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Speaker 1: At lead to a screen logging as.

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Speaker 2: An apparent new discovery regarding the Shroud of Turrent reports

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Speaker 2: say there is new evidence the shroud is two thousand

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Speaker 2: years old, which coincides with Our Lord's life and crucifixion.

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Speaker 2: These reports originally surfaced in twenty twenty two, but what

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Speaker 2: appears to be new our studies concluded earlier this summer.

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Speaker 2: They were focused on bloodstains and scourge marks found on

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Speaker 2: the shround and allude to Christ's death by being nailed

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Speaker 2: to across, a common method of execution by the Romans

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Speaker 2: at the time.

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Speaker 1: And sympathy.

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Speaker 3: The tomb is open, He's alive.

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Speaker 4: That's not possible.

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Speaker 3: I saw him, Mary, Maybe it was someone else. Anythink

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Speaker 3: I'm mad? Peter, see the doom for yourself?

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Speaker 4: Now do you believe me?

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Speaker 5: Oh, ladies and gentlemen, Welcome a board to today's edition

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Speaker 5: of the Chronicles of the Christians. And in this chronicle

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Speaker 5: we delve into the sacred mystery that's puzzled and inspired

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Speaker 5: the faithful for centuries, the Shroud of Turin our tale today,

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Speaker 5: the Shroud of Christ speaks of a revelation that might

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Speaker 5: just bridge the chasm between faith and science through the

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Speaker 5: reticulous work of modern science, chemical analysis.

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Speaker 4: Has whispered to us truths long veiled by time.

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Speaker 5: This shroud, believed by many to be the very cloth

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Speaker 5: that wrapped our Lord after his crucifixion, has now been

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Speaker 5: authenticated to the time of Christ himself. So this may

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Speaker 5: not just be a fabric. It could be a testament

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Speaker 5: and a silent witness to the historic, physical life and

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Speaker 5: resurrection of Jesus. Imagine this very shroud, once perhaps displayed

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Speaker 5: in the majestic city of Constantine, influencing the hands of

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Speaker 5: medieval artists. Their brushes, guided by more than just inspiration,

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Speaker 5: might have painted the face of Christ from this very image.

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Speaker 5: Every stroke, every shade could have been a memory of

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Speaker 5: the Divine passed down through time the same way that

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Speaker 5: we know the medieval monks meticulously copied the Bible word

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Speaker 5: for word for hundreds and thousands of years. This is

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Speaker 5: why the medieval art matches the face that we see

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Speaker 5: on this shroud. The implications for our faith are profound.

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Speaker 5: Here lies potential proof not just of Christ's existence, but

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Speaker 5: of his passion, his suffering, his love for humanity, and

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Speaker 5: his resurrection. If this shroud is genuine, it's as if

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Speaker 5: We've been given a relic from the very moment of

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Speaker 5: our redemption, a physical connection to the divine sacrifice. So

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Speaker 5: for centuries skeptics have questions. But now with science as

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Speaker 5: an ally, we stand at the cusp of the new understanding.

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Speaker 5: This shroud could be the bridge where faith meets fact.

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Speaker 5: It challenges us to see beyond the skepticism, to touch

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Speaker 5: the hem of history, to feel the weight of the cross.

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Speaker 4: In our hands. This isn't merely about a cloth. It's

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Speaker 4: about the.

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Speaker 5: Heart of Christianity and Western civilization. The shroud, if truly

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Speaker 5: from the time of Christ, speaks to the very essence

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Speaker 5: of our belief, the incarnation, the Crucifixion, and yes, the resurrection.

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Speaker 5: It invites us to a deeper reverence, to witness the

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Speaker 5: tangible reality of God's love for us. And so in

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Speaker 5: this episode of the Chronicles of the Christians, let's ponder

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Speaker 5: this mystery with awe and wonder. For if this shroud

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Speaker 5: is what we belie leave it to be, that it's

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Speaker 5: not just a piece of history, It's a piece of

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Speaker 5: Heaven on earth, a silent sermon of the greatest love

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Speaker 5: story ever told and made this revelation guide us closer

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Speaker 5: to the truth, closer to Christ, and closer to the

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Speaker 5: peace that only He can bring. Join us as we

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Speaker 5: bring you to and tell you the story of the

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Speaker 5: Shroud of Christ.

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Speaker 4: Let's make them wonder.

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Speaker 1: Let's squeeze them for a change instead of them constantly

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Speaker 1: squeezing us. And then finally we rally around President Trump.

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Speaker 1: We surround him with support.

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Speaker 5: All right, Jack Pisobic, we're back the chronicles of the Christians,

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Speaker 5: and we're going through many of these Christian stories that

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Speaker 5: haven't been told. And you're not going to hear this

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Speaker 5: create content like the episode that you are watching or

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Speaker 5: listening to today. I wanted to invite Joshua lysec here

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Speaker 5: on the program you know in Joshua. He was the

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Speaker 5: co author of the books Unhumans and Bulletproof. But he's

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Speaker 5: here today to talk to us about the Shroud of Turin.

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Speaker 4: Joshua, how are.

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Speaker 3: You doing well? Thanks for having me back on Jack.

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Speaker 5: Of course, so I think people most people generally know

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Speaker 5: the Shroud of Turin. It's this report, it's the shroud.

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Speaker 5: It's in Turin, Italy. It is a full length body shroud.

