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Speaker 1: In recording our coverage of John Juca's case, we realized

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Speaker 1: that there are simply too many twists and turns for

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Speaker 1: one episode, so we split this episode in two and

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Speaker 1: are releasing both at the same time. On October eleventh,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three, three groups of college kids, one

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Speaker 1: from Long Island, another from Brooklyn, as well as New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: ran into one another at a bar on the upper

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Speaker 1: East side of Manhattan. A mutual friend among them, Angel DiPietro,

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Speaker 1: New Brooklyn night Albert Cleary, as well as her Fairfield

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Speaker 1: University classmate Mark Fisher, a football player from New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: When the knight started to wind down and all of

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Speaker 1: the trains of Long Island and New Jersey had stopped running,

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Speaker 1: Albert Cleary's friend, twenty year old John Juca, offered up

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Speaker 1: his house in Flatbush, Brooklyn for an after party at

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Speaker 1: a place to crash. A few of John and Albert's

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Speaker 1: friends joined, including a neighborhood tough guy named Antonio Russo.

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Speaker 1: Sometime before six am, Angel and Albert walked to his

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Speaker 1: nearby house. Since Angel was the only person Mark Fisher knew,

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Speaker 1: he left to find his way over to Albert's with

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Speaker 1: Antonio Russo and soon ended up fatally shot without his

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Speaker 1: wallet on the driveway across from Albert Cleary's house, a

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Speaker 1: blanket from John's house at its feet. In the immediate aftermath,

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Speaker 1: Antonio Russo cut his dreadlocks and absconded to California. A

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Speaker 1: police investigation revealed that other voices at a car door

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Speaker 1: were heard before the gunshots. Albert and Angel denied any knowledge,

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Speaker 1: and soon statements were made that alleged that John Juca

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Speaker 1: was involved. The motivations and level of involvement buried. But

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Speaker 1: with this many witnesses placing blame on John. There had

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Speaker 1: to be something to it. But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wronful conviction. Today, we have a story

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Speaker 1: that was front page news all over New York City

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Speaker 1: when it happened, with flaring headlines, salacious headlines about want

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Speaker 1: to be Brooklyn gangsters who allegedly conspired at an after

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Speaker 1: party to kill a suburban college football star who just

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Speaker 1: happened to be in their midst, when in fact, there

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Speaker 1: were no gangsters, only a group of friends, and the

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Speaker 1: murder was not a group effort at all. The only

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Speaker 1: group effort here took the form of multiple conflicting false

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Speaker 1: statements against a member of that group, John Juka, and

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Speaker 1: John is calling in from prison in upstate New York

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Speaker 1: right now. I'm sorry you're here under these circumstances, but

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Speaker 1: we're very honored to have you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: The only good news in this whole, miserable story is

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Speaker 1: that his attorney is Mark Bedow, and Mark is one

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Speaker 1: of the most respected criminal defense attorneys in the New

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Speaker 1: York area and beyond. Mark, Welcome to Rofel Conviction. Glad

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Speaker 1: to be here. Thanks for having me and Mark. Why

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Speaker 1: was this such a high profile case?

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Speaker 3: This was a big one at the time. I was

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Speaker 3: a prosecutor in Manhattan and I remember it in real time,

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Speaker 3: just reading tabloids on the subway going to work. It

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Speaker 3: was in the fall of two thousand and it felt

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Speaker 3: like there was an update on this flawed investigation every day.

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Speaker 3: It was the grid kid murder case, because you had

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Speaker 3: a situation where the victim was the all American son

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Speaker 3: that any parent wish they had as a child. Mark

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Speaker 3: Fisher was a nineteen year old, good looking college football

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Speaker 3: player from New Jersey who went to Brooklyn for the

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Speaker 3: first time in his life, and unfortunately he ended up

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Speaker 3: dead on the street, and certainly that's the kind of

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Speaker 3: thing that is going to feed the tabloids and get

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Speaker 3: the public attention. So the grid Kid murder case became

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Speaker 3: sensational from day one, and.

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Speaker 1: That moniker actually referred to the admitted grid Kid killer,

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Speaker 1: John's co defendant, Antonio Russo. But somehow John's face was

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Speaker 1: also plastered on the front page of those tabloids as

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Speaker 1: if he was some sort of criminal mastermind or co

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Speaker 1: conspirator to somehow actually involved. The prosecution never actually decided

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Speaker 1: on any one theory. They just put all this stuff

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Speaker 1: out there and the press ate it up, and of

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Speaker 1: course this media firestorm polluted the jury pool. Now, don't

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Speaker 1: forget the HBO series The Sopranos was an absolute cultural

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Speaker 1: phenomenon at this time. It's the only thing people were

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Speaker 1: talking about it. So this story of the death of

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Speaker 1: a promising suburban kid allegedly at the hands of these

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Speaker 1: wannabe mafia city kids was like it was the imperfect storm.

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Speaker 1: It just captured everybody's imaginations.

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Speaker 3: By the time his trial came around, you actually had

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Speaker 3: the prosecutor comparing him to Tony Soprano and talking about

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Speaker 3: ordering hits to build up street credibility for a non

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Speaker 3: existent gang, which in fact was just a bunch of

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Speaker 3: knucklehead teenagers in Brooklyn calling themselves names.

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Speaker 1: And this alleged gang was called the Ghetto Mafia. Right, So, John,

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Speaker 1: what exactly was the Ghetto Mafia?

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Speaker 2: Oh? My god, it was a bunch of kids hanging out.

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Speaker 2: We had some people who who used to hang out

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Speaker 2: with us who never even heard of that name, some

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Speaker 2: people who considered it a joke, and there were other

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Speaker 2: people who didn't. One thing was never was an actual gang.

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Speaker 3: John was just a regular, you know, nineteen year old

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Speaker 3: Brooklyn kid.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about your life before all of this, John,

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Speaker 1: You grew up in Flatbush, Brooklyn. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's like a little enclave in flat Bush called Prospect

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Speaker 2: Park South. I guess you could say I grew up

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Speaker 2: in a regular, middle class upbringing. First, I went to

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Speaker 2: public school PS one thirty nine. Then I went to

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Speaker 2: Catholic school around third grade when my mother met my stepfather.

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Speaker 1: So your parents broke up when you were.

