Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guests on this episode That's Too
Speaker 1: are Scott Berry Kaufman, who's been on the show before.
Speaker 1: He's a cognitive scientist and humanistic psychologist exploring the depths
Speaker 1: of human potential. He's a professor at Columbia University and
Speaker 1: director of the Center for Human Potential. Scott has also
Speaker 1: authored ten books and is host of the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: In two thousand fifteen, he was named one of the
Speaker 1: fifty groundbreaking scientists who are changing the Way We See
Speaker 1: the World by Business Insider. And also on the episode
Speaker 1: is Jordan's Fine Gold, a resident physician in psychiatry at
Speaker 1: the Icon School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New
Speaker 1: York City. She's a well being researcher and positive psychology practitioner.
Speaker 1: Her research and clinical interests involved protecting and promoting healthcare
Speaker 1: worker and patient well being and incorporating positive psychology approaches
Speaker 1: into healthcare delivery. Jordan is also co author of Choose Growth,
Speaker 1: a Workbook for Transcending Trauma, fear and Self Doubt. Hi Scott,
Speaker 1: Hi Jordan, Welcome to the show. Hi Eric, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for having us on. It's a real honor
Speaker 1: to be on your podcast. It's good to see you again.
Speaker 1: I don't know when we had you on. I think
Speaker 1: it was after your book, before this one was released,
Speaker 1: so it's been a couple of years. You and Jordan's
Speaker 1: have just released a new book called Choose Growth, a
Speaker 1: Workbook for Transcending Trauma, fear and Self Doubt. And we're
Speaker 1: going to get into that book in a moment, but
Speaker 1: we have to start the podcast like we always do,
Speaker 1: with a parable. I'm going to ask this to Jordan's
Speaker 1: because Scott, you've already had a chance to answer this once.
Speaker 1: In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their
Speaker 1: grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 1: inside of us that are always at battle. One is
Speaker 1: a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery
Speaker 1: and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 1: grandchild stops and thinks about it for second, looks up
Speaker 1: at their grandparents as well. Which one wins, and the
Speaker 1: grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to
Speaker 1: start off by asking you what that parable means to
Speaker 1: you in your life and in the work that you do. Oh,
Speaker 1: I love this so much, and I only wish now
Speaker 1: that I could remember how Scott answered this, because I
Speaker 1: worry that my answer is going to be similar to
Speaker 1: what he said. So Scott, of course, what comes to
Speaker 1: mind is rawle O'May that we are full of potentialities
Speaker 1: for both good and evil, and it is the daimonic
Speaker 1: that can take over the whole being. And of course
Speaker 1: we are not just one wolf. We have all of
Speaker 1: these potentialities inside of us, and multiple potentialities toward good
Speaker 1: evil and all of that in between. And the idea
Speaker 1: in what we talk about in our book and what
Speaker 1: I helped my patients within the psychiatry setting is that
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily want to starve the evil potentiality, but
Speaker 1: welcome it in and understand from a trauma informed perspective
Speaker 1: how that wolf got to be who it is, and
Speaker 1: rather than suppress it or push it aside, to learn
Speaker 1: to welcome it in and nurture it and maybe with
Speaker 1: a lot of love and tender kindness, that wolf won't
Speaker 1: be so evil after all. And how can we bring
Speaker 1: it into the pack and befriended and really understand how
Speaker 1: how it came to be, just like we can honor
Speaker 1: those dark parts of ourselves. I love that in your book.
Speaker 1: I pulled that line out from Rollo May also saying
Speaker 1: that virtually all humans are bundles of both evil and
Speaker 1: good potentialities, And so that got my attention in the
Speaker 1: latest book, Scott, and I think you want to add
Speaker 1: to that. Well, even roll May, you know, made a
Speaker 1: mistake there by labeling evil, you know, potentialities as evil.
Speaker 1: I guess he's saying their potentialities, but we don't always
Speaker 1: know what potentialities we think are good will actually turn
Speaker 1: out to be evil. Right, There's a lot of things
Speaker 1: that were done in the name of good that turned
Speaker 1: out to be evil. So I think the point there,
Speaker 1: and I guess I'm correcting role may is that we
Speaker 1: have lots of potentialities. We have some that we label
Speaker 1: is bad, we have some that we label is good.
Speaker 1: We do know that there are certain potentialities that the
Speaker 1: more we feed them, the stronger they yet. And I
Speaker 1: think it's really important to have an awareness of the
Speaker 1: extent to which what you're growing stronger and what potentialities
Speaker 1: you're realizing are the ones that you really want to
Speaker 1: be the predominant part of your whole system. Just having
Speaker 1: that awareness, that awareness is so essential. When you see
Speaker 1: yourself going down a certain path, you know, you do
Speaker 1: the thought experiment where is that going to lead? You know,
Speaker 1: and you really think it through. The way you read
Speaker 1: that parable it makes it sound like an emotion like
Speaker 1: fear is a bad thing. It's not that emotion of
Speaker 1: fear is a bad thing. It's just that fear, if
Speaker 1: we let it run, our lives could lead it. There's
Speaker 1: a whole lot of difference among people I love about
Speaker 1: what you do, Scott. Is you really honor the fact
Speaker 1: that that what works for me may not work for
Speaker 1: you and what I want, you know, Jordan may not want,
Speaker 1: and really honoring that sort of wide distinction. And so
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious about what made you want to
Speaker 1: go from the book Transcend to the workbook. There's lots
Speaker 1: of exercises in that book. Given the variation among people,
Speaker 1: how do you think about how to use that book?
Speaker 1: Will all interventions be good for all people? Only some
Speaker 1: of them? How might someone know? Just kind of curious
Speaker 1: your thoughts on putting it into practice. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of questions in one there, my friend, I know
Speaker 1: it's bad interview etiquette. We can talk about the origin
Speaker 1: of why we created exercises, and we can talk about
Speaker 1: user manual for the person on how to use it.
Speaker 1: Let me take it one at a time. Here in Transcend,
Speaker 1: there's an appendix. I think it's appendix too, or it
Speaker 1: might be a pendix. One are forgetting It has some
Speaker 1: of these activities that can help you become a whole person.