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Speaker 5: Some people think that it's actually just the face or

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Speaker 5: the head, but it is actually, in fact a full

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Speaker 5: length shroud. And the idea is that many Orthodox Christians

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Speaker 5: and Orthodox Catholics believe it to be the actual burial

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Speaker 5: shroud of Christ, and therefore the image and the stains

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Speaker 5: essentially that are associated with this cloth are actually.

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Speaker 4: The image and stains of Christ himself.

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Speaker 5: And so we'll get into all of that because it

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Speaker 5: is a bit confusing when people ask serious questions, and

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Speaker 5: of course this has been met with a lot of

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Speaker 5: skepticism over the years. There was a carbon dating study

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Speaker 5: back in the eighties that really led a lot of

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Speaker 5: people to kind of put cold water on it, because

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Speaker 5: the carbon dating study came back and said, hey, we

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Speaker 5: think this thing is a forgery, it's not two thousand

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Speaker 5: years old. And yet there are new studies which were

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Speaker 5: completed this year that actually tell a different story. So

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Speaker 5: given that sense, and we'll talk a little bit more

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Speaker 5: about the history of it coming up, what are these

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Speaker 5: new studies that purport to actually supersede that old carbon

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Speaker 5: dating study.

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Speaker 6: Yes, that's right, So Jack, many of us grew up

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Speaker 6: hearing from secular sources like PBS, like History Channel all

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Speaker 6: of the background of the shroud, which is that it

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Speaker 6: does in fact have real bloodstained and there's analysis showing

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Speaker 6: like ferretine, for example, is inside of it. And so

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Speaker 6: the story was, well, it was a medieval forgery to

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Speaker 6: be used as an evangelism tool, tourism cash money making,

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Speaker 6: and was made to look real. And just look at

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Speaker 6: the carbon dating. So this is the story of documentaries

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Speaker 6: that we saw when many of us were in.

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Speaker 3: Our formative years.

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Speaker 6: And it turns out that the carbon dating of the

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Speaker 6: particular fabric seems to in fact be from a part

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Speaker 6: of it that was repaired, and so what's carbon dated

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Speaker 6: is in fact the repair.

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Speaker 3: Not the shroud itself.

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Speaker 6: The new evidence that's come out is through X rays

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Speaker 6: and through isotope testing and the X rays of the

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Speaker 6: natural aging of the fiber seems to reveal that it

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Speaker 6: is at least two thousand years old, and the isotope

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Speaker 6: testing seems to indicate that the fiber is from the

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Speaker 6: Western Levant, specifically from the modern day Israel and surrounding

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Speaker 6: areas well.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 6: And so this story of the shroud in public consciousness

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Speaker 6: needs to be updated because for approximately forty years it's

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Speaker 6: been incorrect.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that shroud is obviously a forgery. It's a fake.

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Speaker 6: Of course, people of faith won't explain it away. But

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Speaker 6: I'm smart because I'm a skeptic. This is a story

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Speaker 6: that the public has told themselves. And so now that

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Speaker 6: we know these revelations, Oh, shoot, it's two thousand years

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Speaker 6: old from Israel?

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Speaker 3: Does that mean it could be? It totally could couldn't it.

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Speaker 5: So let's go through this again. The earlier carbon dating,

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Speaker 5: as it turns out, was on a piece that was

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Speaker 5: actually repaired, and so it was a classical repair was

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Speaker 5: not done in modern times. But it turns out that

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Speaker 5: the part that was carbonated actually was from the repair.

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Speaker 5: In the same it would be like saying that, oh,

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Speaker 5: Notre Dame is only five minutes old because you tested

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Speaker 5: a piece of.

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Speaker 4: It that was just repaired, you know, this year.

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Speaker 5: Obviously, these these things, these relics, they do have repairs

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Speaker 5: over time because life happens. And we'll get into a

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Speaker 5: little story about why it is potentially that it required

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Speaker 5: repairs coming up in the program. But I want to

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Speaker 5: dig in some more on the actual cases.

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Speaker 4: Tell me.

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Speaker 5: So, there were two studies essentially, one was a material

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Speaker 5: chemical study and the other was an X ray study.

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Speaker 5: Walk me through those.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So the X ray it's called a wide angle

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Speaker 6: x ray scattering wa XS, and the goal is to

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Speaker 6: analyze the flax fibers. How much aging do they show,

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Speaker 6: So there's a baseline for how flax fibers that the

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Speaker 6: shroud is made of, how they age? Right, is this fresh?

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Speaker 6: Is this a few decades? Is it you one hundred

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Speaker 6: years old? Or is it possibly thousands of years old?

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Speaker 6: And so the testing is done here is far superior

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Speaker 6: to the testing that was done with the carbon business,

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Speaker 6: because the way carbon testing is done is carbon fourteen

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Speaker 6: is one of the more common types of testing, and

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Speaker 6: it's how long has the carbon in this material been

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Speaker 6: decaying for that's the evidence that it shows. So that's

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Speaker 6: when the thing died and was cut down. Now, this

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Speaker 6: is how a lot of people will say, WHOA, what

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Speaker 6: about carbon dating of fossils. Well, that's a little more

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Speaker 6: difficult because if there's not organic matter in it, you

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Speaker 6: can't exactly tell how old it is. And so there

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Speaker 6: have been a number of skeptics of the skeptics for

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Speaker 6: the age of various things.

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Speaker 3: And we could go, that's a fun little rabbit hole

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Speaker 3: to chase down. We don't have to do that right now.

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Speaker 6: But the way that this new technology has shown is

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Speaker 6: the shroud itself has to be approximately two thousand years

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Speaker 6: old given the signs of aging that have been demonstrated.