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Speaker 2: Young, Yes, when I was five years old my stepfather,

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Speaker 2: but considered him like my father. Also, I didn't look

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Speaker 2: at it as a negative thing. Really, my real father

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Speaker 2: went on to get married again, and that woman who

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Speaker 2: he married already had kids, so he had a family

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Speaker 2: over there too, and I considered them family also. I

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Speaker 2: looked at it as I had two fathers, like two

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Speaker 2: men in my life who loved me and wanted to

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Speaker 2: see me succeed and support me.

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Speaker 1: Then your biological father ended up suffering a stroke when

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Speaker 1: you were nineteen, which ended up having relevance in this case.

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Speaker 1: But at that time, like you said, both he and

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Speaker 1: your stepdad were supportive of you. You were trying to

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Speaker 1: succeed as an actor and actually got some work as

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Speaker 1: a teenager.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I was on School of Rock. I got to

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Speaker 2: meet Jack Black, the guys from Law and Order. I

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Speaker 2: was on Lawn Order like ten times. I played a

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Speaker 2: dead kid on Law and Order. I remember one funny

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Speaker 2: story that I'm on Law and Order and I'm the

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Speaker 2: dead kids. I'm laying on the pavement and I have

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Speaker 2: fake blood all over my head and everything, and I

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Speaker 2: remember the two actors, Jerry or Back and the other one,

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Speaker 2: the two main.

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Speaker 1: Cops, Jerry or Back and Chris nods.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they have to kneel down and search my pockets.

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Speaker 2: I have a pair of keys that they're supposed to

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Speaker 2: take out of my pockets. And so Jerry Orban kneels

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Speaker 2: down and he kneels right on the keys and he's

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Speaker 2: son of a bitch and they're like caught. And then

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Speaker 2: they shoot it like four, five, six, seven times. They

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Speaker 2: keep trying to shoot it. Things keep going wrong. And

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Speaker 2: then I had smoked some weed before I went. I

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Speaker 2: think I was like six seventeen years old, and this

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Speaker 2: is not part of script, and he goes it smells

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Speaker 2: like marijuana, and they're like, cut and what are you

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Speaker 2: talking about. He's like, I don't know, it smells like marijuana.

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Speaker 2: And my stepfather's looking at me like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to kill you.

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Speaker 1: That's incredible, and Jerry or back rest in peace. I

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Speaker 1: can just picture it in my mind right now. And

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Speaker 1: your stepfather was there too, So it sounds like you

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Speaker 1: had this great sort of blended Brady bunch sort of

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Speaker 1: a family situation. And can you tell us about the

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Speaker 1: woman at the center of it. And I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: your mom, Doreen, And I know her from rallies and

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Speaker 1: events and calls and texts, and she's just a pillar

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Speaker 1: of strength and somebody I admire greatly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but she was a recogd stay at home mom.

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Speaker 2: She was more I guess you could say, liberal minded.

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Speaker 2: Like my house was the house where a lot of

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Speaker 2: kids from the neighborood used to come and she used

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Speaker 2: to feed them, or we used to play basketball in

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Speaker 2: the backyard or whatever. She always told me that law

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Speaker 2: enforcement were the good guy. I remember this growing up.

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Speaker 2: She was encouraging me to go to John Jay, encouraging

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Speaker 2: me to become a comp Her brother is a correctional

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Speaker 2: my uncle Eddie.

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Speaker 1: That's another crazy irony about your story, which is that

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Speaker 1: while you were pursuing an acting career, you were also

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Speaker 1: studying criminal justice at John Jay College.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and what you learn about the criminal justice system

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Speaker 2: in school is just one hundred and eighty degrees from

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Speaker 2: the reality of the criminal justice system. They say that

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Speaker 2: you have all these rights, and they're not going to

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Speaker 2: arrest people unless this standard is mad, and then they

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Speaker 2: don't get convicted unless this standard is met, and on

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Speaker 2: and just none of that is true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you saw those standards go out the window pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly when the false statements that were used to obtain

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Speaker 1: your arrest, warrant and conviction didn't even form a cohesive narrative. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the people who gave false testimony against you

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Speaker 1: was your girlfriend at the time, Lauren Calciano. Now we're

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Speaker 1: going to read from her recantation later. But you two

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Speaker 1: had started dating in high school, right.

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Speaker 2: She was my first love. I was with hers since

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Speaker 2: I was about I don't know, fifteen or sixteen. I

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Speaker 2: thought I wanted to get married and everything. We were young.

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Speaker 2: Why used to practically live at her house sometimes I

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Speaker 2: knew her whole family.

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Speaker 1: You ended up hiring her family's attorney, Sam Gregory, who

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Speaker 1: had previously represented her father, sal Cassiano.

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Speaker 2: He was head of the events in the World Trade Center.

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Speaker 2: He went to federal prisons because the World Trade Center

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Speaker 2: got robbed. They said it was about four million Americans,

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Speaker 2: So this is in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes, for whatever her father's mistakes were, the DA was

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Speaker 1: eventually able to use her father's situation, among other things,

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Speaker 1: in order to coerce her false testimony against you. They

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Speaker 1: were also able to coerce or incentivize your friend Albert

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Speaker 1: Cleary as well, who was arguably closer to this incident

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Speaker 1: than you were. Albert's mother, Susan Cleary, was the vice

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Speaker 1: president of the King's County GOP Executive Committee, the group

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn that can authorize what is known as a

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Speaker 1: Wilson pacula, which allows a candidate from another party to

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Speaker 1: run on that party's ticket, and it can be used

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Speaker 1: in order to run unopposed or in the case when

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Speaker 1: a candidate loses party's primary election. Whether or not that

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Speaker 1: was a bargaining ship used to keep her son's name

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Speaker 1: out of the investigation, that's something we'll never know.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people say the system is broken. I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's broken. I think it's working exactly how

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Speaker 2: they intended it to work, as like a battering ram

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Speaker 2: for the rich and powerful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as we've seen in cases like yours, the

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Speaker 1: prosecutor's office will use high profile cases for publicity with

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Speaker 1: the hope of reaping those benefits come election time. Now,

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and three, the DA was Charles

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Speaker 1: Joe Hines who was facing a primary challenge in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five, and wouldn't you know that he stretched

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Speaker 1: out this investigation and prosecution. You guessed it to occur

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Speaker 1: right before the election. He ended up winning both the

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Speaker 1: primary and the general. Now, anyone who's familiar with our

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Speaker 1: podcast is familiar with the problems in Brooklyn during the

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Speaker 1: Heinz era. Nineteen ninety to twenty thirteen is a really

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Speaker 1: dark period for criminal justice in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: Hines was a political creature of the first order. That

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Speaker 3: office back then was known as the poster child for

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Speaker 3: wrongful convictions. Maybe in the last ten or fifteen years

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Speaker 3: when people have really been paying attention to the problem

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Speaker 3: of wrongful convictions, but I think a lot of the

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Speaker 3: momentum on this really started when people like Ken Thompson

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Speaker 3: were running against Hines ten years ago and exposing bad

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Speaker 3: case after bad case that was coming out of the

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Speaker 3: Hines Brooklyn DA's office. And this is exhibit A. John

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Speaker 3: Juka to this day is exhibit A.

