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Speaker 4: Hey Daniel, how do you like your coffee?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I like it very dark, basically black.

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Speaker 4: What about your chocolate?

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Speaker 1: Also pretty dark? Maybe like ninety five percent?

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Speaker 4: What about your wine? How do you drink your wine?

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Speaker 1: Well? I like a pretty dark cabernet.

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Speaker 4: Actually, now, are you optimistic about the fate of humanity?

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll be honest until we start dismantling more

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Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. I have a pretty dark view of our future.

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Speaker 4: You're kind of a dark physicist. Maybe you should lighten

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Speaker 4: it up a little, you know, try some dessert, wine,

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Speaker 4: some rose, maybe maybe even some white chocolate.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, man, we live in a dark universe

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Speaker 1: where dominated by dark matter, dark energy, and dark chocolate.

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Speaker 4: M you know what Yoda says, once you go into

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Speaker 4: the dark side, forever your destiny, will it dominate?

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Speaker 1: Do you think Yoda liked dark chocolate.

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Speaker 4: I always knew you were a dark physicist. Daniel, Hi,

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Speaker 4: I am Poorhemmade, cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor.

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Speaker 1: You see, Irvine and white chocolate is not chocolate.

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Speaker 4: It is chocolate. Then it's made from chocolate.

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Speaker 1: Made from chocolate, not the same as chocolate.

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Speaker 4: You just don't like it, You just don't want to

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Speaker 4: categorize it as chocolate. But scientifically, I think if you

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Speaker 4: asked a you know, chemist, they would say it it's chocolate.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it doesn't have any cocoa

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Speaker 1: in it. It can't be chocolate doesn't taste like chocolate.

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Speaker 1: You know, white chocolate is chocolate the same way deep

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Speaker 1: dish pizza is pizza.

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Speaker 4: Oh I see, But you do know it's made from chocolate, right.

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Speaker 4: I think it uses like the cocoa butter from chocolate beans.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sort of like hangs around when chocolate is

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Speaker 1: made and sort of calls itself chocolate. It's like nearby

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Speaker 1: it's chocolate and cheese. Give it that much.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, how can it be adjacent if it comes

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Speaker 4: from chocolate, Daniel, I think you're stretching things a little

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Speaker 4: bit here.

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Speaker 1: My kids are like eighty percent coming from chocolate, but

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Speaker 1: they're not chocolate, right, m.

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Speaker 4: You should be more candy inclusive. Tenning.

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Speaker 1: White chocolate's delicious. It's just not chocolate.

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Speaker 4: But welcome to our podcast. Daniel and jorhead the Bait Chocolate,

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Speaker 4: apparently for an hour instead of talking about physics and

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Speaker 4: Explain the Universe.

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Speaker 1: In which we explore all the questions out there, the

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Speaker 1: dark ones, the white ones, the milky ones, all the

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Speaker 1: questions of the universe that are rattling around in your

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Speaker 1: brain and in hours the questions that make us human,

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Speaker 1: the questions that make us wonder why the universe is

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Speaker 1: this way and not some other way? Could it have

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Speaker 1: been this way? Did it have to turn out in

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Speaker 1: this particular manner? What are the rules of this universe?

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Speaker 1: And is it possible for them to make sense to us?

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Speaker 1: And is it possible for Daniel and Jorge to explain

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Speaker 1: them to you in less than an hour?

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Speaker 4: While eating chocolates? Apparently, but only dark or milk? What

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Speaker 4: about milk chocolate? Are you a fan of milk chocolate?

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Speaker 1: Milk chocolate is chocolate, but I'm not a fan.

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Speaker 4: I see, man, there are different categories here of exclusion

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Speaker 4: for you.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I got a whole matrix going here.

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Speaker 4: But it is an amazing and beautiful and sometimes even

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Speaker 4: delicious universe, full of amazing mysteries, in tantalizing questions to

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Speaker 4: answer and discover out there, and fortunately humans are here

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Speaker 4: for all of it, to answer these questions and to

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Speaker 4: wonder about the amazing things that are out there.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and one of the most basic questions we

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Speaker 1: ask about the universe is just what's in it? What's

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Speaker 1: out there in the universe? Sharing this cosmos with us.

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Speaker 1: There's this sense that if you could like make an

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Speaker 1: accounting of all the stuff, all the forces in the matter,

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Speaker 1: and all the particles in the universe, you'd get a

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Speaker 1: sense for why the universe is the way that it

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Speaker 1: is the way. For example, if you'd like look at

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Speaker 1: the ingredients of a pizza, you can get a sense for,

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Speaker 1: like what makes a pizza a pizza.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because for thousands of years, we thought that, you know,

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Speaker 4: the stuff that we were made out of was all

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Speaker 4: there was two stuff, you know, the electrons and quarks

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Speaker 4: and protons and neutrons that we're made out of. We

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Speaker 4: thought that was the whole thing that was in the universe.

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Speaker 4: But actually it turns out that most of the universe

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Speaker 4: is made out of something else, something dark and mysterious.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And the history of physics is these waves of realization,

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Speaker 1: discovering that we are not at the center of the universe,

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Speaker 1: we are not at the center of the Solar system,

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Speaker 1: we are not really at the center of anything. And

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Speaker 1: then discovering that our kind of matter is not even

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Speaker 1: that special, that we make up a tiny little fraction

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Speaker 1: of this incredible universe.

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Speaker 4: Pizza, Oh boy, Daniel, are you saying we are universe adjacent.

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Speaker 4: We're not really part of the universe. We're not really

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Speaker 4: universe material.

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Speaker 1: We're sort of dark matter adjacent, right, We're around when

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Speaker 1: the dark matter formed all this structure. We sort of

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Speaker 1: like we're followers, but we're not dark matter. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Do you think there's some snob gourmet out of a

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Speaker 4: universe eater out there judging us talking down about humanity

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Speaker 4: and all the stars and planets and galaxies in the universe,

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Speaker 4: saying that's not real universe?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I hope. So, I hope that there are some

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Speaker 1: dark aliens out there made of dark matter with their

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Speaker 1: incredibly dark dark chocolate made of dark mats matter, and

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Speaker 1: they're looking at our dark chocolate. They're like, huh, that's ridiculous.

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess the good news is they're not going

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Speaker 4: to eat us, because if there's anobby about it, like

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Speaker 4: you are white chocolate, that's good news for the white chocolate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here you go. You can turn anything and do

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Speaker 1: positive news. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but there is a lot of dark matter in

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Speaker 4: the universe. In fact, it's most of the stuff in

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Speaker 4: the universe is dark matter. Of the stuff in the universe, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, that's right. Even though we can't see it directly,

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Speaker 1: we can tell that dark matter is there, that it's

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Speaker 1: a thing that is affecting the whole shape of the universe.

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Speaker 1: It affected their universe early on in its little wiggles

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Speaker 1: and jiggles. It affected the formation of structure in the universe.

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Speaker 1: It even shapes how galaxies spin today. So we know

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Speaker 1: that it's there, and we know that it's out there,

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Speaker 1: and we know that it dominates the universe in terms

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Speaker 1: of like the budget of the universe is mostly dark matter,

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Speaker 1: not what we used to call normal matter I e. US.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's something like, what's the exact budget percentage of

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Speaker 4: dark matter in the universe compared to the regular stuff

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Speaker 4: we're made out of.

