1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. After decades of debate, it is 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: now common knowledge that the world is in the midst 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: of an ever increasing energy crisis, and that the long 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: era of burning fossil fuels for power is contributing to 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: our own demise. And yet the transition to alternative energy 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: is proving to be more complex than you might think. 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: The Harper's Magazine article Boomtown examines the solar land rush 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: currently happening in the American West, specifically in the town 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: of Beatty in Nai County, Nevada. The Ni County area 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: has the capacity to produce enough energy through its prospective 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: solar farms to power the entire planet, Yes, the entire planet. 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: Close to the entrance of Death Valley National Park, It's 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: an area rife with flat land and almost endless sunlight, 15 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: but residents are pushing back on proposals to use its 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: land for this purpose. After a series of exploitative boom 17 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: bust cycles like the Gold Rush. Residents are opposing the 18 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: plan on ecological and economic grounds. They argue that covering 19 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: Nevada in solar panels will affect wildlife, recreational spaces, and 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: the town's future. The article asks the difficult questions of 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 1: who should sacrifice for our collective future and at what cost. 22 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: My guests today are deep into this inquiry. Dustin mulvaney 23 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: is a solar expert and professor of environmental studies at 24 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: San Jose State University, and he collaborated on the Harper's article. 25 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: But first the author of Boomtown, Hilary Angelo, is an 26 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: urban environmental sociologist and associate professor of sociology at the 27 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: University of California, Santa Cruz. She is also a current 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: member of the Institute for Advanced Study, where she is 29 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: working with other scholars on the issue of climate crisis politics. 30 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how her work in urban sociology 31 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: was related to sustainability and the growing issue of water scarcity. 32 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 2: I do a lot of work on urban sustainability and 33 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: sustainability planning in general, and so a lot of questions 34 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: about how human settlement relates to the external environment. So 35 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: one of my interests in this topic and in these 36 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: questions about energy is are we making the same decisions 37 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: again as we now confront this new environmental crisis? Because 38 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: much like we've done with water. We sort of created 39 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: these very large scale infrastructure systems in the twentieth century 40 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 2: that made huge quantities of water available to you know, 41 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: people who lived in cities in Los Angeles and elsewhere, 42 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: and we're now confronting the unsustainabilities of those decisions, especially 43 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: as the West gets dryer. And so yeah, I think 44 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: there's a kind of similar dynamic that's happening now. Obviously 45 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: we're not going to run out of sun, but we 46 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: will run out of land, or you know, we can 47 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: be making different choices about how to use these resources. 48 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: You know, when I was out there, it was like, 49 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: you know, people desperate, a lot of handwringing, a lot 50 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: of pronouncements, and then it would abate and it would 51 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: go away again for a while. But when I read 52 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: your article, I mean, now we pivot from that to Nevada. 53 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: Baity is the city, NI County is the general area. 54 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: And I don't want to use the word nimby, because 55 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: that to me bespeaks rich, privileged people who don't want 56 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: things in their vista that are necessary and they want 57 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: to impose among other people. I don't view those people 58 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: as nimby. How do you describe those residents there. 59 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's nice of you not to use 60 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: the term. When I initially heard that there were people 61 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: in the desert protest solar development, I also sort of 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: thought or assumed that they were Nimbi's. You know, that 63 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: is the framework that we're used to thinking about these issues, 64 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: which is a question of sort of you know, private 65 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: property or private interests versus questions of public good. When 66 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: I met these people, I mean, I think what I 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: found so interesting about them and what made me write 68 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: the article, is that I felt they were actually trying 69 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: to make this very important critique that has more to 70 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,679 Speaker 2: do with what you were just talking about about, for example, 71 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: the choices we made about water and other natural resources 72 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: in the twentieth century. Basically, they were saying, this is 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: a question of how we do social change, and we're 74 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: claiming that climate change is this moment of large scale 75 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 2: social transformation. But actually from our perspective, from their perspective, 76 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: we're making the same decisions about land use, about infrastructure development, 77 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: and so on. So I thought that kind of critique 78 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: that was being made doesn't fit into how we understand 79 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: Nimbi's Public land in the United States is a commons 80 