1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Live from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound on 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: China is something that actually unites Republican to Democrats. We 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: have a huge problem of cybersecurity and it's growing. We've 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: got to have wealthier people and corporations being more of 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: a fair share. Bloomberg Sound on the insiders, the influencers, 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: the insights. President Biden likes to be the big thing. 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: He likes to put out the big concepts. There's still 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: a long way to go with this flat tacks month. 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: This is a Democrat or Republican. This is an American issue. 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: Schloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: road show begins. Thanks for joining us on Bloomberg Radio. 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: As President Biden leaves the bubble to sell the infrastructure 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: bill and what many consider to be Trump Country, we'll 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: bring it to southwest Wisconsin coming up, as the White 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: House makes the pitch to small towns and rural communities 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: that need new bridge is in, faster internet, clean water ahead. 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: We'll talk about the infrastructure push with Washington d C. 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: Mayor Muriel Bowser and later with Republican Congressman Blaine Luca 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: Meyer of Missouri. We begin today in Lacrosse, Wisconsin, a 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: small city about fifty one thousand on the Mississippi River 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: where you don't need to drive too far to find 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: sprawling farmland. That is where the White House chose to 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: continue the sales pitch on infrastructure. More than one thousand 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: bridges here in Wisconsin are rated as structurally deficient by 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: engineers just in Wisconsin, and I'm not that doesn't make 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: Wisconsin better or worse. It's all across the nation. President 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: Biden speaking at the low Crosse Municipal Transit Utility, a 28 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: bus center where the optics were deliberate. Bruce was playing 29 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: on the radio a stage surrounded by construction equipment, spools 30 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: of cable, a hard had casually placed road signs that 31 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: read a future made in America, and Joe Biden's folksy 32 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: side on full display. Today. We're gonna talk about this 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: with a couple of people who stand to benefit from 34 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: infrastructure improvements, but likely have different needs and different ideas 35 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: on how to pay for things, likely do not agree 36 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: in the end on what it should all include how 37 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: big it should be. And we start this morning, make 38 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: that this afternoon with the Mayor of Washington, D C. 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: Muriel Bowser in New York today for a special event. 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: Mayor Bowser, Welcome to Bloomberg Radio. Thank you for having me. 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: I know you joined six mayors from around the country 42 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: and the world today as part of a Bloomberg Philanthropies 43 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: panel discuss solutions to enhance public services. The mission of 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: your conversation it sounds a lot like our national conversation 45 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: around infrastructure, and I'd like to ask you about that 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: with regard to the district. As President Biden takes the 47 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: show on the road today, can you tell us what 48 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: your critical needs are in the district. We can take 49 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: these one at a time. How with the how would 50 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: the hard infrastructure Bill, the bipartisan bill work for the 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: capital city. Well, that's a great question. And actually today 52 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: while I'm in New York, I will be touring with 53 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: the president of Amtrak the new Moynahan Train Hall in 54 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: New York City, and I'll be doing that with a 55 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: group of business leaders UM from d c UH and 56 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: our goal is UH to focus on the transformation of 57 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: Washington Union Station. UH and this infrastructure bill UM would 58 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: include over twenty five billion dollars that cities like ours 59 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: would compete for to invest in transformative infrastructure projects like 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: Washington Union Station. So it really means and hard dollars 61 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: and cents about two billion dollars UM that would go 62 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: a long way to the eight billion dollar transformation of 63 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: Washington Union Station. Does that bill have enough money for 64 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: public transportation? In your opinion? We always need more for 65 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: for public transportation. UH. And the federal government's recognition, UH 66 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: that it has to be involved with cities and regions 67 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: and transforming public transit is important. UH. And when I 68 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: say that, however, I know you're talking about mass transit. 