WEBVTT - Le Golf National Olympics Preview—Plus, Growing Grass in China

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 2>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I find my ball.

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<v Speaker 2>In a fried egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg

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<v Speaker 2>Friday Egg, Frida egg, Brian Egg, Frida Egg, Bride egg Lie,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about ready to run off of the hump course.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Friday Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and

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<v Speaker 1>today we have a kind of two part episode for you. First,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to talk to Joseph Lamania about the Golf Nacional,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the venue for the Olympics golf competition this year.

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<v Speaker 1>Joseph and I thought we would discuss how this course

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<v Speaker 1>kind of represents the ultimate case study in course fit

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<v Speaker 1>and why course fit is important. Then in the second

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<v Speaker 1>half of the episode, I'm going to speak with John

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<v Speaker 1>wall who is the superintendent at shan Chin Bay in China,

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating Core and Crenshaw golf course. And John has an

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<v Speaker 1>amazing perspective on golf from the UK where he's originally from,

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<v Speaker 1>to Asia where he currently resides. So I thought that

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<v Speaker 1>would be an interesting discussion and I have all sorts

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<v Speaker 1>of questions I want to ask him about golf in Asia.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we get to all of that, a quick word

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here with Joseph Lamanya. Joseph, how's it going.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going great, Garrett. I'm excited to talk about the golf.

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<v Speaker 2>How are you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're gonna I'm doing well. We're gonna get into

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<v Speaker 1>the Golf Nacional my favorite course. I think you're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>try to convince me to have more respect for it

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<v Speaker 1>by the end of this conversation. No, you're not gonna

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<v Speaker 1>do that. It feels like you're going to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see. Well. In any case, the intention here is

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about the Golf Nacy now and why it

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<v Speaker 1>represents a kind of important test case I suppose for

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<v Speaker 1>course fit, especially as regards the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup,

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<v Speaker 1>which is one of the great events for understanding the

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<v Speaker 1>dynamics of course fit. That is, how a golf course

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<v Speaker 1>fits a certain type of player's game or doesn't. So

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<v Speaker 1>you were at the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup. What are

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<v Speaker 1>some of your memories from your experience there?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I guess I should mention obviously the reason

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing this is with the Olympics. They're starting this week,

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<v Speaker 2>so we have two weeks of the Golf National Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>we'll get a little bit into if it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>play similarly, how it's going to play differently. But my

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<v Speaker 2>lasting memories of the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup were that

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<v Speaker 2>at that point, I mean, I was very into the

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<v Speaker 2>data and predicting golf course predicting player performance and how

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<v Speaker 2>that interacts with different golf courses back in twenty eighteen,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I'd already been doing that for years leading up

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<v Speaker 2>to twenty eighteen, and I believed that the golf course

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<v Speaker 2>would play a significant role, but that Team USA would

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<v Speaker 2>likely still win that Ryder Cup and a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>egg on my face because it ended up being a

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<v Speaker 2>bloodbath in the other direction. And I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>overstate necessarily how much of a role that both the

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<v Speaker 2>golf course design set up and also preparation played, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was I think it had played a massive, massive role.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you just said, well, Team USA just didn't

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<v Speaker 2>play well, I think you'd be overlooking the role that

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<v Speaker 2>a golf course that was set up very specifically to

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<v Speaker 2>prey on the Americans and to play into the hands

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<v Speaker 2>of Europeans, especially in the way that they prepared for

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<v Speaker 2>that golf course. Like that was a huge story from

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen, and I think it was a really important

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<v Speaker 2>moment in golf history for understanding some of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did you think going in that the Americans were

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<v Speaker 1>gonna win? Was it just because they were better?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean they had a significant talent advantage on paper,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think there are a lot of reasons why

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes that doesn't end up materializing, right, Like we there

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<v Speaker 2>was a similar story at Marco Simone in the most

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<v Speaker 2>recent Ryder Cup in Europe where the Americans were favored

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<v Speaker 2>again and lost. But I felt like going into that

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<v Speaker 2>particular Ryder Cup, especially looking at the rosters, now, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you didn't think about like you had justin Thomas Brooks Koepka,

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<v Speaker 2>Dustin Johnson was playing great, like Jordan Speith. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of players. Speith wasn't at the

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<v Speaker 2>height of his powers, but there were a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>really good golfers on the American side, and Europe just

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<v Speaker 2>felt like it wasn't nearly as deep. So yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean I didn't think it was going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>bloodbath that the Americans were going to clean up. But

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<v Speaker 2>I thought the Americans would win and it was the

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<v Speaker 2>furthest thing from that.

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<v Speaker 1>What were the aspects of course fit the e you

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<v Speaker 1>thought were especially relevant as you saw the event play

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<v Speaker 1>out in twenty eighteen. What should we focus on.

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<v Speaker 2>The biggest I know we've talked about this on this

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<v Speaker 2>podcast before. People get way focused on narrow fairways, thick

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<v Speaker 2>rough and stop there like that. Those are the defining

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<v Speaker 2>characteristics of whether or not something is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>about accuracy, and that is just way too reductive to

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<v Speaker 2>understand what's actually happening with how accuracy is tested. Not

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<v Speaker 2>only were the fairways narrow, but they narrowed at the

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<v Speaker 2>length that players would be hitting driver, which basically takes

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<v Speaker 2>driver out of a lot of golfer's hands. And so

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<v Speaker 2>if you have a huge distance advantage, as the American

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<v Speaker 2>team did, you're not going to get to realize it

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<v Speaker 2>because if you do hit driver, it's often the wrong play.

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<v Speaker 2>Tightly coupled with that, there was a graduated rough approach

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<v Speaker 2>just off the fairways. The rough wasn't that thick way

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<v Speaker 2>off the fairways, it was extremely thick, and I Team

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<v Speaker 2>Europe specifically made sure that the fans were as far

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<v Speaker 2>back as possible so that they weren't trampling rough that

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<v Speaker 2>they knew the American team would end up in more often.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's a huge lasting memory. It was striking

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<v Speaker 2>to see in person like that there was such a

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<v Speaker 2>conscious effort on that, Garrett, and it played out that way.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Team USA was in the fescue and off

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<v Speaker 2>the fairways constantly. I mean, Phil was taking less than

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<v Speaker 2>driver and missing fairways like. It was a complete I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to curse, but disaster for the American team.

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<v Speaker 2>And I also think this is part of why this

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<v Speaker 2>event stands out so much. The golf world has changed

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<v Speaker 2>so much since twenty eighteen, as have all sports, with

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<v Speaker 2>how much more intelligent decision making has become. In the NFL,

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<v Speaker 2>teams didn't go for it all the time on fourth

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<v Speaker 2>down in twenty seventeen. Now they all go for it

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<v Speaker 2>on fourth down in the right situations quote unquote, like

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<v Speaker 2>the optimal situations to go for it on fourth down.

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<v Speaker 2>The same thing has happened in golf. Like golf players

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<v Speaker 2>play way more intelligently with their course management now than

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<v Speaker 2>they did in twenty eighteen, so it was particularly exacerbated

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<v Speaker 2>on a setup like this, And I do believe that

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup played a role in speeding

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<v Speaker 2>up that process and making players much more intelligent, because

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<v Speaker 2>it was so in your face that if you didn't,

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<v Speaker 2>if you run Team Europe, you saw the payoff of

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<v Speaker 2>what it looks like when you're well prepared and when

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<v Speaker 2>you understand some of this stuff. And on the other side,

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<v Speaker 2>the Americans got completely humiliated by not believing in some

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<v Speaker 2>of this course management not paying a lot of attention

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<v Speaker 2>to it. I think it was an inflection point in

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<v Speaker 2>how golf courses are played.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, how often do we see courses like the Golf

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<v Speaker 1>Nacy now And you know, could a player conceivably experience

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<v Speaker 1>the twenty eighteen Rider Cup and just say that was

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<v Speaker 1>such an unusual setup that it doesn't really matter to me?

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<v Speaker 2>I think you could. But it's not black and white

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<v Speaker 2>like the Golf Nationale versus something that's totally different like

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<v Speaker 2>Tory Pines. I mean, every these concepts about when you

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<v Speaker 2>should hit driver and like what your targets should be,

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<v Speaker 2>those concepts are all pertinent. No matter where you're playing.

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<v Speaker 2>They provide some level of advantage to you. It's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be much bigger at the Golf Nationale than somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>like Tory Pines. But it does matter everywhere. So I

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<v Speaker 2>hear you that perhaps they didn't find it as necessary

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<v Speaker 2>to really dive into the Golf Nationale because nothing else

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<v Speaker 2>looks like it, and I'm not going to tailor my

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<v Speaker 2>game specifically to that type of setup that we never see.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think the players who understand why this stuff

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<v Speaker 2>is important have realized those advantages on many other golf courses.

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<v Speaker 1>So getting back to the aspects of the setup or

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<v Speaker 1>the course the design that preferred accuracy at the golf nacy.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you mentioned the graduated rough right, you mentioned taking

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<v Speaker 1>driver out of player's hands. I think you refer to

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<v Speaker 1>either in what you said or in your article that

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<v Speaker 1>you published about this in our newsletter on Wednesday morning,

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<v Speaker 1>variable fairway wis. So was there anything else out there

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<v Speaker 1>that was significant to prioritizing accuracy off the tee? And

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<v Speaker 1>then in addition to that, are these the only things

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<v Speaker 1>that can be done to prioritize accuracy off the tea

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<v Speaker 1>and a golf course setup or design.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a few things there. One thing that I think

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<v Speaker 2>flew under the radar that I didn't have enough of

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<v Speaker 2>appreciation for at the time, and the more I've reflected

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<v Speaker 2>on it, the more it seems important in retrospect, was

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<v Speaker 2>the way there are a lot of grass moguls lining

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<v Speaker 2>the fairways that yeah, elevate and create good vantage points

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<v Speaker 2>for fans Like I can remember sitting on a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of those moguls and watching the action. But they also

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<v Speaker 2>if you ended up on those moguls, you had uneven

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<v Speaker 2>lies in thick fescue like that. Just if those had

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<v Speaker 2>been all flat, it wouldn't have been nearly as penal

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<v Speaker 2>to miss wide.

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<v Speaker 1>But TPC Sagres does this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a good example. It's not as thick as

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<v Speaker 2>the mounds are at La Gulf Nation now, but same thing, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and it creates that stadium viewing. So that was something

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<v Speaker 2>in retrospect that I think was super important. The other

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<v Speaker 2>part that was more relevant in twenty eighteen than it

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<v Speaker 2>would be now. Players just knew which clubs to hit

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<v Speaker 2>off of tees on the European side, and that's part preparation,

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<v Speaker 2>Like they had more tools at their disposal and a

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<v Speaker 2>smarter team behind them to understand like this is not

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<v Speaker 2>a driver, this is a three wood, this is an iron.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think Team USA was much less sure of

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<v Speaker 2>themselves on that kind of stuff, which does exacerbate the

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<v Speaker 2>accuracy advantage. Right, if you stand up in bash driver

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<v Speaker 2>on a hole that you shouldn't be hitting driver, then

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<v Speaker 2>you have to hit that so straight and it may

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<v Speaker 2>not even be on a hole that you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>realize much of an advantage by executing it. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think that was another massive thing. And to then answer

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<v Speaker 2>your final question, is that the only way to test accuracy. No,

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<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of different ways that you can

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<v Speaker 2>test accuracy. But I do think if your goal is

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<v Speaker 2>to have accuracy at a premium, there needs to be

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<v Speaker 2>a different penalty associated with a narrow miss and a

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<v Speaker 2>wide miss. And that's the biggest thing that I think

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<v Speaker 2>setups tend to get wrong, even as recently as like

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<v Speaker 2>Winged Foot and Oak Hill, which we've seen in majors.