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: or could be described as a commons, which isn't a 81 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: vocabulary that we use in the US very much, but 82 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: people talk ab got it. There's sort of similar fights 83 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 2: about renewable energy development in Latin America and Africa, and 84 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: people use the term energy grabbing like so they sort 85 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 2: of talk about this common land being taken by energy 86 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: companies and the implications that has for rural livelihoods, And 87 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: so I think that is actually much more similar to 88 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: what's going on in the American West. 89 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: Now, you know, here in New York, where as everybody knows, 90 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: you know, Robert Moses condemns and through eminent domain takes 91 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: whole neighborhoods in the Bronx so we can build a highway. 92 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: In New York City in cooperation with the state, sees 93 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: through eminent domain valleys of land that they evicted everybody 94 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: from and flooded them to make the reservoir system for 95 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: the city's drinking water. But in the area of Nevada 96 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: you were in, do they view it purely as another 97 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: rush companies coming in private companies to alter the landscape. 98 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: Do they see it as a critical element potentially in 99 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: something that we all have to make some sacrifices for 100 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: in some contribution, which is to address climate change. 101 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's a good question. I don't know. I 102 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: think some of them do and some of them probably don't. 103 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: Right. 104 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: For some people, there is a very personal emotional reaction 105 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: that any of us would have, right if the government 106 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: was coming and seizing land or you know, building flooding 107 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: a valley and putting a reservoir in your backyard. Of 108 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: that kind of thing, they just got themselves as fighting 109 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: for their lives. So that I think often in that 110 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: framework it doesn't sort of rise to the level of 111 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: the public good questions. But you know, one thing I 112 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: would say is that even within that, like even when 113 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: we start thinking in those terms about you know, what 114 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: is in the national interest or the public interest here, 115 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: and how should these public lands be used, Like, there's 116 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: a real question about what the highest and best use is. 117 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: So for example, in the West, there was a period 118 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: of time when valleys were being flooded for reservoirs. 119 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: Right. 120 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: So, I mean there have been shifts in the kind 121 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: of American public consciousness and sentiment about these issues over 122 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: time in terms of saying to themselves, well, you know, 123 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: the thing that's really in the public interest is to 124 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: have this reservoir here versus the thing that's in the 125 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: public interest is to save this you know, beautiful valley 126 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: so that we can have that as part of our 127 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: heart fish stocks exactly. And so yeah, I think what 128 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: I find complicated about this question is is that that's 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: an open question. Right. There's a climate crisis and we 130 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: have to be carbonized, but there's also an extinction crisis 131 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: and a biodiversity crisis, and so one can argue that 132 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: preserving desert habitat is you know, is also an important 133 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: part of responding to claims. 134 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: Just so if you have where you you mentioned in 135 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: the article, the eighty five percent of the land mass 136 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: in the state of Nevada is federal land. Yeah, and 137 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: is all of that controlled by. 138 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: BLM basically yes. So yeah, So for. 139 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: People who are listening, is Beaty and n County is 140 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: that on federal land that they're allowed to occupy or 141 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: are they in private land? 142 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: It's federal land. So Beaty is a small is a 143 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: town that they describe as sort of landlocked. So it's 144 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: a little island of you know, people have owned parcels 145 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: of land and then it's surrounded by public land and 146 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: for people who are listening. So public lands managed mostly 147 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: by the Bureau of Land Management, which is a department 148 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: of the Interior, sometimes the Forest Service and other things, 149 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: and they're managed under what's called the multiple Use Mandate, 150 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: which means these lands, unlike national parks, are open for 151 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: extractive activities or energy development as well as recreation. And 152 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: it's actually one in ten acres of land in the 153 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: United States, which I found amazing just to learn. So, yeah, 154 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: so it's a little island of a regular town where 155 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: people own properties surrounded by this public land. 156 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: When did the people of NY County get introduced to 157 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: this rush? 158 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: Basically now it's happening now. So there was a sort 159 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: of initial solar rush or you know, phase one of 160 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: the solar rush, which is about ten years ago. And 161 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: Dustin Melvini, who you'll be speaking to later today, has 162 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: been studying that so can talk about this over a 163 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: longer timescale. But much of that took place in California. 