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Speaker 1: It's about five to one dark matter to.

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Speaker 4: Normal matter, right, So then that's like eighty percent of

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Speaker 4: the universe is sort of dark matter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, eighty percent of the universe. So you could almost

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Speaker 1: neglect our part of the universe and you still get

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Speaker 1: a B on your exam.

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Speaker 4: A B for bueno.

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Speaker 1: That's right, bueno baryons exactly. Yeah, you could ignore all

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Speaker 1: the atoms in the universe and that would only be

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Speaker 1: five percent of the energy in the universe, or twenty

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Speaker 1: percent of the matter in the universe. So in some sense,

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Speaker 1: the question what is the universe made out of? What

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Speaker 1: is all this crazy stuff? Tells you that what we're

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Speaker 1: made out of is not a big part of it,

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Speaker 1: is not a central element in the structure of the universe.

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Speaker 4: Right, And just to clarify, most of this stuff and

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Speaker 4: energy in the universe is dark energy, which is something

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Speaker 4: totally different. But if we're just talking about stuff like matter,

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Speaker 4: things that feel gravity, then most of it is dark matter.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The matter portion of the universe is about

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Speaker 1: thirty percent, and of that thirty percent, eighty percent of

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Speaker 1: that thirty percent is dark matter. So of the matter

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Speaker 1: portion of the universe, eighty percent of it is dark matter.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's pretty amazing. It's almost like most of the

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Speaker 4: stuff in the universe is this other stuff called dark matter,

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Speaker 4: but we don't know actually what it is, right, It's

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Speaker 4: pretty mysterious. We've only know it's there, we haven't actually

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Speaker 4: seen it directly because it's dark.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a great story. You know. I got

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Speaker 1: into physics for exactly these kinds of realizations, discovering that

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Speaker 1: the universe out there is not the one that you

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Speaker 1: thought it was, or that scientists and deep thinkers for

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Speaker 1: thousands of years hadn't known the true picture of the universe.

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Speaker 1: You know. Physics is this incredible technique to like reveal

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Speaker 1: the truth about the universe, to methodically build up knowledge

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Speaker 1: and tell us what's actually out there. So for it

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Speaker 1: to discover something shocking like an enormous plot twist, like wow,

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Speaker 1: it turns out most of the stuff in the universe

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Speaker 1: out there is something you never heard about or thought

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Speaker 1: about or felt before. That's fantastic and it's exactly the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing that I hope happens, you know, again

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Speaker 1: and again, overturning everything we thought we knew about the universe.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we know you went into physics for dark reasons, Daniel.

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Speaker 5: This is.

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Speaker 1: That hits pretty close to home, given that a group

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Speaker 1: in Los Almos where they invented nuclear weapons which are

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Speaker 1: now being used to threaten genocide against civilian populations. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that one stings a little bit.

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Speaker 4: But it might save humanity. Even if the meteor ever

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Speaker 4: comes towards Earth and we you know, break it up

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Speaker 4: with nuclear weapons, then your parents would be heroes.

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Speaker 1: There, you go, all right, So in some scenario, we

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Speaker 1: are saving the Earth instead of destroying it.

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Speaker 4: You know, you apply the quantum physics principle. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's all true. It's just the different probabilities. There's a

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Speaker 4: little white chocolate lining to that dark chocolate cloud. Oh no,

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Speaker 4: that ruins it for you though.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't taste as good, but it goes down easier. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So most of the stuff in the universe is

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Speaker 4: made out of dark matter, and so it kind of

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Speaker 4: makes you wonder if that's all that's dark in the universe,

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Speaker 4: could there be other things in the universe that we're

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Speaker 4: not seeing or that we can't see.

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Speaker 1: And it's certainly true that most of the universe are

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Speaker 1: things that you cannot see directly. If you look out

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Speaker 1: in front of you, the information that's coming to you

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Speaker 1: is just from photons, and photons can only interact with

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Speaker 1: things that have electric charges. For example, there are particles

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Speaker 1: flying right in front of you right now that you

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Speaker 1: cannot see, billions of neutrinos coming from the Sun raining

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Speaker 1: down constantly in every square centimeter per second, but they're

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Speaker 1: invisible to you. So the true universe out there, the

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Speaker 1: actual reality of the universe outside your skull, is vastly

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Speaker 1: different from the tiny slice of it that you can see.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because if we can't see eighty percent of the

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Speaker 4: stuff in the universe, it kind of makes me wonder

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Speaker 4: what else it's doing or what else it can do,

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Speaker 4: like is it maybe radiating dark forces or dark light?

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Speaker 1: Exactly? Because our kind of matter does all sorts of

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Speaker 1: complicated things. It doesn't just sit there right. It shoots

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Speaker 1: off photons at each other. It has electromagnetic forces and

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Speaker 1: strong forces and weak forces, and forms complicated things like

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Speaker 1: ice cream and pizza and chocolate, and so a natural

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Speaker 1: question is what's going on with the dark matter? What

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Speaker 1: else can it do? Can it interact with itself in

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Speaker 1: some way?

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Speaker 4: So to be able to we'll be asking the question

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Speaker 4: what is dark radiation? Now, Daniel, this sort of sounds

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Speaker 4: like an oxymoron, you know, you're almost asking like what

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Speaker 4: is not light light?

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Speaker 1: Exactly? But this is the kind of game we play

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Speaker 1: in physics all the time. We don't really know how

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Speaker 1: to grapple with the unknown, so we tend to explore

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Speaker 1: it in terms of the known, Like when we think

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Speaker 1: about photons, we don't really know how to deal with

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Speaker 1: the quantum objects. We say, is it a particle, is

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Speaker 1: it a wave. It's kind of both, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: the same. It's a contradiction there, right, And so here

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Speaker 1: that's what we're doing. We're saying, well, we know about photons,

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Speaker 1: is there like another kind of like dark matter version

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Speaker 1: of the photon. We're extrapolating from what we know into

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Speaker 1: what we don't know.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, well, it sounds like the plot device for a

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Speaker 4: great science for your novel or the next Marvel movie.

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Speaker 4: You know, dark radiation. That's how you know Steven Strange

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Speaker 4: gets his powers or something.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And if there are like what ten avengers

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Speaker 1: made of normal matter, there should be like, you know,

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Speaker 1: forty avengers made of dark matter, the dark avengers.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, they can make another gazillion dark billion of dollars.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and my one percent cut of that is

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Speaker 1: going to be pretty sweet.

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Speaker 4: Hopefully not you don't like sweet things, dang dark chocolate.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, it'll be pretty dark. Pile up those dark dollars

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Speaker 1: my dark bank account.

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Speaker 4: Only pay Daniel with bitter dollars.

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Speaker 1: We should start some sort of dark matter currency.

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Speaker 4: That's right, dark chocolate coin.

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Speaker 1: But it is a real question in physics, what is

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Speaker 1: going on with the dark matter. Is it interacting with itself?

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Speaker 1: Are dark matter particles shooting dark photons at each other?

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Speaker 1: We just don't know.

