite a 1517 01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:51,639 Speaker 1: peace process between the Government of Turkey and the PKK 1518 01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:57,200 Speaker 1: and the Kurdish Movement between twelve and twenty fifteen UM, 1519 01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:03,320 Speaker 1: that process failed when Ridwan's government saw that it was 1520 01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:07,639 Speaker 1: allowing for Kurds to take advantage of expanded democratic space 1521 01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:12,960 Speaker 1: in Turkey organized and achieve electoral political success. The government 1522 01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:17,519 Speaker 1: abandoned its commitments and sadly returned to war, and the 1523 01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:21,519 Speaker 1: conflict has been going on ever since and has included, 1524 01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:24,479 Speaker 1: you know, again, not only this military component, but this 1525 01:42:24,600 --> 01:42:28,720 Speaker 1: component of crushing all forms of organized Kurdish political and 1526 01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:32,760 Speaker 1: cultural expression. So what we've been seeing in Turkey over 1527 01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,560 Speaker 1: the past um, nearly a decade, now more than a 1528 01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:39,599 Speaker 1: half decade, is the repression of the pro Kurdish political 1529 01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:43,080 Speaker 1: opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic Party or the HDP. UM, 1530 01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:48,120 Speaker 1: we've seen repression of Kurdish media, attacks on Kurdish journalists, UM, 1531 01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:53,439 Speaker 1: we've seen any kind of Kurdish activism, not only um 1532 01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:56,640 Speaker 1: that that's explicitly political, but any kind of acknowledgment of 1533 01:42:56,680 --> 01:43:00,840 Speaker 1: the Kurdish language, of Kurdish colors, of Kurtish clothing very 1534 01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:05,760 Speaker 1: readily criminalized. And this campaign of attacking and repressing all 1535 01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:09,519 Speaker 1: things Kurdish has of course expanded beyond Turkey's borders. So 1536 01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:14,040 Speaker 1: Turkey opposes North aneas Syria because the Syrian Kurds have 1537 01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:17,120 Speaker 1: created a form of autonomous governance that protects and promotes 1538 01:43:17,200 --> 01:43:20,440 Speaker 1: Kurdish rights because they have done so in the framework 1539 01:43:20,560 --> 01:43:23,080 Speaker 1: of the Kurdish Freedom movement that has its roots in 1540 01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:27,000 Speaker 1: Turkey UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as you explained, and 1541 01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:32,240 Speaker 1: because they've been able to create a successful alternative to 1542 01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:37,479 Speaker 1: the very sort of nationalist project that the modern Turkish 1543 01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:40,280 Speaker 1: state is based on. You know, I would say that 1544 01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:43,200 Speaker 1: the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't like to call 1545 01:43:43,280 --> 01:43:45,240 Speaker 1: it that, but that is what most people call it 1546 01:43:45,360 --> 01:43:49,439 Speaker 1: today is really a conflict now over to competing visions 1547 01:43:49,479 --> 01:43:53,200 Speaker 1: of regional order with Turkeys based on the right ring 1548 01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:58,360 Speaker 1: wing neo liberal nation state and the Kurdish movement's vision 1549 01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:02,480 Speaker 1: of a Middle East based on self determination, liberation, equality 1550 01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:05,720 Speaker 1: for women, and other values not only for birds but 1551 01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:09,880 Speaker 1: for all people. So because Northern East Syria represents UM 1552 01:44:10,680 --> 01:44:15,240 Speaker 1: both Kurdish success and in creating an autonomous region, and 1553 01:44:15,479 --> 01:44:18,400 Speaker 1: it represents these ideas of the Kurdish Freedom movement that 1554 01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:22,600 Speaker 1: challenge Turkey's nationalist project UM. Turkey has been trying to 1555 01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:27,160 Speaker 1: destroy the Autonomous Administration of Northern East Syria by all 1556 01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:30,839 Speaker 1: possible means for a very long time now. They've invaded 1557 01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:35,679 Speaker 1: Syrian territory twice to attack the Autonomous Administration and the SDF, 1558 01:44:36,080 --> 01:44:39,320 Speaker 1: the Syrian Democratic Forces, once in a frena in two 1559 01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:41,960 Speaker 1: thousand and eighteen a frina Is in northwestern Syria, and 1560 01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:45,640 Speaker 1: then once in two thousand nineteen after UM, you know 1561 01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:49,320 Speaker 1: Trump and air Tawan's phone call that we all infamously 1562 01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:54,439 Speaker 1: remember in Sarah Kanyer and tal Abiad in northeastern Syria. 1563 01:44:55,080 --> 01:44:58,240 Speaker 1: So you've had these two invasions and occupations of UM 1564 01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:02,599 Speaker 1: North and East Syria territory that have included not only 1565 01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:07,200 Speaker 1: the terrible violence of invasion and occupation, but also all 1566 01:45:07,320 --> 01:45:10,799 Speaker 1: kinds of crimes against civilians who remained. We've seen uptakes 1567 01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:16,520 Speaker 1: in violence and abuse of women, ethnically motivated, religiously motivated 1568 01:45:16,600 --> 01:45:19,840 Speaker 1: hatred and persecution that's driven virtually all of the non 1569 01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:22,800 Speaker 1: Arab and non Muslim people living in these regions to 1570 01:45:22,880 --> 01:45:27,360 Speaker 1: flee their homes. Attacks on anyone who is perceived as 1571 01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:31,240 Speaker 1: having collaborated with the prior administration all being carried out 1572 01:45:31,320 --> 01:45:35,479 Speaker 1: by Turkey and Turkish back Syrian militia groups. So we've 1573 01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:37,840 Speaker 1: seen the persecution of the civilians in these areas with 1574 01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:42,200 Speaker 1: the intent of changing demographics and installing not only a 1575 01:45:42,280 --> 01:45:46,120 Speaker 1: government sympathetic to Turkey and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey, 1576 01:45:46,160 --> 01:45:50,240 Speaker 1: but also removing the social base for the Autonomous Administration's project. 1577 01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:53,800 Speaker 1: And then, in addition to these all out attacks on 1578 01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:57,719 Speaker 1: the Autonomous Administration in these regions, Turkey continues to threaten 1579 01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:00,760 Speaker 1: the territory that North Aneast Syria does have left, which 1580 01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:04,280 Speaker 1: is still nearly one third of Syrian territory concentrated in 1581 01:46:04,360 --> 01:46:08,120 Speaker 1: the northeast. There's been an escalating campaign of drone strikes 1582 01:46:08,240 --> 01:46:11,559 Speaker 1: targeting leaders in the Autonomous Administration and the STF, as 1583 01:46:11,600 --> 01:46:16,000 Speaker 1: well as Syrian civilians. Turkey is cutting water access to 1584 01:46:16,120 --> 01:46:20,000 Speaker 1: northern East Syria by restricting the flow of the Euphrates River. 1585 01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:23,639 Speaker 1: This is an agricultural region. People depend on that water 1586 01:46:24,240 --> 01:46:27,919 Speaker 1: for all aspects of life um and certainly for the economy. 1587 01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:32,599 Speaker 1: That's caused a great deal of suffering. The entire Turkish 1588 01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:36,479 Speaker 1: Syrian border is very heavily militarized. When you drive by 1589 01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:38,840 Speaker 1: it and you see the wall and you know, very 1590 01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:41,160 Speaker 1: lit up at night with the barbed wire and everything, 1591 01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:44,599 Speaker 1: and you just look at, you know, these civilian towns, 1592 01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:47,800 Speaker 1: very peaceful on both sides. It's something very disturbing to 1593 01:46:47,920 --> 01:46:50,840 Speaker 1: see UM. But it's a highly militarized border and it 1594 01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:55,160 Speaker 1: is completely sealed border. UM. Turkey does not trade with 1595 01:46:55,280 --> 01:46:59,519 Speaker 1: northern East Syria and supports an international economic blockade on 1596 01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:03,839 Speaker 1: the reed En, including by pressuring its allies to restrict 1597 01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:07,479 Speaker 1: the access of goods to North and East Syria. So 1598 01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:11,120 Speaker 1: there's economics they're going on there. There are really every 1599 01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:17,000 Speaker 1: tactic that Turkey is able to use, whether military, economic, environmental, political, 1600 01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:20,960 Speaker 1: or anything else in order to crush and destroy on 1601 01:47:21,160 --> 01:47:25,120 Speaker 1: with any serious political project and force the Kurdish people 1602 01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:27,439 Speaker 1: and the other peoples of that region to flee so 1603 01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:30,240 Speaker 1: that there is no base for such a project again 1604 01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:33,479 Speaker 1: in the future. Uh. They're doing everything they can to 1605 01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:37,760 Speaker 1: achieve that outcome. So the situation is very difficult and 1606 01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,960 Speaker 1: it is a direct result of Turkeys, you know, century 1607 01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:46,720 Speaker 1: old Kurdish question that it has been unable and unwilling 1608 01:47:47,520 --> 01:47:53,080 Speaker 1: to honestly and in good faith a peaceful solution to UM. 1609 01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:56,080 Speaker 1: And we'll get to it later, but the international community 1610 01:47:56,120 --> 01:47:58,080 Speaker 1: has played a very big role in ensuring that that 1611 01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:00,800 Speaker 1: conflict goes on with all of those at its consequences 1612 01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,600 Speaker 1: for Northeast Aria. Yeah, I mean, and that's one of 1613 01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:09,680 Speaker 1: the so obviously Turkey is the second largest military in 1614 01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:14,920 Speaker 1: NATO UM and has you know, one of the things 1615 01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:17,479 Speaker 1: that is such like so messy about this is that 1616 01:48:18,200 --> 01:48:20,799 Speaker 1: on paper and on the ground, in fact, the United 1617 01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:24,800 Speaker 1: States has been supporting the Autonomous Region um IN in 1618 01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:28,120 Speaker 1: northeast Syria and particularly the White PG in the White PJ, 1619 01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:32,960 Speaker 1: which is you know, the militia essentially um AS as 1620 01:48:33,040 --> 01:48:35,360 Speaker 1: partners in the fight against ISIS. And still to this day, 1621 01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:37,559 Speaker 1: right now, there's an operation going on in the Al 1622 01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:39,839 Speaker 1: Whole Camp, which is where a lot of ISIS prisoners 1623 01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:43,960 Speaker 1: are held. UM that is like a coalition supported operation. 1624 01:48:44,040 --> 01:48:46,080 Speaker 1: At the same time that the United States is doing this, 1625 01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:50,280 Speaker 1: we're selling weapons to the people who are have essentially 1626 01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:53,640 Speaker 1: declared the folks that are military has been aiding a 1627 01:48:53,800 --> 01:48:58,240 Speaker 1: terrorist organization UM, which is a peculiar in frustrating situation 1628 01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:02,880 Speaker 1: to say the least. Yeah. And and actually the other 1629 01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:07,800 Speaker 1: thing that's happening, Robert is that you know, Turkey, while 1630 01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:11,960 Speaker 1: it's threatening a full scale invasion, they've been doing all 1631 01:49:12,040 --> 01:49:14,960 Speaker 1: of these things that Megan described sort of on this 1632 01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:20,400 Speaker 1: sort of low intensity warfare scale. A kind of military 1633 01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:25,000 Speaker 1: strategy that uses a whole variety of tactics um that 1634 01:49:25,120 --> 01:49:28,479 Speaker 1: are short of you know, a full scale invasion, which 1635 01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:32,320 Speaker 1: still may come. And so you know, there's these extra 1636 01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:37,759 Speaker 1: judicial killings of uh, some of the leaders of the SDF, 1637 01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:40,760 Speaker 1: which is the Syrian Democratic Forces which is the sort 1638 01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:44,200 Speaker 1: of umbrella group of the two militia Kurdish militias that 1639 01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:47,920 Speaker 1: you described, and which also includes many Arab fighters and 1640 01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:51,519 Speaker 1: others who have who have been central and defeating ISIS 1641 01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,639 Speaker 1: at the cost I might add of about thirteen thousand lives, 1642 01:49:56,080 --> 01:49:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, and um, you know, and the and the 1643 01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:02,200 Speaker 1: use of their pro see groups like the Syrian so 1644 01:50:02,479 --> 01:50:05,800 Speaker 1: called you know s N, a Syrian National Army, which 1645 01:50:05,880 --> 01:50:10,080 Speaker 1: is really you know, a group of jihadi militias that 1646 01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:14,640 Speaker 1: Turkey has kind of assembled and now completely is responsive 1647 01:50:14,720 --> 01:50:17,799 Speaker 1: to Turkey and and is the sort of shock troops 1648 01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:21,640 Speaker 1: for when they went did go into Afron and for 1649 01:50:21,800 --> 01:50:26,479 Speaker 1: these other invasions, um, you know, economic pressures as Megan described. 