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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: our podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet, where

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Speaker 1: we explore the intersection of technology, social media, the Internet,

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Speaker 1: and identity. So this is me doing my best impression

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Speaker 1: of one of my favorite podcasters, Michael Hobbs. Mike, what

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Speaker 1: do you know about Andrew Kuberman?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll do my best, Peter, And as far as

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't know a whole lot about him.

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Speaker 2: But he's a podcaster, a scientist of some sort, and

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Speaker 2: he seems to have a pretty big following in the

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Speaker 2: health lifestyle space.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty spot on. So Angie Huberman is a neuroscientist.

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Speaker 1: He has a very popular podcast. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: most popular podcasts in the world. He currently is a

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Speaker 1: professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford University's School of Medicine.

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Speaker 2: Ever heard of it, Yeah, a little old college called

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Speaker 2: Stanford University.

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Speaker 1: So since twenty twenty one, he has hosted a extremely

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Speaker 1: popular health and science focused podcast called Huberman Lab that

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Speaker 1: is basically all about biohacking your life, your health, and

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Speaker 1: your relationships buttressed by science. He has the third most

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Speaker 1: popular podcast in the United States on Spotify, and at

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Speaker 1: least at one time his podcast was the most followed

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Speaker 1: on Apple. He has five point one million YouTube subscribers

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Speaker 1: and as Instagram account has like five point five million people.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people swear by his life advice. All

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Speaker 1: different kinds of people listen to his podcast. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to make it seem like it's just men, but

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Speaker 1: it has really especially taken off with men. I have

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Speaker 1: heard Huberman called Goop for men.

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Speaker 3: Goop as in like slimy gunk.

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Speaker 1: Goop, as in the lifestyle brand brought to us by

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Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow. But instead of telling women to like drink

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Speaker 1: fifty five dollars smoothies or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Or like insert some crystals or.

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Speaker 1: Insert some crystals into their Vershina, it's for men. So

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Speaker 1: the reason why we're talking about Andrew Huberman is because

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Speaker 1: he is in the zeitgeist right now. After this very long,

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Speaker 1: very well written, very well researched New York mag article

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Speaker 1: just dropped doing this deep dive into his personal life

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Speaker 1: and his relationships with women. Now I'm not even gonna

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Speaker 1: pretend to not be biased here. I live for a

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Speaker 1: long read in New York Mag or The Cut specifically,

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Speaker 1: Like we are fans of New York Mag in this house.

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Speaker 1: If there's ever a long read in New York Mag,

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Speaker 1: you know that's going to be the kind of piece

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Speaker 1: that everyone is talking about for a week. And the

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Speaker 1: Human Bean article it's no exception.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a written article. It reads like literature,

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Speaker 2: Like there were so many sentences that I read.

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Speaker 3: It's like, that's an amazing sentence. Such a nice read.

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Speaker 1: And so for folks who are listening who have not

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Speaker 1: read it, I do want to give the caveat that

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Speaker 1: it's very long. I listened to the article and that

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Speaker 1: took about an hour, Like like New York Meg has

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Speaker 1: the option to have someone read it. That took about

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Speaker 1: an hour. Reading it took a while, so like it

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Speaker 1: is a long read, but I thought it was worth it.

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Speaker 1: And the piece has kind of invited scrutiny, not just

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Speaker 1: into answer Schuberman's personal life, but it's professional work as

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Speaker 1: a scientist and a podcaster too. Mike, you are a scientist,

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Speaker 1: that's right, and you are a man also, right, So

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Speaker 1: I thought that you actually might be a good person

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about this. Like I said, should

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Speaker 1: they upfront that you have not deeply studied Huberman's science

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Speaker 1: or his body of work, but you generally like have

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Speaker 1: a sense of what is it is not okay or

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Speaker 1: ethical in the eyes of science, correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least I It's something that I spent

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Speaker 2: a lot of time thinking about and reading about.

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Speaker 3: And you know, who.

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Speaker 2: Ultimately gets to say what is right and ethical is

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Speaker 2: kind of an existential question. But yeah, those are things

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Speaker 2: that I think about and feel like I have a

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Speaker 2: good basis to evaluate things.

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Speaker 1: So initially I actually wasn't even going to get into

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Speaker 1: this on the show because you know, at first, I

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Speaker 1: was sort of seeing a lot of people's reactions to

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Speaker 1: the piece, and I thought people were saying, like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: this is just frivolous, this is about his dating life, whatever, whatever,

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, we I'm interested in this,

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Speaker 1: but we shouldn't talk about it on the podcast. But

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Speaker 1: it kind of was a little bit of a bug

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Speaker 1: in my brain, and after reading the article, I noticed

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Speaker 1: that I was thinking about it quite a lot, and

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Speaker 1: I was sort of trying to put it in context

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Speaker 1: with this current political and social and media moment that

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Speaker 1: we're in where we have the rise of people like RFK,

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Speaker 1: Like I do think we're in this sort of I

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Speaker 1: don't know, suito science moment with men. You know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times when we're talking about medical misinformation, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about women, but I think we talk a lot

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Speaker 1: less about how we see it moving with men. And

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Speaker 1: I thought this article just really kind of got me

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Speaker 1: thinking about that, and it also spoke to something I've

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Speaker 1: been noticing as this trend in podcasting for a while,

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Speaker 1: like white guy tech or science podcaster who sort of

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Speaker 1: talks to other white guy science or tech podcasters and

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Speaker 1: thus enjoy this kind of like self sustaining vibe as

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Speaker 1: we are trustworthy white men of science and technology and

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Speaker 1: knowledge and you should listen to us. We're very learned men.

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Speaker 1: And I really do see Huberman as fitting within that,

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Speaker 1: even though I do think that he kind of enjoyed

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Speaker 1: maybe a more elevated position within that circle. I know

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Speaker 1: that he's the kind of podcaster who's friendly with folks

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Speaker 1: like Joe Rogan. He goes on Rogan Show all the time, Timaris,

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Speaker 1: So if you don't know who that is, he's another

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Speaker 1: very popular kind of lifestyle entrepreneur, guru podcaster and Lex Friedman,

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Speaker 1: who is the number one tech podcaster in the world,

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Speaker 1: who in researching for this episode, I realized sometime between

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Speaker 1: last night and maybe four months ago, when I did

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Speaker 1: a podcast episode about him, he blocked me on Twitter.

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Speaker 3: Oh Man, how does that make you feel?

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Speaker 1: Bridget honestly confused, because I went and checked. I have

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Speaker 1: never tweeted at him. I barely tweet and I did

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Speaker 1: a search and I was like, yeah, I've never mentioned

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Speaker 1: him on Twitter. I have mentioned him on the podcast

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Speaker 1: quite a few times, and so I have a difficult

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Speaker 1: time imagining that Lex Redman is listening to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: But you know, maybe he heard what I had to

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Speaker 1: say about his show and didn't like it and was like,

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Speaker 1: let me just block her just preemptively.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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Speaker 2: So maybe he just did not want to hear it.

