1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. I'm excited to announce 2 00:00:21,996 --> 00:00:24,916 Speaker 1: that this season I'm offering a bunch of perks from 3 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: my most loyal listeners, the ones who subscribe to pushkin 4 00:00:29,356 --> 00:00:32,876 Speaker 1: Plus for those who just can't get enough. We're giving 5 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: every episode to our subscribers one week early. Plus. We've 6 00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:42,676 Speaker 1: created many episodes released weekly, and I'm calling them tangents. 7 00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:48,316 Speaker 1: And of course you'll never hear any ads. Subscribe to 8 00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on the Revisionist History Show page in Apple 9 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:58,676 Speaker 1: Podcasts or at pushkint f M. Deep into the preparation 10 00:00:58,956 --> 00:01:03,076 Speaker 1: of Season seven of Revision's History, one bitterly cold day, 11 00:01:03,596 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 1: I sent my producers Leman Gesteu and Elewise Linton on 12 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:14,436 Speaker 1: special assignment. Fly to Detroit. Rent a car, go north 13 00:01:14,556 --> 00:01:17,476 Speaker 1: on I ninety four for a stretch, then turn right 14 00:01:17,556 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: off the freeway on the Fredmore Highway and drive all 15 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: the way to the banks of the Saint Clair River, 16 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 1: where they will come upon a factory. This is a 17 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:30,996 Speaker 1: dumb question. Is it like high security? 18 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 2: Oh? No, well it's not high security, but we did 19 00:01:34,556 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 2: have to really put on a lot of gear to 20 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 2: get in there for food safety reasons. 21 00:01:40,036 --> 00:01:45,836 Speaker 1: You're wearing like hard hats, reflective jackets. Were you wearing 22 00:01:45,876 --> 00:01:47,596 Speaker 1: like industrial footwear? 23 00:01:48,956 --> 00:01:51,076 Speaker 2: Not footwear? But we had to wear gloves, We around 24 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:55,036 Speaker 2: gloves caps for our hair. That didn't really work for 25 00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 2: either of us. 26 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:04,236 Speaker 1: I wanted to understand an experiment, one of the most 27 00:02:04,236 --> 00:02:08,236 Speaker 1: important experiments of our modern era, one that's been all 28 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:13,276 Speaker 1: but forgotten, and crucially for my own selfish purposes, I 29 00:02:13,356 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 1: wanted them to take a taste test. 30 00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:22,116 Speaker 3: So we had a couple of paper plates in front 31 00:02:22,116 --> 00:02:25,076 Speaker 3: of us and then a spoon, and then we would 32 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 3: spoon a little bit of it into our hands and 33 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 3: then taste it from there. I will say that I 34 00:02:30,676 --> 00:02:34,596 Speaker 3: took way too much. It was overwhelming, for sure. 35 00:02:35,436 --> 00:02:43,196 Speaker 2: Guess I'll put too little. Okay this one first? 36 00:02:44,676 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 4: Oh I was strong? 37 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah right. You weren't blinded, they just but you 38 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:53,756 Speaker 1: didn't know which was which. So you have two little 39 00:02:53,796 --> 00:02:59,116 Speaker 1: plates in front of you. Could they tell the difference? Yes, 40 00:02:59,956 --> 00:03:03,196 Speaker 1: the insiders at the factory know the difference. The rest 41 00:03:03,236 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 1: of us not so much. My name is Malcolm Blackwell. 42 00:03:08,676 --> 00:03:11,796 Speaker 1: You listen Think Too Revision's History, my podcast about things 43 00:03:11,876 --> 00:03:16,836 Speaker 1: overlooked and misunderstood. This is part two of our investigation 44 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: of magic wand experiments impossible experiments that could only be 45 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: done if we waived a magic wand. In this episode, 46 00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 1: you'll hear my magic wand by way of a journey 47 00:03:31,276 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 1: from the banks of the Saint Clair River to the 48 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 1: tallest mountains in Europe, on to India and then Ohio. 49 00:03:46,716 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: This episode is going to require a fair amount of digression. Patience, grasshopper. 50 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: We begin our story over a century ago, a time 51 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:00,476 Speaker 1: when you could go many places in the world and 52 00:04:00,556 --> 00:04:05,956 Speaker 1: find some portion of the local population severely disfigured. If 53 00:04:05,996 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 1: I'm walking around a remote village in the Swiss Alps 54 00:04:10,236 --> 00:04:14,716 Speaker 1: in eighteen hundred, what do I see? 55 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:17,236 Speaker 5: High up in the Swiss Alps in the mid eighteen hundreds, 56 00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 5: you probably probably about half the population would have a 57 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:23,236 Speaker 5: visible goiter. 58 00:04:23,796 --> 00:04:28,036 Speaker 1: I'm talking with Michael Zimmermann, University of Zurich about goiters, 59 00:04:28,516 --> 00:04:30,996 Speaker 1: a swelling on the neck right in front of the larynx. 60 00:04:31,676 --> 00:04:33,836 Speaker 1: Describe these goiters. How large could they be? 61 00:04:35,196 --> 00:04:37,076 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, in a child, it's about the size 62 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:40,996 Speaker 5: of maybe a lemon. But the older women, particularly the 63 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 5: ones who'd had repeated pregnancies, you know, and would have large, 64 00:04:45,316 --> 00:04:49,396 Speaker 5: multinadular goiters. They can be the size of a volleyball. 65 00:04:49,516 --> 00:04:53,036 Speaker 5: I mean they can volleyball, yeah, sure, they can compress 66 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 5: the trachea make it difficult to breathe or swallow. They 67 00:04:56,396 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 5: can really be massive. 68 00:04:58,556 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 1: Some portion of the population with goiters had a related 69 00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 1: condition what used to be called cretinism. 70 00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 5: So in children, for example, they don't grow normally, so 71 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:13,756 Speaker 5: they're very short, they have characteristic facial features, they have 72 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 5: very dry skin, very dry hair, They move very slowly, 73 00:05:19,716 --> 00:05:23,236 Speaker 5: their temperature regulation is very poor, they become cold very easily. 74 00:05:23,516 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 5: And then classically it's associated with cognitive impairment and also 75 00:05:28,476 --> 00:05:31,716 Speaker 5: def mutism. 76 00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: And it's not reversible, it's not. For the longest time, 77 00:05:35,276 --> 00:05:38,556 Speaker 1: no one knew the explanation for cretinism or for goiters. 