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Speaker 6: And so you might say that carbon fourteen stands are

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Speaker 6: down bad right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, they really are.

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Speaker 5: And so when it comes to this chemical analysis, what

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Speaker 5: were some of the chemicals that were used and some

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Speaker 5: of the Basically what they do, if I understand correctly,

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Speaker 5: was they were comparing it to other They had test

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Speaker 5: cloths basically that they knew precisely where they had come from,

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Speaker 5: and so they had European cloths they had classed from

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Speaker 5: the Mediterranean, they had classed from the Levant, and they

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Speaker 5: were doing a comparative analysis to determine which one it

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Speaker 5: lined up most directly with.

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Speaker 6: That's right, yes, And when this story first broke and

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Speaker 6: we had a conversation about this a few months ago, Jack,

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Speaker 6: it was pointed out that this shroud, and it's let's say,

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Speaker 6: its origin or provenance, he might say, is eerily similar

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Speaker 6: to those that have been found from Masada, which of

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Speaker 6: course is the Jewish revolt of fortress that fell to

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Speaker 6: the Romans. And there's incredible artifacts that are still around

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Speaker 6: to this day from the Siege of Masada, and that

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Speaker 6: of course is in Israel, and that's almost four decades

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Speaker 6: after the life on Earth of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 5: And by the way, Masada is and longtime viewers of

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Speaker 5: Human Events Daily will remember that we did an episode

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Speaker 5: at Masada, actually climbing it two years ago, and that

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Speaker 5: is practically right down the road, maybe thirty minutes drive

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Speaker 5: from the cave at Cumran where the Dead Sea scrolls

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Speaker 5: were found, right on the banks overlooking the Dead Sea.

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Speaker 5: And one of the reasons the Engetti Oasis, King David's

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Speaker 5: Oasis is also there. And one of the reasons that

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Speaker 5: you can get materials that were preserved so well there

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Speaker 5: is because along the banks of the Dead Sea. It

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Speaker 5: is so arid and so dry that when these materials,

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Speaker 5: the Dead Sea Scrolls for example, were preserved in sealed

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Speaker 5: clay jars and then sealed with wax, that those conditions

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Speaker 5: were perfect. It was a hermetic seal and there was

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Speaker 5: because of no humidity, there was no damage done whatsoever

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Speaker 5: to these documents. This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls

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Speaker 5: were so important, and so it makes an obvious use

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Speaker 5: case to say, hey, if we've got some material from

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Speaker 5: the same area, that is cloth or linen, and it

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Speaker 5: was the Essenes were the group that had that had

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Speaker 5: stayed at the Dead Sea Scrolls area, So why not

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Speaker 5: take some of the cloth from that same area just

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Speaker 5: down the road at Masada and say, let's test that.

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Speaker 5: Because we know for sure that this was part of

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Speaker 5: the Jewish revolt which happened, and it's dated pretty close

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Speaker 5: mostly to about seventy a d. So we're talking just

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Speaker 5: a couple of decades after Christ's death and rebirth and

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Speaker 5: resurrection in thirty three give or take AD thirty three

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Speaker 5: or forty depending on your depending on your source. I'm

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Speaker 5: not going to get into that right now, but the

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Speaker 5: idea being was this was a major battle. We are

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Speaker 5: able through Roman sources and Jewish sources and all sorts

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Speaker 5: of contemporary sources to really pinpoint down when Masada took place.

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Speaker 5: And that's the piece of cloth that the Shroud of

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Speaker 5: Turin was most closely dated to two thousand years old,

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Speaker 5: not just a couple of one hundred years old, meaning

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Speaker 5: they didn't have the technology back then to create a

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Speaker 5: forgery this sophisticated get into Warren to that next with

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Speaker 5: Joshua bis all Right, Jack Pisobic, Human Events Daily, The

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Speaker 5: Chronicles of the Christians, the Shroud of christ This is

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Speaker 5: our episode with Joshua Lysac providing an update on the

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Speaker 5: possible authentication of the Shroud of Turin. Major news that

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Speaker 5: took place this year. Possibly with all the political and

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Speaker 5: geopolitical news that's going on, this may actually have implications

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Speaker 5: that are far beyond any other story or any other

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Speaker 5: event that took place in twenty twenty four. And so

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Speaker 5: that's why we thought that it was so important to

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Speaker 5: actually tell this story and do an entire episode on

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Speaker 5: the Shroud of Turin. So quick backstory for anyone who

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Speaker 5: really doesn't know where it came from or how it

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Speaker 5: ended up in Italy. So wait, obviously people know that

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Speaker 5: the biblical narrative, of course in the Gospels, that this

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Speaker 5: all took place in Jerusalem. So what's this shroud doing

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Speaker 5: in Italy? Well during the Crusades, and we did the

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Speaker 5: episode on the Crusades with Blake Neff as the Muslims.

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Speaker 5: As the Caliphate were sacking the Holy Land, many of

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Speaker 5: the Crusaders realized that so many of these holy relics

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Speaker 5: and so many of the issues that were going on

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Speaker 5: at the time were potentially going to be lost or

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Speaker 5: destroyed in these great battles, that they took it upon

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Speaker 5: themselves to preserve them and then actually bring the relics

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Speaker 5: to Europe for safe keeping. And so the earliest documented

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Speaker 5: appearance of the shroud isn't actually in France and in

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Speaker 5: the possession of Jeffrey de Charnay, who was a French

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Speaker 5: knight who had been and his family had been associated.