164 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 2: And so the people I mentioned in the article, Kevin 165 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: and Laura, who run a nonprofit called Basin and Range Watch. 166 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: They have been part of a group of sort of 167 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: western desert advocates and desert protectors, who include people trained 168 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: in conservation biology and that kind of thing, but also 169 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: many tribes and indigenous groups and activists and artists and 170 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: kind of other people who care about the desert for 171 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: various reasons. And so they started arguing, you know, ten 172 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: years ago that renewable energy development of this sort sort 173 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: of large scale on what is called undisturbed lands was 174 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: going to threaten deserts and was a problem. It's just 175 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: come to beaty kind of now. And it's come because 176 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: there's a new transmission line that's going to be built 177 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: around the state of Nevada. So it's a big triangle 178 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: and that's going to help carry renewable energy but also 179 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: fossil fuel based energy probably and export that to other states. 180 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: So the solar developers are kind of following where these 181 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: transmission lines are likely to be. 182 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: Now, knowing as we do that similar to the water crisis, 183 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: there's a clock ticking here in terms of climate change 184 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: and global warming, and I'm wondering what you think what 185 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: it's going to take for us to have I never 186 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: used the word Manhattan Project because that bespeaks war. I 187 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: tend to use the word Apollo Project, where we're going 188 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: to really, really the government's going to get serious about 189 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: spending money on these projects, not waiting for private developers 190 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: to do it. What do you think it's going to take. 191 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: What an excellent question. I think we're all we're all 192 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: asking that question right now. 193 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 194 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: And to be clear, just since you were talking about 195 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: some of like sort of where nationally we're going to 196 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: be putting renewable energy development, right, I am not. I mean, 197 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: most energy experts agree that we're going to need some 198 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: you know, large scale utility scale solar and wand and renewables. 199 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: So this is not a this is not an argument 200 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: against large scale solar per se. It's a question about 201 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: where we put it and how we're building it out. 202 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: Human settlements are all kind of unsustainable in their own ways, right, 203 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: So some cities need water brought to them, some cities 204 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: need food brought into them, like New York. So it's 205 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: not again, it's not also to say that, you know, 206 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 2: we've made a terrible mistake creating cities in the Southwest. 207 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a few things that are 208 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: missing right now. So one is we don't really have 209 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: good frameworks for large scale planning in the United States. 210 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 2: And I sort of mentioned this, I think in the 211 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: article in passing, probably in one sentence. But there isn't 212 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: other than the Bureau of Land Management, which isn't really 213 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 2: staffed or funded for playing this kind of role. There 214 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: is not a federal agency that can make really big, 215 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 2: coordinated decisions about land use. Seems very important. So there 216 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: are you know, there are planned energy corridors like so 217 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: there's a they know where these transmission lines are likely 218 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: to go. There was some federal planning around that, but 219 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: there's absolutely no coordination between different types of activities related 220 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 2: to renewables, So lithium, geothermal, solar farms, all that can 221 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: kind of happen in the same place. All those permits 222 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 2: are assessed separately. The planning of transmission lines and location 223 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: of substations takes place separately from questions about where to 224 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: put actual solar farms. So all of these things are 225 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: happening in this really piecemeal way that makes it hard 226 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: to make good decisions. And I think also the role 227 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: that the federal government is playing is one of kind 228 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: of lowering barriers to private development. Right They've tried to 229 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: make it easier for many good reasons for private developers 230 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: to build out solar, to build out renewables, to reduce 231 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: the financial risks that those companies are taking on to 232 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 2: do it. Which is good in terms of facilitating you know, 233 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: solar happening quickly, it is not as good in terms 234 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: of helping guide projects to the best locations or having 235 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: these kinds of big picture questions in mind. Right, So 236 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: the federal government could be making decisions like should this 237 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: land in central Nevada be part of our twenty five 238 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: y twenty five initiative, which is the goal to build 239 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: out twenty five gigatts of solar by twenty twenty five 240 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: on public lands, or. 241 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: The thirty ontograt for that. 242 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 2: They're trying to be Yeah, but there's also at the 243 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: same time a thirty by thirty initiative, which is to 244 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: conserve thirty percent of the land mass in the United 245 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: States as you know and whatever they call it, you know, 246 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: intact habitat. And so this land in Nevada be part 247 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: of the energy sort of portfolio or part of the 248 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: conservation portfolio. I mean, those are the kinds of questions 249 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: that I think the federal government could be stepping in 250 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: to help answer. 