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Speaker 1: And many of the people who worked under Hines, who

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Speaker 1: were responsible and complicit and so many of the wrongful

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Speaker 1: convictions of that era are still there today. And those

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Speaker 1: who have moved on to private practice or even careers

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Speaker 1: in media, like the trial prosecutor in this case, Anna

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Speaker 1: Sega Nicklazzi. Those former heinz Adas, their reputations in public

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Speaker 1: fates are arguably tied to the political fate of the

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn DA's office.

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Speaker 3: In terms of the graduates of the Hines DA's office.

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Speaker 3: This trial prosecutor was their superstar and the biggest red

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Speaker 3: flag in a case like this when a trial prosecutor

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Speaker 3: markets themselves as I'm a homicide DA and I've never

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Speaker 3: lost a case. I have a perfect record and.

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Speaker 2: Her trial record, let me tell you something, if you

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Speaker 2: want thirty six a poker in a row, you're cheating.

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Speaker 3: And after John's conviction, you know all this marketing. This

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Speaker 3: is a successful DA. She's on TV today as an

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Speaker 3: expert on everything that's right in criminal justice, and it

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Speaker 3: would have been humiliating for the Brooklyn DA to take

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Speaker 3: her down. For years after this conviction, John's was her

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Speaker 3: number one marketing pitch on her greatest hits, and after

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Speaker 3: two post conviction hearings and litigation and covered extensively in

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Speaker 3: the media, when one judge of the New York Court

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Speaker 3: of Appeals ripped the prosecutor a new one and basically

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Speaker 3: all but called her corrupt and deliberately violating his rights,

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Speaker 3: all the references to John's heroic conviction have been scrubbed

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Speaker 3: from the record, which makes you wonder if you're proud

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Speaker 3: of this conviction and proud of what you've done. Why

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Speaker 3: you would do that?

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Speaker 1: Why would anyone be proud of what should be It

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Speaker 1: really should be illegal, sending an innocent man to prison

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Speaker 1: and effectively compounding the tragic loss of another young man's life.

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Speaker 1: So let's get to the incident, the crux of everything

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Speaker 1: we're discussing. Of course, I'm referring to the awful night

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Speaker 1: of October eleventh into the twelfth of two thousand and three.

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Speaker 3: It was Columbus Day weekend. Mark Fisher, who went to

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Speaker 3: Fairfield University in Connecticut and some of his friends went

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Speaker 3: to the city and partied. John Juca and his friend

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Speaker 3: Albert Cleary and a few others also went to the city,

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Speaker 3: and the groups ended up being connected through a very

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Speaker 3: interesting person in this sordid process named Angel DiPietro, who

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Speaker 3: was a college classmate and theoretically friend of Mark Fisher,

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Speaker 3: who also was friendly with Albert Cleary.

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Speaker 1: Angel Dipietro's father was a prominent Long Island defense attorney

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Speaker 1: as well. So you had the Brooklyn contingent, which was

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Speaker 1: John Albert Cleary, and two more neighborhood friends, Angel di

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Speaker 1: Pietro and her friend Meredith Denahan from Long Island and

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Speaker 1: Mark Fisher who had come in from New Jersey, and

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Speaker 1: they met at a bar on the Upper eastide of Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: which at the time was known to college kids for

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Speaker 1: being the home of many bars that had pretty loose

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Speaker 1: id policies. Right and so now it was getting late

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Speaker 1: and the Long Island and New Jersey kids had to

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Speaker 1: figure out a way home on the train.

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Speaker 2: The last train left, the next one didn't leave till

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Speaker 2: sometime the next morning, so they were stranded. So I

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Speaker 2: opened my house to them. In the cab, it was me, Albert,

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Speaker 2: Mary Mark, and Angel. Me and Albert paid for the cab.

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Speaker 2: And then after we got there, a few more people

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Speaker 2: showed up. I'm pretty sure it was Tommy. Jimmy, my

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Speaker 2: brother was home, and then Antonio Russo.

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Speaker 3: Russo had a house right behind John, so they were

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Speaker 3: certainly friendly from the neighborhood now.

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Speaker 1: Antonio Russo was a strongly built high school dropout who

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Speaker 1: wore dreadlocks and sold weed, which was the reason he

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Speaker 1: gave for coming over to John's house in a twenty

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Speaker 1: eighteen interview with the cops to sell weed to some

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Speaker 1: of those who were interested, and according to three people,

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Speaker 1: Russo had a gun in his waistband both before and

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Speaker 1: after the murder. One of those three people said they

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Speaker 1: had been threatened with it.

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Speaker 3: He's the tough guy. He's a little bit crazy, not

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Speaker 3: in the legal sense, just in the real world sense.

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Speaker 3: He's the resident tough guy. He's making everyone uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: But for now he's supplying weed to this otherwise fun

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Speaker 1: after party at John's house. Now, at some point Mark

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Speaker 1: Fisher made some sort of a faux pas that served

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Speaker 1: as an alleged motive.

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Speaker 2: Everybody was drinking, a couple of people with smoking weed.

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Speaker 2: At one point Marks out on a table and we're

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Speaker 2: going a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Right sitting on a table. I've never heard that be

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Speaker 1: cited as a reason to kill anyone. And what's nice

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Speaker 1: about Antonio Russo's statement to detectives in twenty eighteen is

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Speaker 1: that it takes some of the guest work out of

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Speaker 1: what actually happened. Now, Russo said that he and Fisher

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Speaker 1: went to the ATM together so Fisher could buy weed.

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Speaker 1: Their re seat said for twenty three, but according to

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Speaker 1: the bank it was an hour behind. This was five

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Speaker 1: twenty three am. So. Russo and Fisher returned to John's

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Speaker 1: house a little after that. Now, Albert and Angel were

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Speaker 1: there when they returned, so they soon left together to

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Speaker 1: go to Albert's, which was only a couple of blocks away.

