1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Beginning on January third, nineteen eighty four, and stretching over 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: the next five weeks, five women were victims of some 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: degree of sexual assault in East Richmond, Virginia. Due to 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: the location, nature of the attacks and similar descriptions of 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: the assailant, police believed that there was a single attacker. 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: On February fifth, nineteen eighty four, eighteen year old Thomas 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: Hainsworth was misidentified. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: By one of the victims and arrested. 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: All five victims eventually echoed the misidentification. Two of the 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: attacks included biological evidence, but in nineteen eighty four, with 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: no DNA testing available, roology could only determine that Thomas's blood. 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: Type matched that of the attacker. 13 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: After one of the charges was dropped, he was tried 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: four separate times, convicted in three cases, and sentenced to 15 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: seventy four years. Although Thomas was in custody, the assaults 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: continued through December of nineteen eighty four, concluding with the 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: arrest of Leon Davis, a neighbor of Thomas's. According to 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: both men, they wrongly resembled one another. Despite their similar 19 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: appearances and the continued attacks. Authorities maintained that both men 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: were guilty. Finally, in two thousand and five, DNA testing 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: excluded Thomas from his only conviction in which there was 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: biological evidence, simultaneously inculpating Leon Davis. After an investigation, the 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: prosecutors joined Thomas and the mid Atlantic Inniscence Project, laying 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: responsibility for all of the attacks on mister Davis. Yet, 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: even without opposition, Thomas's case just barely succeeded in the 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals, but nevertheless he was finally exonerated after 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: twenty seven years. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flaman. I want to 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: start by say this episode demonstrates a classic example of 30 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: why eyewitness identification is so terribly unreliable and why we 31 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: must keep working to institute practices that safeguard us against 32 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: the problems with cross racial misidentification as happened in this case, 33 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: keeping an innocent man in prison for twenty seven years. 34 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: And that man is our guest today, Thomas Hainsworth. Thomas, 35 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you here, even though I 36 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: hate the reason why you're here, but thank you for taking. 37 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: The time to be with us on the show today. 38 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: You're wil And with Thomas as somebody who our avid 39 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: listeners will recognize. Sean Arburst is the sort of the 40 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: straw that stirs the drink at the mid Atlantic Innocence Project. 41 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: She is an attorney, she's an advocate, she's a fighter, 42 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: and she's my friend. And I'm super glad to have 43 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: you here as well, Shawn, So welcome back to Rawful Conviction. 44 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 3: Thank you, Jason. Great to be here, and it always 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 3: grew to be with Thomas. 46 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: So Thomas, take us back, if you would, what was 47 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: your life like growing up? 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: No, Michelle grew up with three sisters and a younger brother, 49 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 4: you know, into sports, into music, Like I said, my 50 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 4: child it was falling friend, you know. 51 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: And you grew up in Richmond, Virginia. 52 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: Is that right, right? 53 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 5: Richmond, Virginia? Right? 54 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: So it sounds about like what the childhood is more 55 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: or less I want to say supposed to be like, 56 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: but pretty much sports music. You know. I'm sure you 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: had your ups and downs like any other teenager. But 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: a series of terrible, terrible crimes sort of rock the 59 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: city of Richmond at this time. And Sean, can you 60 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: describe to us what happened? 61 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 3: So the crimes Thomas initially got caught up in were 62 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: a group of five crimes between January third and February 63 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 3: first of nineteen eighty four, and they were all rapes 64 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: or sexual assaults in the tiny corner of Richmond that's 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: also right on the border of Henryko County. It was 66 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 3: four crimes in Richmond, one in Henrico County. And these 67 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: are eerily similar crimes. They happen at the same time 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: of day, all white victims. They all describe I mean, 69 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 3: it's a fairly generic description because it's white victims describing 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 3: a black perpetrator. But they all describe someone who looks 71 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 3: fairly similar, someone who typically approaches with a knife, who 72 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 3: has a series of kind of odd behaviors, says a 73 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: bunch of odd things. So the sort of prototypical one 74 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 3: of these crimes was either early in the morning or 75 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: right around dusk. Victim would be approached by a perpetrator 76 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 3: outside on the street, and the perpetrator would take the 77 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 3: victim to various locations and commit different types of sexual assault, 78 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: so sometimes vaginal rape, sometimes oral sodomy, sometimes adle sodomy, 79 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: and would make the victims kind of pretend to be 80 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: his girlfriend as they were walking around. And when you're 81 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: looking at a pattern like this, obviously not every crime 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 3: fits precisely into the pattern. Some get interrupted. In this case, 83 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: the attacker was pretty easily scared away. This is part 84 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 3: of how he avoided being caught for so long. But 85 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: it's that same basic arc and these are terrifying crimes. 