69 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: I assume, but we're also talking about the commuter rails 70 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: that will go into Union Station. We're also talking about 71 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: our airports at um Reagan National and Washington Dulles, and 72 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: all of those were going to be important and important 73 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: part of our comeback. We're letting on the nation know 74 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: that d C is open. We want our travelers back. 75 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: And UH, it is great to be able to say 76 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: for the last six team months that there have been 77 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: some critical improvements UH to those facilities. We were at 78 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: DC National a couple of weeks ago with the President 79 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: of American Airlines. They can completely transformed a terminal there 80 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: and we know there have also been other improvements at 81 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: at our airports, but UM, focusing on the corridor getting 82 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: people on the Amtrak to come back to Washington is 83 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: going to be hugely important for us, including our business travelers. 84 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: Now this is my first UM business trip, UM trip, 85 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. It feels fantastic. UM. But we know that 86 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: we we got a lot of work done, certainly virtually 87 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: and on zoom and we know a lot of companies 88 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: have had that experience. UM. But frankly, it's great to 89 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: see so many people milling around here at Bloomberg in 90 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: New York City. UM, and we know that people want 91 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: to get back to those face to face business meetings too. 92 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: I was looking at the infrastructure report card for the 93 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: District of Columbia, and you talk about infrastructure sectors where 94 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: data is scarce or unreliable, school facilities, levees, stormwater still 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: suffering from a lack of condition information or inventory of assets. 96 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: I read and there are significant challenges that lie ahead 97 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: following the pandemic following COVID, where with revenue streams I read, 98 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: threatening to derail the progress made over the past four years. 99 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: We had a pedestrian bridge collapse last week over to 100 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: I wonder where your head is on this recovery from 101 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: COVID and getting enough money to fix problems like this one. Well, 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: it's uh. Investing in our nations. Infrastructure has to be 103 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: a national pride priority, and I think it has to 104 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: be a m We have to have some uh a 105 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: national sense of pride about it. And certainly when we 106 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: we travel internationally and we see the improvements to some 107 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: airports around the world, we want all of our airports 108 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: UH to to be updated as well. You're talking about real, uh, 109 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: the real facilities that people interact with every day, Like 110 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: that pedestrian bridge. It was hit UM. So I don't 111 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: want to give anybody the impression that it just fell 112 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: down in the highway. UM. It was struck by a 113 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: vehicle UH, and it failed and it it collapsed. We 114 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: were very lucky that nobody um was seriously injured UH 115 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: in that collision. UM. But it does speak to how 116 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: transportation infrastructure has a community development impact as well, and 117 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: how the highway system had been used, had been developed 118 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: in mid century to divide communities, and that pedestrian bridge 119 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: literally connected UH to underserved communities UM to each other. UM. 120 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: Now in the start of my a mayoralty in ten U. 121 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: We actually invested in a new bridge just the little 122 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: ways south UM from where that collision happened that connects 123 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: the metro station UM to a community just to the south. 124 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: So we need to do more of that, and we 125 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: need to do it faster UH. And the promise of 126 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: a massive infrastructure bill. Keep in mind we've been talking 127 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: about this in earnest for the last five years, doing 128 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: one more infrastructure bill UM. But the promise of having 129 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: a big investment it means all of the public UH 130 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: workers will be focused on getting that money out the door. 131 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: The private sector companies will increase their capacity to get 132 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: it out the door. UM. So what we really need 133 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: is to be able to do projects like this, get 134 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: people hired, but also deliver them faster. A lot of 135 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: these public infrastructure projects, from conception to funding to implementation 136 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: are six, maybe eight ten years UM from getting done UM. 137 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: And I think in part of our partnership with Bloomberg 138 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: is to allow us to use UM digital tools UH 139 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: to do these projects more quickly. Lastly, Mayor Bowser, just 140 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: want to ask you, in terms of human infrastructure, the 141 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: other plan Democrats are working on would include childcare, elder care. 142 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: Do you believe those investments will help to get people 143 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: back to work or is it COVID in the District 144 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: of Columbia that's keeping some people away. Well, it's not covid, UM, 145 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: but it is how COVID has transformed UM our