1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: we are bringing you another one of our Drilling Deep 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: series in which Adam Lowenstein talks to an author about 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: a recent book that touches on climate, or politics, or democracy, 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: or some combination thereof. Today Adam speaks with when Stephenson, 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: the journalist, an activist, and author of the new book 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: Learning to Live in the Dark, essays in a Time 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: of Catastrophe. In it, Stevenson argues that the only way 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: to confront the crises of our time is to meet 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: despair head on, to see it for what it is, 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: to feel it, and to accept what it means about 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: where we are and where we need to go. Over 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: the summer, Adam spoke with Stevenson about how he processes 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: his own climate despair, what scholars of totalitarianism like Hannah 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Arentt and Albert Camu can teach us about fossil fascism, 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: and whether a mass movement for climate action might not 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: come together until enough people are desperate enough. This conversation 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: is a lot like how Stevenson describes his book. It's 19 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: about how to live into this era of climate and 20 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: political and social catastrophe. While holding on to our humanity. 21 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: Just a note before we get into it that this 22 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: conversation does briefly discuss suicide. If you are in crisis, 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: please call or text or chat with the Suicide and 24 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: Crisis Lifeline at nine to eighty eight, or contact the 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: crisis text line by texting talk tl K to seven 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: four to one, seven four one. Here's Adam and. 27 00:01:51,480 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: When m. 28 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 3: As a starting point, I wanted to ask you how 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 3: you're feeling about having this book out in the world, 30 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 3: because there's a lot of a lot of you and 31 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 3: a lot of processing in the book that is now 32 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 3: available for everyone to see and feel and read. 33 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, uh, it feels it's strange. I mean, 34 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I've written personal essays for a long time. Uh. 35 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: And you know it's worth it's worth noting off the top, 36 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: right that like, the vast majority of this book is 37 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: not about me. Uh, there's a there's some very personal 38 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: stuff in it, of course, but but and and that 39 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: runs kind of as a thread through the through the essays, 40 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: you know, all the way to the end. But but 41 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: the vast, vast majority of the book is not about me. 42 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 2: But you know, it's a it's a risk, right, it's 43 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: a risk one takes as a writer if you're going 44 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: to get personal, and it's even a risk of another 45 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: of a special kind as a you know, and I understand, 46 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: I understand why the reasons why, just as a you know, 47 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: a white straight cismle you know, writing on the you know, 48 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: within the left, you know, to kind of be personal 49 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: because it's like, well, why should my story matter that much? 50 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: You know? And I try to acknowledge that obviously off 51 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: the top, like what are my struggles compared to you know, 52 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: you know, the vast majority of people on the planet, 53 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: you know, right, you know, and even in my own 54 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: community for that matter. 55 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wrestle with that idea of it almost feels 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: indulgent sometimes. I don't think it does to most people. 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: On the other side, your book did not feel indulgent 58 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: or self indulgent to me, But it can feel that 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: way from the writer's perspective. 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: Right exactly. And so and that's why we have editors, 61 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: and that's why we you know, that's why you know, 62 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: this was not a blog, right, I mean, I'm not 63 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: just spewing this out there. This is very carefully considered, 64 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: you know, writing. But I do think it's important to 65 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: bring the personal. It can be important, you know, to 66 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: bring the personal into books like this. I mean, maybe 67 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: it's worth saying just like what kind of a book 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: this is and what kind it's not, and like why 69 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: I wrote it. I mean, it's definitely a climate book, right, 70 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: but I mean that is the overarching and the and 71 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: the and the unifying kind of you know, thread or 72 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: theme you know of the book. And I'm a climate 73 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: writer and a climate activist and so on. But it's 74 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: it's really not a typical climate book, at least I 75 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: think the way that usually is that, you know, is 76 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: the term is used in the publishing world, you know, 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: because it's not a policy book, and it's not a 78 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: solutions book, you. 79 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 4: Know, which I found very refreshing. Okay, I'll probably get 80 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 4: into that a little bit later. 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah we should. We should. There's lots to 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: be said about that. But it is, as you've noted, 83 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: it's a very personal book and you know, and it's 84 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: and it's a very literary book, right, I mean, it's 85 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: it's it's about much of it. Most of it. These 86 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: essays are about writers and thinkers, you know, and and yeah, 87 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: there's a certain amount of political analysis, and you know, 88 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: even polemic in the book. For sure, that's certainly part 89 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: of it and part of who I am as a writer, 90 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: and you know, but but more than that, I think 91 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: it's what it is essentially, is a kind of moral 92 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: ethical inquiry into as kind of the title implies, like 93 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: how to live into this era of climate and political 94 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: and social catastrophe that's upon us while holding on to 95 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: our humanity. I mean that that phrase, you know, can 96 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 2: become a cliche, of course, but I hope that in 97 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 2: my book it's not, because I try to go very 98 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 2: deeply into what that means under various you know, various scenarios, 99 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: and what it has meant in the past, and what 100 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: there is to learn, you know, from writers and thinkers 101 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: of the past, so on that kind of personal level. 102 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: You know, when I was in my really darkest moments 103 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: in sort of twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, like a lot 104 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: of other people, you know, and then again at various 105 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: times over these last eight years, as I was writing 106 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: this series of essays, I went looking I kind of 107 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: instinctively reached for a certain group of writers and thinkers 108 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: of the mid twentieth century, you know, these kind of iconic, 109 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: and I it certainly wasn't the only person doing this 110 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, you know, but these like 111 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: iconic anti fascist and anti totalitarian thinkers and writers like 112 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: Hannah Arendt and Albert Camu and Simon Vais and others, 113 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: you know. And I even ended up, you know, looking 114 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: very closely at the great anti colonial revolutionary fronts, finol. 115 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: You know, that's where the book ends up. And I 116 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: was looking for a sort of like the intellectual and 117 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: moral and even spiritual sources of or resources sort of 118 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: like for not as I say, you know, not hope, 119 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: because I feel that term and that concept is kind 120 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: of abstract and is means many different things to different people. 121 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: But more like we'll get into that a bit, like yeah, weinge. 122 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: Into that too, more like, as I say, resolve. What 123 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: I needed was resolve to just stay in the fight. 124 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: And so you know, I went looking for a reason 125 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: to live and to keep fighting. And what I found 126 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 2: in these writers and others, you know, including contemporaries of ours, 127 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: is really universal human solidarity. I mean, that's that's what 128 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: I found and or had reaffirmed for me, you know. 129 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: And I mean like across all our divisions of race 130 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: and gender and class and ideology and religion, you know, 131 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: just probably the most important quote in the book, or 132 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: one of them. There are a lot of quotes in 133 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: this book, maybe the most important, the one that means 134 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: the most to me. I use as one of the 135 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: epigraphs for the book. It's from Camu's novel The Plague, which, 136 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 2: if you or anyone else listening to this has not 137 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 2: read Camu's The Plague, I highly recommend it. But it's 138 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: where the main character, Doctor Rue is talking to priest 139 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: Father Parlous. The doctor says to the priest at a 140 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: very intense moment in their fight against the plague, we're 141 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: fighting for something that brings us together, beyond blasphemys and prayers. 