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Speaker 2: They were there when they came back from UTM, Yes,

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Speaker 2: and then they slip out. They say they said goodbye

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Speaker 2: to people, but I don't remember them saying goodbye to anybody.

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Speaker 2: I just remember them disappearing.

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Speaker 1: Without Meredith or Mark, by the way, both of whom

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Speaker 1: had a reasonable expectation that they'd be sticking with Angel

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Speaker 1: and Albert, which was their only connection to this after party.

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Speaker 1: Now we're not sure why they were left behind, but nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: Meredith had fallen asleep, and before Mark actually did you

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Speaker 1: called Albert at five fifty seven am to let him

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Speaker 1: know that Mark was on his way over, and then

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Speaker 1: Russo left with him. Correct Now, it was cold out right,

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Speaker 1: so Mark asked if he could take the blanket that

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Speaker 1: he had draped over his shoulders, and that becomes an

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Speaker 1: interesting topic of conversation or evidence, if you could call

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Speaker 1: it that, later on. What we know is that forty

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Speaker 1: minutes later, Mark Fisher was shot and killed in front

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Speaker 1: of one fifty Argyle Road, which was just a few

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Speaker 1: blocks from John's house and directly across the street from Albert's.

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Speaker 3: Directly across the street from Cleary's house.

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Speaker 1: Correct Now, according to Google Maps, this is about a

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Speaker 1: five minute walk less than a quarter of a mile,

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Speaker 1: so we're not sure what happened in those other thirty

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Speaker 1: five minutes. The free floating radicals, if you will, are

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Speaker 1: Mark Fisher, Antonio Russo, Angel Di Pietro, and Albert Cleary.

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Speaker 1: Now from this twenty eighteen detectives report, Russo said that

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Speaker 1: while on Argyle Road, he pulled out his German Luger

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Speaker 1: nine millimeter, which belonged to him and him alone. He

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Speaker 1: took Fisher's wallet and told him to run before firing

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Speaker 1: a shot at the ground to let Fisher know that

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Speaker 1: the gun was real and loaded. He then fired a

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Speaker 1: shot at Fisher, who fell to the ground. When Fisher

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Speaker 1: asked him why he had shot him, Russo emptied his

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Speaker 1: clip into him, killing him on the spot. Now, Russo

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Speaker 1: said that there was a woman in a car who

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Speaker 1: could identify him. When he was fleeing the scene, he

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Speaker 1: got rid of the wallet at a sewer near his house.

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Speaker 1: It was later recovered by police. Now, immediately after the crime,

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Speaker 1: Antonio Russo did a few things that a guilty person might.

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Speaker 2: He used to wear braids in whole life, and he

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Speaker 2: shaved his head.

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Speaker 3: Russo then decides to take a vacation in California for

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Speaker 3: a month and just disappear.

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Speaker 1: And it'll become clear that Russo's twenty eighteen account is

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Speaker 1: definitely missing a few details. But what is absolutely certain

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Speaker 1: is that he said he did this alone with his

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Speaker 1: own gun.

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Speaker 3: The other interesting factor was the people who lived on

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Speaker 3: Argyle Road. They heard voices right before the shots, and

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Speaker 3: the woman whose bedroom was right above the driveway where

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Speaker 3: Mark was found heard car doors opening and closing. Also

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Speaker 3: heard young voices, and she was adamant that one of

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Speaker 3: them was a female voice.

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Speaker 1: Right the ocumen of one point fifty Argyle, wrote Heroko.

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Speaker 1: Swornick said that she was awakened by her dog barking

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Speaker 1: and heard the sound of a car door opening and shutting,

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Speaker 1: which was later clarified to be a van door. The

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Speaker 1: Clearies owned a van. Swornick went on to say that

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Speaker 1: the view from her second story window was obstructed by foliage,

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Speaker 1: but she heard more than two young people talking. The

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Speaker 1: conversation specifically did not sound like an argument, and one

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Speaker 1: of the voices was female. She said that she went

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Speaker 1: back to bed, and a bit later she and her

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Speaker 1: husband heard gunshots and called police. Mark Fischer's body had

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Speaker 1: been shot five times. The blanket from John's house lay

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Speaker 1: underneath his feet, and there were abrasions on his right

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Speaker 1: hand on the right side of his face, suggesting that

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Speaker 1: he had been in a fight with someone who was

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Speaker 1: left handed. While the suggestion of that physical evidence is

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00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 1: not proof positive of anything, John is in fact a

390
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Speaker 1: writing and also visible in the crime scene photos is

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Speaker 1: a petite, bare footprint left in the mud. But none

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Speaker 1: of those details were even brought up in trial, and

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Speaker 1: neither was what the police heard from neighbors.

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Speaker 2: They did a canvas of the neighborhood. Some people said

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Speaker 2: that they heard shots. Some people said that they heard

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Speaker 2: a flighting van door and also saw a dark colored

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Speaker 2: car speeding away curiously.

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Speaker 1: Antonio Russo also mentioned in that twenty eighteen report being

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Speaker 1: seen by a woman in a car while he fled

400
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Speaker 1: on foot. And by the way, he's not left handed either.

401
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Speaker 3: I believe Albert Cleary is left handed. Now let me

402
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 3: be clear, I'm not going any farther than that accusing

403
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 3: him of anything. But Albert Cleary also had a vehicle

404
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,879
Speaker 3: of similar make and model that was described by the

405
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 3: witnesses on Argyle Road. Our working theory has always been

406
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Speaker 3: that Albert and Angel stumbled in to Russo doing something

407
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,399
Speaker 3: bad and didn't want to get involved in coming after

408
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,639
Speaker 3: him because he's a monster. And I'm not using Albert

409
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 3: and Angel of murders or anything like that, but there

410
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 3: is a ton of credible evidence that suggests that they

411
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,479
Speaker 3: were not honest about what they knew. One of the

412
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 3: things which is really troubling is at the party, Russo

413
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: comes in, and Russo has got long dreadlocks, and he's

414
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Speaker 3: a tough guy. He sticks out like a sore thumb.

415
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 3: And when Angel talks to the cops and she says,

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Speaker 3: tell us all the people at the party, she never

417
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 3: mentions Russo at all. In fact, she says it's just

418
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 3: like a bunch of white guys. Now Russo is not white,

419
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 3: but she told her friend, her then boyfriend, that there

420
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 3: was a really scary guy there. When trial comes around,

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00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 3: Angel identifies John, which is not a big deal, just

422
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 3: oh yeah, that's the guy who's house we went to.

