WEBVTT - What Should You Do With Climate Despair? A Conversation with Wen Stephenson 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.400 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:14.240 we are bringing you another one of our Drilling Deep 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:19.520 series in which Adam Lowenstein talks to an author about 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:25.240 a recent book that touches on climate, or politics, or democracy, 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:30.800 or some combination thereof. Today Adam speaks with when Stephenson, 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.520 the journalist, an activist, and author of the new book 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.520 Learning to Live in the Dark, essays in a Time 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.640 of Catastrophe. In it, Stevenson argues that the only way 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.800 to confront the crises of our time is to meet 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.000 despair head on, to see it for what it is, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:50.720 to feel it, and to accept what it means about 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.000 where we are and where we need to go. Over 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:58.000 the summer, Adam spoke with Stevenson about how he processes 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:02.880 his own climate despair, what scholars of totalitarianism like Hannah 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.920 Arentt and Albert Camu can teach us about fossil fascism, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.959 and whether a mass movement for climate action might not 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:16.280 come together until enough people are desperate enough. This conversation 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.320 is a lot like how Stevenson describes his book. It's 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.800 about how to live into this era of climate and 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.240 political and social catastrophe. While holding on to our humanity. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:31.400 Just a note before we get into it that this 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:36.240 conversation does briefly discuss suicide. If you are in crisis, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.360 please call or text or chat with the Suicide and 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.560 Crisis Lifeline at nine to eighty eight, or contact the 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:47.840 crisis text line by texting talk tl K to seven 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.480 four to one, seven four one. Here's Adam and. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:02:00.160 When m. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.959 As a starting point, I wanted to ask you how 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.359 you're feeling about having this book out in the world, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.640 because there's a lot of a lot of you and 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.360 a lot of processing in the book that is now 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.040 available for everyone to see and feel and read. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.160 Yeah, I mean, uh, it feels it's strange. I mean, 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:34.440 I mean, I've written personal essays for a long time. Uh. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.440 And you know it's worth it's worth noting off the top, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.800 right that like, the vast majority of this book is 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.360 not about me. Uh, there's a there's some very personal 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.560 stuff in it, of course, but but and and that 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.919 runs kind of as a thread through the through the essays, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.079 you know, all the way to the end. But but 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.480 the vast, vast majority of the book is not about me. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.799 But you know, it's a it's a risk, right, it's 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.240 a risk one takes as a writer if you're going 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.880 to get personal, and it's even a risk of another 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.040 of a special kind as a you know, and I understand, 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:14.320 I understand why the reasons why, just as a you know, 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:19.400 a white straight cismle you know, writing on the you know, 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.480 within the left, you know, to kind of be personal 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.840 because it's like, well, why should my story matter that much? 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.920 You know? And I try to acknowledge that obviously off 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:38.080 the top, like what are my struggles compared to you know, 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.240 you know, the vast majority of people on the planet, 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.880 you know, right, you know, and even in my own 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:45.080 community for that matter. 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.560 Yeah, I wrestle with that idea of it almost feels 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.560 indulgent sometimes. I don't think it does to most people. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.640 On the other side, your book did not feel indulgent 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.880 or self indulgent to me, But it can feel that 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.000 way from the writer's perspective. 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.320 Right exactly. And so and that's why we have editors, 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.760 and that's why we you know, that's why you know, 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:07.480 this was not a blog, right, I mean, I'm not 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:13.960 just spewing this out there. This is very carefully considered, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.840 you know, writing. But I do think it's important to 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.800 bring the personal. It can be important, you know, to 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.520 bring the personal into books like this. I mean, maybe 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.159 it's worth saying just like what kind of a book 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.480 this is and what kind it's not, and like why 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.880 I wrote it. I mean, it's definitely a climate book, right, 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.320 but I mean that is the overarching and the and 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.599 the and the unifying kind of you know, thread or 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.120 theme you know of the book. And I'm a climate 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.240 writer and a climate activist and so on. But it's 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.200 it's really not a typical climate book, at least I 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.800 think the way that usually is that, you know, is 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.880 the term is used in the publishing world, you know, 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:01.120 because it's not a policy book, and it's not a 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:02.920 solutions book, you. 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.800 Know, which I found very refreshing. Okay, I'll probably get 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:07.960 into that a little bit later. 