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Speaker 4: It is a dark question, and so as usual, we

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Speaker 4: were wondering how many people out there had thought about

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Speaker 4: this question or even know what these two words put

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Speaker 4: together could mean. So, as usual, Daniel went out there

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Speaker 4: into the internet to ask people what is dark radiation?

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Speaker 1: And I'm very grateful to those of you who volunteered

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Speaker 1: to try to answer this question without having the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to look it up or Google or get a PhD

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Speaker 1: in physics first, And so thank you to all of

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Speaker 1: those of you who volunteered. And if you would like

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Speaker 1: to hear your voice speculating baselessly on the podcast, please

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Speaker 1: don't be shy. Write to me two questions at Danielandjorge

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 4: Has anyone tried that? They're like, oh, that's a great question,

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Speaker 4: give me a seven years so I'll come back with

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Speaker 4: a PhD and answer it. Or is that what you

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Speaker 4: do to your grad students every day?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I take the answers people give me. I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a good idea for a project, and then I

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Speaker 1: go write a grain proposal based on.

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Speaker 4: It nice and then you get dark bitter money for it.

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Speaker 1: And my grad students spend dark bitter years working on it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 5: When I think of radiation, I think of waves being

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Speaker 5: omitted from something, so that could be heat radiation, or

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Speaker 5: it could be light radiation. And even when something is

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Speaker 5: invisible light to humans radiation, it's still quote unquote light.

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Speaker 5: So dark radiation I imagine I think it as to

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Speaker 5: do with dark energy.

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Speaker 6: Probably I have to give all credit to niodagrass Tyson

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Speaker 6: for why I know this. But dark radiation is the

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Speaker 6: mediator of dark matter particle interaction.

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Speaker 1: Say that five times fast.

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Speaker 6: The best analogy for it is it's the dark matter

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Speaker 6: equivalent of a photon.

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Speaker 5: I think dark radiation is radiation coming from dark.

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Speaker 7: Matter right away. It makes me think of dark matter

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Speaker 7: and dark energy, and I know they both interact with

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Speaker 7: regular matter only through gravity, So I would guess that

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Speaker 7: it has something to do with how dark matter radiates

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Speaker 7: away or evaporates in the same manner regular mass does

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Speaker 7: with like a black hole.

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Speaker 4: All Right, some pretty good answers here. Most of the

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Speaker 4: questions I feel like people answered back with some questions too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and people get the sense that it has something

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Speaker 1: to do with dark matter or dark energy, right, because

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Speaker 1: people have this concept that radiation energy, and so maybe

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Speaker 1: it falls into the energy category rather than the dark

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Speaker 1: matter category. So yeah, some great answers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like you've really sort of branded that

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Speaker 4: word dark, like people automatically anything you associated with the

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Speaker 4: word dark, people know it's oh dark matter or dark energy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The funny thing is that the word dark and

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Speaker 1: physics just means we don't know anything about it. It's

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Speaker 1: like hidden from us, something we can't see, and so

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Speaker 1: like the only relationship between dark matter and dark energy

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Speaker 1: really is that we're pretty clueless about both of them.

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Speaker 4: Well, my question is, what's going to happen when you

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Speaker 4: do this cover what it is when you can see it.

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Speaker 4: Do you need to change the name?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great question. It depends, I suppose, on

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Speaker 1: whether it remains dark or not. You know, if we

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Speaker 1: find some way to communicate with the dark sector with

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Speaker 1: these dark particles, then they won't any longer be totally dark.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess it depends specifically on what we

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Speaker 1: figure out about it.

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Speaker 4: Well, you just said that it's you call it dark

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Speaker 4: when you don't know anything about it. So if you

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Speaker 4: do know something about it and can see it, maybe

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Speaker 4: you shouldn't think about changing the name to like, you know,

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Speaker 4: horheam matter or cham matter, you know some suggestions.

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Speaker 1: We'll put that on the list, right next to white

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Speaker 1: chocolate matter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just realize it's kind of a running for

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Speaker 4: a guy named white someon. It sounds like you have

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Speaker 4: some father issues.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, self loathing matter, that's what it is.

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's that's pretty dark.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty dark exactly. I'm gonna go be some more

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Speaker 1: dark chocolate and that'll feel.

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Speaker 4: Better, all right. So Daniel, we're going to answer this question.

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Speaker 4: What is dark radiation? Which is sounds very tantalizing, It

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Speaker 4: sounds cool. It sounds maybe dangerous dark radiation, or maybe

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Speaker 4: dark gradiation is good for you because it's the opposite

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Speaker 4: of regular radiation.

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Speaker 1: It's not like antire radiation. I like that what you

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Speaker 1: need is a dose of dark radiation that'll cure Peter Parker, right,

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Speaker 1: he'll no longer be Spider Man.

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Speaker 4: Fuck the you know, damage right out of you.

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Speaker 1: No, dark radiation is an analog to radiation, but in

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Speaker 1: dark matter, So in our kind of matter. We have,

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Speaker 1: you know, electrons and quarks, and they can radiate things

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Speaker 1: like photons because there are forces between these particles, and

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Speaker 1: so dark radiation would imagine that between dark matter particles,

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Speaker 1: there I'd be some new dark force, and that new

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Speaker 1: dark force would be capable of generating dark radiation.

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Speaker 4: But you know, I think technically in physics you use

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Speaker 4: the word radiation for basically any particle, any quantum particle

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Speaker 4: moving in a quantum field, right, I think that's isn't

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Speaker 4: that the technical definition?

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we're not totally consistent when we talk about radiation.

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Speaker 1: When we talk about radiation sort of chemically like what

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Speaker 1: is producing radiation? That can include things like photons, but also,

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Speaker 1: as you say, high energy particles. Here, when we talk

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Speaker 1: about radiation and we distinguish it from matter, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the particles that are associated with forces rather than

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Speaker 1: the particles that are associated with matter. So for example,

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Speaker 1: a photon would be radiation, whereas a quark would be matter.

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Speaker 1: Even if a quark moving at high speed, a chemist

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Speaker 1: would call it radiation.

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Speaker 4: Oh I see, So if we're going with the chemist definition,

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Speaker 4: then radiation is just any particle moving kind of But

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Speaker 4: if you're going with the Daniel interpretation. Here, radiation just

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Speaker 4: means a force particle or like a particle with a

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Speaker 4: force moving through space. The idea is that maybe dark

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Speaker 4: matter also produces dark radiation.

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Speaker 1: That's the idea, and it's a really interesting area to

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Speaker 1: study because you know, we don't know what's going on

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Speaker 1: with dark matter. We just know that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of it in the universe. But it's tempting to extrapolate

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Speaker 1: from the kind of matter that we have, right, the

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Speaker 1: kind of matter we have does all sorts of interesting

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Speaker 1: crazy stuff. It feels forces, it forms complex objects like

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Speaker 1: ice cream and chocolate and pizza. So we don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going on with the dark matter. There's various possibilities

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Speaker 1: all the way from like it's totally inert it feels

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Speaker 1: no forces, It just sort of sits there and feels gravity.

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Speaker 1: Two it has like seventy five new forces we haven't

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Speaker 1: even imagined. They're capable of forming intricate, complex things that

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Speaker 1: would blow our minds. And in that scenario, those forces

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Speaker 1: would be mediated by dark particles, and so those would

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Speaker 1: be dark radiation.