251 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: You're an urban sociologist, describe for our listeners what that is. Yeah. 252 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: So I usually say I'm an urban and environmental sociologist, 253 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: and so a lot of my work is about ideas 254 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: about nature and the environment and how we mobilize them 255 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: when making decisions about the built environment about cities. So, 256 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: before I got my PhD, I worked for the New 257 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: York City Parks Department. 258 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: Actually, so, where are you from. 259 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: Originally I'm actually from Kentucky, but I went to college 260 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: near here. I went to Vassar i. 261 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: Vasa, Yeah, nuts valid, and then you got your PhD. 262 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I worked here in city government and then 263 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: I stayed here. I worked for a program called Partnerships 264 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: for Parks that was actually a public private partnership, but 265 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: it basically existed, exists, it still exists to get communities 266 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: involved in their city parks and to advocate for them, 267 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 2: and to also help the parks department work better with 268 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: the public. 269 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: I first moved here in seventy nine to go to NYU, 270 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: and then the Conservancy emerged, and there was all this brief, 271 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: as I recall, debate about what union labor no city 272 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: workers who worked there, how much were they being usurped 273 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: by this private group. Now we have this quasi private 274 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: public marriage of the two. I mean Central Park is 275 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: like a business. 276 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: Now it is. And you know this actually relates to 277 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: the other things we're talking about. I mean it's a 278 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: double edged sword. In the West. I mean, national parks 279 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: are much like Central Park. Right. National parks, as many 280 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: people know, are these very controlled spaces. You're shuttled from 281 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: here to there. They're super crowded, there's lots of infrastructure, bathrooms, 282 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: internet for tourists. It's for tourists. Public lands are like 283 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: the interstitial spaces were I mean, I will just say 284 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: so coming from California, there's a lot of state parks there. 285 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: They don't allow dogs in state parks. So it was 286 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: the middle of COVID and I got dog when I 287 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: moved to California from New York because I didn't know 288 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: what else to do with my time, and so I 289 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: discovered public lands because it was a place you could 290 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: take your dog. You can take your dog, you can 291 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: shoot guns, you can ride motorized vehicles, you can live there, 292 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: you can camp for fourteen days without a permit. It's 293 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: a really kind of interesting and amazing place. Again just 294 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: because as an urban nite and a coastal urban nite. 295 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: I really had no sense that this land existed in 296 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: the United States and that it still exists. And it's 297 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: not to say that it's a free for all, but 298 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: those are the kinds of questions that are coming up 299 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: now about about these landscapes. I think in a similar way, 300 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: and the changes in parks in New York, I think 301 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: can show us how public relationships to these spaces changes 302 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: so dramatically. Right, Central Park went from being a dangerous 303 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: place that was not particularly valued or was seen as 304 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: like a liability. 305 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: We don't go in the park. Right, the park was 306 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: dangerous as a very dangerous space. 307 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody, it's like the mall. 308 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: It is. 309 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: Central Park. 310 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: No, No, No. Urban and environmental sociologist Hillary Angelo. If 311 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: you are interested in conversations about energy sources and our future, 312 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: be sure to check out my episode with journalist Nicholas Narkos, 313 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: who investigated the cobalt rush in the Democratic Republic of Congo. 314 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 3: Just like chatting with his kid ZICKI. He was working 315 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: in mind since he was three, basically, and then there 316 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: was this moment where I showed him my phone. I said, 317 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: the new iPhone is going for a two hundred dollars 318 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: and everybody there knows that it's going into batteries something 319 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: like fifty percent of the cobalt. Mind there it goes 320 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: into letting my own batteries. How do you feel about this? 321 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 3: And he was just like, I feel terrible, And I 322 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: think he sort of thought, you know, how can people 323 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: sort of sanction such violence against people like me? 324 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: Hear more of my conversation with Nicholas Narkos that Here's 325 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org After the break, Hillary Angelo proposes 326 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: new ways of thinking for the solar model. I'm ATLEC. 