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Speaker 1: Lex, if you're listening, I'm sorry I made fun of

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Speaker 1: your podcast. Anyway. I think we're kind of seeing Huberman's

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Speaker 1: status as like a learned public man, and the way

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Speaker 1: that we think about that status that is typically occupied

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Speaker 1: by a certain type of white man I think we're

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Speaker 1: sort of seeing that unravel a little bit now with

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Speaker 1: this piece. We're seeing people kind to peek behind the

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Speaker 1: curtain of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That New York magpiece certainly made it seem so right

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Speaker 2: they and they made the point specifically, sort of like

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Speaker 2: the point that you just made that it's it's not

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Speaker 2: just like, look at the messy details of this person's life,

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Speaker 2: but really connects with his public persona and I guess

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Speaker 2: brand that he is serving up to people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess I would posit that that is

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Speaker 1: why any of this matters, why anybody should care. People

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Speaker 1: might be thinking, well, why should I care how this

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Speaker 1: podcaster treats the women in this personal life. I am

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Speaker 1: not particularly interested in Angreie Huberman's personal or romantic life.

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Speaker 1: I will in this episode get into some of what

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Speaker 1: the article says about his relationships with women, so folks

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Speaker 1: have that context to understand like why we're talking about

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Speaker 1: this at all. But the reason that I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: talking about him is because there is a ton of

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Speaker 1: overlap in Huberman's podcasting and sort of public sciencing work

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Speaker 1: for lack of a better phrase, and technology and like

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Speaker 1: popular attitudes that tech leaders hold a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in tech are listening to his show Huberman Lab and

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Speaker 1: using that to guide their own thinking. This absolutely makes sense,

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Speaker 1: and a culture where you have this mix of productivity

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Speaker 1: hacks that bleed over into like lifestyle or health hacks

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Speaker 1: like ketto and instrument fasting and pills and potions and

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Speaker 1: powders and quick fixes that promise quick success. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is just my opinion as a casual observer of all

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Speaker 1: of this. I do think there is like a thread

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Speaker 1: of fat phobia or like ableism in this, this idea

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Speaker 1: that being physically fit is akin to also being professionally

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Speaker 1: successful and thus being the happiest and best version of yourself,

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Speaker 1: the version of yourself that has the healthiest and most

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Speaker 1: full relationships. It sounds like this is a mindset that

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Speaker 1: says all of that starts with being a physically fit,

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Speaker 1: physiologically fit healthy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right, And I think that is an

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Speaker 2: idea that's been repackaged and resold many times over the

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Speaker 2: past several hundred years, even before then, probably right, like

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Speaker 2: the idea that physical health is you know, tightly linked

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Speaker 2: with spiritual health and virtue, that's an idea that grifters

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Speaker 2: have been.

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Speaker 3: Lucratively promoting for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So Huberman himself is like really jacked, and I can't

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Speaker 1: help but think that that plays into all of this.

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Speaker 1: As writer Maria Alex Beach put it on Twitter, he's

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Speaker 1: the prototype of the American beef female, which which we

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Speaker 1: don't associate with scientists. The dissonance between how he looks

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Speaker 1: and what he knows is compelling. He gathers our communal

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Speaker 1: preoccupation with health, body self care, anti aging, longevity, with

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Speaker 1: our respect for those with wisdom and knowledge enchanted were

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Speaker 1: easy to hustle. Essentially, he's the worst of us.

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Speaker 2: That description from Maria Alex Beach, it makes me think

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Speaker 2: of Beast from the Marvel movies, like a big, jacked

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Speaker 2: beast of a man who's also a nerdy scientist.

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Speaker 1: It's a type. So Huberman is like the main guy

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Speaker 1: of what's known as biohacking, or trying to shift or

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Speaker 1: improve your physiology and nervous system to function better. Now,

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Speaker 1: on its face, this is not a bad thing, like inherently,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, I would actually argue that women are

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Speaker 1: kind of the og biohackers. Like I remember back when

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Speaker 1: a lot of the tech bros were skipping meals and

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Speaker 1: instead drinking that drink soilent, which a lot of women

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Speaker 1: were like, oh, you mean slim fast. It was a base,

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Speaker 1: a degendered slim fest that your mom maybe drank in

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Speaker 1: the eighties. You know. So, I think biohacking is something

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Speaker 1: that I associate with women that has kind of been

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Speaker 1: rebranded as for masculine men.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that I think rebranded is a good way to

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Speaker 2: put it, because it's a term that I think is

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Speaker 2: primarily used to market things. And yeah, the idea that

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Speaker 2: it's you know, I hadn't thought about this, but originally

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Speaker 2: was more associated with women.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know.

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Speaker 2: Even back in the early twentieth century, women were talking

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Speaker 2: about the timing of menstrual cycles to avoid unintended pregnancies

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Speaker 2: and speculating about a pill that might someday allow women

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Speaker 2: to avoid them altogether.

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Speaker 3: Right, biohacking exactly.

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Speaker 1: But the biohacking space has kind of been taken up

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Speaker 1: by a real masculine energy, which again I think makes

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Speaker 1: sense in this social media climate where people are always

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Speaker 1: talking about, you know, high value men and low value men.

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Speaker 1: There is a ton of overlap between the biohacking space

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Speaker 1: and just a real toxic brand of masculinity. But in general,

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Speaker 1: I think that men have kind of been an untapped

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Speaker 1: market when it comes to stuff like lifestyle and diet advice.

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Speaker 1: As women, I can tell you we are we have

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Speaker 1: been inundated by that kind of junk since we were children,

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Speaker 1: So we have a good sense of it because a

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Speaker 1: lot of it out there that is trected toward us.

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Speaker 1: I think that men, it's just a different market and

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of an untapped market when it

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Speaker 1: comes to lifestyle and diet advice specifically for men. So

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Speaker 1: when someone like Huberman comes along and has this different

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Speaker 1: vibe of lifestyle and diet advice for men, one that

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Speaker 1: sort of gives the perception as being rooted in science,

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Speaker 1: not just toxic masculinity. Of course, it takes off. Pubreman

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Speaker 1: emerges in twenty twenty one as this kind of kinder, gentlier,

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Speaker 1: less BROI version of biohacking. However, as Jonathan Jerry, science

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Speaker 1: communicator with the Office of Science and Society at McGill

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Speaker 1: University puts it, Huberman presents the same kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: just in a less broy less masculine package. Jerry writes,

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Speaker 1: even though this podcast is firmly rooted in the masculine

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Speaker 1: space of body optimization that has grabbed hold of large

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Speaker 1: swaths of the tech sector, Huterman is a lot less

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Speaker 1: BROWI than his fellow influencers. There's a real gentleness and

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Speaker 1: care to his delivery. The packaging is less aggressive, but

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Speaker 1: the content does not stray far from Silicon Valley's love

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Speaker 1: affair with the tweaking of healthy human biology. And to

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Speaker 1: add to that, I'll just say it, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of men in this space might

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Speaker 1: just have issues with women. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: them maybe don't respect women that much. I think they

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Speaker 1: maybe don't see women as equals. I think they maybe

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Speaker 1: don't really value what women have to say, how women think.

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Speaker 1: And so I think in that context, both professionally and

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Speaker 1: maybe personally, it maybe does kind of matter how somebody

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Speaker 1: like Andrew Huberman treats women. To me, As you said,

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Speaker 1: this is so much more than a look how messy

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Speaker 1: this guy's personal life is. That's all gotgat it story.