142 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: It's all that matters when I look at across our movements, 143 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: you know, on the left, and I think about my 144 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: comrades and just and I think about members of my 145 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: own family who are deeply conservative. For that matter, I'm 146 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: looking for, you know, what it is that could actually 147 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 2: hold us together in the face of just now unimaginable 148 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: you know, suffering and oppression and pain, you know, and darkness. 149 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 3: That gets at something that we've sometimes explicitly throughout the book, 150 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 3: which is this idea of despair? Yeah, and I think 151 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: to say that the book is just you processing a 152 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: sense of despair, it is that, but it's a lot 153 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 3: more than that. And you go two great lengths to 154 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: differentiate despair from nihilism or on the other end of 155 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: the feel good spectrum, optimism and hope. As we talked 156 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: about briefly before, can you talk about what despair how 157 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 3: you think about despair in the context of the climate crisis. 158 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're right, I mean this is central. I mean, 159 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: this is the title of the book, right, how to learn, 160 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: you know, learning to Live in the Dark, which was 161 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: the title. It's sort of the title essay of the book. 162 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: My essay on Hannah Arendt in the Time of Trump 163 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: and Climate was the first essay I really wrote in 164 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 2: this series back in twenty seventeen. I was looking for 165 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: someone who could help me, you know, confront really look 166 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: into the abyss, right, and there are few who did 167 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: that kind of more productively than Hannah Arendt. Okay, Yeah, 168 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 2: I guess the first thing that's important to say is 169 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: that given what we're up against, right, that despair is warranted. 170 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: That's really central for me, and that it's not you know, 171 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: I say this kind of flippantly, but not really because 172 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: I say, you know, it's not a sin, right, I mean, 173 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: you know for Catholics it's like one, I'm not Catholic, 174 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: but I was raised in a conservative Christian family. But 175 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: you know, despair is not a sin, okay, as some 176 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: would say. It's not like moral weakness or a flaw 177 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 2: in your character. It's entirely understandable. In fact, it's rational 178 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: on some level. But but given those caveats, right, it 179 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: is dangerous. It can lead to some very dark places 180 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: almost by definition, right, it is those dark places, and 181 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 2: and so it's dangerous, and it's defeating, you know, especially politically, 182 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: like for anyone engaged in social and political movements, it's defeating. 183 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: So it's something that needs to be worked through, preferably 184 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: with others, like preferably in community, right if possible, or 185 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: you know, like myself, with a therapist. You knows, as 186 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: I did and still do. You know, but I think 187 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 2: I can honestly say that I've I've learned to live 188 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: with despair or you know, even the kind that has 189 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: led me at times to question my own desire to live, 190 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: you know, like I've never really been truly like in 191 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: a suicidal place, Like I've never attempted to end my life, 192 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: but i've but I've been close to that, I think, 193 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: And and it's worth also saying that, you know, anyone 194 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: listening to this, if that's where you are or you 195 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: know have been there or are there now, please please 196 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: like talk to talk to someone, Talk to your friends, 197 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: talk to your closest friends or loved ones, someone you trust, 198 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: you know, if you need to talk to a therapist, 199 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 2: please reach out. The National Suicide Prevention Hotline is nine 200 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: to eight eight. Yeah, I mean, I take this. I 201 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: take this very seriously. I don't I don't lightly write 202 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: about this, you know, it's a I take it seriously 203 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: as a response, you know, my responsibility as a writer 204 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: broaching this topic in public. But really, uh, you know, 205 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: we don't want to lose you. You know, we don't 206 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 2: want to lose anyone. We can't afford to lose you. 207 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: You know, you're needed and you're loved, and there is 208 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: help if you reach out for it. So I just 209 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: want to say that. But there's more, so much more 210 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: to be said on this. But I guess the most 211 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: important thing also is that about you know, the way 212 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: I come at it in this book is I found 213 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: that what's required for me to live with my despair, Like, 214 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 2: I don't believe this despair is like an end point. 215 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: There was a beautiful essay by Hanef Abdekery in The 216 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: New Yorker recently about despair. I think it was called 217 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: in Defense of Despair. 218 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 4: I think I saw that beautiful essay. 219 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: I highly recommend it, and and it wasn't really at 220 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 2: all about climate change or anything. But one of the 221 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: main points he was making is that it doesn't have 222 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: to be an end point. You know, something that it's 223 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: not giving up, right, it's not giving up. It's something 224 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: that you can work through and learn to live with. 225 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: Because I can say, even though I've learned to live 226 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: with it, it's still there, right, It's still in me. 227 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: So what I found I needed was not just some 228 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: kind of quote unquote hope you know which I mean, 229 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: what does that word even mean anymore in the context 230 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: of climate like we really have to I mean, now, 231 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: I know a lot of people do use that term 232 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: and have written about it beautifully, and so I think 233 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: there are good answers to that. But but I just 234 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: needed something sturdier, like I needed, like I said, resolve, 235 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 2: Like for me, hope is abstract, it's you know, resolve 236 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: is visceral. It's like in your body, it's what you Yeah. 237 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: So I had to actually kind of let go of hope, 238 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: you know, any kind of abstract, cost free hope, you know, 239 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: in order to find my resolve. 240 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 3: When it comes to thinking about despair. I think I've 241 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 3: found that the honesty around it to be pretty refreshing 242 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: and feels like if we are to confront this, this 243 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: crisis of our making pretending it's not so bad, it's 244 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 3: probably not a good place to start. 245 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I know that that's very well said, and 246 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: I think that that's really partly what's been driving me 247 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: for several years and writing about this. You know, I 248 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: want to give a shout out because I think there 249 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 2: are other writers that, certainly in the climate space, who 250 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: have have done this. I'm certainly not the only one, 251 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: and shout out to Mary Heglar, who I know as 252 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: a friend of drill and is someone who I think 253 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: has has done a wonderful job over the years of 254 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: being of that emotional honesty you know, that kind of 255 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: not just intellectual honesty, but emotional honesty about about dealing 256 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: with this, uh, with this stuff. And you know, I 257 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: think if if there's something I can say that is, 258 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: you know, for lack of a better word, hopeful. 259 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 4: I am pro hope. 260 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 261 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: I actually think I think choosing hope is the only 262 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: way forward. 263 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 264 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it can coexist with despair in 265 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: a way that you you managed to thread that needle 266 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: in this book. 267 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and and to not And just to be clear, 268 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: like I know plenty of people who have who have 269 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: found their way to a more complex and deeper meaning 270 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: of hope than the kind of simplistic, you know version, 271 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: that shallow version that it gets thrown around so often. 