327 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing. For 328 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: her article on the solar boom in the West, Hillary 329 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: Angelo dug deep into the history of the area and 330 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: the exploitation of its land. I wanted to know if 331 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: places like Ni County were deemed off limits for development, 332 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: what spaces might be used instead. 333 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. People talk about locating large 334 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: scale solar on disturbed lands, that's what they call these. 335 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: So this is sort of industrial I think in terms 336 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: of things like brown Field. So yeah, where there was 337 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: a factory and it's polluted. They talk about areas where 338 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: there was strip mining, and Appalachia so often prison top, yeah, mountaintop. 339 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 2: So often prisons come to those regions now because they're 340 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, undesirable land uses. People don't want 341 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 2: prisons near their houses. But it's also not the best 342 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: thing for a community in Appalachia, right, Maybe you'd prefer 343 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: to have a solar farm in a prison. There's also farmland. 344 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: This is in California, so exhausted farmland that can't be 345 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: used for farming anymore, or that they don't have water 346 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: to farm on anymore, Like that's another good place for it. 347 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think those are all possible. 348 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: Now, the energy that could be accessed by the residents 349 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: of Ni County doesn't have to be part of a 350 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: solar farm that they're constructing. You could literally in the 351 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: bargaining say you're going to build us our own solar farm. 352 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: In other words, we're going to have free energy for 353 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: everybody that lives here, free for the rest of our lives. 354 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: And that's the gift you're going to give us, an 355 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: exchange for us not getting in the way of your project. 356 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: When you say this energy goes elsewhere, that's the reality. 357 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: It goes elsewhere. They don't get it they don't get 358 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: to wet their beak. As we say in the mafia. 359 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: It's tricky to answer that question. It does. Like the 360 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: very simple way that it could be stated is, yeah, 361 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: it goes elsewhere. This is like large scale renewable energy 362 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: being generated to send and be purchased by companies. Yeah, exactly. 363 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 2: But you know, as I've heard the Bureau of Land 364 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: Management and other people say, like once you get the 365 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: electrons in the transmission line, that you can't really parse 366 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 2: it out in those ways. So there is a you know, 367 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: obviously there is local energy being generated and used in Baby, 368 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: So I assume they get some of it, but. 369 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: It feels like maybe they should get more of it. 370 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: Maybe they should get more of it. Yeah, I don't 371 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't know. I mean, I think, 372 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: you know, again, the bigger question for them is what 373 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: is the economy of this town, And for them, this 374 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 2: kind of tourism model seems to have a better long 375 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 2: term future for them, and it makes them less reliant 376 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 2: on a company that may be kind of here today, 377 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: gone tomorrow. Renewable energy not just solar, but also things 378 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: like lithium and geothermal, Like there's a lot of speculation. 379 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: You know, it's a new in just and so there 380 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: are many companies that are trying to get their hands 381 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: in it. And some of them are good and stable 382 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: and some of them are not. And so they yeah, 383 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: they I think they worry about, you know, becoming a 384 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: new company town basically, and then the company folds. 385 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: And then do you like writing? I do like writing? Yeah, yeah, 386 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: Because I'm not saying this to be kind. What really 387 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: hooked me was that this is such so well written, 388 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: this piece you did you mean you're writing? It is fantastic. 389 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: And I'm an old Harper's junkie. Louis Lappham is an 390 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: old old friend of mine, and I don't mean old chronologically, 391 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: which he's old chronologically too, but he's a dear friend 392 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: of mine. So I'm a big Harper's reader. What are 393 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: you working on now. 394 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: I'm working at a book. So I'm working at a 395 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: book on public lands and the energy transition, so basically 396 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: looking at the future of public lands in some ways 397 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 2: that we've just talked about, like basically, climate change is 398 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: this moment of large scale transformation. Old infrastructure systems are crumbling, 399 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: old ways of doing life on Earth are crumbling, and 400 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: we're building a bunch of new systems. So I'm curious about, 401 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 2: you know, how that's happening and whether we are actually 402 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: able to kind of change the way we do things, 403 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 2: change the political economy, change the relationship to the environment 404 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: in fundamental ways. I just want to say one thing. 