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Speaker 4: With the Crusades.

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Speaker 5: And in fact, going back even further, there are references

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Speaker 5: through the Crusades during one of the battles of Constantinople

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Speaker 5: and a French night in two hundred years prior to this.

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Speaker 5: This is really interesting. Two hundred years prior to this

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Speaker 5: had written that when he was in Constantinople, he saw

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Speaker 5: a cloth that was hanging up on full display within

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Speaker 5: a major church in Constantinople. This is again the heart

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Speaker 5: of Byzantium. And we talked in the Crusades episode about

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Speaker 5: how the Crusades actually were a call from the Orthodox

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Speaker 5: Church to the Western Church, to the Roman Church saying,

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Speaker 5: come and save us from these barbarians. They're flooding throughout

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Speaker 5: our lands. They're flooding throughout the Holy Land, and we

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Speaker 5: need help. And so it was the Western Church coming

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Speaker 5: to the aid of the Eastern Church, not some you know,

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Speaker 5: colonialism narrative.

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Speaker 4: Which is of course taught today.

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Speaker 5: So it really was a major effort and kept them

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Speaker 5: at bay up until about fourteen hundreds. So this French knight,

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Speaker 5: whose Robert de Clarie is writing that when he was

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Speaker 5: in Constantinople, he saw a cloth that bore the face

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Speaker 5: of Jesus, and he referred to it as the image

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Speaker 5: of Odessa, also known as the Mandylion, which was brought

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Speaker 5: from Edessa, which is in Ancora now southern Turkey, sort

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Speaker 5: of on the border with what is today Syria, and

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Speaker 5: all the way back in nine forty four AD, so

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Speaker 5: even prior to even prior to the First Crusade, about

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Speaker 5: a thousand years before the First Crusade, and basically the

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Speaker 5: idea being that this image, this cloth which for the

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Speaker 5: face of Christ, was in fact the shroud of Turin

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Speaker 5: that we know today, and that these could have been

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Speaker 5: the same cloth. That it makes its way to Constantinople,

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Speaker 5: which is the heart of Byzantium, the heart of the

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Speaker 5: Eastern Empire, and then as the Eastern Empire falls, the

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Speaker 5: Crusader knights bring it back to Europe France and then

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Speaker 5: later Italy for safekeeping. And so the theory is that

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Speaker 5: it was used during Easter rituals where it would have

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Speaker 5: been displayed in the way that Christ would have been during.

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Speaker 4: During the.

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Speaker 5: Actual passion, during the actual Holy Week itself.

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Speaker 4: And this is.

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Speaker 5: Actually interesting that recent research has found microparticles of gold

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Speaker 5: on the shroud which actually matched the composition of gold

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Speaker 5: that was used in Byzantium coinage during certain periods, and

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Speaker 5: this suggests that the shroud may have been kept in

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Speaker 5: Constantinople during those times, potentially displayed or kept with other

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Speaker 5: relics in a setting that included gold. And one of

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Speaker 5: the interesting pieces of this story by the way, So Joshua,

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Speaker 5: there we gets the warfare, the fact that the shroud

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Speaker 5: has been protected and preserved throughout the years. But again,

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Speaker 5: the gold coinage that was found also matches the gold

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Speaker 5: coinage of Byzantium, which has always been the sort of

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Speaker 5: oral history of the shroud, that it made its way

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Speaker 5: through Byzantium to Constantinople and then made its way to Europe.

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Speaker 5: So again, when they've conducted scientific analysis of the various

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Speaker 5: you know, it's sort of like a Christian CSI if

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Speaker 5: you will, that it all matches up with the story

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Speaker 5: that's always been told. And a key point that I

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Speaker 5: want to make here and I'll ask you in ninety

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Speaker 5: four a d did the Byzantines have the ability to

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Speaker 5: fake this type of chemical analysis, to fake this type

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Speaker 5: of gold? Obviously, we know that alchemy was being tried

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Speaker 5: at this time quite quite proficiently, and people were attempting

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Speaker 5: to do this, but as far as they know, it

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Speaker 5: wasn't ever actually achieved.

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Speaker 4: So how would they have forged it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question.

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Speaker 6: We don't have reason to believe it was possible to

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Speaker 6: forge something like this back then, especially to make it

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Speaker 6: look to modern audiences like ours as if it was authentic.

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Speaker 6: So this is what is worth understanding about forgeries. The

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Speaker 6: idea of a forgery is to trick people in your

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Speaker 6: present moment, your present place, in your present time that

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Speaker 6: something is real, and it's often for money making purposes.

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Speaker 6: There's often a financial motivation for it too, to say.

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Speaker 5: And by the way, you saw this with a lot

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Speaker 5: of those those like missing link fossils and the skulls,

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Speaker 5: you know, and you know, someone say that this how

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Speaker 5: it happened in Europe or and in the UK a

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Speaker 5: lot this is the missing link of between ape and

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Speaker 5: and it would turn out to be just yeah, built

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Speaker 5: un man and it turned out to be like a

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Speaker 5: you know, someone took a chimpanzee skull and like someone's

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Speaker 5: jaw and fused them together.

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Speaker 6: Or maybe yeah, that man was just a I believe

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Speaker 6: it was the story it was a it was a

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Speaker 6: pig's tooth and then a reconstructed skull was put around

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Speaker 6: it to make it people believe.

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Speaker 3: But the point of that was to make money.