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Speaker 1: It's a story that maybe answers some of the very

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Speaker 1: long held criticisms of Andrew Huberman's podcast, like that he

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Speaker 1: barely features any women experts, for one, and it poses

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Speaker 1: questions about what happens when people who have expertise in

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Speaker 1: one area of study kind of dine out on that

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Speaker 1: and make it seem like they know what they're talking

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Speaker 1: about when it comes to everything. And on top of that,

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Speaker 1: the dangers of building your life around the advice of

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Speaker 1: somebody who the article suggests we may not even really know.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't listen to Huberman's podcast, you might

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Speaker 1: not know this. But lots and lots and lots of

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Speaker 1: people deeply subscribe to Huberman's life advice. There's a term

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Speaker 1: for it on TikTok. A Huberman husband a man who

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Speaker 1: follows Huberman's life advice, and that advice like has them

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Speaker 1: getting up before sunrise, has them waiting ninety minutes before

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Speaker 1: having their first coffee of the day, you know, has

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Speaker 1: them getting like a specific kind of low angle sunlight

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Speaker 1: and doing a high intensity workout and an ice bath

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Speaker 1: in the morning and all of this stuff. So if

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Speaker 1: all of these people are building their identities around this

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Speaker 1: guy's guidance, which they absolutely are, I do think looking

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Speaker 1: into how he thinks about women is worthwhile. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's a frivolous clickbait dive into someone's personal

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Speaker 1: life that is really unfair.

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Speaker 3: Necessarily, Yeah, I think that's a fair point. I think.

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Speaker 2: Anybody who positions themselves to a wide public audience as

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Speaker 2: a person who has the answer right, like who has

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Speaker 2: wisdom that should be followed that other people should shape

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Speaker 2: their lives around. I think it's absolutely appropriate to scrutinize

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Speaker 2: their words, their message, and the extent to which their

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Speaker 2: personal values live up to what they are publicly espousing.

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Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of popular tech voices

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Speaker 1: who disagree with you. Lex Freedmen, for one, says that

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Speaker 1: probing into Andrew Hubermant's personal life is an invasion of

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Speaker 1: privacy and essentially a hit job, which you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Like I can sort of see what they're

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Speaker 1: saying in some regards, but I would point to the

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Speaker 1: fact that Hubermant's podcast is in part about having healthy

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Speaker 1: relationships and emotional intelligence. So like, if you build an

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Speaker 1: entire big platform about how people should listen to you

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Speaker 1: about how to have healthy relationships and a healthy emotionality,

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Speaker 1: maybe looking into how you have built relationships and how

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Speaker 1: you show up emotionally is fair game. Like on this

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Speaker 1: podcast that I host, I intentionally almost never talk about

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Speaker 1: my personal relationships on the podcast. So guess what, Like,

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Speaker 1: nobody's digging into my personal relationship history because I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying listen to me, and when it comes to personal relationships,

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Speaker 1: it never comes up. So like, I do kind of

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Speaker 1: feel like if you build an entire platform that it's

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Speaker 1: about listening to you and modeling after what you say,

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Speaker 1: it does seem kind of fair to me to look

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Speaker 1: into it. And if you don't want people looking into it,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to build that kind of platform.

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Speaker 3: Let's hit a quick break.

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Speaker 1: Ederer back, and I would guess I would say that

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Speaker 1: beyond his dating life, this piece is really looking at

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Speaker 1: the values of this person who has risen to be

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Speaker 1: one of the country's biggest pop scientists, who specifically has

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Speaker 1: become a guru to others. So like, if this person

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Speaker 1: is a guru to millions of people, it matters. If

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Speaker 1: this person is also a liar, it matters if this

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Speaker 1: person is also a grifter. Here's how the New York

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Speaker 1: magpiece puts it. Huberman sells a dream of control down

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Speaker 1: to the cellular level, but something has gone wrong. In

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Speaker 1: the midst of immense fame, a chasm has opened between

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Speaker 1: the podcast or preaching dopominergic restraint and a man with

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Speaker 1: new found wealth with access to a world unseen by

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Speaker 1: most professors. The problem with the man who is always

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Speaker 1: working on himself is that he may also be working

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Speaker 1: on you.

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Speaker 3: Dun, dun, dunn.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into exactly what is in this article.

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Speaker 1: The majority of this piece, and the messiest bits, frankly,

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Speaker 1: are about his chaotic romantic life. Basically, Huberman is accused

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Speaker 1: of dating at least six women at the same time,

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Speaker 1: all while giving the women the impression that they are monogamous.

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Speaker 1: He maintains this via a very elaborate system of deception

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Speaker 1: and lies. The women are all kind of like him.

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Speaker 1: They're all very health conscious. They're all described as the

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Speaker 1: kind of people who are really particular about what they

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Speaker 1: put in their body. So because they were all told

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Speaker 1: that they were exclusive with Huberman, they all had unprotected

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Speaker 1: sex with him, not being told that he was also

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Speaker 1: having unprotected sex with a lot of other women at

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Speaker 1: the same time. You know, these women were living this

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Speaker 1: kind of intentional lifestyle that he preaches on the show.

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Speaker 1: And here is Andrew, in my opinion, kind of sabotaging

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Speaker 1: that by depriving them of the ability to make health

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Speaker 1: choices for their own bodies through deception. Like, I don't

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Speaker 1: think that is a frivolous thing for anybody to be doing,

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Speaker 1: let alone a scientist whose whole thing is you should

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Speaker 1: be really mindful about what you put in your body

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Speaker 1: unless that thing you're putting in your body is me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, earlier on you asked about ethics, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a complicated thing for anyone to know what is

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Speaker 2: ethical or not. But it's also like not that complicated

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Speaker 2: in some ways. And if you want a big, bright

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Speaker 2: red warning flag that an ethical boundary is being crossed,

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Speaker 2: just keep an eye out for deception, right, Like, if

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Speaker 2: there's deception happening, you should really question whether what's going

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Speaker 2: on is ethical.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that's like, that feels like a pretty strong line

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Speaker 2: here that that has been crossed.

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Speaker 1: Well, according to these women in this article, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of just going on. Let's get into it. Basically,

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Speaker 1: he was not treating these women with respect, to say

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Speaker 1: the least. So here's a couple of bits from the

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Speaker 1: article that really drive that point home. It is suggested

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Speaker 1: that he may have given at least one of these

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Speaker 1: women an std HPV. Specifically, in twenty twenty one, one

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Speaker 1: woman tested positive for a high risk form of HPV,

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Speaker 1: one of the variants linked to cervical cancer. I had

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Speaker 1: never tested positive, she says, and had been tested regularly

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Speaker 1: for ten years. A spokesperson for Huberman says he has

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Speaker 1: never tested positive for HPV. According to the CDC, there

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Speaker 1: is currently no approved test for HPV in men. When

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Speaker 1: the woman brought this up, she says that Andrew told

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Speaker 1: her that you could contract HPV from many things. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he did say that, Yeah, maybe you gotta have

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Speaker 1: a toilet seed.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know, Yeah, I don't know what you do.

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Speaker 1: So there's one woman who has kids from a previous relationship,

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Speaker 1: and she says that Huberman fixated on this and that

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Speaker 1: it's something they thought about a lot. At one point,

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Speaker 1: she says that he told her that being in a

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Speaker 1: relationship with her was like bobbing for apples in feces.

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Speaker 1: Apparently things only got worse when they moved in together.