1650 01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:29,320 Speaker 1: But the point is that this kind of warfare, it 1651 01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:34,519 Speaker 1: produces these sort of ongoing low level attacks, but it 1652 01:50:34,720 --> 01:50:37,200 Speaker 1: keeps it sort of off the radar of the of 1653 01:50:37,360 --> 01:50:42,599 Speaker 1: the bigger political and media machine, and therefore it keeps 1654 01:50:42,720 --> 01:50:46,200 Speaker 1: it from getting the attention that it really deserves in 1655 01:50:46,360 --> 01:50:51,360 Speaker 1: Western societies. It also has the impact of displacing hundreds 1656 01:50:51,400 --> 01:50:54,680 Speaker 1: of thousands of people and and uh, you know, and 1657 01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:58,759 Speaker 1: and many hundreds have also been killed. I'm sure probably 1658 01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:02,639 Speaker 1: you're familiar with some of the recent bombings by drone 1659 01:51:02,720 --> 01:51:06,120 Speaker 1: that have been occurring in Rojeva, which you know, including 1660 01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:12,479 Speaker 1: many civilians, school children. Turkey. Turkey is doesn't care at 1661 01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,679 Speaker 1: all about about who gets hit, and they have been 1662 01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:20,880 Speaker 1: very aggressive, um, without any respect for civilian casualties as well. 1663 01:51:21,560 --> 01:51:24,519 Speaker 1: So you know, So, I mean, I think it's it's 1664 01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:29,400 Speaker 1: important to also just note that this democratic project is 1665 01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:33,400 Speaker 1: in Syria is a deep threat to Turkey because and 1666 01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:37,479 Speaker 1: and that every time Airdoan steps up these military sort 1667 01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:41,760 Speaker 1: of disaggression, um, it leads him to Brice slightly in 1668 01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:44,120 Speaker 1: the polls, which is something that's important to him because 1669 01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:47,479 Speaker 1: he has an election coming up next year. So there's 1670 01:51:47,520 --> 01:51:51,160 Speaker 1: that sort of political dimension to it. But the fact 1671 01:51:51,360 --> 01:51:56,719 Speaker 1: is that that Rojeva is basically a women's revolution. Women 1672 01:51:56,760 --> 01:52:01,200 Speaker 1: are involved in every aspect of running society there, the political, 1673 01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:06,280 Speaker 1: the social, the economic, and Turkey is essentially a femicidal state. 1674 01:52:06,840 --> 01:52:10,040 Speaker 1: You know it not only reviews women within within Turkey 1675 01:52:10,200 --> 01:52:13,000 Speaker 1: is less than human where husbands can basically get away 1676 01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:16,719 Speaker 1: with murdering their wives. But you know it targets girls 1677 01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:19,400 Speaker 1: with drones, as it did on August eighteenth when a 1678 01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:22,840 Speaker 1: Turkish drone bombed to you and supported education center for 1679 01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:26,960 Speaker 1: young girls and in Herseka and Roosjeva. So you know, 1680 01:52:27,920 --> 01:52:31,760 Speaker 1: it's it's very much, as Megan said, a war of 1681 01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:35,560 Speaker 1: ideologies as well. Again, one of the things that's so 1682 01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:39,880 Speaker 1: frustrating with this so historically, the reason why Turkey was 1683 01:52:40,040 --> 01:52:42,240 Speaker 1: it was so important for NATO to get Turkey as 1684 01:52:42,240 --> 01:52:45,040 Speaker 1: a member is because that's essentially NATO's eastern flank. If 1685 01:52:45,040 --> 01:52:48,880 Speaker 1: you're still thinking about that big theoretical conflict between you know, 1686 01:52:49,040 --> 01:52:52,719 Speaker 1: Russia and UH and the Western democracies. That was why, 1687 01:52:53,360 --> 01:52:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, part of why why initially like Turkey was 1688 01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:57,840 Speaker 1: such a valued partner, and then as time has gone on, 1689 01:52:58,520 --> 01:53:01,080 Speaker 1: it's um primary early I'm one of the big things 1690 01:53:01,160 --> 01:53:03,120 Speaker 1: is we have a massive air base in Turkey, in 1691 01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:08,120 Speaker 1: sirlick Um where a number of US nuclear warheads are kept. Um, 1692 01:53:08,520 --> 01:53:12,760 Speaker 1: so there's a tremendous fear cowardice might be a better 1693 01:53:12,760 --> 01:53:15,160 Speaker 1: way to say it, on behalf of politicians in the 1694 01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:19,040 Speaker 1: United States and other Western countries to actually engage with 1695 01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:22,759 Speaker 1: the ethnic cleansings UM and with the human rights abuses 1696 01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:25,639 Speaker 1: that the Turkish government, particularly under Air to one has 1697 01:53:26,040 --> 01:53:28,879 Speaker 1: has continued. And one of the things that's really frustrating 1698 01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:30,479 Speaker 1: about this, you know, if you think about the way 1699 01:53:30,520 --> 01:53:34,400 Speaker 1: in which ISIS was discussed by US media, was discussed 1700 01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:38,240 Speaker 1: by conservatives by Donald Trump during his campaign, you know, 1701 01:53:38,360 --> 01:53:41,960 Speaker 1: it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well, a huge chunk of 1702 01:53:42,040 --> 01:53:45,400 Speaker 1: the support for for ISIS and in fact, even logistics 1703 01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:49,640 Speaker 1: for some of their fighters came allegedly courtesy of the 1704 01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:52,160 Speaker 1: Turkish state. And there's some evidence for this. There's certainly 1705 01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:55,760 Speaker 1: evidence of support for wounded fighters and kind of a 1706 01:53:56,439 --> 01:53:58,840 Speaker 1: a lax policy that allowed a lot of people to 1707 01:53:59,040 --> 01:54:02,880 Speaker 1: come through Turkey and get into Northeast Syria to fight UM. 1708 01:54:03,439 --> 01:54:07,439 Speaker 1: And you know, as you noted earlier thirteen thousand, somewhere 1709 01:54:07,439 --> 01:54:11,240 Speaker 1: around there fighters men and women UM in the YPG 1710 01:54:11,439 --> 01:54:15,760 Speaker 1: and J died fighting ISIS in you know, UM, and 1711 01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:19,320 Speaker 1: we're you know, not just fighting ISIS kind of with 1712 01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:21,479 Speaker 1: the backing of the United States, but prior to getting 1713 01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:24,200 Speaker 1: any support. One of the most important things they did. 1714 01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:27,599 Speaker 1: The while ISIS was on the move in Iraq as 1715 01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:31,040 Speaker 1: well as Syria, they were carrying out an active ethnic cleansing, 1716 01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:34,080 Speaker 1: a genocidal operation in Mount Sinjar against the z ds 1717 01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:38,240 Speaker 1: UM and that was only really stopped because while they 1718 01:54:38,280 --> 01:54:41,280 Speaker 1: were fighting a defensive war in northeast Syria, the YPG 1719 01:54:41,880 --> 01:54:46,160 Speaker 1: sent fighters into Iraq to stop the genocide UM and 1720 01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,320 Speaker 1: they were successful in this. You know you talked to IS. 1721 01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:51,400 Speaker 1: I have a lot of y ZD survivors of the genocide, 1722 01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:53,120 Speaker 1: and I'll say the only reason we got out is 1723 01:54:53,200 --> 01:54:57,440 Speaker 1: because of you know, the YPG, UM and the PKK 1724 01:54:58,280 --> 01:55:00,680 Speaker 1: and the well and that is the it is. It is, 1725 01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:03,080 Speaker 1: so we should we could talk a little bit about 1726 01:55:03,080 --> 01:55:06,000 Speaker 1: the p k K. They are the the y PG 1727 01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:08,200 Speaker 1: and J and the SDF, which is kind of the 1728 01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:11,560 Speaker 1: umbrella organization, are not recognized as terrorist organizations by the 1729 01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:15,120 Speaker 1: United States or by most Western democracies. The p k 1730 01:55:15,360 --> 01:55:20,120 Speaker 1: K is recognized as a terrorist organization Turkeys. Allegations would 1731 01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:22,600 Speaker 1: be that the y PG and J and and other 1732 01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:27,400 Speaker 1: you know militias are just p KK affiliates UM. The 1733 01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:29,520 Speaker 1: reality is that they are in quite a fact, quite 1734 01:55:29,560 --> 01:55:33,640 Speaker 1: closely tied um Uh and you will, you know, but 1735 01:55:33,800 --> 01:55:35,840 Speaker 1: also there it's not the exact like when you're in 1736 01:55:36,000 --> 01:55:39,840 Speaker 1: Rajaba and you encounter people who are p KK, people 1737 01:55:39,880 --> 01:55:42,840 Speaker 1: will speak about them differently than they will talk about 1738 01:55:42,960 --> 01:55:45,040 Speaker 1: other people who are kind of you know, that they're 1739 01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:46,920 Speaker 1: the folks from the mountains is the term that I 1740 01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:50,760 Speaker 1: here use the most. But the thing is, see, here's 1741 01:55:50,840 --> 01:55:54,840 Speaker 1: the problem. The problem is that that whatever the p 1742 01:55:55,040 --> 01:55:59,880 Speaker 1: k K is, history is and has been and where 1743 01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:02,520 Speaker 1: more than we can get into, the p k K 1744 01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:07,760 Speaker 1: made a dramatic shift in its ideology and has done 1745 01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:13,600 Speaker 1: everything possible to try to restart peace negotiations with Turkey. 1746 01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:16,360 Speaker 1: So first of all, you know, there are several as 1747 01:56:16,440 --> 01:56:19,960 Speaker 1: Megan mentioned before, there was a peace initiative that went 1748 01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:23,400 Speaker 1: on for a few years that then everyone decided wasn't 1749 01:56:23,680 --> 01:56:26,680 Speaker 1: um you know, beneficial to him, so he stopped it. 1750 01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:29,800 Speaker 1: But the p KK, and as recently as I think 1751 01:56:29,840 --> 01:56:32,280 Speaker 1: a year or two ago, the leader of the p 1752 01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:35,720 Speaker 1: KK in the Mountains, right Najamil Bayek, wrote an op 1753 01:56:35,880 --> 01:56:39,800 Speaker 1: ed for the Washington Post saying, we want to have talks, 1754 01:56:39,880 --> 01:56:42,839 Speaker 1: we want to have reconciliation with Turkey. We're not asking 1755 01:56:42,960 --> 01:56:45,880 Speaker 1: for a separate Cornish state. All we want is some 1756 01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:49,720 Speaker 1: degree of autonomy. And and uh, you know, and and 1757 01:56:50,040 --> 01:56:54,040 Speaker 1: it's actually to the enduring shame of the Western media, 1758 01:56:54,120 --> 01:56:56,840 Speaker 1: including the New York Times, that they continue to talk 1759 01:56:56,880 --> 01:57:00,160 Speaker 1: about them as a separatist organization. But that's an other 1760 01:57:00,240 --> 01:57:07,040 Speaker 1: story as well. The fact is that these um ideologies 1761 01:57:07,240 --> 01:57:10,480 Speaker 1: that they both subscribe to p k K and the 1762 01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:14,200 Speaker 1: YPG YPG, regardless of whether to what extent they may 1763 01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:20,760 Speaker 1: be related, the political ideology is an ideology about direct democracy. 1764 01:57:20,840 --> 01:57:24,840 Speaker 1: It's about empowering people at the local level. It's about 1765 01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:28,600 Speaker 1: making sure that every adult and also the youth have 1766 01:57:28,800 --> 01:57:33,880 Speaker 1: a say in their communities. And it's as grassroots democratic 1767 01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:37,960 Speaker 1: as anything that you could ever imagine. And so really, 1768 01:57:38,400 --> 01:57:41,360 Speaker 1: you would think that the United States, you know, would 1769 01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:45,000 Speaker 1: understand that there's certainly no threat that the neither the 1770 01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:50,400 Speaker 1: YPG nor the YPGJ has ever shown any aggression towards Turkey, 1771 01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:52,400 Speaker 1: which is what makes this idea of a buff the 1772 01:57:52,480 --> 01:57:54,840 Speaker 1: idea that they need a buffers own kind of a joke, 1773 01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:59,840 Speaker 1: you know. So really it's it's an ideological shift that's 1774 01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:04,160 Speaker 1: so profound and so empowering to local people that it's 1775 01:58:04,200 --> 01:58:06,960 Speaker 1: also something that frankly, those of us who are on 1776 01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:10,120 Speaker 1: the left should be much more supportive of, I think, 1777 01:58:10,200 --> 01:58:14,360 Speaker 1: than than people have been so far. Yeah, I mean 1778 01:58:14,440 --> 01:58:17,400 Speaker 1: the thing that is most remarkable because I spent a lot, 1779 01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:20,240 Speaker 1: I spent more time, certainly in Iraq than in Syria. 1780 01:58:20,360 --> 01:58:23,560 Speaker 1: And we should note here that we're talking about Syria 1781 01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:28,800 Speaker 1: today and we're talking about Rojava. Turkish aggression against particularly UM, 1782 01:58:29,440 --> 01:58:31,680 Speaker 1: against the p k K, but against you know, Kurd's 1783 01:58:31,840 --> 01:58:35,040 Speaker 1: kind of in an ethnic sense, UM extends beyond Syria. 1784 01:58:35,400 --> 01:58:39,200 Speaker 1: Turkey has illegally attacked Iraq and in fact moved troops 1785 01:58:39,280 --> 01:58:43,080 Speaker 1: into Iraqi soil a number of times, escalating within the 1786 01:58:43,200 --> 01:58:45,600 Speaker 1: last year, and killed a substantial number of people in 1787 01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:49,880 Speaker 1: the in the Kurdish regional government territories. UM. So that 1788 01:58:50,080 --> 01:58:53,680 Speaker 1: is also occurring here. Although it's it's worth noting again 1789 01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:56,120 Speaker 1: because people mix this up a lot, what's happening in 1790 01:58:56,200 --> 01:58:59,280 Speaker 1: Kurdish control Iraq is profoundly different from what's happening in 1791 01:58:59,400 --> 01:59:03,800 Speaker 1: Rojava and the extremely different political organization. Yeah, I think 1792 01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:06,880 Speaker 1: it's also worth mentioning that it's not just UM. Curtish 1793 01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:10,520 Speaker 1: groups have been attacking in a rock There's been a 1794 01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:15,360 Speaker 1: bunch of attacks like after these Yeah, it's killed a 1795 01:59:15,400 --> 01:59:18,040 Speaker 1: bunch of those people too. It is the yeah, they're 1796 01:59:18,080 --> 01:59:22,600 Speaker 1: they're doing the genocide again. Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's UM, 1797 01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:28,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting, you know, I uh, it's also kind of worth. 1798 01:59:28,920 --> 01:59:31,360 Speaker 1: The thing that was perhaps most surprising to me there 1799 01:59:31,400 --> 01:59:34,200 Speaker 1: was the degree to which people I would meet who 1800 01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:36,720 Speaker 1: were just like in many cases just like kind of 1801 01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, terrorism police assays guys, or people who are 1802 01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:43,000 Speaker 1: like working traffic checkpoints, are working in the farms. There 1803 01:59:43,040 --> 01:59:45,800 Speaker 1: were people were really careful to not refer or talk 1804 01:59:45,920 --> 01:59:48,920 Speaker 1: to like what the project was as a state. And 1805 01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:50,920 Speaker 1: it's it's not on a state a state, it's an 1806 01:59:50,960 --> 01:59:52,960 Speaker 1: autonomous region. That's one of the terms I heard the 1807 01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:56,440 Speaker 1: most is the autonomous regions, which is is really interesting 1808 01:59:56,520 --> 01:59:58,400 Speaker 1: to me. And it's it's hard. It's something certainly like 1809 01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:02,560 Speaker 1: mainstream media writing about it. UM seems to have trouble grasping, 1810 02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,920 Speaker 1: as you say, And it's it's interesting because obviously, Debbie 1811 02:00:05,920 --> 02:00:07,600 Speaker 1: and case folks haven't put it together. You are the 1812 02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:11,200 Speaker 1: daughter of Marie book Chin, who is the UM, who 1813 02:00:11,280 --> 02:00:15,680 Speaker 1: is the political philosopher whose ideas formed a significant like 1814 02:00:15,880 --> 02:00:19,080 Speaker 1: core of of sort of what the organizational structure in 1815 02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:23,160 Speaker 1: Roja is UM. Well, I just want to say, first 1816 02:00:23,200 --> 02:00:25,400 Speaker 1: of all, thank you for that. I also just want 1817 02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:28,320 Speaker 1: to say that I really want to remind everybody that, 1818 02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:32,960 Speaker 1: of course, you know, Abdullah Chellan read hundreds and hundreds 1819 02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:36,000 Speaker 1: of books, not just my dad's, so I mean, I 1820 02:00:36,040 --> 02:00:38,800 Speaker 1: appreciate that, but you know they have he has really 1821 02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:44,160 Speaker 1: especially placed emphasis on the need for any revolutionary project 1822 02:00:44,280 --> 02:00:47,160 Speaker 1: to have the liberation of women at its core. My 1823 02:00:47,280 --> 02:00:51,280 Speaker 1: dad talked a lot about hierarchy and patriarchy, but Allan, 1824 02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:56,800 Speaker 1: by making women central, has really done something unique, I think, 1825 02:00:56,960 --> 02:00:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, in in the history of because in the 1826 02:01:00,040 --> 02:01:04,400 Speaker 1: history of sort of revolutionary movements, because as many women 1827 02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:07,760 Speaker 1: who have participated in those movements in the past can 1828 02:01:07,840 --> 02:01:10,360 Speaker 1: tell you, it was always sure, fight with us and 1829 02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:13,360 Speaker 1: we'll deal with the women's issue when the revolution is over. 1830 02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:16,440 Speaker 1: And a Gelant turned that upside down, you know, and 1831 02:01:16,520 --> 02:01:20,200 Speaker 1: he said it's got to be a women's revolution at all. 1832 02:01:20,440 --> 02:01:23,440 Speaker 1: And the women in those movements over there really fought 1833 02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:26,280 Speaker 1: for that themselves to UM. And one of the things 1834 02:01:26,360 --> 02:01:28,360 Speaker 1: that you know, it was most interesting for me to see, 1835 02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:31,880 Speaker 1: UM was when I would go into meetings there with 1836 02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:34,600 Speaker 1: women in all kinds of different you know, military and 1837 02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:38,320 Speaker 1: civilian institutions and different cities across the region that before 1838 02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,360 Speaker 1: I would even bring it up as a researcher, you know, 1839 02:01:41,480 --> 02:01:43,720 Speaker 1: women would say to me that if it weren't for 1840 02:01:43,920 --> 02:01:47,880 Speaker 1: A Gelan's theories, we wouldn't have the organizations that we had, 1841 02:01:48,080 --> 02:01:51,480 Speaker 1: we wouldn't have the political power that we have. And 1842 02:01:51,560 --> 02:01:55,240 Speaker 1: they have this incredible articulation of how they use these ideas, 1843 02:01:55,440 --> 02:01:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, as inspiration for their own work and also 1844 02:01:58,800 --> 02:02:02,680 Speaker 1: as almost clitical cover to do kinds of things that 1845 02:02:03,640 --> 02:02:06,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't be accepted in other places because they can go 1846 02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:09,360 Speaker 1: to men who they work with, who might be suspicious, 1847 02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:12,680 Speaker 1: but who you know, have this public stated claim to 1848 02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:16,640 Speaker 1: this ideology, and they can say, well, Gelon's books say 1849 02:02:17,160 --> 02:02:20,160 Speaker 1: that society can never be free without women's liberation, that 1850 02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:23,600 Speaker 1: women's can have their own separate institutions. So they've been 1851 02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:28,800 Speaker 1: able to really take these ideas and expand on them 1852 02:02:29,080 --> 02:02:31,520 Speaker 1: and you know, push them and use them with their 1853 02:02:31,560 --> 02:02:34,600 Speaker 1: own practice. UM and the way that the ideas came 1854 02:02:34,600 --> 02:02:38,440 Speaker 1: about themselves. One book that I would recommend anyone interested 1855 02:02:38,560 --> 02:02:43,320 Speaker 1: in the Kurdish movement UM in Revolutionary Women's movements anywhere 1856 02:02:43,320 --> 02:02:45,880 Speaker 1: in the world, and really any topic related to any 1857 02:02:45,960 --> 02:02:50,919 Speaker 1: of this to read is UM, the autobiography of Sekina Johnson's, 1858 02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:54,440 Speaker 1: who was the only woman present for the founding of 1859 02:02:54,520 --> 02:02:59,240 Speaker 1: the PKK and was really instrumental in organizing both the 1860 02:02:59,400 --> 02:03:02,400 Speaker 1: armed and so billion sides of the Kurdish women's movement 1861 02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:06,040 Speaker 1: in Turkey. UM. There are pictures of her everywhere in Syria. 1862 02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:10,280 Speaker 1: She was assassinated in France in two thousand thirteen by 1863 02:03:10,480 --> 02:03:15,080 Speaker 1: Turkish nationalists affiliated with the state, likely suspected, you know, 1864 02:03:15,240 --> 02:03:18,240 Speaker 1: hoping to disrupt the peace negotiations that were ongoing at 1865 02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:21,920 Speaker 1: that time. But she's remembered everywhere in northeast Syria for 1866 02:03:22,120 --> 02:03:24,400 Speaker 1: her role, and you can see in her book her 1867 02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:28,080 Speaker 1: talking about seeing the inequalities that, as Debbie mentioned, women 1868 02:03:28,240 --> 02:03:32,640 Speaker 1: in socialist movements and revolutionary movements often faced where they 1869 02:03:32,680 --> 02:03:35,880 Speaker 1: were asked to, you know, be as committed to this 1870 02:03:35,960 --> 02:03:39,160 Speaker 1: struggle as their male comrades were, but we're still treated 1871 02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:42,400 Speaker 1: in very patriarchal ways by men that they worked with 1872 02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:47,200 Speaker 1: because of, you know, the patriarchy inbedded into these societies. 1873 02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:51,879 Speaker 1: And you see her talking about organizing women to overcome 1874 02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:54,720 Speaker 1: this um and when you look at the history of 1875 02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:57,640 Speaker 1: the Kurdish movement moving into what you see in Northeast 1876 02:03:57,680 --> 02:04:00,920 Speaker 1: Syria as well. You know, women were really able to 1877 02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:04,360 Speaker 1: do so much in practice that the theory had to 1878 02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:06,880 Speaker 1: move to catch up to them, and then to take 1879 02:04:06,960 --> 02:04:10,160 Speaker 1: this new incredible theory of you know, women's oppression being 1880 02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:13,000 Speaker 1: the basis of all oppression, UM and the form of 1881 02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:16,320 Speaker 1: oppression that you know, must be addressed to free all 1882 02:04:16,440 --> 02:04:18,960 Speaker 1: members of society in all ways. You know, they took 1883 02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:23,200 Speaker 1: this and they continued to expand it so in a 1884 02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:25,560 Speaker 1: very difficult place in context to do so. I mean 1885 02:04:25,640 --> 02:04:29,640 Speaker 1: we know that in more UM, there's more violence against women, 1886 02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:33,280 Speaker 1: there's more discrimination, there's more emphasis on traditional gender roles. 1887 02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:36,720 Speaker 1: That this holds true across different societies and different conflicts. 1888 02:04:37,400 --> 02:04:40,880 Speaker 1: So they have, UM that they face many challenges. They're 1889 02:04:40,960 --> 02:04:43,240 Speaker 1: up against a lot here, certainly, you know, with all 1890 02:04:43,320 --> 02:04:47,320 Speaker 1: the problems UM that they're facing in Northeast Syria because 1891 02:04:47,400 --> 02:04:50,600 Speaker 1: of conflict and poverty, UM, everything that Turkey is doing 1892 02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:53,760 Speaker 1: that we've discussed. So they're up against a lot and 1893 02:04:54,160 --> 02:04:57,240 Speaker 1: it's not easy. But they've really you know, they've come 1894 02:04:57,280 --> 02:05:02,200 Speaker 1: incredibly far UM and seeing how you know, they've taken 1895 02:05:03,360 --> 02:05:06,840 Speaker 1: very high level theoretical ideas and then done so much 1896 02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:10,120 Speaker 1: in practice, and how their practice and theory from each other. 1897 02:05:10,400 --> 02:05:12,280 Speaker 1: Um is really one of the most incredible things to 1898 02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:15,839 Speaker 1: see over there. Um. And it's another reason why Turkey 1899 02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:18,880 Speaker 1: wants to destroy them, because arid Land does not believe 1900 02:05:18,960 --> 02:05:21,120 Speaker 1: that women can be equal to men. Um. He does 1901 02:05:21,160 --> 02:05:25,360 Speaker 1: not see male violence against women as a problem. And yeah, 1902 02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, as we've discussed, Turkey and the Kurdish movement 1903 02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:31,720 Speaker 1: couldn't be any more different on this question. No, And 1904 02:05:31,800 --> 02:05:35,120 Speaker 1: it's UM, I think the thing because you know, going 1905 02:05:35,200 --> 02:05:37,960 Speaker 1: over there, I went with THEE as a journalist, where 1906 02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:40,400 Speaker 1: like I had heard all these things and and Rojava 1907 02:05:40,480 --> 02:05:42,840 Speaker 1: has kind of become among some chunks of the left, 1908 02:05:42,920 --> 02:05:45,720 Speaker 1: chunks of the left to cause celeb in part because 1909 02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:49,720 Speaker 1: of you know, the achievements of the revolution in that space, 1910 02:05:49,800 --> 02:05:52,720 Speaker 1: and I wanted to see how legitimate is it? And Um, 1911 02:05:53,000 --> 02:05:54,720 Speaker 1: part of why you know I kind of went in 1912 02:05:54,800 --> 02:05:56,800 Speaker 1: with that attitude is that I had spent so much 1913 02:05:56,880 --> 02:05:59,120 Speaker 1: time in the Kurdish regions of Iraq and if if 1914 02:05:59,160 --> 02:06:02,440 Speaker 1: you remember when the fighting against ISIS was at its height, 1915 02:06:02,520 --> 02:06:05,160 Speaker 1: there was a tremendous amount of coverage of the female 1916 02:06:05,240 --> 02:06:07,800 Speaker 1: Peshmerga and the fact that you know, the Kurds in 1917 02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:10,480 Speaker 1: northern Iraq, who were the first force in Iraq that 1918 02:06:11,040 --> 02:06:14,600 Speaker 1: collapsed the least when ISIS was on the advance. Um, 1919 02:06:14,720 --> 02:06:17,839 Speaker 1: it's overstated how well they did. That's why the YPG 1920 02:06:18,040 --> 02:06:20,160 Speaker 1: needed to rescue the z e s At sinjar Is. 1921 02:06:20,240 --> 02:06:23,920 Speaker 1: The Kurdish military in northern Iraq just kind of bounced 1922 02:06:23,960 --> 02:06:26,520 Speaker 1: at that point. But um, you know I had heard 1923 02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:30,040 Speaker 1: about you know these that that this woman's right situation 1924 02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:33,280 Speaker 1: is great in northern Iraq. It's very egalitarian. There's women fighters, 1925 02:06:33,640 --> 02:06:36,320 Speaker 1: and it is it's certainly and anyone who lives there 1926 02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:39,600 Speaker 1: will tell you much safer and easier to be a woman. 1927 02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:43,720 Speaker 1: In the KRG, the Kurdish region like control Kurdish Regional 1928 02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,560 Speaker 1: Government parts of Iraq than it is further south in 1929 02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:50,040 Speaker 1: the country. But that doesn't mean it's it's good. It 1930 02:06:50,240 --> 02:06:53,280 Speaker 1: is it is more like certain things. There's somewhat more tolerated, 1931 02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:57,160 Speaker 1: there's more freedom, but it's still a very traditionalist society. 1932 02:06:57,680 --> 02:07:01,360 Speaker 1: And for example, I didn't see any al Peshmerga. Um, 1933 02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:03,920 Speaker 1: they did not make much of a presence on the ground, 1934 02:07:03,960 --> 02:07:07,600 Speaker 1: and and there their their involvement in the fighting was 1935 02:07:07,680 --> 02:07:11,600 Speaker 1: exaggerated somewhat as part of a conscious pr strategy. Um, 1936 02:07:11,920 --> 02:07:16,280 Speaker 1: as soon as you cross in to northeast Syria, you 1937 02:07:16,360 --> 02:07:19,520 Speaker 1: see women manning and running checkpoints stations you see as 1938 02:07:19,560 --> 02:07:22,040 Speaker 1: you go in because they're like you know, they like 1939 02:07:22,160 --> 02:07:24,440 Speaker 1: you get like passport and stuff like looked at and 1940 02:07:24,520 --> 02:07:26,560 Speaker 1: you get like stamps and whatnot. When you kind of 1941 02:07:26,600 --> 02:07:29,720 Speaker 1: come into the to the region, UM, you see a 1942 02:07:29,800 --> 02:07:32,040 Speaker 1: lot of women like running that part of the operation. 1943 02:07:32,160 --> 02:07:35,680 Speaker 1: You go in to the actual country itself and there's 1944 02:07:35,760 --> 02:07:39,600 Speaker 1: we we visited a restaurant that was run by a 1945 02:07:39,720 --> 02:07:42,120 Speaker 1: collective of women who had all lost husbands in the fighting. 