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<v Speaker 2>The narrow fairways that are super firm are very hard

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<v Speaker 2>to hold, and so you saw it, Oh kill a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of holes where you just couldn't really hit the

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<v Speaker 2>fairway that had hit fairway percentages forty to forty five percent,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you missed by a yard, it wasn't different

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<v Speaker 2>than missing by thirty yards. And that's fine if we

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<v Speaker 2>want to see setups like that every once in a while.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's how you get Bryson to Shamba Rory to

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<v Speaker 2>an extent, Guys who kill the golf ball off the

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<v Speaker 2>tee with driver and when they swing away they don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to worry as much about hitting it particularly straight.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that those are important to contrast. There's

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<v Speaker 2>not only one way to do it. But thinking that

0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 2>narrow fairways in thick rough test accuracy is not inaccurate.

0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Sorry for using the same word there, but it's not

0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 2>an accurate way to characterize how golf courses play.

0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 1>It's not the narrowness that prioritizes accuracy. It's the combination

0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.600
<v Speaker 1>of elements that you've been talking about, the kind of

0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.840
<v Speaker 1>graduated rough, the variable fairway withs, the various hazards off

0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.200
<v Speaker 1>the corridor, off the fairway, the you know, the mounding

0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:49.160
<v Speaker 1>and the bunkers and the water right, all of that

0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.960
<v Speaker 1>stuff kind of works together at the golf nasty now

0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.440
<v Speaker 1>to make it an unusual test of accuracy and to

0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:00.120
<v Speaker 1>bring players to the four who have that skill. You

0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 1>mentioned a couple of narrow courses that don't really prioritize

0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:07.840
<v Speaker 1>accuracy and why they don't, right, So Oak Hill Tory

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Pines is a good example of one where there's not

0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.280
<v Speaker 1>a big difference between a narrow and a wide myths,

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 1>So you might as well might as well just kind

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.960
<v Speaker 1>of wail away a driver off the tee wing foot.

0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.400
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps that would be a good example as well. Those

0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.320
<v Speaker 1>are courses maybe that represent a misunderstanding of where the

0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.760
<v Speaker 1>accuracy test comes from. I wonder if there are any

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.840
<v Speaker 1>wide courses that you think are not necessarily a good

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.960
<v Speaker 1>test of accuracy off the tee, but present a good

0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:43.320
<v Speaker 1>test of driving overall, you know, distance and accuracy and

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:44.400
<v Speaker 1>strategy combined.

0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 2>To me, the easiest example, and I think it's the

0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.360
<v Speaker 2>best example, is Augusta National, where every player I've talked

0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.760
<v Speaker 2>to about Augusta, when I say like, I feel like

0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.800
<v Speaker 2>this is much more demanding off the t than it's

0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:01.520
<v Speaker 2>given credit for, almost unanimously agree. Despite it being you

0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.200
<v Speaker 2>have to hit the ball relatively straight out Augusta. It's

0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.320
<v Speaker 2>not the biggest premium on accuracy, but you can't go

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.400
<v Speaker 2>out there and just spray it. We've seen what happens

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 2>when Bryson does that. I mean the first hole at Augusta.

0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.200
<v Speaker 2>It's one of my favorite opening holes in professional golf.

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great example of this concept that

0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.000
<v Speaker 2>a narrow miss gets penalized a little bit, a wide

0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.320
<v Speaker 2>miss gets crushed. Right the first hole, there's a bunker

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>down the right kind of at fairway. It's kind of

0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 2>a driver length if you hit a good drive, you

0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 2>have a reasonable look. Birdie's tough, but you're probably not

0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.000
<v Speaker 2>making you're certainly not making worse than bogey, but probably

0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 2>making par. If you miss a little left, then you

0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.000
<v Speaker 2>have some trees to contend with, but you still have

0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 2>a shot. And if you miss way left or way right,

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.960
<v Speaker 2>you're looking at bogie or double bogie or worse like that.

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Hole is a great example of small miss is penalized

0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>a little bit. Wide miss is penalized a lot. So

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.480
<v Speaker 2>I think in general Augusta is a wide course that

0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>is much more demanding off of the tea that it's

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>given credit for. And the other component that we really

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 2>haven't hit on is firmness, and I think firmness clearly

0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 2>plays a huge role in that because when you're coming

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.400
<v Speaker 2>from the fairway and you have spin, you can stop

0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the ball. When you're coming out of rough it's not

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.560
<v Speaker 2>as big of a thing at Augusta, but trying to

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.480
<v Speaker 2>hit something in with not a lot of spin into

0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 2>firm greens, especially at Augusta with the tight runoffs like

0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.720
<v Speaker 2>it can end up in some hairy spots. So that's

0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.080
<v Speaker 2>another part of the Golf Nationale test to the more

0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.240
<v Speaker 2>firm that is, the harder it is to hold the

0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.400
<v Speaker 2>greens from the rough, and so I think firmness needs

0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.560
<v Speaker 2>to be mentioned as well well.

0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.640
<v Speaker 1>Truean also was a good recent example of there being

0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 1>a big difference between approaching those greens out of the

0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>rough and approaching them out of the fairway. That was

0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.000
<v Speaker 1>something that that course and set up really highlighted and

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:47.680
<v Speaker 1>was unusual.

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:48.000
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.720
<v Speaker 1>You just really saw the ball land and run out

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 1>from the rough in a way that it wasn't as

0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.840
<v Speaker 1>much from the fairway. So that was pretty cool to see.

0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.440
<v Speaker 1>So getting back to the golf it's going to be

0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.280
<v Speaker 1>different this week, right, I mean, it's not a Ryder

0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.359
<v Speaker 1>Cup setup. And first of all, this sort of gets

0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 1>at why the setup was the way it was in

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.280
<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen. There was a motive behind that setup. There

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 1>was a reason to push the fans back and to

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 1>have that graduated rough presentation, and it was that the

0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.160
<v Speaker 1>European Tour was setting up the golf course and trying

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:31.120
<v Speaker 1>to present a course that gave an advantage to their team.

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.640
<v Speaker 1>Usually there isn't that kind of motive behind a golf

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.320
<v Speaker 1>course setup. Usually, the motive to bring fans as close

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.280
<v Speaker 1>to the action as possible is stronger than to present

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:48.080
<v Speaker 1>a test of accurate driving, right, And that's why we

0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.760
<v Speaker 1>don't see fans pushed back very often because it's a

0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:57.200
<v Speaker 1>more powerful reason to bring them closer. That fans get

0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.920
<v Speaker 1>to see the action closer. That's a more powerful powerful

0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 1>reason to do that than to make sure that players

0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.160
<v Speaker 1>are being accurate off the tee. And so I wonder

0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.159
<v Speaker 1>how different this week is going to be because the

0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:16.120
<v Speaker 1>motives are just different. Right, the course setup team doesn't

0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.880
<v Speaker 1>have the same set of reasons to try to make

0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.800
<v Speaker 1>accurate driving important. So what do you expect out of that.

0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's going to be nearly the test

0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.080
<v Speaker 2>the accuracy test that twenty eighteen was. If you go

0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.920
<v Speaker 2>and look at players transcripts, you're seeing players kind of

0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 2>say both, like some of the players who were there,

0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.240
<v Speaker 2>like Tommy Fleetwood played and Rory also played in the

0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.919
<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen Ryder Cup and are playing in the Olympics.

0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:45.679
<v Speaker 2>I think Rory said something to the effect of like

0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.920
<v Speaker 2>playing pretty similarly, maybe not quite as thick of rough

0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.960
<v Speaker 2>for most of what I've seen, And Alex Norin made

0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.480
<v Speaker 2>this point, like the rough is pretty uniform, It's not

0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 2>as much of a graduated rough. It's gonna play a

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.000
<v Speaker 2>little softer than it did at the Ryder Cup. There's

0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 2>been more rain coming into this event, and just in general,

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:08.600
<v Speaker 2>the course isn't bouncing as much. It looks like it

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.840
<v Speaker 2>has a little bit of firmness to it. It's not

0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.600
<v Speaker 2>gonna play as much of an accuracy test as it

0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.680
<v Speaker 2>did in twenty eighteen. I'm kind of disappointed, and I'd

0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.960
<v Speaker 2>be interested in what your opinion is of that, because

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.560
<v Speaker 2>I think you could in good faith make the argument

0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.160
<v Speaker 2>that the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup set up is contrived

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:30.800
<v Speaker 2>and like the graduated rough looks bad and it's not

0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.840
<v Speaker 2>how golf courses should play, and I think you could

0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:35.879
<v Speaker 2>go down that path. And I hear some of that,

0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:40.560
<v Speaker 2>but I think it was such an iconic event that

0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.720
<v Speaker 2>presenting it that way is a really cool way to

0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.200
<v Speaker 2>present this particular golf course. Maybe if we we wouldn't

0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.720
<v Speaker 2>want to see it every week, but I would have

0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:51.800
<v Speaker 2>loved to see a little bit more thickness in a

0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.639
<v Speaker 2>little bit of a graduated rough approach, sort of as

0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.160
<v Speaker 2>a nod to the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup, and kind

0:19:58.160 --> 0:19:59.639
<v Speaker 2>of in my view, like I know, they do the

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.680
<v Speaker 2>French Open there every year. But I think it's kind

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.359
<v Speaker 2>of cool to present this golf course the way that

0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:05.679
<v Speaker 2>it was presented in twenty eighteen.

0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:12.080
<v Speaker 1>I guess I mean probably to most people, the twenty

0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.920
<v Speaker 1>eighteen Ryder Cup set up is not as iconic as

0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.800
<v Speaker 1>it is to you. That's fair because people don't think

0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.240
<v Speaker 1>about the same things that you do with regards to

0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.919
<v Speaker 1>course fit and course set up and these questions. I

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.879
<v Speaker 1>think for golf nerds of a certain persuasion that the

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.320
<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen Ryder Cup is clearly important for all the

0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.600
<v Speaker 1>reasons that you've outlined, and it would be understandable to

0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:36.959
<v Speaker 1>want to see something like that again, to see players

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.080
<v Speaker 1>have to tackle that challenge again. But I don't think

0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:43.400
<v Speaker 1>that in general people view the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup

0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.840
<v Speaker 1>that way right, or place it in that high of

0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:52.000
<v Speaker 1>esteem in the history of course setups or Ryder Cups.