86 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: And the first case the one that said all of 87 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: this in motion. I believe it was not only the 88 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: crime itself that was so jarring, but also the location 89 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: that had occurred in that threw the story to the forefront. 90 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: So tell us what happened there. 91 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: The first case took place on January third, and the 92 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 3: victim in that case went to her work at a 93 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: church preschool and she was waiting for students to come 94 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: in for the day and was very quickly accosted by 95 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 3: a rapist who held her at nice point, raped her, 96 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: and ran away as the first parents started coming in 97 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: for the day. And so, you know, if you can 98 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: imagine it, a woman who she's in her late teen's 99 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: early twenties, she is in a church, she is waiting 100 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 3: for three year olds to come in and is dealing 101 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: with the fact that she's just been raped. So right, 102 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 3: off the bat, these crimes are really horrific and the 103 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 3: kind of crime that make you think you're not safe anywhere, right, 104 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: And I think it's that mentality that really started making 105 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: these crimes particularly high profile in Richmond. 106 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: And the second crime took place just a few weeks 107 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: after the first, on January twenty first, and it took 108 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: place in a grocery store. Again, I think it added 109 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: to the horror that these assaults were happening in places 110 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: that we normally think of as being safe spaces, right, 111 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: A nursery school, a grocery store, And they continued on 112 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: with alarming regularity, because then the time between the crimes 113 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: started shrinking. So we're talking about on January twenty seven, 114 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: and so now only six days after the second attack, 115 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: a man with a knife approached a woman outside of 116 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: her home and demanded money and sex. Sheilo luckily went 117 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: inside and slammed the door shut and locked it and 118 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: called the police, so she escaped. Then on January thirtieth, 119 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: so just three days later, an eighteen year old woman 120 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: was abducted, raped, and sodomized at gunpoint in Henrico County, 121 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: just a few blocks from the other attacks. And then 122 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: on February first, So again, the windows are just shrinking 123 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: faster and faster. A nineteen year old woman was adducted 124 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: at gunpoint outside her East Richmond home. The gunman forced 125 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: her to go inside the house, but he fled when 126 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: the family dog began barking at him. And wow, I mean, 127 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: what a close call that was. So all of these 128 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: incidents happened within a one mile radius. This guy was 129 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: almost begging to be caught, but he continued getting away 130 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: with it. Now, because of the locations of the attacks, 131 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: a description of the attacker, and the nature of the assaults, 132 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: everyone was pretty much on the same page that it 133 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: was one person that was responsible, right, But what happens 134 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: in these cases that we see again and again is 135 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: that there was a misidentification which set this awful chain 136 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: of events in motion. Take us through that, Sean, if 137 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: you don't mind. 138 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 3: Absolutely. So, Thomas was walking to the store to get 139 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: sweet potatoes for his mom and one of the victims 140 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 3: saw him and said, that's my rapist. She called police. 141 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: Police came picked him up, arrested him, and then four 142 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: more victims identified him as the perpetrator, and that was it. 143 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: Now, these are all cross racial eye with its identifications, 144 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: and that comes with its own problems already, and we 145 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: find out later that the actual perpetrator did in fact 146 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: resemble Thomas as well, just adding to the confusion and 147 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: making it even harder for the victims to make the 148 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: correct idea. But before we even get into that, Sean, 149 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: can you tell us a bit about cross racial idea 150 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: dentification in general. 151 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 3: So what we know, and we know this based on 152 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: now decades of social science research, is that people are 153 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 3: not good at identifying people of different races. We also 154 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: know that white people are particularly bad at identifying people 155 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 3: of different races, particularly when those people are African American. 156 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 3: So what we have seen over and over and over 157 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 3: again is that the likelihood of an error by an 158 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: eyewitness is just magnified when it is a cross racial identification, 159 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: that is, a white person identifying a black person. If 160 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: you look at the actual percentage of black on white 161 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 3: rapes in the country, it is infinitesimally small. If you 162 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: look at the percentage of DNA exonerations in rape cases 163 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: that are black on white rape, it is extraordinarily large. 164 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: And just those two numbers can tell you all you 165 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 3: need to know about the enhanced risk of error when 166 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 3: you have black and white idea. 167 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it fits into the stereotype, this sort of 168 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: racist mythology that has been a part of unfortunately, our 169 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: culture and our judicial system for as long as we've 170 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: had one. 171 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: And then you can't look at the cross racial nature 172 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: of these crimes and not talk about where you are 173 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: and when you're there. So you're in Richmond, which is 174 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: the capital of the Confederacy, and it's nineteen eighty four, 175 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 3: and you cannot divorce these cases from that time period 176 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: and that place either. 