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Speaker 4: Right, Because I think all we know about dark matter

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Speaker 4: is that it sort of looks like it's a big, giant,

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Speaker 4: fuzzy clump. But that's just what we can see of it.

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Speaker 4: It could be something really detailed and organized. We just

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Speaker 4: have a very unfocused view of it.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And that's because so far, our only way

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Speaker 1: to learn things about dark matter, to interact with dark

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Speaker 1: matter so is to figure out like where it is

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Speaker 1: and what it's doing is through gravity. Gravity is the

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Speaker 1: weakest force in the universe we've discovered, and not by

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but by like ten to the thirty six.

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Speaker 1: It's like super duper crazy week. So it's like trying

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Speaker 1: to look at dark matter, but you're looking through very

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Speaker 1: very dark glasses, so you can just barely see it.

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Speaker 1: You can only see huge clumps of it, and that

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Speaker 1: gives us a very fuzzy view of what's going on.

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Speaker 4: Wait, the glasses are made out of dark matter. I'm

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Speaker 4: a little confused here.

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Speaker 1: They filter dark radiation.

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Speaker 4: I think you mean like fuzzy glasses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, gla yes, yeah, all.

438
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 4: Right, Well, maybe for the people who are not familiar

439
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 4: with dark matter, maybe give us a quick refresher of

440
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 4: what it is and how we know it's there.

441
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 1: So we don't know that much about dark matter but

442
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,639
Speaker 1: we do know that it makes up most of the

443
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: stuff in the universe, and it's some kind of matter,

444
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: which we mean that it provides gravity. And you know,

445
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: we invented the idea of dark matter to explain why

446
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: there was gravity in the universe that we couldn't otherwise explain. So,

447
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: for example, we see that galaxies are rotating really really fast,

448
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 1: and there's apparently enough gravity to hold them together to

449
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: keep the stars from going out into interstellar space being

450
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: tossed out. But we can't explain where that gravity is

451
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: coming from, so we say probably dark matter. And if

452
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 1: we want to understand the structure of the universe, how

453
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 1: it got to have these galaxies and these superclusters and

454
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. If you run a simulation of

455
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: the universe without dark matter, then it just doesn't form

456
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: galaxies and stars this quickly. You need more gravity to

457
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: pull that stuff together. So we need dark matter not

458
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 1: just to explain how galaxies are spinning, but also the

459
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: whole structure of the universe. And if we look in

460
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: the very early or beginnings of the universe, and we

461
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: see like how wiggles in the first plasma of the

462
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: universe formed, and how those wiggles propagated. They don't really

463
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: make sense unless you add dark matter to our calculations.

464
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: So we have a lot of evidence that dark matter

465
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: is a thing, that it's out there, that it clumps

466
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: together in these big structures that shaped our whole universe.

467
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: We just don't really know what it's made out of

468
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: other than something that gives gravity.

469
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, we know it's there and it has to be

470
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 4: there to explain what we see. But I think that's

471
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 4: the crazy thing is that we don't know what it is, Like,

472
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 4: we really have no idea, Like it could be a

473
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 4: totally new kind of thing that's not even a particle,

474
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 4: or even something sort of like cohesive. It could be anything, right.

475
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've done a lot of podcast episodes diving

476
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: into some of those examples. So the mainstream idea is

477
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 1: a weekly interacting massive particle that's sort of like, you know,

478
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 1: a generic idea like what's the simplest possible explanation for

479
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: dark matter? But there's lots of other more exotic and

480
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: fascinating ideas, from things like axions, these weird heavy photons,

481
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,199
Speaker 1: to things like primordial black holes formed very very early

482
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: in the universe, to things like super duper long wave

483
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: photons by dark stars. So we just don't really know

484
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: what it is, and as you say, it might not

485
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: even be a particle. It might be that this whole

486
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: idea of particles and fields and quantum forces only applies

487
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 1: to the little bit of the universe that we've been

488
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: studying for the last few hundred years, and that you

489
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: can't extrapolate to the rest of the universe the same

490
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: way you can't, like look at an elephant's tail and

491
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: assume the rest of the elephant is like the tail.

492
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: So it might be that we have dramatic mind blowing

493
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: lessons to be learned about dark matter, or it could

494
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 1: be super boring and just be one particle that doesn't

495
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: do anything.

496
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 4: Some pretty extreme possibilities there. But are you saying that, like,

497
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 4: maybe even quantum mechanics only applies to a small part

498
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 4: of the universe.

499
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: I think that's true. Yeah. All of the tests that

500
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: we've done of quantum mechanics use our kind of matter

501
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: and our kind of forces, and so we have a

502
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: pretty good quantum description of quantum particles, but we don't

503
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: really have a quantum description of gravity. And gravity is

504
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: our portal to dark matter. The only thing we know

505
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: about dark matter is that it does feel gravity, and

506
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: so be some other new, weird kind of thing that

507
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: generates gravity but doesn't otherwise follow the rules of quantum mechanics.

508
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 4: WHOA all right, so that's dark matter. Now, what would

509
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,360
Speaker 4: you say is a dark force? Besides the obvious Star Wars.

510
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: Reference, a dark force would be anybody who tries to

511
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: force me to eat white chocolate, the dark force in

512
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 1: my life. Now, a dark force would be in the

513
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: assumption that dark matter is made of particles that follow

514
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: the rules of quantum mechanics, like our particles, then you

515
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: might imagine that they also feel some dark forces between them.

516
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: You know that two dark matter particles can exchange some

517
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: like dark photon or dark z boson or dark higgs boson,

518
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: that they can push or pull on each other. They

519
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: can do more than just feel each other's gravity. Maybe

520
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: there's some additional dark forces, and they're passing particles back

521
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: and forth as a way to mediate those forces.

522
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 4: Right, because even the matter in our universe is sort

523
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 4: of selective about which forces it feels or which they

524
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: give out, right, Like some particles in our type of

525
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 4: matter only feel like promagnetic forces, or they don't feel

526
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 4: the strong force and things like that.

527
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: Right, that's exactly right. Neutrinos, for example, only feel the

528
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 1: weak force. They ignore the strong force. They ignore electromagnetism.

529
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: Electrons they do feel electromagnetism and the weak force, but

530
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: they ignore the strong force. Only the quarks feel all

531
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: of the forces, including the strong force, And so for

532
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: an individual particle, you can ask, like whether it has

533
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: a charge for that force. So electromagnetism only interacts with

534
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: particles that have electric charges. For example, we know that

535
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: dark matter doesn't have electric charges and it doesn't have

536
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: weak charges or it doesn't have strong charges, but it

537
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: might have charges for other forces we haven't yet discovered.

538
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 4: Wow, Like, there could be a whole different category of

539
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 4: forces that we just don't happen to feel in our

540
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 4: kind of matter, but that maybe dark matter does feel.

541
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: Exactly So there could be like one or forty new

542
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: forces that we haven't yet discovered because our particles don't

543
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: feel those, or maybe more, not just forty, maybe four

544
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: thousand exactly.