0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm I can see both sides here myself.

0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 1>I like variety. I like different kinds of courses presenting

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:08.000
<v Speaker 1>different kinds of examinations to great players, and so having

0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.919
<v Speaker 1>a twenty eighteen the golf every once in a while

0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.920
<v Speaker 1>is really compelling to me. I like to see how

0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.840
<v Speaker 1>those different variables end up affecting play. That's interesting stuff,

0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:21.879
<v Speaker 1>and it's what we want out of golf tournaments. We

0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:24.840
<v Speaker 1>want every course to be different. I do think that

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:31.359
<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen was interesting because of setup choices and not

0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.639
<v Speaker 1>because of the golf course. I think that setup is

0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.480
<v Speaker 1>what can make this golf course interesting, and without it,

0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 1>to me, it's not really much of a golf course.

0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.000
<v Speaker 1>I said this to Andy a couple of days ago,

0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.720
<v Speaker 1>but it's sort of like a Pete die course, but

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:53.199
<v Speaker 1>without the personality, without the quirk, without that kind of

0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 1>extra shot of brilliance that Pete Die tended to bring

0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.440
<v Speaker 1>to his designs. It's sort of like it's imitating that

0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.359
<v Speaker 1>that stadium course format, but it does it in a

0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.680
<v Speaker 1>somewhat more dull and rote way. And so I think

0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.199
<v Speaker 1>in order to make this course interesting to watch that

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.159
<v Speaker 1>you have to set it up in some kind of

0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.800
<v Speaker 1>freakish manner. Otherwise I'm not sure it has that much

0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:17.280
<v Speaker 1>to offer.

0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:19.159
<v Speaker 3>I don't.

0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mostly agree, and then that's probably part

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.960
<v Speaker 2>of what's motivating me to want to see that kind

0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:29.639
<v Speaker 2>of a setup, because otherwise this golf course may just

0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:34.080
<v Speaker 2>not have the teeth that or the architecture to make

0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.600
<v Speaker 2>it super interesting, like these greens aren't super creative. I

0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know that there are many holes that stand out.

0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the closing stretch kind of gets sighted a lot,

0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:45.000
<v Speaker 2>and there's a lot of water. But like I hear

0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.919
<v Speaker 2>you it referring to it as a less creative Pete

0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.280
<v Speaker 2>die design, I think is fair. But we saw what

0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:55.800
<v Speaker 2>it can do when it is set up in a

0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.280
<v Speaker 2>particular in a particular way, like it wasn't the twenty

0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:00.760
<v Speaker 2>eighteen Ryder Cup. And maybe that's motivad my comments for

0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:02.679
<v Speaker 2>wanting to see it that way, because it does play

0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.080
<v Speaker 2>very interestingly that way, and some guys just get their

0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.040
<v Speaker 2>butts kicked like that. It's not going to do that

0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:10.600
<v Speaker 2>this week, and so I think a lot of people

0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:12.960
<v Speaker 2>will watch it and be underwhelmed, especially if the only

0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.160
<v Speaker 2>other time that they've seen it is at the twenty

0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:18.280
<v Speaker 2>eighteen Ryder Cup. I don't know that the French opens

0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 2>commanding like massive numbers the DP World Tour event that's

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.840
<v Speaker 2>there every year. So I think people will probably watch

0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:28.040
<v Speaker 2>it and think back on twenty eighteen and it'll feel

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:29.480
<v Speaker 2>like a completely different experience.

0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, probably, But there's still going to be elements of it, right, Yeah.

0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.760
<v Speaker 1>And so if you're handicapping this event, if you're looking

0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:41.600
<v Speaker 1>at players who might do well, say just on the

0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.000
<v Speaker 1>US team, my governing assumption would be that somebody like

0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Wyndham Clark is not well suited to this golf course,

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.679
<v Speaker 1>whereas Colin Moricawa and to a lesser extent, Xander Schoffle

0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:55.720
<v Speaker 1>and Scottie Scheffler, who are both sort of more all

0:23:55.760 --> 0:24:00.159
<v Speaker 1>court players, but especially Moricala, seems well suited to this

0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of golf course. Tommy Fleetwood is playing for Great

0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Britain and he obviously did brilliantly at the twenty eighteen

0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Ryder Cup. Do you think we'll see some of the

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:12.159
<v Speaker 1>same players doing well that we saw in twenty eighteen,

0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.719
<v Speaker 1>but just maybe having a little bit less of an advantage.

0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Look to me, Francesco Mullinari. He's not playing in

0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>this Olympics, but he's a great example of somebody that

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:26.320
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eighteen was playing great golf. Not the longest hitter,

0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.240
<v Speaker 2>but hit it dead straight and was a great iron player.

0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the recipe here. So Scotti Scheffler, great example,

0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Colin wri Kyle a great example. I think Corey Conners

0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:40.240
<v Speaker 2>is a great example of a player who should do

0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:43.200
<v Speaker 2>really well here. And then if you wanted like a

0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:46.040
<v Speaker 2>little bit more of a long shot tight name. Abraham

0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Answer has always been one of the most accurate hitters

0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:54.400
<v Speaker 2>on any tour, and I think he's somebody to keep

0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:57.120
<v Speaker 2>an eye on, though again, he would benefit from more

0:24:57.119 --> 0:24:59.720
<v Speaker 2>of the twenty eighteen setup than what we're gonna see

0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:00.159
<v Speaker 2>this week.

0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:04.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, gotcha, Okay, any other last comments about the golf

0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Nascy now, things that people should look out for, particular holes,

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.400
<v Speaker 1>What should people be looking for in Analympic golf competition.

0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.480
<v Speaker 2>I would just say paying a lot of attention to

0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:18.880
<v Speaker 2>what happens when somebody hits a wide miss and when

0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.560
<v Speaker 2>somebody hits a narrow miss, and envisioning twenty eighteen and

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:24.760
<v Speaker 2>just using it as a test case for like how

0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:30.680
<v Speaker 2>this particular design can be a can be hyper focused

0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 2>on testing accuracy. It's not going to be that way

0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:36.600
<v Speaker 2>this week, but it'll still test accuracy. Like the first

0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:39.200
<v Speaker 2>hole is a good example where there's water down the

0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:42.040
<v Speaker 2>left and if you go wait too far right, like

0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:44.679
<v Speaker 2>you're dealing with moguls and thick rough. If you hit

0:25:44.720 --> 0:25:47.120
<v Speaker 2>it a little left, the fairway does bleed into the water,

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:49.880
<v Speaker 2>so it can bounce and roll into the water. It's

0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:51.960
<v Speaker 2>not as firm this year as it wasn't twenty eighteen,

0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:53.439
<v Speaker 2>so you're going to see less of that. But in

0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:55.359
<v Speaker 2>the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup, guys were hitting it in

0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:57.520
<v Speaker 2>the water, so I would pay a lot of attention

0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.840
<v Speaker 2>to that. I guess my only other parting thought is wondering,

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.760
<v Speaker 2>to you, does the twenty eighteen Ryder Cup stand out

0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:07.040
<v Speaker 2>as one of the most iconic of the last twenty

0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.840
<v Speaker 2>years or do you think that that's only applicable to

0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:14.760
<v Speaker 2>a certain person that's very focused on course fit Because

0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:17.199
<v Speaker 2>to me, I would think even for people who aren't,

0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.200
<v Speaker 2>that's one that really stands out given the drama and

0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:21.359
<v Speaker 2>the chaos around that event.

0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:23.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess when I think of the twenty

0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:27.840
<v Speaker 1>eighteen Ryder Cup, I don't think of course factors as much,

0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:30.879
<v Speaker 1>though I know that that was important and a big

0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:36.280
<v Speaker 1>subject of discussion and a determining factor in the result

0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:42.199
<v Speaker 1>of the event. I think more about the way that

0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:45.919
<v Speaker 1>certain US players just collapsed and the way that the

0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:51.040
<v Speaker 1>European team came together you know, the Fleetwood Mullinari pairing

0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:57.200
<v Speaker 1>was so amazing and effective and inspiring sort of, whereas

0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:03.879
<v Speaker 1>Patrick Reid was out there calling New York Times reporters

0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:06.879
<v Speaker 1>after the event and throwing tiger woods under the bus.

0:27:07.560 --> 0:27:10.919
<v Speaker 1>I just thought it was the perfect representation of the

0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:14.680
<v Speaker 1>way that those two different teams interact with each other

0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:19.760
<v Speaker 1>and deal with hardship, deal with difficulties. The European team

0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:23.280
<v Speaker 1>seems to come together and the US team at the

0:27:23.320 --> 0:27:25.879
<v Speaker 1>time at least seemed to have a tendency to split

0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:29.320
<v Speaker 1>apart and point fingers and have conflicts with each other.

0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:33.480
<v Speaker 1>And you know, of course afterwards also Brooks Koepka and

0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Dustin Johnson apparently got in a fight too, And so

0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:39.679
<v Speaker 1>there was all sorts of stuff going on within the

0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:44.960
<v Speaker 1>team dynamics that I think was relevant to the outcome

0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 1>or at least interesting to talk about, and that to

0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:54.600
<v Speaker 1>me proved more memorable than the golf course itself. I

0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:57.879
<v Speaker 1>think in general, at Ryder Cups, I'm not that moved

0:27:57.920 --> 0:28:00.679
<v Speaker 1>by the golf courses, and it might just be because

0:28:01.000 --> 0:28:04.200
<v Speaker 1>they're not really to my taste. I like wide courses

0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:08.600
<v Speaker 1>where there's some semblance of lateral strategy and optionality off

0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:11.680
<v Speaker 1>the tee. And even if pros don't really take advantage

0:28:11.720 --> 0:28:15.400
<v Speaker 1>of that these days, or aren't really required to take

0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:19.159
<v Speaker 1>advantage of those kinds of options off the tee, I

0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:22.040
<v Speaker 1>still like seeing them and I still like thinking about them,

0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:25.520
<v Speaker 1>And of course, like the golf nacy and now, the

0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:32.320
<v Speaker 1>successful play on that course is fairly one dimensional. You know,

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.520
<v Speaker 1>there are places where you could hit a driver versus

0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:39.120
<v Speaker 1>a three iron, and that's some kind of strategy that

0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:42.160
<v Speaker 1>that brings in a choice that a player has to make.

0:28:43.000 --> 0:28:45.160
<v Speaker 1>But to me, it's just a little bit less compelling

0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:48.280
<v Speaker 1>because still the goal is to hit the fairway and

0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:53.200
<v Speaker 1>it's a black and white kind of outcome. You're either

0:28:53.240 --> 0:28:56.040
<v Speaker 1>in the fairway or you're in the rough. Now, what

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:58.960
<v Speaker 1>you're saying about the graduated rough and the difference between

0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:02.320
<v Speaker 1>narrow misses and white misses, that gives me something else

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:04.760
<v Speaker 1>to look at. And that's why I appreciate that analysis.