272 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 2: But and I deeply respect that. And well, you know 273 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: what those folks and I are probably talking about the 274 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: same exact thing. You know, I've just found some other 275 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 2: words for it. But if I could say something, you know, yeah, 276 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: like positive, it's that I think what I have found 277 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: is that for me, the resolve is found in relationship 278 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: to other people. It's found in other people, It's found 279 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: in each other. Right, Like the title of my first 280 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: book was what We're fighting For? Now is each other right, 281 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 2: And so for me, the source of my resolve is 282 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: that human solidarity. It's it's you. You know, it's you, Adam, 283 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: It's you and all the folks that drilled and everybody 284 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 2: listening to this podcast. You know, it's like, y'all are 285 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: the source of my resolve at the end of the day. 286 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 2: And I think that what I you know, I've found 287 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: over the course of a decade and a half working 288 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: in social movements, you know, mainly the climate justice movement, 289 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: is that's what it is for most people. That's what 290 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 2: keeps us going is each other and that sense of solidarity. 291 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: That might sound somewhat pat or something, but sometimes the 292 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: simple things, simple statements are true. 293 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: I don't think it does sound pat, although I like you, 294 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: I understand how people could take it that way. In 295 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 3: part for something that you for a reason you mentioned 296 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 3: in the book, or at least that you touch on 297 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 3: in the book, is words like solidarity are too often 298 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: thrown around. But the idea of solidarity, and I think 299 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 3: you discussed it in the context of global solidarity. We 300 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 3: like to talk about it, but it's the phrase in 301 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: some ways has become almost meaningless. 302 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it is meaningless without the kind of action 303 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: that's really required in order to body it and to 304 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 2: you know, make it real. And I would also another 305 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 2: shout out, I mean I would I'd really send people 306 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: to the writing of Astra Taylor and Leah Hunt Hendrix 307 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: and or you know, they add on solidarity that is 308 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 2: really a beautiful exploration of what it means and should 309 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: mean and can mean for us right now. 310 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 3: What you mentioned there about the kind of authentic, real solidarity, 311 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: the human connection, the person to person engagement, the thing 312 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: that keeps you going, the thing that will probably keep 313 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 3: the climate movement going, the thing that will keep humanity 314 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: going as it has thus far, is you know, being 315 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: with other people. That is that's definitely a theme in 316 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 3: the book. And you talk, you know, whether it's Camu 317 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: or Hannah or Rent or some of the others, there 318 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 3: is this idea that they come back to a lot 319 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 3: that you surface in your own book, which is, you know, 320 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 3: a real human being in front of you versus an 321 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 3: abstraction of the concept of humanity. You know, describing people, 322 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: let's say, as superfluous is sort of a key tenet 323 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 3: of a totalitarian state, totalitarian way of seeing the world. 324 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 3: Can you talk about that a little bit, you know, 325 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: to talitarianism as a way of understanding the climate crisis. 326 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: And I feel like we don't we hear a lot 327 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 3: about Hannah Rent and other philosophers these days for good reason, Yeah, 328 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 3: but we don't hear it in the context of climate 329 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: as much necessarily. 330 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is a really central question. And 331 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: what kind of dawned on me is I was reading 332 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: The Origins of Totalitarianism. You know, it's great work that 333 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 2: she first published in the early fifties and then updated 334 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: in the later sixties. What is it that enables a system, 335 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: a political system to develop that essentially dehumanizes everyone who 336 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 2: is under its domination? And there, of course are historical. 337 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 2: I mean, we can go back well before the mid 338 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 2: twentieth century and look at the system of chattel slavery 339 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: or the global slave trade, or definitely colonialism, and which 340 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: closely related of course, And as I think it was 341 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: a mess Are who made the seminole argument that in 342 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: some ways totalitarianism and fascism and in Europe in the 343 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: twentieth century was sort of was colonialism coming home to 344 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 2: roost in Europe. But what struck me about that in 345 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 2: relation to the climate crisis. I was trying to somehow 346 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 2: come to grips with what kind of mindset enables someone 347 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: in a political system to pursue relentless expansion of fossil 348 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 2: fuels in the face of the science that we have. 349 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: And as we all know, the leaders of the fossil 350 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: fuel industry and the lobby and the politicians who are 351 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 2: all part of that, they know full well what they're doing. 352 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: They know full well what the climate science says, and. 353 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 4: Some of them knew before we did it. 354 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: Exactly Exxon has known for many decades. And what kind 355 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: of a mindset allows you to just keep the pedal 356 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: to the metal and accelerate into the abit off off 357 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: of the cliff. 358 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 4: Yeah they're not all sociopaths. There's a lot of them. Yeah, Yeah, 359 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 4: they're not all right. 360 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: And the answer is maybe just as simple as that. 361 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: It doesn't require theorizing, you know, the relationship between that 362 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: and totalitarianism. Okay, in some ways I am overthinking it, right, 363 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: but it helped me. It helped me because you know, 364 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: aren't you know? Analysis of the totalitarian mindset really helped me. 365 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: And it had to do with the kind of that 366 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: this belief in the limitless nature of power, okay, and 367 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: a kind of pursuit of power and domination that requires yes, 368 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 2: turning you know, entire populations of humanity and and you know, 369 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 2: really everyone under its sway, treating them as superfluous meaning 370 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: you know, not at all useful or relevant to the 371 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: ultimate end, which is, you know, complete domination. And if 372 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: you think about it, that is precisely what the fossil 373 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: capital regime really is pursuing. It is a form of 374 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: global domination, you know, it is it is subjecting the 375 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,959 Speaker 2: entire human population to these catastrophic consequences and to the power, 376 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: the sheer economic and political power of this industry and 377 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: its political regime. Right. You know, I could probably do 378 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: a better job of articulating all. Read the book. Read 379 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: that chapter. It's the first chapter of. 380 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 3: The book, though it does pop up throughout the rest 381 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 3: of the book. 382 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: The y Yeah, yeah, I come back to it, of 383 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 2: course at the end. And maybe I don't know if 384 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: you were planning to ask me about this, but yeah, 385 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 2: let's go there. Yeah. The last chapter, which is a 386 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: new essay and it's the one long essay of the 387 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 2: book that's original to the book, is about fanol Franz Fanol, 388 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 2: who folks aren't familiar, is the author of the great 389 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 2: anti colonial revolutionary manifesto, The Wretched of the Earth right, 390 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: which came out in nineteen sixty one or two, and 391 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: he was deeply involved. He was a martiniquean French black 392 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: writer and psychiatrist who was educated in France and ended 393 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: up getting deeply involved in the Algerian War of Independence, 394 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: the Algerian revolution that threw off French French colonial rule. 395 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: I write about Phenoe in the context of Gaza and 396 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 2: the genocide that we're now seeing there. I was looking 397 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 2: to that because again I have this sense that the 398 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: climate struggle, climate justice struggle will never really be as 399 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 2: radical as it needs to be, as fearless and as 400 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 2: serious as it needs to be, until enough enough people 401 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: are desperate enough to really lay everything on the line. 402 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 3: Which is where spoiler alert, but this is not a 403 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 3: book that will be minimized by hearing. That is the 404 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: essentially where you conclude the book. 405 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly. I'm reading Phanoe in the context of 406 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: both the Gaza genocide and the global climate catastrophe, which 407 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 2: is also, as I argue, a kind of genocide at 408 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: least for large portions of the global population. And so 409 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: so I write there at the very end of that chapter. 