ways 146 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: of working. We've crushed we're crushing this virus and d C. 147 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: We have driven down our case counts, hospitalizations and deaths 148 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: related to COVID in a dramatic way. UM. That's why 149 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: we were able to open on June eleven UH. D 150 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: C government will be fully in person by July eleven, 151 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: UH and we know that all of our office UH 152 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: office workers and the tenants of our office buildings can 153 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: feel very safe in going back to work. Metro is 154 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: open and can accommodate UH commuters and going back to work. 155 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: And we've also been working hand in hand with our 156 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: childcare providers to make sure that they can get open 157 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: UM too. So we have many childcare providers that are open, 158 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: but still many more to open. In school. UM will 159 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: be in person five days a week UM for for 160 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: this fall. UM. So we know there's a lot of 161 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: parts of our UM, of our system of supporting young 162 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: people UM that have had been offline or modified that 163 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: will be back place. UM. But I agree with President 164 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: Biden UH in saying that UM child care and elder 165 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: care is part of our nation's infrastructure that allows people 166 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: to work. I'll just use myself as an example. I 167 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: have a three year old and I have eighty year 168 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: old parents, and they both need my help. UM. And 169 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: I'm in that kind of generation of people that's getting 170 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: pulled in all directions. And for people to be truly 171 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: productive UM, to have a reliable, UM, caring, vetted people 172 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: UM that can help with that care. I just learned 173 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: this term from one of my fellow I team members 174 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: from Bogata. UM. If we if we are relieving ourselves 175 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: at that burden of care, which we know disproportionately false 176 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: to women, UM, we will will get all of our 177 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: workforce back Washington, d C. May Air Muriel Bowser, many 178 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us today on Bloomberg Radio Live from Washington, 179 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: where there are a lot of questions about what should 180 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: end up in the infrastructure plan, the bipartisan bill, the 181 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: bigger human infrastructure of legislation, how many pieces, and how 182 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna pay for it. That's where we begin with 183 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: Congressman Blaine Luke Kahmeyer, Republican from Missouri who serves on 184 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: the House Financial Services Committee and is also ranking member 185 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: on subcommittees on Small Business and Consumer Protection. Congressman, welcome 186 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: back to Bloomberg Radio. Got do with you, Joe, Well, 187 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: thanks for being here. I've been going through the Missouri 188 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,479 Speaker 1: Infrastructure report card by the American Society of Civil Engineers. 189 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: It points out that your state has the seventh largest 190 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: number of bridges in the country, as well the seventh 191 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: biggest highway network in the country. So Congressman will start here. 192 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: Is this infrastructure build good for small businesses? Your specialty? Here? 193 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: Are you more worried about the price tech? Well, I 194 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: think we've got several bills out there, so let's be 195 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: sure we're talking about the right one here. Why don't 196 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: we start with the bipartisan bill bill. Yeah, the Biparson 197 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: Bill has probably got some good stuff in it for 198 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 1: where everybody. It's got a few things. I'm the price 199 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: takes a little a little iffy for me, but uh, 200 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: it's not paid for it, which is a problem. But 201 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: I think there's stuff in there that actually would be 202 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: good for my district. But for rule Missouri, good for 203 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: our cities and towns in our state. But you know 204 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: it's it's it's got some problems yet as well. What 205 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: are they Well, I think you know you're looking at 206 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: number one, how do you pay for it? Now? They 207 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: haven't figured out how they're gonna pay for it and 208 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: what they're they're doing. If you go with the administration's 209 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: tax plan as how they're going to pay for this, 210 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: this is a disaster for small businesses. Um. The tax 211 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: plan you know you're looking at, you know, you raise 212 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: the corporate right sea corporate about third a million small 213 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: businesses or sea corps um. If you look at just 214 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: the inheritance um problem, the inheritance tax problem. With the bill, 215 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: you institute something kind of new which we never had 216 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: for about forty years here, which is the stepped up 217 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: basis for inheritance. Uh So, Like I had a guy 218 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: the other day, it was a farmer. He said, Blaine, 219 