0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:08.840
<v Speaker 1>You know that that really does become interesting if you

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:12.240
<v Speaker 1>look at the difference and outcomes between barely missing the

0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:15.280
<v Speaker 1>fair way and missing wide and then apply that to

0:29:15.360 --> 0:29:18.640
<v Speaker 1>a place like Tory Pines, then you start to understand

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 1>why Tory Pines does not emphasize accuracy, but what golf

0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:26.160
<v Speaker 1>does that's at least fun, and so I can start

0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 1>to look for that kind of thing more. But in general,

0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:33.800
<v Speaker 1>Ryder Cup venues and so far Olympic golf venues aside

0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:37.880
<v Speaker 1>from Rio the first one haven't really done it for me,

0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:41.840
<v Speaker 1>and so I focus on different things.

0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:45.160
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's fair. I think the only pushback at

0:29:45.160 --> 0:29:50.600
<v Speaker 2>all would be that, given how it's a technology discussion,

0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:54.720
<v Speaker 2>it's a lot of things, but optionality in professional golf

0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:56.840
<v Speaker 2>is sort of a lost art in terms of trying

0:29:56.880 --> 0:30:01.320
<v Speaker 2>to find better angles because angles just generally don't matter

0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:03.360
<v Speaker 2>that much in professional golf. I think there are ways

0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:05.560
<v Speaker 2>that we can make them matter more. I'm not of

0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:09.040
<v Speaker 2>angles don't matter at all, person, but the optionality that

0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:12.240
<v Speaker 2>this golf course presents off of the tee is with

0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.560
<v Speaker 2>club selection, and to me that's more compelling than there

0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:18.920
<v Speaker 2>being no optionality at all. Right of it doesn't matter

0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:20.840
<v Speaker 2>which side of the fairway you're down and you're pulling

0:30:20.880 --> 0:30:24.120
<v Speaker 2>driver every time. So I actually think in a weird way,

0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 2>this golf course presents more optionality than maybe a lot

0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:29.320
<v Speaker 2>of other golf courses do. That we see week in

0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:32.960
<v Speaker 2>and week out so maybe a little bit of pushback there,

0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:34.040
<v Speaker 2>but your point is taken.

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:38.200
<v Speaker 1>Angles don't matter. That's what we're concluding on Man. The

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Frida Egg podcast certainly has evolved over the years, Joseph.

0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 2>You know what I mean. We've talked about this. Angles matter.

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:47.880
<v Speaker 2>They just don't matter very much.

0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:51.680
<v Speaker 1>No, I get it. As far as a pro strategy

0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:55.200
<v Speaker 1>is concerned. I just like looking at interesting golf courses.

0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:58.040
<v Speaker 1>That's a lot of what I'm after when I'm watching

0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:00.520
<v Speaker 1>golf on television. I know that these guys are kind

0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:02.840
<v Speaker 1>of doing their own thing and just bashing it, and

0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:05.680
<v Speaker 1>their equipment allows them to do basically whatever they want

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:08.840
<v Speaker 1>to whatever golf course they want, and so that's that's

0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:11.000
<v Speaker 1>to me kind of a lost cause. But I just

0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:13.680
<v Speaker 1>like seeing an interesting golf course on the screen. And

0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 1>so when when there's uh, you know, when when there's

0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:20.280
<v Speaker 1>some dynamism to the golf course, when there's some width

0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:24.320
<v Speaker 1>and some different possible outcomes, different angles into the green

0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:28.200
<v Speaker 1>that are possible even if they aren't being chased, then

0:31:28.200 --> 0:31:31.840
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate that. Whereas I get a little bit bored

0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:35.600
<v Speaker 1>with golf courses where I know that the only outcome

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 1>is going to be either you're in the fair way

0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:41.480
<v Speaker 1>or you're in the rough. That doles it down a

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:42.240
<v Speaker 1>little bit for me.

0:31:43.160 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 2>And to be clear, that's just angles could matter a

0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>lot more in professional golf. We just don't go to

0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:51.560
<v Speaker 2>venues that make them matter. So I am with you

0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:52.560
<v Speaker 2>on that, all.

0:31:52.600 --> 0:31:55.600
<v Speaker 1>Right, Joseph, thanks for coming on the pod. As always,

0:31:55.800 --> 0:31:59.200
<v Speaker 1>should be a good time watching Olympics golf. You know,

0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:01.760
<v Speaker 1>we we only get it every four years, so let's

0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:02.760
<v Speaker 1>enjoy it.

0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Sounds good looking forward to it.

0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:14.160
<v Speaker 1>Before we get to my interview with John Wall of

0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:18.440
<v Speaker 1>Shaanchin Bay, a word from our sponsor, Toro. Moving people

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0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Toro dot com slash golf and reach out to your

0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:12.960
<v Speaker 1>local Toro distributor for more information. Okay, I am here

0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 1>with John wall the superintendent at and I want you

0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:19.440
<v Speaker 1>to check my pronunciation right off the bat. Here is

0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:20.640
<v Speaker 1>it Shaun chin Bay.

0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:23.520
<v Speaker 3>Huan Chin Bay. Yeah, that's that's close.

0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right. I was trying my best. I was

0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 1>looking up all kinds of resources for how to how

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:33.720
<v Speaker 1>to pronounce this properly because it looks like shankin Bay,

0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:37.920
<v Speaker 1>which is would not be a perpitious name for a

0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.520
<v Speaker 1>golf course. I don't think shank and Bay, but but

0:33:40.640 --> 0:33:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Shaun chen Bays sounds sounds a little better. How are

0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:44.280
<v Speaker 1>you doing today?

0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:46.480
<v Speaker 3>Were very well? Thanks for in the midst of Sumner

0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:50.080
<v Speaker 3>renovations and the Sun's outsode. All is right with the

0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:51.640
<v Speaker 3>world perfect.

0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:54.000
<v Speaker 1>So you know, right before we came on, John, you

0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:57.000
<v Speaker 1>let me know that you've actually played the golf Nassy now,

0:33:57.120 --> 0:34:00.840
<v Speaker 1>which is what Joseph Lamania and I discussed in the

0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.600
<v Speaker 1>in the first part of this episode here, what are

0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:05.600
<v Speaker 1>your quick takes on the golf? What do you think

0:34:05.640 --> 0:34:06.080
<v Speaker 1>of the course?

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:09.600
<v Speaker 3>I think I like it more than most I think

0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:12.840
<v Speaker 3>it serves as a different kind of golf course to

0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 3>what we commonly see. I think, you know, people find

0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.160
<v Speaker 3>it easy to criticize a more penal golf course, especially

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 3>when perhaps a Ryder Cup team has you know, taken

0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:28.759
<v Speaker 3>a battering there, and so it's it's easy to part

0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:31.279
<v Speaker 3>of it with a golf course that gave your team

0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 3>a lot of issue. But I think the especially the

0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:38.080
<v Speaker 3>finishing stretch, provides you know, a lot certainly visual interest.

0:34:38.200 --> 0:34:43.680
<v Speaker 3>It serves as a binary between success and failure. So

0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:47.880
<v Speaker 3>I think it actually makes a very good venue for competition.

0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:52.040
<v Speaker 1>So, as I mentioned, John, and I'm moving on quickly

0:34:52.080 --> 0:34:54.440
<v Speaker 1>from the praise of the golf nacy Now as you

0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:58.440
<v Speaker 1>can tell, I'll just you know, I'm not gonna I'm

0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 1>not going to give my stamp of a proval to that,

0:35:00.800 --> 0:35:04.480
<v Speaker 1>though I do acknowledge that the finishing stretch is very nice.

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 1>You are the superintendent in a very different kind of course. However,

0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:11.040
<v Speaker 1>wide fair ways, this is a corn Crunshaw golf course.

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:13.959
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yes, that's exactly it. Wh're yeah, a little less

0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:17.040
<v Speaker 3>let's say manufactured. You know, that natural style of golf

0:35:17.040 --> 0:35:20.440
<v Speaker 3>that Kor and Cruncher are famous for is exactly what

0:35:20.480 --> 0:35:23.680
<v Speaker 3>you get here in spades perfect.

0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:28.280
<v Speaker 1>So you're there. Now, where did you get your start

0:35:28.360 --> 0:35:30.120
<v Speaker 1>in golf? Where did you get introduced to the game

0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:31.720
<v Speaker 1>in golf?

0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:36.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean I started first playing golf just as a

0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:41.600
<v Speaker 3>schoolboy with friends, nothing too serious, ended up working on

0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:45.040
<v Speaker 3>golf courses in England just for a small stretch, and

0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:49.560
<v Speaker 3>then began an education in turf, which is possible in England,

0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:56.759
<v Speaker 3>which led to opportunity to work abroad. You know, traditionally

0:35:57.040 --> 0:36:01.880
<v Speaker 3>turf education is possible in England and America and the

0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:04.400
<v Speaker 3>rest of the world. Yes, you can do it online nowadays,

0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:07.520
<v Speaker 3>but traditionally you couldn't. And golf is a worldwide game.

0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:12.560
<v Speaker 3>So it made sense to me as kind of a

0:36:12.600 --> 0:36:17.240
<v Speaker 3>young young man full of you know, adventure and Faustian spirit,

0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:20.800
<v Speaker 3>whatever you want to call it, to see what golf

0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:23.480
<v Speaker 3>was like in the rest of the world. And that

0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 3>took me to France, it took me to Hong Kong,

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:31.560
<v Speaker 3>Vietnam and now China. So I'm, you know, not deliberately

0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:36.319
<v Speaker 3>staying out of England, but there's great opportunity. There's so

0:36:36.440 --> 0:36:41.920
<v Speaker 3>much interest and enjoyment in just seeing golf outside of

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:46.560
<v Speaker 3>what I think, you know, the media views. You know,

0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:49.360
<v Speaker 3>Great Britain and Ireland, in America and perhaps Australia is

0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:52.560
<v Speaker 3>the world of golf, but there is other fantastic golf

0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:53.040
<v Speaker 3>out there.

0:36:54.200 --> 0:36:55.400
<v Speaker 1>Where'd you grow up in England?

0:36:55.840 --> 0:36:58.480
<v Speaker 3>About an hour west of London, so a place called Reading.

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:03.759
<v Speaker 1>Okay, did you play much seaside golf when you were

0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:04.239
<v Speaker 1>growing up?

0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:09.520
<v Speaker 3>No, Actually, I'm pretty my portfolio of British courses is

0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:12.319
<v Speaker 3>fairly underdeveloped. It's you come to the other side of

0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:14.359
<v Speaker 3>the world and you look back at where you grew

0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:16.239
<v Speaker 3>up and you realize how much good golf was on

0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:19.120
<v Speaker 3>your doorsteps. So I'm kind of kicking myself and not

0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:23.279
<v Speaker 3>taking the opportunity to play more back when I had

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:23.760
<v Speaker 3>the chance.

0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, when you started learning about turf, did you develop

0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:31.719
<v Speaker 1>some kind of respect for links agronomy or were you

0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:34.440
<v Speaker 1>mainly focused on kind of the inland scenes.