410 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: You know, as in the history of anti colonial liberation struggles, 411 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: the climate justice struggle, the fight for a habitable planet 412 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: and a livable human future in which justice is still possible, 413 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: will not be radical enough or fearless enough until enough 414 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: of us are desperate enough to risk everything. And then 415 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: the question, maybe the only question left at this hour, 416 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 2: is whether we will hold on to our humanity in 417 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 2: our desperation. I look at phenomen because he he is 418 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: in so many ways and has been ever all through 419 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 2: the you know, beginning in the in the that great 420 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: period of anti colonial independence movements in the sixties. Once 421 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: The Wretched of the Earth was published, he became this 422 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: icon of the anti colonial struggles, right and and this 423 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: voice and this you know, great prophet of and that 424 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 2: book famously opens up with this discussion of violence, of 425 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: anti colonial violence in particular, and he's been held up 426 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: as this kind of apostle of unlimited violence against against 427 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 2: the colonizer. And you know, as I've as I started 428 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: reading about phenol and then really closely reading the book, 429 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: it occurred to me that he and others have seen 430 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: this as well, not just is that he's actually not that, 431 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 2: you know, he always he always affirmed the right to 432 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: armed struggle, you know, armed anti anti colonial revolutionary struggle. 433 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: But he was not a proponent of of just unlimited 434 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 2: violence and especially against civilians. He was part of the 435 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 2: f l End of you know, the Front the Liberal 436 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: the Algerian revolutionary movement UH and and its tactics of 437 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: you know, indiscriminate violence against French settlers and you know, 438 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: civilians and against the French army armed forces was really 439 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: influential and including influential to the Palestinian liberation struggle. But 440 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: one of the things that Phenol goes right on to 441 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: say after that famous or infamous opening chapter is that 442 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: is that an unlimited violence, and you know, UH, an 443 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: indiscriminate violence can actually destroy a movement and can actually 444 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: just from a purely strategic standpoint, can be counterproductive. And 445 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: then he goes on by the end of the book 446 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: as a psychiatrist who treated patients you know, in Algeria 447 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: both and and in Tunisia where he he and other 448 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: f l IN leaders fled after the first couple of 449 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: years of the of the war. He did all sorts 450 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 2: of patients he treated, you know, Algerian independence fighters and 451 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: French civilians and French military and police who had been 452 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: involved in torture and in all kinds of atrocities against 453 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: the Algerian population and so on. And that final chapter 454 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: of The Wretched of the Earth is incredibly powerful and 455 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: eye opening in just the way PhNO somewhat subtly because 456 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 2: he wasn't going to just he wasn't going to just 457 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: you know, denounce the FLN's tactics. Don't and I don't 458 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: think that he ever would have, honestly, but he was 459 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: complicating the whole thing. He was showing the costs, the 460 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: very real, undeniable human costs of that kind of a war. 461 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: And what's very clear is that he's focusing on the 462 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: individual person, you know, the costs at that individual, individual, 463 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: personal level. And when you look at some of Phenon's 464 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: other writings, famously Black Skin, White Masks, which was his 465 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: first major book, which is still today valued for its 466 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: insights into race and colonialism, he did adhere to a 467 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: kind of universal humanism. That's what he wanted, you know. 468 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 2: I mean, even someone like Edward said, who you know, 469 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: you know, you won't find a better anti colonial theorist 470 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: than Edward said, you know, pointed out about Phenol that 471 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: he wanted a kind of humanism in which the colonized 472 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: and the colonizer, or the European and the Algerian or whoever, 473 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: were able to come together. That's pretty idealistic, right, I mean, 474 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: but it was worth it was really worth delving into. 475 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: And so there has been talk about a climate movement 476 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: that adopts a more Funonian approach, right as opposed to 477 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: a Gandhian approach. Famously in Andrea's Mom and his big blockbuster, 478 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: if there was ever an unlikely bestseller, it was his 479 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 2: book How to Blow Up a Pipeline. 480 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, which you do discuss in an earlier chapter in 481 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 4: this book. 482 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 2: I discussed in the book a little bit, and I 483 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 2: interviewed Mom back in I think I was the first 484 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: American journalist to interview Mom about that book, right before 485 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 2: it came out back in December twenty twenty. He has 486 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: this much quoted line about, you know, we've had a 487 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 2: Gandhian climate movement. Maybe there will come a time, you know, 488 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: when we'll need a Fennonian, got it, you know, climate movement? 489 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: And I ask what that would really mean, and I think, like, 490 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: oddly enough, it doesn't necessarily mean a violent climate movement. 491 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: I mean, it probably mean means, And I personally have 492 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 2: come around to the conclusion that, yes, I accept the 493 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 2: idea that some sort of violence, some sort of even 494 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: armed struggle, might one day be justifiable, you know, it 495 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: might even now be justifiable in the in the case 496 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: of you know, climate catastrophe and climate injustice in some 497 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: ways because it is a form of colonialism, it is 498 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 2: a form of totalitarian you know, domination. 499 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 3: And to say that climate change itself is not a 500 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 3: violent undertaking, right, right, right to miss the obvious right. 501 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: But taking my cue there from Fanlane, and what I 502 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: learned about Phenol is that, like fhanone, you know, will 503 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 2: we be able to still hold on to our sense 504 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: of humanity, our sense of universal humanity and humanism in 505 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: that process? 506 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: Right? 507 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: But it does matter how we fight. It matters not 508 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: just strategically, but its on some deeper level. 509 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, toward the. 510 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 3: End of the book, I'm going to quote you here 511 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 3: you say that anyone involved in left politics should be 512 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 3: asking themselves now just how far I'd be willing to 513 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: go as an activist in the struggle against the fossil 514 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: fuel industry and its political backers. And I'm wondering where 515 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 3: you can take this in whichever direction you'd like, but 516 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 3: where either where you come down on that personally, or 517 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 3: how you would encourage folks on the left to to 518 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 3: think about that question. 519 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, first off, I would say that it's 520 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: going to be it's something that each person has to 521 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 2: answer for themselves, right. It's obviously it's not something that 522 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: I or anyone else has any right to prescribe for 523 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: anybody else, right. And that's one reason that these questions 524 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 2: and this topic is always personal. But I think the 525 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: reason we need to be asking ourselves that question is 526 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: that I feel strongly that we're going to need, and 527 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: we need right now and have needed for a while, 528 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 2: a kind of movement that is willing to take big risks, 529 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,720 Speaker 2: and that requires individuals who are willing to take big risks. 