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Speaker 6: Had this exhibition charge for admission, and it's it's a

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Speaker 6: sort of a quick scam that you don't want to

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Speaker 6: get found out soon enough.

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Speaker 3: So the Shroud of Turin does.

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Speaker 6: Not show what we would anticipate to be a quick

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Speaker 6: scam to make some money off of people who don't

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Speaker 6: know any better.

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Speaker 3: It is sophisticated.

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Speaker 6: Now, what I find interesting about its story is the

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Speaker 6: a nuclear cup. Of number of studies on this, the

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Speaker 6: types of other let's say DNA evidence associated with it,

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Speaker 6: show that it has been touched by a lot of people,

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Speaker 6: and it has traces of pollen and other plants from

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Speaker 6: Western Europe all the way across the Mediterranean's South central Europe,

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Speaker 6: Eastern Europe and to the Middle East and back again.

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Speaker 6: And so the story of its adventure is in the

401
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Speaker 6: shroud itself. So what we have done is we have

402
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 6: debunked the debunking. I remember when The Passion of the

403
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 6: Christ was released with the Bell Gibson film in theaters

404
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 6: in two thousand and four, every public radio and public

405
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Speaker 6: television station was wanting to do some sort of a

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Speaker 6: public interest show around various Christian relics associated with the

407
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Speaker 6: Crucifixion and the resurrection, and of course there was this

408
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Speaker 6: great debunking of the Holy Sepulthorp. Well, it turns out

409
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Speaker 6: that beneath everything there is a slab with a cross

410
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 6: stamped into it which dates to approximately one hundred And

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00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 6: this is of course after people have said, well, obviously

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Speaker 6: this is knock the spot, this was built by.

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Speaker 3: Concert thing blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You

414
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Speaker 3: know the story. So the secularists are down bad.

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Speaker 6: We have the story of the Veil of Veronica, which

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Speaker 6: is of course the relic that was associated with the

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Speaker 6: woman of Veronica who wiped Jesus' face on his way

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Speaker 6: to be crucified. It seems as if the original one

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00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 6: was destroyed in a fire in the sixteenth century, but

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Speaker 6: reports from that time, writings from that time, is that

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00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 6: the depictions of Jesus' face, which go back many centuries,

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Speaker 6: match the appearance of the face on the Veil.

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Speaker 3: Of Veronica, which is interesting.

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Speaker 6: So we don't necessarily have all relics that remain, but

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Speaker 6: those that we do have access to, the debunking around

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00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 6: them is being debunked the more science is advancing, and

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Speaker 6: so this idea that these are sophisticated forgeries or even

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00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 6: simple forgeries, meant to make a quick bulk off of poor, illiterate,

429
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Speaker 6: devout religious believers who are silly and easily to see

430
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Speaker 6: because they want to be That's the story that new

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00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 6: atheism has put out there. Well, that is being eliminated.

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Speaker 6: It's no longer a reasonable belief system. And I almost

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Speaker 6: imagining the Bell curve meme that we've all seen, where

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Speaker 6: you have the simple soon and then you have the

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Speaker 6: enlightened one, and then there's there's the enlightened midwidth. So

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00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 6: the self enlightened, self important, egotistical midwit in the middle.

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Speaker 3: Well, it seems like that the ends of the Bell.

438
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 6: Curve are the shroud is real, and then we have

439
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 6: the enlightening in the middle. Who's who's running after all

440
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 6: of the reasons it could be fake?

441
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 5: And in our previous episode, our leadoff episode here for

442
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 5: Chronicles of the Christians, Blake neph and I depicted how

443
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 5: Christians and Christian monks and patrons of Christianity were spending

444
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 5: the equivalent of billions of dollars to meticulously copy down

445
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 5: the Bible word from word to build the great monasteries,

446
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 5: the cathedrals, and in fact, every indication was that this

447
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 5: wasn't done out of some cynical power grab, and people

448
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 5: lost and there was no money return, There's no investment

449
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 5: return on this, and then in fact people actually did

450
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,479
Speaker 5: believe it, and they spent untold sums of money in

451
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 5: order to invest in this, And so the same I suppose,

452
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 5: Rubric would then pretend to the idea that these relics that,

453
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 5: when found, were actually probably checked out very scrupulously by

454
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 5: the very same people who found them. They were just

455
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 5: going to take the word of some night who shows

456
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 5: up and says, hey, guys, look what I got. No,

457
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 5: in fact, that the church and the monks and the

458
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 5: priests and the folks who were there actually did take

459
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 5: very close care to determine whether or not these things

460
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 5: were authentic, the same way that Saint Helena when she

461
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 5: went to the Holy in the first time in three

462
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 5: hundred three twenty five AD, that she was actually talking

463
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 5: to people and conducting an investigation into where the sight

464
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 5: of the crucifixion was, as to where the stone of

465
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 5: gold at the wall, as to where the tomb of

466
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: Christ was. That so many of these things were actually

467
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 5: not done out of some wanton, cynical belief, but in

468
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 5: fact we're doing done out of devout and fervent belief

469
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 5: that they were true. Right, jackzoviec back here the chronicles

470
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 5: of the Christians the Shroud of Christ. Now, Joshua, let's

471
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 5: get into the actual image that was found on.

472
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 4: The shroud itself.