423
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 3: And she's describing the people there. Remember Russo sitting at

424
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 3: the table too. They're on trial at the same time.

425
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 3: She's never asked to identify Russo, not even asked. The

426
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 3: reality is Russo said he saw a girl. The neighbors

427
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 3: heard a girl. There's the footprint that you described by

428
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 3: their own admission. Albert and Angel are across the street, now,

429
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 3: wouldn't you know it? Who do you think the only

430
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 3: people on the block when they interviewed people at the

431
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 3: houses who said they didn't hear anything.

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Speaker 1: Which is completely unbelievable because I've been to this neighborhood

433
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 1: and the neighbors driveways are maybe at most twenty thirty

434
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: yards across the street from the other neighbor's front doors.

435
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 3: Six point thirty in the morning on a Sunday, and

436
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 3: there's boom boom, boom, boom, boom boom, and no one

437
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: in the Cleary house. Here's the thing. And if you

438
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 3: talk to some of the neighbors and they told us

439
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 3: this when everybody came out, obviously, I mean it's kind

440
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 3: of a big deal in a neighborhood like that. Nobody

441
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 3: came out of the Cleary house. The morning after the murder.

442
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: Him and Angel DiPietro decided to clean the garage after

443
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 3: partying all night, which is a bizarre thing before they

444
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 3: quickly decamped to her Long Island home, where they hung

445
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 3: out with her criminal defense father all day, a place

446
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 3: Cleary had never been before. What does that all mean?

447
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 3: Who's to say? But this is highly bizarre conduct in

448
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 3: the grand scheme of what happened here.

449
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned, Angel's father, James D. Pietro, was

450
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: a prominent defense attorney.

451
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 3: He's a prominent lawyer, well respected lawyer, close friend to Hines,

452
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 3: frequent financial donor to Hines.

453
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: Interestingly, Angel had plans to follow in her dad's footsteps

454
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: and later passed the bar.

455
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 3: And then a short time later she gets hired as

456
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 3: a prosecutor to the point where her and Nicolozzi are

457
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,479
Speaker 3: colleagues for years. Who's ever heard of this?

458
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: So a short time later she got hired as a

459
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: prosecutor in the Brooklyn DA's office. You can't make this up,

460
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: so okay, So back to the immediate aftermath. At around

461
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: ten am that morning, Angel began receiving phone calls from

462
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: family and friends of Mark Fisher, and she told them

463
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 1: that Meredith Denahan had given Mark trainfair and he had

464
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: taken a train around eight or nine am. Now, in

465
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: initial interviews, Angel also told detectives that she had spoken

466
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: to Meredith on the morning of October twelfth, who allegedly

467
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: told her that Mark had woken John up around six

468
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: am and asked where to catch a train, but Meredith

469
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: denied that this conversation ever took place.

470
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 3: She didn't talk to Mary for some period of time

471
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 3: because Mary was pissed at her for what she believed

472
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 3: was being abandoned. Mary is her like Garden City friend,

473
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 3: but she doesn't go to Brooklyn that often, and she's

474
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 3: left at this house by herself. She's pissed off because

475
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 3: she thinks Angel is sneaking out to stup Cleary and

476
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 3: just snuck out and left her there.

477
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 1: So this is what Meredith told investigators on October fourteenth.

478
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: So this is two days in and they knew that

479
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: Angel wasn't telling the truth, and Mark Fisher's friends and

480
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 1: family old investigators the same thing. They had a hard

481
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: time getting a straight answer from Angel.

482
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 3: Everyone who is concerned about Mark Fisher is asking Where's Mark?

483
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: Where's Mark? And Angel is telling different stories about when

484
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 3: his friends were calling or when he left. And in

485
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 3: two thousand and four, late spring, early summer, A key

486
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 3: point of emphasis for law enforcement was Angel, and you

487
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 3: could see they spent a lot of time tracking her

488
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 3: and trying to interview her friends and roommates, and they

489
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 3: all said, we didn't believe her. She's telling different stories.

490
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: We basically cut her off. We didn't want to be

491
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: associated with her anymore after this. And the people who

492
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: believe Angel is not telling the truth more than anyone

493
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: else are Mark Fisher's family. They have from day one

494
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: accused her and Cleary of not telling the truth. They

495
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: went so far as to sue the both of them

496
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: after their son was murdered and John was convicted, and

497
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 3: they wanted to sue Albert and Angel. They asked the

498
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 3: DA for this police paperwork that talked about these neighbors

499
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: on Argyle Road who said we heard a girl, we

500
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 3: heard a girl, And the Brooklyn DA's response was, we're

501
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 3: not giving you that. They were protecting Angel even back then.

502
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: It at least appears as if some deal was made

503
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: with her, or perhaps with her father, to keep her

504
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 1: out of the crosshairs. So this is all super interesting,

505
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: But what the hell does this have to do with

506
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: John's guilt or innocence. How do the vulnerabilities of Albert

507
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: and Angel having maybe seen Russo commit this crime and

508
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: covering for that fact. How does this get directed towards

509
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: John and this narrative with the Ghetto Mafia.

510
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: When the cops interviewed Antonio Russo a couple days after

511
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 3: the murder, he is the one who planted the seed

512
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: in the cops ears that there was this big, tough

513
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 3: gang named Ghetto Mafia, of which John and others were

514
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 3: involved in, and that they could have been behind this.

515
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: As soon as I found out that the police wanted

516
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 2: to talk to me, I went right there to the pricing.

517
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, Lauren Calciano drove me that

518
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: was the seven oh Precinct detectives, which are the same

519
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: guys who stuck a punger up the guy's ass abnue Luima.

520
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: And for those who don't remember the awful case of

521
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: abnue Luima, embrace yourself. It was nineteen ninety seven and

522
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: the seventieth Precinct, or the seven OZ as it was called,

523
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: and mister Luima was effectively kidnapped by police from the

524
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: scene of a fight outside of a club. They accused

525
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: him of assaulting one of the four police officers with them,

526
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: then brutally beat him and when back at the seventieth

527
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: precinct they sexually assaulted mister Luima with a broken broomstick,

528
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: and yes, it's actually even worse than it sounds. This

529
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: sparked national outrage and protests here in New York. And

530
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: so these officers knew that you knew that story.

531
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: They tried to like subtly threaten me with that too.

532
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: When I was in the precinct, they said, you have

533
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: to use the bathroom. I said, I don't have to

534
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 2: use the bathroom. They said, you have to use the bathroom.