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: if this goes through, I bought my farm forty years 220 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: ago for three dollars an acre, and now it's worth 221 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: six thousand dollars an acre for my family will never 222 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: be able to pay the taxes on it when I 223 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: pass away. We're gonna lose the form. I mean, that's 224 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: how impactful that that could be to small businesses and farmers. Um, 225 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: they're going to double a capital gains tax, which is 226 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: how small businesses use their dollars to be able to 227 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: reinvest in business and their interest in their their own 228 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: structures and and and equipment. So, um, it's just the 229 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: bill that the tax bill that the administration is proposing 230 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: to pay for all this is a disaster from the 231 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: standpoint of the infrastructure bill itself. That the deals with infrastructure, yeah, 232 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: would be very helpful from standpoints You get broadband in there, 233 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: and you can go to roads and bridges, airports, ports, 234 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: those are all important to small business. But the pay 235 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: force is where there is the Zillow the details here, 236 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: and that's where the problem that So a couple of 237 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: things here, then, Congressman, are are you comfortable if this 238 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: was deficit spending that that did not hike taxes on 239 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: small businesses or on consumers for that matter. And should 240 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: farmers in your districts get a carve out an exception 241 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: from the estate tax if they essentially pass along a 242 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: farm to their kids and maintain it as a family 243 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: operated farm. Should that be a special category. Well, I think, 244 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: you know, farmers are a business and all small businesses 245 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: are you fall in this category? Show? I think, well 246 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: as opposed to selling an offer condos or something. Congressman, Well, 247 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: that's that's an individual decision. Again, you're you're you're trying 248 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, I'm not sure a carve out 249 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: is what I would be looking for, but I think 250 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: just across the board, just to have a stepthop basis 251 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: for inheritance. Uh, that's wrong. That's a bad way to go. 252 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: They threw it out back in seventy six. I think 253 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: we'll hopefully we'll throw it out again. But even if 254 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: they if they do, there still is some major changes 255 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: to the inheritance tax uh structure the way that it 256 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: is right now. They want to revert back very similar 257 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: to what it was prior to the tax cut bill 258 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: that we passed back in seventeen. So, um, you know, 259 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why death has to be a taxable occurrence. 260 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: M people have paid taxes already. They've accumulated those dollars 261 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: and pay taxes on them, and they invested them and 262 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: and through the bloos foot and tears have been able 263 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: to have a farm or a business. And I'm not 264 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: sure why we think that death is a taxable occurrence 265 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: and why we need to go after people once again, 266 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: that's that's the question in my mind that we shouldn't 267 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: have an inherence tax begin with. We're talking with Congressman 268 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: Blain Ludkemyer, Republican from Missouri on Bloomberg Radio, getting back 269 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: to paying for it? Then? Is it? Is it okay? 270 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: If it makes if it's debt spaying, deficit spending, we 271 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: have a bigger debt, is long? Is it doesn't hike taxes? Well, 272 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: let's let's let's look at the Let's look at the 273 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: Republican plan here for a minute, Joel, and and just 274 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: give you a template for how this could actually work. Um. 275 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: It's called the Starter Act two point oh. It's about 276 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 1: little over four hundred billion dollars and it's paid for it. 277 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: And the way they pay for it is they utilize 278 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: the Higay Trust funds. The other plan that you're talking 279 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: about here, they utilize the trust funds and bankrupt the 280 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: plan within about two years. Um, what are the Republican 281 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: plan is you take the Highway Trust Fund and it's 282 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: about a hundred and fifty billion, and then I take 283 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: another two hundred and fIF billion out of existing UM 284 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: funds that are authorized that are not utilized. And the 285 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: Cares Act and subsequent bills that we've passed have have 286 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: got a lot of dollars out there that really been 287 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: authorized and UM there's access in some of these accounts 288 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: that we can go after and and the utilize those dollars. 