0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:37.799
<v Speaker 3>I mean, when you first start studying turf, you you

0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:41.839
<v Speaker 3>don't know you're asked from your elbow, to be frankly honest, So.

0:37:42.080 --> 0:37:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, none of us know are asked for my elbows

0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:47.080
<v Speaker 1>when we start studying anything. Frankly I mean, so I think.

0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 3>You learn to appreciate links more as you you know,

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:56.440
<v Speaker 3>gain education or you gain experience. I think to a

0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:01.759
<v Speaker 3>relative novice, Links is kind of hard to grasp what

0:38:01.880 --> 0:38:04.520
<v Speaker 3>the excitement is about. I remember going to an open

0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:07.680
<v Speaker 3>in Rawson George's two thousand and three and being a

0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:10.319
<v Speaker 3>little bit underwhelmed. I'd heard all this amazing stuff about

0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:12.839
<v Speaker 3>Link's golf and it was a very you know, dull

0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:17.960
<v Speaker 3>brown golf course. And thankfully I've moved on from that

0:38:18.160 --> 0:38:21.760
<v Speaker 3>and I can now appreciate just you know, the amazing

0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:25.080
<v Speaker 3>land and architecture that takes place on a Links course.

0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Now, there are a number I know of turf students

0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:35.359
<v Speaker 1>who listen to this podcast and trying to adopt their

0:38:35.480 --> 0:38:39.120
<v Speaker 1>perspective for a minute. You know, you getting a turf

0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:43.720
<v Speaker 1>education in the UK and you found your way to Asia.

0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:48.319
<v Speaker 1>This is an opportunity, This is something that people could do.

0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:52.640
<v Speaker 1>And so how how did this happen for you? How

0:38:52.680 --> 0:38:54.719
<v Speaker 1>did you end up applying for jobs or looking at

0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:58.960
<v Speaker 1>jobs in Asia? And how might a young turf student

0:39:00.040 --> 0:39:02.200
<v Speaker 1>explore those kinds of opportunities.

0:39:02.360 --> 0:39:07.040
<v Speaker 3>Sure, the way in which I got to Asia was

0:39:07.280 --> 0:39:12.160
<v Speaker 3>Hong Kong Golf Club were running an internship, six month internships,

0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:15.000
<v Speaker 3>and that was how I got my foot in the door,

0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:19.520
<v Speaker 3>and then a very short time after starting the internship

0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:22.120
<v Speaker 3>and assistant superintendent position opened up at the same club,

0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:25.080
<v Speaker 3>and so I just transitioned from there.

0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:28.959
<v Speaker 1>Very cool. So in addition to Hong Kong, where else

0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:31.120
<v Speaker 1>did you end up going early in your career?

0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 3>I spent a summer in the south of France at

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:38.360
<v Speaker 3>a resort called Terre Blanche, which is a play of

0:39:38.360 --> 0:39:41.880
<v Speaker 3>Thomas design that chateau of course, and then there's a

0:39:42.200 --> 0:39:45.399
<v Speaker 3>second eighteen there as well, So yeah, you know, being

0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:47.880
<v Speaker 3>in your late teens in the south of France for

0:39:47.920 --> 0:39:50.440
<v Speaker 3>a summer is a good spot. Next year I spent

0:39:50.520 --> 0:39:57.759
<v Speaker 3>in Paris at a hawtrey course called San Mamora Bretesh

0:39:57.800 --> 0:39:59.319
<v Speaker 3>and then yeah, made my way out to Hong Kong

0:39:59.360 --> 0:40:02.160
<v Speaker 3>the year after that, So it like, yeah, as I've

0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:05.200
<v Speaker 3>kind of covered already, it a turf degree or just

0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:10.160
<v Speaker 3>being in golf in general gives great opportunity to travel

0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:10.840
<v Speaker 3>see the world.

0:40:11.960 --> 0:40:15.200
<v Speaker 1>How did you eventually find your way to Shanchan Bay?

0:40:15.560 --> 0:40:18.680
<v Speaker 1>What was that? I don't know. Did you just hear

0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:21.600
<v Speaker 1>about the job opportunity and applied and went there or

0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:24.600
<v Speaker 1>was there some kind of intention behind getting to that

0:40:24.719 --> 0:40:25.600
<v Speaker 1>course specifically?

0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:28.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean I was aware of Shansien Bay, you know,

0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:31.320
<v Speaker 3>ever since it opened. It it opened to some fanfare,

0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.160
<v Speaker 3>you know, eleven years ago, now, so I was I

0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:37.640
<v Speaker 3>was always aware of it. I always you know, thought

0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:39.879
<v Speaker 3>I would love to work at such a place. I'd

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:43.640
<v Speaker 3>been in I've been in Vietnam for seven years kind of,

0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:46.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, fairly confident in what I was what I

0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:48.600
<v Speaker 3>was doing. And I ended up in discussion with the

0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:51.200
<v Speaker 3>general manager at shan Chien Bay. They were looking for

0:40:51.239 --> 0:40:56.120
<v Speaker 3>a superintendent they would, you know, towards the end of COVID, which,

0:40:56.440 --> 0:40:58.520
<v Speaker 3>as you may be aware, lasted a little bit longer

0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 3>in China than it did the rest of the world.

0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:03.960
<v Speaker 3>So I saw an opportunity to work at a dream

0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:08.080
<v Speaker 3>course kind of by low kind of and with the

0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:10.359
<v Speaker 3>intention of you know, selling high in a few years time.

0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, when you say dream course, that is the proper

0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:18.439
<v Speaker 1>term for the golf course, you know. So for people

0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:22.839
<v Speaker 1>who aren't aren't familiar with shan Chenbay or haven't seen

0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:25.040
<v Speaker 1>the pictures, this is a ranked course, so you know,

0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:27.400
<v Speaker 1>it's one of those that shows up in the in

0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the top one hundred rankings and so on. And there

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:33.040
<v Speaker 1>are photos of it out there that are pretty widely circulated.

0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.440
<v Speaker 1>But if if somebody has not heard of this course,

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:37.840
<v Speaker 1>how would you describe it?

0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:42.920
<v Speaker 3>It is, well, a corn creunch or course over dramatic

0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:47.680
<v Speaker 3>seaside land on a you know, on a basically a peninsula.

0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:49.799
<v Speaker 3>You've got you've got the sea on about two hundred

0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:53.879
<v Speaker 3>and seventy degrees of the actual property. It's up and down.

0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:56.160
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of a perhaps you could say, in evolved

0:41:57.560 --> 0:42:02.960
<v Speaker 3>version of the Cappelloua property. It's it's very dramatic in

0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:08.840
<v Speaker 3>its elevation change. So yeah, that would be the briefest

0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:12.279
<v Speaker 3>synopsis I could I could give you. It's you know,

0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:17.000
<v Speaker 3>completely unspoiled. There are no towers, busy roads, airports. You know,

0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:19.920
<v Speaker 3>right now adjacent to the course, you are in your

0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:22.600
<v Speaker 3>own little world. It's a yeah, I don't want to

0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:26.360
<v Speaker 3>say sanctuary because that sounds awful, but yeah, once you

0:42:26.440 --> 0:42:28.120
<v Speaker 3>come through the gates, you're in a separate world.

0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:31.160
<v Speaker 1>Have you been to the Capealua resort before?

0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:33.799
<v Speaker 3>No, just just being a kind of a bit of

0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:36.520
<v Speaker 3>a nerd and you know, watching the golf, studying it, and.

0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:42.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, I've I've been to neither Capalua nor

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:46.799
<v Speaker 1>Shanshan Bay. But that comparison really resonates because you know,

0:42:46.960 --> 0:42:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Shanchen Bay has it's kind of set on these seaside ravines.

0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:56.960
<v Speaker 1>It looks like like this spectacular you know, heavy elevation

0:42:57.280 --> 0:43:03.440
<v Speaker 1>change kind of land directly seaside, and you know, to

0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:05.840
<v Speaker 1>see a corn crunch shaw course on that kind of

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.160
<v Speaker 1>landscape is pretty stunning. They built it later in their

0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:13.759
<v Speaker 1>in their careers than Kapalua, so you have a few

0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:18.160
<v Speaker 1>of the more you know, signature corn crench shaw, you know,

0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:22.200
<v Speaker 1>bits of style on shen Chin Bay more so than Kapalua.

0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:25.439
<v Speaker 1>But an incredible looking golf course. I wonder are there

0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:28.920
<v Speaker 1>are there any like agronomic challenges that are that are

0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:32.200
<v Speaker 1>specific to chuan Chen Bay. And I'm not sure if

0:43:32.200 --> 0:43:37.640
<v Speaker 1>those can be generalized out to agonomic challenges in China

0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:40.960
<v Speaker 1>or Asia. But you know, starting with the specific, like

0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:46.200
<v Speaker 1>are there difficulties in growing grass at chan Chen Bay

0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:47.800
<v Speaker 1>that are kind of specific to that location?

0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:51.520
<v Speaker 3>I don't think specific to the location, no, I mean,

0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:54.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, any climate gives you a challenge depending on

0:43:54.560 --> 0:43:57.680
<v Speaker 3>the grass you're growing. Most people know with past palam

0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:01.200
<v Speaker 3>that it is kind of disease pro depending on the

0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:03.920
<v Speaker 3>weather patterns that you're getting. So yeah, sure that that

0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:08.279
<v Speaker 3>could be a basic answer. But beyond that, you know,

0:44:08.320 --> 0:44:10.480
<v Speaker 3>we have a pretty good climate year round. You know,

0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:18.400
<v Speaker 3>we don't get frost, so I am without major major

0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:19.560
<v Speaker 3>agronomic issue.

0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Thankfully, that's pretty good. So I should have asked before

0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:28.120
<v Speaker 1>generally where where in China is shan Chan Bay because

0:44:28.880 --> 0:44:31.320
<v Speaker 1>as people know, a rather a large countryes.

0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:34.120
<v Speaker 3>China is a big place. We are on Hainan Island,

0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:36.839
<v Speaker 3>so Heinan Island is a little island just off the

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:40.040
<v Speaker 3>south coast of China. It's in that little corner the

0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:43.920
<v Speaker 3>Gulf of Tonkin with with Vietnam or Vietnam just to

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:48.360
<v Speaker 3>its west, so we it's kind of colloquially known amongst

0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.120
<v Speaker 3>Westerners as the Hawaii of China. It gets, you know,

0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:54.359
<v Speaker 3>good weather. It's not the stereotypical you know, people have

0:44:54.400 --> 0:44:57.319
<v Speaker 3>negative connotations when they envisage China in their mind's eye

0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:04.160
<v Speaker 3>of gray skies, factories, lots of concrete. But I'm not

0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:08.040
<v Speaker 3>saying that's true or false, but in finance case, it

0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:11.520
<v Speaker 3>certainly isn't. It's a lot of greenery. It's as tropical

0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:13.960
<v Speaker 3>as you can possibly get in China, is.

0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:17.759
<v Speaker 1>It kind of a vacation spot for Chinese people. Is

0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.440
<v Speaker 1>this a place that they go the way that you know,

0:45:20.560 --> 0:45:23.520
<v Speaker 1>say a lot of Americans go to Hawaii to get away.