530 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't mean, by any means that everybody 531 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 2: in the movement, any everybody needs to be willing to 532 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: take large, you know, huge personal risks that are like 533 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 2: our legal or physical risks, you know, not saying that 534 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: at all, but there is something to be said about 535 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: a kind of risk, aversion that has existed, you know, 536 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 2: in our politics and in our and in the certainly 537 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: the mainstream climate movement for a long time. You might 538 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: just say it's an aversion to political risk or whatever 539 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: and risks. Now, let's let's be clear, like the risk 540 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 2: level has gone way up since the inaugurate second and 541 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 2: auguration of Donald Trump and so, and these are real 542 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: and these are not evenly distributed, right, risk is not 543 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 2: evenly distributed by any sense of the imagination, right any stretch. 544 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: Someone like me, a white guy like me, you know, 545 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: my level of risk is considerably lower than a lot 546 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: of other people who I've worked with over the years, 547 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: and you know, done actions with and worked side by 548 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 2: side within the climate movement, and certainly right now when 549 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 2: you look at the kind of action that's being taken 550 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 2: to protect communities in la for example, from mass deportations 551 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: from ice and we're talking about people taking real risks. 552 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 2: But the point is, the point is when people are desperate, 553 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 2: when people are oppressed, when people are we can look 554 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: to the history of of of movements by oppressed peoples 555 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 2: for inspiration and for examples of of movements that have 556 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 2: been willing to take enormous risks, right, and I think 557 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 2: that it's important to recognize that we're in that we're 558 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 2: in that position now. You know, again the risk isn't 559 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 2: evenly distributed, but even even someone like me or you 560 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: is facing a level of threat and let's say it oppression. Uh, 561 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 2: that's that's, you know, something we've never never faced before, 562 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: you know, whether it's just climate change, or whether it's 563 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: the political situation, whether it's fascism. That said, I'm I'm 564 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: in I'm in favor of a kind of movement that 565 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 2: is willing to break things, that is willing to you know, 566 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 2: within within reason and without trying to harm other people. 567 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: You know, is is willing to to go out and 568 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: create a crisis, create in some ways create chaos, uh, 569 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: for the fossil fuel industry, and force a kind of 570 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 2: crisis on them that they've never had to really face before. 571 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: And Indale's all sorts of risks, you know. I talked 572 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: about this with Andrea's mom. You know, it's like, of course, 573 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: everything from political blowback to security state repression, you know, 574 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 2: are our increasing fascist police state that we're facing. But 575 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 2: we got to ask ourselves, at what, at what point 576 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 2: you know, does this become unavoidable? Right, what point does 577 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: it become unavoidable? You know, I've worked in spaces and 578 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 2: and I've worked on direct action campaigns where these kind 579 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 2: of risks were taken very seriously. I haven't I haven't 580 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 2: ever sabotaged anything. But but okay, something else to say 581 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: on that is that I think it's really important I 582 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 2: say this in that in that same chapter you were 583 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: just quoting from really important to acknowledge that going out 584 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 2: and committing some kind of quote unquote revolutionary act, right, 585 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: like blowing up a pipeline or whatever, that in itself 586 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 2: does not make a revolutionary movement or a revolutionary politics. 587 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: So so called revolutionary tactics do not make a revolutionary 588 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: politics all by themselves. Only movements can do that, right. So, 589 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 2: for me personally, in order for that kind of radical 590 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 2: action to really make sense, it would have to be 591 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 2: first of all, very carefully considered as strategic. It would 592 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 2: have to be sustained, you know, not just one offs, right, 593 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: and it would need to have the support the backing 594 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 2: of Now, obviously that backing may not be public, it 595 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 2: may not be explicit over you know, but it would 596 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: have the backing of a movement, right of a of 597 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: a large movement, and those conditions do not currently exist. 598 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: So I don't think it would necessarily make any sense 599 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 2: to go out and sabotage a pipeline or whatever at 600 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: this moment, because I don't think those It might be 601 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,919 Speaker 2: just a waste of effort and a waste of a life, 602 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 2: you know, being sent to prison. But then again, if we're, 603 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 2: if we're collectively working toward that kind of you know, explicitly, 604 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 2: that kind of of a strategy, that kind of a goal, 605 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 2: I think those conditions certainly could exist, and maybe sooner 606 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 2: rather than later. You know, I think there are a 607 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 2: lot of people in this country and internationally who are 608 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: getting who are getting to this point. I think those 609 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 2: copies are really important. 610 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 3: The fact that that movement does not exist right now 611 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 3: gets at something that you talk about in the book, 612 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 3: which is and I'm curious if I'm fraving this in 613 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 3: the way that you'd say is accurate the climate movement 614 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 3: more broadly, which has never been one monolithic entity. Yes, 615 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 3: but it does come in for some criticism I think 616 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 3: deservedly so in the book, as I think you're arguing 617 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 3: not appreciating the extent to which more radical and revolutionary 618 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 3: thinking is probably required if we're to make any sort 619 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 3: of substantive political change. Is that a fair way to 620 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 3: summarize it. 621 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, it's not to say that that there isn't 622 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 2: a role for the mainstream. That's not to say that 623 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: at all. I'd be crazy if I thought that the 624 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 2: entire movement was gonna was going to become as radical 625 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 2: as I'm talking about. But it's something well known in 626 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: social movement theorizing and study history, which is the radical flank. Now, 627 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 2: the climate movement has had a radical flank for a 628 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 2: long time, ever since, certainly even you know, certainly even 629 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 2: before I got into it back in like twenty eleven 630 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 2: or so, and I reported on on and wrote about 631 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 2: a lot of the some of the people who were 632 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 2: very much part of that radical flank back in the 633 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 2: earlier years of the movement, sort of around the Keystone 634 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 2: fight and so on. There's the radical flank effect, you know, 635 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 2: has been seen many times in history, and it opens 636 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 2: up space, you know, political space for the main The 637 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: more you know, mainstream part of the movement, the sort 638 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,800 Speaker 2: of political inside game to work, it can and it 639 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 2: can also kind of shake things up and break up, 640 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 2: break up a situation that's become kind of ossified, right, 641 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 2: so it can create new dynamics that you know didn't 642 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 2: exist before. This might be a good place in the 643 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 2: conversation for me to I first wrote it back in 644 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, kind of the peak of or almost the 645 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 2: peak of Green New Deal advocacy and the building of 646 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 2: the Green New Deal Coalition, which, by the way, as 647 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 2: critical as I may be at times, you know, that 648 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 2: was the most hopeful thing that I had ever seen. 649 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 2: And I still think, you know, we need to be 650 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: looking back to that period of like twenty eighteen to 651 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,240 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, when the Green New Deal Coalition was coming together. 