78 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 1: It would be one thing if they appeared everywhere, then 79 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:44,476 Speaker 1: you could say this is just what human beings look like. 80 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:49,156 Speaker 1: But this wasn't everywhere. It was confined to very specific 81 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: regions of the world. 82 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:53,756 Speaker 5: I mean, it was famous back in the eighteen hundreds 83 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:56,676 Speaker 5: for British and American tourists to go up in the 84 00:05:56,676 --> 00:05:59,636 Speaker 5: Swiss Alps not only to see the beautiful alpine scenery, 85 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 5: but also to see goiter and cretinism. I mean Mark 86 00:06:04,236 --> 00:06:08,916 Speaker 5: twain very famous quote, I've seen the two things I 87 00:06:08,916 --> 00:06:12,116 Speaker 5: want to see in Switzerland, Mount blank and the guiter, 88 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:13,356 Speaker 5: and now I'm going home. 89 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: It wasn't until the nineteenth century that scientists started to 90 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:21,036 Speaker 1: figure out what might be the culprit iodine, or rather 91 00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 1: a lack of iodine in the diet. Iodine is a 92 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:30,316 Speaker 1: trace alment found largely in sea water. There's a lot 93 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 1: of iodine in seaweed and in the livers of fish 94 00:06:33,036 --> 00:06:36,036 Speaker 1: like cod. If you live in a coastal area, you'll 95 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 1: get iodine in your diet naturally because the wind and 96 00:06:38,916 --> 00:06:41,756 Speaker 1: rain blowing off the ocean will deposit iodine in the 97 00:06:41,796 --> 00:06:44,836 Speaker 1: soil and water. If a cown near the coast drinks 98 00:06:44,876 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: water with iodine in it, then that iodine gets into 99 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 1: your milk and meat. But go inland and iodine gets 100 00:06:51,756 --> 00:06:55,476 Speaker 1: harder to find in nature. Fresh water flushes iodine out 101 00:06:55,476 --> 00:06:57,876 Speaker 1: of the soil. Worst off are places that used to 102 00:06:57,956 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 1: be covered with glaciers, because when the glaciers were treated, 103 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:04,956 Speaker 1: they took topsoil and natural iodine with them. No iodine 104 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: in the soil, no iodine in plants, no iodine in plants, 105 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:12,236 Speaker 1: not enough iodone in the people eating those plants, and 106 00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 1: when people don't get enough iodone in their diets, their 107 00:07:15,676 --> 00:07:19,476 Speaker 1: thyroid glands have to work overtime to compensate, so the 108 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:26,396 Speaker 1: thyroid becomes huge, like an oversized heart. Think about the 109 00:07:26,436 --> 00:07:30,556 Speaker 1: Swiss Alps, an inland mountain chain with lots of glaciers, 110 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:33,716 Speaker 1: no idon in the soil, and so people living there 111 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:38,436 Speaker 1: have historically been afflicted with goiter. Norway also had a 112 00:07:38,556 --> 00:07:42,676 Speaker 1: huge goiter problem, so did mountainous parts of China, Russia, 113 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 1: and goiter was a problem in the United States, of course, 114 00:07:46,276 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 1: because there are plenty of inland areas in America once 115 00:07:49,556 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 1: home to glaciers. There's a book published in the nineteen 116 00:07:59,796 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: twenties called Defects Found in Drafted Men, which is simply 117 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: a compendium of the physicals conducted by the US Army 118 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 1: on draftees during the First World War. So basically we're 119 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: looking at the entire reasonably healthy male population. Young male 120 00:08:15,796 --> 00:08:20,036 Speaker 1: population of the United States gets examined by a doctor 121 00:08:20,396 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 1: and their health condition is noted in this book. Correct, 122 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:25,356 Speaker 1: it must be a massive book. 123 00:08:25,556 --> 00:08:26,396 Speaker 6: It's a big, thick book. 124 00:08:26,436 --> 00:08:30,036 Speaker 1: Yet that's the economist Jim Firer who published a study 125 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:30,916 Speaker 1: based on that data. 126 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:35,436 Speaker 6: This is pre computerized shaded map showing where some diseases 127 00:08:35,476 --> 00:08:37,796 Speaker 6: were common and where some weren't. And this led to 128 00:08:37,836 --> 00:08:39,916 Speaker 6: the discovery of what's known as the Goiter Belt, which 129 00:08:39,956 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 6: is the place where goiter was endemic, which is the 130 00:08:42,236 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 6: upper Midwest. 131 00:08:43,636 --> 00:08:46,556 Speaker 1: The Goiter Belt. Just to give you a sense of 132 00:08:46,556 --> 00:08:50,436 Speaker 1: the problem, in Houghton County, which is Michigan's upper Peninsula, 133 00:08:50,876 --> 00:08:53,236 Speaker 1: five hundred and thirty eight young men were brought before 134 00:08:53,236 --> 00:08:57,356 Speaker 1: the draft board. A third of those draftees showed quote 135 00:08:57,556 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 1: a demonstrable enlargement of the thyroid. In some cases, the 136 00:09:02,196 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 1: goiters were so large that men were turned away from 137 00:09:05,116 --> 00:09:07,556 Speaker 1: the army because they couldn't button up the collars of 138 00:09:07,596 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 1: their uniforms. Fire Or estimates the lack of iodine in 139 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: places like Houghton County caused significant cognitive impairment as much 140 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:20,276 Speaker 1: as a standard deviation in IQ, which is a lot. 141 00:09:20,956 --> 00:09:24,196 Speaker 1: A standard deviation can be the difference between being able 142 00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 1: to handle college and not being able to handle college. 143 00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:30,436 Speaker 1: So what's so weird about this? There is literally a 144 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 1: part of the country where people are not as smart 145 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:34,956 Speaker 1: in aggregate as other parts. 146 00:09:36,396 --> 00:09:38,956 Speaker 6: Certainly they are not as smart as they could have 147 00:09:38,996 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 6: been in the absence of being idine efficient. Yes, I 148 00:09:41,556 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 6: think that's right. 149 00:09:42,956 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 1: So you have people in various parts of the world 150 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:49,236 Speaker 1: who don't get enough iodine. What do you do about it? 151 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: Michael Zimmerman says some of the earliest attempts to fix 152 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:54,676 Speaker 1: the problem were a disaster. 