177 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: Now, Thomas, tell us what happened when they arrested you 178 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: and what was going through your mind. 179 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 4: These stopped me in the morning. They said, the lady 180 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 4: she picked you out, and she can dentify you. And 181 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 4: that's where I was going. I said, I'm going to 182 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 4: the store. He said what he used to do. Right here, 183 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 4: she could identify the person. I said, yeah, I ain't 184 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 4: gonna have que I'm not gonna want So they want 185 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: to get the female big and brought it back and 186 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 4: she looked at me like she won too shore and 187 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 4: then he sees some tour and she looked at me 188 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 4: again like she won too. Shoe about the person, and 189 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 4: then they did it for the third time. They talked 190 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 4: to her in the third time and she just put 191 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: her hands up, and then they came and said he 192 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 4: was unarrest said, I'm the rest for what. They put 193 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 4: her handcufs on me and they put me in back patrol 194 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 4: car and he took me to the Richardson in jail and. 195 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 5: They got dan Neil. Then when it came to reality, 196 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 5: to me what was. 197 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 4: Going on the child's will, rape, production and burking the innswer, 198 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 4: I ain't know what to think, you know. 199 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 200 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading 201 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the 202 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 203 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: pro Bono program, which provides relegal services and other support 204 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need as 205 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: part of Excensure's commitment to racial and civil justice. Accenture's 206 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,239 Speaker 1: Legal Access program provides pro bono legal services in partnership 207 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to people 208 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: and communities worldwide. Okay, so the initial identification at least from. 209 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: Your perspective looked shaky right. 210 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: The victim seemed to go back and forth a few 211 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: times until throwing her hands up in the air. Then 212 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: you're arrested, and eventually all five victims misidentified you as 213 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: the attacker. All five dealing with the cross racial nature 214 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: of this idea as well as the fact that you 215 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: actually did resemble the attacker. So you're charged with rape, 216 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: along with a slew of other charges that came with 217 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: each incident. I'm talking about our abduction, breaking and entering, robbery, 218 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: and then you go to trial. 219 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 4: One of my lord they came with suggestion, you know 220 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 4: you got these seed childs. I think it the best 221 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 4: you will. Please get to, you know, get a life sentence, 222 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 4: to get fishball role with Somewhere down the line you 223 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 4: got aldy seated charge. You're going to get a license, 224 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 4: And I said, now, I'm not gonna plead get into nothing. 225 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 5: Ain't do. 226 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 4: I said, I'd rather pull the try out and I 227 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 4: could be found get to convict the license. 228 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 5: I deal with it, but I'm never getting my right 229 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 5: up to be innocent though. 230 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: So you've got your own defense team trying to push 231 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: you to admit guilt, which is not unfortuately exactly uncommon. Obviously, 232 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: some people are actually guilty while others plead guilty just 233 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: because it's a smarter decision to do so. I mean, 234 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: fased with the choice of a lenient sentence or the 235 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: unknown at trial, right, especially when life or even death 236 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: sentences are you know, dangling over your head. I mean, 237 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: with that at play. It's no wonder that convictions are 238 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: obtained through guilty please, at a rate of close to 239 00:13:55,520 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: ninety eight percent, right over ninety seven percent a melody. 240 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: Convictions of the United States are a result of guilty. 241 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: Please. 242 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 1: It's a very understandable choice to make. But when given 243 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: that choice, Thomas, you held firm in your innocence. I mean, 244 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: that's a courageous and principled stand to take. Now, Okay, 245 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: so we go to the trial, right, or should I 246 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: say the trials, because there were four separate trials. The 247 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: charges in the January twenty seventh incident where the attacker 248 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: approached with a knife and the victim fled to her house, 249 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: those charges were dropped. So for the four trials, though 250 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: the prosecution relied on the victims misidentifications of Thomas. Now, 251 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: in two of the four cases, there was some biological evidence, 252 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: but in the early eighties there was no DNA testing, 253 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: only sorology, right. 254 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, what you have in terms of physical evidence in 255 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties is you can test semen for blood type, 256 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: and you also can test for something that's known as 257 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: secretor status. If I am a secretor I'm somebody whose 258 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 3: blood type shows up in my other bodily fluids. So 259 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: like if I spit on a table, you can figure 260 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: out my blood type from the spit. A non sec 261 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: rereader is somebody whose blood type isn't in the spit, 262 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: So they were in you know, at least a couple 263 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 3: of Thomas's cases able to do that very limited amount 264 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 3: of science, but that's science. It could give you percentages, 265 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 3: but the percentages were pretty big, right, So think about 266 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: all the people in the world who have type oh blood. Well, 267 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 3: that's what you can really narrow down to. So you know, 268 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 3: Thomas was in that case in the population of people 269 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: who could have committed the crime. But that's a really 270 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: big population of people. 