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Speaker 1: Sarah was in fact changing, She felt herself getting smaller,

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Speaker 1: constantly appeasing. She apologized again and again and again. I

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Speaker 1: have been selfish, childish and confused, she said. As a result,

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Speaker 1: I need your protection. A spokesperson for Huberman denies Sarah's

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Speaker 1: accounts of their fights, denies that his rage intensified with cohabitation,

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Speaker 1: denies that he fixated on Sarah's decision to have children

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Speaker 1: with another man, and denies that he said that being

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Speaker 1: with her was like bobbing for apples in feces. Which

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Speaker 1: side note. If somebody that I am in a romantic

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Speaker 1: relationship with ever tells me that being with me is

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Speaker 1: like bobbing for apples and feces, I have every bit

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Speaker 1: of information I need about how this person feels about me.

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Speaker 1: There is no other piece of clarifying information or context

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Speaker 1: that is needed for me to understand how they feel

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Speaker 1: and what's going on.

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Speaker 2: It's also such a strange phrase, like I have to

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Speaker 2: imagine that it was said in anger, Like he was

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Speaker 2: probably pretty mad when he said that.

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Speaker 3: It's that sort of thing you say when you're feeling great.

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Speaker 1: You think he said it as like pillow talk, a

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Speaker 1: sweet whisper.

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Speaker 2: I don't. I think he probably said it when he

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Speaker 2: was mad. But to be so mad to say something

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Speaker 2: like that and then use the term feces. There are

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Speaker 2: so many other words in the English language that align

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Speaker 2: more with like emotions of anger and rage than feces.

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Speaker 2: So it's like this weird artificial layer of like restraint

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Speaker 2: or scientific jargon to like put a clean face on

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Speaker 2: just really saying a terrible thing to a woman.

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Speaker 1: Well, when asked about that comment, a spokesperson for Huberman said, quote,

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Speaker 1: doctor Huberman is very much in control of his emotions. Which,

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Speaker 1: if there's ever a situation in my life where a

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Speaker 1: spokesperson has to be telling the public that bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: is very in control of emotions, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: know what's going on. Woof.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's hope it doesn't come to that.

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Speaker 1: So apparently Hubert was actively undergoing IVF with this woman

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Speaker 1: while also maintaining other relationships behind her back, a point

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Speaker 1: that he doesn't even really disagree with. He disputes that

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Speaker 1: they were trying to start a family together, but his

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Speaker 1: spokesperson clarified that they did not want to try for

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Speaker 1: a baby together, that he quote decided to create embryos

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Speaker 1: by IVF. I don't know how that is different than

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Speaker 1: intending to sort a family with her I guess that

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Speaker 1: that specific point is important to him in some way.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how that's. Like that claim is not

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Speaker 1: really in dispute, but like it's important to him to

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Speaker 1: be like, Oh, we didn't want a baby, we were

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Speaker 1: just doing IVF.

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Speaker 2: There seems to be some like weird feelings around children

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Speaker 2: going on with that whole story around that woman, Like

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Speaker 2: the idea that a major source of friction in their

436
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: relationship was that he disapproves of her decision to have

437
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: kids with a different man before they ever met. That

438
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 2: just feels kind of weird.

439
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if you've ever been played by a player,

440
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 1: this next one is gonna sound real familiar to you.

441
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: Huberman relied on pretty sexist and misogynistic tropes about women

442
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: being crazy to keep the women from finding out about

443
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: each other. So the piece reads, whenever Sarah had suspicions

444
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: about Andrew's interaction with another woman, he had a particular

445
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: way of talking about the woman in question. She says

446
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: he said the women were stalkers, alcoholics, and compulsive liars.

447
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: He told her that one woman tore out her hair

448
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: with chunks of flesh attached to it. A story like

449
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: that's gotta be true. He told her a story about

450
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: a woman who fabricated a story about a dead baby

451
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: to quote entrap him. A spokesperson for Huberman denies the

452
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: account of the denigraation of women and the dead baby

453
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: story and says that the hair story was taken out

454
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: of context. So curious to know the actual what is

455
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: that story in context?

456
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: You know how women are always ripping their hair out

457
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: with chunks of their own flesh.

458
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 3: You know how women are.

459
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: Bitches, me crazy bitches be tearing out and shun some.

460
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: Hair with flesh attached, literally just like raving lunatics all

461
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: the time.

462
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: Most of the time, Sarah believed him the women were

463
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: probably crazy. He was a celebrity. He had to be careful.

464
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: So this is something that I have learned from like

465
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: not to be not just trying to be like a

466
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: relationship guru. But any man who tells you that like, oh,

467
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: there's just a bunch of crazy women in my orbit.

468
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: Every all the women around me are crazy, that man

469
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: is a liar. Like that man is not telling the truth.

470
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: That man is a liar. That is like one of

471
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 1: my like deeply held red flags and life. Because even

472
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: if that were true, what's going on with you, that

473
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: you just are the kind of person who like, all

474
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: these crazy women just flock to you like that doesn't

475
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: even if that was true, which it almost which I

476
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: think it almost never is, even that is not great.

477
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: It only holds up if one has a worldview that

478
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: all women are crazy. Right, It's not that I have

479
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: created this social dynamic where I'm surrounded by crazy women.

480
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: Just all women are crazy and they can't help but

481
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: be attracted to me, you know how I am. So

482
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: that's where we're at. I'm just surrounded by all these

483
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: crazy women. That's that's the way that that makes sense.

484
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: Yes I am. I am the healthy, normal, normal one,

485
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: and all these women, you know how women are. This

486
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: reminds me so much of a story from my personal

487
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: life involving friends where there was a friend breakup and

488
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: between a man and a woman, and the woman her

489
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: account was like very specific, she had so many details.

490
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: He did X y Z to me, he did this offense,

491
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: this offense on that day, this offense, and then his

492
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: account was like she was crazy, Like that was like

493
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: that was the like she had a dossier of his

494
00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: specific wrongdoings and he was just like she crazy. So

495
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: this is another pretty common thing. I think Huberman apparently

496
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: had a type. He went after these dynamic, assertive, confident women,

497
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: and then he wanted these women to be kind of

498
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: submissive to him. The piece reads multiple women recall him

499
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: saying he preferred the kind of relationship in which the

500
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: woman was monogamous but the man was not. He told me,

501
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: says Mary, that what he wanted was a woman who

502
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: was submissive, who he could slap on the ass in public,

503
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: and who would be crawling on the floor for him

504
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: when he got home. A spokesperson for Huberman denies this. Also,

505
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: I feel been this port spokesperson who was like doctor

506
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: Huberman never said he wanted a woman who would be

507
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: crawling on the floor for him when he got home.

508
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: I am curious about the spokesperson because they're quoted so

509
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 2: many times in this article, and I mean, I don't

510
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: have the sense. I guess I don't really know how

511
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: big his operation is, but like, I kind of get

512
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: the sense that a lot of these guys don't have

513
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 2: like huge PR teams, So like, who is this spokesperson?

514
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: What were they doing before they woke up to find

515
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: themselves in this malstrom of.

516
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 3: Allegations to deny well.

517
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: Not responding in real time. I can tell you that

518
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: because the person who wrote this article for New York

519
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: mag says that they gave Humorman's team two days to

520
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: read the full thing and respond to any of the allegations,

521
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: and they basically like, this is what they got. So,

522
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: you know, curious to me too. So one other thing

523
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: to note about the way that he treats the women

524
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: is that he juggled them in this way that is

525
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: kind of weirdly almost impressive. Here's one passage. There was

526
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: a day in Texas when after Sarah left his hotel,

527
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: andrews up with Mary and texted Eve. They found days

528
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: in which he would text nearly identical pictures of himself

529
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: to two of them. At the same time, they realized

530
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: that the day before he had moved in with Sarah

531
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: and Berkeley, he had slept with Mary, and he also

532
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: had been with her in December twenty twenty three, the

533
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: weekend before Sarah caught him on the couch with a

534
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: sixth woman. They realized on March twenty first, twenty twenty one,

535
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: a day of admittedly impressive logistical jiu jitsu while Sarah

536
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: was in Berkeley, Andrew had flown Mary from Texas to

537
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: La to stay with them into Panga. While Mary was

538
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: there visiting from thousands of miles away, he left her

539
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: with his dog, Costello. He drove to a coffee shop

540
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: where he met Eve. They had a serious talk about

541
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: their relationship. They thought they were in a good place.