1946 02:07:42,160 --> 02:07:44,120 Speaker 1: We ran. We went to a farm that was all 1947 02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:47,280 Speaker 1: young women who had left their families who were very 1948 02:07:47,360 --> 02:07:50,560 Speaker 1: traditionalist in their religious attitude. Um, and and go on 1949 02:07:50,680 --> 02:07:54,280 Speaker 1: independent and of course you see um female military units 1950 02:07:54,320 --> 02:07:56,720 Speaker 1: and female we saw mixed male and female like military 1951 02:07:56,760 --> 02:07:59,320 Speaker 1: policing units and stuff. And it's it's one of those 1952 02:07:59,400 --> 02:08:02,400 Speaker 1: things that if who are going there kind of with 1953 02:08:02,480 --> 02:08:04,760 Speaker 1: a critical eye to try and see how extensive the 1954 02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:07,760 Speaker 1: revolution can be, I can't imagine not being convinced of 1955 02:08:07,840 --> 02:08:10,760 Speaker 1: the reality of it, because it's it's just so stark 1956 02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:15,400 Speaker 1: well also Robert. You know, first of all, just to again, 1957 02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:18,360 Speaker 1: you could say a lot about what's going on in 1958 02:08:19,560 --> 02:08:23,560 Speaker 1: Iraqi Kurdistan, but just to very quickly sum it up. 1959 02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:26,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a capitalist petrol state run by 1960 02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:32,240 Speaker 1: a plan the Barzanies, you know who who a crew 1961 02:08:32,440 --> 02:08:35,560 Speaker 1: basically all the wealth to themselves. And you can't even 1962 02:08:35,680 --> 02:08:38,640 Speaker 1: begin to compare it with with the kind of revolutionary 1963 02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:41,560 Speaker 1: project in Syria. So I mean, I just want to 1964 02:08:41,760 --> 02:08:45,520 Speaker 1: in case so people understand. I mean, I don't want 1965 02:08:45,520 --> 02:08:47,920 Speaker 1: to use I hate to use the word socialist because 1966 02:08:48,000 --> 02:08:50,600 Speaker 1: it's such a it's so fraught, but you could the 1967 02:08:50,720 --> 02:08:53,160 Speaker 1: closest thing, you know, it's a it's built on a 1968 02:08:53,240 --> 02:08:56,760 Speaker 1: socialist economic model, except a better one, well more like 1969 02:08:57,000 --> 02:09:00,280 Speaker 1: what my father and what Abdullah Shelan have an mind, 1970 02:09:00,320 --> 02:09:04,320 Speaker 1: which my father called communalism, and this democratic confederalist model 1971 02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:07,920 Speaker 1: is based on cooperatives, you know, where people really do 1972 02:09:08,760 --> 02:09:11,720 Speaker 1: um have the means control the means of production as 1973 02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:14,600 Speaker 1: much as possible. I mean, it's obviously all you know, 1974 02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:19,040 Speaker 1: still in formation, it's still growing, and it's like the 1975 02:09:19,240 --> 02:09:23,000 Speaker 1: energy sector where things that you know are less like that. 1976 02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:27,680 Speaker 1: But are I hope in that direction. Yeah, I mean, 1977 02:09:27,760 --> 02:09:30,480 Speaker 1: obviously no, this is certainly not some kind of perfect 1978 02:09:30,600 --> 02:09:33,600 Speaker 1: utopian in the middle of a war zone. But but 1979 02:09:33,800 --> 02:09:36,000 Speaker 1: as you pointed out, what you see when you go 1980 02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:39,040 Speaker 1: there is women so active in every aspect. I would 1981 02:09:39,080 --> 02:09:41,960 Speaker 1: add to to what the great examples you gave the 1982 02:09:42,040 --> 02:09:47,840 Speaker 1: women's houses to talk about that right where they are 1983 02:09:47,960 --> 02:09:52,160 Speaker 1: literally resolving so many problems for both men and women, 1984 02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, at the community level, and and so it's 1985 02:09:55,320 --> 02:10:00,080 Speaker 1: it's really quite an extraordinary you know. I guess what 1986 02:10:00,200 --> 02:10:02,720 Speaker 1: I want to say about it is that like if 1987 02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:05,560 Speaker 1: if we all got on board of you know, one 1988 02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:12,000 Speaker 1: of that that Cretan elon Musk spaceships and found a 1989 02:10:12,200 --> 02:10:15,360 Speaker 1: colony you know where they were doing this, we'd be 1990 02:10:15,600 --> 02:10:18,120 Speaker 1: cherishing it. We'd be going, oh my god. You know, 1991 02:10:18,320 --> 02:10:21,160 Speaker 1: look at these people. They're like they have a cooperative 1992 02:10:21,200 --> 02:10:25,480 Speaker 1: economy and they have women's councils at every level. Wow, 1993 02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:29,000 Speaker 1: men can't overrule women on a decision that comes to 1994 02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:32,600 Speaker 1: say women's bodies. Think here the Dobbs decision right on 1995 02:10:32,680 --> 02:10:37,160 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Women only women can can decide those 1996 02:10:37,240 --> 02:10:40,040 Speaker 1: issues that are related to women. And there there are 1997 02:10:40,120 --> 02:10:43,040 Speaker 1: councils at every level and people sending delegates, you know, 1998 02:10:43,240 --> 02:10:47,120 Speaker 1: meeting in their little villages and towns and communities and 1999 02:10:47,200 --> 02:10:50,280 Speaker 1: electing delegates to the next level. It is a true 2000 02:10:50,440 --> 02:10:55,240 Speaker 1: grassroots democracy, and it's ecological, and it's feminist. It's like 2001 02:10:55,400 --> 02:10:58,440 Speaker 1: if Ursula La Gwyn we're writing about it and the disgust, 2002 02:10:58,520 --> 02:11:02,080 Speaker 1: we'd all be going wow. So so really, you know, 2003 02:11:02,360 --> 02:11:06,520 Speaker 1: it's something that I think, especially anybody who considers themselves 2004 02:11:06,600 --> 02:11:10,600 Speaker 1: a feminist, you know, should be supporting. And and certainly, 2005 02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:13,160 Speaker 1: and I hope all of us do, you know, And 2006 02:11:13,520 --> 02:11:16,800 Speaker 1: and certainly anybody you know, I would think who's an anarchist. 2007 02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:20,440 Speaker 1: To me, it's pretty close to an every anarchist's dream, 2008 02:11:20,680 --> 02:11:24,280 Speaker 1: you know. And and so I think I just wanted 2009 02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:27,120 Speaker 1: to make that contrast with Iraq because I think it's 2010 02:11:27,160 --> 02:11:31,720 Speaker 1: really important. Really goes to why the Kurdish project really 2011 02:11:32,280 --> 02:11:37,240 Speaker 1: needs very badly the support of people in the United States, 2012 02:11:37,360 --> 02:11:40,440 Speaker 1: because in so many ways, the United States kind of 2013 02:11:40,520 --> 02:11:43,840 Speaker 1: calls the shots about what can and cannot happen over 2014 02:11:43,960 --> 02:11:47,160 Speaker 1: there if you look at the problems they have, you know, 2015 02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:49,760 Speaker 1: to all of that, because of course, all of these 2016 02:11:49,800 --> 02:11:53,200 Speaker 1: places are not perfect, and have you know, these serious 2017 02:11:53,280 --> 02:11:57,760 Speaker 1: issues alongside these serious achievements. Every issue that they have 2018 02:11:58,240 --> 02:12:01,120 Speaker 1: is an issue that any society would have if that 2019 02:12:01,320 --> 02:12:05,240 Speaker 1: society had been through ten years of war. Um, we're 2020 02:12:05,280 --> 02:12:09,400 Speaker 1: impoverished and blockaded from virtually all economic activity with the 2021 02:12:09,480 --> 02:12:13,240 Speaker 1: outside world, if they had had to not only you know, 2022 02:12:13,400 --> 02:12:16,400 Speaker 1: fight the occupation of a group like ISIS, but then 2023 02:12:16,480 --> 02:12:19,760 Speaker 1: immediately turn around to fight a state army much larger 2024 02:12:19,840 --> 02:12:23,280 Speaker 1: than them, you know, bent on taking and occupying their territory. 2025 02:12:23,400 --> 02:12:26,680 Speaker 1: A society where people fear going outside because they don't 2026 02:12:26,760 --> 02:12:28,960 Speaker 1: know if they'll be in the wrong place at the 2027 02:12:29,000 --> 02:12:32,200 Speaker 1: wrong time when they'll be a drone strike on a 2028 02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:35,200 Speaker 1: local military leader going around doing their job keeping their 2029 02:12:35,200 --> 02:12:38,880 Speaker 1: communities safe from ISIS, or a local political leader going 2030 02:12:38,920 --> 02:12:41,400 Speaker 1: around doing their job trying to you know, build this 2031 02:12:41,560 --> 02:12:45,320 Speaker 1: new system. So I think when we look at the flaws, 2032 02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:50,160 Speaker 1: their flaws that are the result of in large part 2033 02:12:50,880 --> 02:12:55,480 Speaker 1: poverty and conflict and all of the compounding crisis crises 2034 02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:59,000 Speaker 1: that the people of North Anyst Syria have to face 2035 02:12:59,160 --> 02:13:01,440 Speaker 1: because of what they have gone through, you know, as 2036 02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:05,200 Speaker 1: Debbie mentioned, much at the hands of larger powers. So 2037 02:13:05,360 --> 02:13:08,400 Speaker 1: much of what happens in Syria is up to what 2038 02:13:08,600 --> 02:13:11,440 Speaker 1: the United States wants up to what Russia wants, up 2039 02:13:11,480 --> 02:13:16,080 Speaker 1: to what Turkey wants. Um, all of these countries and regions, 2040 02:13:16,160 --> 02:13:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, with different priorities, different outlooks, but it somehow 2041 02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:21,120 Speaker 1: happens that at the end of the day, you know, 2042 02:13:21,200 --> 02:13:23,840 Speaker 1: the one thing they can all agree on is that, UM, 2043 02:13:24,920 --> 02:13:29,400 Speaker 1: it's okay to sell out the autonomous administration, It's okay 2044 02:13:29,440 --> 02:13:31,600 Speaker 1: to have consequences for them. You know, if the Courtish 2045 02:13:31,640 --> 02:13:35,320 Speaker 1: people suffer, the zd people suffer, the people of northern 2046 02:13:35,360 --> 02:13:38,000 Speaker 1: East Syria, all of these different demographics, if they're the 2047 02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:41,080 Speaker 1: people who are victimized, you know, because they don't have 2048 02:13:41,160 --> 02:13:44,120 Speaker 1: a state, because they're fighting for something different, because they're 2049 02:13:44,200 --> 02:13:47,040 Speaker 1: challenging the status quo, it's okay if they're the ones 2050 02:13:47,120 --> 02:13:49,560 Speaker 1: who faced the consequences. We saw this, you know, with 2051 02:13:49,680 --> 02:13:52,480 Speaker 1: what happened with Isis. We saw this with the complete 2052 02:13:52,520 --> 02:13:55,720 Speaker 1: international silence when a fren was invaded, with the you know, 2053 02:13:56,040 --> 02:13:59,800 Speaker 1: piecemeal response that stopped the Turkish invasion in twenty nineteen, 2054 02:14:00,440 --> 02:14:02,200 Speaker 1: but allow them to convert what they were doing to 2055 02:14:02,280 --> 02:14:04,520 Speaker 1: this kind of low intensity war, um, you know, with 2056 02:14:04,600 --> 02:14:08,480 Speaker 1: a terrible ceasefire, you know, with undefined lines, and with 2057 02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:11,920 Speaker 1: these drone strikes being allowed in areas where Russia and 2058 02:14:12,040 --> 02:14:14,480 Speaker 1: the United States, both of which have agreements with Turkey 2059 02:14:14,600 --> 02:14:17,920 Speaker 1: are active, um, you know, and both of whom tolerate this. 2060 02:14:18,320 --> 02:14:24,120 Speaker 1: So essentially every powerful interest in Syria can agree on, 2061 02:14:25,280 --> 02:14:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, ensuring that the autonomous administration comes in last. 2062 02:14:29,080 --> 02:14:31,840 Speaker 1: And as people in the US, you know, anyone who 2063 02:14:31,920 --> 02:14:35,680 Speaker 1: considers themselves on the left, who considers themselves a feminist, 2064 02:14:35,760 --> 02:14:40,000 Speaker 1: who cares about persecuted ethnic and religious minorities, who opposes 2065 02:14:40,160 --> 02:14:43,800 Speaker 1: endless war and militarist foreign policy that props up autocrats 2066 02:14:44,000 --> 02:14:47,280 Speaker 1: and you know, props up far right regimes. Anyone with 2067 02:14:47,360 --> 02:14:50,120 Speaker 1: any of those values should be very concerned about the 2068 02:14:50,160 --> 02:14:52,640 Speaker 1: situation in Northeast Syria right now and should be looking 2069 02:14:52,680 --> 02:14:55,480 Speaker 1: at what we can do to UH, to get our 2070 02:14:55,520 --> 02:14:59,800 Speaker 1: government to stop supporting some of these very harmful policies 2071 02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:02,080 Speaker 1: against the region, you know, even while it claims to 2072 02:15:02,200 --> 02:15:07,800 Speaker 1: be supporting their fight against isis. What can people listening here, 2073 02:15:08,240 --> 02:15:10,640 Speaker 1: presumably most of you are in the United States or 2074 02:15:10,720 --> 02:15:15,120 Speaker 1: Canada or Western Europe. What can people listening here, particularly 2075 02:15:15,160 --> 02:15:19,200 Speaker 1: in the US, do they have an impact to help? Well, 2076 02:15:19,440 --> 02:15:21,680 Speaker 1: we could talk about that, Um, we could have an 2077 02:15:21,840 --> 02:15:24,320 Speaker 1: entire other podcast episode on that because there's a lot 2078 02:15:24,440 --> 02:15:26,640 Speaker 1: to be done. But you know, to summarize in a 2079 02:15:26,720 --> 02:15:31,000 Speaker 1: few words, the way that the United States supports Turkey's 2080 02:15:31,080 --> 02:15:34,360 Speaker 1: war on the Kurdish people, all the peoples of the 2081 02:15:34,440 --> 02:15:39,680 Speaker 1: region and the Kurdish National Liberation movement is through military 2082 02:15:39,720 --> 02:15:44,600 Speaker 1: cooperation and support, through diplomatic cooperation and support, intelligence sharing, 2083 02:15:44,760 --> 02:15:49,920 Speaker 1: and these pro war legal pretexts. So go tell Congress 2084 02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:53,960 Speaker 1: that you don't want them to send weapons to Turkey. 2085 02:15:54,040 --> 02:15:56,480 Speaker 1: There's an EP six team sale right now that um, 2086 02:15:57,000 --> 02:15:59,920 Speaker 1: it was really great to see the majority of Congress, 2087 02:16:00,120 --> 02:16:04,800 Speaker 1: including all of the squad members, people like AOHC. Rashida Talai, 2088 02:16:04,920 --> 02:16:10,360 Speaker 1: Bilhan Omar all opposed that sale. So opposing armed sales 2089 02:16:10,640 --> 02:16:14,120 Speaker 1: very important something that there's momentum there for um and 2090 02:16:14,200 --> 02:16:17,680 Speaker 1: that there's momentum among progressives therefore, which is very heartening. 2091 02:16:18,200 --> 02:16:22,760 Speaker 1: Opposing military aid and security assistance to Turkey. You know, 2092 02:16:22,880 --> 02:16:25,840 Speaker 1: I've done research on this. U S security assistance has 2093 02:16:25,920 --> 02:16:29,560 Speaker 1: trained senior Turkish officials, including the country's current defense minister 2094 02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:36,480 Speaker 1: and several perpetrators of the violent, repressive nineteen eighty military coup. Obviously, 2095 02:16:36,840 --> 02:16:39,680 Speaker 1: we should not be training coup plotters and war criminals 2096 02:16:39,920 --> 02:16:42,040 Speaker 1: that is not something I think most people learning this 2097 02:16:42,200 --> 02:16:45,640 Speaker 1: want their tax dollars to go to. So calling for 2098 02:16:45,879 --> 02:16:49,600 Speaker 1: an end to US security assistance to Turkey very important, 2099 02:16:49,640 --> 02:16:53,880 Speaker 1: in addition to ending those arms sales and challenging the 2100 02:16:54,160 --> 02:16:58,960 Speaker 1: pro war legal pretexts and designations that allow Turkey to 2101 02:16:59,000 --> 02:17:01,240 Speaker 1: get this kind of Western and support. You know, a 2102 02:17:01,320 --> 02:17:03,840 Speaker 1: wonderful thing that we saw a couple of weeks back 2103 02:17:04,040 --> 02:17:07,879 Speaker 1: was the Democratic Socialists of America, the largest socialist organization 2104 02:17:07,959 --> 02:17:13,080 Speaker 1: in the US, saying that they oppose the terror designation 2105 02:17:13,240 --> 02:17:14,840 Speaker 1: of the p k K and believe it it should 2106 02:17:14,879 --> 02:17:19,400 Speaker 1: be delisted. That's something that progressive support very strongly. In Europe. 