289 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: That's how you pay for something. The other plans that 290 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: they're talking about here are either you go proNT money 291 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: or you go get it from the taxpayers and from 292 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: our taxes, and those quests thanks, are not options that 293 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: I can support. Congressman Blaine luke Meyer, Republican from Missouri, 294 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: many thanks for being with us today, sharing your insights 295 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: and bringing us your perspective on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for 296 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: being with us, and welcome to Bloomberg Sound On for Tuesday. 297 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: Is fang too big to fail? And should those companies 298 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: be brought down to size? Some big questions facing lawmakers 299 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill. As Democrats in the House pass a 300 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: series of bills aimed at limiting big tech companies Apple, Facebook, 301 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: Google from squashing the competition. It's one of the few 302 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: issues that seems to have bipartisan support here in Washington. 303 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: That's big tech getting too big. We've heard from many 304 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: Republicans who say these companies, particularly those in social media, 305 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: are stifling free speech. While Democrats have passed a series 306 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: of anti trust bill, six of them aimed squarely at 307 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: the fan companies Apple, Facebook, Google, Congressman David Cicilini Demo 308 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: Crowd from Rhode Island share as a House Committee on 309 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: anti trust. As American families shift more of their work, shopping, 310 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: and communication online, these giants stand to profit locally owned businesses. Meanwhile, 311 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: mom and pop stores on Main Street fac an economic 312 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: crisis unlike any in recent history. As hard it is 313 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: to believe, it's possible that our economy will emerge from 314 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: this crisis even more concentrated and consolidated than before. When 315 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 1: joined on Bloomberg sound On by an expert on this, 316 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Jen Ree, Welcome, Jen, It's great to 317 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: have you. Thanks so much for having me, Joe. What 318 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: are they actually trying to do here? Six bills? Are 319 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: they trying to keep these companies from getting bigger? Or 320 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: to better manage the way they conduct themselves? The way 321 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: they behave but I think they're trying to do both 322 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: of those things actually and more. You know, they're definitely 323 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: trying to keep the companies from getting bigger. One of 324 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: the bills would actually direct make it much more difficult 325 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: for these companies to engage in mergers and acquisitions, part 326 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: particularly if the seller company was a nascent competitor or 327 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: a startup company, you know. But they're also trying to 328 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: manage what the companies can do, regulate what how they 329 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: can conduct their business. So two of these bills, for instance, 330 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: would UM one would require interoperability and data portability UM 331 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: and another one would not allow the companies to if 332 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: they operate a platform, to compete on their own platform. 333 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: So if you look at those bills, it's not just 334 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: not allowing them to get bigger and regulating what they're doing, 335 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: but it's also an attempt to try to break them up. 336 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: That last one you mentioned that would make it almost 337 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: impossible for Apple to do what it's doing on the 338 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: App store right absolutely, Amazon, Apple, Google. I mean a 339 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: couple of these bills, what I think of its sort 340 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: of the more intrusive or drastic ones. There are three 341 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: of them, would really be business model and structural changes 342 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: for these companies. I mean it it would be a 343 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: very big impact, and I think for that reason alone, 344 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: I have a lot of doubts about at least the 345 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: most drastic of the six bills you engined actually being 346 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: able to maybe pass even through the House, and even 347 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: if they did get through Senate, because there would be 348 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: so many unintended consequences. I mean, it's so hard to 349 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: think through ultimately how it could all shake out and 350 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: what the effects of these kinds of bills could be 351 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: in the economy and for consumers, particularly for those aspects 352 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: of these companies, the consumers really like, you know, like 353 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: Amazon Prime or the fast delivery or you know, pre 354 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: installed apps on an Apple iPhone. How it would affect 355 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: those things. It's so unclear that I think it would 356 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: be very difficult to garner the bipartisanship you'd need in 357 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: the Senate to actually get these bills through, at least 358 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: as they're written today. These are big companies gen with 359 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: obviously enormous numbers of employees, and it brings me back 360 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: to the old Microsoft's antitrust case a hundred years ago. 361 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: I know Microsoft has had some very aggressive lobbyists in 362 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: town trying to essentially eliminate themselves from this pool of company. 