405 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to invite myself to say one thing before 406 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: we sign off, which is, you know, as an urban sociologist, 407 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: a lot of what my work was about was looking 408 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: at kind of the decisions we made in the name 409 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: of nature that were not sound decisions environmentally, Right Like, 410 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: we often oppose housing construction because we want to preserve 411 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: open space, but in not building housing, we push people out, 412 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: out and out and out, We increase commuting, we increase emissions, right, 413 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: we fragment habitats, you know, and that kind of thing. 414 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: So I think this is a similar thing, right Like, 415 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: we need to decarbonize, we need to do it fast. 416 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: We're in the middle of climate crisis, but there are 417 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: multiple there are you know, competing issues here, including habitat 418 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 2: and biodiversity crisis, and in using this land for scholar, 419 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 2: I think we are sort of failing to think about 420 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: the big picture of all of the environmental challenges that 421 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: we're currently facing, different ways to solve them. Well, thank 422 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: you very much, Thanks so much, thank you. That's a pleasure. 423 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: Institute for Advanced Study scholar Hillary Angelo my next guest. 424 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: San Jose State University Professor Dustin mulvaney is the author 425 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: of Solar Power, Innovation, Sustainability, and Environmental Justice, and he 426 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: is also a source for the article Boomtown. I was 427 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: curious to learn what the people of NY County know 428 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: and understand about our climate crisis timeline and the sacrifice 429 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: that is being asked of them. 430 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 4: I do think that these communities have a long history 431 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 4: with extractive industries, and I think that that's the lens 432 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 4: through which they're interpreting a lot of the land us 433 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 4: change that might be coming their way and is already 434 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 4: coming their way for solar development. These folks who live 435 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 4: out there tend to be very tuned into the natural world, 436 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 4: so to speak, the desert ecosystem, and they know things 437 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 4: are changing. I have a sense that they they're familiar 438 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 4: with the climate change overarching challenge that we're all facing. 439 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 4: I think that they just have had these experiences where 440 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 4: when let's say, you know, a major city like Las 441 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 4: Vegas or Los Angeles needs a dump, they go to 442 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 4: the desert. When they need lithium, like they need today, 443 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 4: where do they go? They go to the desert. Where 444 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 4: do they need in this case, lots of sunshine. You know, 445 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 4: they feel like their resources are being somewhat squandered in 446 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 4: the sense that they also look around and see areas 447 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 4: that are disturbed, meaning they're not just living in these 448 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 4: rural areas that are rich ecosystems. They're living in a 449 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 4: rich ecosystem that also has pockets of extractivism all over it. 450 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 4: There's mining all over the California Desert. There has been 451 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 4: for a long time. 452 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: What are they mining were now? 453 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 4: Primarily there's gold mining, there's silver mining in Nevada. The 454 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 4: there's new mining projects that are being proposed in and 455 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 4: around the area where the solar development's happening as well. 456 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 4: Lithium mining. We have somewhere on the order of last 457 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 4: I checked, it was something like seventeen thousand plaster claims 458 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 4: for lithium in the state of Nevada, which is you know, lithium. 459 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 4: That's another major challenge, right we don't right now have 460 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 4: the supplies of lithium to get to the electrification of 461 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 4: vehicles that we are hoping to see in the future. 462 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 4: So I guess the way I think some of these 463 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 4: communities are seeing what they're being asked to sacrifice here, 464 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 4: they see it as somewhat of a false choice because 465 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 4: if you zoom out of the Mohave Desert and the 466 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 4: areas of the Colorado Desert, which is southern California, if 467 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 4: you zoom out, there's a lot of agriculture there. You know, 468 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 4: if you look at blythe a major city on the 469 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 4: Colorado River, they're growing lots of alfalfa for export for horses. Now, 470 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 4: those are opportunities to cite solar farms in these agricultural 471 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 4: areas the Imperial Valley. 