153 00:09:55,436 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 5: The dose of iodine that they were applying in these 154 00:09:59,036 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 5: initial studies was extremely high, you know, a thousandfold higher 155 00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 5: than what was needed to eliminate goiter, and iodine, like 156 00:10:06,796 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 5: any nutrient, is poison in a high doses. So a 157 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 5: lot of people developed hyperthyroidism and actually cardiac arrhythmias and 158 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 5: died from excess iodine ingestion. So it was seen kind 159 00:10:21,836 --> 00:10:24,556 Speaker 5: of as a double edged sword, and people saw it 160 00:10:24,596 --> 00:10:27,076 Speaker 5: as a poison as well as a potential remedy. 161 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: There was an iodine backlash and a lot of confusion, 162 00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:34,156 Speaker 1: like was iodine a treatment for goiter the way aspirin 163 00:10:34,316 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 1: is a treatment for headache, something you gave once and 164 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:39,556 Speaker 1: it solved the problem, or was it a supplement? Was 165 00:10:39,636 --> 00:10:42,996 Speaker 1: iodine something that people with goiter needed on a continuous basis, 166 00:10:43,476 --> 00:10:45,596 Speaker 1: And if so, how much iodine would you need to 167 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:48,836 Speaker 1: give to people, how often, starting at what age? And 168 00:10:49,076 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 1: how would you give it to them? Did it matter? 169 00:10:51,996 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 1: What the world needed was a proper experiment, careful, rigorous, controlled? 170 00:10:58,276 --> 00:11:07,716 Speaker 1: And where did salvation finally come from? Akron, Ohio? Surely, 171 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 1: at least if you were as an old as I am, 172 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 1: you remember the classic nineteen eighty three hit from Chrissy 173 00:11:13,556 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 1: Hind and the Pretenders, My city was gone. 174 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:23,316 Speaker 4: To Oh, my city was gone. 175 00:11:24,516 --> 00:11:29,236 Speaker 1: What city is she talking about? Not Cleveland, not swinky Columbus, 176 00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:34,596 Speaker 1: not stuffy, well fed Cincinnati, Akron because Chrissy hin grew 177 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:39,396 Speaker 1: up in Akron, so down and disappeared. South Howard is 178 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:42,316 Speaker 1: the historic center of old Akron. It got gutted in 179 00:11:42,316 --> 00:11:47,756 Speaker 1: the seventies for an empty urban plaza. 180 00:11:49,036 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 7: Reduced to. 181 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:01,876 Speaker 1: How many cities get dissed at such a high level 182 00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:07,036 Speaker 1: by one of their favorite daughters. My friends were finally 183 00:12:07,076 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 1: getting close to revealing my magic wand, very close, and 184 00:12:11,156 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 1: let me make one more promise. My magic wand will 185 00:12:14,956 --> 00:12:30,556 Speaker 1: give Akron a shot at redemption. Before we go any further, 186 00:12:30,996 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 1: a few words about my magic wand experiment. In the 187 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 1: last episode, I gave several scientists a chance to waive 188 00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 1: a magic wand to create any experiment they wanted, without 189 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 1: regard for the laws of nature or ethics. And then 190 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:49,076 Speaker 1: I pounded my chest and said that my magic wand 191 00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:53,796 Speaker 1: would be the best of all. Why did I say that, Well, 192 00:12:54,316 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 1: I'll tell you because all of the other magic wanders 193 00:12:57,236 --> 00:13:00,316 Speaker 1: I spoke to were trying to solve big, weighty questions, 194 00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:06,956 Speaker 1: existential questions, global questions. Me I'm being super practical. Mine 195 00:13:07,556 --> 00:13:10,676 Speaker 1: is news you can use. Is a subtle tweak on 196 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: an experiment that already happened, an experiment conducted early in 197 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:21,156 Speaker 1: the twentieth century by a brilliant young physician named David Marine. 198 00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 1: David Marine was born in Maryland and studied at Johns 199 00:13:27,276 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 1: Hopkins School of Medicine. Then he went to do his 200 00:13:30,396 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 1: residency at Lakeside Hospital in Cleveland in nineteen oh five. 201 00:13:35,796 --> 00:13:40,316 Speaker 1: Cleveland on the banks of Lake Erie freshwater. Lake Erie 202 00:13:40,636 --> 00:13:42,996 Speaker 1: one of the Great lakes created by the Laurentide ice 203 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:47,356 Speaker 1: Sheet twenty thousand years ago. Cleveland built on a landscape 204 00:13:47,396 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: shaped by glaciers which stripped away the iodine as they 205 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:54,076 Speaker 1: retreated Goiter Country. 206 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 5: According to the legend, he was walking to his first 207 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:01,116 Speaker 5: day of work and noticed that many of the women 208 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 5: in the neighborhood and all of the dogs had a 209 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 5: big goiter. 210 00:14:05,516 --> 00:14:06,476 Speaker 1: That's Michael Zimmerman. 211 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 5: Again. 212 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 1: He studied David Marine's career. 213 00:14:09,596 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 5: So when he was you know, he went to work 214 00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 5: and he was asked like, what would you like to 215 00:14:14,236 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 5: work on in terms of your research focus here? He said, well, 216 00:14:17,196 --> 00:14:19,356 Speaker 5: maybe I should work on the thyroid because it seems 217 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:20,956 Speaker 5: like there's a lot of thyroid disease around. 