535
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: I'm like what, And they took me to the bathroom

536
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: and then tried to question me in the bathroom. And

537
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my fucking.

538
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: God, un fucking believable. These fucking dirt bags. I'm guessing

539
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: that this was before your lawyer got there.

540
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: Right before my lawyer got there. They just wanted me

541
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: to either confess or blame someone. That's when my lawyer

542
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: cuts the interviews often he said, that's it. That's the

543
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: only thing you guys want to hear. That's it. We

544
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: have nothing more to say.

545
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: So these are the tactics that we're being used in

546
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: the initial investigation back in the fall of two thousand

547
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: and three, and as the Prosecutor's office took over, things

548
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: may have been more delicate, perhaps, but still very sinister

549
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: and very serious. And it appears that Albert Cleary was

550
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: under the same sort of intense pressure.

551
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: Now Cleary had denied knowing anything, and he actually had

552
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: his lawyer go on national TV to say, we're cooperating,

553
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: we know nothing. They even commissioned a polygraph in which

554
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: Cleary passed the polygraph in which he said, I don't

555
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: know anything about this. I've been truthful, I've told the

556
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: police everything I know, which I'll send. At that time

557
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 3: was I know nothing. But a few months later, after

558
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: he got pressured, according to Cleary, he knew everything.

559
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: And what becomes clear is that he had become their

560
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: star witness against you. So, John, when did you get

561
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: the feeling that this investigation had shifted and the heat

562
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: was being directed towards you?

563
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: When they appointed this elite investigative unit consisting of Brooklyn

564
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: Adas and Major K Squad detectives, and Michael Vickione was

565
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: spearheading that team.

566
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: So even with Albert shouting from the rooftops that he

567
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: quote passed a polygraph saying that he didn't know anything.

568
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: This elite investigative you that headed by the now disgraced

569
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: Michael VECCHIONI had Albert ready to say whatever the hell

570
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: he could dream up in order to save himself. And

571
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: as we mentioned, he wasn't the only one. The two

572
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: most important pieces of false testimony centered around when Albert

573
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: and your girlfriend at the time, Lauren Calciano, met up

574
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: with you at your house sometime on October twelve, in

575
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the murder.

576
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 3: What the DA claims is later that night or the day,

577
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: according to Lauren, that John is meeting with his girlfriend

578
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: Lauren and Albert in his bedroom. According to the DA,

579
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: he tells them what happened, and according to Cleary, John

580
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: tells him Mark disrespected my house by sitting on a

581
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 3: table and it pissed me off. So I told Russo

582
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: take my gun and show him what's up. Basically gave

583
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: the order. Lauren, again ostensibly at the exact same meeting,

584
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: says what happened is John told us Russo had approached

585
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: him that night and said I want to rob Mark.

586
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: Can I borrow your gun? And John, ever, the loyal

587
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: friend that he is, would say, here, take my gun.

588
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 3: She claims it's during the day, Albert claims it's at night.

589
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: Albert's claiming John's talking about ordering a hit, Lauren's talking

590
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: about Russo asking them for a gun. And the common

591
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: denominator here is that both of these witnesses had denied

592
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: for a year knowing anything until they were pressured and

593
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: threatened with all kinds of things. Lauren was threatened with

594
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: her future, very embarrassing details about her personal life. Albert

595
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 3: was threatened with jail, perjury, all kinds of things. He

596
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: was on probation for kicking the crap out of somebody

597
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: a few months earlier. And so at a bare minimum,

598
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 3: you have conclusive proof that either one of Lauren or

599
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: Albert take your pick. I would argue it doesn't even matter,

600
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: just demonstrates they're all full as shit. But you have

601
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: conclusive proof that the prosecution has no problem calling at

602
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: least one witness it knows is flat out perjuring themselves,

603
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 3: now cleary. He also added to that story that you know,

604
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: I was talking to John and this guy Rob Register,

605
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: the head of ghetto mafia, and John and Raw We're

606
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 3: talking about how we don't have enough street credibility, so

607
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: we need to catch your body. Legister at the time

608
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: was a college student of North Carolina. And we of

609
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: course have a sworn AFFI David from this legister guy

610
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: saying this is all a bunch of nonsense. He's never

611
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: called to testify to any of this. But yet at

612
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: the trial you have Nicolozzi talking about Capo's soldiers orders

613
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: Tony Soprano. It's insane.

614
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: So these are the two fallse statements that eventually got

615
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: John indicted at a secret grand jurie. Now, Antonio Russo

616
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: had already been arrested in November two thousand and four.

617
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: Why that took so long, nobody knows.

618
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: After Russo got arrested, that was it, I thought. And

619
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 2: then I went shopping. It was a couple of days

620
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: before Christmas, on December twenty one, two thousand and four,

621
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: and I bought a whole bunch of Christmas gifts for everyone.

622
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: And I was on my way home to put up

623
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: the Christmas tree for my mother and I had I

624
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: was walking home with a whole bunch of bags from

625
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: Macy's and all different places, and they were there in

626
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: front of my house and then Detective Burns that have

627
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: been being good, I said, yeah, what are you doing here?

628
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: And he said, put your hands behind your back. And

629
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: then when they put me in the car, I could

630
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: hear they called Recione and I could hear on the

631
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: phone because it's so loud, and we're sitting in a

632
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: quiet car, and he is laughing hysterically, and he said,

633
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: wish you to marry Christmas while he was just laughing

634
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: like a cool evil for the fucker their youth.

635
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: So you spent Christmas on Riker's Island, and with a

636
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: Class A one felony, you weren't giving any chance to

637
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: bond out, so you were stuck there for the next

638
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: nine months.

639
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: I thought it would have took much longer because every

640
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: person who was there for an A one film or

641
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: so serious case like that, a murder case was taken

642
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 2: at least two or three years, and they rushed my

643
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: case to trial in eight months.

644
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: Because of that election, Joe Hines had a seat as

645
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: primary challenger Stge Senator John Sampson, and if he lost,

646
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: he may have had to call in a favor from

647
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: Albert's mother on the King's County GOP Executive Committee. And

648
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm not a conspiracy guy, but that's who you call.

649
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: But as part of his taxpayer funded election campaign. He

650
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: was making a big splash in the media with your case,

651
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: the grid kid killer case as they called him, and

652
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: they didn't plan on losing, so they needed to support

653
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: their two false witnesses with more bullshit and went out

654
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: and found another friend of yours with a vulnerability to exploit,

655
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: a guy named Anthony Bahari who played the part of

656
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: another alleged mafia soldier whose job it was to get

657
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: rid of the gun.