545
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 4: All right, Well, let's dig into what this new kind

546
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 4: of force might be, this dark force, and what it

547
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 4: could all mean and whether or not we can ever

548
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 4: hope to see it or feel it. But first let's

549
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 4: take a quick break.

550
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,159
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Speaker 4: All right, we're talking about dark gred and in this case,

619
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: the word radiation sort of is associated with the word force.

620
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 4: So really we're asking does dark matter feel dark forces

621
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 4: that maybe are out there, but that we in our

622
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: kind of matter can feel or touch or detect. But

623
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 4: then maybe is maybe organizing dark matter into structures or

624
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 4: maybe you know, even making dark matter particles in atoms.

625
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: Exactly, And it's part of this imagination game we play,

626
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, we wonder what's going on out there in

627
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: the dark universe. Is it simple, is it fascinating, is

628
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: it complex? What is going on? What is there out

629
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: there to learn? And usually when we go out and

630
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: explore the universe, we find that things are crazier and

631
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: more fascinating and richer than we ever imagined. And so

632
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: we're at this point where we really don't know about

633
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: most of the universe. But at some point in the future,

634
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: I hope one hundred years, five hundred years from now,

635
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: we will know what's going on in the dark sector

636
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: and those people will look back at our ideas as ridiculous.

637
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: Probably you might think of us as the dark Ages physics,

638
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: like the really dark ages, not that the trial run

639
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 4: in the Middle Ages, but more serious, Yes, back when

640
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 4: people ate white chocolate. So savages, that's right.

641
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: Maybe we're looking forward to an age of dark Enlightenment, an.

642
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 4: Age of oxymorons. But yeah, So in our kind of matter,

643
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 4: we feel the electromagnetic force, which is what basically holds

644
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 4: our atoms together. And what you know when you touch something,

645
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 4: when you touch the table or you hold the banana,

646
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 4: that's the force you're feeling. And that force is transmitted

647
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 4: by a particle called the photon. So the photon is

648
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: not just lighted. It's also what transmits the electromagnetic force.

649
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: And so the question daniel I guess is does dark

650
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 4: matter have the equivalent of a photon or at least

651
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: an electromagnetic force field.

652
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: We just don't know, and so we're playing this game

653
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: of trying to extrapolate from what we do know. And

654
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: in the same way that we imagine maybe dark matter

655
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: is made of a particle. Because we're made of particles,

656
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: we wonder if there are dark forces that look like

657
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: our forces. And so one of the simplest forces to

658
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: understand is electromagnetism, because it just has like one particle

659
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: and it interacts with lots of stuff. And so a

660
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: simple proposal is to say, well, what if dark matter

661
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: has a dark electromagnetism, meaning a dark photon. This would

662
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: be a particle that has a lot of properties similar

663
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: to our photon, but it would be different. You know,

664
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: those dark matter particles would have like a dark electric charge,

665
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: and the dark photon would only interact with particles with

666
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: a dark electric charge, not ones with our electric charge,

667
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: and our normal vanilla photons wouldn't interact with dark matter

668
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: because they don't have an electric charge, only a dark

669
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: electric charge, but.

670
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 4: It wouldn't necessarily be the same or the sort of

671
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 4: the analog of light, right, you're just saying, like, maybe

672
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 4: it's a force, and why not let's call it the

673
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 4: dark electromagnetic force.

674
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be, and it could be the

675
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: dark matter feels forces that are more similar to like

676
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: our weak force, or forces that are more similar to

677
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: our strong force, or as forces that are totally different

678
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: from these forces and have other new, weird capacities. Right

679
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: before we discover the strong force, who could have imagined

680
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: this crazy force, you know, where it gets stronger as

681
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: things get further apart, and it has like eight different

682
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: kinds of gluons pulling it together. It's bonkers. Nobody would

683
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: have written that into the script. So it's possible that

684
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: there are other kinds of forces. But if there is

685
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: a dark force that's very similar to electromagnetism, then that

686
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: dark photon would have properties very similar to our photon,

687
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: because those properties come from the structure of the force,

688
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: all right.

689
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: And also it makes for a cool name, dark photon.

690
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 4: It kind of trips up your brain, right, like, how

691
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: can a photon which transmits light be dark?

692
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: That's right, because it transmits dark light into dark eyeballs.

693
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 4: I feel like you should maybe just call it something different.

694
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: What would you call it?

695
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 4: The dark on, the invisible, the photon? I don't know

696
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 4: dark on is good? But then what do you find

697
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 4: another force?

698
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have to be even more creative with our names.

699
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: We'll just have, you know, a brainstorming session with lots

700
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: of chocolate, and we'll come up with something good.

701
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 4: And then and then who knows what you'll get at it?

702
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: Maybe a heart attack? All right, So dark matter might

703
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 4: feel this new kind of or strange, new kind of force,

704
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 4: a dark force. So how would we ever detect it?

705
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: Daniel co would ever hope to feel it or you know,

706
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 4: know it's there if we can't touch it or see it.

707
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: So in the end, this question is really asking what

708
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: dark matter does to itself? You know, can we speculate

709
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: about what's going on in the dark sector beyond these

710
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: particles existing? Can they like touch each other and become

711
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: sticky and do stuff? And so we have sort of

712
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: two ways to probe this. The first category is sort

713
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: of like indirect ways to look at it, And broadly speaking,

714
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: we can tell that dark matter is doing things because

715
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: of its gravity, and even though it's not a great

716
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: way to study dark matter, we can use its gravitational

717
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: effects to ask questions like is it clumping, is it

718
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: interacting with itself, because if it interacts with itself, it

719
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: forms sort of different structures that have different gravity. So

720
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: we can sort of ask questions about whether dark matter

721
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: is feeling itself by trying to look to see how

722
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: it organizes itself in the universe.

723
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 4: I see, we can't maybe see it directly or touch

724
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 4: dark matter, but if we can somehow kind of know

725
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 4: what it's doing, and if we see it doing stuff

726
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 4: to itself, then we know that it's there must be

727
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 4: some kind of force that it does interact with exactly.

728
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: For example, if dark matter felt a version of the

729
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: strong force, if it interacted with itself very very strongly

730
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: and could like clump together very in very very sticky ways,

731
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: then it would form much denser objects than we see

732
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: currently in the universe. Currently, dark matter looks really big

733
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: and fluffy, like the dark matter in our galaxy isn't

734
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: nearly as compact as the normal matter in our galaxy.

735
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: It spreads out much further out. It's a big, fluffy cloud,

736
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: hasn't collapsed nearly as much, and we think that's because

737
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: it's not as sticky as our matter. We think that

738
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like a super powerful force that sticks

739
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: it together, because that would help it like form denser

740
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: objects like dark planets and dark stars. So we already

741
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 1: know very broadly something about how dark matter can't feel

742
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: itself because it stays sort of fluffy, doesn't seem to

743
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: clump as much as.

744
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: Normal matter, right, But I wonder, you know, it sort

745
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 4: of looks fluffy to us because we don't have a

746
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 4: good way of seeing it. You know, we talked earlier

747
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 4: about having we kind of have a fuzzy lens when

748
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 4: we look at dark matter because we can only see

749
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 4: it through gravity. You know, is it maybe even possible

750
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 4: that there are dark matter stars out there? We just

751
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 4: don't have the resolution to see them.