473
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 5: So we've talked about the shroud, the material, the gold,

474
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 5: the chemical analysis, the X ray analysis, but obviously the

475
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: most striking thing that people see is the image itself,

476
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 5: and that face. It went viral so widespread a couple

477
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 5: of months ago when the story started. Also there was then,

478
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 5: I believe, an ai recreation done of a potential using

479
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 5: the entire shroud to put together the face that people

480
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 5: could see from the shroud, and it just looks identical

481
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 5: to the Byzantine art that was done of Christ at

482
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 5: the time, showing that there has to be some kind

483
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 5: of link between these. And I think, in my mind

484
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 5: at least it lends a lot of credence to the theory

485
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 5: that the Shroud of Turin was in fact the cloth

486
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 5: that was shown on full display in Constantinople prior to

487
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 5: the Sack of Constantinople. And it goes back to those

488
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 5: Crusades and all the history there and the Western Church's

489
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 5: attempt to save the Eastern Church and did so for

490
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 5: hundreds of years, by the way, But how could an.

491
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 4: Image like this have been made?

492
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 5: Clearly, we don't see image you know, when I go

493
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 5: and rub my face, I don't see images like this.

494
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: And even when I have an injury, I don't create

495
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 5: images like this on any cloth. And I've never seen

496
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 5: any hospital show something like this. So why would a

497
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 5: cloth have an image like this on it?

498
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 6: Yes, So the very first hypothesis, aothpothesis I heard was

499
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 6: from skeptics who claimed that they could recreate something like

500
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 6: this where if you laid out, let's say, a face,

501
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 6: a body, whether living or dead, and you wrapped this

502
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 6: cloth around them tightly for long enough with the right oils,

503
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 6: you would have an imprint left over afterwards. And so

504
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 6: the hypothesis was that the whole backstory going back to

505
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 6: the Crusades was completely made up and it was performed

506
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 6: this forgery in the fifteenth century for tourist attraction and

507
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 6: making money off of people.

508
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: That's the cynical hypothesis.

509
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 6: Of the skeptics that I first heard when I was

510
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 6: a kid, and the idea was that a real corpse

511
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 6: that had real.

512
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: Blood on it, hence the bloodstains was used to try

513
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: to recreate.

514
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 6: A crucifixion victim because that's what it does seem to

515
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 6: indicate that it shows the shroud. And so these were

516
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 6: skeptics who wanted to rip off believers and tell them

517
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 6: that this was the real thing. And so they went

518
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 6: through the rigmarole of taking a corpse and giving it

519
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 6: wound to look like it was a crucifixion victim, and

520
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 6: then laid it out after putting right oils on it,

521
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 6: leaving it out in the sun for a number of

522
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 6: days to try to imprint that facial appearance and the body.

523
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 6: And what we see is like the imprint of a

524
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 6: person in the shroud. That's hypothesis that I first heard

525
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 6: in order to debunk the faith position that this is

526
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 6: the real deal. In addition to the carbon dating, Well,

527
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 6: now that the carbon dating we know is not it

528
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 6: does not stand up compared to the X ray and

529
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 6: the isotope based analysis.

530
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 3: Well, what about this imprint idea.

531
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 6: Well, that then goes to show, Okay, it was then

532
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 6: forged by sophisticated people two thousand years ago. Why there

533
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 6: wasn't a motivation or a means to make money off

534
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:35,959
Speaker 6: of believers pilgrims, Because there really wasn't pilgrimage yet two

535
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 6: thousand years ago.

536
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 3: The way that we think about it. At that time,

537
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: the early Church was plural.

538
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 6: It was churches in various places that the apostles themselves

539
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 6: had planted.

540
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 3: There are Christian let's say, art symbols.

541
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 6: Like the fish, right, we have the cross, we have

542
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 6: the name of Christ, that goes back to the very

543
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 6: end of the first century depictions.

544
00:34:59,400 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: Of that time.

545
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 6: But these are a new faith, a new religion, small

546
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 6: groups of people, not a sophisticated operation to make money

547
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 6: off of them. The New Testament had not yet been

548
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 6: entirely compiled yet, so the hypothesis of we're gonna scan

549
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 6: people and make a quick block off of a forgery

550
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 6: completely breaks down when you realize that it's two thousand

551
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 6: years old. Okay, then how did the face and the

552
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 6: body and the shape of this crucifixion victim get there?

553
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: Then?

554
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 6: The hypothesis is that it was a flash of light

555
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 6: that effectively burned this image into the fabric, the idea

556
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 6: being that the moment a corpse became a living person again,

557
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 6: at the moment of the resurrection, there was an immense

558
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 6: flash of light that burned the reversal of death itself

559
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 6: into the shroud which is a powerful story, and skeptics

560
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 6: will of course start protesting and screaming and coping.

561
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 5: Well, then let's and let's go into that. Let's just

562
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 5: go into that so a little bit more so. The

563
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 5: idea being that people have conducted scientists have conducted experiments

564
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 5: with linen and attempted to create images on the linen,

565
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 5: and there have been instances where they've been able to

566
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 5: do so, but they've only been able to do so

567
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 5: with intense bursts of radiation using essentially something I can

568
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 5: to ultra violet light. And this is extremely advanced technology,

569
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 5: nothing that would have been available to anyone in the

570
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 5: Middle Ages through any you know, through any secular process,

571
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 5: shall we say, And in doing so, the problem is

572
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 5: that it creates an intense amount of heat at the

573
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 5: same time, so they're able to create the image, but

574
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 5: the linen itself is usually burned and perhaps.

575
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 4: Destroyed in the process.