472 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: So in an area where there's a lot of agriculture, 473 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: the solar is built adjacent to that. It's land that 474 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: they're not farmingland. It was one of the conditions there 475 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: that makes it less problematic for them. 476 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 4: Well, the key thing is the habitat. So you know, 477 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 4: when we're talking about the controversies in this particular region 478 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 4: of California and Nevada, the controversies are usually around the 479 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 4: public lands, and these public lands have been in conservation 480 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 4: by default because they have never been developed. So that 481 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 4: means that they're very good habitat for desert tortoise, which 482 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 4: we've lost almost ninety percent of that population of that animal, 483 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 4: that species that's been in that area since there were 484 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 4: sabertoothed cats, right, that species has been there for a 485 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 4: long time, and now we're we're damaging its habitat. So 486 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 4: when a solar farm is cited in agricultural areas, it's 487 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 4: usually a decision made by that farmer to convert either 488 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 4: out of agriculture or maybe you know, in some cases, 489 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 4: Blithe and the Imperial Value are going to be asked 490 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 4: to retire land because we're over extracting water from the 491 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 4: Colorado River as well. So there's this opportunity to kind 492 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 4: of put that puzzle together. As agricultural lands are retired, 493 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 4: maybe those are the opportunities to put the solar farms 494 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 4: because you don't damage the habitat. 495 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: And when you say damage the habitat, when you have 496 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: these installations in these places and quote unquote habitat is disturbed, 497 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: are they talking about one or the other of boat 498 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: or both of habitat for wildlife? You talk about the 499 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: tortoises and so forth are not necessarily baby in Nevada, 500 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: but are different areas worried about. They want things left 501 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: absolutely pristine and you know natural or is it They 502 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: want to be able to tear it up with an 503 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: ATV and have a dirt bike track. And there's cultural 504 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: imperatives and there's preferences they have that are not necessarily 505 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: in harmony with nature. Is it a combination of both. 506 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 4: It is a combination of multiple factors, partly because the 507 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 4: public lands system, which is managed by the Bureau of 508 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 4: Land Management in the Department of Interior, is the one 509 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 4: federal agency without a mission, meaning the National Park Service 510 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 4: has a mission to provide park services and get people 511 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 4: to see nature. The Forest Service has a mission to 512 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 4: manage sustainable yield of forests in some places and manage 513 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 4: wildernesses and others. But the Bureau of Land Management has 514 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 4: multiple priorities. Conservation is one of them, but energy development 515 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 4: is another, mining is another, Recreational ATV use is another. 516 00:27:54,440 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 4: So in some ways this controversy embodies the challe faced 517 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 4: by this federal agency since it was developed. You know, 518 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 4: the history of that agency is the General Land Office 519 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 4: was a federal agency that gave away land for development 520 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 4: the Homestead Act. As the West was settled, the General 521 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 4: Land Office offered out these lands for if you were 522 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 4: going to develop these lands and work them, farm them, 523 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 4: you could have it. And the desert areas were not farmable, 524 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 4: so the General Land Office could never give away these lands. 525 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 4: In fact, in the nineteen twenties, the Bureau Land Management 526 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 4: tried to give away lands back to the states and 527 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 4: that didn't happen. So the General Land Office gets merged 528 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 4: with a grazing agency, and that's the land that the 529 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 4: Bureau Land Management manages today. It's the nation's largest landlord. 530 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 4: It manages two hundred and fifty million acres across the West, 531 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 4: and it manages for all these different activities. Take the 532 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 4: desert tortoise again for an example. The desert tortoise. We 533 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 4: spend more money conserving that species than grizzly bear, bald eagle, 534 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 4: and gray wolf combined. So that species we make a 535 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 4: lot of federal investments in it. And on the flip side, 536 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 4: we've now permitted somewhere on the order of ten gigawatts 537 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 4: of solar on public lands. That's more than any other 538 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 4: state has, So that means that there's this kind of 539 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 4: inevitable clash of conservation because those lands were never developed. 540 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 4: And the Energy Policy Act of two thousand and five 541 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 4: was actually the biggest energy law that we had until 542 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 4: this most recent inflation Reduction Act. So the Energy Policy 543 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 4: Act of two thousand and five mandated that the Bureau 544 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 4: of Land Management develop for solar and the idea there 545 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 4: was partly, hey, we've been given out public lands for coal, 546 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 4: oil and gas for all these years. Now it's the 547 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 4: solar and other renewables industries turned to have the public lands. 548 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: Professor Dustin mulvaney, if you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep 549 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: it to yourself, Tell a friend and follow here's the 550 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: thing on the heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you 551 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. When we come back, Dustin Mulveny shares 552 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: a potential way to move forward for the communities that 553 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: will be affected by solar expansion. I'm Alec Baldwin and 554 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: this is here's the thing. Dustin Mulveny's research focuses on 555 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: the production of emerging technologies and their environmental impact, and 556 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: specifically solar energy commodity chains. I wanted Mulveny to share 557 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: what if any dangerous byproducts we might have to worry 558 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: about from the expansion of the solar industry. 