271 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: Right, So it really doesn't do a great job of 272 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: proving anything at all. Zerology is actually really better at 273 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: ruling a suspect out rather than in and There's also 274 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: a moment in one of the trials where Thomas's height 275 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: should have ruled him completely out. 276 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 3: So in the case in Henrico County, the victim had 277 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 3: sworn and believed correctly, it turns out that her rapist 278 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: was taller than her. She described the rapist as being 279 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 3: about five to ten Thomas's five six. So Thomas's lawyer 280 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 3: actually had the two of them stand next to each 281 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 3: other in that trial to demonstrate that Thomas was actually 282 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: shorter than this victim. But this is part of why 283 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: I witnessed testimony is so powerful. Right, This still didn't 284 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 3: shake her confidence that Thomas was the perpetrator. She was 285 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 3: still one hundred percent sure that Thomas did it. And 286 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: so there's not much a defense lawyer could do in 287 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four in the face of that kind of testimony. 288 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: So the charges had been dropped in the January twenty 289 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: seventh incident, but you still had to sit through similar 290 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: proceedings four times over, where the facts of four very real, 291 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: unspeakably horrible assaults were presented, but along with no meaningful 292 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: physical evidence to implicate you, even the fact that you 293 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: didn't match the January thirtieth victims, description of the assailant's height. 294 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: And now the jury goes out four times on you, 295 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: and I've got to imagine that the first time was 296 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: probably the hardest pill to swallow. Right the January third 297 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: break in and rape at the nursery school. How long 298 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: did that particular trial last? 299 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 5: I reme in the first trial they last I think 300 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 5: a day and a half. 301 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 4: The Jid could not come to a verdict, and Jill 302 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: Center back home overnight and told them to think about him, 303 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 4: and they came back the next day, I think about 304 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 4: three hours they deliberated, and then they came back for. 305 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 5: The gilt, the virtue. And I was devastated. 306 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: My family devastated because the three charges at the beginning 307 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 4: with rape, breaking the interest, and Robert Lloyd got them 308 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 4: to miss the robber child. So I left the jew 309 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 4: only with two charges and rape and bringing the interest. 310 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 4: They came back. Their family get to the rape, but 311 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 4: their family not get to breaking into the entrant. The 312 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 4: parpartrat had to break into the place and rate the person. 313 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 4: So I would wonder how you could find me guilt 314 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 4: to on one and not the other. And I noticed 315 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 4: something about the jerid and all my trials, every time 316 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 4: their family guilty, they give me the lowest sentence on 317 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 4: each charges. If they cared fired in life, they get 318 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 4: five year. If you get twenty to life, they give 319 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 4: me twenty years. Because they had no sustained evidence that 320 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 4: placed me at the cram scene. 321 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 5: The only thing to hear is her words against my worry. 322 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: So now you're since ten years, and I mean, this 323 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: would seem to be the worst day in anybody's life, 324 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: but you have to still stay on trial in these 325 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: other cases. Then you got thirty six years for January thirtieth, 326 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: Then you were acquitted for the January twenty first incident, 327 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: and finally wrongfully convicted again for the February first incident 328 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: and sentenced to another twenty eight years. I mean, it's 329 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: hard to even read this stuff, and you lived it, 330 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: and thus begins your saga of being a number instead 331 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: of a name. 332 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 4: When I got into the penitential, I think was that 333 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 4: I'm not gonna see here lay there to take this. 334 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: I'm not gonna sit here and to be a part 335 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 4: of this corrupt system. I'm not gonna sit here that 336 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 4: accept your selve it for my family and my life. 337 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 4: You know, at the age of eighteen, I'm not gonna see, 338 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 4: you know, waste all my life and penitendence. So I 339 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 4: had to go there. I'm right to the end. I 340 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 4: had things I know I had to do when I 341 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 4: first added to the system. The third thing I asked 342 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 4: with the old library was and I signed them for that. 343 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 4: Then I signed up for the GED class and I 344 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 4: signed them for college. So my thing was that, you know, 345 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 4: I won't prove these people wrong. Now I'm in the 346 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 4: place that I had to grew up overnight. I had 347 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 4: become a man over night. It took me three years 348 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 4: just to open up to people. I did nothing for 349 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 4: three years this working went to school. I had to 350 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 4: learn quick and be quick on my feet of thinking 351 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 4: all the time. And you know, I had a couple 352 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 4: older guys guide me, telling me the young blood sign 353 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 4: up for school, take all the trades, and take a 354 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 4: opportunity to and get some of the guys that stayed 355 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 4: me in the right way. And they gave me good 356 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 4: device and I took each to that. 357 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like there were some good people in 358 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: there who were mentors to you. So I guess there 359 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: was a little bit of light in this miserable dark tunnel. 