2107 02:17:19,520 --> 02:17:23,280 Speaker 1: We've seen, you know, calls from places like Ireland and 2108 02:17:23,360 --> 02:17:26,160 Speaker 1: South Africa where people know a lot about you know 2109 02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:30,000 Speaker 1: what terror designations, and you know, the criminalization of struggles, 2110 02:17:30,200 --> 02:17:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, can can have impacts on conflict resolution. You know, 2111 02:17:33,760 --> 02:17:36,920 Speaker 1: people who participated in these kinds of post conflict processes 2112 02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:40,240 Speaker 1: in some of these places saying get rid of the designation. 2113 02:17:40,320 --> 02:17:42,920 Speaker 1: It's harmful for peace. You know, it will be difficult 2114 02:17:43,000 --> 02:17:47,120 Speaker 1: to end this less violently without it. So that's something 2115 02:17:47,200 --> 02:17:50,800 Speaker 1: where you know, it seems the international case for it 2116 02:17:51,080 --> 02:17:54,160 Speaker 1: is something that's rather obvious, and where pressure in the 2117 02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:57,160 Speaker 1: US on the US designation to remove it would be 2118 02:17:57,240 --> 02:18:02,160 Speaker 1: an important step for facilitating dialogue and a negotiated end 2119 02:18:02,360 --> 02:18:07,760 Speaker 1: to this conflict. So understanding how the US supports Turkey's 2120 02:18:07,840 --> 02:18:12,040 Speaker 1: wars on the Kurdish people and opposing all of those 2121 02:18:12,240 --> 02:18:15,960 Speaker 1: different policies and programs as one of the most important 2122 02:18:16,000 --> 02:18:18,000 Speaker 1: things that we can do to say this war is 2123 02:18:18,080 --> 02:18:20,480 Speaker 1: not in our name. We stand with the people of 2124 02:18:20,560 --> 02:18:24,360 Speaker 1: northeast Syria, with the people in Turkey suffering from Turkish authoritarianism, 2125 02:18:24,879 --> 02:18:28,240 Speaker 1: with the people in Iraqi, Kurdistan, uzd S and Shngal 2126 02:18:28,400 --> 02:18:31,600 Speaker 1: being bombed by Turkish drones. When we say that we 2127 02:18:31,640 --> 02:18:33,800 Speaker 1: don't want to support this war, we stand with all 2128 02:18:33,879 --> 02:18:37,119 Speaker 1: of those people. Um And I think that that kind 2129 02:18:37,200 --> 02:18:40,520 Speaker 1: of action against arms, sales, security assistance, and pro war 2130 02:18:40,640 --> 02:18:45,000 Speaker 1: legal pretexts could be a really great base for solidarity 2131 02:18:45,320 --> 02:18:48,240 Speaker 1: opposing endless war in the Middle East and standing up 2132 02:18:48,360 --> 02:18:51,640 Speaker 1: for you know, peacefully ending this conflict. Um. And it 2133 02:18:51,640 --> 02:18:55,280 Speaker 1: would align us with progressives all around the world, and 2134 02:18:55,440 --> 02:18:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, people who really believe in in peace and 2135 02:18:59,480 --> 02:19:02,560 Speaker 1: in ending these kinds of things. And and if I 2136 02:19:02,640 --> 02:19:05,880 Speaker 1: could just add, you know, one one element to that 2137 02:19:06,440 --> 02:19:12,080 Speaker 1: would also be really pressing for a diplomatic solution to 2138 02:19:12,280 --> 02:19:17,440 Speaker 1: the whole so called Kurdish question, because Rojeva will remain 2139 02:19:17,640 --> 02:19:21,360 Speaker 1: in danger as long as air dewan And and his 2140 02:19:21,760 --> 02:19:26,600 Speaker 1: and his party think that they can basically that they 2141 02:19:26,680 --> 02:19:30,080 Speaker 1: have to be fighting Kurds because you know, to them, 2142 02:19:30,320 --> 02:19:32,959 Speaker 1: as Megan said before, Rojeva is an extension of their 2143 02:19:33,040 --> 02:19:36,440 Speaker 1: own Kurds and of the PKK. So what But but 2144 02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:39,200 Speaker 1: what really needs to happen, just as as it happened 2145 02:19:39,240 --> 02:19:43,200 Speaker 1: in South Africa, is there has to be a negotiated settlement. 2146 02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:45,240 Speaker 1: One of the things that would help with this, and 2147 02:19:45,320 --> 02:19:48,280 Speaker 1: there are movements that people can get involved with if 2148 02:19:48,360 --> 02:19:51,039 Speaker 1: they want, would be freeing a Chilan who has been 2149 02:19:51,080 --> 02:19:53,880 Speaker 1: in a sitting in a Turkish jail for the last 2150 02:19:53,920 --> 02:19:56,920 Speaker 1: twenty two years because he is sort of the Nelson 2151 02:19:57,040 --> 02:20:00,160 Speaker 1: Mandela really of of the Kurdish freedom movement and he 2152 02:20:00,240 --> 02:20:03,879 Speaker 1: should be involved in these negotiations and was even while 2153 02:20:03,920 --> 02:20:07,000 Speaker 1: he was in jail. But really, you know, a jail 2154 02:20:07,080 --> 02:20:11,440 Speaker 1: person can't really do that properly. So pressing for a 2155 02:20:11,600 --> 02:20:18,520 Speaker 1: diplomatic solution because basically rat one uses the p K 2156 02:20:18,760 --> 02:20:21,760 Speaker 1: k UM and the listing of the PKK as a 2157 02:20:21,840 --> 02:20:27,680 Speaker 1: terrorist organization to basically kill all Kurds everywhere. And in 2158 02:20:27,879 --> 02:20:30,560 Speaker 1: order to stop that, somehow there has to be a 2159 02:20:30,720 --> 02:20:34,240 Speaker 1: break in this. And so I think that, you know, people, 2160 02:20:34,480 --> 02:20:38,040 Speaker 1: there are certainly plenty of peace organizations and people who 2161 02:20:38,080 --> 02:20:40,240 Speaker 1: want to work on peace, and I think this is 2162 02:20:40,320 --> 02:20:44,280 Speaker 1: a really important demand that they begin that the United 2163 02:20:44,320 --> 02:20:47,520 Speaker 1: States and the United States has nothing to lose by 2164 02:20:47,600 --> 02:20:51,320 Speaker 1: pressuring Turkey to engage in negotiations with the p k K. 2165 02:20:51,760 --> 02:20:54,160 Speaker 1: This is an hour war. The p KK has never 2166 02:20:54,240 --> 02:20:57,160 Speaker 1: done anything to the United States. It would make, as 2167 02:20:57,240 --> 02:21:00,240 Speaker 1: Megan said, for a lasting peace in the entire or 2168 02:21:00,320 --> 02:21:03,320 Speaker 1: Middle East, and would you know, And and so what 2169 02:21:03,480 --> 02:21:07,000 Speaker 1: I would say is, first of all, folks, would be 2170 02:21:07,120 --> 02:21:10,320 Speaker 1: great if people who want more information about any of 2171 02:21:10,400 --> 02:21:14,640 Speaker 1: this could contact the organization that I helped co found, 2172 02:21:15,160 --> 02:21:19,359 Speaker 1: the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, which is at Defend Rojeva 2173 02:21:19,440 --> 02:21:23,879 Speaker 1: dot org. And we have scripts to call congress Person's 2174 02:21:24,040 --> 02:21:27,800 Speaker 1: resources and we even have fun monthly meetings that people 2175 02:21:27,920 --> 02:21:30,800 Speaker 1: can come to. Um you know, and there's of course 2176 02:21:30,840 --> 02:21:35,040 Speaker 1: a lot of information at Megan's website also Kurdish Peace 2177 02:21:35,200 --> 02:21:37,960 Speaker 1: dot org. But you know, one of the things that 2178 02:21:38,160 --> 02:21:41,879 Speaker 1: people could do is go out and talk to their communities, 2179 02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:45,200 Speaker 1: whether it's a religious community or a labor union or 2180 02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:49,560 Speaker 1: a food coop or your kids nursery school or reading group, 2181 02:21:49,680 --> 02:21:53,440 Speaker 1: women's group, and sort of talk and and help. Because 2182 02:21:53,480 --> 02:21:56,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people so surprisingly really don't know 2183 02:21:56,560 --> 02:22:00,520 Speaker 1: much about Roojeva. I think maybe because there because the 2184 02:22:00,640 --> 02:22:05,160 Speaker 1: Zabatistas are a little closer geographically, that that project is 2185 02:22:05,200 --> 02:22:08,520 Speaker 1: a bit better known, you know, So talking to people 2186 02:22:08,640 --> 02:22:11,800 Speaker 1: and getting people engaged, and for example, if there's anybody 2187 02:22:11,879 --> 02:22:15,560 Speaker 1: listening from New Jersey. Bob Menendez is the chairman of 2188 02:22:15,640 --> 02:22:19,879 Speaker 1: the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and he's been pretty hostile 2189 02:22:19,959 --> 02:22:23,560 Speaker 1: towards air to one and and keeping on him with 2190 02:22:23,720 --> 02:22:27,160 Speaker 1: phone calls emails is a great way, you know, for 2191 02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:31,800 Speaker 1: for our m As somebody who worked in Washington for 2192 02:22:31,840 --> 02:22:34,000 Speaker 1: a while when I worked for Bernie Sanders, I know 2193 02:22:34,200 --> 02:22:37,840 Speaker 1: that these guys listen to their constituents, you know, and 2194 02:22:37,959 --> 02:22:40,720 Speaker 1: if they get enough calls, they start to pay attention 2195 02:22:40,840 --> 02:22:43,760 Speaker 1: to those things that they come around. We could even get, 2196 02:22:43,920 --> 02:22:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, somebody to send a letter around to their 2197 02:22:47,040 --> 02:22:50,959 Speaker 1: colleagues in Congress saying, you know, it's time to start 2198 02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:54,880 Speaker 1: peace negotiations. Those kinds of things do have impact because, 2199 02:22:55,160 --> 02:22:58,480 Speaker 1: as I said before, unfortunately the United States is really 2200 02:22:58,879 --> 02:23:01,680 Speaker 1: at the helm and so many ways of what happens 2201 02:23:01,840 --> 02:23:08,520 Speaker 1: internationally in these geopolitical battles. UM. Well, thank you so much, Debbie, 2202 02:23:08,600 --> 02:23:11,480 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Megan. UM. I think that's that's 2203 02:23:11,480 --> 02:23:14,840 Speaker 1: going to do it for us today. UM. Please, you know, 2204 02:23:15,000 --> 02:23:18,320 Speaker 1: continue paying attention to this. UM. Did you want to 2205 02:23:18,680 --> 02:23:20,480 Speaker 1: you know, Megan, did you have anything else you wanted 2206 02:23:20,520 --> 02:23:23,320 Speaker 1: to kind of kind of add um or let people 2207 02:23:23,400 --> 02:23:25,840 Speaker 1: know actually both of you would let people know where 2208 02:23:25,879 --> 02:23:29,440 Speaker 1: they can follow you on the internet. Yeah. Well, I 2209 02:23:29,520 --> 02:23:33,400 Speaker 1: mean I think that that about covers it. Look, the 2210 02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:39,160 Speaker 1: only solution for peace, democracy and self determination in Turkey 2211 02:23:39,400 --> 02:23:43,080 Speaker 1: and in the wider Middle East is a just and democratic, 2212 02:23:43,240 --> 02:23:47,880 Speaker 1: negotiated settlement to the Kurdish question. And I think that 2213 02:23:48,160 --> 02:23:52,080 Speaker 1: just as Debbie said, learn about what's going on, reach 2214 02:23:52,160 --> 02:23:55,160 Speaker 1: out to your communities, talk to your local Kurdish community 2215 02:23:55,240 --> 02:23:58,760 Speaker 1: if there is one, find the opportunities that there are 2216 02:23:58,879 --> 02:24:02,160 Speaker 1: to engage with people in Turkey, in Syria and all 2217 02:24:02,200 --> 02:24:04,960 Speaker 1: of these places, you know, working for peace and standing 2218 02:24:05,040 --> 02:24:08,640 Speaker 1: up for these ideas. And then no efforts too small, 2219 02:24:08,879 --> 02:24:13,279 Speaker 1: because ending this conflict would benefit everyone in Northeast Syria, 2220 02:24:13,480 --> 02:24:16,040 Speaker 1: everyone in Turkey and all of us here, you know, 2221 02:24:16,160 --> 02:24:19,760 Speaker 1: knowing that our government was no longer supporting this terrible, 2222 02:24:19,879 --> 02:24:24,320 Speaker 1: unjust war. UM, So just get out there and do something. UM. 2223 02:24:25,160 --> 02:24:27,680 Speaker 1: To see the work that the think tank where I 2224 02:24:27,800 --> 02:24:31,120 Speaker 1: work UM is doing on this issue, you can go 2225 02:24:31,320 --> 02:24:34,600 Speaker 1: to Kurdish Peace dot org where we have research and 2226 02:24:34,640 --> 02:24:38,680 Speaker 1: analysis on everything related to do related to the Kurdish 2227 02:24:38,720 --> 02:24:43,360 Speaker 1: issue from all different perspectives, and you can check out 2228 02:24:43,360 --> 02:24:46,080 Speaker 1: our work there UM. And you can follow me on 2229 02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:50,720 Speaker 1: Twitter UM Megan Bodette and the Twitter handle is at 2230 02:24:51,480 --> 02:24:57,120 Speaker 1: five underscores m j b excellent. My Twitter is simpler. 2231 02:24:57,200 --> 02:25:01,200 Speaker 1: It's just Debbi book at the the books and and 2232 02:25:01,840 --> 02:25:04,840 Speaker 1: again I just want to say that you know people 2233 02:25:04,920 --> 02:25:09,120 Speaker 1: we do at defend Rojeva dot org and we're also 2234 02:25:09,240 --> 02:25:14,199 Speaker 1: on Twitter at defend Rojeva. We have so many ideas 2235 02:25:14,320 --> 02:25:17,680 Speaker 1: and so much information about how people can get involved. 2236 02:25:17,800 --> 02:25:21,040 Speaker 1: Is making said, if nothing else, no more weapons to 2237 02:25:21,160 --> 02:25:27,599 Speaker 1: Turkey until they begin peace negotiations, give Rojeva political recognition. 2238 02:25:27,720 --> 02:25:31,440 Speaker 1: That would be another thing people can be demanding also 2239 02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:34,120 Speaker 1: that Curds have a place at the bargaining table and 2240 02:25:34,200 --> 02:25:37,320 Speaker 1: any discussions about the future of Syria. So we have 2241 02:25:37,520 --> 02:25:41,360 Speaker 1: all those kinds of ideas, scripts, as I said, model 2242 02:25:41,520 --> 02:25:46,800 Speaker 1: emails and more at defend rojeva dot org. Awesome, UM, 2243 02:25:46,959 --> 02:25:50,160 Speaker 1: thank you all for for being on and um yeah, 2244 02:25:50,200 --> 02:25:51,840 Speaker 1: that's going to do it for us here. It could 2245 02:25:51,879 --> 02:25:55,720 Speaker 1: happen here for the day. Thank you for having us. Thanks. 2246 02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:15,120 Speaker 1: Ye hi everyone, it's James here, Welcome to It could 2247 02:26:15,120 --> 02:26:18,080 Speaker 1: happen here today. It's just me and we're talking again 2248 02:26:18,120 --> 02:26:21,520 Speaker 1: about the UC strike. But the audio is not great. 2249 02:26:21,560 --> 02:26:24,240 Speaker 1: We had some technical issues on my end, not not 2250 02:26:24,360 --> 02:26:26,680 Speaker 1: on Matt's end, but we wanted to put it out 2251 02:26:26,720 --> 02:26:28,320 Speaker 1: in one the list because we felt that was very 2252 02:26:28,360 --> 02:26:31,360 Speaker 1: important episode and things of developing very rapidly at the 2253 02:26:31,480 --> 02:26:34,520 Speaker 1: u S and we thought that a listeners would like it. 2254 02:26:34,600 --> 02:26:36,680 Speaker 1: So apologies for the poor quality of the audio. We 2255 02:26:36,840 --> 02:26:39,320 Speaker 1: hope you can get through it anyway. All right, So 2256 02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:43,080 Speaker 1: I'm talking today with Matthew, a literally the seven seventh 2257 02:26:43,120 --> 02:26:46,800 Speaker 1: to PhD candidate in the history department. Matthew, would you 2258 02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:49,200 Speaker 1: like to explain a little bit of who you are 2259 02:26:49,320 --> 02:26:52,040 Speaker 1: and what you've been doing with reference to the strike 2260 02:26:52,080 --> 02:26:56,560 Speaker 1: in the last three weeks and maybe before as well. Yes, 2261 02:26:57,040 --> 02:27:00,760 Speaker 1: so I studied Spanish history, like you said, a free empire. 