542
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: He wanted to make it work. Phone died. He texted Mary,

543
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: who was waiting back at the place into Panga, and

544
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: later to Eve, thank you for being so next level

545
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: gorgeous and sexy. My god, this sounds stressful.

546
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: It does, and it truly is impressive to balance all

547
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: of this and make it all work. I think the

548
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: most shocking thing in this is that he, like he

549
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: flew this woman from Texas to La to be with him,

550
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: left her to watch his dog so he could go

551
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: meet up with another woman, did not have sex with

552
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: that woman, just had a very long, serious talk about

553
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: their relationship.

554
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen that episode of Seinfeld where George

555
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: wants to get He's dating two women and he's trying

556
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: to like get them both to like break it off

557
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: because it's too much work and neither of them will

558
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: do it, and so he's just trying to like balance

559
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: these two relationships, and he finds himself being like, oh,

560
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 1: I thought, like I'm seeing God's spell with one and

561
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: going he's skating with the other, And Jerry's like, which

562
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: is wish? And He's like does it matter? That's what

563
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: I feel like is going on here. It would be

564
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: so much easier to just be honest with all of them,

565
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: be like, listen, I'm dating all of you. Either you're

566
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: down with it or you're not. Like, the maintaining the

567
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: deception and the ruse sounds like it is so stressful

568
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: that I cannot imagine it is more satisfying than this

569
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: being like openly ethically non monogamous with all of them.

570
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.

571
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: He's a famous, smart, good looking, wealthy guy. If he

572
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: just wanted to have a bunch of open relationships with

573
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: hot women, he could probably accomplish that, right.

574
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: I think so. But that's what I'm saying, Like, I

575
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: don't I think that he could have that if you

576
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: wanted that easily. I don't think he wants that, don't.

577
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: I don't think it's about that. I think that it's

578
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: about control and feeling like I am a I am

579
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: like an optimized, smart guy who was able to stay

580
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: one step ahead of all of these women, which I

581
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: know he fucking wasn't, but like, I think that's part

582
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: of it. I think the control of the deception is

583
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,959
Speaker 1: part of it, because he could easily have that if

584
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: you wanted that. I also think, like, and this just

585
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: just like what I've seen from being in relationships. I

586
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: do think there's a kind of person who likes the

587
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: idea of having open relationships with people where everybody is

588
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: on the up and up and knows what's going on,

589
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: while simultaneously liking the idea of like settling down, starting

590
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: a family, doing IVF. Like he wouldn't be the first

591
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: person who maybe has conflicted desires at the same time.

592
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: Like that, that's not like difficult for me to imagine.

593
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. And you know, and

594
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: in his mind, he's smart enough to have it all, right,

595
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: Like yeah, the idea that we all have conflicting desires

596
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: one a lot of things, but have to make trade

597
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: offs because you can't have it all. It is seductive

598
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: to think that maybe you could have it all, all

599
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: you need to do is be sufficiently good at lying.

600
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like again, I think this is all part

601
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: of his the ethos that he preaches that you can

602
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: hack yourself. There's some sort of like way to gamify life.

603
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: In this way, you can gamify life that you can

604
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: have a series of fulfilling sexual and romantic relationships with

605
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of women and also settle down and have

606
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: that woman be monogamous to you and like have your kid.

607
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 1: I think that he's I think that I don't think

608
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: that the way that he is treating these women is

609
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: completely removed from the ethos that he preaches on the show.

610
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: I think they are connected and that is why. And

611
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: it's interesting to dive into how these women do say

612
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: that he showed up. So these women all found out

613
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: about each other through Instagram, which again I don't want

614
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: to sound like I'm giving romantic advice, but some advice

615
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: I do have is that if you are someone who

616
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: is like live and foul, I guess I'll say you

617
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: can't have Instagram. If you are someone who is like

618
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 1: like doing something in a relationship that you know you're

619
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: not supposed to be doing, you can't have an iPad.

620
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: You can't have it, you can't have Instagram. You need

621
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: to be really careful about how you show up digitally.

622
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: Because that's how they get you.

623
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: Wait, you can't have an iPad if you are.

624
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: A serial cheeter iPads Like you know, you're texting on

625
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: your phone, some setting is trip that you forgot about

626
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: and there's now it's on the iPad, but back at

627
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: your apartment. I'm just saying, like, if you are someone

628
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: who is showing up in relationships in a certain kind

629
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: of way and people don't and the other person is

630
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: not aware of that, and that is a deception that

631
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: you are trying to like juggle and maintain. Technology is

632
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: something you have to be extra special care full about,

633
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: and it sounds like he was not extra special careful

634
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: about it.

635
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: Listeners, thank you for joining us on how to cover

636
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: your tracks with Bridget Todd.

637
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: I mean this is just like it's twenty twenty four.

638
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: If you're gonna be if you're gonna be doing it.

639
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: Like also, Huberman, I feel like no one is better

640
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: at navigating Instagram than women, right, Like I have told

641
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: my friends like, oh, I want to find so and

642
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: so They've got them pulled up in a minute. They're like,

643
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: here he is, Here's everybody he's ever known, here's everything

644
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: about him. He went to Cabo last week, like, here's

645
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: his aunt, Like, I think that Huberman thought he was

646
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: smarter than all of these women. And nobody is smarter

647
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: than a group of like confident, poised, self assured women

648
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: who are good at Instagram. Nobody is smarter, Like, I

649
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: don't care how many degrees you have. I don't care

650
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: if you're at Stanford. You are not smarter than a

651
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: group of women who have Instagram.

652
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: Not gonna argue. I feel like a little intimidated.

653
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: Frankly, yeah, I'll find out such about you, Mike, you

654
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: better watch out. So basically, one of these women noticed

655
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: that another woman was like constantly watching her Instagram story

656
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: but never commenting and just like lurking. She realized that

657
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: this woman also was followed by doctor Huberman, and so

658
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: eventually she just DM her and said, is there anything

659
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: that you'd rather ask me directly? Which I think that

660
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: is such a baller move and I just think it

661
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: goes to show like he tried to put all this

662
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: like sexist, misogynistic junk in these women's heads to keep

663
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: them thinking that like all of the other women were

664
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: just like jealous stalkers, and it didn't work. These women

665
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: all join a group chat together they start comparing timelines.

666
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: That's when they realized always playing all of us. But

667
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: piece actually ends on kind of a sweet note. These

668
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 1: women all become friends. They have a very active group chat,

669
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: which again it just goes to show like, if you're

670
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: gonna pull this shit, don't pull it with a bunch

671
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: of smart, confident women. They'll just get to the bottom

672
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: of it together and join forces and then like you

673
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: will be a forever running joke in their group chat forever,

674
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: the women in they have they have this active group

675
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: chat to this day. They send pictures of each other's

676
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: pets to each other and they use the reply that

677
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: they say that Andrew would use whenever they would send

678
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: him racy picts, which is.