363 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: Are they all putting up a big force of lobbyists? 364 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: How are the companies managing it? You know right now 365 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: they are. It seemed like it was a little bit 366 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: of a late, big lobbying effort. I don't know if 367 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: they were taken by surprise or if they were just 368 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: unprepared for the speed at which these bills were drafted 369 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: and went before the House committee, But there was a 370 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: lobbying effort, and I think you could see a little 371 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: bit if you watch the hearing and the markups on 372 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: these bills, that some of those lobbying efforts might have 373 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: um might have been beneficial, because you could hear some 374 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: of the lawmakers sounded like they were parroting points or 375 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: bullet points that they got from the lobbyists. And I 376 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: think Microsoft probably did too, because it did come up 377 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: in the hearing as to whether these bills would cover 378 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: Microsoft or not. And that's something that's unclear speaking of 379 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: Microsoft in that old case. Is there any chance and 380 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: will there be a concerted effort to break up any 381 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: of these companies? And I ask you that, knowing that 382 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: some investors actually would love to see that happen. Would 383 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: love a chance to invest in a WS inside Amazon 384 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: or some of the other potential standalone companies. You know, 385 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: really there is a multi pronged effort right now to 386 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: try to break some of these companies up. I mean, 387 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: as you've probably heard, the FTC s in in a 388 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: lawsuit against Facebook where they'd like to seek the divestiture 389 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: of Instagram and WhatsApp. Now you know, they just had 390 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: a loss in that lawsuit. There case was dismissed, but 391 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: it was dismissed without prejudice, which means the FTC can 392 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: come back and try to fix what was wrong with 393 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: the complaint and refile it. So in the courts they're 394 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: seeking a breakup. There are current lawsuits against Google also 395 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: seeking a breakup. There is a Texas state lawsuit that 396 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: relates to the ad tech stack and Google's control over 397 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: the advertising process between publishers and advertisers that I believe 398 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: is seeking the divestiture of double Click, which is a 399 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: company Google acquired what about ten years ago or so 400 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: I think. So in the lawsuits side, you have this 401 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: effort for a breakup. And then on the legislative side 402 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: as well, because these bills in the House, certain we 403 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: seek to break up these companies, and I think it's 404 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: possible we'll see something yet to come out of Senate 405 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: that might also do the same thing, that might look 406 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: like these House bills and are also seeking some sort 407 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: of a breakup. We're talking with Blueberg intelligence analyst Gen 408 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: r about these anti trust bills. I know Facebook yesterday 409 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: had a bit of a win a federal judge throughout 410 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: antitrust lawsuits against that company. Does that have any impact 411 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: on this legislation? You know, I really think it does, 412 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: because the reason that that case got dismissed was because 413 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: of some of the technicalities and difficult elements that you have, 414 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: some of the hurdles that you have to get through 415 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: in order to sustain an antitrust case. It's very difficult 416 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: to win monopolization cases in court today the way the 417 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: President has developed, and that's part of the reason that 418 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: you have legislators and politicians and anti trust scholars that 419 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: are advocating for some reform to the anti trust laws 420 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: because of these all of these technicalities that have built 421 00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: up that make it difficult. And it was one of 422 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: the technicalities that got the FCC's case thrown out so 423 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: really it just is a very good example as to 424 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: why we probably, you know, those who advocate that we 425 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: need new laws would say this shows you why. Fascinating 426 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 1: conversation with Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Jen Ry. You're always welcome here, Jen, 427 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: Please come back, Thanks for joining us, Welcome to Bloomberg 428 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: sound On. Thanks for spending part of your Tuesday with us. 429 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: New competition from China seems to be a big motivator 430 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: in a town where no one can agree on much. 431 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: Separate bills have passed the House and Senate with bipartisan 432 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: support to better meet the challenges from our biggest economic rival, 433 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: and we're joined coming up by a specialist on supply 434 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: chains and manufacturing in China. We'll be talking in a 435 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: moment with Dan Harris, founding member of the international law 436 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: firm Harris Bricken. The House and Senate are taking different 437 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: approaches on this. They both, however, acknowledge that China has 438 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: become a major rival when it comes to research and development. 