2262 02:27:01,400 --> 02:27:03,840 Speaker 1: I've been at u c SC for seven years. UM. 2263 02:27:04,120 --> 02:27:09,200 Speaker 1: I do research in Spain for two years during the 2264 02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:12,480 Speaker 1: COVID pandemic. So there was sort of great in my 2265 02:27:13,280 --> 02:27:18,160 Speaker 1: university of participation between my mind qual of buying exams 2266 02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:21,440 Speaker 1: for the three years I was there, UM, and then 2267 02:27:21,480 --> 02:27:22,840 Speaker 1: I left. When I came back and i'd go on. 2268 02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:25,800 Speaker 1: The campus was was quite different from both from COVID 2269 02:27:25,959 --> 02:27:30,200 Speaker 1: and from the increasing economic hardships UM. So in the 2270 02:27:30,320 --> 02:27:35,160 Speaker 1: last few year, UH, we involved in UM targeting UM 2271 02:27:35,520 --> 02:27:39,440 Speaker 1: trying to buy a new contract UM as I'm sure 2272 02:27:39,440 --> 02:27:43,000 Speaker 1: all your listeners are aware by this point. Uh not 2273 02:27:43,160 --> 02:27:45,680 Speaker 1: for more than a year, in eighteen months in some 2274 02:27:45,879 --> 02:27:50,080 Speaker 1: cases without a successful resolution, and with I know on 2275 02:27:50,240 --> 02:27:54,800 Speaker 1: bare labor practices on behalf of the UC administration. I 2276 02:27:54,879 --> 02:27:57,560 Speaker 1: saw in November fifteen, I believe it was to day 2277 02:27:57,640 --> 02:28:02,120 Speaker 1: we walked out on strength. I had signed up several 2278 02:28:02,240 --> 02:28:05,640 Speaker 1: months earlier to be a strike captain for the history department. 2279 02:28:06,320 --> 02:28:09,039 Speaker 1: I just assisted by a sort of the informable committee 2280 02:28:09,080 --> 02:28:13,520 Speaker 1: of five of the younger equals, sort of due to 2281 02:28:13,600 --> 02:28:16,800 Speaker 1: the pandemic of a lot of my colleagues, in my 2282 02:28:17,040 --> 02:28:21,280 Speaker 1: codeboord UM and we're not able to go do their research, 2283 02:28:21,920 --> 02:28:25,120 Speaker 1: so they're generally out of the country right now doing 2284 02:28:25,160 --> 02:28:28,320 Speaker 1: their field research. So we have a really great department 2285 02:28:28,480 --> 02:28:33,720 Speaker 1: of primarily first through third years that are participating UM 2286 02:28:33,840 --> 02:28:37,320 Speaker 1: and and leading younger. I also had signed up to 2287 02:28:37,440 --> 02:28:41,480 Speaker 1: be a ticket uh a ticket leader UM kind boiled 2288 02:28:41,520 --> 02:28:44,680 Speaker 1: down today. What I have been really occupying myself and 2289 02:28:45,400 --> 02:28:49,320 Speaker 1: saying has been uh being a food captain. So we 2290 02:28:49,400 --> 02:28:52,400 Speaker 1: have been cooking for about a hundred fifty people at 2291 02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:56,080 Speaker 1: our location on campus. UM. We've been getting lots of 2292 02:28:56,360 --> 02:29:01,400 Speaker 1: great donations UM food and nash and even real dusting 2293 02:29:01,440 --> 02:29:07,400 Speaker 1: that to feed hundred picketers. That's really cool. Yeah, I 2294 02:29:07,480 --> 02:29:10,640 Speaker 1: think that's really nice to to bring up actually, because 2295 02:29:11,879 --> 02:29:14,080 Speaker 1: that we were speaking about before the core right, So 2296 02:29:14,240 --> 02:29:17,320 Speaker 1: many people are familiar with and supportive of the concept 2297 02:29:17,400 --> 02:29:20,360 Speaker 1: of unions and unionization and workers right, but I think 2298 02:29:20,720 --> 02:29:24,200 Speaker 1: relatively few people have actually been on strike and seeing 2299 02:29:24,240 --> 02:29:26,640 Speaker 1: what it takes to organize and all the little things 2300 02:29:26,760 --> 02:29:28,920 Speaker 1: you have to take care of. And so did you 2301 02:29:29,040 --> 02:29:31,520 Speaker 1: just step into that food captain role like kind of 2302 02:29:31,560 --> 02:29:34,280 Speaker 1: ad hoc Yeah, more or less night. I showed up 2303 02:29:34,320 --> 02:29:36,560 Speaker 1: on the first day and I realized we had been 2304 02:29:36,840 --> 02:29:42,360 Speaker 1: marching around and shouting ourselves for the grocery storey night, 2305 02:29:42,400 --> 02:29:44,160 Speaker 1: and I bought a bunch of water and that's sort 2306 02:29:44,200 --> 02:29:49,320 Speaker 1: of snowballed into cooking. Now we have about dat or night. Um, 2307 02:29:49,400 --> 02:29:52,840 Speaker 1: we rotate shifts and fild planning. We actually used the 2308 02:29:52,879 --> 02:29:59,400 Speaker 1: History of Parking graduate lounge. But yeah, you know that's 2309 02:29:59,400 --> 02:30:04,959 Speaker 1: st our experience of ticketting is for all the organization 2310 02:30:05,080 --> 02:30:07,880 Speaker 1: and signing up for different tasks that need to be 2311 02:30:07,959 --> 02:30:11,880 Speaker 1: more in hand, hitting around and seeing what what has 2312 02:30:11,959 --> 02:30:18,160 Speaker 1: needed to sustain that a level as has been a journey, Yeah, 2313 02:30:18,200 --> 02:30:19,320 Speaker 1: I bet, but it seems to have been a lot 2314 02:30:19,400 --> 02:30:23,440 Speaker 1: to be a successful one. Like everyone is out energetic. Um, 2315 02:30:23,680 --> 02:30:25,680 Speaker 1: there have been some really impressive actions actually, like I 2316 02:30:25,720 --> 02:30:30,959 Speaker 1: don't know if you're part of the village drive shut down, 2317 02:30:31,000 --> 02:30:32,480 Speaker 1: I know what you want to call that yesterday, But 2318 02:30:33,760 --> 02:30:36,320 Speaker 1: did you take part in that? No? I was, I was, 2319 02:30:36,440 --> 02:30:40,080 Speaker 1: I was okay, yeah yeah, the people who were amazing. 2320 02:30:40,240 --> 02:30:43,480 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. We actually found a faculty spy in the 2321 02:30:43,560 --> 02:30:45,520 Speaker 1: eight before who went in and asked what time that 2322 02:30:45,680 --> 02:30:51,720 Speaker 1: was one game? I'm sort of uh, our window. There's 2323 02:30:51,760 --> 02:30:54,960 Speaker 1: been a lot of direct action and it's been very 2324 02:30:55,000 --> 02:31:00,760 Speaker 1: successful for the moral perspective and the conversation. I'm sure 2325 02:31:00,760 --> 02:31:05,520 Speaker 1: you're a where we uh approached Chancellor Goldslaw yesterday the 2326 02:31:05,600 --> 02:31:09,640 Speaker 1: day before and even though obviously we didn't get a 2327 02:31:09,720 --> 02:31:12,400 Speaker 1: promise from him that he would raise our wages until 2328 02:31:12,600 --> 02:31:16,040 Speaker 1: President Drake to raise our wages. Uh, it was you know, 2329 02:31:16,320 --> 02:31:20,920 Speaker 1: very energizing for people who have you been been not 2330 02:31:21,120 --> 02:31:23,400 Speaker 1: able to show up because things give me great or 2331 02:31:24,160 --> 02:31:28,880 Speaker 1: involved between their people with direct nations is one of 2332 02:31:28,920 --> 02:31:32,400 Speaker 1: our strong suits at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. 2333 02:31:32,480 --> 02:31:34,800 Speaker 1: It is wonderful to see actually, like so many of 2334 02:31:34,920 --> 02:31:38,560 Speaker 1: us spent so much of our lives like studying workers 2335 02:31:38,640 --> 02:31:42,000 Speaker 1: movements and unionization and strikes, and it's cool to see 2336 02:31:42,040 --> 02:31:44,280 Speaker 1: people walking the talk out a little bit also very 2337 02:31:44,360 --> 02:31:47,120 Speaker 1: import What are the really great things about going on 2338 02:31:47,280 --> 02:31:51,560 Speaker 1: strike with a bunch of you have the smartest minds 2339 02:31:51,720 --> 02:31:55,280 Speaker 1: and in practically every feble to get you know, com 2340 02:31:55,640 --> 02:32:02,200 Speaker 1: in patients that are are working on emails and erst philosophy, 2341 02:32:05,080 --> 02:32:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, being phlosophers, are you know, quoting working class 2342 02:32:13,920 --> 02:32:18,720 Speaker 1: movements of the past of shape our strategy. Yeah, it's 2343 02:32:18,720 --> 02:32:21,280 Speaker 1: it's a cool thing to see. And I remember a 2344 02:32:21,480 --> 02:32:24,320 Speaker 1: long time ago in like and when the last time 2345 02:32:24,320 --> 02:32:27,360 Speaker 1: we were on strike, and yeah, it was very cool. 2346 02:32:27,840 --> 02:32:29,880 Speaker 1: One of the professors I was working with with a 2347 02:32:29,959 --> 02:32:32,240 Speaker 1: lit professor, and she came and read some stuff and 2348 02:32:32,360 --> 02:32:35,240 Speaker 1: then you know, I made people listen to me talking 2349 02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:38,080 Speaker 1: about the Ruti for a while and I enjoyed myself, 2350 02:32:38,200 --> 02:32:41,520 Speaker 1: even if maybe they didn't. So yeah, I want to 2351 02:32:41,600 --> 02:32:44,280 Speaker 1: talk a little bit as well about like you're in 2352 02:32:45,040 --> 02:32:47,560 Speaker 1: week three now and you said, like you've been maintaining 2353 02:32:47,600 --> 02:32:51,200 Speaker 1: the energy and you're feeding people, which is great. How 2354 02:32:51,320 --> 02:32:53,720 Speaker 1: has obviously, like strikes come with an element of economic 2355 02:32:53,800 --> 02:32:57,480 Speaker 1: hardship and that that's somewhat offset by union strike funds, 2356 02:32:57,560 --> 02:33:01,320 Speaker 1: but it's given the economic procarity of people who are 2357 02:33:01,320 --> 02:33:04,920 Speaker 1: graduate students anyway, it could be really tough. So how 2358 02:33:05,000 --> 02:33:07,680 Speaker 1: has that been with not quite a December first yet? 2359 02:33:07,800 --> 02:33:10,480 Speaker 1: Which would that be the first miss paycheck? If people 2360 02:33:10,480 --> 02:33:15,040 Speaker 1: are going to not get paid, yes, uh we are. 2361 02:33:15,720 --> 02:33:18,680 Speaker 1: Most of us could vince that the you see, will 2362 02:33:18,760 --> 02:33:22,400 Speaker 1: not have gotten their their house in order by this point. 2363 02:33:22,720 --> 02:33:26,240 Speaker 1: We were working until November fifteen, so at least you 2364 02:33:26,720 --> 02:33:29,600 Speaker 1: kind to have a month to day. But because there's 2365 02:33:29,720 --> 02:33:33,520 Speaker 1: no real way or you see, to determine exactly which 2366 02:33:33,560 --> 02:33:37,120 Speaker 1: workers are withholding labor and exactly which workers runs right, 2367 02:33:37,440 --> 02:33:43,040 Speaker 1: It seems like the majority of workers will be receiving 2368 02:33:43,240 --> 02:33:46,960 Speaker 1: their first that there there no venay check UM tomorrow. 2369 02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:50,560 Speaker 1: We have also been receiving the striker system the SPROM 2370 02:33:50,680 --> 02:33:55,160 Speaker 1: communion w UM. We're all aware that if we do 2371 02:33:55,320 --> 02:33:57,560 Speaker 1: receive our p check from the university, you will have 2372 02:33:57,600 --> 02:34:00,200 Speaker 1: to return that money, so that you will you sure 2373 02:34:00,560 --> 02:34:04,120 Speaker 1: uh strength assistance um and we're cutting large okay with 2374 02:34:04,240 --> 02:34:08,320 Speaker 1: that uh you know thats iound out between that we'll 2375 02:34:08,400 --> 02:34:11,040 Speaker 1: actually do meet for it makes me a they they 2376 02:34:11,120 --> 02:34:15,000 Speaker 1: noble the strength existance sort of holiday okay, So for 2377 02:34:15,280 --> 02:34:18,680 Speaker 1: this month long way or another, UM, we are all 2378 02:34:18,879 --> 02:34:21,600 Speaker 1: very hopeful that will be able to make ends meet. 2379 02:34:22,160 --> 02:34:25,200 Speaker 1: UH next month is is you know if the strike 2380 02:34:25,320 --> 02:34:29,279 Speaker 1: does continue, um sort of which that will have to cross. 2381 02:34:29,840 --> 02:34:31,640 Speaker 1: I was spoken to a lot of words and the 2382 02:34:31,640 --> 02:34:36,920 Speaker 1: intitute parte who are very concerned about about this achex uh, 2383 02:34:37,400 --> 02:34:40,200 Speaker 1: particularly also from the program that I teach for the 2384 02:34:40,360 --> 02:34:44,440 Speaker 1: Making of the Modern World, which recruits heavily from the 2385 02:34:44,480 --> 02:34:47,480 Speaker 1: history of parts has a non student t A s 2386 02:34:47,560 --> 02:34:49,880 Speaker 1: and are not covered by the union and are not 2387 02:34:50,240 --> 02:34:54,080 Speaker 1: uh I whish hortor strike fully their labored solidarity, but 2388 02:34:54,160 --> 02:34:57,800 Speaker 1: they're very concerned that uh, you know, they're primarily working 2389 02:34:57,920 --> 02:35:01,880 Speaker 1: as their full time job. That's tough. Actually, I've taught 2390 02:35:02,000 --> 02:35:04,039 Speaker 1: that program to both as a student and a non student, 2391 02:35:04,120 --> 02:35:06,840 Speaker 1: and it's a good program, but it doesn't pay a 2392 02:35:06,920 --> 02:35:09,200 Speaker 1: ton and you don't save a lot of money living 2393 02:35:09,240 --> 02:35:12,040 Speaker 1: in southern California, so it could be tough. Is there 2394 02:35:12,040 --> 02:35:14,360 Speaker 1: a way to contribute people want to contribute to those 2395 02:35:14,400 --> 02:35:18,240 Speaker 1: people who are sort of withholding labor and solidarity. Yes, 2396 02:35:18,360 --> 02:35:22,160 Speaker 1: so we are. There is a U A W strike 2397 02:35:22,280 --> 02:35:29,040 Speaker 1: hardship funds have yeah, yeah, I'll including the note people. 2398 02:35:30,520 --> 02:35:34,080 Speaker 1: And there's also avent mode that we're in checting donations 2399 02:35:34,160 --> 02:35:40,960 Speaker 1: for which the natural that's on the US embassy momently 2400 02:35:41,160 --> 02:35:45,480 Speaker 1: that just overwhelmed with good willing si you know, depending 2401 02:35:45,520 --> 02:35:47,920 Speaker 1: on how on the strike, those would definitely be something 2402 02:35:48,959 --> 02:35:52,200 Speaker 1: like large protect support anything I think that the public 2403 02:35:52,280 --> 02:35:56,120 Speaker 1: of large and be doing is concerning the pressure on 2404 02:35:56,320 --> 02:36:02,920 Speaker 1: the to uh age. Yeah, and yeah, I hope they 2405 02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:05,560 Speaker 1: continue to do so. And let's talk a little bit 2406 02:36:05,560 --> 02:36:07,480 Speaker 1: about everyone we've talked to so far has been a 2407 02:36:07,520 --> 02:36:10,760 Speaker 1: science or engineering person, and obviously the experience is a 2408 02:36:10,840 --> 02:36:15,080 Speaker 1: little different when you're a historian or upt so humanities person. 2409 02:36:15,160 --> 02:36:17,600 Speaker 1: Because you you don't go to a lab, right you don't, 2410 02:36:17,920 --> 02:36:19,920 Speaker 1: your research is a bit different and your work is 2411 02:36:19,920 --> 02:36:22,120 Speaker 1: a bit different. So can you explain a little bit 2412 02:36:22,160 --> 02:36:24,840 Speaker 1: about the work the work that one does as a 2413 02:36:24,920 --> 02:36:27,000 Speaker 1: history grad student, that the labor that one does for 2414 02:36:27,040 --> 02:36:30,080 Speaker 1: the university, and and that what the differences in what 2415 02:36:30,200 --> 02:36:33,720 Speaker 1: it's like withholding that labor. The differences is that we 2416 02:36:34,000 --> 02:36:37,200 Speaker 1: we are the vast majority of us that are in 2417 02:36:37,200 --> 02:36:41,160 Speaker 1: the industry department are A S S. We are t 2418 02:36:41,400 --> 02:36:44,600 Speaker 1: A and of the majority of us teach for either 2419 02:36:44,640 --> 02:36:48,680 Speaker 1: the writing programs for for the history department. UM. So 2420 02:36:49,320 --> 02:36:52,240 Speaker 1: when we look at what we can contribute to the strike, 2421 02:36:52,720 --> 02:36:56,640 Speaker 1: we are looking at the withholding only a grade, the 2422 02:36:56,760 --> 02:37:00,840 Speaker 1: type of grading that cannot be replaced the course I 2423 02:37:00,959 --> 02:37:03,720 Speaker 1: tacheen or now there's five or six E A S. 2424 02:37:03,800 --> 02:37:07,400 Speaker 1: There's six hundred and fifty students. I'm responsible for sixty 2425 02:37:07,440 --> 02:37:10,360 Speaker 1: of those tents. Each of those students has a weekly 2426 02:37:10,480 --> 02:37:15,880 Speaker 1: discussion uh animalism five six hundred words. They have a 2427 02:37:16,040 --> 02:37:19,720 Speaker 1: content analysis papers which there's now two of them arenessing. 