658
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 3: Yes, he was another witness who satisfied the formula of

659
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 3: claimed for a year and a half that he didn't

660
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: know anything, but after being heavily pressured, claimed that the

661
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 3: morning after the homicide that John called him up and

662
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: asked him to do him a favor and pick up

663
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: an item and leave it on the corner for somebody

664
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: else to pick up, and Biharry testified that he looked

665
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 3: at the item and that it was a firearm. So

666
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 3: that testimony was potentially very damaging, but was problematic for

667
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons. He was threatened with losing his son,

668
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 3: with being prosecuted for actually possessing the gun, which is

669
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: a legal fiction. The gun was never recovered. The DA

670
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: was threatening to prosecute him for possession of a gun

671
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: that they had no evidence of where it was, or

672
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: whether it was operable, or anything else.

673
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: It was alleged that John and Bahari had called each

674
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: other back and forth to plan how he would leave

675
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: the gun under a box on the street for some

676
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: mystery buyer who would leave the money in its place.

677
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: All they had to do to prove that that wasn't

678
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 2: true was get these phone records.

679
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: And then what case with this many coerced and or

680
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: incentivized witnesses and a total lack of any concrete evidence

681
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: would be complete without a jailhouse snitch. So in walks Johnavito,

682
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: who did time at Rikers while you were there. He

683
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: had a burglary charge and was eventually sentenced to a

684
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: drug rehab program with the burglary sentence suspended pending his

685
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: completion of the program, and I believe a probation period.

686
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: But he fell off the wagon, and now all of

687
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: a sudden he had a story to tell, and in

688
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: swoop the Brooklyn DIA's office to snatch up another willing

689
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: participant in John's railroading. So you and Antonio Russo went

690
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: to trial together. So you're in the same courtroom, but

691
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: you had two separate juries, which I'm led to understand

692
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: is meant to streamline the process, save money, and then

693
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: say if there's a jury misconduct issue, then they don't

694
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: have to toss both convictions. So same trial, separate juries,

695
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: right red jury and green jury.

696
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 2: The green jury.

697
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: So we've gone over three of the four substantive witnesses,

698
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: Albert Cleary, Lauren Calciano, and Anthony Bajari. Lauren and Anthony

699
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 1: I'm both recanted under oath, as has the jail house

700
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: snitch John DeVito, whose testimony were about to cover Mark

701
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: tell us about the state's case.

702
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: The jury's being told essentially that Juka's childhood friend, Albert

703
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: Cleary's going to come in and tell you that John,

704
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 3: as a member of this gang ghetto mafia, told Albert

705
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 3: that they wanted to increase their street credibility, so they

706
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 3: needed to kill someone. That Mark Fisher sat on a

707
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: table in his family room. This was such an act

708
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: of disrespect that it made jukea rage to the point

709
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: where he told Antonio Russo, take my gun and you

710
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 3: go out and you quote unquote show Fisher what's up,

711
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: which apparently is their way of saying shoot him.

712
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: I remember that he tried to say that I told

713
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: Russo to wait in the bushes and ambush him on

714
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 2: Turner Plate, which is a block away from my house. Meanwhile,

715
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: it was obviously based on nine one one calls where

716
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: the body was found and the blood. There was no

717
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: blood trail from Turner all the way to his house,

718
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: so it was just an obvious lie. Also, and he

719
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: pushed a one PM phone call up to eleven, which.

720
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: Angel d Pietro testified falsely to as well. So you

721
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: had called Albert just before one pm that day. Phone

722
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: wreckers corroborated that, but both of them testified to an

723
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: eleven AM call, So it might be plausible that you

724
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: were the alleged source of all of their shady information

725
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: during the immediate aftermath. Now there's something else about Albert's

726
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: time on the stand. Nicolazzi brought up the polygraph he

727
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: had taken to prove he didn't know anything about the crime,

728
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: But in a very misleading context, she.

729
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: Really is slick. Nicolosi when he was on the stands

730
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: after he says the exact opposite of that polygraph, He

731
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: says he does know who did this, and he does

732
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: know everything about it. She asks him, didn't you take

733
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: a polygraph? And he said yes, and then of course,

734
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: knowing polygraphs aren't admissible in course, so she knew Gregory

735
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: would object and it was a firm soul.

736
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: That's it.

737
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: The jury thought that he took and past that polygraph

738
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 2: about it what he was saying now, It was never

739
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 2: cleared up that he took a polygraph to the exact

740
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: opposite of what.

741
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 1: He was saying now, that is really devious. Now they

742
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: called your ex girlfriend Lauren Colciana to the stand, whose

743
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: testimony just can't be squared with Albert Cleary's version of

744
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: the same exact conversation between the three of you on

745
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: October twelve.

746
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: Both stories could not be true. There could not have

747
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 3: been the same meeting that Albert and Lauren are talking about.

748
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 3: And Albert's talking about John complaining about disrespect and ordering

749
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 3: Russo to commit a murder, when Lauren is saying, no,

750
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 3: what happened as Russo said, I just want to rob

751
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 3: the guy? Can I borrow your gun? If that wasn't

752
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: a red flag, I don't know what is.

753
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: And John, this was the first time that you were

754
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: hearing the one time love of your life, falsely implicating

755
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: you in a.

756
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: Murder that was crushed. She stared at me the whole

757
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: time she was up there, and it wasn't like a

758
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 2: malicious like. She wasn't staring me down. She was looking

759
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 2: at me like as if she was saying I'm sorry

760
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: with her eyes. I had a conversation with my stepsister

761
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: about that. She was like, she's being forced to do

762
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: this as obvious to me. She's telling you, I'm sorry.

763
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 1: So at this point the jury had heard from Bihari,

764
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: Angel DiPietro, as well as from Lauren and Albert, and

765
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: to anyone paying attention, it would have to be clear

766
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: that one or both of these versions of events simply

767
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: were not true.

768
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 3: So at the last minute they pull a Hail Mary.

769
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: This guy John Avito, who is a jailhouse snitch, and

770
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: he claims that I was in jail with John, and

771
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 3: I was having visitation in Riker's Island the same time

772
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 3: John was, and he was with his father and two women,

773
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 3: and Avito says I overheard John in response to the

774
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 3: question from his father, why did you have a gun

775
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 3: with you? John said, I don't know, I just did,

776
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: and in essence acknowledge have a gun. What the jury

777
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 3: never learns is that John Juca's father prior to this

778
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: jailhouse visitation, which did happen, by the way, and it's

779
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: not surprising that the snitch would use a kernel of

780
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 3: truth that could be documented by looking at jail records.