752
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: You know, absolutely, there's a very big loophole in this

753
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: argument that you allude to, which is that we can

754
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: see sort of the bulk of dark matter, but we

755
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: can't tell what it's doing in detail. We had an

756
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: episode recently about where is the dark matter? We talked

757
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: about how we can tell sort of that dark matter

758
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: is in these big, fluffy clouds, but we also can't

759
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: really tell if it is forming clumps. So you could

760
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: imagine that dark matter maybe it's made out of a

761
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: few different kinds of things. So most of it, maybe

762
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: like you know, half of the dark matter or three

763
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: fourths of the dark matter, is some big fluffy stuff

764
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: that hardly interacts with itself. But there could be a

765
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: component of the dark matter that does do interesting, complicated

766
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: things and has crazy interactions and forms dark stars and

767
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: dark planets and dark life, and that would not mess

768
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: up the distribution of dark matter, because remember, there's like

769
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: so much dark matter out there that even like if

770
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: a quarter of it does more interesting stuff, that's still

771
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: more than all of our kind of matter. So there's

772
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: plenty of room to have like a component that has

773
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: complex interactions without messing up these constraints about the big

774
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: picture of dark matter.

775
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 4: So I feel like dark matter could be in the

776
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 4: shape of I don't know, like rubber duckies. It's just

777
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 4: that they're sort of distributed out in space, these rubber duckies,

778
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 4: and to us it just seems like a big fluffy cloud.

779
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, most of it has to be pretty big and

780
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: fluffy to form that big fluffy cloud. It can't stick

781
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: to itself, But it could be that inside that big

782
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: fluffy cloud there are like rubber duckies made out of

783
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: like a special kind of dark matter, you know, the

784
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: way that like our matter, there's lots of different kinds.

785
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: There's electrons, there's different kinds of quarks. Right, we have

786
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: twelve different matter particles. Dark matter could have like fifty

787
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: different kinds of particles, and maybe most of them don't

788
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: interact and make a big fluffy cloud, but one or

789
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: two of them form dark ruber duckies that are floating

790
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: out there in the universe, and we couldn't tell the

791
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: difference because the only way we can see them is

792
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: to their overall gravitational interaction.

793
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure that's what dark Vader uses in his

794
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 4: bath though. But I guess the question is, you know,

795
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 4: is in the fact that dark matter does seem to

796
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 4: be sort of fluffy and doesn't seem to stick to itself.

797
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 4: Is that evidence that maybe it doesn't interact with itself

798
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 4: other than with gravity.

799
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: It's evidence that it doesn't interact with itself very very strongly.

800
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: But again, the loophole is that some component of it

801
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: might be able to now the way to probe that

802
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: a little bit more deeply is to do experiments is

803
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: to take like two big clouds of dark matter and

804
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: throw them against each other and see if they pass

805
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: right through each other, or if maybe they stick together

806
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: and make them like dark explosions. That kind of experiment

807
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: is pretty tough to do, but we were lucky and

808
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: the universe did it for us. It collided two huge

809
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: clusters of galaxies, each of which have their own dark

810
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: matter associated with them, smashed them together millions of years ago,

811
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: and we got to see what happened and what did happen,

812
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: and so this is called the Bullet cluster. And you

813
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: can go out and look at these pictures online if

814
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: you're interested. It's really beautiful. What happened is that the

815
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: stars in these galaxy clusters mostly pass through themselves because

816
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: stars are pretty sparse, so it's like two clouds of

817
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: sand passing through each other. The gas and the dust

818
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: that were in these galaxies smashed together and emitted a

819
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: lot of light and radiation. But the dark matter looks

820
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: like it basically passed right through itself. You might ask, well, like,

821
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: how could we know where the dark matter is? You

822
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: can see the dark matter because it distorts the stuff

823
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: behind it. The dark matter is matter, it feels gravity,

824
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: so it bends space a little bit, which creates like

825
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: gravitational distortions in the light that passes through it. So

826
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: from this bullet cluster, it looks like these two clouds

827
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: mostly passed right through.

828
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 4: Each other, so it doesn't have any strong interactions with itself,

829
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 4: but it could still have some interactions with itself, which

830
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 4: would maybe give rise to something like a dark photon.

831
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 1: That's right, and so people often cite the bullet cluster

832
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: is evidence that dark matter can't feel anything with itself,

833
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: and that's not exactly true, because, as you say, there's

834
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: still room in there for some kind of interaction. Because

835
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: remember that the stars, which do definitely feel each other,

836
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: also passed right through themselves, right. The stars hardly collided,

837
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: and that's just because it's pretty sparse, and so it

838
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: could be that dark matter forms the structures, but they

839
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: didn't collide with each other because just like the stars,

840
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: they're pretty sparse and space is pretty big. And it

841
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: could also be that some components of the dark matter

842
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: did collide with itself and did get stuck sort of

843
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: in the middle there. But we don't really have the

844
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 1: resolution to tell. We can't very precisely measure how much

845
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: dark matter passed through and how much stuck. We can

846
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: just tell that a lot of it passed through, but

847
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: some component could have gotten stuck and could be doing

848
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: like crazy stuff there in the middle.

849
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 4: I see, like maybe the rubber duckies didn't all crash

850
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 4: into each other, but some just kept going.

851
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: I think the key point to understand is that there's

852
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: so much dark matter out there that even if a

853
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: tiny fraction of it is doing interesting things, we couldn't tell,

854
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: and that tiny fraction would still be more stuff than

855
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 1: all of the stars and gas and dust in the

856
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: universe that we know.

857
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 4: All right, well, let's get into ways that we might

858
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 4: be able to detect this dark radiation and maybe even

859
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 4: see these dark or not see these dark photons. I'm

860
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 4: a little confused about how she might see a not photon.

861
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,959
Speaker 4: But first, let's take another quick break.

862
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

863
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

864
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

865
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are us dairy

866
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

867
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

868
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

869
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

870
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Speaker 4: All right, we're talking about dark gradation and dark photons,

925
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 4: which it might be what dark matter sees and feels

926
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 4: with itself when dark matter looks in the mirror, that's

927
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 4: what they would see, dark photons.

928
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I hope they haven'ten eating too much dark chocolate.

929
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 4: But to us, it's pretty elusive because we can see

930
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: or feel the dark matter or maybe even these forces. So, Daniel,

931
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 4: what are some of the other ways that we might

932
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 4: hope to tech whether or not dark matter has these

933
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 4: dark interactions.

934
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: There are a couple other indirect waves, basically again using gravity.

935
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: One of them is looking at neutron stars. Neutron stars

936
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: are these crazy dense objects that are the remnants of

937
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: stars that have blown up and left this very very

938
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: compact core. And sometimes neutron stars come in pairs and

939
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: then those pairs spin around each other in this sort

940
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: of like death spiral before they collide. And when they

941
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: do that, they create gravitational waves that we can see

942
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: here from Earth. This is like the shaking of space itself.