Speaker 1: And if you look at that page of the book,
Speaker 1: it says co authored with Dr Jordan Fine Gold says
Speaker 1: that right there and transcend. So this was a way
Speaker 1: to what that breathe more in a full collaboration with
Speaker 1: Jordan who did a terrific job with that appendix in transcend,
Speaker 1: and we thought, well, you know, we're like, we really
Speaker 1: have a book here, especially during the time of the
Speaker 1: last two years, you know, in light of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: We're like, wow, we can actually adapt a lot of
Speaker 1: these exercises for this moment, in particular, helping people realize
Speaker 1: their potentials even amidst the unknown and all the confusion
Speaker 1: that we have gone on in the world right now
Speaker 1: and within our own selves. So for people reading this book,
Speaker 1: we hope that it's a journey for them for self insight.
Speaker 1: Karen Hornet called it self analysis. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you're familiar with that term at all, self ANALYSI us
Speaker 1: it's a way to also get outside your comfort zone
Speaker 1: and do these exercises. If you take these exercises seriously,
Speaker 1: you can't help but grow. It's like there's certain things
Speaker 1: you do in your life that you don't want to
Speaker 1: do them, but you know you're gonna grow. Like every
Speaker 1: time I talk to a beautiful woman, you know, my
Speaker 1: my heart is beating fast and I can't breathe. But
Speaker 1: you know, I know that if I do it, I
Speaker 1: will grow. You know, I will talk to someone, I
Speaker 1: will get outside my covers it every time. That was
Speaker 1: just one example. But every time I go and ride
Speaker 1: a motorcycle. You know, we can get away from the
Speaker 1: first example. But every time I ride a motorcycle, every time,
Speaker 1: I know that if I go and even fly. I
Speaker 1: used to be really scared of flying. I know every
Speaker 1: time I just make that decision, I know that the
Speaker 1: outcome is going to be growth. So it's like, you
Speaker 1: choose growth, you know, you don't choose fear. That's the
Speaker 1: bottom line here. And I think what's so important about
Speaker 1: the workbook and why we included the practices and Transcend
Speaker 1: in the first place, is that there's so much good
Speaker 1: information and knowledge and theory out there, and as is
Speaker 1: a goal of this podcast, it's not enough to just
Speaker 1: know the stuff. We actually have to learn how to
Speaker 1: integrate it into our lives and actually practice it and
Speaker 1: do it time and time again. We can know something
Speaker 1: perfectly well, but perhaps we avoid actually doing it, and
Speaker 1: then we realize the avoidance magnifies the anxiety, and and
Speaker 1: then we become extra self critical because there's all this
Speaker 1: stuff we know we should be doing. We should ourselves
Speaker 1: to death another Karen horn I proclamation that we should
Speaker 1: break free from the tyrannical shoulds in our lives. And
Speaker 1: this presents readers and listeners of the audio book with
Speaker 1: an opportunity not to generate their own ideas necessarily about
Speaker 1: how to apply the concepts. But we make it pretty simple.
Speaker 1: We put the questions out there, We put the prompts
Speaker 1: out there so that people are in alone, that they
Speaker 1: can actually do this in the company of others, in
Speaker 1: the company of a whole public who's engaging in these
Speaker 1: practices together. Yes, yeah, I think we know that writing
Speaker 1: is a very powerful way of understanding ourselves better, of
Speaker 1: changing and growing. And this book has I mean a
Speaker 1: lifetime is worth of prompts really, right, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you were to really take the exercises in this book
Speaker 1: seriously and really sit down and write out all these things,
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Scott, there will be no choice
Speaker 1: but to grow. It is about what are we going
Speaker 1: to apply? What ideas are we going to apply? And
Speaker 1: where I wanted to talk about something that's in the
Speaker 1: transcend model and sort of weaves its way through this book.
Speaker 1: And I know it's a big idea of your Scott,
Speaker 1: but I'm first going to let Jordan take it and
Speaker 1: then kind of let you follow up, which is this
Speaker 1: relationship between security and growth. On one hand, it's easy
Speaker 1: to say, well, in order to grow, I need to
Speaker 1: have a certain amount of security. It seems to me
Speaker 1: that a lot of people where psychological safety isn't there,
Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of growth that has to happen
Speaker 1: to get to that psychological safety. And so I'm kind
Speaker 1: of curious how you think about those two things. So
Speaker 1: I think that the idea that growth necessarily comes after
Speaker 1: security is a misconception. I think that these things can
Speaker 1: happen in tandem and parallel, and that they can reinforce
Speaker 1: one another. And Scott, I want to hear if you
Speaker 1: disagree with anything that I'm saying, so exactly as you said, Eric,
Speaker 1: it can take a lot of how did you put it,
Speaker 1: that it takes growth in order to bolster our security,
Speaker 1: and it can take security in order to bolster our growth.
Speaker 1: And that's why we use the sailboat metaphor that Scott
Speaker 1: put forth in transcend, which is not a pyramid, even
Speaker 1: though Moslow never actually depicted a pyramid, which really seems
Speaker 1: to suggest that it's like climbing a mountain or unlocking
Speaker 1: the next level, and that these things happen in sequence,
Speaker 1: that first we have to be safe, and then we
Speaker 1: bolster our self esteem and then we can experience connection.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work like that. All of these things are
Speaker 1: integrated processes that reinforce one another. So while I think
Speaker 1: it can be very helpful to think about the base
Speaker 1: of our sailboat being able to open up our sail
Speaker 1: as distinct parts of achieving transcendence, we're constantly working on
Speaker 1: all of these. So one example is thinking about self esteem,
Speaker 1: which we put in the security cycle, which is part
Speaker 1: of the base of our sailboat. Self esteem is generated
Speaker 1: and we talk about healthy self esteem, but self esteem
Speaker 1: develops through our development when we are children and implicitly
Speaker 1: get the message that we are worthy and that we
Speaker 1: are able to affect change in our environment. And that
Speaker 1: often happens when we have love in our lives, which
Speaker 1: is a higher order need in which we talk about
Speaker 1: in the growth cycle. And often for many people, self
Speaker 1: esteem isn't something that necessarily happens in isolation. It happens
Speaker 1: from connection in the presence of other people. Self esteem.