218 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 1: In nineteen oh nine, Marine gets called in by a 219 00:14:24,836 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 1: local trout hatchery that's convinced their fish are suffering from 220 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: a strange outbreak of cancer. All of the farmed fish 221 00:14:32,516 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: have a big bulge right near their thyroid. Marine tells 222 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:39,596 Speaker 1: them that's not cancer. Your problem is you're feeding your 223 00:14:39,596 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 1: fish chopped up pigs hearts and livers, and the pigs 224 00:14:43,196 --> 00:14:46,396 Speaker 1: of Ohio, which eat the iodine de fishient feedstocks of 225 00:14:46,436 --> 00:14:50,676 Speaker 1: Ohio have no iodine in them. Marine tells them feed 226 00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:55,116 Speaker 1: the fish chopped up seafish. The hatcheries follow his advice 227 00:14:55,636 --> 00:15:03,716 Speaker 1: and the fish Goiters go away. In Ohio, David Marine 228 00:15:04,076 --> 00:15:08,916 Speaker 1: is doctor Gouter. He spends a decade gathering evidence in 229 00:15:08,916 --> 00:15:12,676 Speaker 1: the laboratory. Then in nineteen seventeen, Marine goes to the 230 00:15:12,716 --> 00:15:16,556 Speaker 1: Cleveland school board and says, I'd like to do an experiment. 231 00:15:17,276 --> 00:15:20,356 Speaker 1: Let me feed some iodine to your school children to 232 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:23,076 Speaker 1: see if I can get rid of goiter. And Cleveland 233 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 1: says no. Of course, they say no, I mean, can 234 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:30,116 Speaker 1: you imagine this scenario. Iodine is at this point still 235 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:34,636 Speaker 1: considered a poison. The Food and Drug Administration wanted manufacturers 236 00:15:34,636 --> 00:15:37,916 Speaker 1: of iodine to put a skull and crossbones on the package, 237 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 1: and Marine decides he only wants to dose girls with 238 00:15:41,676 --> 00:15:45,476 Speaker 1: iodine fifth grade enough, which surely must have seemed a 239 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:48,836 Speaker 1: little shady at the time. Imagine that your twelve year 240 00:15:48,836 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: old daughter comes home from school one day with a 241 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:54,756 Speaker 1: note from the teacher asking for your permission to let 242 00:15:54,836 --> 00:15:59,396 Speaker 1: little Janey take part in an experiment involving repeated doses 243 00:15:59,636 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 1: of something widely considered a poison. But no worries because 244 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:06,316 Speaker 1: it'll be done under the supervision of some guy from 245 00:16:06,356 --> 00:16:08,836 Speaker 1: out east who's done a lot of work with trout. 246 00:16:09,996 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 1: Let me just read to you from the instructions Marine 247 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 1: wrote out to teachers. Quote, a few of the pupils, 248 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 1: after two or three days may get what seems to 249 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: be a slight cold in the head with nasal discharge, 250 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:26,796 Speaker 1: and possibly more rarely, the appearance of pimples or a 251 00:16:26,836 --> 00:16:32,596 Speaker 1: slight rash on the body. It is nothing serious. End quote. 252 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:35,436 Speaker 1: So little Janney's going to come back home with a 253 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:38,956 Speaker 1: head cold and covered in pimples and a rash after 254 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 1: being fed generous doses of a mysterious liquid. I mean, 255 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 1: what would you say? You would say no thanks? Cleveland 256 00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:51,076 Speaker 1: says no thanks. But doctor Goiter has come too far 257 00:16:51,156 --> 00:16:54,316 Speaker 1: to give up, so he drives forty miles south to 258 00:16:54,476 --> 00:16:58,676 Speaker 1: Akron and proposes the same idea to the Akron School board. 259 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 1: An Akron doesn't say no. Akron says yes. And it 260 00:17:04,356 --> 00:17:08,036 Speaker 1: is in Akron that we get the first definitive proof 261 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:11,876 Speaker 1: that if you give iodine to people, go to vanishes. 262 00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:14,796 Speaker 1: How quickly did he see that improvement? 263 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:17,676 Speaker 5: You saw it in a matter of weeks? 264 00:17:18,196 --> 00:17:22,716 Speaker 1: Wow? So Akron is this weirdly open minded place in Cleveland? 265 00:17:22,796 --> 00:17:25,276 Speaker 1: Is this weirdly closed minded place when it comes to 266 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:27,916 Speaker 1: one of the most significant scientific findings of the twentieth century. 267 00:17:28,756 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 5: I think what happened is he went over to Akron 268 00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:34,476 Speaker 5: because the president of the Akron School District was also 269 00:17:34,516 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 5: an alum of Johns Hopkins and said, what do you 270 00:17:40,396 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 5: think shall we do this together? And the guy said, yeao, 271 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:43,676 Speaker 5: I trust you. 272 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:49,956 Speaker 1: The Akron iodine experiment changes the world. It's up there 273 00:17:49,996 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 1: on the list of greatest public health breakthroughs in history. 274 00:17:54,996 --> 00:17:57,596 Speaker 1: But that was more than a century ago when I 275 00:17:57,636 --> 00:18:00,396 Speaker 1: said I'd give Akron another shot at redemption. I was 276 00:18:00,436 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 1: talking about now. This whole thing started one day when 277 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 1: I was salting my pasta water. A light bulb went 278 00:18:07,756 --> 00:18:12,396 Speaker 1: off inside my head and I realized I too have 279 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:19,996 Speaker 1: a magic wand first thing I did with my magic 280 00:18:20,036 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: wand idea I call up Sema Sigayer, who runs a 281 00:18:23,516 --> 00:18:27,876 Speaker 1: data analytics nonprofit called Cerco Ventures, lots of very smart 282 00:18:27,876 --> 00:18:30,956 Speaker 1: people using data to solve public health problems. 283 00:18:31,756 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 8: What do we not know about vaccine hesitancy? I think 284 00:18:35,996 --> 00:18:40,876 Speaker 8: one interesting thing that we do not know is whether 285 00:18:41,196 --> 00:18:44,636 Speaker 8: an injection actually matters. So I looked at a number 286 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 8: of studies, and none of them actually explored whether the 287 00:18:48,396 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 8: form of the vaccine matters. 288 00:18:51,716 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: What she means by form is that there are plenty 289 00:18:54,636 --> 00:18:58,116 Speaker 1: of ways to deliver a vaccine. One is by needle 290 00:18:58,196 --> 00:19:00,636 Speaker 1: in a doctor's office, but you can give yourself a 291 00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:03,716 Speaker 1: flu shot through an inhaler, and the same thing is 292 00:19:03,716 --> 00:19:07,156 Speaker 1: being developed for a COVID vaccine. If we'd had the 293 00:19:07,276 --> 00:19:10,396 Speaker 1: choice from day one of the pende to go needle 294 00:19:10,596 --> 00:19:14,116 Speaker 1: or inhaler, which would have made the most sense. We 295 00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: don't know. Does the person who doesn't want to get 296 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:21,356 Speaker 1: vaccinated object to the concept of the vaccination or just 297 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: the form. Segaire said that her firm once did research 298 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:27,716 Speaker 1: in India looking at why people were skeptical about certain 299 00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:28,996 Speaker 1: kinds of medical treatments. 