439 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: We're talking about more than our computer chip shortage, although 440 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: that's a big part of this as well. Dance with 441 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: us now. As I mentioned from the firm, Harris Brick 442 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: and Dan welcome back to Bloomberg Radio, I have to 443 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: be back. The House and Centator taking different approaches on this, 444 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, but they are both trying to reach 445 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: the same point, and I suspect that their bills will 446 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: be reconciled at some point. As well as our computer 447 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: chip shortage that I mentioned, the big biggest example of 448 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: what they're trying to deal with. I don't know if 449 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: it's the biggest, it's probably the most important. I have 450 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: to admit when we start talking about semiconductors, Dan, I 451 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: won't this chip problem resolve itself, the global shortage before 452 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: we have a chance to build new foundries here in 453 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: the US. Well, I'm not sure it will resolve self 454 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: without new foundries. Explain Well. The problem is that a 455 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: lot of the chips coming out of China these days 456 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: are being prioritized for buyers from countries other than the 457 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: United States. And if we don't get our own chip factories, 458 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to get a sufficient number 459 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: of chips. And by our own chip factors, I don't 460 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: mean to say that we don't have any now, but 461 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: if we don't get more of them, we're not going 462 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: to have enough chips. Well, let's broaden things out here. 463 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: Beyond the chip shortage, we're dealing with China hoarding a 464 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: lot of supplies, and we're watching China invest heavily. We 465 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: even hear the President talk about that is as an 466 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: argument for our infrastructure investment. China is dumping money into 467 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: research and development. So how does the US catch up? Well, 468 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure the word catch up is the 469 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: right word here. A lot of people overestimate China's capabilities. Yes, uh, 470 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: they are very good at copying, but it is not 471 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: entirely clear that they're good at innovating. People seem to 472 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: forget that it was only a few years ago that 473 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: China actually developed the capability to make a ballpoint pen. 474 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: So it's China who needs to catch up with us. 475 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: That doesn't change anything, though, in that the United States 476 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: needs to spend to stay ahead of China. I'm glad 477 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: you framed it that way. Are we taking the right 478 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: approach legislatively? Then? I know there are, as I mentioned 479 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: a couple of different ways to achieve this in the 480 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: Senate bill talking about two and fifty billion dollars to 481 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: invest in research and development? Is that the kind of 482 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: money that we should be spending to compete with China. 483 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: Twenty years ago, I would have said heck no. Today 484 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: I'd say heck yes. And what has changed is the 485 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: scope and the money required to do the kind of 486 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: research that is needed to stay ahead of China. China 487 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: is spending roughly equivalent sorts of funds to try to 488 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: jump over us, and if we don't do the same, 489 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: we could fall behind. The difference between today and twenty 490 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: years ago is that we need government help because even 491 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: our largest companies cannot necessarily do it alone. You mentioned 492 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: stealing China stealing intellectual property. I assume you mean from 493 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: the US. Should we be investing in security to prevent that, 494 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: just as well as we are into our own research 495 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: and development. Yes, But more importantly, Americans need to understand 496 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: that it's happening, and it's happening um way more than 497 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: businesses like to admit. And I hate to say this, 498 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of Chinese spies in the 499 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: United States, um ensconced at various big companies in the 500 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: United States, And if you look at the case law, uh, 501 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence. Talk to me about the 502 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: supply chains here. Obviously, this has become an issue for 503 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: the United States and a lot of other countries in 504 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: the Western world. Whether we're talking about raw materials right 505 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: rare earth, and indeed products that are manufactured in China, 506 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: it takes a long time to build supply chains. Is 507 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: this a temper every problem? Again, as we're looking at 508 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: the way forward here, is this a temporary problem like 509 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: you might suggest the chip shortages, or is it time 510 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: for the US to start essentially building new roads for trade. 