Speaker 1: It's easier to derive when we feel validation and love
Speaker 1: from other people, or we feel like we're working towards
Speaker 1: our purpose, which is another higher order need. So I
Speaker 1: think it's important and it actually recapitulates the way we
Speaker 1: can use this book. We don't suggest that anyone actually
Speaker 1: read the book necessarily from start to finish, but that
Speaker 1: they go through the first chapter and recognize where are
Speaker 1: my unmet needs. And for some people, they may have
Speaker 1: a ton of purpose in their life and they don't
Speaker 1: necessarily feel safe in their relationship, or they have low
Speaker 1: quality connections with neighbors and colleagues, although they are experiencing
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of exploration in their environment. So it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily that we have to go sequentially to meet
Speaker 1: all these needs. It's about understanding where we are in
Speaker 1: relation to the needs and starting where we're most compelled
Speaker 1: and most drawn. Beautifully put, yeah, I don't want people
Speaker 1: to think about the hierarchy as an ordering of needs
Speaker 1: that you must meet to some degree. The most important
Speaker 1: aierarchy is the one between safety and growth, but within
Speaker 1: the finally grain needs themselves. We really shouldn't look at
Speaker 1: it as you're not allowed to address other needs until
Speaker 1: certain are met. You can actually address multiple needs simultaneously.
Speaker 1: That you can be extraordinarily poor and being an environment
Speaker 1: that is full of violence and still get your needs
Speaker 1: for connection met through community and through people working together
Speaker 1: to make the community a better place and helping those
Speaker 1: around you. Right, Like, I just don't understand the concept
Speaker 1: of some of the ways people have taken Maslow's theory
Speaker 1: and have corrupted it. So yeah, we want to make
Speaker 1: that clear and why I'll still recognizing that there are
Speaker 1: certain safety needs that are at the table too and
Speaker 1: are extraordinary important and do become stronger and prominence the
Speaker 1: more deprived they are. I want to bring up something, Scott,
Speaker 1: that you discussed back in a podcast you did with
Speaker 1: Sean Carroll, the physicist who also has been a guest
Speaker 1: on our show, Great Guy. There was a short conversation
Speaker 1: that you guys had that I want to take from.
Speaker 1: You were speaking generally, and I'd actually like to take
Speaker 1: it and bring it down more individually. You were talking
Speaker 1: about the idea of this conflict between you as a
Speaker 1: researcher and as sort of a clinician or a person,
Speaker 1: and what you were saying was, sometimes you feel like
Speaker 1: people say, well, we can't make that any better. Everything
Speaker 1: we've tried to do to make that better hasn't worked,
Speaker 1: and they almost say that gleefully, you know, and that
Speaker 1: you're very much like, well, just because we haven't cracked
Speaker 1: the code on how to make that better doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we should stop trying. I want to take that from
Speaker 1: a broad statement about psychology in general, and I'd love
Speaker 1: to bring that down to the individual and I'd love
Speaker 1: to talk about how, as individuals, even if we haven't
Speaker 1: found the growth the healing that we want, the importance
Speaker 1: of continuing to try different things. And so I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if either of you have anything you'd like to kind
Speaker 1: of say about that piece. I just saw a patient
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago, and the conclusion that we came
Speaker 1: to is that the most important word in her avocabulary
Speaker 1: is the word yet, which is I don't believe this yet.
Speaker 1: I haven't found the solution yet. This is someone who
Speaker 1: has experienced trauma in her life, serious interpersonal violence, and
Speaker 1: someone who is in extensive therapy, has been through extensive therapy,
Speaker 1: and who is so deeply committed to getting better and
Speaker 1: still struggles with the ability to believe validating things that
Speaker 1: people are saying about her, the ability to not listen
Speaker 1: to the own negative internal dialogue, and just by putting
Speaker 1: that one word into her vocabulary, I don't believe you
Speaker 1: yet that I am all of these things you're telling
Speaker 1: me I am. It opens up a window of possibility
Speaker 1: of hope. It shows us that there are still opportunities
Speaker 1: to have that growth, and it puts the idea forth
Speaker 1: that change can happen when we're so closed off to
Speaker 1: the possibility that changes possible. Of course, it's not going
Speaker 1: to happen because with all of these interventions, the belief
Speaker 1: is so important. As a doctor, I prescribe medications all
Speaker 1: the time, and I believe that the placebo effect is
Speaker 1: incredibly important. If I have a patient who doesn't believe
Speaker 1: that a medication is going to help them, the medication
Speaker 1: probably won't help them. And I think the same is
Speaker 1: true for behavioral interventions. Yeah, are you referring a little
Speaker 1: bit maybe Ali crumbs work. Oh yes, I'm a huge
Speaker 1: fan of alle crumbs work, me too for sure. Um yea.
Speaker 1: The placebo effect and there is a really good point
Speaker 1: there about being ready and open for growth. You can
Speaker 1: go out and explore, but having the spirit of exploration
Speaker 1: is also important. If you can go out and explore
Speaker 1: and don't have the spirit of it, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not good. You know. Sometimes I'm in a crabby mood
Speaker 1: and I go out. I forced myself to explore, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't often go well because I, like, I know,
Speaker 1: I really just want to go home. I really don't
Speaker 1: want to talk to people right now. So opening yourself
Speaker 1: up to the spirit of exploration is super important as well,
Speaker 1: and having the desire. I think it's so important. There's
Speaker 1: a joke in my field, how many psychiatrists does it
Speaker 1: take to turn in a light bulb. It's one, but
Speaker 1: the light bulb has to really want to change. So
Speaker 1: there has to be that degree of motivation present too.
Speaker 1: We can't force this upon anybody. It really has to
Speaker 1: be intrinsically motivated, I think in order for it to
Speaker 1: be sustained. I'm recovering addict alcoholic and my time in
Speaker 1: a every a A meeting ends the vast vast majority
Speaker 1: of end by saying keep coming back, you know, And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you always keep coming back to a
Speaker 1: you might want to try different things, but the spirit
Speaker 1: of just because you haven't gotten this yet, to use
Speaker 1: your word Jordan's, doesn't mean you won't, right. You know,
Speaker 1: the idea of the belief is if you keep trying,
Speaker 1: And that was certainly that my case with addiction, and
Speaker 1: I've seen countless other people. It took multiple runs at
Speaker 1: this before anything looking like lasting sobriety was achieved. And
Speaker 1: so that word yet is really important, you know, the
Speaker 1: belief that I can heal. I may not have cracked
Speaker 1: the code yet, but I'll keep trying, and maybe not
Speaker 1: trying the same thing every time, right, because that's the
Speaker 1: definition of insanity. I'm curious, Eric, do you remember there
Speaker 1: being a discreet or acute change in your experience between
Speaker 1: sobriety and alcohol use or drug use or was it
Speaker 1: more incremental gradual change. No, in my case, it was
Speaker 1: not incremental or gradual. I ended up getting sober twice
Speaker 1: once at twenty four from heroin addiction, and I had
Speaker 1: a very low bottom. I was a homeless heroin addict,
Speaker 1: and I went into inpatient treatment and then a halfway house.