300 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 8: And so while this is in India, and I'm not 301 00:19:31,516 --> 00:19:33,116 Speaker 8: suggesting that this may be true in the US, but 302 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:36,396 Speaker 8: it's some really interesting results in that in India, for example, 303 00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:38,956 Speaker 8: anything in the form of a powder is least value 304 00:19:38,956 --> 00:19:43,396 Speaker 8: from a medicinal perspective, whereas a pill is of higher value, 305 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:47,196 Speaker 8: an injection even higher value, and an ivy even higher value. 306 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 1: Are Westerners like Indians? Do we have an implied hierarchy 307 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:55,156 Speaker 1: when it comes to the form of medicine takes. We 308 00:19:55,236 --> 00:19:55,676 Speaker 1: don't know. 309 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:59,876 Speaker 8: So it could be that for some people of vaccine 310 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 8: in the form of an inhaler may not be as 311 00:20:02,916 --> 00:20:07,156 Speaker 8: as valuable or perhaps as robust as an injection. 312 00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: For example, it's perception like I don't want to use 313 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:13,596 Speaker 1: it because I can't imagine that inhaling a vaccine is 314 00:20:13,596 --> 00:20:17,476 Speaker 1: going to work. That's the thinking, and I can actually 315 00:20:17,476 --> 00:20:20,516 Speaker 1: sort of understand that that intuitively, there will be a 316 00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:24,036 Speaker 1: lot of people, particularly enthusiasts, who will be like, no, no, 317 00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:26,036 Speaker 1: give me the real I want a little bit of pain. 318 00:20:26,076 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 1: I want the real deal. Who knows where it's going 319 00:20:28,916 --> 00:20:29,836 Speaker 1: if I'm just sniffing it. 320 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:33,356 Speaker 8: I mean, I'll be very honest, that's how I feel personally, 321 00:20:33,436 --> 00:20:36,916 Speaker 8: despite being a scientist and knowing that Inhaler's work, I'll 322 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 8: be like, I'd rather get an injection because my mental 323 00:20:39,756 --> 00:20:42,996 Speaker 8: model of vaccinations are injections, right, That's how vaccines have 324 00:20:43,036 --> 00:20:46,156 Speaker 8: always been given. So this is what we know. We 325 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:49,156 Speaker 8: know that twenty four percent of Americans are fearful of needles. 326 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:57,356 Speaker 1: That's astonishingly high numbers. Emma, it is. Yeah, so are 327 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:01,156 Speaker 1: the hardcore vaccine skeptics, the people jumping up and down 328 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:04,676 Speaker 1: and saying COVID doesn't exist, really just scared of needles, 329 00:21:05,436 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 1: like really scared of needles and don't want to admit it. Maybe. 330 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 1: I mean, we see world class athletes giving up millions 331 00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 1: of dollars in income because they refuse to get vaccinated. 332 00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 1: How on earth would a macho, testosterone driven manly man 333 00:21:22,716 --> 00:21:25,476 Speaker 1: at the top of their sport admit that they just 334 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:29,236 Speaker 1: don't like the needle, even if they're given a lollipop afterwards, 335 00:21:29,676 --> 00:21:32,036 Speaker 1: and even if the doctor distracts them with a puppet 336 00:21:32,076 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: and says, look at the puppet. Is this what it's 337 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:38,916 Speaker 1: really all about? We don't know. We don't know anything. 338 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:42,436 Speaker 1: And when you're faced with this many, I don't knows 339 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:55,956 Speaker 1: what do you do? An experiment? That's what When David 340 00:21:55,996 --> 00:22:00,076 Speaker 1: Marine did his experiment on the schoolgirls of Akron, he 341 00:22:00,156 --> 00:22:04,316 Speaker 1: made them drink a little iodine suspended in solution. But 342 00:22:04,436 --> 00:22:07,756 Speaker 1: that obviously isn't practical if your goal is to give 343 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:12,316 Speaker 1: iodine to everyone in Acron on a continuous basis. Besides, 344 00:22:12,636 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: there were lots of idine skeptics around. Were they going 345 00:22:15,476 --> 00:22:19,036 Speaker 1: to drink iodine straight up, day in day out? Probably not. 346 00:22:19,796 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 1: He needed a better solution. Why does everyone settle on 347 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:26,356 Speaker 1: salt as the appropriate agent for delivering iodine to the population. 348 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:30,556 Speaker 5: Yeap, Well, salt is you know, in a way, it's 349 00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:34,396 Speaker 5: a very good food fortification vehicle, period. I mean, it's 350 00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 5: consumed by everybody in the population, Michael Zeruman. Again, it's 351 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 5: consumed in moderation. I mean, we eat too much salt, 352 00:22:42,996 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 5: but no one can eat like twenty or thirty grams 353 00:22:45,196 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 5: of salt in a day. Right. It's a good vehicle 354 00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 5: for idine because idine is such a trace essential element 355 00:22:54,036 --> 00:22:57,196 Speaker 5: where we just need micrograms per day. You can easily 356 00:22:57,276 --> 00:22:59,236 Speaker 5: add it into a few grams of salt, so it 357 00:22:59,356 --> 00:23:03,036 Speaker 5: just disappears in there. And it's very stable. So if 358 00:23:03,076 --> 00:23:07,796 Speaker 5: added to reasonable quality salt, it's stable as well. And 359 00:23:07,836 --> 00:23:10,276 Speaker 5: it's very cheap. Right, So most places salt is a 360 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:13,676 Speaker 5: very cheap commodity and even the poor can afford it. 361 00:23:14,556 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 1: Marine has a colleague, David Cowie, who starts writing letters 362 00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 1: to the big salt companies of the Midwest pitching the 363 00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:21,636 Speaker 1: iodine idea. 364 00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:25,516 Speaker 4: I'm desirous of getting in communication with the proper person 365 00:23:25,556 --> 00:23:27,636 Speaker 4: in your company, with whom to take up the question 366 00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:31,876 Speaker 4: of the iodization of all salt used as food in Michigan. 367 00:23:32,556 --> 00:23:35,836 Speaker 1: He writes to Morton Salt in Chicago, owned by mister Morton. 368 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:39,076 Speaker 1: He writes to Diamond Crystal Salt in Saint Clair, just 369 00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:40,356 Speaker 1: up the river from Detroit. 