0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:27.200
<v Speaker 3>Yes. Absolutely, there's a lot of domestic tourism that comes

0:45:27.520 --> 0:45:30.160
<v Speaker 3>onto the island, especially during the winter months when you know,

0:45:30.200 --> 0:45:33.200
<v Speaker 3>the northern the northern cities are much colder, whether it's

0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.000
<v Speaker 3>just to escape the cold or you know, for winter golf.

0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:39.000
<v Speaker 3>A lot of our members, you know, will play all

0:45:39.000 --> 0:45:42.960
<v Speaker 3>their golf down here in the winter months when they're

0:45:43.160 --> 0:45:46.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, there are other other courses are frozen over

0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:46.959
<v Speaker 3>in the north.

0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Gotcha. Okay, who does your crew consist of? Like where

0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:54.560
<v Speaker 1>where do you draw from? And what are the I

0:45:54.600 --> 0:45:57.160
<v Speaker 1>would assume there are various nationalities making up your crew.

0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:01.600
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, we're extremely homogeneous. It's really men and

0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:05.520
<v Speaker 3>women from the local village. And that's wow, pretty much

0:46:05.560 --> 0:46:08.359
<v Speaker 3>it without exception, you know, a few staff from a

0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.839
<v Speaker 3>bit further afield within Hainan and China as a whole.

0:46:12.320 --> 0:46:16.000
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I am on the agronomy team, I am

0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:21.720
<v Speaker 3>the superintendent, the one foreigner, and everyone else is from here.

0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:27.480
<v Speaker 1>So you're the one Westerner. In terms of languages spoken,

0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:31.520
<v Speaker 1>I guess you've probably learned how to speak a few

0:46:31.560 --> 0:46:34.839
<v Speaker 1>languages in your time and in Asia or is there

0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:38.200
<v Speaker 1>kind of a Lingua Franco with with English among these?

0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:41.239
<v Speaker 3>Not so much. I mean I've become quite good at

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:45.120
<v Speaker 3>golf course language, as in I can you know, speak

0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:48.640
<v Speaker 3>golf course, French, golf course, Cantonese golf course, Vietnamese and

0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:51.600
<v Speaker 3>now picking up golf course Mandarin. If you put me

0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:53.600
<v Speaker 3>in a restaurant and ask me to read a menu,

0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:57.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm you know, I'm exposed as an idiot pretty quickly.

0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:01.640
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, you learn through the is you know, to

0:47:01.800 --> 0:47:05.080
<v Speaker 3>be very direct with your communication, which doesn't come across

0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:09.160
<v Speaker 3>as route. So you have to get over that because

0:47:09.200 --> 0:47:12.480
<v Speaker 3>if you're not direct, then there's misunderstanding.

0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Sure, right, So you know people who come to work

0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:20.759
<v Speaker 1>for you, do you see them kind of going on

0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:24.960
<v Speaker 1>to turf careers elsewhere? Is there kind of a developmental

0:47:24.960 --> 0:47:28.440
<v Speaker 1>pipeline coming through shan Chen? Because I think this is

0:47:28.520 --> 0:47:30.640
<v Speaker 1>a this will be a good turf job. I mean

0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:33.080
<v Speaker 1>that what a what a great course, and you know,

0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:36.359
<v Speaker 1>what a what a chance to kind of advance in agronomy.

0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:39.000
<v Speaker 3>I guess here not so much. I think because just

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:43.160
<v Speaker 3>simply because of our location within Hainan Island, with you know,

0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:50.360
<v Speaker 3>fairly remote. And I don't want to sound ridiculous in

0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:56.120
<v Speaker 3>saying this, but it's nothing we do is too advanced

0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:59.280
<v Speaker 3>and it can all be done by local people with training.

0:47:59.800 --> 0:48:03.719
<v Speaker 3>And I mean, frankly, a lot of people see it

0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:05.400
<v Speaker 3>as a job to work on a golf course and

0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:08.759
<v Speaker 3>not a not a career, so they're very happy to

0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:13.000
<v Speaker 3>come to work, drive the tractor, do some spraying whatever

0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:18.080
<v Speaker 3>whatever and return home. So whereas you know, other places

0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:22.880
<v Speaker 3>do serve more as a springboard or you know, a

0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:26.480
<v Speaker 3>stepping stone in people's careers.

0:48:27.440 --> 0:48:30.080
<v Speaker 1>What I mean, what an interesting job you have. Just

0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:33.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm sort of fascinated by the details, as you can tell.

0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:37.759
<v Speaker 1>But you are. You are way out there and very

0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:40.319
<v Speaker 1>far from far from home for sure.

0:48:40.920 --> 0:48:45.640
<v Speaker 3>But sorry, it's not I don't find it. It's not

0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:48.560
<v Speaker 3>like being an expat at a logging farm in the

0:48:48.640 --> 0:48:51.839
<v Speaker 3>Congo one hundred years ago. You know, you can live

0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:57.240
<v Speaker 3>very very comfortably. And yeah, sure maybe if you transition

0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:00.359
<v Speaker 3>from you know, living your life in Toledo or something

0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:02.840
<v Speaker 3>and you came directly to hear you would find the

0:49:02.920 --> 0:49:06.400
<v Speaker 3>transition very difficult. But you know, I started in Asia

0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:09.000
<v Speaker 3>in Hong Kong, which is kind of a very gentle

0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:11.879
<v Speaker 3>way of being introduced to Asia, and you get used

0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:15.640
<v Speaker 3>to any cultural differences, cultural changes, and over time you

0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:18.439
<v Speaker 3>kind of get introduced to the hardest stuff, let's say

0:49:18.719 --> 0:49:23.200
<v Speaker 3>of Vietnam and now China. Just it's a I'm not

0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:26.920
<v Speaker 3>here to carry water for any government, but it's a

0:49:27.000 --> 0:49:29.239
<v Speaker 3>fantastic place to live well.

0:49:29.400 --> 0:49:35.120
<v Speaker 1>And one distinction between Hainan Island and say Hawaii is

0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:38.520
<v Speaker 1>that there are some pretty big cities on the island

0:49:38.600 --> 0:49:41.719
<v Speaker 1>out there right there. There's quite a few people living

0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:45.839
<v Speaker 1>in this location. It's not it doesn't strike me as

0:49:46.239 --> 0:49:50.239
<v Speaker 1>being remote in the sense that, like Fijis wrote, right.

0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:53.520
<v Speaker 3>No, no, not at all. You can you know, you

0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:56.360
<v Speaker 3>go up to Haiko within an hour, and then you

0:49:56.440 --> 0:49:58.680
<v Speaker 3>can fly to Hong Kong, fly to Bangkok. So yeah,

0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:02.000
<v Speaker 3>like I said, I don't see this as a hardship post.

0:50:03.760 --> 0:50:05.840
<v Speaker 3>It's very comfortable.

0:50:06.200 --> 0:50:09.400
<v Speaker 1>All right. So maybe we could chat a bit about

0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:15.000
<v Speaker 1>the golf course industry in Asia. You have some broad

0:50:15.080 --> 0:50:22.080
<v Speaker 1>experience in Hong Kong, Vietnam, in China. Vietnam seems to

0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:26.520
<v Speaker 1>be one of the few places that's really booming and

0:50:26.680 --> 0:50:30.240
<v Speaker 1>has been for a while. In terms of golf course development,

0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:34.000
<v Speaker 1>it's not something that a lot of Western golfers know

0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:37.239
<v Speaker 1>a lot about. I don't think like what the golf

0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:40.440
<v Speaker 1>course construction industry is like in Vietnam. Why do you

0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:43.840
<v Speaker 1>think it is? It is such a healthy and growing

0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:46.600
<v Speaker 1>industry there in Vietnam.

0:50:47.000 --> 0:50:49.440
<v Speaker 3>A few things, so I think as a whole, Vietnam

0:50:49.520 --> 0:50:51.840
<v Speaker 3>has really come onto the map in terms of tourism

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:57.440
<v Speaker 3>in the last let's say ten years. In terms of golf,

0:50:58.120 --> 0:50:59.840
<v Speaker 3>I would say most of the golf in Asia is

0:51:00.040 --> 0:51:04.360
<v Speaker 3>quite exclusive, quite private. If you look at China, Japan, Korea,

0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:10.040
<v Speaker 3>the vast majority of golf is either extremely expensive prohibitively so,

0:51:10.880 --> 0:51:16.000
<v Speaker 3>or it's private. And so Vietnam and Thailand, and let's

0:51:16.000 --> 0:51:20.359
<v Speaker 3>say Malaysia as well, maybe Indonesia to some extent can

0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:24.040
<v Speaker 3>serve as a very good getaway for a lot of

0:51:24.080 --> 0:51:27.960
<v Speaker 3>other Asian countries. You can fly to let's say Danang,

0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:30.920
<v Speaker 3>have it two or three days of golf, and fly

0:51:31.120 --> 0:51:33.880
<v Speaker 3>back to Korea, let's say, and you can do that

0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:36.799
<v Speaker 3>for less money than it would cost you to play

0:51:37.320 --> 0:51:39.759
<v Speaker 3>once at a course outside of Seoul.

0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Gotcha? Okay? So what are some what are some other

0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:51.120
<v Speaker 1>interesting places and golf courses that you've been to in

0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 1>the in the general region, whether Vietnam or elsewhere.

0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:58.319
<v Speaker 3>If we've got to cover Asia as a whole, my yeah,

0:51:58.400 --> 0:52:01.279
<v Speaker 3>my personal favorite. I can tell you the brief story

0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:03.400
<v Speaker 3>of how I found it. I was on a I

0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.200
<v Speaker 3>went to Nepal on a little hiking holiday on my

0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:09.120
<v Speaker 3>own a few years ago, and I'd done my hike

0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:11.759
<v Speaker 3>around the mountains and I was in the town of

0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:15.800
<v Speaker 3>Pakara and quite literally, a postcard in a shop window

0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:19.200
<v Speaker 3>said him Alayan golf Course. And I thought, well, I've

0:52:19.200 --> 0:52:21.480
<v Speaker 3>got a day to spare. I like golf. I might

0:52:21.520 --> 0:52:23.520
<v Speaker 3>as well go and check this out. It would be

0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:26.880
<v Speaker 3>interesting to, you know, play golf over here. Had no expectation,

0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:31.160
<v Speaker 3>and so I turned up and there's this golf course

0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:36.360
<v Speaker 3>inside a ravine. There's this giant waterfall, looked like something

0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:38.200
<v Speaker 3>out out of the you know, Journey to the Center

0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:41.440
<v Speaker 3>of the Earth. There was sheep, there was a newborn

0:52:41.560 --> 0:52:44.400
<v Speaker 3>baby goat near the first tee, which it was just

0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:48.280
<v Speaker 3>this mythical place. The mist was lifting out the ravine

0:52:48.640 --> 0:52:51.360
<v Speaker 3>as the sun came up and heated, you know, heated

0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:54.920
<v Speaker 3>the air. And on top of all that, it's it's

0:52:55.160 --> 0:53:03.000
<v Speaker 3>a sublime golf course that is entirely unique. There was

0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:06.040
<v Speaker 3>a there was a visitor book next to the next

0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:09.040
<v Speaker 3>to the little Starter's hut, and Tom Doak had been

0:53:09.520 --> 0:53:13.160
<v Speaker 3>a guest there, I don't know, six months prior, and

0:53:13.320 --> 0:53:15.880
<v Speaker 3>his jokey little comment was that it was an eleven

0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:21.799
<v Speaker 3>on the Doak scale. So I think his his word

0:53:21.920 --> 0:53:24.360
<v Speaker 3>takes a bit more weight than mine. So take it

0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:26.080
<v Speaker 3>from him that it's an exceptional place.