Speaker 1: So there was a very clear cut. Now I had
Speaker 1: gone into impatient treatment before and it hadn't worked. And
Speaker 1: then I stayed sober about eight years and I drank
Speaker 1: again and a very similar thing. It was all of
Speaker 1: a sudden. It was just like I had to sort
Speaker 1: of cut it off. Although now that we mentioned it,
Speaker 1: I think there were incremental steps along the way of trying.
Speaker 1: You know, when I knew I had to get sober
Speaker 1: the second time, I went to moderation management, which is
Speaker 1: a program, and I was determined I was the best
Speaker 1: moderation management student of all time because I did not
Speaker 1: want to give up drinking. I was like, I have
Speaker 1: got to figure this out because I know what the
Speaker 1: answer is, which is abstinence, and I don't want that.
Speaker 1: But in my case, that turned out to be what
Speaker 1: the answer was. So there were incremental steps. There are
Speaker 1: some people, I think, who walk in the door and
Speaker 1: get sober immediately, but most people, even if they haven't
Speaker 1: been actively seeking professional help or support help, have been
Speaker 1: wrestling inside themselves for a long time. Well, maybe I
Speaker 1: just won't drink on weekends. Maybe I'll just drink beer,
Speaker 1: but not whiskey. We're wrestling with ourselves. So I do
Speaker 1: think there is some measure of incremental change, even in
Speaker 1: what looks like a sudden story. It's kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, you see somebody who's an overnight success, it's
Speaker 1: just because you haven't seen what they were doing behind
Speaker 1: the scenes all that time. Thank you for sharing that
Speaker 1: with us. By the way, just hearing that speaks to
Speaker 1: the fact and a big message throughout our book, and
Speaker 1: that was in transcend is the idea that life is
Speaker 1: not a video game. Once you unlock the path of sobriety,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that it's just a clear cut path
Speaker 1: to the future and no looking back, that that is
Speaker 1: unlocked forever. Sometimes there's many steps back. So I think
Speaker 1: this idea of learning from quote unquote failure and not
Speaker 1: letting ourselves be so bogged down by the fear of
Speaker 1: failure that through every experience there is wisdom to be learned.
Speaker 1: I'd love to ask you guys, how you think about
Speaker 1: an idea that was embedded in what you just said,
Speaker 1: which is we can get so focused on growth that
Speaker 1: we never are where we actually are. We always think
Speaker 1: it's going to be when I heal this, when I
Speaker 1: heal that, when I'm more confident talking to women, when
Speaker 1: I'm all these things, and I know we talked about
Speaker 1: the I'll be happy when story, and we talked about
Speaker 1: it with external things, I'll be happy when I get
Speaker 1: the right job, I'll be happy when I get But
Speaker 1: we also do it with internal states, as if we're
Speaker 1: going to arrive at a state that which life no
Speaker 1: longer is difficult. I'm kind of curious how you guys
Speaker 1: work on that, both in yourselves and in the people
Speaker 1: that you work with. I got that a lot. I
Speaker 1: get like, hey, can I ever take a break from growth?
Speaker 1: Because it's exhausting. And so some growth experiences are growth
Speaker 1: experiences in themselves, even though you're fully present in the
Speaker 1: moment with them. So, for instance, we have lots of
Speaker 1: exercise in our book for savoring for what we call
Speaker 1: the Plato living living more in the being realm where
Speaker 1: you are fully present and you are fully connecting. I
Speaker 1: would make the case that some of the most profound
Speaker 1: growth experiences in life come about when you're not intentionally
Speaker 1: trying to change, but you're engaging in an experience where
Speaker 1: you're being changed. Never put it like that before, but
Speaker 1: I like it. I like it. I know I love that.
Speaker 1: Scott next edition of the book, it's in there. Remember
Speaker 1: that for our future interviews. Seriously, I felt this tension
Speaker 1: really strongly when I was writing the book, because I
Speaker 1: don't know, Scott, if you remember this, I probably texted
Speaker 1: you a bunch of times like I love writing this
Speaker 1: book and I need to go out and do the things,
Speaker 1: like I was thinking about growth so much, and through
Speaker 1: the process of writing and reading all the research and
Speaker 1: collating the exercises, I was like, and I need to
Speaker 1: go just live my life, like I'm spending all this
Speaker 1: time thinking about growth, and not only do I want
Speaker 1: to go out and actually do the things, I just
Speaker 1: want to live and talk to others. And I find
Speaker 1: that that was a real tension, and it was a challenge.
Speaker 1: It was my first book I've ever written, and it
Speaker 1: made it really hard, this tension of living and and
Speaker 1: doing while also getting the work done. And I think
Speaker 1: some of the growth that I've experienced through this journey
Speaker 1: has really just been in talking about the work, not
Speaker 1: even in doing the practices myself, but in hearing the
Speaker 1: perspectives of others and being challenged in my own thoughts
Speaker 1: when I would bring up a topic with someone else,
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't think growth is always necessarily something
Speaker 1: that we go out like you said, Scott, and do actively.