360 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: That you were in. 361 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: And now we've got to turn our attention to a 362 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: very important part of this terrible story, which is that 363 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: while you were incarcerated, when the rapes should have stopped, 364 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: they didn't stop at all. They actually increased. They continued 365 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: throughout the East Richmond area, where another at least ten 366 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: women reported being attacked by a young African American man 367 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: who actually asked his victims to call the police and 368 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: referred to him as the quote black ninja. Now, on 369 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: December nineteenth, nineteen eighty four, two Richmond residents saw a 370 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: man following a woman down the street. He was arrested. 371 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 1: This was a guy named Leon Davis. Now this is crazy, right. 372 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: So Leon was actually your neighbor, Thomas, and you saw 373 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: him on January thirtieth, right after that incident. But it 374 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: didn't click for you, right, The dots didn't connect until 375 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: you were hearing the victim's story and the witnesses at 376 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: your own preliminary hearing for that incident. 377 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 5: Right, what was on January thirtieth? 378 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 4: I was in my nixt birthday pond and I came 379 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 4: outside of the front one of my friend they did 380 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 4: who was on the front talking and Leon Davis came 381 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 4: from the side of the house. 382 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 5: He's a leopard, and I looked at him. I said, well, 383 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 5: happ to you? 384 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 4: And he said I would come down downtown mess with 385 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 4: the white girls down there, and so they'll say, man, 386 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 4: you don't you gonna put me down there? 387 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 5: He said yeah, he said, it chased me and I failed. 388 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: It hit my leg. 389 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 4: At that time I had on one interacted with him. 390 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 4: So then when my preminer here and when the victor 391 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: seid what happened? How she told her friend and he 392 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 4: chased them. I was saying to myself, Wow, there was 393 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 4: to day on my niece birthday party. I was at 394 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 4: home the day and I told my lawyer, I said, 395 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 4: look at this guy named lil Lin in the street 396 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 4: from me. I think he had something to do with it. 397 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 4: And I told her to take the heart. Also, the 398 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 4: leader taken on my case. But you know, my worry 399 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 4: fell on death. 400 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 5: Yeah. They ain't pay me, no man. 401 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: And if only they would have, who knows how many 402 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: of these other crimes could have been prevented. Sean tell 403 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: us about this Leon Davis guy and how they managed 404 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: to miss what should have been obvious signs. 405 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 3: So in the opinion of the Richmond Police Department and 406 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 3: the Hunreca Police Department. The crimes that Thomas was convicted of, 407 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: those types of crimes stopped when Thomas was arrested, and 408 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 3: there was a break in crimes like this until April, 409 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 3: and that is when Leon Davis, according to the original 410 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 3: government narrative, began his crime spree. I think what the 411 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 3: police missed, of course, is that he just never stopped 412 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 3: his crime spring, but he was committing crimes that looked 413 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 3: an awful lot like, specifically like the last crime Thomas 414 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: was convicted of, which is the one in Henriiko County 415 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: where he made the woman walk around and pretend she 416 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 3: was his girlfriend. And so he was able to keep 417 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: committing these crimes in an incredibly brazen way until his 418 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: arrest in December nineteen eighty four. One of the most 419 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: interesting stories I think in this case is what I 420 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 3: didn't believe when Thomas told me at first. He told 421 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: me that when he and Leon were locked up together, 422 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: Leon approached him in the Richmond City jail and said, hey, 423 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 3: you know, we kind of look alike. I've got a 424 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 3: hearing coming up in my case. Would you Thomas mind 425 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 3: standing in for me Leon at defense table to see 426 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: if we can confuse the victim, to see if the 427 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 3: victim would identify you instead of me. Wow, And I 428 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 3: thought Thomas had to be making that up because it's 429 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 3: too crazy to be true. But I actually confirmed it. 430 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 3: So this is something Leon new, it's something Thomas knew. 431 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 3: And even though it didn't appear that the police were 432 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 3: putting two and two together, there was one interrogation record 433 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 3: of Leon Davis where he was asked if he knew Thomas. 434 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 3: But I think for a lot of the police officers 435 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: at the time, there's that ongoing stereotype about black men 436 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: being sexual predators, and so I think it was probably 437 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 3: quite conceivable to the police department at the time that 438 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 3: there could just be two people who were black men 439 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 3: going around and doing the same thing. 