0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:30.120
<v Speaker 1>What makes the golf course so impressive? I mean, it's

0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:34.400
<v Speaker 1>in this massive canyon right next to rivers.

0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:36.560
<v Speaker 3>This river running through it, which is just kind of

0:53:36.680 --> 0:53:40.560
<v Speaker 3>white rapids. You're playing over it, along it down from

0:53:40.600 --> 0:53:46.520
<v Speaker 3>the cliff edge, over the cliff edges. It is, it is.

0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:49.279
<v Speaker 3>It's a very If a golf course can be a drug,

0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:52.440
<v Speaker 3>it's an extremely strong drug that you know makes you

0:53:52.719 --> 0:53:53.840
<v Speaker 3>makes your eyeballs widen.

0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:57.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Interesting. Do you have any information about how that

0:53:57.840 --> 0:53:59.840
<v Speaker 1>golf course was built? I mean, I've just seen a

0:53:59.880 --> 0:54:02.359
<v Speaker 1>few pictures and I'm kind of stunned that it even

0:54:02.400 --> 0:54:02.920
<v Speaker 1>exists there.

0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:07.200
<v Speaker 3>It is one of I think I know his name,

0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:13.160
<v Speaker 3>Major gurung So in an ex Nepalese army. Uh well,

0:54:13.280 --> 0:54:18.160
<v Speaker 3>Major obviously well owned the land. I probably should have researched.

0:54:18.160 --> 0:54:21.920
<v Speaker 3>They should. So, yeah, he developed the golf course over

0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:26.320
<v Speaker 3>over a number of years. That's as best as I

0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:27.480
<v Speaker 3>can provide.

0:54:28.000 --> 0:54:29.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, hey, that that that sounds right to me.

0:54:29.800 --> 0:54:32.760
<v Speaker 1>It's not. It wasn't Tom Doak out there designing, designing

0:54:32.800 --> 0:54:36.719
<v Speaker 1>the holes. So but yeah, what in what an interesting place?

0:54:38.120 --> 0:54:43.640
<v Speaker 1>So I understand that you've also seen gil Hans's effort

0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:49.239
<v Speaker 1>at the Leado in Thailand, and I was curious about

0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:52.080
<v Speaker 1>your reactions to that. Not not a whole lot of

0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:55.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, Western media have gotten out to see that

0:54:55.760 --> 0:54:57.719
<v Speaker 1>golf course, but of course a lot of us have

0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:01.720
<v Speaker 1>been to the Lido in Wisconsin. It just so happened

0:55:01.760 --> 0:55:05.719
<v Speaker 1>that gil Hans was building a similar concept around the

0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:09.440
<v Speaker 1>same time near Bangkok. You've been out to see this,

0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:11.120
<v Speaker 1>What were your impressions there?

0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:15.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think obviously the Leado that was built in

0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:19.360
<v Speaker 3>Wisconsin kind of stole the thunder, and perhaps it's a

0:55:19.920 --> 0:55:23.320
<v Speaker 3>larger scale than the one in Bangkok. But yeah, I

0:55:23.440 --> 0:55:26.640
<v Speaker 3>think Aledo style golf course on a flat piece of

0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:29.520
<v Speaker 3>land is by and large going to be the best

0:55:29.640 --> 0:55:33.480
<v Speaker 3>possible use of that land. So to play these template

0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:39.000
<v Speaker 3>holes and especially with firm turf. A lot of Asia.

0:55:39.080 --> 0:55:42.440
<v Speaker 3>Anyone who's kind of played in Asia may agree that

0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:46.279
<v Speaker 3>predominantly the conditions can be a bit softer than what

0:55:46.600 --> 0:55:51.120
<v Speaker 3>a purist would like. My experience at Ballysheer was the

0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:54.879
<v Speaker 3>complete opposite of that. I've never played on such firm

0:55:54.960 --> 0:55:59.680
<v Speaker 3>and bouncy turf in Asia, which really adds to the experience,

0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:03.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, of playing such a golf course.

0:56:04.280 --> 0:56:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Now, they built this golf course kind of my understanding

0:56:07.800 --> 0:56:11.279
<v Speaker 1>is in sort of a floodplain slight type area, or

0:56:11.320 --> 0:56:14.680
<v Speaker 1>even like a low lying kind of area. Is am

0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:15.360
<v Speaker 1>I right about that?

0:56:16.120 --> 0:56:19.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I mean the entirety of Bangkok is a pretty

0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:20.560
<v Speaker 3>flat place.

0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:25.560
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so it's impressive that they've gotten it to

0:56:25.600 --> 0:56:26.000
<v Speaker 1>be firm.

0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:30.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I mean that again, I've been there once.

0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:32.800
<v Speaker 3>I've played it once. Maybe I was there on a

0:56:32.840 --> 0:56:36.719
<v Speaker 3>good day. Who knows what it's like after it's you know,

0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:40.320
<v Speaker 3>been through a wet spell. So I can only speak

0:56:40.360 --> 0:56:43.920
<v Speaker 3>to the one time. But if they can have it

0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:47.480
<v Speaker 3>that firm and that fast, I mean, what a fantastic

0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:52.040
<v Speaker 3>place to play golf. And whether whether it's accepted by

0:56:53.440 --> 0:56:56.600
<v Speaker 3>the people that play it, you know, it's a dramatic

0:56:56.680 --> 0:57:01.960
<v Speaker 3>departure I think from what golf predominantly is across Asia,

0:57:02.000 --> 0:57:07.440
<v Speaker 3>which is green, you know, nice white bunkers, you know,

0:57:07.560 --> 0:57:10.600
<v Speaker 3>the stereotype. So it is a departure from that.

0:57:11.280 --> 0:57:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, there is kind of an image of

0:57:14.920 --> 0:57:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Asian golf courses that I have, and it's such a

0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:23.960
<v Speaker 1>broad category that it's probably not right to make generalizations

0:57:24.720 --> 0:57:29.000
<v Speaker 1>about Asian golf courses. Right, this is this is a massive,

0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:33.520
<v Speaker 1>massive array of courses. But you know, in general, what

0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:36.640
<v Speaker 1>we're looking at, and you know, specifically maybe even the

0:57:36.960 --> 0:57:40.240
<v Speaker 1>developments in Vietnam that are going in the new courses

0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:43.120
<v Speaker 1>in Vietnam there does seem to be kind of a

0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:46.440
<v Speaker 1>general style and you know what I would characterize as

0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:49.120
<v Speaker 1>kind of resort golf, right the bright white sand, the

0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:54.920
<v Speaker 1>bright green turf and everything kind of luxurious. Have you

0:57:55.080 --> 0:57:59.479
<v Speaker 1>seen the potential for like a counter trend I guess

0:58:00.200 --> 0:58:03.200
<v Speaker 1>that goes against that or does there exist kind of

0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:06.360
<v Speaker 1>an alternative to that type of golf in many places

0:58:06.400 --> 0:58:07.000
<v Speaker 1>that you've been.

0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:09.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think there are certainly, Let's take Vietnam as

0:58:09.640 --> 0:58:11.880
<v Speaker 3>an example, there are certainly golf courses there that are

0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:15.360
<v Speaker 3>exceptions to that rule. So Dunang Golf Club, which is

0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:18.760
<v Speaker 3>a Norman course where Harley Cruz was the main kind

0:58:18.800 --> 0:58:21.200
<v Speaker 3>of on site architect during the construction. That's a very

0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:25.600
<v Speaker 3>sand belt esque design, which was one of you know

0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:30.760
<v Speaker 3>the earlier golf courses twenty ten ish I think in Vietnam.

0:58:30.960 --> 0:58:36.360
<v Speaker 3>And yeah, that is surprisingly kind of rugged in terms

0:58:36.440 --> 0:58:41.120
<v Speaker 3>of in its departure from you know, the green stripee

0:58:42.160 --> 0:58:45.640
<v Speaker 3>stuff that you might see elsewhere. Joyana just down the road,

0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:50.840
<v Speaker 3>the Robert Trent Jones course is very similar because it's

0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:52.959
<v Speaker 3>on you know, sand, They brought a lot of sand

0:58:53.000 --> 0:58:57.760
<v Speaker 3>in for that project. The scale is massive, so that

0:58:58.080 --> 0:58:59.920
<v Speaker 3>that is different as well. And then the Norman core

0:59:00.280 --> 0:59:07.040
<v Speaker 3>in the in the south, the bluffs Ho Tram Again

0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:11.880
<v Speaker 3>it's dramatic, it's sandy, there's waste areas. It's not your

0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:15.880
<v Speaker 3>kind of pond with a fountain style that that does

0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:18.520
<v Speaker 3>exist in a lot of Asia. But I think it's

0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:23.040
<v Speaker 3>it wouldn't be right to paint with too broad of

0:59:23.080 --> 0:59:25.040
<v Speaker 3>a brush and saying that too many golf courses in

0:59:25.120 --> 0:59:29.160
<v Speaker 3>Asia are of a forgettable style that isn't appealing to

0:59:29.280 --> 0:59:29.920
<v Speaker 3>a purist.

0:59:30.920 --> 0:59:36.440
<v Speaker 1>So getting back to Shaunchon Bay where you're working, you know,

0:59:36.600 --> 0:59:38.880
<v Speaker 1>just in terms of your your day to day job

0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:42.000
<v Speaker 1>and what you're trying to accomplish out there with the turf,

0:59:42.120 --> 0:59:46.200
<v Speaker 1>with the golf course. What excites you right now about

0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:48.280
<v Speaker 1>your work, Like, what are what are you really trying

0:59:48.360 --> 0:59:50.760
<v Speaker 1>to do to take that course to the next level.

0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:54.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean, the most basic crowd pleaser is is always

0:59:54.160 --> 0:59:58.040
<v Speaker 3>green speed, regardless of club. You know, we're not trying

0:59:58.080 --> 1:00:03.160
<v Speaker 3>to be silly, but there's an expectation of a good

1:00:03.240 --> 1:00:07.040
<v Speaker 3>speed so that the you know, the character and the

1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:12.360
<v Speaker 3>life of the greens is properly expressed, and that in

1:00:12.480 --> 1:00:14.400
<v Speaker 3>a you know, past partement can be a little bit

1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:16.640
<v Speaker 3>challenging at times, depending on the weather. But just getting

1:00:16.640 --> 1:00:20.560
<v Speaker 3>on top of that, I'd say that's, you know, predominantly

1:00:20.600 --> 1:00:25.040
<v Speaker 3>why I'm here. Ensuring that the course place is intended.