679
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 2: Mmmmm yeah, it's The article does end in a really

680
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: surprising way. It's like this group of women became friends

681
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: and they're all doing fine, which I think makes this

682
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: story a little bit different than some others where it's

683
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: like powerful influential man, uh you know, has problems with women.

684
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: Right when those stories break, often there's some kind of

685
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: like allegations of abuse of some kind, or there's like

686
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: a lawsuit of some kind. It doesn't sound like these

687
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: women are seeking any kind of like restitution or really anything.

688
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: There. It just seems like they were more than happy

689
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 3: to talk this reporter.

690
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: And that's something that I want to talk about because

691
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: if I were to say the thing that the so

692
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: one of this article, I think these women are trying

693
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: to say, this person that millions of people have held

694
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: up as a guru, the values that he preaches on

695
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: the show are not the values that he lives by

696
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: in his actual life. Like I would say that it's

697
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: a bit subtle, but I think that's the so. What

698
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: of the inclusion of all of these details about his

699
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: romantic life is that humanman is somebody who preaches a

700
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: really specific like life routine and mindset built around personal

701
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: discipline and being really mindful of all the different kinds

702
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: of things that you led into your life that spike dopamine,

703
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: from coffee to booze.

704
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: Like.

705
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: The piece points out that he seems to show disdain

706
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: for anybody who drinks even a small amount, but in

707
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: his personal life, he's maybe not practicing a lot of

708
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: the kind of personal discipline around things that spike his dopamine,

709
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: in this case, relationships. Like one of the women says

710
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: that he told her that he thought he was a

711
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: love addict. So you have this guru preaching and ethos

712
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: around being minds about what you led into your physical orbit,

713
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: while also like binging on women and relationships and not

714
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: being forthcoming about it. That kind of makes his whole

715
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: body of advice, I guess it kind of calls it

716
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: into question.

717
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean we can even zoom out another

718
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: level from Huberman in particular to just like gurus in general.

719
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 2: It's a pretty well worn trope, almost a cliche that

720
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: you know, some guru who has the answer, who is

721
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: preaching restraint and control is sleeping with a bunch of

722
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 2: women who follow his advice.

723
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: Tail as old as time. So this is how he's

724
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: alleged to have treated women that he is romantically and

725
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: sexually involved with in the piece. But and this is

726
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: something I don't feel like has gotten enough attention. This

727
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: kind of casual lack of respect for women seems to

728
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: bleed over into his professional life as well. There is

729
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: this anecdote where he reached out to a woman scientist

730
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: about collaborating together. They set a time to meetman doesn't

731
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: show this is a real theme in the piece. Huberman

732
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: like making plans with men and women and then just

733
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: flaking and people saying like he's totally unreliable. So the

734
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: scientist emails him after he cancels on their time to

735
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: meet and says, well, I guess you're not serious about

736
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: collaborating together, which again I respect that. Like if somebody

737
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: last minute canceling on somebody who was like pretty busy

738
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: and pretty like has a pretty full schedule, I could

739
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 1: understand what she was like, Yeah, I guess you don't

740
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: really feel seriously about working together. Andrew Cuberman clearly felt

741
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: some type of a way about this rather than just

742
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 1: let it go. He and another male scientist, Stanford trained

743
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: psychiatrist Paul Conti, did an episode of Huberman's podcast about

744
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: aggressive Drive in which Huberman makes this woman whose time

745
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: he wasted the poster child for toxic aggression in the workplace.

746
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,479
Speaker 1: He tells the story of her emailing him and saying

747
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: I guess you aren't serious about working together and says

748
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: so to me. Huberman said on the podcast that seems

749
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: like an example of somebody who has a well strong

750
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 1: aggressive drive and when disappointed lashes back or as passive.

751
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: There's some way in which this person doesn't feel good enough,

752
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: no matter what this person has achieved. So then there

753
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: is a sense of the need and right to over control. Sure,

754
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: said Huberman. So now we're going to work together, right,

755
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: So I'm exerting significant control over you, right, and then

756
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: maybe he's not aware of it. In this case, Andrew

757
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 1: said it was a she. So this woman, explained Kanti,

758
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: based entirely on Andrew's description of two emails, had allowed

759
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: her unhealthy quote excess aggression to be eclipsing the generative drive.

760
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 1: She required that Andrew bowed down before her in service

761
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: of the ego because she did not feel good about herself.

762
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: This conversation extends for an extraordinary nine minutes, both men

763
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: egging each other on diagnoses after diagnoses salient, Perhaps for

764
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: reasons other than those that you identify, we learned that

765
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: this woman lacks great attitude, generative drive, and happiness. She

766
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: suffers from envy, low pleasure drive, and general unhappiness. It

767
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: would appear at a distance to be an elaborate fantasy

768
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: of an insane woman built upon a single behavior. At

769
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: some point in time, a woman decided she did not

770
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: want to work with a man who didn't show up, Like,

771
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: where does this dude? Get off.

772
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: It's worth pointing out following that story that his expertise

773
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: is in vision, right, Like he's a neuroscience about vision,

774
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 2: So talking about drives like the pleasure drive, aggressive drive,

775
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: these are not areas of his expertise, and you know,

776
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: they're actually closer to my expertise. And a lot of

777
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: that stuff is is often like just so stories, right,

778
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of sounds like a common sense idea.

779
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: You make up a story that fits this concept that

780
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: you've introduced, so yeah, it all makes sense.

781
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the just so story is that can you

782
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: believe a woman talk to me like that? Andrew Huberman, Like,

783
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: I think this guy got that email from this woman scientist,

784
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: and I think it stung more because it came from

785
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: a woman, and he's somebody who doesn't respect women, so

786
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: he had to like use his massive platform to speculate

787
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: on her like low pleasure drive and stuff and how

788
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: she like needed him to sacrifice his ego and crawl

789
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: to her and blah blah blah down Like it really

790
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: is so misogynistic and sexist, and I think it really

791
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: feeds back into the way that these women were saying

792
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: that he treated them as.

793
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: Well I'm also not confident that this colleague exists or

794
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: that any of that actually happened. I mean, we have

795
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: no evidence that it did other than him saying so.

796
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: It feels very much like a story that somebody might make.

797
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: Up to make that to like prop themselves up and

798
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: talk about how everybody else is less than him. At

799
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: all those less thans happen to be women.

800
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: It fits more.

801
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

802
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: Another big piece of this that I want to make

803
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: sure is not overshadowed, because his piece is largely, but

804
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: not entirely about his romantic issues, is how his character

805
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: reflects on the work that he puts out on the podcast,

806
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: which is maybe not great. The New York mag piece

807
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: gets into this writing Huberman's specialty lies in a narrow

808
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: field vision system wiring. How comfortable one feels with the

809
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 1: science propagated on huberman Lab depends entirely on how much

810
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: leeway one is willing to give a man who expounds

811
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: for multiple hours a week on subjects while outside of

812
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: his area of expertise. His detractors note that Huberman extrapolates

813
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: wildly from lib animal studies posit certainty where there is

814
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: ambiguity and stumbles when he veers too far from his

815
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: narrow realm of study, but even they will tend to

816
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: admit that the podcast is an expansive, free, or as

817
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: he puts, at zero cost compendium of human knowledge. There

818
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: are quack guests, but these are greatly outnumbered by profound, complex, patient,

819
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 1: and often moving descriptions of biological process. So this entire

820
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: thing has really shined a light on his financial relationship

821
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 1: with supplement companies, namely Athletic Greens which is now called

822
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: ag One, which is a big sponsor of his podcast.