652 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 3: We probably don't have time to get into this, but 653 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 3: I would say it's not conspiratorial to say that the 654 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 3: explosion of quote unquote moderate center and corporate climate commitments 655 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, twenty twenty was certainly not 656 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 3: unrelated to the immense popularity of the Green New Deal, Yes, 657 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 3: which was far more threatening to them than posting a 658 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 3: green pdf on their website. 659 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 2: Yes. And I'll go further, and I'll say, look, we 660 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 2: had the Green New Deal concept and policies even were 661 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 2: central to Bernie Sanders' twenty twenty campaign definitely moved Biden 662 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 2: well to the left on climate. Build Back Better wouldn't 663 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 2: have existed without the Sanders campaign and the Green New 664 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 2: Deal being at the center of that, right, That's why 665 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 2: we had people like Varshny Prakasha, the Sunrise Movement and 666 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 2: sitting you know, being as part of the Sanders team 667 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 2: that sat down with the Biden team and hashed out 668 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 2: what became Build Back Better. Right now, of course that 669 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,799 Speaker 2: was all eviscerated and became the Inflation Reduction Act, which, 670 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 2: as useful as it has been for spurring you know, 671 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 2: clean energy development in this country, obviously was not anything 672 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 2: like a Green New Deal, even though of course it's 673 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 2: labeled that by everyone on the right, you know, but 674 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 2: that's a whole other. 675 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 4: Topic, right right, Yeah, I've distracted us there and the fact. 676 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 2: That it's now being completely dismantled, and yeah, but I 677 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 2: think this would be a good place for me to 678 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 2: inject this idea, which is when we talk about the 679 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 2: climate movement, the climate justice move movement, or what we 680 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 2: often call nowadays the climate left. You know, it's a 681 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 2: term that's a term that I think also was kind 682 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 2: of born out of the Green New Deal coalition, you know, 683 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 2: which was bringing labor in and was bringing a lot 684 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 2: of people who hadn't traditionally been part of the climate 685 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 2: movement into the conversation into the organizing. Right. So when 686 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,880 Speaker 2: we think about the climate justice movement or the climate 687 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 2: left and its relationship to the broader left, okay, I 688 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,879 Speaker 2: think is crucial. I've felt for quite a while now 689 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 2: that the time for a mere climate movement or even 690 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 2: climate justice movement has passed. That I think it had 691 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 2: passed even by twenty nineteen, okay. And what I mean 692 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 2: by that is it's clear that a climate movement, or 693 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 2: even what we call nowadays the climate left, is never 694 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,000 Speaker 2: going to build enough just sheer political power on its 695 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 2: own to literally overthrow the fossil capital regime. Right. And 696 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 2: I think of something that Olaf M. E. Taiwa wrote 697 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 2: last year in a really good piece in Boston Review. 698 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 2: He made it so explicit where he said something like, 699 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,879 Speaker 2: you know, the strategic imperative is that the strategy has 700 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 2: to be the complete defeat, the utter defeat of the 701 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 2: combined interests of oil, gas and coal producers, right in 702 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 2: order for any of our climate justice goals to be 703 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 2: even a remote possibility. I think it's pretty clear that 704 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,800 Speaker 2: no individual, kind of siloed social movement on the left 705 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 2: is going to build the kind of power required to 706 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 2: do that. So what we need, and I think what 707 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,240 Speaker 2: we've always needed, is not so much a climate movement 708 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 2: or a climate left as an actual left, you know, 709 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 2: like a resurgent revolutionary left, you know, and revolutionary can 710 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 2: mean all sorts of things, right, But I'm mainly talking 711 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 2: here about political revolution, you know, maybe something a little 712 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 2: more sweeping and transformational than you know Bernie was talking 713 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 2: about in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty where he popularized 714 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 2: the phrase political revolution. Right. But what we're talking about 715 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,760 Speaker 2: is a left, a movement of movements, a popular front, 716 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 2: if you want to call it that that has both 717 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 2: climate survival okay, so meaning deep decarbonization and economic and 718 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 2: social justice right at its core. Right, And that was 719 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 2: the idea of the Greed and is the idea of 720 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 2: the Green New Deal coalition, right, But it needs to 721 00:46:52,719 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 2: be expressly revolutionary or transformative in its goals. It's political goals, 722 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,320 Speaker 2: and that isn't going to happen with any one individual 723 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,839 Speaker 2: movement on the left, it will take the entire life 724 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 2: and then some coalition building will will mean including the 725 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 2: center left in that. That's not something that's really on 726 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 2: the table right now, which could be, which is another 727 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 2: reason for you know, despair, right, because we need that, 728 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 2: We needed this yesterday, we needed this ten years ago. 729 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 2: But you know, I think that there's a lot of 730 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 2: self blame, self recrimination in a way in the climate movement, 731 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 2: a lot of you know, this feeling that we have failed. 732 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,400 Speaker 2: But I'm not really sure why we've put that entire 733 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 2: like world saving burden on ourselves as climate activists. You know, 734 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 2: it's not like climate activists can do this on our own, right, 735 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 2: you know, it's not just a climate. 736 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 3: To overthrow the most powerful industry in the history of humanity. 737 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 2: Right, It's not like the climate movement it so alone 738 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 2: has failed. It's like the entire progressive left has failed. Okay, 739 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 2: Like the left should have prioritized climate and climate justice 740 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 2: decades ago. Right. There are all sorts of reasons why 741 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 2: it didn't, and some of that is the blame of 742 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,800 Speaker 2: climate activists and the environmental movement for sure, Right, But 743 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 2: at some point you got to ask yourself, like Why 744 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,760 Speaker 2: wasn't there something like a Green New Deal coalition bringing 745 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 2: labor and racial and social justice into the you know, 746 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 2: one big movement. Why wasn't there that twenty years ago? 747 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 2: Because it was clear years ago what we were facing. 748 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,280 Speaker 3: I found it righteous and clarifying the way you phrase 749 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 3: it in that twenty nineteen essay about the Green New Deal. 750 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,840 Speaker 3: I think everyone from essentially the center right on leftward 751 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 3: at this point would not consider themselves ourselves as climate deniers. 752 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,719 Speaker 3: But you describe in that essay any as you put it, 753 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 3: any thing less than revolutionary political change is essentially a 754 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,840 Speaker 3: new type of climate denial. Maybe this gets back to 755 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 3: what we were talking about a little bit before, where 756 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 3: despair is a reflection of being honest. It seems like, 757 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 3: again not just the climate movement, but the center and 758 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 3: the left more broadly, we have engaged in what, in 759 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 3: hindsight seems like at least a decade of this new 760 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 3: climate denial, of thinking, reassuring ourselves that piecemeal, incremental, market driven, 761 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 3: technocratic tweaks to the way things are can solve this problem. 762 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 3: Whatever solve means, whatever solve. But yeah, can you talk 763 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 3: about what that? I guess why you think of this 764 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 3: as a new form of climate denial. 765 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't mean to say that it's obviously, 766 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 2: as you were getting out there, it's not denial of 767 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:51,840 Speaker 2: climate science, although it's denial of what climate science tells 768 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 2: us is really necessary at the political and economic level, right, 769 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,799 Speaker 2: I mean, climate sciences has been quite clear. I mean, 770 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,320 Speaker 2: the IPCC itself came right out and said in twenty 771 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 2: eighteen that you know, to you know, in its famous 772 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,320 Speaker 2: report on one point five degrees C and the difference 773 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 2: between that and two C and what would be required 774 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,359 Speaker 2: to actually achieve one c one point five C, which 775 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 2: is now pretty much the game. That game is up. 776 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 2: I mean, we're already passing it, but they've made it 777 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 2: very clear that it was going to require unprecedented transformative 778 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 2: change at the political and economic level. So what I'm 779 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,800 Speaker 2: talking about, though, is a kind of political denialism, you know, 780 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 2: or maybe call it just wishful thinking, Okay, might be 781 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 2: kinder way to put it. It's inconceivable that our current 782 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,800 Speaker 2: two party system are current the Democratic Party that we 783 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 2: have today as the only opposition to MAGA and the 784 00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 2: right and the full control of the false fuel industry 785 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 2: over our politics at this point. 