1:00:25.560 --> 1:00:29.520
<v Speaker 3>The the jungle here which surrounds the entire course, I

1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:31.640
<v Speaker 3>call it jungle, but that's kind of what it is.

1:00:34.320 --> 1:00:41.479
<v Speaker 3>Ensuring sightlines are maintained, kind of curated. Natural is again

1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:46.040
<v Speaker 3>not a not a very poetic phrase, but unless we

1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:49.800
<v Speaker 3>manage the jungle, it will eat the golf course. But

1:00:49.920 --> 1:00:53.240
<v Speaker 3>if we manage it too much, then it doesn't look natural.

1:00:53.320 --> 1:00:58.360
<v Speaker 3>So it's keeping that balance between the between the two extremes.

1:01:01.000 --> 1:01:04.200
<v Speaker 3>And then look the golf course here. It was built.

1:01:05.440 --> 1:01:09.800
<v Speaker 3>Bill core only agreed to be the architect, and he

1:01:09.880 --> 1:01:12.560
<v Speaker 3>spent one hundred and fifty six days on site here,

1:01:12.640 --> 1:01:15.200
<v Speaker 3>by the way, which is I think a pretty extreme

1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:18.200
<v Speaker 3>number of days given how far away he was from home.

1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:21.959
<v Speaker 3>So he worked with landscapes unlimited to construct the course

1:01:22.160 --> 1:01:28.680
<v Speaker 3>forward construction and so this place was really built exceptionally well.

1:01:29.480 --> 1:01:29.800
<v Speaker 2>And so.

1:01:31.640 --> 1:01:38.520
<v Speaker 3>Maintaining that infrastructure that is here is of high or

1:01:38.600 --> 1:01:45.240
<v Speaker 3>critical importance. And yeah, just ensuring good presentation. I'm not

1:01:45.360 --> 1:01:49.080
<v Speaker 3>here to most golf courses in Asia, let's say, are

1:01:49.120 --> 1:01:52.160
<v Speaker 3>a six out of ten, and we're not here to

1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:57.640
<v Speaker 3>be a six out of ten. And yeah, that's a

1:01:57.760 --> 1:01:59.800
<v Speaker 3>very simple way of saying that's why I'm here.

1:02:00.600 --> 1:02:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, little a little bit of pressure. You mentioned, uh

1:02:04.920 --> 1:02:08.880
<v Speaker 1>past palum right, which I have a vague understanding that

1:02:09.120 --> 1:02:13.920
<v Speaker 1>this kind of turf has a has a varied reputation.

1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about like maintaining this kind of turf, like

1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:19.800
<v Speaker 1>what it takes to present it really well?

1:02:20.480 --> 1:02:25.240
<v Speaker 3>Sure with I mean we all we certainly strive to

1:02:25.360 --> 1:02:28.880
<v Speaker 3>have firm and bouncy conditions. But with past palum. I

1:02:28.920 --> 1:02:32.760
<v Speaker 3>think it's more of a binary between it can be

1:02:33.280 --> 1:02:36.840
<v Speaker 3>too wet and it can be too dry, and finding

1:02:36.920 --> 1:02:40.560
<v Speaker 3>that balance is very difficult. You, of course, you don't

1:02:40.560 --> 1:02:42.120
<v Speaker 3>want it to be too wet because then it plays

1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:44.280
<v Speaker 3>too soft. But if you let it get too dry,

1:02:45.200 --> 1:02:48.360
<v Speaker 3>it kind of falls on its face, wilts and dies.

1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:53.520
<v Speaker 3>So getting that balance is takes a lot of attention,

1:02:53.640 --> 1:02:56.040
<v Speaker 3>a lot of you know, moisture readings, daily measurements, being

1:02:56.120 --> 1:03:00.400
<v Speaker 3>on top of irrigation practices, making sure staff understand why

1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:03.520
<v Speaker 3>they're watering, how they're watering in order to get the

1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:09.040
<v Speaker 3>best bang for their buck that way. Yeah, just keeping

1:03:09.160 --> 1:03:12.720
<v Speaker 3>organic matter low in order to make sure that surface

1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:16.280
<v Speaker 3>layer of soil is not too soft.

1:03:16.920 --> 1:03:21.160
<v Speaker 1>Gotcha. Okay, So you know, just kind of wrapping up here.

1:03:22.040 --> 1:03:24.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how much you how much you know

1:03:24.320 --> 1:03:27.120
<v Speaker 1>about about what you want to do next. But do

1:03:27.280 --> 1:03:30.840
<v Speaker 1>you have any any plans or desires or no matter

1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:34.160
<v Speaker 1>how distant, to eventually get back to the UK, or

1:03:34.760 --> 1:03:37.000
<v Speaker 1>do you feel like you've you've put down roots where

1:03:37.000 --> 1:03:39.560
<v Speaker 1>you are and you're going to keep going.

1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:45.040
<v Speaker 3>I have nothing against the UK, but I'm I'm seeing

1:03:45.120 --> 1:03:51.160
<v Speaker 3>more opportunity elsewhere at the moment. Frankly, and this is

1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:56.400
<v Speaker 3>a large topic, maybe a hot topic, but what course

1:03:56.480 --> 1:03:59.920
<v Speaker 3>managers head green keepers in the UK are paid, I

1:04:00.200 --> 1:04:04.640
<v Speaker 3>think is unattractive to a lot of people in America,

1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:09.640
<v Speaker 3>in the rest of the world, it's I think it

1:04:09.720 --> 1:04:13.320
<v Speaker 3>certainly needs to increase in order to attract outside talent.

1:04:15.640 --> 1:04:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, maybe leaning into the controversial topic a bit,

1:04:19.720 --> 1:04:22.920
<v Speaker 1>this is something that I've I've gotten some kind of

1:04:23.080 --> 1:04:27.080
<v Speaker 1>understanding of as I've gotten to know superintendents, but it

1:04:27.160 --> 1:04:31.640
<v Speaker 1>seems like almost there's a different view of superintendents, or

1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:36.480
<v Speaker 1>as it's put in the UK course managers, you know,

1:04:36.800 --> 1:04:38.920
<v Speaker 1>as though it's a it's just a different kind of

1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:42.640
<v Speaker 1>position there, at least in the way that it's perceived.

1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Have you Have you gotten that sense too.

1:04:45.440 --> 1:04:48.280
<v Speaker 3>I think it varies club to club, But I mean,

1:04:48.480 --> 1:04:51.480
<v Speaker 3>just to give some numbers as examples, I don't know

1:04:51.560 --> 1:04:54.080
<v Speaker 3>what the average crew size in the US is, but

1:04:54.280 --> 1:04:56.960
<v Speaker 3>in Asia, you know, I've got forty staff on my

1:04:57.240 --> 1:05:00.600
<v Speaker 3>in my department. Here in Vietnam for third six holes,

1:05:00.600 --> 1:05:03.320
<v Speaker 3>i had over one hundred staff, including hotel and some

1:05:03.440 --> 1:05:07.320
<v Speaker 3>other stuff. So you know, there is that compared to UK,

1:05:07.480 --> 1:05:12.920
<v Speaker 3>where the crew sizes are much smaller. Yeah, us is

1:05:12.960 --> 1:05:15.840
<v Speaker 3>it what fifteen twenty twenty five on a crew, So

1:05:16.560 --> 1:05:18.600
<v Speaker 3>you know, the I think the budgets that are managed

1:05:18.640 --> 1:05:22.680
<v Speaker 3>are a lot larger, and so whether the salary is

1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:26.960
<v Speaker 3>kind of increases with not not directly and proportionally with

1:05:27.080 --> 1:05:30.040
<v Speaker 3>crew size, the or the overall budget. But I think

1:05:30.120 --> 1:05:33.520
<v Speaker 3>that that could be a part. But then you look

1:05:33.520 --> 1:05:35.600
<v Speaker 3>at the whole kind of picture of the economy in

1:05:35.880 --> 1:05:41.120
<v Speaker 3>Britain and wages or salaries in Britain are just like

1:05:41.160 --> 1:05:43.720
<v Speaker 3>the rest of Europe, a lot lower compared to the US.

1:05:44.760 --> 1:05:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, no, it's a it's an interesting thing. But

1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:51.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, you would think that it would be an

1:05:51.360 --> 1:05:55.800
<v Speaker 1>enormously attractive job to manage a links course, but there

1:05:55.840 --> 1:05:59.360
<v Speaker 1>are there are some I guess, sort of drawbacks there.

1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:02.880
<v Speaker 1>So you know, when you when you think about turf

1:06:02.960 --> 1:06:06.480
<v Speaker 1>students coming up, I guess what would be your what

1:06:06.520 --> 1:06:09.440
<v Speaker 1>would be your argument for them to look at opportunities

1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:11.080
<v Speaker 1>an agent, look for an internship.

1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:14.000
<v Speaker 3>But like you did, I think you can help you

1:06:14.360 --> 1:06:17.200
<v Speaker 3>stand out. You know, I think a lot of turf

1:06:17.280 --> 1:06:20.520
<v Speaker 3>students go through the Ohio State program, which by all

1:06:20.560 --> 1:06:23.840
<v Speaker 3>accounts is a fantastic program. You can work at some

1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:26.040
<v Speaker 3>of the top clubs. You get to go to multiple clubs,

1:06:27.040 --> 1:06:30.440
<v Speaker 3>you go to Wealth of Experience, they provide extra education.

1:06:32.400 --> 1:06:35.280
<v Speaker 3>I America is a great place I love to visit,

1:06:35.360 --> 1:06:38.200
<v Speaker 3>but there's a lot of for the rest of the

1:06:38.240 --> 1:06:41.520
<v Speaker 3>world that I think is as good, better, you know,

1:06:41.920 --> 1:06:47.680
<v Speaker 3>more interesting. Perhaps so you can stand out by you know,

1:06:48.000 --> 1:06:49.480
<v Speaker 3>being a little bit more adventurous.

1:06:50.480 --> 1:06:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, well, John, thank you so much for

1:06:52.920 --> 1:06:56.160
<v Speaker 1>coming on the podcast. This is really interesting and best

1:06:56.200 --> 1:06:57.360
<v Speaker 1>of luck there in shan Chin Bay.

1:06:58.000 --> 1:06:59.640
<v Speaker 3>Garet, thanks for having me. Thanks a lot.

1:07:10.600 --> 1:07:14.800
<v Speaker 1>This episode of the Fridagg Golf Podcast was produced by

1:07:14.880 --> 1:07:20.160
<v Speaker 1>PJ Clark. Thank you, PJ. If you're enjoying the content

1:07:20.240 --> 1:07:22.440
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<v Speaker 1>These are features that we do on a weekly basis

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<v Speaker 1>If that sounds good to you, then go to the

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<v Speaker 1>all about. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back

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<v Speaker 1>again soon with another episode.