370 00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:43,996 Speaker 4: Before carrying our work any further, we are anxious to 371 00:23:44,076 --> 00:23:48,156 Speaker 4: counsel with the salt manufacturers and distributors in Michigan, Acquaint 372 00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 4: them with our plan, give them all the information we have, 373 00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 4: and get their ideas on the question, particularly as to 374 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:56,756 Speaker 4: whether there would be any objection from their viewpoint. 375 00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 1: It works, and soon enough every salt company in the 376 00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 1: country has agreed to add a dash of iodine to 377 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:07,556 Speaker 1: their salt. And that's why there's no goiter to speak 378 00:24:07,596 --> 00:24:10,716 Speaker 1: of in Cleveland or Akron or anywhere else in the 379 00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,756 Speaker 1: goater belt. Why the IQs of the people in the 380 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 1: upper Peninsula of Michigan are no longer a standard deviation 381 00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:20,076 Speaker 1: lower than everyone Else's why the salt you buy in 382 00:24:20,156 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: the supermarket today has a label on the bottom iodized salt. 383 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:29,276 Speaker 1: That's why I sent my producers Leonelois to Michigan on 384 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:32,756 Speaker 1: a cold winter's day, to the Saint Clair facility of 385 00:24:32,796 --> 00:24:36,316 Speaker 1: the Diamond Crystal Salt Company, the company that said yes 386 00:24:36,356 --> 00:24:40,996 Speaker 1: to David Cowie and David Marine a century ago. A big, rugged, ancient, 387 00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:47,556 Speaker 1: iconic factory, shimmering in white dust, salt salt everywhere, a 388 00:24:47,636 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 1: temple of salt. 389 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 3: So it looks Idad looks very similar to salts. 390 00:24:55,156 --> 00:24:58,716 Speaker 8: It looks almost identical to salt. 391 00:24:58,956 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 1: Leoneloiz saw the sacks of iodine waiting to be added 392 00:25:02,076 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 1: to mountains of salt. And then they went to a 393 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:09,996 Speaker 1: small conference room to answer the crucial question. Is salt 394 00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:13,396 Speaker 1: the kind of miraculous substance where you can sneak all 395 00:25:13,476 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 1: kinds of stuff into it and no one will be 396 00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: the wiser? Wait, so you where did the taste test 397 00:25:18,956 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 1: take place? You're in what what kind of room? 398 00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:24,396 Speaker 4: Just a general like meeting room. 399 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:24,876 Speaker 5: In the back. 400 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 2: We had lunch altogether. We had burgers and fries, and 401 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 2: then we did the taste test after. 402 00:25:31,676 --> 00:25:35,756 Speaker 1: That, and did the fries come salted or did you 403 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:37,116 Speaker 1: salt them? 404 00:25:37,516 --> 00:25:40,476 Speaker 4: It came catered, so neither. 405 00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 2: They didn't need salt. But there was salt on the table. 406 00:25:44,596 --> 00:25:47,036 Speaker 1: Of course there was. They were in the bosom of 407 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:50,516 Speaker 1: the Diamond Crystal Salt Company, one of the nation's premiere 408 00:25:50,556 --> 00:25:54,676 Speaker 1: salt making facilities. The entree is going to be perfectly salted, 409 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:04,236 Speaker 1: so the real taste test, Diamond Crystal flew in its 410 00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 1: top salt specialists for the occasion. Lee and Eloise were 411 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 1: presented with two paper plates of salt, one pier when adulterated. 412 00:26:13,476 --> 00:26:16,636 Speaker 1: Heloise and Lee each take a big breath, then a 413 00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:18,876 Speaker 1: quick drink of water to cleanse the palate. 414 00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:21,916 Speaker 2: I'm gonna guess this one's first one. 415 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:28,356 Speaker 3: Anybody you think I have no idea. They taste exactly 416 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 3: the same, extremely salty. I still taste it. 417 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,116 Speaker 2: It's extremely salty, both of them. Well, this one looks 418 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:39,196 Speaker 2: like it's a different density, and maybe they added more 419 00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:40,636 Speaker 2: stuff to it. 420 00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 3: Oh they're so tiny, though, how can you even see 421 00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:44,156 Speaker 3: what's bigger? 422 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:46,996 Speaker 5: Maybe this looks bigger. 423 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:48,196 Speaker 3: Oh this is smaller. 424 00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:49,716 Speaker 5: Oh, I need glasses. 425 00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 4: That's the issue. 426 00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:54,516 Speaker 2: Is so which was? Which is which? 427 00:26:54,836 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 9: This one was the honest. 428 00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 2: They taste exactly the same. 429 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 1: Turns out you can put just about whatever you want 430 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:12,876 Speaker 1: in salt and no one's going to notice. I think 431 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:16,156 Speaker 1: you can see where I'm going with this. My magic 432 00:27:16,196 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 1: wand well, my, you know my idea. The reason I 433 00:27:19,076 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 1: called you is that I was curious about putting it 434 00:27:23,476 --> 00:27:28,836 Speaker 1: in salt along with iodine. By it, I mean the 435 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:32,556 Speaker 1: COVID vaccine. Now, I realized that, given the present limits 436 00:27:32,556 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 1: of science, that's an impossibility. We don't know how to 437 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:38,156 Speaker 1: make a vaccine so stable that you could stick it 438 00:27:38,196 --> 00:27:42,276 Speaker 1: in a condiment. Maybe someday not today. But that's why 439 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 1: this is a magic wand experiment the things that we 440 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,156 Speaker 1: would love to do but can't because of the laws 441 00:27:47,196 --> 00:27:49,836 Speaker 1: of nature. But I have explained the rules of the 442 00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 1: game to Semasigaiar and she has agreed to play. I 443 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:57,916 Speaker 1: put it in salt, and I call it something different. 