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah we should. We should. There's lots to 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.320 be said about that. But it is, as you've noted, 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.279 it's a very personal book and you know, and it's 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.800 and it's a very literary book, right, I mean, it's 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.839 it's it's about much of it. Most of it. These 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:28.719 essays are about writers and thinkers, you know, and and yeah, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.920 there's a certain amount of political analysis, and you know, 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:38.800 even polemic in the book. For sure, that's certainly part 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.440 of it and part of who I am as a writer, 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.240 and you know, but but more than that, I think 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.520 it's what it is essentially, is a kind of moral 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:51.719 ethical inquiry into as kind of the title implies, like 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:57.560 how to live into this era of climate and political 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:03.600 and social catastrophe that's upon us while holding on to 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.280 our humanity. I mean that that phrase, you know, can 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.920 become a cliche, of course, but I hope that in 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.040 my book it's not, because I try to go very 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:17.479 deeply into what that means under various you know, various scenarios, 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:18.960 and what it has meant in the past, and what 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.960 there is to learn, you know, from writers and thinkers 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.760 of the past, so on that kind of personal level. 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.039 You know, when I was in my really darkest moments 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.400 in sort of twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, like a lot 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.200 of other people, you know, and then again at various 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.440 times over these last eight years, as I was writing 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.279 this series of essays, I went looking I kind of 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:48.919 instinctively reached for a certain group of writers and thinkers 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.560 of the mid twentieth century, you know, these kind of iconic, 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.120 and I it certainly wasn't the only person doing this 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.279 in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, you know, but these like 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:03.359 iconic anti fascist and anti totalitarian thinkers and writers like 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:09.240 Hannah Arendt and Albert Camu and Simon Vais and others, 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.280 you know. And I even ended up, you know, looking 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.880 very closely at the great anti colonial revolutionary fronts, finol. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.120 You know, that's where the book ends up. And I 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.640 was looking for a sort of like the intellectual and 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:29.760 moral and even spiritual sources of or resources sort of 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.240 like for not as I say, you know, not hope, 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.120 because I feel that term and that concept is kind 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.120 of abstract and is means many different things to different people. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.920 But more like we'll get into that a bit, like yeah, weinge. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.000 Into that too, more like, as I say, resolve. What 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.960 I needed was resolve to just stay in the fight. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.200 And so you know, I went looking for a reason 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.680 to live and to keep fighting. And what I found 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:04.880 in these writers and others, you know, including contemporaries of ours, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:11.000 is really universal human solidarity. I mean, that's that's what 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:15.600 I found and or had reaffirmed for me, you know. 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.720 And I mean like across all our divisions of race 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:25.600 and gender and class and ideology and religion, you know, 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.120 just probably the most important quote in the book, or 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:30.680 one of them. There are a lot of quotes in 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:35.040 this book, maybe the most important, the one that means 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.400 the most to me. I use as one of the 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:42.400 epigraphs for the book. It's from Camu's novel The Plague, which, 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:45.320 if you or anyone else listening to this has not 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.079 read Camu's The Plague, I highly recommend it. But it's 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.880 where the main character, Doctor Rue is talking to priest 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.880 Father Parlous. The doctor says to the priest at a 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.880 very intense moment in their fight against the plague, we're 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:07.760 fighting for something that brings us together, beyond blasphemys and prayers. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.240 It's all that matters when I look at across our movements, 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.160 you know, on the left, and I think about my 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.000 comrades and just and I think about members of my 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.280 own family who are deeply conservative. For that matter, I'm 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.800 looking for, you know, what it is that could actually 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:33.320 hold us together in the face of just now unimaginable 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:40.040 you know, suffering and oppression and pain, you know, and darkness. 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:46.200 That gets at something that we've sometimes explicitly throughout the book, 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.960 which is this idea of despair? Yeah, and I think 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.800 to say that the book is just you processing a 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:56.800 sense of despair, it is that, but it's a lot 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:02.559 more than that. And you go two great lengths to 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:08.000 differentiate despair from nihilism or on the other end of 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.960 the feel good spectrum, optimism and hope. As we talked 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:17.240 about briefly before, can you talk about what despair how 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.079 you think about despair in the context of the climate crisis. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:26.000 Absolutely, you're right, I mean this is central. I mean, 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.200 this is the title of the book, right, how to learn, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:33.240 you know, learning to Live in the Dark, which was 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:36.720 the title. It's sort of the title essay of the book. 