2428 02:37:20,360 --> 02:37:22,960 Speaker 1: Those are things that can that cannot be reverted to 2429 02:37:23,040 --> 02:37:26,400 Speaker 1: hold choice and to writing. It's not a formula. It's 2430 02:37:26,440 --> 02:37:33,880 Speaker 1: not something that be easily UH place. We are aware 2431 02:37:34,000 --> 02:37:37,040 Speaker 1: that there has been some tension in terms of strategic 2432 02:37:37,160 --> 02:37:41,000 Speaker 1: planning between the A S S and and S are 2433 02:37:41,200 --> 02:37:45,640 Speaker 1: using in the STEM fields. UH that on the one hand, 2434 02:37:45,680 --> 02:37:48,760 Speaker 1: in their in their teaching duties, UM, they are very 2435 02:37:48,879 --> 02:37:51,000 Speaker 1: great that their professors will be able to co opt 2436 02:37:51,040 --> 02:37:54,279 Speaker 1: the teaching process. UM, I make the exams will choice 2437 02:37:54,480 --> 02:37:57,360 Speaker 1: or or something else. And I'm not how that would work. 2438 02:37:57,760 --> 02:38:01,360 Speaker 1: I know that that's just not really possible. Yeah. The 2439 02:38:01,840 --> 02:38:05,320 Speaker 1: uh in humanities UM. And the other the issue which 2440 02:38:05,440 --> 02:38:07,200 Speaker 1: can I you don't really speak to, but I'm sure 2441 02:38:07,240 --> 02:38:11,680 Speaker 1: your other contributors have explained this is we don't work 2442 02:38:11,879 --> 02:38:15,360 Speaker 1: in labs. Are researching is a much more long term 2443 02:38:15,760 --> 02:38:20,120 Speaker 1: We primarily that research either in uh the an absent 2444 02:38:20,200 --> 02:38:24,640 Speaker 1: SIA during this warrior with external fellowships or during the summer, 2445 02:38:25,320 --> 02:38:28,680 Speaker 1: whereas SR used and to be working in their labs 2446 02:38:29,000 --> 02:38:31,879 Speaker 1: more or less constantly. I've heard it said that one 2447 02:38:31,959 --> 02:38:34,640 Speaker 1: of the reasons that SR use are RUDD to be 2448 02:38:34,840 --> 02:38:39,480 Speaker 1: less uh committed to a long term strike is because 2449 02:38:39,959 --> 02:38:42,800 Speaker 1: missing two weeks in a lab since that back by 2450 02:38:42,959 --> 02:38:47,560 Speaker 1: six months in their career or for the mass majority 2451 02:38:47,640 --> 02:38:51,160 Speaker 1: of humanities uh A S C. S and I talked 2452 02:38:51,240 --> 02:38:56,480 Speaker 1: to two weeks is is very to be picked up 2453 02:38:56,720 --> 02:38:58,600 Speaker 1: if you're reading a book in hers fair time, and 2454 02:38:58,720 --> 02:39:01,600 Speaker 1: it's not something that we need to be in with 2455 02:39:01,760 --> 02:39:06,880 Speaker 1: buns and burners and to animals. So there seems to 2456 02:39:07,000 --> 02:39:16,840 Speaker 1: be uh material conditions divide us an scus on one 2457 02:39:16,959 --> 02:39:20,040 Speaker 1: an the standing humanities Faunda, Right, yeah, yeah, there were 2458 02:39:20,040 --> 02:39:22,320 Speaker 1: definitely like two week periods I spent on my research 2459 02:39:22,400 --> 02:39:25,040 Speaker 1: and stuff that I never used in any of my 2460 02:39:25,120 --> 02:39:27,600 Speaker 1: final projects. We could trying to get an archive to 2461 02:39:27,680 --> 02:39:31,240 Speaker 1: open in Spain you can often take that long. So 2462 02:39:32,440 --> 02:39:34,400 Speaker 1: I think one thing I'd like to talk about is 2463 02:39:34,600 --> 02:39:38,360 Speaker 1: like the as it stands now, what you're hearing from 2464 02:39:38,360 --> 02:39:42,280 Speaker 1: the bargaining team and how that's being received. Like I know, 2465 02:39:42,400 --> 02:39:44,120 Speaker 1: there are a lot of different demands, a lot of 2466 02:39:44,160 --> 02:39:47,360 Speaker 1: different things that brought people to strike, right, the access 2467 02:39:47,480 --> 02:39:51,440 Speaker 1: needs to COLA, the NFL labor practices, etcetera, etcetera. Who 2468 02:39:51,920 --> 02:39:54,520 Speaker 1: what are you hearing on the picket line and how 2469 02:39:54,600 --> 02:39:58,080 Speaker 1: is it being received? So the news for the first 2470 02:39:58,200 --> 02:40:02,000 Speaker 1: week was on date bo the s r U bargaining 2471 02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:07,920 Speaker 1: team to accept a seven percent yearly increase cerviuss he 2472 02:40:09,000 --> 02:40:11,040 Speaker 1: adjustment that would be paid and I believe for the 2473 02:40:11,120 --> 02:40:16,000 Speaker 1: median uh rent an increase in I think in the 2474 02:40:16,040 --> 02:40:18,520 Speaker 1: most expensive cities to help working commune San Diego and 2475 02:40:18,680 --> 02:40:23,280 Speaker 1: answer system UM. And to be honest, the strike was 2476 02:40:23,400 --> 02:40:27,880 Speaker 1: sold to the vast majority of of the uh N 2477 02:40:28,000 --> 02:40:32,160 Speaker 1: radicalized on fund educated rank and file as being about 2478 02:40:32,280 --> 02:40:36,600 Speaker 1: the fifty four thousand base paying as well as the 2479 02:40:36,680 --> 02:40:39,960 Speaker 1: access needs as well as uh you know, uh here 2480 02:40:40,000 --> 02:40:43,360 Speaker 1: in the timer employment for some units, UM and various 2481 02:40:43,360 --> 02:40:49,400 Speaker 1: different things. But there was a lot of consternation in 2482 02:40:50,040 --> 02:40:52,000 Speaker 1: on day four, and I think a lot of us 2483 02:40:52,120 --> 02:40:56,440 Speaker 1: became very radicalized, UM when we realized that, not only 2484 02:40:56,680 --> 02:41:01,840 Speaker 1: at the SRU bargaining team, apparently the concession on day 2485 02:41:01,879 --> 02:41:04,240 Speaker 1: four of what was what was supposed to be a 2486 02:41:04,320 --> 02:41:09,199 Speaker 1: very powerful strike, UM, but that concession didn't really resolve 2487 02:41:09,560 --> 02:41:15,120 Speaker 1: the issue of skyrocketing inflation and rent process and um, 2488 02:41:15,560 --> 02:41:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, different campuses weighing in the saying beyond Santa 2489 02:41:18,320 --> 02:41:21,480 Speaker 1: Cruz event went up something like sixty percent in the 2490 02:41:21,600 --> 02:41:26,320 Speaker 1: last year. I'm seven black increase doesn't help us at all. 2491 02:41:26,440 --> 02:41:30,280 Speaker 1: Like the University of California, the largest employer and the 2492 02:41:30,400 --> 02:41:35,760 Speaker 1: largest landlord the state of California is raising you know, 2493 02:41:36,040 --> 02:41:38,600 Speaker 1: their wages by a black rate, and then all the 2494 02:41:38,680 --> 02:41:43,800 Speaker 1: landlords in that area will continue to raise wag of 2495 02:41:43,879 --> 02:41:47,039 Speaker 1: a rent even higher. UM. So a lot of us 2496 02:41:47,080 --> 02:41:50,119 Speaker 1: who were really I wasn't around for the two thousand 2497 02:41:50,160 --> 02:41:54,440 Speaker 1: and twenty Cola wildcat strike. UM. But in the process 2498 02:41:54,640 --> 02:41:59,400 Speaker 1: of this consternation of the s r u BT giving 2499 02:41:59,520 --> 02:42:03,520 Speaker 1: up this uh whole out and space to the media 2500 02:42:03,560 --> 02:42:06,880 Speaker 1: evnt UM, a lot of us we think very uh 2501 02:42:07,400 --> 02:42:12,879 Speaker 1: I also disillusioned, but very radicalized and UM start looking 2502 02:42:12,959 --> 02:42:15,920 Speaker 1: into it more uh HU identities. I could say that 2503 02:42:16,080 --> 02:42:22,160 Speaker 1: our thinketline where we have a philosophy, literature, UH history 2504 02:42:22,600 --> 02:42:27,280 Speaker 1: UM A number of other regulated departments. Who's very militant. UH. 2505 02:42:27,440 --> 02:42:32,000 Speaker 1: That was the first kind of moment of uh consciousness 2506 02:42:32,040 --> 02:42:34,800 Speaker 1: of awareness I think for a lot of us UM. 2507 02:42:35,360 --> 02:42:40,200 Speaker 1: And over the last week is the last two weeks, Yes, 2508 02:42:40,680 --> 02:42:48,520 Speaker 1: I'm kind of internal UM struggle over over tactics and strategy, 2509 02:42:49,360 --> 02:42:53,400 Speaker 1: whether it's reasonable to expect that we can hold out 2510 02:42:53,560 --> 02:42:59,200 Speaker 1: for our aimed the bargaining teams on our campus at 2511 02:42:59,280 --> 02:43:03,280 Speaker 1: least and there are exceptions UM have had generally have 2512 02:43:03,440 --> 02:43:07,119 Speaker 1: generally advanced a sort of moderate line that yeah, before 2513 02:43:07,120 --> 02:43:09,840 Speaker 1: a thousand is high in the sky is great to me. 2514 02:43:10,400 --> 02:43:12,880 Speaker 1: But you know, the way the bargaining works is is 2515 02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:15,720 Speaker 1: you walk or something high and you can get something low. 2516 02:43:16,120 --> 02:43:19,320 Speaker 1: I think we're all, you know, willing to accept that 2517 02:43:19,440 --> 02:43:22,720 Speaker 1: that is how bargaining works. But we have, at least 2518 02:43:22,760 --> 02:43:24,800 Speaker 1: in my figure mine, at least in the humanity has 2519 02:43:25,080 --> 02:43:28,760 Speaker 1: been very uncerted by the tactical decisions to make certain 2520 02:43:28,840 --> 02:43:33,320 Speaker 1: possessions at certain stages without letting the full power of 2521 02:43:33,959 --> 02:43:37,360 Speaker 1: our strike take hold, especially the reholding of brains, which 2522 02:43:37,440 --> 02:43:42,760 Speaker 1: is ing out this week an text week. UM. Another 2523 02:43:42,920 --> 02:43:45,440 Speaker 1: thing which you know, most of us have not been 2524 02:43:45,520 --> 02:43:47,280 Speaker 1: on the bargaining team, and a lot of us are 2525 02:43:47,400 --> 02:43:50,720 Speaker 1: just kind of checking me in, uh to this this 2526 02:43:51,120 --> 02:43:55,039 Speaker 1: very long term process. Pretty late the game, we watched 2527 02:43:55,160 --> 02:43:58,360 Speaker 1: these bargaining and processions and see what you see he's 2528 02:43:58,400 --> 02:44:02,600 Speaker 1: offering definitely just not seem like the bargaining strategy of 2529 02:44:02,920 --> 02:44:07,560 Speaker 1: operating session or to get something else there it is 2530 02:44:07,600 --> 02:44:12,000 Speaker 1: working at home. UM. I think made some compromises on 2531 02:44:12,360 --> 02:44:16,880 Speaker 1: accessibility needs in the hopes that would provoke the u 2532 02:44:17,000 --> 02:44:22,280 Speaker 1: SEE to offer a contragensive economic package. Last TEA included 2533 02:44:22,280 --> 02:44:24,560 Speaker 1: the one white five percent increase for the s R 2534 02:44:24,640 --> 02:44:29,600 Speaker 1: U S proposal and nothing for the A s C S. Wow, yeah, 2535 02:44:29,680 --> 02:44:32,080 Speaker 1: that's it's a that's you're still a long way apart then, 2536 02:44:32,840 --> 02:44:35,760 Speaker 1: so in both, in both the reprouple of Pola on 2537 02:44:35,920 --> 02:44:40,560 Speaker 1: date four, bargaining, I think there's real concern that the 2538 02:44:40,640 --> 02:44:44,640 Speaker 1: bargaining team is getting the short end of stay. Yeah, 2539 02:44:45,120 --> 02:44:47,280 Speaker 1: that's tough if people don't remember from last time. By 2540 02:44:47,280 --> 02:44:50,080 Speaker 1: the way, color is the cost of living adjustment that 2541 02:44:50,280 --> 02:44:54,800 Speaker 1: was the initial cause of the weldcats right, YESLA is 2542 02:44:54,920 --> 02:44:58,840 Speaker 1: possibility adjustment and there is a lot of um uh 2543 02:44:59,520 --> 02:45:04,520 Speaker 1: really in justesting discorse from out what that people are changing. 2544 02:45:04,600 --> 02:45:08,440 Speaker 1: No hola, no contracts data mind. COLA has as meetings 2545 02:45:08,520 --> 02:45:14,560 Speaker 1: specifically a yearly percentage increase that is tied to exmedient 2546 02:45:14,640 --> 02:45:21,080 Speaker 1: rent exmedian man, whereas party team has had argued that 2547 02:45:21,480 --> 02:45:27,960 Speaker 1: a seven percent yearly increased qualify as form right, but 2548 02:45:28,080 --> 02:45:31,960 Speaker 1: maybe less than inflation given certainly less in rent, given 2549 02:45:32,000 --> 02:45:33,440 Speaker 1: what rent has done in the last couple of years. 2550 02:45:34,160 --> 02:45:37,560 Speaker 1: And these universities are in very desirable places to live 2551 02:45:37,640 --> 02:45:40,560 Speaker 1: with very high rents. They don't offer subsidut or they 2552 02:45:40,560 --> 02:45:44,199 Speaker 1: didn't offer significantly subsidized housing, especially to grad students often 2553 02:45:44,400 --> 02:45:47,400 Speaker 1: assescially not to all grad students, and so yeah, it 2554 02:45:47,840 --> 02:45:50,880 Speaker 1: becomes very difficult to live even on what would seem 2555 02:45:50,959 --> 02:45:55,160 Speaker 1: like a decent wage and unless you want to commute 2556 02:45:55,160 --> 02:45:59,199 Speaker 1: a long way something like and I have the story 2557 02:45:59,280 --> 02:46:04,920 Speaker 1: and I political Sciences that the vast majority of graduate 2558 02:46:04,959 --> 02:46:07,520 Speaker 1: streets through report said that they were event burned to 2559 02:46:07,680 --> 02:46:12,240 Speaker 1: them by signed for there anyone to meant most people 2560 02:46:12,640 --> 02:46:16,840 Speaker 1: not to its more like sementins. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And 2561 02:46:16,879 --> 02:46:19,240 Speaker 1: you can find yourself in that situation working for the 2562 02:46:19,320 --> 02:46:21,840 Speaker 1: university and with the university also as your landlord, and 2563 02:46:21,920 --> 02:46:24,840 Speaker 1: you're paying the Sciences, which you know it has control 2564 02:46:24,879 --> 02:46:28,000 Speaker 1: over both ends, and it's not doing much to help anyone. 2565 02:46:28,680 --> 02:46:31,560 Speaker 1: Let's talk about withholding grade because that's coming up, right, 2566 02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:34,840 Speaker 1: and that's kind of the next level of escalation, I suppose, 2567 02:46:35,000 --> 02:46:38,560 Speaker 1: or like that the next hurdle um that's coming up. 2568 02:46:38,680 --> 02:46:42,360 Speaker 1: So what do is withholding grades look like? Can and 2569 02:46:42,400 --> 02:46:44,879 Speaker 1: can you explain why there's sort of a pedagogical reason 2570 02:46:45,000 --> 02:46:48,720 Speaker 1: that people would be obviously like worried about doing that 2571 02:46:48,879 --> 02:46:52,840 Speaker 1: or so it's this sort of barrier and what it 2572 02:46:52,840 --> 02:46:54,680 Speaker 1: would do to the university and what it would do 2573 02:46:55,320 --> 02:46:59,840 Speaker 1: to your students as well. Yes, so fundamentally, the with 2574 02:47:00,000 --> 02:47:03,680 Speaker 1: holding grades is the withholding of the alternate finishing product 2575 02:47:04,160 --> 02:47:07,360 Speaker 1: of our labor. Uh. We can talk about pedagogy and 2576 02:47:07,480 --> 02:47:12,160 Speaker 1: ideology and and you know, high the Ivory Tower rush 2577 02:47:12,200 --> 02:47:13,680 Speaker 1: as we want, but at the end of the day, 2578 02:47:13,959 --> 02:47:19,120 Speaker 1: when when UH undergraduate at the University of California pays 2579 02:47:19,200 --> 02:47:23,160 Speaker 1: their fruition, they expect to get grades and transcripts in return. 2580 02:47:23,600 --> 02:47:27,320 Speaker 1: And the reputation of that, you see that makes it 2581 02:47:28,000 --> 02:47:31,560 Speaker 1: one of the premier public institutions in the world is 2582 02:47:31,720 --> 02:47:36,199 Speaker 1: that that grading uh is is accredited to be reflective 2583 02:47:36,240 --> 02:47:39,160 Speaker 1: a very high quality and of education. We are saying 2584 02:47:39,280 --> 02:47:44,280 Speaker 1: that we are not providing that old tomate. The record UM, 2585 02:47:44,480 --> 02:47:47,880 Speaker 1: which any end is is you know, uh, what a 2586 02:47:47,959 --> 02:47:53,360 Speaker 1: student would uh demonstrate if they were applying to graduate school, UH, 2587 02:47:53,520 --> 02:47:57,920 Speaker 1: if they were um b d internship, really anything that 2588 02:47:58,480 --> 02:48:04,040 Speaker 1: uh reflax their college experience, UH would be hide that great. 2589 02:48:04,680 --> 02:48:07,680 Speaker 1: We are also saying that, you know, in addition to 2590 02:48:07,800 --> 02:48:15,240 Speaker 1: that very brutal kind of explicit uh, the result uh 2591 02:48:15,800 --> 02:48:18,560 Speaker 1: the pedagogy itself is also it's not that you know, 2592 02:48:18,720 --> 02:48:21,760 Speaker 1: students are here to learn and and they might complain 2593 02:48:21,800 --> 02:48:24,640 Speaker 1: in an individual class, but by largely do get a 2594 02:48:24,720 --> 02:48:28,400 Speaker 1: lot from their education. And if they're not being actively 2595 02:48:28,480 --> 02:48:33,000 Speaker 1: taught by their teaching assistance, UM, they're suffering. In the 2596 02:48:33,360 --> 02:48:36,960 Speaker 1: MMW program that you and I vote up for. The 2597 02:48:37,120 --> 02:48:41,720 Speaker 1: lectures are but they're very you know, it's a it's 2598 02:48:41,720 --> 02:48:44,080 Speaker 1: a very large lecture hall. It's kind of a general 2599 02:48:44,200 --> 02:48:49,160 Speaker 1: just the vast majority of instruction, both in the historical 2600 02:48:49,320 --> 02:48:52,400 Speaker 1: cultural UH content of the course as well as in 2601 02:48:52,520 --> 02:48:57,720 Speaker 1: the UH the writing UH aspect, which is the point 2602 02:48:57,760 --> 02:49:02,560 Speaker 1: of the program to deploy skilled analytical academic writers UM, 2603 02:49:02,840 --> 02:49:05,480 Speaker 1: and they are not getting that at all. That's something 2604 02:49:05,520 --> 02:49:07,880 Speaker 1: that's a burden that is carried on under present by 2605 02:49:08,080 --> 02:49:11,680 Speaker 1: the t A s and by holding that and UH, 2606 02:49:13,000 --> 02:49:16,760 Speaker 1: it prevents the students from receiving equality education essentially. So 2607 02:49:17,000 --> 02:49:22,080 Speaker 1: you're hoping that, particularly in the humanities, where our LABORI 2608 02:49:22,160 --> 02:49:26,840 Speaker 1: is comply irreplaceable, UM, that will pressure the university. Now 2609 02:49:27,000 --> 02:49:31,200 Speaker 1: we have been hearing that UM some universities have been 2610 02:49:31,280 --> 02:49:34,880 Speaker 1: given the laterally extending the deadline for final bids. And 2611 02:49:34,959 --> 02:49:38,280 Speaker 1: I believe that UH either Riverside or Irvine, and just 2612 02:49:38,800 --> 02:49:42,400 Speaker 1: a message about this kind of extended January. There's a 2613 02:49:42,440 --> 02:49:45,960 Speaker 1: lot of sort of confusion about what that would entail it. 2614 02:49:46,920 --> 02:49:49,200 Speaker 1: You know, the strike is over and we all go back. 2615 02:49:49,520 --> 02:49:56,400 Speaker 1: We then not to facto. Um. It seems like some 2616 02:49:56,760 --> 02:50:02,439 Speaker 1: faculty have either in solidarity or are in uh desperation, 2617 02:50:03,400 --> 02:50:08,600 Speaker 1: decided to final exam change the format of those exams. 