943
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: And if you're interested in learning more about that, we

944
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: have a couple of episodes about gravitational waves. It's really

945
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: cool because the gravitational waves reveal in detail how these

946
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: stars are spiraling towards the center, how they're losing energy,

947
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: and we can calculate with great precision how fast they

948
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: should be going and how much energy they're losing. And

949
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: so this is a really nice test of sort of

950
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: like what's going on with this kind of matter, because

951
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: if these neutron stars were capable, for example, of feeling

952
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: this dark radiation at some level, if the particles in

953
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 1: there could feel this force at all, then they would

954
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: radiate a little bit of those dark photons and it

955
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,959
Speaker 1: would change the way this inspiral happens, and we would

956
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: be able to see that by looking at the gravitational waves.

957
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 4: Wait, so these neutron stars would be made out of

958
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 4: regular matter, the kind we're made out of. But you're

959
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 4: saying that even though it's regular matter, it might emit

960
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 4: this dark radiation. How is that possible?

961
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: It might be that our matter can feel these sort

962
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 1: of like new forces, just at a very very low level.

963
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: We don't know, And so this is like, you know,

964
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: one way to look for it, under the assumption that

965
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 1: our kind of matter could feel these dark forces, which

966
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: is not something we know. It's just sort of like

967
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: a guess. We do this in physics a lot. We're like,

968
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: we don't know if it's possible to see it this way,

969
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 1: but let's check, because if it does feel this force,

970
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: if neutron stars can make these dark photons, we would

971
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: be able to see that.

972
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 4: I see. Neutron stars are so such an extreme event

973
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 4: when they crash into each other that that's one possible,

974
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: you know, crazy scenario where it might make dark radiation exactly.

975
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: And it's a place where we can make very very

976
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: precise calculations about the gravitational waves and compare them to

977
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: very very detailed data. So it's an opportunity to look

978
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: for like very small deviations, you know, things that the

979
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: neutron stars are doing that we can't otherwise explain that

980
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: might be explainable through dark photons.

981
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 4: I see, all right, what are some other ways we

982
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 4: could maybe feel this dark force?

983
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: All the most generic ways you just use gravity, the

984
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: kind of test that we did before, but there are

985
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: some other approaches to look for these dark photons, hoping

986
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: that there's some connection between our kind of matter and

987
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: the dark matter, Like hoping that somehow maybe these dark

988
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: photons can turn into normal photons very very rarely, and

989
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: then we could detect that what how.

990
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 4: Can a dark photon turn into regular photon?

991
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: It turns out that if you have another kind of

992
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: force that's very similar to the photon, has sort of

993
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: like a similar mathematical structure that these forces like to

994
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: talk to each other. That there's like it's very easy

995
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: to build a physics model in which another kind of

996
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: photon can turn into our photo whoa.

997
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 4: Like spontaneously or only in like high energy collisions or

998
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 4: you know, moments where you have kind of this state

999
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 4: of pure energy.

1000
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: It would be spontaneous, and in order for that to happen,

1001
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: there would have to be some kind of particle in

1002
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: the universe that has both kinds of charges. So imagine

1003
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: some new kind of very very rare dark matter that

1004
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: does have electric charges and also has some new kind

1005
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: of dark electric charge. That particle could effectively be like

1006
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: a portal that connects our photons to these other photons.

1007
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: And it might be that these particles never really exist

1008
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 1: in the universe, the way like top quarks almost never

1009
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: exist in the universe on their own, but they're sort

1010
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: of like on the list of possibilities. As long as

1011
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: it's on the list of possibilities, then dark photons can

1012
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: use that as a portal to become normal photons and

1013
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: vice versa. This allows them to spontaneously turn from one

1014
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: into the other.

1015
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 4: Whoa, So that would make dark matter not dark, right,

1016
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 4: It would mean that you can't sort of see them.

1017
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: It would, but these particles again wouldn't actually have to

1018
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: exist in the universe. So imagine now the dark sector

1019
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: is some kind of particle that's actually out there, that

1020
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: most of the dark matter is made out of this particle,

1021
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: And then there's the possibility for this other particle that

1022
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: has electric charges and dark charges, even though it's never

1023
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: really out there in the universe, as long as the

1024
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: possibility for it to exist is part of sort of

1025
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: nature's menu. That possibility allows dark photons to turn into photons.

1026
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 1: It's called kinetic mixing.

1027
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 4: Because we see it happening with regular matter, right, like

1028
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 4: our photons turn into other kinds of stuff all the time.

1029
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, like photons turn into pairs of particles electrons

1030
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: and positrons, and then those can turn into z bosons

1031
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: right because zs also interact with electrons and positrons. So

1032
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: even if there weren't a single electron or positron in

1033
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 1: the universe, a photon could still turn into a z

1034
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: boson and in the same way. As long as there's

1035
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: the possibility for some virtual particle that connects these two

1036
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: forces to exist, then photon could turn into dark photons

1037
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: and vice versa.

1038
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 4: Wow, and that's kind of our only hope of seeing

1039
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 4: this dark force directly.

1040
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: That's the best way to see these dark forces directly, exactly.

1041
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: And so people have built really cool experiments to try

1042
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: to like make this happen more often, to try to

1043
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: like create the scenarios that would help induce dark photons

1044
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 1: to spontaneously turn into photons. They have these resonant cavities

1045
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: at Fermilab, for example, that should enhance the rate of

1046
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: this happening. If you like build something with the right

1047
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: shape and size, it creates a situation where this kind

1048
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: of spontaneous transformation is more likely to happen. And so

1049
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: they look for this kind of signature.

1050
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 4: Well, wait, that's being built right now, Like there are

1051
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 4: people building basically dark force boxes.

1052
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: These things exist already and they are being run and

1053
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: they're just building them bigger and bigger, sort of like

1054
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: the way people are looking for dark matter. They look

1055
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: in these containers underground and they started with small ones,

1056
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: and now they're making bigger and bigger and bigger ones.

1057
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: Nobody's seen a dark photon yet, but they're hoping as

1058
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: they make these cavities more precise and large, or to

1059
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: induce a dark photon to turn into a normal photon.

1060
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 4: Whoa cool and how else can you look for these?

1061
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: Another way to look for these is to look for

1062
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: particles appearing where they shouldn't be. So one of my

1063
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: favorite kind of experiments, it's called a beam dump experiment,

1064
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: where you take a particle beam you were using for

1065
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: something else and you dump it, meaning you just like

1066
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 1: shoot it into a huge block of concrete or into

1067
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: a mountain side, just because you know it's got to

1068
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: go somewhere. You don't want to like spray it over

1069
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: the neighborhood because it's dangerous.

1070
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 4: Right, just shoot it through the earth at people on

1071
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 4: the other side of the earth. Is that what you're saying?

1072
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so shoot it into a mountain.

1073
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 4: Is on the other side of Geneva, Daniel, It's not California,

1074
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 4: is it.

1075
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to look that up. But if you

1076
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: shoot this particle beam into a mountain, for example, and

1077
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: then you put a particle detector on the other side

1078
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: of the mountain. None of the particles should make it

1079
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: through the mountain, but you might see particles appearing in

1080
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: your detector on the other side of the mountain, because

1081
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: dark photons might make it through the mountain because they

1082
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: basically see the mountain as invisible as transparent. The idea

1083
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: is if your beam sometimes occasionally produces dark photons, those

1084
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: dark photons would make it through the mountain. And so

1085
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: essentially it's like looking for light shining through walls.