576
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 5: And so the the idea that essentially what's on the

577
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 5: image is sort of like a photographic negative that when

578
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 5: you see an intense burst of light, we all remember,

579
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 5: or I suppose the zoomers in the audience might have

580
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 5: to learn about this in history books about what a

581
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 5: photo neegative is and how.

582
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 4: That process works.

583
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 5: So it is created through the use of flash photography

584
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 5: and an intense burst of light. The only problem being

585
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 5: then if you had that amount of light with the radiation,

586
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 5: in order for the linen itself to survive, it would

587
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 5: require an intense burst of light emanating from the inside

588
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 5: of the linen, so emanating from whatever was enclosed within

589
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 5: this linen in all directions, so three dimensional in all

590
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 5: directions at the same time, but without heat, So intense

591
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 5: light without heat, and scientifically we know that that is

592
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 5: is really the only answer to what could have created

593
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 5: this linen. The only problem is we don't have the

594
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 5: technology to do something like that now and certainly at

595
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 5: no point in the medieval period or even in the

596
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 5: Renaissance period did anyone have this level of technology. And

597
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 5: as we say, the linen itself has been dated back,

598
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 5: and in fact the stains have been dated back to

599
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 5: two thousand years. The question is would it have had

600
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 5: to have been some process that is other than natural?

601
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: Yes, So this is why I find interesting.

602
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 6: The same time, the ai Jesus comparing the Shroudup of

603
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 6: Turin too the earliest paintings and drawings and illustrations of Jesus,

604
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 6: and it's like, why do they all look the same

605
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 6: from all over, both both western and Eastern.

606
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 3: The earliest depictions of Jesus all look the same. Why

607
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 3: is that?

608
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 6: Were they copying one another? What was the original image?

609
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 6: Well we may very well, we'll have it now. Around

610
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 6: the same time of the of the viral meaning of

611
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 6: the AI based Jesus, the shroud turned into an AI image.

612
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: Around the same time, there was another.

613
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 6: Little audio or visual rather that mean viral, which is

614
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 6: that apparently? And you can look this up yourselves, I

615
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 6: highly recommend it. At the moment of conception, when a

616
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 6: sperm meets an egg cell and life is created, there

617
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 6: is a zinc based reaction that emits a powerful flash

618
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 6: of light. So search moment of conception light and there's

619
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 6: an incredible burst of light. And I'm not the only

620
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 6: person to put those two together. These are both going

621
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 6: viral everywhere at the same time.

622
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: Is there now?

623
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 6: I could just be simply comparing the two. No relation

624
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 6: was whoever? But is it possible that a scientific analysis

625
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 6: of a resurrection of a corpse from being a dead

626
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 6: body to being a living one again emits an immense

627
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 6: flash of light because this is a biological process of

628
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 6: where to believe the story of Jesus.

629
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting, isn't it. The skeptics arguments.

630
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 6: Don't hold up because the technology required to do this,

631
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 6: as you've described, did not exist in the fifteenth century.

632
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 6: It did not exist in the twelfth or thirteenth century.

633
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 6: It certainly didn't exist two thousand years ago, and the

634
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 6: means and the motive for creating a forgery had not existed.

635
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 6: Yet we're going back to this the ancient times. The

636
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 6: people will say, well, they took a two thousand year

637
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 6: old piece of fabric in the fifteenth century, but that's

638
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 6: not how forgeries were done. They grabbed a pig's tooth

639
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 6: from a field in the early nineteen hundreds and said, look,

640
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 6: it's the real deal. Link, it's millions of years old.

641
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 6: That's not how it did not go to try to

642
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 6: find a fossilized pigs too, for example, because the goal

643
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 6: of a fortace people very quickly.

644
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 5: And so the bigger question for us is could this

645
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 5: forgery actually not be a forgery at all?

646
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 3: All?

647
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 4: Right?

648
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 5: Jack Pisobic, Joshua Leizek, we are back final segment of

649
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 5: the Shroud of Christ this installment of the Chronicles of

650
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 5: the Christians. We've told you the story connecting the Crusades

651
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 5: to the history of the Shroud. We've shown you how,

652
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 5: through chemical and even materials analysis, that the Shroud does

653
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 5: in fact stand up to scrutiny, and so Joshua. One

654
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 5: of the questions that a lot of skeptics always give

655
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 5: to believers is that, well, you know, if all of

656
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 5: this were true, you know, why didn't why didn't God

657
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 5: leave some proof? Why didn't Jesus leave some proof of

658
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 5: his resurrection? Why not leave some you know, source source,

659
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 5: you know, like the classic Reddit response, why didn't you

660
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 5: leave a source? And for so many, for so many years,

661
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 5: it's always been taken as an article of faith, and that, well,

662
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 5: we have faith in the Gospel, we have faith in

663
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 5: the Old Testament, which, by the way, prior to the

664
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 5: discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the nineteen forties,

665
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 5: there were people who said the Old Testament.

666
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 4: Was just a bunch of stories.

667
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 5: And then people found the Dead Sea Scrolls, which which

668
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 5: lined up exactly, and we talked about the the meticulous

669
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 5: copying of the Bible word for word down through the centuries. Well,

670
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 5: suddenly you've got a copy from all most day one,

671
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 5: you know, a sort of unedited version, and they went

672
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 5: back and they found it was a one to one.

673
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 4: It was.

674
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 5: It was one to one in terms of the Dead

675
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 5: Sea Scrolls to the current Bible, that in fact, the

676
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 5: work of those those monks and those monasteries over the

677
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 5: centuries was done with reverence and it was not edited

678
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 5: for political purposes or things like that. And certainly other

679
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 5: additions have been but we could we could talk about that.