Speaker 1: It's also about the integration of all the stuff when
Speaker 1: we're like lying in bed at night and all the
Speaker 1: day residues are in our heads and we go to
Speaker 1: sleep and sort of wake up feeling like, huh, I
Speaker 1: feel a little bit different today. Yeah, that paradox is
Speaker 1: embedded in a lot of areas that I spend time
Speaker 1: a lot of contemplative type practices because you're doing them
Speaker 1: for a reason. Right, You're not sitting down to meditate
Speaker 1: without any reason. Right. We do things for reasons. And
Speaker 1: yet during meditation, it seems that one of the biggest
Speaker 1: blockers to having and I don't even like this word,
Speaker 1: but I'll use it successful meditation is simply not trying
Speaker 1: to achieve anything, you know, And so there's always that
Speaker 1: sort of paradox. And I think that's what's really interesting here.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we need the energy, you know, the desire for
Speaker 1: growth to take us to the point where we start
Speaker 1: to do some of the growth related things. And then
Speaker 1: I think what you said, Scott is really important, which
Speaker 1: is how do we let go enough that the experiences
Speaker 1: that we're having actually are able to transform us. Because
Speaker 1: if we take that same grasping spirit. There's an openness
Speaker 1: we need to grow. I'm just constantly interested in striking
Speaker 1: that right balance between those two energies. That one of
Speaker 1: my best friend's weddings this weekend, and something that I
Speaker 1: noticed was just dancing to live music and and losing myself,
Speaker 1: getting so far out of my head and just into
Speaker 1: my physical body, dancing and sweating and just not caring
Speaker 1: about what I looked like. I was so in flow
Speaker 1: dancing at this wedding. And we spend some one time
Speaker 1: thinking about how to find ourselves and how to grow
Speaker 1: and how to be so deliberate, and I think it's
Speaker 1: so important to balance that with losing ourselves and having
Speaker 1: those experiences where we are just fully experiencing something out
Speaker 1: of our heads and more into our bodies. You know,
Speaker 1: the interesting thing about losing yourself is that you haven't
Speaker 1: lost yourself forever. There's a psycho pathology where you have
Speaker 1: no idea who yourself is and who you are. I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of people with borderline personality sort of
Speaker 1: report not feeling like they have a basic sense of self.
Speaker 1: In my research, I've tried to distinguish between healthy transcendence
Speaker 1: and on healthy transcendence, and I think that kind of
Speaker 1: losing oneself that Jordan's talking about. I have a whole
Speaker 1: section in transcend where I try to, in a very
Speaker 1: minutily fashion, try to distinguish the finer distinctions, what that
Speaker 1: really means in the brain, what that really means when
Speaker 1: that's happening. It's that I actually think what's happening in
Speaker 1: those moments is, yes, you're not so self focused, but
Speaker 1: there's still is a really deep, deep connection between yourself
Speaker 1: and the world. And I think that the self still
Speaker 1: matters in that moment, even if you're not being consciously
Speaker 1: aware of it. You know, you may have lost your
Speaker 1: attention on your self focus because it's so integrated with
Speaker 1: the world. But for me, healthy transcendence is one where
Speaker 1: you haven't completely lost yourself and you also haven't completely
Speaker 1: lost the world, but the two are fused in a
Speaker 1: oneness sort of way. To me, it's an important level
Speaker 1: of nuance that I don't see discussed even in some
Speaker 1: of Buddhist discussions about this kind of stuff. I know
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to ever criticize the Buddhist they're perfect,
Speaker 1: but I think that's so important, and I actually think
Speaker 1: as you said, being able to lose yourself in that
Speaker 1: way temporarily is actually contingent upon having a very strong
Speaker 1: sense of self. As I was having this revelation, then
Speaker 1: I was observing people around me and looking at who
Speaker 1: else was losing themselves. And I think that I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people who may have some of those
Speaker 1: inter receptive difficulties as we see in borderline personality disorder,
Speaker 1: who lack a clear sense of self, and we can
Speaker 1: unpack what that really means further, who have a lot
Speaker 1: of difficulty accessing that temporary loss of self, because if
Speaker 1: you don't know who you are in the first place,
Speaker 1: it can feel incredibly destabilizing to put yourself in situations
Speaker 1: where you may become further unable to feel where you are,
Speaker 1: or to have that deliberate loss of self consciousness. Wonderful,
Speaker 1: wonderful changing direction to slight bit there. In your section
Speaker 1: on healthy transcendence, you talk about a lot of people
Speaker 1: these days are striving towards transcendence, but are doing so
Speaker 1: without first building a healthy foundation, which is kind of
Speaker 1: what we're speaking to here, is that there are some
Speaker 1: elements of a healthy self that can be very helpful
Speaker 1: in eventually getting to the point where we're able to
Speaker 1: let go of that self a little bit more or
Speaker 1: be less focused on it. In that section of the book,
Speaker 1: you say that in healthy transcendence, we don't choose ourselves
Speaker 1: over others, and we don't choose others over ourselves. There's
Speaker 1: a harmonious integration between self and world. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know. I'm also just wondering if there's an important
Speaker 1: distinction to be made between self and being, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of pure being. Maslow talked about the state of
Speaker 1: pure being and how that's what happens when you're in
Speaker 1: a peak experience, and I've been trying to understand what
Speaker 1: that means exactly from a scientific point of view. How
Speaker 1: can we measure what not someone's in the state of
Speaker 1: pure being or not? And I think some of it
Speaker 1: is not being focused on your self representations, um not
Speaker 1: being focused on yourself critical feedback about what's happening in
Speaker 1: the moment, like oh, what I'm doing is awkward or
Speaker 1: this is wrong, or I'm wrong or I'm bad, you know,
Speaker 1: So the self critical part reflecting on the system aren't active.
Speaker 1: And I think that's why psychedelics is so helpful for
Speaker 1: so many people. To tap into their pure being because
Speaker 1: you don't have the self critical facilities when you're in
Speaker 1: a psychedelic trip, is what I hear at least, what
Speaker 1: does that mean? It t happen to pure being? And
Speaker 1: what I think is beautiful is that so many people
Speaker 1: describe that when they're in pure being, like they all
Speaker 1: describe love, a sense of oneness, and a sense of peace.
Speaker 1: And I think there's something really, really deeply profound here.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to scientifically understand, but I think there's a
Speaker 1: deep truth about what it means to feel God. Even
Speaker 1: if you don't believe in God, I believe there is
Speaker 1: the experience of God. You're wandering into territory that I
Speaker 1: think about an awful lot, because we talk about self
Speaker 1: in so many different ways and we mean so many
Speaker 1: different things by it. My experience of having had a
Speaker 1: few what we would consider sort of classic mystical type
Speaker 1: experiences where any sense of separation between me and anything
Speaker 1: else like truly vanished. It was less that there was
Speaker 1: no self present, It was more that everything was self.