786 00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:07,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, speaking of reasons for despair, Yeah, it's the Democratic 787 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 3: Party taking on Trump and magazine exactly. 788 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 2: It's inconceivable that the current current iteration of the Democratic Party, 789 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 2: you know, is capable of what we're talking about. And 790 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,680 Speaker 2: so clearly there has to be at the very least 791 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 2: a kind of political revolution within the Democratic Party, but 792 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 2: more likely, in order for that to even be a possibility, 793 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 2: there has to be a broad, broad, uh you know, 794 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,879 Speaker 2: bottom up you know, mass uprising of some sort kind 795 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,320 Speaker 2: of you know, truly mass movement that can force the 796 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 2: issue and that can really bring things to a halt, right, 797 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 2: And so there has been taught. One of the most 798 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,680 Speaker 2: positive developments I think in recent years has been, uh, 799 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 2: maybe longer than just recent years, has been the call 800 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 2: from the UAW and you know Sean Fayne for kind 801 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:10,080 Speaker 2: of synchronous strikes right in twenty twenty eight, and you know, 802 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,240 Speaker 2: basically a general strike, the idea of a general strike, 803 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:19,560 Speaker 2: I mean, that's the level of political uprising that we're 804 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 2: talking about. That's the kind of mass movement that we're 805 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,840 Speaker 2: talking about, right It's got to be at that scale 806 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 2: and that level, and that isn't happening right away, and 807 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,920 Speaker 2: it can't really happen. It can't just you know, you 808 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 2: don't just snap your fingers, and you know, a guy 809 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,799 Speaker 2: like me doesn't just write an op ed piece saying 810 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:45,279 Speaker 2: we need a political revolution, that something to just organically materialize. Right. 811 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 2: It's like, as Jane mcleavy, the great labor writer, late 812 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 2: great labor writer and organizer, always said, right, there are 813 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 2: no shortcuts, and she was referring specifically to, you know, 814 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,840 Speaker 2: within labor organizing. But I think it's true broadly of 815 00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 2: left you know, mass movement organizing. There's not really a 816 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,359 Speaker 2: shortcut to this. Now. On the other hand, we are 817 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,400 Speaker 2: not starting from scratch, right. There's been a lot of 818 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,759 Speaker 2: movement building over the last decade, and I think we 819 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,080 Speaker 2: can continue to build on that where we need to be, 820 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 2: and there are some real positive developments in that era, 821 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:23,880 Speaker 2: you know, along those lines. 822 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,719 Speaker 3: As we're talking, and as I was reading the book 823 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 3: and in general, as I'm following the trajectory of humanity 824 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,600 Speaker 3: and the climate, I come back to what you write 825 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,520 Speaker 3: about in the very last part of the book that 826 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,239 Speaker 3: you were quoting earlier about and I don't actually, I 827 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,480 Speaker 3: don't say this with a sense of fatalism, although it 828 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 3: might come off that way. It does feel like there 829 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,759 Speaker 3: will come a point when, again paraphrasing you hear that 830 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 3: enough of us are desperate enough that something there will 831 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 3: be the conditions for such a movement to come together. 832 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 2: Yes, And I don't think that it will just be 833 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 2: climate that will cause that desperation. That was also kind 834 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 2: of what I'm getting at there, right, you know, I 835 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,440 Speaker 2: wrote that in that piece in twenty nineteen. I was like, 836 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,080 Speaker 2: the only thing worse than climate catastrophe is climate catastrophe 837 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 2: plus fascism, right, which I hate to say, is kind 838 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,440 Speaker 2: of where we are, right. And that's been an idea 839 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,399 Speaker 2: that has circulated for a long time. Right, We've known 840 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,800 Speaker 2: for decades and people have warned that, you know, climate 841 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,279 Speaker 2: change itself could very easily give rise to the kind 842 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 2: of you know, social situation, social breakdown that could lead 843 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 2: to fascism. And of course we've had forms, certainly fascistic 844 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 2: forms of control and governance, you know, in this country 845 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,839 Speaker 2: and elsewhere for a long time. But I don't think 846 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,920 Speaker 2: what you said there is fatalistic in the least. I 847 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 2: don't see it that way, because the whole premise right 848 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,279 Speaker 2: is to fight on no one In my book, is 849 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,359 Speaker 2: talking about folding up their tent going home, right, I mean, 850 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:07,240 Speaker 2: all right, but it's it's it's being honest and facing 851 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,000 Speaker 2: up to the conditions that we have and that we 852 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:11,800 Speaker 2: are facing, and that what we are going to be 853 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,359 Speaker 2: living into in the coming decades. And so those are 854 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,880 Speaker 2: the conditions under which we're going to have to practice politics, 855 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,400 Speaker 2: than which we're going to have to build movements, and 856 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 2: you know that we're going to have to fight, and 857 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,480 Speaker 2: in some ways that's going to make our task far 858 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 2: more difficult, and you know, maybe in some ways it 859 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,960 Speaker 2: might actually open up opportunities. 860 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,960 Speaker 3: When we accept or come to terms with the fact 861 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 3: that the old rules don't really apply anymore. That does 862 00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,719 Speaker 3: I think there's a sense of freedom that can follow that, 863 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:47,800 Speaker 3: right exactly, In writing these essays and reviewing them for 864 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,840 Speaker 3: this book, did you personally get where you wanted to 865 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 3: get or where you needed to get, Whether that's a 866 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,200 Speaker 3: sense of clarity or I guess piece of some kind, 867 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,080 Speaker 3: did you get where you needed to get with this book? 868 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 2: Do you think personally? Yeah? I mean, man, that's a 869 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:10,520 Speaker 2: tough question, because you know, you know, some days I 870 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:15,360 Speaker 2: feel that way, in other days I don't. Yeah, I 871 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,200 Speaker 2: guess it depends on when you. 872 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,680 Speaker 4: Catch me right how about right now? 873 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would say that right now I 874 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 2: feel about as as mentally healthy as I probably ever get, 875 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,240 Speaker 2: which which isn't to say that I'm entirely mentally healthy. 876 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,839 Speaker 2: You know. The despair is always there, you know. It's 877 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 2: like like I use this phrase in the book, and 878 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,920 Speaker 2: I'm on the other side of despair, you know' I've 879 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,440 Speaker 2: I've worked through it. And that doesn't mean it's just 880 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 2: gone away and everything is great, everything is fine. But 881 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,080 Speaker 2: I'm learning, you know, I'm learning to live with it. 882 00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,719 Speaker 2: And again, I can't stress this enough. You know, the 883 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,480 Speaker 2: the healthiest things I do, the healthiest things in my 884 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 2: life are being part of communities, Being part of communities 885 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,439 Speaker 2: of people who are actually working together on this. Being 886 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:20,200 Speaker 2: in isolation, being a self sufficient individual, you know, is 887 00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:20,800 Speaker 2: not the way. 888 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,960 Speaker 3: It was interesting going back to what we were talking about, 889 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:29,360 Speaker 3: focusing on the you know, the dignity of the individual 890 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:35,320 Speaker 3: human being versus the abstraction the idea of humanity, and 891 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 3: thinking about that alongside this idea that we none of 892 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 3: us can do this alone. There's a way of seeing 893 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:48,160 Speaker 3: people as individuals while also recognizing that the sort of 894 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 3: neoliberal individualistic approach to surviving in the twenty first century 895 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 3: is doomed to fail. And I found it interesting to 896 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,960 Speaker 3: the way you talk about them getting all sorts of balloons. 