440 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a crazy coincidence. And you've mentioned earlier, Sean, 441 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: about the fact that these crimes are exceedingly rare, in fact, 442 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: that that stereotype based on nothing. 443 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the lone black speak up in Thomas's neighborhood. 444 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 3: He apparently told detectives at the time, you got the 445 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 3: wrong kid, like this just isn't him. But detectives didn't 446 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: buy it. Even the juries struggled in this case. The 447 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 3: January third rape that went to trial first was supposed 448 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: to be the strongest case. But as you heard Thomas say, 449 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 3: the jury really struggled to reach a verdict. And that 450 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 3: first case sentenced Thomas to ten years, and that was 451 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 3: supposed to be the strong case. So even at the time, 452 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 3: there should have been warning signs that this wasn't right 453 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: and someone should have put two and two together, but 454 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: they didn't. 455 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's get to the good part. Because in 456 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: Thomas's case, just as his trials were particularly screwy, the 457 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: process of getting him out took some twists and turns 458 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: that we don't often see. 459 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 3: All Right, Thomas's case first came to our attention because 460 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 3: he wrote to us, but the context in which he 461 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 3: wrote to us was a little bit different. There had 462 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 3: been several people at that point who had been exonerated 463 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: based on DNA tests done on evidence like little tiny 464 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: clippings of evidence, clippings of Q tips, clippings of underwear 465 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 3: clothing that had been saved by a particular analyst at 466 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 3: Virginia's Department of Forensic Science. After a few of those exonerations. 467 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 3: Then Virginia Governor Mark Warner ordered the State Crime Lab 468 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 3: to do DNA testing in every single case between nineteen 469 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 3: seventy three and nineteen eighty nine where there was physical 470 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 3: evidence saved in these files. The Lab sent out of 471 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 3: letters to people who had been convicted and who now 472 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: had DNA testing happening in their cases, and I was 473 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 3: listed as the contact person in those letters. So he 474 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 3: already wrote to me as a potential DNA case. But 475 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: then I got a call from a Richmond Times Dispatch 476 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 3: reporter named Frank Green who said, there's a case you 477 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 3: got to jump on. It's this guy, Thomas Hainsworth. I 478 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 3: covered his trial. I also covered the trial of the 479 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 3: guy who did it. Frank had gotten hold of the 480 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 3: DNA reports in the case, and it was one of 481 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 3: the three cases where Thomas had been convicted. The DNA 482 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: excluded Thomas as the perpetrator and linked to Leon Davis 483 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 3: as the perpetrator, and this was great news for Thomas. 484 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 3: But the problem was that we only had DNA in 485 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 3: one of the three cases where Thomas was convicted. What 486 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: we did have was potential DNA in the case where 487 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 3: Thomas had been acquitted. So we worked with the Richmond 488 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: Commonwealth's Attorney to get that evidence tested, and once again 489 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 3: it cleared Thomas and linked to Leon Davis. 490 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: Wow, and it would seem like this is where things 491 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: should have just opened up for Thomas, that he should 492 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: have been right on his way out of there, right, 493 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: But unfortunately that's just not the way this played out. 494 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 3: So at that point, what we had was five rapes 495 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 3: and sexual assaults in a five week period that everyone 496 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 3: thought were committed by the same person, and we know 497 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 3: concretely that two were committed by Leon Das for most people, logically, 498 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 3: that gets you to a place where you say, well, 499 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,959 Speaker 3: Leon Davis did the rest of these crimes, right, everyone 500 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 3: thought they were the same person. But that kind of 501 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 3: deduction is an evidence, right. So even though at that 502 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 3: point the Richmond Commonwealth's Attorney thought Thomas was innocent, the 503 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: Virginia Attorney General hen Kuchinelli, a very right wing conservative, 504 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 3: was on the way to thinking Thomas was innocent. You 505 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 3: can't prove anything in court that way. What you have 506 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 3: to do is go to the Virginia Court of Appeals 507 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: and file something very legal sounding called a writ of 508 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: actual innocence, and you have to have proof, so we 509 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 3: did a couple of different things to try to get 510 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 3: us there. Thomas took polygraph tests, one for the Richmond 511 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 3: crimes that he was convicted of and one for the 512 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 3: Henriko County crime he was convicted of. Passed both with 513 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: flying colors. Of course, we don't necessarily believe too much 514 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 3: in the reliability of polygraph tests, but it was something 515 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 3: that the prosecutors could use to sort of justify why 516 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 3: they believed in Thomas's innocence. And then what we had 517 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: was the similarities between the crimes. So we worked with 518 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 3: the Attorney General's Office and the Commonwealth Attorney to meticulously 519 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 3: document all of the similarities between the crimes that we 520 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: knew Leon Davis had committed and the remaining convictions on 521 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: Thomas's record, and using all of that, we filed a 522 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: rid of actual innocence in the Court of Appeals and 523 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: I think February of twenty eleven, so Thomas was still 524 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 3: in prison, we were able to get him paroled and 525 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 3: released unfortunately as a sex offender. While the case was pending. 