Speaker 1: Normally what we feel, at least for me, normally, what
Speaker 1: I feel most connected to is me and what I
Speaker 1: want In these experiences. It was the difference between me
Speaker 1: and the other things wasn't really there. The tree felt
Speaker 1: as important as Eric felt in that moment. But what
Speaker 1: I think is totally fascinating is I think there are
Speaker 1: layers of this, of shedding layers of self, and how
Speaker 1: am I moving closer to my true self, which is
Speaker 1: still my individual weight itself? And then this sort of
Speaker 1: pure being and what is my individuated self because it's
Speaker 1: certainly deeply conditioned, you know, it's deeply conditioned by all
Speaker 1: my experiences. So if I were to strip those experiences away,
Speaker 1: these topics get very heavy, very quickly, but I find
Speaker 1: them fascinating. What we're talking about right now is probably
Speaker 1: the first foremost on my mind right now, um in life.
Speaker 1: I just constantly meditate on it and try to figure
Speaker 1: out how I can recalibrate myself. So I'm in deeply
Speaker 1: touch with And then the question is what, what with?
Speaker 1: What what am I talking about? But there it's something,
Speaker 1: There is something within me and I think within everyone
Speaker 1: that when you can quiet everything else around you, you
Speaker 1: can quiet the social media, you can quiet all the
Speaker 1: influences of other people on you, and you get in
Speaker 1: touch with something that is so uniquely you as unique
Speaker 1: creative potential. It makes you feel alive if you can
Speaker 1: get in touch with that. I do think you are
Speaker 1: getting in touch with the potentiality for a real calling
Speaker 1: that only you can answer. And uh, I don't know
Speaker 1: if this sounds too oprah at this point, but I
Speaker 1: really do believe this to be true. It's so interesting
Speaker 1: because the way that you're describing the dissolution of self
Speaker 1: consciousness that for me, hearkens the flow state, which requires
Speaker 1: a certain amount of expertise and ability to meet a challenge.
Speaker 1: So I think it's hard to find that in areas
Speaker 1: where we haven't yet cultivated some high degree of mastery.
Speaker 1: I suppose that that could certainly unlock new potentials in
Speaker 1: the area in which we've already like had this optimal
Speaker 1: balance of skill and challenge. But are you referring to
Speaker 1: like brand new potentiality, Scott, or are these born out
Speaker 1: of areas where we already have some degree of excellence
Speaker 1: or ordered psychic energy. Well, I do think talent is
Speaker 1: a thing. I think that we have some potentialities. They
Speaker 1: grow greater greater than other potentialities. My full potentiality for
Speaker 1: NBA basketball playing isn't as wide in scope as Lebron James's,
Speaker 1: you know, and getting in touch with um which lanes
Speaker 1: we can really make a real contribution to the world.
Speaker 1: And if we put our heart and soul into it,
Speaker 1: if we get into the flow state, if we have grit.
Speaker 1: It takes a lot. I mean, I'm not saying it's
Speaker 1: easy to fully realize our potentials, but part of the
Speaker 1: self actualation process is getting in touch with those potentials
Speaker 1: to begin with, and to really get get clear on
Speaker 1: what they are. Humans aren't born with a manual that
Speaker 1: tells you all of your genes and what you're capable
Speaker 1: of if you mix and match certan genes with certain environments.
Speaker 1: Were in the dark. We're in the dark about all that.
Speaker 1: That's the process of creating ourselves and discovering ourselves and
Speaker 1: what we're capable of is through that interaction between us
Speaker 1: and the environment and real rising. Wow, I really can
Speaker 1: make a huge, huge difference if I go in this
Speaker 1: direction versus if I go in this direction, maybe I'm
Speaker 1: purely having hedonistic pleasures, But am I making a big contribution?
Speaker 1: You know? And being able to sort all of that
Speaker 1: out and commit to certain directions to me, I just
Speaker 1: see as part of the transcender journey and then meeting
Speaker 1: the practical concerns of our environments and the needs that
Speaker 1: we have to contribute to our communities and our families,
Speaker 1: and how we can actually support people, which I know,
Speaker 1: Scott is part of your vision is supporting young people
Speaker 1: in their journey from very early on in life to
Speaker 1: figure out and to get on some of those paths.
Speaker 1: I think, Scott, we struggle with this, is transcendence an
Speaker 1: equitable resource in our current world? And how do we
Speaker 1: make it more equitable? And I think the practices in
Speaker 1: our book are totally accessible to anyone wherever they are
Speaker 1: coming from. And I think that we also recognize that
Speaker 1: the ability to grow can be easier for some than others,
Speaker 1: just based on their circumstances and the very real practical
Speaker 1: realities of life. You talk about character strengths, and you
Speaker 1: also talk about finding values and purpose, because I think
Speaker 1: what we're trying to find out is what is my
Speaker 1: unique stamp, what is my ability to contribute based on
Speaker 1: Some things are going to be external, my family of origin,
Speaker 1: where I live, my financial situation. Some things are going
Speaker 1: to be internal, my genetic makeup. Some things are going
Speaker 1: to be the conditions I've had, But how do I
Speaker 1: start to puzzle out what that is what's important to me?
Speaker 1: And I wanted to talk about strengths for a second,
Speaker 1: because you guys talk about strengths and there's something that
Speaker 1: I love. I think you're quoting somebody else, but it's
Speaker 1: a really important idea, and you're talking about character strengths,
Speaker 1: and you say that talent can be squandered, skills can diminish,
Speaker 1: and resources can be lost, but strengths crystallize and evolve
Speaker 1: and can integrate with these other positive qualities to contribute
Speaker 1: to the greater good. So share a little bit about
Speaker 1: why character strength is such an important piece in this book.
Speaker 1: That question. That is Ryan Nemick, by the way, that
Speaker 1: comes from his amazing book Mindfulness and Character Strength. So
Speaker 1: we need to give him credit. He is like the
Speaker 1: strength mastermind. He's at VIA Institute in Cincinnati, Ohio, which
Speaker 1: is a physical place and a robust online resource with
Speaker 1: lots of educational programming. And there's actually an inventory that
Speaker 1: we refer to in the book and we list the
Speaker 1: twenty four character strengths that VIA has outlined. It was
Speaker 1: one of the earliest projects in positive psychology to outline
Speaker 1: these strengths of character that have been observed in all
Speaker 1: people in all cultures across the world. And the idea
Speaker 1: is that with a few pathological exceptions, we all have
Speaker 1: all of these character strengths in different compositions and perhaps
Speaker 1: two different degrees, but we all have all of them,
Speaker 1: and they can vary, and we can use different ones
Speaker 1: across different settings and times and developmental stages of our lives.