823
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: He is also their scientific advisor. I don't know what

824
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 1: that means, Mike, do you have any idea.

825
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a reasonable thing for people to be a

826
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: you know, scientific advisor to this or that.

827
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: I'm not going to dig in for that. That's reasonable,

828
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: I mean fair.

829
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 2: There is a bit of a potential conflict of interest,

830
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: like when he promotes the product on the show, do

831
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 2: his listeners know that if they decide to buy it

832
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: gets into some more ethical gray area there, But just

833
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 2: being a scientific advisor, that's a reasonable thing.

834
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Well we'll get into that, so I should say

835
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: big caveat I'm a podcaster. If you listen to this podcast,

836
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: we obviously.

837
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: You know we do edg we do ads, We do ads.

838
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: Nobody would accuse us of not do big ass. So

839
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: I'm not really in a position where I can fault

840
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: people for taking money to keep the good folks who

841
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: help make their show paid and like keep the show going. However,

842
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: if you are a scientist and your entire show is

843
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: about your expertise as a scientist, I do think there

844
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: was a different thing where maybe there should be a

845
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: little bit more scrutiny over exactly what you were saying,

846
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: like how you were using your position as a scientist

847
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: to talk things, especially something that is maybe a bunk product.

848
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: AG one is kind of maybe a not so good product,

849
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: and that it makes a lot of big claims that

850
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: have dubious backing. Here's what the New mag article says

851
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: about Huberman's relationship with AG One. On every episode of

852
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: his Zero Cost podcast, Huberman gives a lengthy endorsement of

853
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: a powder formerly known as Athletic Greens, now known as

854
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: AG one. It's one thing to hear Athletic Greens, promoted

855
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: by Joe Rogan. It is perhaps another to hear someone

856
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: who sells himself as a Stanford University scientist just back

857
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: from the lab, proclaim that this seventy nine dollars a

858
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: month powder quote covers all your foundational nutritional needs. In

859
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: an industry not known for its integrity, ag one is,

860
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: according to writer and professional debunker Derek Burrs, one of

861
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: the most egregious players in the space. So, I will say,

862
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 1: as a podcaster, one of my pet peeves is podcasters

863
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: who are like, we make this podcast for free. No,

864
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: if you have ads, you really don't like. If you

865
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: are a podcaster who supports your work via ads, listeners

866
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,439
Speaker 1: are not listening to that show for free. They are

867
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: kind of paying for it via their attention with the ads.

868
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: And so I I really hate that claim that, like,

869
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: it's a free podcast, I'm making this content for you

870
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: for free. If you have ads, you're really not. That's

871
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: really just not true.

872
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a good system, right. The listeners don't

873
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: have to pay money. The ads support the show, you know,

874
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 2: they pay us a small amount to make the show.

875
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: I feel like listeners probably, I feel like there are

876
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: listeners out there who maybe don't think it's a great system.

877
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: People are always like I hate your.

878
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 3: Ads, fair but you know they you know, the ads them.

879
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: I don't know.

880
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: I also don't love listening to ads, but it's kind

881
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 2: of the system we got. There's some others out there

882
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: love to you know, talk more about it, but I

883
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: guess the point I'm trying to make is that ads

884
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 2: aren't inherently harmful. But where it does get dubious is

885
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 2: when it's these health supplements that are sold as having

886
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,879
Speaker 2: like health properties that just really are not backed up

887
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: by evidence, and it really betrays a lack of concern

888
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: for listeners, I think, and as a scientist, for a

889
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: scientist to shill for nutritional supplements that do not have

890
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: a strong evidence backing, in fact, have a dubious, dubious

891
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: evidence behind them. And my understanding is that what's actually

892
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: in AG one is a proprietary blend, so people don't

893
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: even know. But for a scientist to back that, it

894
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: casts a doubt over everything else they say, or at

895
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: least it should, right, Like, apparently that is the standard

896
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: of evidence that they need to support a claim, right,

897
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: and so that same standard does that same low standard

898
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: of evidence apply to all of the scientific claims that

899
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: he's making on his show?

900
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 3: One would assume it probably does.

901
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, it just really I personally think that a

902
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 2: scientist to promote dubious nutritional supplements just undercuts everything else

903
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 2: they might have to say about any other topic.

904
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: Well, one of my favorite science podcasters, Wendy Zuckerman of

905
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 1: the Science Versus podcast, which I love the piece, quotes

906
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: a time when she called Huberman out on this. She

907
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: pointed out that her podcast would never endorse a product

908
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 1: with such a dubious science behind it, and Huberman said,

909
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: that's the good news about podcasts. People can choose which

910
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: podcast they want to listen to.

911
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes it clear right there, makes it

912
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: crystal clear how he sees this. His scientific integrity was

913
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: being publicly called into question, which is like the worst

914
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: thing that could happen to a scientist. And he responds

915
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 2: by pointing to the popularity of his podcast. Right, he

916
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: doesn't even address it. He's just like, well, you know,

917
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,879
Speaker 2: people like my show, so I guess that makes it right.

918
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, it's like being like, you know

919
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: what it is, Wendy, I'm trying to get paid, so

920
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: I should say I don't know a ton personally about

921
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: ag Well, I read a couple of really good articles

922
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: that make a lot of good points about about AG

923
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: one we'll put in the show notes. One of them

924
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: is by Jonathan Jerry, that science communicator from McGill University

925
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 1: be quoted earlier that are really great Deep die of

926
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 1: will put in the show notes about how dubious AG

927
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: one is and the entire supplements industry is. You know,

928
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: it's pretty much unregulated, and you might be thinking, well,

929
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: supplements might not work, or they might not do what

930
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: they say they're going to do, but it couldn't hurt, right,

931
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: While using your credentials as a scientist to point people

932
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 1: who are looking for quick ways to optimize their health

933
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: down the road to supplements is not without risk, as

934
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: dietary supplements are not regulated as strictly as pharmaceutical drugs

935
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: and can routinely contain ingredients not listed on the bottle

936
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: or not contain the main ingredient listed at all, which

937
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: has been replaced by a cheaper look alike. Supplements derived

938
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: by herbs can cause all sorts of harm, including toxicity

939
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: to the liver. A recent paper highlights rising cases of

940
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: liver injury caused by these products.

941
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: And even outside of liver injury or the supplements being

942
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: toxic in some way, which hopefully is pretty rare. I

943
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: think much more commonly people get harmed by thinking that

944
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 2: they are protecting themselves in some way when in fact

945
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 2: they're not. Right, Like, I think it's an idea that

946
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: by having a healthy immune system people will be protected

947
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: against COVID, which is true, but then I think that

948
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: can in a lot of cases show up where people

949
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 2: will take supplements that they think are super charging their

950
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: immune system in some way and then decline to get

951
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: the COVID vaccine, which is actually demonstrated conclusively by evidence

952
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 2: to reduce the chance of harm. So there's I think

953
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: there's a lot of opportunity cost that comes from this

954
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 2: widespread promotion of supplements that don't work.