526 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: We had an oral argument in March of twenty eleven, 527 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: and again there was no one opposing Thomas's exoneration except 528 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 3: the court. That oral argument did not go well. It 529 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: was pretty clear that the court just didn't believe we 530 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: had met the burden we were supposed to meet in 531 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: the case. In the summer of twenty eleven, the Court 532 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: of Appeals came back to us and said, all of 533 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 3: the judges on the court want to sit for another 534 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 3: oral argument in this case. And at the time, in 535 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 3: order to win a rid of actual innocence, you had 536 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 3: to prove by clear and convincing evidence that no rational 537 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 3: trier of fact could find proof of guilt beyond a 538 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 3: reasonable doubt. And that is, to anyone normal out there, 539 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 3: that just sounds like a bunch of like legal legal, 540 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 3: legal boring. It's about as highest standard as you can have. 541 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: So we did that oral argument. Thankfully, six of the 542 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 3: ten judges ultimately agreed that Thomas deserved to have his 543 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 3: convictions overturned and to be exonerated. So we won by 544 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 3: six to four. But to put that in perspective, we 545 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 3: only won by one vote in a case where the 546 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 3: Attorney General's office agreed with us, which is pretty extraordinary. 547 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: Pretty terrifying, actually, I mean it's absolutely terrifying. Yeah, I mean, 548 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: you almost lost. In other words, with overwhelming evidence of innocence, 549 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: the attorney General, prosecutors, everybody going, hey, guess what, this 550 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: was a mistake. Here, a terrible mistake. This guy's innocent, 551 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: and yet you won by one vote. I mean, this 552 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: is well, this is. 553 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 3: What happens when you have bad laws. So many exonerations 554 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 3: depend on just having a decent person on the other 555 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 3: side who's gonna wink and nod when the bad laws 556 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 3: in front of them, And that's not what happens in Virginia. 557 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 3: Winking and nodding doesn't work, so you're stuck with the 558 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 3: bad law. 559 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: So, Thomas, from your perspective, finally you've got a fantastic 560 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: team and all the things are lining up. Everybody's starting 561 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,719 Speaker 1: to acknowledge what you've been saying all along, that you're innocent. 562 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: But you're finally freed with all these conditions. You got 563 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: to wear an ankle monitor, you're on the sex offender registry. 564 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: What was it like to walk out into the light, 565 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: even with all those sort of caveats and restrictions. 566 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 5: It was frustrated. I mean I would have to. 567 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 4: Be out, just come home, get on the bat. I 568 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 4: wanted to this because I was paying attentional and you 569 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 4: come home and be back with your family. 570 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 5: When I first came home, I had to meet with 571 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 5: one of my probation office. I think Sean was with me. 572 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 4: I knew damn high condition because I was still, you know, 573 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 4: a regular sex offender. 574 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 5: I didn't have no problem with that. 575 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 4: You know, I'm gonna apply to the law, and I'm 576 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 4: gonna be obedient to the law what I got to 577 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 4: do to maintain my freedom. But when she told me 578 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 4: that if I choose to date somebody, I had to 579 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 4: bring in person down before she could meet them and 580 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 4: she could tell. 581 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 5: Them what I'm locked up for. 582 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 4: You know, while my cues are and I looked at Sean, 583 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 4: and I told Sean I had more freedom in rites 584 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 4: and prison I had on the street. It was a 585 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 4: little bit hard getting adjusted to it, because really, you home, 586 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 4: you got all the conditions, still leave as a sex 587 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 4: offender and still convict the feather. You still ain't even 588 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 4: really free. For me, I couldn't go nowhere. I had 589 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 4: to be in the house by five o'clock. I couldn't 590 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 4: go out the house after that. I couldn't leave one 591 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 4: hundred feet from my house. I had this mom so 592 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 4: I had the word round my leg and I had 593 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 4: this big wad you had to put in my pocket contraction, 594 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 4: and it was frustrated when I told Sean, look, we 595 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 4: got to get this over. I'm tired of the rest 596 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 4: of six offenom signed the feather, you know, I just 597 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 4: want this over and done. 598 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: Now we get to the best part, which is that 599 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, ten years ago, when you were freed 600 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: and then finally you were exonerated, formally exonerated, cut that 601 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: ankle bracelet off, and Governor Bob McDonald signed legislation which 602 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: provided you with compensation as well, which is unfortunately most 603 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: exogneries never get compensation. But I'm really glad that you did. 604 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't nearly enough, but at least it gave you 605 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: a chance to get started, I would say, with a 606 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: new life. So what was it like when you finally 607 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: were vindicated. 