2618 02:50:09,160 --> 02:50:13,199 Speaker 1: Um we are I think that group the most afraid 2619 02:50:13,320 --> 02:50:19,960 Speaker 1: that the university will uh ran some sort of doesn't 2620 02:50:20,040 --> 02:50:26,920 Speaker 1: how everybody gets pass. If it would, it would theory 2621 02:50:27,040 --> 02:50:32,560 Speaker 1: weaken the union's power, but it would also weaken the universities. Yea, 2622 02:50:33,440 --> 02:50:39,879 Speaker 1: to require those rates to uh progress de college education 2623 02:50:39,959 --> 02:50:42,080 Speaker 1: in their life, it would be a huge low for 2624 02:50:42,200 --> 02:50:46,200 Speaker 1: them to receive not a letter date, Um yeah, just ape. 2625 02:50:46,840 --> 02:50:49,080 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, there would be a massive step for the 2626 02:50:49,160 --> 02:50:51,880 Speaker 1: university to take in undermining their own status and the 2627 02:50:52,480 --> 02:50:54,320 Speaker 1: well being of their students. Right Like if you have 2628 02:50:54,440 --> 02:50:56,840 Speaker 1: a required class or required great in a certain class 2629 02:50:56,959 --> 02:50:59,000 Speaker 1: to progress to graduate school or to breas to a 2630 02:50:59,040 --> 02:51:03,000 Speaker 1: vocational degree, then um yeah, that that would make it. 2631 02:51:03,400 --> 02:51:07,920 Speaker 1: They could have long term implications for those students, right yeah, yeah, 2632 02:51:07,959 --> 02:51:09,520 Speaker 1: that would be a big step for them. So will 2633 02:51:10,040 --> 02:51:12,320 Speaker 1: I suppose Yeah, that's interesting if they extend it what 2634 02:51:12,480 --> 02:51:14,640 Speaker 1: are you required to go back and redo. That's a 2635 02:51:14,800 --> 02:51:17,920 Speaker 1: huge amount of labor that you would then be doing 2636 02:51:18,080 --> 02:51:21,400 Speaker 1: in a very compact amount of time. Two grade three 2637 02:51:21,520 --> 02:51:25,760 Speaker 1: MW assignments is an endurance challenge. Great normally due in 2638 02:51:25,840 --> 02:51:28,720 Speaker 1: like mid December. Is that still the case, UCSD right now? 2639 02:51:29,000 --> 02:51:32,320 Speaker 1: This is this is weekend? Yeah, the clock is taking 2640 02:51:32,480 --> 02:51:34,760 Speaker 1: So how does the how does this strike look if 2641 02:51:34,800 --> 02:51:36,640 Speaker 1: you go past week ten? Right? If you go not 2642 02:51:36,800 --> 02:51:39,000 Speaker 1: just in terms of withholding grades, but obviously campus is 2643 02:51:39,120 --> 02:51:43,120 Speaker 1: very different when the undergrads aren't there. I don't think 2644 02:51:43,879 --> 02:51:47,360 Speaker 1: really we have discussions about whether or not we're in 2645 02:51:47,440 --> 02:51:50,840 Speaker 1: it for the long haul. We are, I think at 2646 02:51:50,879 --> 02:51:56,160 Speaker 1: the moment, hedging our bets on the next two weeks 2647 02:51:56,240 --> 02:52:01,440 Speaker 1: being in some ways decisive. There are a fashion uh 2648 02:52:03,560 --> 02:52:06,920 Speaker 1: you know, the once finals are are over, are power 2649 02:52:07,040 --> 02:52:12,160 Speaker 1: dramatically weakens. I'm certainly give the UC decided to uh 2650 02:52:13,959 --> 02:52:18,160 Speaker 1: by us the rating for this seemed like that would 2651 02:52:18,200 --> 02:52:20,960 Speaker 1: be a happen hosist. I'm not convinced that they would 2652 02:52:21,000 --> 02:52:24,280 Speaker 1: do that. Um In I do the longer that we 2653 02:52:24,360 --> 02:52:28,840 Speaker 1: withhold those rates, um the look you have the leverage, 2654 02:52:29,320 --> 02:52:31,400 Speaker 1: I don't think the US will just throw up their hands. 2655 02:52:31,600 --> 02:52:33,440 Speaker 1: You know, well be done to find and say, oh, 2656 02:52:33,520 --> 02:52:36,480 Speaker 1: well it's right off, see you next quarter. Yeah. Yeah, 2657 02:52:36,480 --> 02:52:38,080 Speaker 1: I think they have been back trying to hold you out. 2658 02:52:38,400 --> 02:52:40,360 Speaker 1: I'd love to know, like to close out what you've 2659 02:52:40,480 --> 02:52:43,160 Speaker 1: learned through the the three in a bit weeks you've 2660 02:52:43,200 --> 02:52:46,040 Speaker 1: been on strike, and what you think like people should 2661 02:52:46,640 --> 02:52:50,000 Speaker 1: take from this, Like it's an unprecedented era for workers 2662 02:52:50,120 --> 02:52:53,400 Speaker 1: organization in the last thirty years. We've seen more strikes 2663 02:52:53,440 --> 02:52:55,040 Speaker 1: in the last few years and we have in decades. 2664 02:52:55,879 --> 02:53:00,480 Speaker 1: So what can people learn from the UC experience? Yes? Absolutely, UM. 2665 02:53:00,879 --> 02:53:04,400 Speaker 1: One of the things that I have learned which is 2666 02:53:04,640 --> 02:53:09,240 Speaker 1: very salient in my mind. UM, as somebody who started 2667 02:53:09,480 --> 02:53:12,840 Speaker 1: organizing about three or four months before the strike, I 2668 02:53:13,080 --> 02:53:17,360 Speaker 1: was approached to uh be a strikethapton and thinking later 2669 02:53:17,400 --> 02:53:20,120 Speaker 1: I went to various trainings, I h sat in on 2670 02:53:20,280 --> 02:53:25,520 Speaker 1: campus organizing compete meetings, UH and the the ship we 2671 02:53:25,600 --> 02:53:29,040 Speaker 1: were given kind of before the strike began was that 2672 02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:32,440 Speaker 1: we had an incredible amount of power the strike gratification vote, 2673 02:53:32,840 --> 02:53:36,560 Speaker 1: where UH we uh more than three quarters of the 2674 02:53:36,680 --> 02:53:41,760 Speaker 1: graduate students voted overwhelmingly in the many percentile to strike. 2675 02:53:42,480 --> 02:53:45,840 Speaker 1: We all went in with a very powerful sense of 2676 02:53:47,280 --> 02:53:52,160 Speaker 1: the historic nature of the strike and our our our 2677 02:53:52,200 --> 02:53:57,440 Speaker 1: bargains power in our solidarity UM that seemed to be 2678 02:53:57,640 --> 02:54:00,560 Speaker 1: treated by any of the un we d ship as 2679 02:54:00,600 --> 02:54:03,640 Speaker 1: a finite resource, as something that we want of us 2680 02:54:03,680 --> 02:54:06,840 Speaker 1: full to trigger on sent the workers out hope growers 2681 02:54:06,879 --> 02:54:10,440 Speaker 1: part resolution and if we didn't get it, then UM 2682 02:54:11,440 --> 02:54:15,240 Speaker 1: worked to wrap it up as quickly as we can. 2683 02:54:15,560 --> 02:54:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure that I'm giving them a short shrift and 2684 02:54:18,200 --> 02:54:22,080 Speaker 1: that this is probably ultimately an unfair analysis, very much 2685 02:54:22,160 --> 02:54:28,680 Speaker 1: the percentagely that you know this isn't sustainable that we 2686 02:54:28,800 --> 02:54:32,240 Speaker 1: are reaching our pet power. UM. Now is the time 2687 02:54:32,320 --> 02:54:36,800 Speaker 1: to start UH kind of pivoting to making these concessions. 2688 02:54:37,160 --> 02:54:40,720 Speaker 1: And we're all I'm saying that no, this the organizing 2689 02:54:40,800 --> 02:54:44,920 Speaker 1: doesn't stop when you walk out. The organizing begins when 2690 02:54:44,959 --> 02:54:48,360 Speaker 1: you walk out. And for for people like me who 2691 02:54:48,680 --> 02:54:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, had some knowledge I I've experienced in organizing. 2692 02:54:53,120 --> 02:54:58,240 Speaker 1: I've been occupy whom I consider myself very well educated radical, 2693 02:54:58,959 --> 02:55:01,920 Speaker 1: but just at the fact of getting on the picket line, 2694 02:55:02,000 --> 02:55:07,360 Speaker 1: experiencing and talking to my bellow workers across campuses, across 2695 02:55:07,440 --> 02:55:11,680 Speaker 1: picket mines has been energizing and maticalizing all on its 2696 02:55:11,720 --> 02:55:15,920 Speaker 1: own and don't think that the union leadership really knew 2697 02:55:15,959 --> 02:55:18,360 Speaker 1: what to do with that account of language. It the 2698 02:55:18,480 --> 02:55:22,840 Speaker 1: bushes where efficient or horses or whatever that a lot 2699 02:55:22,920 --> 02:55:26,680 Speaker 1: of speel with the our campus MUNI leadership ought to 2700 02:55:26,800 --> 02:55:30,080 Speaker 1: have done a better job with the uh the day 2701 02:55:30,160 --> 02:55:35,080 Speaker 1: to day energizing UM. One issue that uh you know 2702 02:55:35,240 --> 02:55:40,520 Speaker 1: a camblames specifically on a specific barbeting unit or uh 2703 02:55:40,879 --> 02:55:45,760 Speaker 1: even that you U a w T suspive Um, but 2704 02:55:46,200 --> 02:55:49,440 Speaker 1: it's a hunter wal comes from above is at um. 2705 02:55:50,600 --> 02:55:52,760 Speaker 1: If you do not pick it, you do not actively 2706 02:55:53,000 --> 02:55:56,200 Speaker 1: sign up or picket ships that you do in know 2707 02:55:56,320 --> 02:56:00,280 Speaker 1: this long round, you do not get strike and um 2708 02:56:00,440 --> 02:56:03,280 Speaker 1: And for a lot of us who have accessibility needs 2709 02:56:03,520 --> 02:56:07,520 Speaker 1: or are are not closed to campus, or are withholding 2710 02:56:07,560 --> 02:56:09,680 Speaker 1: their labor and active in the strength in other ways, 2711 02:56:10,000 --> 02:56:12,280 Speaker 1: they feel like there's not really a place for them 2712 02:56:13,640 --> 02:56:17,040 Speaker 1: um and and they're doing equally crucial work. Yes, it's 2713 02:56:17,080 --> 02:56:21,119 Speaker 1: good to have people picketing and on that visibility. Ultimately, 2714 02:56:21,160 --> 02:56:23,960 Speaker 1: if there were two people hitting and everybody else was 2715 02:56:24,040 --> 02:56:27,320 Speaker 1: withholding their labor, we would still win the strength. UM. 2716 02:56:27,560 --> 02:56:30,760 Speaker 1: So there seems to be an overwhelming emphasis on the 2717 02:56:30,959 --> 02:56:37,000 Speaker 1: visible single of our power and our solidarity and the 2718 02:56:38,840 --> 02:56:42,879 Speaker 1: concession that was made in day four was explained by 2719 02:56:43,680 --> 02:56:47,960 Speaker 1: the dwindling uh amount of people who were showing up 2720 02:56:48,080 --> 02:56:50,840 Speaker 1: for pickets, you know from day one to two excreation 2721 02:56:50,920 --> 02:56:52,960 Speaker 1: be four um, and a lot of us tried to 2722 02:56:53,000 --> 02:56:55,560 Speaker 1: push that on that. So yes, you know, it's it's 2723 02:56:56,600 --> 02:57:01,760 Speaker 1: hard to sustain that physical progressing. Yeah, but we should 2724 02:57:01,800 --> 02:57:08,400 Speaker 1: be also working to bolster and encourage and harness the 2725 02:57:08,480 --> 02:57:13,160 Speaker 1: power of those workers many every day, but nevertheless doing 2726 02:57:14,120 --> 02:57:17,400 Speaker 1: apprecial labor stop. Yeah, is this did a remote picking 2727 02:57:17,440 --> 02:57:22,480 Speaker 1: option to that account? Yes, yes, there is, uh you know, 2728 02:57:22,840 --> 02:57:26,720 Speaker 1: in any in any organization by uh you know, uh 2729 02:57:28,400 --> 02:57:31,960 Speaker 1: massive workers. There's these growing pains and nariations in the 2730 02:57:32,080 --> 02:57:36,040 Speaker 1: first in the first week of I am dueling remote 2731 02:57:36,080 --> 02:57:39,200 Speaker 1: coordinators with separate lists. They resolved, and they seem to 2732 02:57:39,240 --> 02:57:41,160 Speaker 1: have been resolved by now the same thing with some 2733 02:57:41,320 --> 02:57:48,480 Speaker 1: delays in process things strike, pay count disbursements. Again, there's 2734 02:57:48,520 --> 02:57:52,680 Speaker 1: there's no shading as happening. It's just doing this for 2735 02:57:52,800 --> 02:57:55,880 Speaker 1: the first time. Um. But for but for people who 2736 02:57:56,600 --> 02:57:59,080 Speaker 1: for uh you know, sort of on the fence or 2737 02:57:59,760 --> 02:58:04,280 Speaker 1: not I really important this h that was a real 2738 02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:09,680 Speaker 1: big stressor for them. Their their willingness to kind of 2739 02:58:09,760 --> 02:58:12,960 Speaker 1: be out there. Really. Yeah, that totally makes sense, and yeah, 2740 02:58:12,959 --> 02:58:15,440 Speaker 1: it's it's already a stressful time, but like you said, 2741 02:58:15,480 --> 02:58:18,120 Speaker 1: these things will have people will learning the process, right, 2742 02:58:18,200 --> 02:58:21,960 Speaker 1: like it's new for so many people. It's unprecedented to 2743 02:58:22,000 --> 02:58:24,040 Speaker 1: have like ten percent of the graduate students in the 2744 02:58:24,120 --> 02:58:28,280 Speaker 1: country with holding their labor and so like, they will 2745 02:58:28,320 --> 02:58:30,880 Speaker 1: of course be growing paint. And I think often when 2746 02:58:30,920 --> 02:58:32,760 Speaker 1: we look at strikes, like both you and me as 2747 02:58:32,879 --> 02:58:35,880 Speaker 1: historians and as consumers of the news, we like we 2748 02:58:35,959 --> 02:58:38,520 Speaker 1: see one photo of a bunch of people like in hives, 2749 02:58:38,560 --> 02:58:41,480 Speaker 1: standing around a brazier, and then three weeks later we 2750 02:58:41,560 --> 02:58:45,400 Speaker 1: read another story about a resolution contract, right, and in fact, 2751 02:58:45,560 --> 02:58:49,040 Speaker 1: what makes a strike powerful is feeding people and being 2752 02:58:49,440 --> 02:58:53,200 Speaker 1: showing up and looking out for one another. So like 2753 02:58:53,320 --> 02:58:56,640 Speaker 1: that's what we're trying to document. Thanks so much, Matt, 2754 02:58:56,760 --> 02:59:00,600 Speaker 1: And I wonder where people can find if you'd like 2755 02:59:00,640 --> 02:59:02,520 Speaker 1: to give your own social media or where people can 2756 02:59:02,560 --> 02:59:05,200 Speaker 1: find strike updates from the u S and from UC 2757 02:59:05,360 --> 02:59:08,200 Speaker 1: San Diego, anything like that you want to plug. Yes, 2758 02:59:08,280 --> 02:59:11,960 Speaker 1: I'm partisan in this, but I would highly recommend not 2759 02:59:13,120 --> 02:59:16,360 Speaker 1: getting strike updates from the u C San Diego. So yeah, 2760 02:59:16,640 --> 02:59:19,800 Speaker 1: from the campus, now from the university here, so fair 2761 02:59:19,959 --> 02:59:25,360 Speaker 1: you see now dot org. Yeah, I think it's I 2762 02:59:25,440 --> 02:59:30,320 Speaker 1: think it's an old on the ground. Yeah, dealing with 2763 02:59:30,440 --> 02:59:34,760 Speaker 1: documents too much. A great place on Twitter has also 2764 02:59:34,840 --> 02:59:41,160 Speaker 1: been very all of its current yeah to date information. 2765 02:59:41,640 --> 02:59:43,960 Speaker 1: Can you tell us e venmo where people can like 2766 02:59:44,080 --> 02:59:47,440 Speaker 1: hell in the true Spanish historian fashion feed? Everyone? Have 2767 02:59:47,560 --> 02:59:50,240 Speaker 1: you got a giant pie out there? You like with 2768 02:59:50,400 --> 02:59:53,960 Speaker 1: the spade? So I will clarify this is a This 2769 02:59:54,160 --> 02:59:58,320 Speaker 1: is an uneficial Yeah, this is not the u a 2770 02:59:58,640 --> 03:00:05,720 Speaker 1: WU worldwide, but the particulars on the USC campus organizing 2771 03:00:05,840 --> 03:00:13,680 Speaker 1: meeting the problem lines is at UCSD dash strike nice. Yeah, 2772 03:00:13,840 --> 03:00:16,680 Speaker 1: easy to remember and hopefully you get some donations. Thanks, 2773 03:00:16,760 --> 03:00:22,960 Speaker 1: I'm your time, Matt, I appreciate it. Hey, We'll be 2774 03:00:23,040 --> 03:00:26,400 Speaker 1: back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 2775 03:00:26,400 --> 03:00:28,880 Speaker 1: the heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here 2776 03:00:28,959 --> 03:00:31,600 Speaker 1: is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 2777 03:00:31,600 --> 03:00:34,160 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 2778 03:00:34,240 --> 03:00:36,039 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 2779 03:00:36,120 --> 03:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2780 03:00:39,560 --> 03:00:41,640 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 2781 03:00:41,720 --> 03:00:45,199 Speaker 1: monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 2782 03:00:45,240 --> 03:00:45,720 Speaker 1: for listening.