781
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 3: But what the jury didn't know, and presumably the DA

782
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 3: didn't know, was that John's father had a series of

783
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 3: debilitating strokes and as a result, he couldn't speak.

784
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: He couldn't say what Alvito said that he said, He

785
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: could only say one or maybe sometimes he would string

786
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: two words together at the time.

787
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: Had a Vito even sat close enough to hear your conversation?

788
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: He sat somewhere near us, but he didn't obviously sit

789
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: close enough to actually hear my father, because if he did,

790
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: he would have made up a better lie.

791
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 3: The jury also didn't know that the family relatives, the

792
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 3: women who were present, would have strenuously denied that occurred.

793
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: They have sworn under oath and to Davis if this

794
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: never happened.

795
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: And there was even more to this false testimony where

796
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: a Vito claimed to hear incriminating statements directly from John,

797
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: this time completely changing the location of the crime.

798
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 3: The murder unquestionably is on Argyle Road. The shots were

799
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: heard by the residents, but a Vito says, no, what

800
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 3: happened is John told me that he went to the

801
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 3: ATM with Mark Fisher, which, as you also said earlier,

802
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 3: was an hour before the murder. But this is what

803
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 3: snitches do. They read papers, they see the news, and

804
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 3: they concoct He says when Mark Fisher withdrew money at

805
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: the ATM that John told me he pulled out a

806
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: gun pistol with Mark Fisher beat him up and then

807
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: Russo took the gun and shot him. So the story

808
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: changes dramatically. On top of the fact that this is

809
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 3: coming from a jailhouse snitch who again was trying to

810
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 3: avoid a prison sentence, and they're moving the murder location.

811
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 3: This is beyond absurd.

812
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: So what did Sam Gregory do about a Vito?

813
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: Unfortunately he didn't even know about John Avito until right

814
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: before a trial. There's no offer of proof, meaning here's

815
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 3: what he's going to say. There's no notice to the

816
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: defense that, oh, by the way, we're going to argue

817
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 3: through this witness that Juca was physically there and did it.

818
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 3: So he wasn't prepared to try a case on a

819
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 3: theory other than the nonsense inconsistencies that was going to

820
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 3: come out of Lauren and Albert. If the defense had

821
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 3: been aware of this from the beginning, they could have

822
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 3: tactically prepared differently.

823
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 1: He could have prepared to have John's father's doctor testify

824
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: to his father's limitations, or the two women could have

825
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: testified to the actual substance of the conversation.

826
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: Instead, they're caught with their pants down now. The defense

827
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 3: did argue in their summation that the mere fact that

828
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 3: they called the Vito as a witness was kind of

829
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 3: a hail mary, because Lauren and Albert had imploded telling

830
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: inconsistent stories. That was a credible argument that led the

831
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 3: prosecutor to respond that John Avito was just for once

832
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: in his life, being a good guy, motivated to do

833
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 3: the right thing, and that's the only reason he's cooperating,

834
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 3: and that was just a bald face lie.

835
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: So they squashed his problems in exchange for testimony for.

836
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: The time being, they kept him out of jail despite

837
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 3: repeated violations in a mandatory prison sentence, and then once

838
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: he was no longer needed a year later, when he

839
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: violated the program again, they threw him out with the

840
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 3: trash and into prison he went when he no longer

841
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 3: had any value to them.

842
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: So this exchange of leniency for testimony represents just one

843
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: Brady violation. But there's another major one in which Russo

844
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: admitted to a fellow inmate named James Ingram to acting alone.

845
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 1: And we'll get into that Ingram evidence and more detail later,

846
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: but back to trial. So now they go from two

847
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: conflicting versions of this crime to three convicting versions of

848
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: this crime.

849
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: Not only are they different, they're internally incompatible. You can't

850
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 3: square any one of the stories with the other. Had

851
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 3: he gave Russo a gun for a robbery, or he

852
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 3: ordered the murder for street credibility, or he told him

853
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 3: to show him what's up because he disrespected him by

854
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 3: sitting on the table, or he was there himself at

855
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: the ATM. And the concern here is you throw enough mud,

856
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: however inconsistent. It is that the risk and concern is

857
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 3: that any juror says, if all of these people are

858
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 3: saying he did something, I may not know what the

859
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 3: hell he did, but he's sure as hell must have

860
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 3: done it.

861
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: Aren't they not supposed to it. Not allowed to offer

862
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: conflicting theories of the crime.

863
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: They're really supposed to take one theory and prove it

864
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable doubt. Not give the jurors Chinese suit

865
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: menu of different theories, because then you might have some

866
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: jurors that believe this and some jurors that believe that.

867
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: It's called the unanimity issue, where they have to be

868
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: unanimous about something.

869
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, to offer a menu of theories and basically say

870
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter, you know he did it, which is

871
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: essentially what the summation amounted to. It's not consistent with

872
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: due process, and it leadsleads to a jury possibly being

873
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 3: six jurors say what if.

874
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: He ordered a murder?

875
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 3: Four jurors saying what if he gave him a gun

876
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 3: for a robbery? And what if two jurors say, maybe

877
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 3: he was physically there, Okay, but we all agree he

878
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 3: did it. Okay, guilty, that's absurd, but that's what happened.

879
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: It was the worst day of my life. I was

880
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: sentenced to twenty five to life on October nineteenth, two

881
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 2: thousand and five. Every idea you could form in your

882
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: mind full short of the reality of how bad that is.

883
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: It's like bleak, hopeless, stabilitating misery. It's crippling, the depression

884
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: and the space go toward just thinking about how I

885
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: wasn't even alive for twenty five years at that point

886
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 2: when I got sent into side, I don't I didn't

887
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: even know what twenty five years that was.

888
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: In Part one of Jean Dreufa's story, you heard about

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00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: all of the different characters and circumstances that let his

890
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 1: arrest and conviction. Now hear about his epic battle through

891
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: post conviction in Part two, available now. Thank you for

892
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction Special thanks to our amazing production

893
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: team Connor hall, Any Chelsea, Jeff Clyburn, and Kevin Wartis,

894
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

895
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: Make sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

897
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

898
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

899
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow on TikTok and

900
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: Instagram at its Jason Flamm. That's It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful

901
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: Conviction is a production of Lava for Good podcasts in

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00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: association with signal Company Number one