1086
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 4: All right. See some man of the ideas that you

1087
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 4: send this beam out into the mountain, some of it

1088
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 4: turns into dark photons, and then somehow it turns back

1089
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 4: into regular photons before it hits your detector.

1090
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. And so you're hoping that sometimes

1091
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: those dark photons turn back into normal photons. So you're

1092
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: assuming a lot of things here. You're assuming that maybe

1093
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: sometimes dark photons are created in your beam and that

1094
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 1: sometimes they turn back into normal photons.

1095
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 4: Right, But if they turn back into regular photons, how

1096
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 4: would you know they turn into dark photons in the middle.

1097
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you wouldn't know for sure. You would just know

1098
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: that something passed through the mountain that typically shouldn't be

1099
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: able to. So you calculate, like how often should particles

1100
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: be able to pass through the mountain and turn into photons?

1101
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: And if that happens more often than you expect, then

1102
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: you know this something else and new there maybe a

1103
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 1: dark photon, maybe something else. But you know, that's often

1104
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: the case with particle physics. We find something new, we're

1105
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: not exactly sure what it is, and then we study

1106
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 1: it in detail, we try to characterize exactly what it is,

1107
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: just like with the Higgs boson. First thing we saw

1108
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: is some new particle decay into two photons, and we

1109
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: weren't sure is this the Higgs boson or is it

1110
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: something else we didn't expect, And over decades of study

1111
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: we sort of pin down what it must be because

1112
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: of all of its behaviors.

1113
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 4: I see, it's like, the only way it could have

1114
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 4: made it through the mountain to and out into California

1115
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 4: to hit us it was if it turned into something

1116
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 4: invisible like dark photons somewhere in the middle. Otherwise it

1117
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 4: wouldn't have made.

1118
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: It through exactly. I don't have to phase through the

1119
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: mountain by turning into something that doesn't interact with mountains, all.

1120
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 4: Right, cool, Well, what are some other ways we might

1121
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 4: be able to see these dark forces?

1122
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: A lot of the other experiments are very similar. There's

1123
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: one ETCERN called Phaser Forward Search Experiment. It's a pretty

1124
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: tortured acronym, but a really cool idea for I.

1125
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 4: Don't even know what is there an a actually in

1126
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 4: the name.

1127
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: There's an A in forward and are an experiment.

1128
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 4: Oh man.

1129
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 1: It's a really cool idea because they're taking an already

1130
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: existing experiment Atlas where we collide protons together and they're

1131
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: wondering like maybe dark photons are created and shoot down

1132
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 1: the beam. So they built a detector like really far

1133
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: down along the beam past where the collisions happen, to

1134
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: see if maybe dark photons are created in those collisions

1135
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: and then fly along the beam and then turn into

1136
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: something that they can see sort of downstream. So they

1137
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: added this little bit to the detector that can do

1138
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: something totally novel and new. It's actually led by a

1139
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: team here at U see or vine.

1140
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 4: Hmm, I see, But we don't actually know if dark

1141
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 4: matter can switch back and forth that easily, right.

1142
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: We don't know. And again it could be that dark

1143
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: matter is only some inert particle that feels gravity and

1144
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: nothing else, and there are no dark forces and no

1145
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: way to interact. It could also be that dark matter

1146
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: does feel some new dark force, but can only interact

1147
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: with itself, and none of those dark forces can ever

1148
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: turn into normal matter or no photons here. We're just guessing.

1149
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: We're trying to like study the various possibilities and the

1150
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: various ways that those possibilities might manifest.

1151
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 4: Wow, well, and so what does it all mean? Do

1152
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 4: you think we will find it has interactions with itself

1153
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,919
Speaker 4: or do you think it just represents this whole part

1154
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 4: of the universe that we will never be able to

1155
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 4: see or touch or even confirm that it's there, you know,

1156
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 4: like we could be swimming in dark rubber duckies and

1157
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 4: never ever ever knowing.

1158
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, part of it comes down to what you think

1159
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: is more natural. Does it make sense to you to

1160
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: have a huge component of the universe be sort of

1161
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: simple and inert and not really doing anything interesting, or

1162
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: does it seem more natural for it to be complex

1163
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: and interactive the way that our matter is. Now, what

1164
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: I know is that the universe doesn't follow what we

1165
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: think is natural. Our conceptions of how the universe should

1166
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: work don't seem to be very well aligned with how

1167
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: it usually does work, and so I suspect there are

1168
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: some surprises out there. The other side of that question

1169
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: is what you asked, is might we ever be able

1170
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: to tell? And it could be that dark matter doesn't

1171
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: feel any of our forces, and none of these forces

1172
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: can talk to our forces, and we can never find

1173
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 1: these dark rubber duckies. But I have faith in physicists

1174
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: and engineers to come up with clever ways to probe

1175
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: these things, ways that we can't even today. Imagine kinds

1176
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 1: of experiments that people might think of in ten years

1177
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: or twenty years, experiments thought of by you know, clever

1178
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: listeners to this podcast who aren't constrained by the kind

1179
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: of thinking that academic physicists have been trained to do.

1180
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 4: I think I know how you can do it, Daniel,

1181
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 4: Dark Chocolate Collisions. You just got to want it enough.

1182
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 4: You know, you have to really want it, because, as

1183
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 4: you woulda says, you know, wanting leads to pain, and

1184
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 4: pain needs to suffering, and suffering leads to the dark side.

1185
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 4: And so that's that's how you can get there faster.

1186
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: Maybe, Yeah, there is no try. I should just do it.

1187
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 4: That's right, Just do it? I mean, do it? You should?

1188
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: Yes, all right, I don't know why I didn't think

1189
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: of that before. I'm just going to go do it

1190
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: right after we're done with this podcast.

1191
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 4: Or not do it. I guess we're doing in the dark. Gosh,

1192
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 4: I'm so confused.

1193
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 1: But to me, it really touches on these deep mysteries

1194
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 1: of physics that we know the universe out there is

1195
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: telling stories that we haven't heard yet. We're desperate to

1196
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: hear those stories. We have hints that we know the

1197
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: shape of those stories, but we don't know any of

1198
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 1: the details yet, and I just hope that one day

1199
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: we'll be able to fill those in.

1200
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's almost like there's a whole universe out there

1201
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 4: sitting right in front of us and we have yet

1202
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 4: to discover, and that anyone listening to this could become

1203
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 4: part of that search.

1204
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: That's right. So there's plenty more of the universe to

1205
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: find out, and we desperately need new ideas.

1206
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 4: And whether the universe counts as dark chocolate or not,

1207
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 4: that's for other people to debate.

1208
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: That's right. And if you love white chocolate, take my apologies.

1209
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: I love all of it.

1210
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 4: That's right. You love listeners more than you love your.

1211
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: Chocolates, exactly, and if you eat white chocolate while listening

1212
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: to this podcast, I forgive.

1213
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 4: You because you can't see or feel you, so it

1214
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 4: doesn't matter to exactly.

1215
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: Please accept my dark apologies.

1216
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 4: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1217
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 4: joining us, See you next time.

1218
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain

1219
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1220
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Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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