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.240 My essay on Hannah Arendt in the Time of Trump 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.880 and Climate was the first essay I really wrote in 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:47.320 this series back in twenty seventeen. I was looking for 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:52.400 someone who could help me, you know, confront really look 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:58.840 into the abyss, right, and there are few who did 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:07.160 that kind of more productively than Hannah Arendt. Okay, Yeah, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.679 I guess the first thing that's important to say is 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:15.640 that given what we're up against, right, that despair is warranted. 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:20.720 That's really central for me, and that it's not you know, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.679 I say this kind of flippantly, but not really because 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.280 I say, you know, it's not a sin, right, I mean, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.880 you know for Catholics it's like one, I'm not Catholic, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:35.520 but I was raised in a conservative Christian family. But 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.440 you know, despair is not a sin, okay, as some 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:44.120 would say. It's not like moral weakness or a flaw 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:48.679 in your character. It's entirely understandable. In fact, it's rational 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.480 on some level. But but given those caveats, right, it 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:57.720 is dangerous. It can lead to some very dark places 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.480 almost by definition, right, it is those dark places, and 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.079 and so it's dangerous, and it's defeating, you know, especially politically, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.760 like for anyone engaged in social and political movements, it's defeating. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.400 So it's something that needs to be worked through, preferably 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:20.480 with others, like preferably in community, right if possible, or 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:25.360 you know, like myself, with a therapist. You knows, as 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.800 I did and still do. You know, but I think 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:34.079 I can honestly say that I've I've learned to live 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.800 with despair or you know, even the kind that has 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:43.040 led me at times to question my own desire to live, 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.280 you know, like I've never really been truly like in 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.760 a suicidal place, Like I've never attempted to end my life, 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.160 but i've but I've been close to that, I think, 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.880 And and it's worth also saying that, you know, anyone 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.160 listening to this, if that's where you are or you 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:07.320 know have been there or are there now, please please 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.880 like talk to talk to someone, Talk to your friends, 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:15.160 talk to your closest friends or loved ones, someone you trust, 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.120 you know, if you need to talk to a therapist, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:23.680 please reach out. The National Suicide Prevention Hotline is nine 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.880 to eight eight. Yeah, I mean, I take this. I 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.120 take this very seriously. I don't I don't lightly write 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.040 about this, you know, it's a I take it seriously 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.679 as a response, you know, my responsibility as a writer 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.880 broaching this topic in public. But really, uh, you know, 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.440 we don't want to lose you. You know, we don't 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.559 want to lose anyone. We can't afford to lose you. 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.160 You know, you're needed and you're loved, and there is 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.640 help if you reach out for it. So I just 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.880 want to say that. But there's more, so much more 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:54.800 to be said on this. But I guess the most 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.000 important thing also is that about you know, the way 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.240 I come at it in this book is I found 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.840 that what's required for me to live with my despair, Like, 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.120 I don't believe this despair is like an end point. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.000 There was a beautiful essay by Hanef Abdekery in The 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.600 New Yorker recently about despair. I think it was called 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:16.840 in Defense of Despair. 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.560 I think I saw that beautiful essay. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.400 I highly recommend it, and and it wasn't really at 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.240 all about climate change or anything. But one of the 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.760 main points he was making is that it doesn't have 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.000 to be an end point. You know, something that it's 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.160 not giving up, right, it's not giving up. It's something 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.480 that you can work through and learn to live with. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.400 Because I can say, even though I've learned to live 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.200 with it, it's still there, right, It's still in me. 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.560 So what I found I needed was not just some 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.760 kind of quote unquote hope you know which I mean, 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:50.960 what does that word even mean anymore in the context 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.720 of climate like we really have to I mean, now, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:55.240 I know a lot of people do use that term 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.000 and have written about it beautifully, and so I think 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.760 there are good answers to that. But but I just 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.880 needed something sturdier, like I needed, like I said, resolve, 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.920 Like for me, hope is abstract, it's you know, resolve 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.640 is visceral. It's like in your body, it's what you Yeah. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.720 So I had to actually kind of let go of hope, 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.600 you know, any kind of abstract, cost free hope, you know, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.680 in order to find my resolve. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.480 When it comes to thinking about despair. I think I've 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.640 found that the honesty around it to be pretty refreshing 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.880 and feels like if we are to confront this, this 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.920 crisis of our making pretending it's not so bad, it's 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.600 probably not a good place to start. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.320 Yeah. Yeah, I know that that's very well said, and 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:51.040 I think that that's really partly what's been driving me 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.320 for several years and writing about this. You know, I 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.360 want to give a shout out because I think there 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.200 are other writers that, certainly in the climate space, who 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.280 have have done this. I'm certainly not the only one, 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.600 and shout out to Mary Heglar, who I know as 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:12.120 a friend of drill and is someone who I think 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.800 has has done a wonderful job over the years of 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.720 being of that emotional honesty you know, that kind of 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.880 not just intellectual honesty, but emotional honesty about about dealing 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.080 with this, uh, with this stuff. And you know, I 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.040 think if if there's something I can say that is, 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.000 you know, for lack of a better word, hopeful. 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:33.880 I am pro hope. 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:34.280 Yeah. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.920 I actually think I think choosing hope is the only 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:38.680 way forward. 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:39.000 Yeah. 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.760 Yeah, And I think it can coexist with despair in 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.600 a way that you you managed to thread that needle 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:45.520 in this book. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.680 Yeah, and and to not And just to be clear, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.480 like I know plenty of people who have who have 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:57.720 found their way to a more complex and deeper meaning 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.800 of hope than the kind of simplistic, you know version, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.480 that shallow version that it gets thrown around so often. 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.359 But and I deeply respect that. And well, you know 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.840 what those folks and I are probably talking about the 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.600 same exact thing. You know, I've just found some other 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.680 words for it. But if I could say something, you know, yeah, 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:22.080 like positive, it's that I think what I have found 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.600 is that for me, the resolve is found in relationship 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.560 to other people. It's found in other people, It's found 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.280 in each other. Right, Like the title of my first 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.800 book was what We're fighting For? Now is each other right, 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.719 And so for me, the source of my resolve is 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:44.679 that human solidarity. It's it's you. You know, it's you, Adam, 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.159 It's you and all the folks that drilled and everybody 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.960 listening to this podcast. You know, it's like, y'all are 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.800 the source of my resolve at the end of the day. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.879 And I think that what I you know, I've found 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.240 over the course of a decade and a half working 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.000 in social movements, you know, mainly the climate justice movement, 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.800 is that's what it is for most people. That's what 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.400 keeps us going is each other and that sense of solidarity. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.440 That might sound somewhat pat or something, but sometimes the 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.000 simple things, simple statements are true. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.560 I don't think it does sound pat, although I like you, 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.480 I understand how people could take it that way. In 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.879 part for something that you for a reason you mentioned 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.399 in the book, or at least that you touch on 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.879 in the book, is words like solidarity are too often 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.080 thrown around. But the idea of solidarity, and I think 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.679 you discussed it in the context of global solidarity. We 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.000 like to talk about it, but it's the phrase in 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.760 some ways has become almost meaningless. 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.080 Yeah, well it is meaningless without the kind of action 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:49.040 that's really required in order to body it and to 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.639 you know, make it real. And I would also another 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.440 shout out, I mean I would I'd really send people 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:03.000 to the writing of Astra Taylor and Leah Hunt Hendrix 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.720 and or you know, they add on solidarity that is 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.679 really a beautiful exploration of what it means and should 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.920 mean and can mean for us right now. 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:17.400 What you mentioned there about the kind of authentic, real solidarity, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:21.520 the human connection, the person to person engagement, the thing 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.560 that keeps you going, the thing that will probably keep 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.720 the climate movement going, the thing that will keep humanity 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.240 going as it has thus far, is you know, being 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.040 with other people. That is that's definitely a theme in 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.000 the book. And you talk, you know, whether it's Camu 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.480 or Hannah or Rent or some of the others, there 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.040 is this idea that they come back to a lot 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.919 that you surface in your own book, which is, you know, 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.879 a real human being in front of you versus an 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.879 abstraction of the concept of humanity. You know, describing people, 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:00.760 let's say, as superfluous is sort of a key tenet 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:05.359 of a totalitarian state, totalitarian way of seeing the world. 