444 00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:04,356 Speaker 1: I say, it's the anti COVID supplement that I'm sticking 445 00:28:04,356 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: in your salt. So we've now were not called we're 446 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 1: not using the word vaccine at all, because vaccine from 447 00:28:09,956 --> 00:28:13,236 Speaker 1: most people is associated with the thing that you get 448 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:16,196 Speaker 1: in a needle, right, So now we're saying, actually, no, no, no, 449 00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 1: it's just like idine or you know, the the niosin 450 00:28:21,836 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 1: in your weed or whatever, and weed I forget. It's 451 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:29,156 Speaker 1: a nutritional supplement that we're putting in salt, which we 452 00:28:29,156 --> 00:28:33,636 Speaker 1: think will help fight covid. Does my question is does 453 00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:38,356 Speaker 1: moving the COVID vaccine from the vaccine category to the 454 00:28:38,436 --> 00:28:42,236 Speaker 1: nutritional supplement category help us with the skeptic. 455 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:46,716 Speaker 8: So you're not calling that a vaccine, you're still tricking 456 00:28:46,756 --> 00:28:49,156 Speaker 8: them in some ways, right, because you're not giving them 457 00:28:49,356 --> 00:28:50,236 Speaker 8: the full information. 458 00:28:51,156 --> 00:28:53,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take it for granted here. There's gonna be 459 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:57,476 Speaker 1: some trickery, but I'm calling it. I'm just saying it's 460 00:28:57,516 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 1: a supplement and it just helps you fight COVID accurate. 461 00:29:00,836 --> 00:29:06,676 Speaker 8: Right, Sure, you've reframed, You've essentially reframed the product in 462 00:29:06,716 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 8: a way that doesn't play into their beliefs that you know, 463 00:29:11,876 --> 00:29:14,396 Speaker 8: the vaccine has market chips that are following them as 464 00:29:14,436 --> 00:29:17,956 Speaker 8: doing X. It's yeah, yeah, I think it could. 465 00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:19,156 Speaker 4: So. 466 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:24,916 Speaker 1: In other words, the threshold of resistance for something that 467 00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:30,156 Speaker 1: you eat as part of your regular diet, we would 468 00:29:30,396 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 1: this is what we'd like to find out. Is that 469 00:29:32,916 --> 00:29:36,396 Speaker 1: lower than your threshold of resistance for something that is 470 00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:40,956 Speaker 1: a that is framed as a medical intervention. Is there 471 00:29:40,956 --> 00:29:45,996 Speaker 1: a category of person who who is a COVID skeptic 472 00:29:46,116 --> 00:29:50,396 Speaker 1: who would then whose skepticism would translate as indifference to 473 00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 1: some kind of intervention. So it's hard to be indifferent 474 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 1: about a shot, particularly when you have to go to 475 00:29:56,676 --> 00:30:00,396 Speaker 1: the doctor register, wait in line, blah blah blah. But 476 00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: maybe it's so easy to be indifferent too. I'm in 477 00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:07,636 Speaker 1: McDonald's and it's it's on my fries. So it's like, 478 00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 1: and if I don't believe it COVID exists in the 479 00:30:09,676 --> 00:30:11,956 Speaker 1: first place, what I would do is roll my eyes. 480 00:30:12,156 --> 00:30:15,476 Speaker 1: The people who think that by eating fries they're protecting themselves. 481 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:16,876 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to not eat the. 482 00:30:16,796 --> 00:30:19,836 Speaker 8: Fries, right because I care about the fries. 483 00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:24,196 Speaker 1: I care about the fries. That's my hope. Listeners may 484 00:30:24,276 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 1: remember one of my favorite all time Revisionist History episodes, 485 00:30:27,796 --> 00:30:32,316 Speaker 1: season two, McDonald's Broke My Heart. We take fries very 486 00:30:32,356 --> 00:30:35,196 Speaker 1: seriously here. Fries can change the world. 487 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:38,756 Speaker 8: No, it's true. I mean you don't always have to 488 00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:41,876 Speaker 8: change someone's belief or their mental model to get them 489 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:42,716 Speaker 8: to do a behavior. 490 00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:43,596 Speaker 1: Yeah. 491 00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:48,036 Speaker 8: Right, you can make it very easy. You can make 492 00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:50,916 Speaker 8: the thing that you want them to do and impediment 493 00:30:50,956 --> 00:30:52,676 Speaker 8: for something they really care about, as you said, like 494 00:30:52,756 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 8: eating the fries. 495 00:30:54,716 --> 00:30:58,196 Speaker 1: On the other hand, maybe this whole COVID fighting salt 496 00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: idea might be a bust. Remember the whole brew haha 497 00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:06,276 Speaker 1: over fluoride. The powers that be put fluoride in the 498 00:31:06,276 --> 00:31:09,076 Speaker 1: water supply back of the nineteen fifties as a simple 499 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:12,916 Speaker 1: way to fight tooth decay, and some people are still 500 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:16,716 Speaker 1: upset about it to this day. Portland, Oregon, refuses to 501 00:31:16,756 --> 00:31:20,436 Speaker 1: floridate its water. Go to Portland, ask people there how 502 00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:23,636 Speaker 1: many cavities they have. They would rather sit in a 503 00:31:23,716 --> 00:31:27,036 Speaker 1: dentist's chair, all numbed up and get drilled for an 504 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:30,036 Speaker 1: hour that have the government slip something harmless in their 505 00:31:30,076 --> 00:31:34,196 Speaker 1: drinking water. To paraphrase the old cliche, the people of 506 00:31:34,236 --> 00:31:42,956 Speaker 1: Portland will cut off their teeth despite their mouths. There 507 00:31:42,996 --> 00:31:47,316 Speaker 1: is a scenario where putting the vaccine in salt is 508 00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 1: every bit is insidious or maybe even more insidious than 509 00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 1: putting it in a vaccine right in the same way 510 00:31:56,836 --> 00:32:00,156 Speaker 1: that fluoride was considered to be insidious by virtue of 511 00:32:00,196 --> 00:32:04,636 Speaker 1: the fact that it was ubiquitous, it was unavoidable and everywhere. 512 00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 1: We're still going to get a skeptic group with the salt. 513 00:32:07,716 --> 00:32:09,876 Speaker 1: The question is whether the skeptic group with the salt 514 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:12,596 Speaker 1: is smaller than the skeptic group with the needle. 515 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:15,876 Speaker 8: Or now you get another skeptic on top of the 516 00:32:15,876 --> 00:32:18,956 Speaker 8: existing skeptic you know, I mean, yes, this will be 517 00:32:19,036 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 8: like a massive government intervention my people, who really you know, 518 00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:23,676 Speaker 8: don't want the government interfering. 