680
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 5: That's some other time. And the point being is that

681
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 5: so many items from the Old Testament, the location of

682
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 5: Sodom and Gomorrah has actually been uncovered. So many things

683
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 5: have been uncovered that people are really going back and

684
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 5: questioning that, well, if all of this is true, and

685
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 5: wait a minute, the Shroud of Turin. Suddenly the idea is, well,

686
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 5: perhaps the evidence has been with us all along, and

687
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 5: perhaps the evidence was given to people with this copy

688
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 5: of the Shroud of Turin.

689
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 4: What are the implications of this.

690
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 6: The implication of this is that the days of projecting skepticism, doubt,

691
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 6: cynicism onto relics and rituals of faith, those days are

692
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 6: coming to an end. I remember how when people will

693
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 6: think about some of these most famous relics and places.

694
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 6: This idea is well, okay, well, obviously people would say

695
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 6: it's the real shroud, or it's the real veil, or

696
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 6: it's the real Cross of Christ, or the real spear

697
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 6: that piers Jesus' Society, or it's.

698
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 3: The real whatever.

699
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 6: If I was doing that, well, I would just be

700
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 6: doing that to make money off of people trying to

701
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 6: trick the believers, and I would just try to make

702
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 6: them right. It's that modern day money focused projection from

703
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 6: the Western skeptic. But when you understand, for example, that

704
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 6: in and this is my understanding, that in the Catholic tradition,

705
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 6: in order to confirm the process of confirming a miracle

706
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 6: having occurred is nothing like the evangelical negaturch experience, where

707
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 6: someone will report that they've had a miracle, there will

708
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 6: be no tests, and then they will go viral, and

709
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 6: then they will get in New York Times bestselling memoir book,

710
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 6: deal out of the experience and cash in on their claims.

711
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 6: But in the process of confirming a miracle has occurred

712
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 6: in the Catholic tradition, you must demonstrate you have not

713
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 6: received any kind of compensation.

714
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 3: For your story or for your claim.

715
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 6: There must be multiple religious and secular physicians associated with

716
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 6: your previous diagnosis, and there must be a diagnosis, there

717
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 6: must be a paper trail. So the process of confirming

718
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 6: a miracle has occurred is to remove all skepticism, to

719
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 6: remove all alternate explanations of it having occurred. That is

720
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 6: the same let's say, worldview or process that has been

721
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 6: applied to the protection of the Bible of these relics,

722
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 6: and it is a great undertaking. It has been very expensive,

723
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 6: as you and Blake have talked about, in order to

724
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 6: do these things, in order to hand copy the Bible

725
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 6: in order to maintain accuracy.

726
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 3: And skeptics will say, well there's an occasional typo. Yeah, okay,

727
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 3: Well what does that show? All good books have type

728
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 3: was in them? Right?

729
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 6: And so the meta narrative here that we're observing is

730
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 6: that we have reason to be skeptical about the skepticism

731
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 6: and that this doubt that we see surrounding Christian rituals

732
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 6: and stories and doctrines is based on cynicism and the

733
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 6: want not to believe it, a desire not to accept it.

734
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 6: And sometimes it's well, I had a bad experience with

735
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 6: this church. When I was a kid, I had an

736
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 6: abusive parent who was very devoutly religious. Therefore all religion

737
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 6: is bad, and I will be a new atheist and

738
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 6: I'll read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

739
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: Well.

740
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 6: Even Dowkins himself has pointed out that he considers himself

741
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 6: a cultural Christian because the stories of Christianity brought to

742
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 6: bring about Western civilization.

743
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: And if we lose that, we lose the West.

744
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 6: And that's why atheism is falling out of public favor

745
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 6: and it's a low status position now to put on

746
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 6: that you're an atheist. And we're seeing this great sea

747
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 6: change also with the election of Donald J. Trump and

748
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 6: him wishing Happy Birthday to the Blessed Virgin Mary, with

749
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 6: his posting of Saint Michael's the Archangel's Prayer on his

750
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 6: social media, and other activities that he's done, honoring the

751
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 6: Roman Catholic Church, honoring Christians in general of all denominations.

752
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 6: And so now faith is not this silly little thing

753
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 6: for silly people. But you're seeing the enlightened, the intelligent,

754
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 6: the educated finding meaning in this, finding meaning in Christianity

755
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 6: that had been lost, and realizing rejection of Christianity was

756
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 6: based on projection of doubters, skeptics, naysayers who had their

757
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 6: own ends and means for doing so.

758
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 5: And as it comes in, it's almost like and just

759
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 5: as we finish up here, it's almost And by the way,

760
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 5: we encourage skepticism, I certainly do. I'm skeptical of the

761
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 5: mainstream narrative. But the problem is you don't want to

762
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 5: make skepticism your religion either, and you don't want to

763
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 5: make it an article of faith. And so Joshua and

764
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 5: I know you said this earlier this year, but congratulations

765
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 5: to you on through the process of all of this

766
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 5: regaining your faith as well.

767
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 4: Where can people follow you?

768
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 6: I'm on x YouTube everywhere at Joshua lesec.

769
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 5: At joshuac Ladies and gentlemen, Shroud of Turin, Shroud of Christ.

770
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 5: This has been chronicles of the Christian Stay tuned because

771
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 5: we have so much more. Ladies and gentlemen. As always,

772
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 5: you have my permission.

773
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: Sure five