Speaker 1: But our character strengths, and especially the signature strengths, those
Speaker 1: few strengths that really are fundamental to who we are,
Speaker 1: that if they were taken away from us, we would
Speaker 1: not be us. That when we use those, they're like
Speaker 1: our superpowers. They are human superpowers that help us connect
Speaker 1: with others, achieve our goals, engage in the world. And
Speaker 1: like any superpower, there can be too much of a
Speaker 1: good thing. It's not like we just want to slap
Speaker 1: these on to everything that we do in our lives
Speaker 1: in every way and discriminately. That there is this golden
Speaker 1: mean of strengths and we should use them deliberately and mindfully,
Speaker 1: which is the whole goal of Ryan's last book is
Speaker 1: how to how to mindfully use our character strengths, but
Speaker 1: that when we can tap into these, I think that
Speaker 1: is one very potent, potential pathway to do exactly what
Speaker 1: Scott is talking about, which is to find our path
Speaker 1: and live our potential. Yeah. I really like that, And
Speaker 1: I want to be clear that when we talk strengths, yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't just mean talents. I do mean aspects of
Speaker 1: our character as well can be great seeds for making
Speaker 1: a real contribution in the world. Even just realizing like
Speaker 1: maybe humor, maybe humor is your strength. That happens to
Speaker 1: me one of my top three for people who are
Speaker 1: of humor is one of their top strengths. They use
Speaker 1: it to diffuse tense situations. They can use it to
Speaker 1: create world peace. Never underestimate how much your aspects of
Speaker 1: your character can china light in the world. I love
Speaker 1: that part of the book because you guys said that,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the ways that people respond to
Speaker 1: whether it be doing the exercise in your book or
Speaker 1: taking the test online from via, is they get their strengths.
Speaker 1: But then we tend to sort of soft pedal. I'm like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but everybody's funny. You know, everybody has a sense of
Speaker 1: humor and no, no, that is clearly not true. But
Speaker 1: you talk about really learning to sort of step into
Speaker 1: those and you know, embrace them. You should see the
Speaker 1: Character Strengths Classic Columbia, the section we do in character Strengths,
Speaker 1: and I run through each one and asked the students
Speaker 1: to raise their hand, and they're so proud of their characters,
Speaker 1: their top strength. I said, who in the class whose
Speaker 1: top strength is love? And they're like me, me, you know,
Speaker 1: like and um, well that could just be the you know,
Speaker 1: college students. But there's a great sense of excitement and
Speaker 1: uh and revealing to others what is your top strength.
Speaker 1: It's also just so antithetical to the way we normally
Speaker 1: think about ourselves. I mean, the way I think the
Speaker 1: average human being thinks about themselves is probably not in
Speaker 1: terms of what they're great at. In character. They may
Speaker 1: think about talents or skills, and I would bet that
Speaker 1: most often they're thinking about what they can work on
Speaker 1: and what their weaknesses are, because that is how we're wired.
Speaker 1: That's the negativity bias, the vestigial gift of our evolution.
Speaker 1: And I'm joking when I call it a gift, because
Speaker 1: it really taints the way we think and focuses us
Speaker 1: to think about what's wrong with us, and I do
Speaker 1: the same thing Scott. With medical students and residents. We
Speaker 1: spot strengths in one another, and after we do this exercise,
Speaker 1: I swear the class it's a different energy altogether. So
Speaker 1: often and in medicine and in psychology, we're focused on
Speaker 1: characterizing a chief complaint and dissecting every dimension of what's
Speaker 1: wrong with someone. And then when we can bring character
Speaker 1: strengths in the discussion, that offers a path forward to
Speaker 1: how we can actually not just use what's right with us,
Speaker 1: but how we can start to adroitly move up those
Speaker 1: lower strengths or start to improve a weakness by using
Speaker 1: our top strength. So you know, maybe self regulation is
Speaker 1: something that someone struggles with, and if love is a
Speaker 1: top character strength, how can we use love and connection
Speaker 1: to bolster self regulation and physical activity? For example, do
Speaker 1: it with another person, get an accountability partner. So I
Speaker 1: love strengths because they help shine a light on how
Speaker 1: we can improve the things that the humans naturally default to,
Speaker 1: which is thinking about the things that aren't so great
Speaker 1: about us. Slight pivot from strengths is values and purpose.
Speaker 1: I love this section your book I've got a program
Speaker 1: called Spiritual Habits and you can go through one level.
Speaker 1: Level two is a Circle of Connection, and we spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time working on values and you know,
Speaker 1: going through a lot of different ways of looking at values.
Speaker 1: I'm curious for you, guys, what are some of the
Speaker 1: best ways you think for people to elicit what is
Speaker 1: most important to them, what matters most of them. Well,
Speaker 1: I think, as we talk about in the book, when
Speaker 1: we've worked together to co teach and teaching Scott's online
Speaker 1: Transcend course, what I'm most shocked by is how few
Speaker 1: people have ever been encouraged to even think about this
Speaker 1: question of what matters most to me? Given how important
Speaker 1: our values are in guiding our behavior and our decisions,
Speaker 1: it's bananas that it's not something that's necessarily on the
Speaker 1: top of our minds every day. So the question is
Speaker 1: so important because I think it's so important to get
Speaker 1: people to think about their values, to understand their behaviors,
Speaker 1: and to understand how to live more deliberately in line
Speaker 1: with those things that actually do matter to them, rather
Speaker 1: than being on autopilot sort of going through the day
Speaker 1: to day slog of life. So I love the Shalom
Speaker 1: Schwartz is nineteen values that we depict in our book
Speaker 1: in the in the Circular Wheel, because that model shows
Speaker 1: how values can be related to each other and can
Speaker 1: sometimes conflict with one another or complement each other and
Speaker 1: lead to entra personal conflict, conflict within our own selves
Speaker 1: when they're contrasting values that we hold that maybe guiding
Speaker 1: behavior and causing some some psychic conflict. And then when
Speaker 1: we think about the last time we were really mad
Speaker 1: or had really strong negative feelings about something, it's probably
Speaker 1: because one of our deeply held values was violated in
Speaker 1: some way. So I love thinking about how values that
Speaker 1: oppose each other can cause both intrapersonal and interpersonal conflict.