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:07.480 Can you talk about that a little bit, you know, 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.600 to talitarianism as a way of understanding the climate crisis. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.119 And I feel like we don't we hear a lot 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.720 about Hannah Rent and other philosophers these days for good reason, Yeah, 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.480 but we don't hear it in the context of climate 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:20.000 as much necessarily. 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.920 Yeah, I think this is a really central question. And 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.840 what kind of dawned on me is I was reading 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.720 The Origins of Totalitarianism. You know, it's great work that 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.160 she first published in the early fifties and then updated 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:43.960 in the later sixties. What is it that enables a system, 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:53.920 a political system to develop that essentially dehumanizes everyone who 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.160 is under its domination? And there, of course are historical. 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.080 I mean, we can go back well before the mid 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:05.320 twentieth century and look at the system of chattel slavery 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:14.280 or the global slave trade, or definitely colonialism, and which 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.520 closely related of course, And as I think it was 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:22.840 a mess Are who made the seminole argument that in 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:27.280 some ways totalitarianism and fascism and in Europe in the 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.679 twentieth century was sort of was colonialism coming home to 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:35.959 roost in Europe. But what struck me about that in 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.400 relation to the climate crisis. I was trying to somehow 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:45.880 come to grips with what kind of mindset enables someone 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:52.560 in a political system to pursue relentless expansion of fossil 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.120 fuels in the face of the science that we have. 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.280 And as we all know, the leaders of the fossil 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.400 fuel industry and the lobby and the politicians who are 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:08.119 all part of that, they know full well what they're doing. 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:12.480 They know full well what the climate science says, and. 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:14.160 Some of them knew before we did it. 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:19.560 Exactly Exxon has known for many decades. And what kind 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.159 of a mindset allows you to just keep the pedal 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:28.320 to the metal and accelerate into the abit off off 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:29.040 of the cliff. 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.840 Yeah they're not all sociopaths. There's a lot of them. Yeah, Yeah, 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:33.679 they're not all right. 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:36.320 And the answer is maybe just as simple as that. 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:40.399 It doesn't require theorizing, you know, the relationship between that 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.879 and totalitarianism. Okay, in some ways I am overthinking it, right, 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.359 but it helped me. It helped me because you know, 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:55.240 aren't you know? Analysis of the totalitarian mindset really helped me. 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.760 And it had to do with the kind of that 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:04.800 this belief in the limitless nature of power, okay, and 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.960 a kind of pursuit of power and domination that requires yes, 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:14.680 turning you know, entire populations of humanity and and you know, 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:21.119 really everyone under its sway, treating them as superfluous meaning 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:26.040 you know, not at all useful or relevant to the 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:31.000 ultimate end, which is, you know, complete domination. And if 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.800 you think about it, that is precisely what the fossil 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:38.040 capital regime really is pursuing. It is a form of 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:42.639 global domination, you know, it is it is subjecting the 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:48.959 entire human population to these catastrophic consequences and to the power, 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:53.879 the sheer economic and political power of this industry and 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:58.000 its political regime. Right. You know, I could probably do 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:05.760 a better job of articulating all. Read the book. Read 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:07.480 that chapter. It's the first chapter of. 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.280 The book, though it does pop up throughout the rest 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:10.640 of the book. 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:12.200 The y Yeah, yeah, I come back to it, of 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:13.919 course at the end. And maybe I don't know if 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.320 you were planning to ask me about this, but yeah, 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.680 let's go there. Yeah. The last chapter, which is a 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.760 new essay and it's the one long essay of the 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.080 book that's original to the book, is about fanol Franz Fanol, 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.600 who folks aren't familiar, is the author of the great 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:34.400 anti colonial revolutionary manifesto, The Wretched of the Earth right, 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.320 which came out in nineteen sixty one or two, and 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:42.960 he was deeply involved. He was a martiniquean French black 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:52.240 writer and psychiatrist who was educated in France and ended 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:56.560 up getting deeply involved in the Algerian War of Independence, 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:01.800 the Algerian revolution that threw off French French colonial rule. 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:07.040 I write about Phenoe in the context of Gaza and 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.919 the genocide that we're now seeing there. I was looking 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:17.040 to that because again I have this sense that the 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:23.280 climate struggle, climate justice struggle will never really be as 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:27.640 radical as it needs to be, as fearless and as 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:31.359 serious as it needs to be, until enough enough people 0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:35.960