955
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,439
Speaker 1: Yes, and like if you have eighty dollars a month

956
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: to spend toward a health intervention, if you're putting that

957
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: toward the thing that doesn't work over the thing that

958
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: maybe does work and has been demonstrated by science to work,

959
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: that is a problem. If he is a scientist is

960
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: encouraging you to do that. I do think that's a problem,

961
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: And I think especially in the podcast space, like as

962
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: a podcaster, you do have a different relationship to your audience,

963
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: you know. I think that, like it is an intimacy medium.

964
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: It is a medium where people are hearing you in

965
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: an intimate way in your earbuds, So listeners they might

966
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: really have a trust relationship with you. Like I think

967
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people really trust Huberman. Jerry, that science

968
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: communicator from McGill makes it really clear that a scientist

969
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: using the medium of podcasting to build trust in people,

970
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: the vast majority of whom are not scientists themselves, only

971
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: to lead them to a path of supplements that personally

972
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: enriched Andrew Huberman just really isn't cool. Like it's not

973
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: like we're talking about Joe Rogan, who also hawks ag one.

974
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: We're talking about a Stanford scientist. As Jerry writes, inside

975
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: the walls of academia, there are guardrails on a podcast. However,

976
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: anything goes, and the credibility of academia goes a long

977
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,439
Speaker 1: way to lend authority to supplement endorsements.

978
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's absolutely true. It's unfortunate.

979
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the piece by Jerry really is like

980
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: he basically is like I'm disappointed to see somebody who

981
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 1: is such a gifted science communicator and like does have

982
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: a very good body of work in his specific lane

983
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: kind of selling that short for a check from the

984
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: supplement industry that is so shady and so not transparent,

985
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: and using science to do that. So it's not like

986
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: these people are calling him a fraud. They're saying the opposite.

987
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: Because you are somebody who knows what they're doing and

988
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: is very gifted, it is that much more disappointing to

989
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: see you lowering yourself to this.

990
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

991
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I have not reviewed his work in any sort

992
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: of detail, but I looked through wors publishing. He's publishing

993
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 2: in like top tier journals like Nature and Neuroscience like this.

994
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 2: That's you don't get published there if you're doing bad work.

995
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 2: So clearly he's a talented scientist. Clearly he's very charismatic

996
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 2: and persuasive and able to speak to lots of people,

997
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,959
Speaker 2: And so it is disappointed to see somebody with those

998
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: talents just use it for personal enrichment at the expense

999
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: of the people who are trusting them.

1000
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: So there have been a lot of accusations that his

1001
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: podcast is full of pseudoscience, like he uses all the

1002
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: right kind of sciences sounding jargon for claims that are

1003
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: maybe dubiously backed up by science. I am not a scientist,

1004
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: so I don't really feel able to say. And Mike,

1005
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: as you were saying, like you have not actually like

1006
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: studied his body of work, right.

1007
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

1008
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: I just kind of reviewed where he was publishing, but

1009
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 2: I didn't click into anything because that's not an area

1010
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: that I really have the expertise to even evaluate.

1011
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: So let's hear from somebody who does have the expertise

1012
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: to evaluate, and that is doctor Andrea Love, an immunologist

1013
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: and a microbiologist who has been like she has been

1014
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: debunking Huberman's bad science for a long time on her substack.

1015
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: She is not a Johnny Come Lately who is jumping

1016
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 1: on the bandwagon. She has been here for a while.

1017
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: I get this, like folks should follow her substack and

1018
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: follow her on Twitter. I get the sense that she

1019
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: is somebody who has been like being like Huberman sucks.

1020
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: Huberman sucks for a long time, and now everybody is

1021
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: like finally on her side, and she's like, no, it

1022
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: is my time to shine. There is no better feeling,

1023
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 1: doctor Andrea Love. I hope you are like basking in

1024
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: this because when somebody when when when the general public

1025
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: finally crosses over and sees what you see? That's how

1026
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: I always felt about Ellen. By the way, I was

1027
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: an Ellen truther for a very long time. When the

1028
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: when the public finally got there, I was like, yes,

1029
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: let the hate flow through your vein.

1030
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 3: Man, I remember that.

1031
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 2: That was like, I can't remember your time when I

1032
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: saw you so happy?

1033
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1034
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 3: So.

1035
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: In a piece the Doctor Love wrote for Slay it

1036
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: called so should you Trust Andrew Huberman? She really breaks

1037
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: it down, she writes, in reality, his podcast is focused

1038
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: on pseudoscience. He often makes claims that appears scientific but

1039
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 1: lack evidence, plausibility, and validity. Pseudoscience presents unsubstantiated conclusions, but

1040
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: it can be incredibly hard to distinguish from conclusive evidence.

1041
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: It contains grains of truth, but those grains of truth

1042
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: are exaggerated beyond the point of usefulness, even so far

1043
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: as to lead away from the truth. Huberman fills his

1044
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: podcast with confident displays of pseudoscience, top with the appeal

1045
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: to authority. He garners by regularly repeating his academic credentials

1046
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 1: to gain your trust.

1047
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 2: Wow, that sounds so similar to the way we talk

1048
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 2: about conspiracy theories.

1049
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: I would think of the same thing. So she basically

1050
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: accuses Huberman of not carefully or fully citing studies and

1051
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: data to make prescriptive recommendations for lifestyle changes. He cherry

1052
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: picks weak or irrelevant studies while discarding large and more

1053
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: robust studies that demonstrate something different. If you're not conducting

1054
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: research or regularly dissecting scientific studies, this might not be obvious,

1055
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: but to scientists it is. And that's something else that

1056
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: I think is interesting here is that I bet that

1057
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: listening to his show or hearing somebody parrot what he says,

1058
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: if you are a scientist or a doctor, is probably

1059
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: frustrating as hell. When I was prepping for this episode,

1060
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: one of the questions I had was how do other

1061
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: neuroscientists feel about his work and his podcasts? And there

1062
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: are a lot of them on Reddit saying that, like, oh,

1063
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: people will hear one kind of not totally correct thing

1064
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: on his podcast and then try to tell her incorrectly

1065
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: about her own job in a way that conveys authority

1066
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: because they heard it on Huberman's podcast, Like that has

1067
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: to be so frustrating.

1068
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that technique of cherry picking results from

1069
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,479
Speaker 2: small studies that support the conclusion you're trying to make

1070
00:57:53,800 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: while disregarding wider bodies of evidence that support a different conclusion. Again,

1071
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 2: tail as old as time. It's a super common tactic,

1072
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: like if you aren't concerned with the balance of evidence,

1073
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 2: which is what science is supposed to be looking at

1074
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 2: to try to reach consensus on things. But if you

1075
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: aren't concerned about that and you just want to like

1076
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: cherry pick some weird result that supports whatever theory you've got,

1077
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: this sky's the limit on whatever you might want to

1078
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 2: find and say.

1079
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: Length Wise, this episode is actually starting to feel a

1080
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: bit like a Huberman Lab episode, and that it's getting

1081
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: a little bit long. I have a ton more to say,

1082
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Speaker 1: so let's cut here and this will be a two parter,

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Speaker 1: So come back next week for the conclusion of what

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00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: exactly is going on with Andrew Huberman. If you're looking

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00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: for ways to support the show, check out our mark

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00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: store at tangoti dot com. Flash store got a story

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00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech? I just want to

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00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: say hi, we just said hello at tangodi dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at teng

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Speaker 1: goody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet

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00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: was created by me bridget Tood. It's a production of

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00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative edited by Joey Pat Jonathan Strickland

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00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

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00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almada is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

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00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 1: bridget Tood. If you want to help us grow, rate

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00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.