Speaker 1: Another thing I like to do is just show people
Speaker 1: a list of values. I think we do this in
Speaker 1: the book, and I've seen this done in cognitive behavioral
Speaker 1: therapy and and DBT exercises where people just see a
Speaker 1: list of values and they can sort of look their
Speaker 1: it and be like, yeah, like this is so important
Speaker 1: to me, and we realize how many things we value,
Speaker 1: and then when we try to consolidate and condense that
Speaker 1: to maybe a top five or even a top three,
Speaker 1: if that can be done. What we encourage folks to
Speaker 1: do is to define what the value means, because you know,
Speaker 1: maybe family is a value or connection, but those things
Speaker 1: can mean different things for different people. And then think
Speaker 1: about how are we living by that value every day
Speaker 1: or even every week, and how can we close the
Speaker 1: gap between the way we are currently living and the
Speaker 1: value that we hold. That's what we encourage folks to do,
Speaker 1: and I've I've done this with medical students over the years,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really awesome. Yes, And sometimes by
Speaker 1: understanding that some things in life do conflict and don't
Speaker 1: need to be integrated, the legit conflict allows us to
Speaker 1: say no to things that are not in our priority
Speaker 1: list so that we can make room for the things
Speaker 1: that are in our priority list. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of people who might feel guilt and saying no to
Speaker 1: some things because someone else is so excited about it.
Speaker 1: But if you're not so excited about it, if it's
Speaker 1: not a hell yes for you, you know you have
Speaker 1: a right to honor that within your soul. I love that.
Speaker 1: So my last question is directed primarily to you Jordan's
Speaker 1: but Scott of course had love to have you pipe in.
Speaker 1: But Jordan a lot of your work, as I understand
Speaker 1: it listening to you on another podcasts, has been working
Speaker 1: with medical professionals on how they take care of themselves.
Speaker 1: And so I want to tie this to purpose because
Speaker 1: we talked about how important purposes. And I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say this is the case for everybody, but I
Speaker 1: would imagine that a lot of people who have gone
Speaker 1: through medical school and have become doctors did that because
Speaker 1: of a sense of purpose. We also know that the
Speaker 1: environments we find ourselves in, the situations we find ourselves in,
Speaker 1: the circumstances we find ourselves in, often grind that purpose
Speaker 1: down until intellectually I might go, well, I became a
Speaker 1: doctor because I care about helping people, but there's no
Speaker 1: emotional spark to that at all anymore. What are ways
Speaker 1: of either reconnecting with that purpose, rekindling that purpose, or
Speaker 1: concluding that indeed, that purpose is no longer the right
Speaker 1: purpose for us and it's time to pivot. And I
Speaker 1: know that's a big question, but Eric, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And I think we choose to go into health care
Speaker 1: for exactly that, to have a career that is inherently purposeful.
Speaker 1: And the same is true for psychology and teaching and
Speaker 1: so many fields, and exactly what you said. I think
Speaker 1: the process, the education, the getting cultured into the field
Speaker 1: wears down some of our empathy because the day to
Speaker 1: day work just becomes so bereft of the emotional content,
Speaker 1: such that if we felt everything that our patients were feeling,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't be able to do the job in the
Speaker 1: first place. Then we go home exhausted, don't want to
Speaker 1: talk about it. I literally had this conversation with my
Speaker 1: husband who's also in healthcare, at our dinner table last night,
Speaker 1: and he was actually telling me what a great day
Speaker 1: he had because he had such a purposeful day. He
Speaker 1: was really thinking about the human being and how much
Speaker 1: easier it was for him to do that and feel
Speaker 1: the purpose when things were going well in the job.
Speaker 1: He was actually successful, he was combating some of the
Speaker 1: inefficiencies in the system. He was actually able to do
Speaker 1: what he needed to do for his patients, and that
Speaker 1: felt purposeful. But so often that is the exception to
Speaker 1: the rule rather than the norm, because the system is
Speaker 1: just there are so many problems. So what I talk
Speaker 1: about is doctors and training practicing physicians, how do we
Speaker 1: reflect on the day and think about how you made
Speaker 1: an impact today in your work, in another person's life.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not something that you think about in the moment,
Speaker 1: but retrospectively at the end of the day, similar to
Speaker 1: the three good things exercise of reflecting on three good
Speaker 1: things that happen, what are three ways that you enacted
Speaker 1: your sense of purpose today? And also remembering that as
Speaker 1: health care workers, we are also human beings again, with
Speaker 1: a multitude of drives and interests and passions, and that
Speaker 1: we can connect with our sense of purpose outside of
Speaker 1: work as well, So thinking about how to nurture those
Speaker 1: other facets of ourselves to find meaning and flow and
Speaker 1: not just requiring us to get all of that meaning
Speaker 1: in our work, and remembering we are human beings and
Speaker 1: sometimes it can be really hard. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: feel that I'm capping out on my sense of meaning
Speaker 1: and purpose every single day at work, but that it's
Speaker 1: a deliberate process of connecting and reconnecting with the things
Speaker 1: that do matter to us and also finding it elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Anything you'd like to add to that, Scott, No, I
Speaker 1: just want to honor Jordan there enter spearheading this field
Speaker 1: positive medicine. I think so important. It's going to really
Speaker 1: revolutionize the health care industry because it honors that we're
Speaker 1: more just our bodies. Yeah, it's so important. I really
Speaker 1: admire the work that you're doing there as well. Jordan's well, Scott, Jordan's.
Speaker 1: It has been a pleasure to have you on Scott,
Speaker 1: A pleasure to see you again, Jordan's pleasure to meet
Speaker 1: you for the first time. I really really have appreciated
Speaker 1: this conversation and thank you. Thank you, Eric. I'm a
Speaker 1: big fan of yours and uh, I love your way
Speaker 1: of being. I almost wish we could talk more and
Speaker 1: hang out more. Me too. If what you just heard
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