519 00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:23,796 Speaker 6: In their lives. 520 00:32:23,836 --> 00:32:26,156 Speaker 8: This is that, right, This is like the government now 521 00:32:26,196 --> 00:32:28,876 Speaker 8: telling me I can't avoid because I have to have 522 00:32:28,956 --> 00:32:30,276 Speaker 8: the salt with the vaccine. 523 00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:34,036 Speaker 1: What if the geniuses at Maderna came up with COVID 524 00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:39,156 Speaker 1: vaccine two point zero, which was so incredibly ingenious that 525 00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:41,196 Speaker 1: we could just throw it in with the iodine in 526 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:45,276 Speaker 1: our table salt. Well, we have no idea whether that 527 00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 1: would help our struggle to get everyone vaccinated. Hence my 528 00:32:49,676 --> 00:32:54,716 Speaker 1: magic wand Akron versus Cleveland. Just like all times, Akron 529 00:32:54,756 --> 00:32:59,316 Speaker 1: gets COVID salt, Cleveland gets the needle. All that Semma 530 00:32:59,636 --> 00:33:02,996 Speaker 1: wave the magic wand so tell me what the experiment 531 00:33:02,996 --> 00:33:03,596 Speaker 1: should look like. 532 00:33:05,876 --> 00:33:10,116 Speaker 8: Okay, So I would actually have three arms, so the experiment. 533 00:33:10,156 --> 00:33:12,236 Speaker 8: So I'd have obviously one arm of the experiment, which 534 00:33:12,276 --> 00:33:13,956 Speaker 8: is why people have to go and get their needle 535 00:33:14,036 --> 00:33:18,516 Speaker 8: the regular today. I would have one arm of the experiment, 536 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:21,156 Speaker 8: whereas all the salt that a group of people in 537 00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:24,676 Speaker 8: this place are consuming actually already has the vaccine, right 538 00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:27,716 Speaker 8: they cannot choose. And then I would have another arm 539 00:33:27,996 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 8: where the packages that you call in the supermarket are 540 00:33:31,556 --> 00:33:35,716 Speaker 8: actually labeled. You know, some of them have the COVID 541 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:36,756 Speaker 8: what did you call. 542 00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:39,956 Speaker 1: It, It's the anti COVID supplement, anti COVID supplement. 543 00:33:40,036 --> 00:33:41,716 Speaker 8: So some of the packages would have the anti COVID 544 00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:43,756 Speaker 8: supplement and someone so you give them a choice. 545 00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:50,036 Speaker 1: Essentially no choice, salt choice salt needle. That's our magic 546 00:33:50,076 --> 00:33:53,916 Speaker 1: wand experiment. Cleveland gets it in the arm, Acron gets 547 00:33:53,916 --> 00:33:56,636 Speaker 1: it in the salt, and someone else has to choose 548 00:33:56,676 --> 00:34:02,916 Speaker 1: between salts. Let's make that I don't know Toledo three arms, 549 00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:07,036 Speaker 1: three arms. We run the experiment for six months, an 550 00:34:07,076 --> 00:34:11,836 Speaker 1: experiment in how the form of vaccine affects hesitancy. We 551 00:34:11,956 --> 00:34:15,156 Speaker 1: kind of know what happens in Cleveland. Most people get 552 00:34:15,156 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 1: their vaccine shots, but there'll still be a big group 553 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:21,356 Speaker 1: who don't. But what about Toledo, where you get to 554 00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 1: choose whether or not you want anti COVID salt supplement. 555 00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:29,916 Speaker 1: We don't know. But the bigger unknown is Acron. You 556 00:34:29,956 --> 00:34:32,956 Speaker 1: can't live an Acron and not get vaccinated unless you 557 00:34:33,076 --> 00:34:37,836 Speaker 1: systematically remove all salt from your diet, never eat out, 558 00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:43,156 Speaker 1: consume flavorless pasta, and soup suffer. So do people leave 559 00:34:43,236 --> 00:34:46,196 Speaker 1: Akron in a panic? Or do they say, I'm an 560 00:34:46,236 --> 00:34:50,156 Speaker 1: Akronite inheritor of a grand tradition of using my salt 561 00:34:50,156 --> 00:34:52,996 Speaker 1: shaker to solve the greater problems of the world. Fit 562 00:34:53,276 --> 00:34:58,036 Speaker 1: I'm in, in which case, within days, Acron is the 563 00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:01,756 Speaker 1: shining city on a hill. Masks come off the hospitals, 564 00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:05,396 Speaker 1: Empty strangers give each other hugs and big, sloppy kisses. 565 00:35:05,876 --> 00:35:09,436 Speaker 1: A convoy of angry long hauled truckers chanting my body, 566 00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:12,916 Speaker 1: my Choice, starts out in Cincinnati and heads for Akron, 567 00:35:13,596 --> 00:35:16,556 Speaker 1: only to turn back in frustration when they stopped for 568 00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:26,596 Speaker 1: luncheon McDonald's in downtown Akron and inadvertently vaccinate themselves. And 569 00:35:26,756 --> 00:35:30,636 Speaker 1: soon people across this great country, from California to the 570 00:35:30,636 --> 00:35:32,876 Speaker 1: New York Island, from the Redwood Forest to the Gulf 571 00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:37,796 Speaker 1: Stream Waters would rise up and say with one voice, 572 00:35:39,596 --> 00:35:44,076 Speaker 1: I'll have Akron salt with my fries. Salt. The tastes 573 00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:49,756 Speaker 1: like freedom. 574 00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:52,396 Speaker 9: I went back to how. 575 00:35:54,236 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 10: Oh my beers were gone. 576 00:35:58,636 --> 00:36:06,916 Speaker 9: There were no mass man days, restaurants, downtown. 577 00:36:07,836 --> 00:36:08,196 Speaker 8: Sars. 578 00:36:08,236 --> 00:36:14,636 Speaker 11: COVID is just here, even from unbendilated. 579 00:36:13,876 --> 00:36:24,796 Speaker 10: Places, salt shakers everywhere, reducing hospital chases. 580 00:36:25,916 --> 00:36:36,716 Speaker 11: Hey, oh, way to go oh hi yo, Hey way 581 00:36:37,076 --> 00:36:38,236 Speaker 11: to go Hi. 582 00:36:48,916 --> 00:36:53,276 Speaker 9: Revisionist History is produced by Eloise Linton, Lee mcgisto, and 583 00:36:53,396 --> 00:36:56,236 Speaker 9: Jacob Smith, with Tally Amlin and Harrison VJ. 584 00:36:56,436 --> 00:36:56,676 Speaker 10: Choy. 585 00:36:57,996 --> 00:37:01,916 Speaker 9: Our editor is Julia Barton. Our executive producer is Meil Lavelle. 586 00:37:03,116 --> 00:37:06,756 Speaker 9: Original scoring by Luis Gara, mastering by Flon Williams and 587 00:37:06,876 --> 00:37:11,036 Speaker 9: engineering by Nina Lawrence. Fact check by keish L Williams. 588 00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:16,916 Speaker 1: Oh and special thanks to Dave Hall on vocals and guitar. 589 00:37:17,316 --> 00:37:21,316 Speaker 1: Additional engineering by Amon Drum and Yuroch Jovanovich at the 590 00:37:21,356 --> 00:37:27,036 Speaker 1: Bridge Studios. Our voice actor was David Glover. Thanks also 591 00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:30,636 Speaker 1: to the University Hospitals of Cleveland Archive and the folks 592 00:37:30,876 --> 00:37:35,036 Speaker 1: who make diamond crystal salt at the Cargill Salt Plant. 593 00:37:36,116 --> 00:37:36,996 Speaker 1: I'm Matthew Blaba. 594 00:38:14,236 --> 00:38:21,756 Speaker 7: I went back to Ohio and the corner was gone. 595 00:38:23,076 --> 00:38:29,236 Speaker 7: There were no one sightly masses on people's necks downtown. 596 00:38:32,516 --> 00:38:36,116 Speaker 7: Hey oh wait to go ohi 597 00:38:36,396 --> 00:38:45,036 Speaker 1: Yo, hey oh wait to go higher.