511 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: It is both a temporary and the long term problem. 512 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: It's temporary with respect to certain products. At the beginning 513 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: you mentioned China's hoarding products. Yes, they are hoarding products, 514 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: but also products are having trouble getting out of China 515 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: because of COVID outbreaks in various ports cities. So that 516 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: part is temporary. But something like the chip shortage, I 517 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: don't know whether to call it temporary or permanent, but 518 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: it's going to take years to remedy. And where my 519 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: firm really started seeing it, not surprisingly, was with personal 520 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: protective equipment. It was horrible at the beginning of COVID 521 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: because as China was basically the only country that had 522 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: sufficient quantities of PPE and they were brutally using that 523 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: fact to their own political advantage. Yeah, we all remember 524 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: when Robert Kraft got that airplane full of a million 525 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: I think it was masks to bring back to Massachusetts 526 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: and they had to go around the government to do it. 527 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: Is that because Dan we just gave up on making 528 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: certain things that we didn't think we're worth making. We 529 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: certainly gave up on making a lot of things. I 530 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: don't know whether it's because anyone consciously determined they weren't 531 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: worth making. I think it was that China consciously determined 532 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: that they were worth making, and American companies went to 533 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: China for those products because they could get them for less. 534 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: If these bills become law, and again it could take 535 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: some time, as I mentioned, and there are a couple 536 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: of separate bills in the House. There's one big one 537 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: or more comprehensive bill in the Senate that would need 538 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: to come together into a single piece of legislation. If 539 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: those bills become law, however, presumptuous, what would they mean 540 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: for American companies that are manufacturing products in China? Well, yeah, 541 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: I think for some American companies that would have no impact. 542 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: I think for others it would change the financial equation 543 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: and cause them to have more products made in the 544 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: United States or in alternative countries to China that are 545 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: actually our allies, countries like Mexico, Poland, Vietnam, which is 546 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,479 Speaker 1: a borderline ally, et cetera. How about in terms of 547 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: trade with China's neighbors, that's where things get a little 548 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: more complicated. Whether we're talking about Vietnam or certainly Taiwan, 549 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: they do get complicated, especially because Chinese companies own a 550 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: lot of the factories in places like Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Philippines, etcetera. 551 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: So buying a widget from Vietnam doesn't necessarily mean that 552 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: you've ended your relationship with China, Dan, does the president 553 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: signed these bills? If they get to his desk? Are 554 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: you asking whether he's sued or whether he will? I 555 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: think he should. I'm not enough of a political expert 556 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: to know whether he will or not. But if you 557 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: forced me to bet, I would say yes. It's gonna 558 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: be a long road before we get there. But glad 559 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 1: you can speak with us today, Dan Harris, founding member 560 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: of the international law firm Harris Bricken, thanks for being 561 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: with us today. On Bloomberg Radio, Joe Matthew and Washington. 562 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: And by the way, President Biden has made his way 563 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: back to town. Marine one just touchdown on the White 564 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: House lawn following the trip to Lacrosse. We started the 565 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: show with flew back on Air Force one, even though 566 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: we all know he prefers Amtrak, as Biden reminded the 567 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: crowd today in Lacrosse. And so I'm getting on the 568 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: train on that Friday, and these guys all became my family. 569 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: All the conductor, I'm a guy named Angelo Nuggery came up. 570 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: He goes Joey Baby, grabs my cheek like that, and 571 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: I thought they're gonna shoot him. I really did, said no, 572 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, no no. He's a friend who 573 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: was like, what the hell. I spent a lot of 574 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: time on Amtrak. We're glad to report they did not 575 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: shoot Angelo. Join us again tomorrow as we bring you 576 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: the stories and sounds that drive policy in Washington. There's 577 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: only one place for that, Bloomberg Radio, and this program 578 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: sound on. I'm Joe Matthew and this is Bloomberg