608 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 4: It's something that I've strived to do since day one, 609 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 4: just to prove my innocative. I mean Sean and Kean Kuchen, 610 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 4: you know, they did an outstand the child. I couldn't 611 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 4: ask nothing out. I mean, just being literated, being back 612 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 4: and getting clams off my back, getting my name stored 613 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 4: that be the person that you know. You all not 614 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 4: be who they want you to be, the bravest monster 615 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 4: that me portrayed me to be. 616 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 5: That's how I want, you know. Once I got my. 617 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: Name clear, none have to matter. In a day, she 618 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 4: called me and say you want sixty four. I didn't 619 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 4: care like she said. We're one by one folk and 620 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 4: I did a function one time and one of the 621 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 4: judges who went against me, he got there, spoke and 622 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 4: he got them. 623 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 5: He looked at me, sir Thomas, I'm sorry, I got 624 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 5: it wrong. 625 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 4: I went against you. I told him, hey, I don't 626 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 4: want no girls against you. What happened, happy, and I'm free. 627 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 4: That's all that matters. 628 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:32,959 Speaker 3: That calls one of the best calls I've ever gotten 629 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 3: to make. 630 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 1: So now we turned to my favorite part of the show, 631 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: which is called closing arguments. And closing Arguments is part 632 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: of the show where I first of all, thank both 633 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: of you again, Sean Armbers from the mid Atlantic Innocence 634 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: Project and Thomas Haynesworth for sharing your incredible stories here 635 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: today and just for being who you are in the world. 636 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: Because I can't even describe how much respect I have 637 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: for each of you for them reasons. And with that, 638 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: here's how closing arguments works. I'm going to turn off 639 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: my microphone, kick back in my chair and leave my 640 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: headphones on, probably close my eyes, and just listen to 641 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: whatever else you want to share with our audience. Let's 642 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: start with you, Sean, and save the man Thomas Haynesworth 643 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: for the final closing argument. 644 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 3: So what I want to say is that sometimes people 645 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 3: listen to these stories and hear them as proof that 646 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 3: the system works. They hear them as proof that, well, 647 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 3: we got it wrong, but eventually we did get it right. 648 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 3: And in every single one of these cases that I 649 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 3: have worked on, every exoneration I've seen has been an 650 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 3: example of the system actually not working the way it 651 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 3: was intended to work. Innocent people getting out is the 652 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 3: opposite of what's supposed to happen. There's an extraordinary confluence 653 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 3: of circumstances that has to happen to even put someone 654 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 3: in a position to be exonerated. Mary Jane Burton, the 655 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 3: lab technician of the Department of Front Sciences, had to 656 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 3: decide that she was going to be the analyst who 657 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 3: kept random clippings of stuff in her files. She had 658 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 3: to be assigned to Thomas's case. Three other people had 659 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 3: to be exonerated. The governor had to order testing in 660 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 3: those cases, the lab had to agree to notify people, 661 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 3: and that person had to be me, and Thomas had 662 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 3: to be Thomas. All of those things had to happen 663 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 3: just to put Thomas in a position to even prove 664 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 3: his innocence, and then from there. The scariest thing to 665 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 3: me about Thomas's case is that the standard to actually 666 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 3: win was so high that the court wasn't necessarily wrong 667 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 3: that we should lose. That's how high it was, even 668 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 3: in a case where innocence is as obvious as Thomas's, 669 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 3: and we won anyway. And so his freedom isn't the 670 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 3: result of anything going the way it was supposed to. 671 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 3: It was really the result of everything going the opposite 672 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 3: of the way it's. 673 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 5: Designed to work. 674 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 3: So for all of you out here who are taking 675 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 3: the time to learn about this issue, which is super 676 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 3: important and one of the many reasons why I think 677 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 3: Jason is a national treasure, try to remember that changing 678 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 3: that system is absolutely crucial if we really are going 679 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 3: to try to protect people who get convicted of things 680 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 3: they didn't do. 681 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 2: Thomas over to you, yeah. 682 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 4: I just want to say to the any surpriject that 683 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 4: Sean I should appreciate the hard way did y'all do? 684 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 5: Fore the New feel and all them. I can't speak 685 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 5: for having more about their surproject. 686 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 4: I just want to say to people, whatever you're going through, 687 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 4: you feel you've been wrong convicted wrong because don't give 688 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 4: up stand on your brand. You know if you don't 689 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 4: give up a BIS, you will overcome. If you know 690 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 4: anybody who'll be wrong, speak up for them. I'm living 691 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 4: the best life. Things ain't turning where I want them, 692 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 4: but it ain't turn out batter for me, and I 693 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 4: just want you to keep chinue to stride, don't give 694 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 4: your claim but to be right standing, your innocent and 695 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 4: they's stand up for yourself. 696 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 697 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn, 698 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis. With research by Lyla Robinson. The music 699 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 700 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 701 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 702 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction as well as at Lava 703 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: for Good on all three platforms. You can also follow 704 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. 705 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good podcast 706 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one