897 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:02,600 Speaker 4: Now thanks to. 898 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,840 Speaker 3: Zoom Zoom really liked my point. But the way that 899 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,920 Speaker 3: you talk about the individual and the way that the 900 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,760 Speaker 3: you know, these philosophers and thinkers who you cite talked 901 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:17,960 Speaker 3: about the individual. It's almost like reclaiming the individual, the idea, 902 00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,320 Speaker 3: the value, the dignity, and the individual from the way 903 00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:26,920 Speaker 3: it's been warped by the right, by the neoliberal you know, capitalists. 904 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,080 Speaker 2: And to some extent by the left as well. Although 905 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 2: what I'll say there is I'm not I'm certainly not. 906 00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:37,160 Speaker 2: I am not a member of the anti woke liberal consensus. 907 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,360 Speaker 2: You know, that's not me at all. But I do 908 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,840 Speaker 2: think what I was trying to break down here is 909 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:49,000 Speaker 2: this kind of simplistic binary that kind of opposes collectivism 910 00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,920 Speaker 2: and identity politics, you know, group based politics with individualism. 911 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,040 Speaker 2: Like I think that it's never that simple. And most 912 00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,560 Speaker 2: of the people I know and have been in deep 913 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,840 Speaker 2: conversation with in the climate justice movement, and you know, 914 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,919 Speaker 2: people of all all identities, one thing that we seem 915 00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,640 Speaker 2: to agree on is that that that's fart, is that 916 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 2: that that's far too simplistic, That that that a healthy 917 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:22,040 Speaker 2: community and a healthy movement values every individual right at 918 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,680 Speaker 2: the same time, that we recognize difference, and that we 919 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:33,720 Speaker 2: especially recognize differences of privilege and of you know, social oppression. Right. So, 920 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,600 Speaker 2: so all that said, I guess what I'm trying to do, 921 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 2: or what I realized at some point, is that I wasn't. 922 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,400 Speaker 2: I'm just not willing to give up, you know, a 923 00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,840 Speaker 2: sense of universal humanism, a sense of universal human solidarity, right, Like, 924 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 2: and I think it's important, you know, I'm looking back 925 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,360 Speaker 2: to these writers who are part of the liberal humanist tradition. 926 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 2: I mean, look, Hannah Arendt and Albert Camu are not 927 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 2: necessarily authors thinkers that you'd expect to find in a 928 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,520 Speaker 2: book published by Haymarket. Okay, the Market Books, a self 929 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,600 Speaker 2: described radical left publisher, right, I mean, these are these 930 01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,160 Speaker 2: these folks are are liberal humanists, and they have a 931 01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 2: lot to answer for. I mean, that tradition has a 932 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,840 Speaker 2: lot to answer for, right, But I'm not willing to 933 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:21,320 Speaker 2: throw out the humanist baby with the liberal bathwater, you know, 934 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:27,200 Speaker 2: Like I'm not a liberal anymore. I'm I'm I'm far 935 01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,760 Speaker 2: I'm way too far left to be considered a liberal, 936 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,960 Speaker 2: right right. But I do consider myself a universal humanist, 937 01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,560 Speaker 2: and I think it is possible there is such thing 938 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,560 Speaker 2: as a as a radical left humanism. 939 01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,040 Speaker 3: There's a question you ask in the book, and I 940 01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,200 Speaker 3: wanted to pose it to you and see if you 941 01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,880 Speaker 3: you have come to an answer or some semblance of 942 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,160 Speaker 3: an answer through this process. Okay, And you ask, what 943 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:53,840 Speaker 3: does a life of radical. 944 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 4: Commitment look like? 945 01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,080 Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if you have if you have an 946 01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:01,560 Speaker 3: answer that I guess that's satisfied you for now, because 947 01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,400 Speaker 3: there's no way to answer it clearly and unequivocally right 948 01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 3: right right. 949 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,960 Speaker 2: And I, first of all, again right off the top, 950 01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,600 Speaker 2: I would say I wouldn't try to prescribe for anyone. 951 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you, Adam like, what a 952 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:18,720 Speaker 2: life of radical commitment must look like for you, all right. 953 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,560 Speaker 3: Although I wouldn't mind some guidance. It would make the 954 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:25,920 Speaker 3: you know, the figuring out of life. 955 01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:32,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, Well, there are kind of two operative 956 01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,360 Speaker 2: terms in that question, radical and commitment. The kind of 957 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,280 Speaker 2: radicalism I'm talking about there is the kind that both 958 01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,080 Speaker 2: has a radical analysis, right. It's it's on that intellectual 959 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,440 Speaker 2: level that sees the problem, you know, in a radical 960 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,520 Speaker 2: sense of seeing going to the root of the problem, 961 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 2: which for me and many others increasingly is our capitalist 962 01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,920 Speaker 2: system and is our system of you know, are the 963 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:06,280 Speaker 2: legacy of colonialism and slavery and all of that, which 964 01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,240 Speaker 2: are totally capitalism, and those are totally intertwined. But it 965 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,960 Speaker 2: also refers to a kind of radicalism I don't want 966 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,880 Speaker 2: to say merely of tactics, right, like the willingness to 967 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 2: go sabotage of pipeline or something, but kind of on 968 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 2: a personal level, that willingness to do the things that 969 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:32,360 Speaker 2: others will find extreme to do and say, the things 970 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:39,280 Speaker 2: that will be called extreme, called unreasonable, well outside the 971 01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:47,440 Speaker 2: Overton window, you know of polite discourse, polite and reasonable discourse. 972 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,240 Speaker 2: And so I think, what does that look like? Well, 973 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,880 Speaker 2: we can look at all sorts of examples from history, right, 974 01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:59,560 Speaker 2: I mean, the abolitionists were were the radicals of their time, 975 01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:04,280 Speaker 2: and we're considered dangerous and extreme, and you know, pretty 976 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:08,960 Speaker 2: much in every successful social movement in American history alone, 977 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,640 Speaker 2: you can look back and the people who led those 978 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,840 Speaker 2: movements were the radicals of their time, and they were 979 01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:22,280 Speaker 2: considered extreme and they and they had that radical analysis too, right, 980 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,920 Speaker 2: that's what was driving those movements. So yeah, Like for me, 981 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:32,440 Speaker 2: the word commitment then is, let's say I reach a 982 01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:36,200 Speaker 2: point where I am I get it. I've kind of 983 01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,200 Speaker 2: reached that point intellectually and internally, you know, in terms 984 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:43,240 Speaker 2: of my result to you know, take action or say 985 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,200 Speaker 2: the things that need to be said. The commitment part, 986 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,080 Speaker 2: I think has to do with the long haul, staying 987 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,360 Speaker 2: in it, sticking with it for the long haul. That 988 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:56,480 Speaker 2: really is what the book is all about. Right. Where 989 01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,760 Speaker 2: does that kind of commitment come from? I don't know. 990 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,240 Speaker 2: I don't know. The best answer I have is that 991 01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:07,000 Speaker 2: it comes from my comrades, right, from that collective sense 992 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,959 Speaker 2: of solidarity. Right. But that's in some ways too easy 993 01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,240 Speaker 2: an answer, you know. I think just each one of 994 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,600 Speaker 2: us it's spiritual. You know, for lack of a better word, 995 01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:19,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean it's religious in any like conventional sense, 996 01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:23,000 Speaker 2: but for some people it is. For me, it actually is, 997 01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:28,280 Speaker 2: but it's it's somehow it requires a willing to, you know, 998 01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:35,040 Speaker 2: an introspection and a level of self inquiry into parts 999 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:36,960 Speaker 2: of ourselves that we don't really understand. 1000 01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,320 Speaker 3: I think that's a good place to end it. I 1001 01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,680 Speaker 3: will just say that, even though it is a heavy 1002 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,960 Speaker 3: book a heavy topic, it did as I was reading 1003 01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,840 Speaker 3: it and then having this conversation with you just now, 1004 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 3: it makes me feel like we're going to find our 1005 01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:59,360 Speaker 3: way through it. Don't know how, but there's something about 1006 01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:05,640 Speaker 3: confronting the darkness or the despair head on insolidarity with 1007 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:11,000 Speaker 3: other people that makes it feel doable. Not without struggle 1008 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:15,840 Speaker 3: and strife and hardship, but certainly doable. So I am 1009 01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,520 Speaker 3: very grateful for you for writing the book and for 1010 01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,560 Speaker 3: this conversation, So thanks very much when really enjoyed it. 1011 01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you and amen, brother