559 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 4: So solar doesn't seem to have the same level of 560 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 4: challenges that batteries do up the supply chain. The key 561 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 4: ingredient for solar panel is quartz. Most of the solar 562 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 4: panels made out of glass, so by weight, quartz goes 563 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 4: into that glass, but there's a semiconductor grade quartz that's 564 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 4: mined and that's turned into a very very pure type 565 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 4: of silicon that eventually becomes the wafers that you see 566 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 4: in a solar cell. The key metal that is interesting 567 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 4: that the solar industry uses is silver. So on a 568 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 4: given year, the solar industry uses somewhere around fifteen percent 569 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 4: of the global silver supply, which is quite incredible. Now. 570 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 4: That is also interestingly hasn't led to an increase in 571 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 4: silver mining, partly because of the photo industry going away. 572 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 4: Silver was widely used in developing photographs, and that supply 573 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 4: basically now has kind of slid over to the solar industry, 574 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 4: not the direct supply, but has basically substituted that demand 575 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 4: over time. So a solar panels a somewhat simple technology 576 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 4: which poses some challenges for recycling. So that means that 577 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 4: like the solar panels not very valuable inside problematic elements 578 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 4: that are in a solar panel might be lead at 579 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 4: the end of its life, there's a little bit of 580 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 4: lead in the sod or it's not like a television 581 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 4: set that has a real lot of lead in it. 582 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 4: But that's probably the exposure of concern. For example, if 583 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 4: you're recycling solar panels, they've recycled ninety five percent of 584 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 4: their solar panels in Europe. 585 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: By the way, cadmium as an element in solar panels, 586 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: what role does that play. 587 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 4: So there are two major types of solar panels. Most 588 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 4: of them ninety five percent of them are crystalline silicon, 589 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 4: so they rely on that quartz and that very very 590 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 4: refined silicon. There's a different technology, a technology actually people 591 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 4: thought would be more widespread today, which is called thin film. 592 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 4: The silicon ones are exceptionally thin, but these thin films 593 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 4: are actually like one hundred times thinner. They're on the 594 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 4: order of one hundred nanem of thickness, and those are 595 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 4: the semiconductor layers that generate the electricity. So there's one 596 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 4: major manufacture of cadmium telluride solar panels, and that is 597 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 4: a thin film technology that is based on cadmium compounds, 598 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 4: so there's no quurts in that technology at all. It's 599 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 4: literally a totally different solar technology. The materials are totally different. 600 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: Now in France where recently they ruled that you have 601 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: to have a solar on every new parking structure that 602 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: is built, and we have a little bit of that 603 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: in this country. Without getting too political, Where in the 604 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: triptich of what I understand in terms of the menu 605 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: of renewable energy, where does geothermal fit in and does 606 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: it really work? Is geothermal something to your understanding, something 607 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: that only works site specific meaning your home. You drill 608 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: a geothermal well to provide certain resource is heating and cooling, 609 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: but it only works on a house by house basis. 610 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: Or are there is there the potential for geothermal to 611 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: work in the utility sense? 612 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're describing kind of the two different types 613 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 4: of geothermal. There is a household level heating cooling geothermal 614 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 4: where there's no electricity generation involved unless there's a heat 615 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 4: pump associated with that, which could be the case. Geothermal 616 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 4: at the utility scale is very location specific because it's 617 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 4: taking very hot steam or hot water and bringing it 618 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 4: up to the surface to turn a turbine. So there 619 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 4: are some advances that people are talking about enhanced geothermal 620 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 4: where they essentially go deeper and they may even fracture 621 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,959 Speaker 4: some rock, some of that heat source rock that's down low, 622 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 4: to increase its surface area to get a little more 623 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 4: steam out of it. But that is certainly another area 624 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 4: that's growing right now. Geothermal power is growing and it 625 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 4: also has the potential to provide some other resources as well, 626 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 4: So not just generating electricity from these power plants, but 627 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 4: district heating, so you could potentially so geothermal tends to 628 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 4: have a lot of waste water cooling water associated with it, 629 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 4: so you could potentially deliver just like we have our 630 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 4: water systems in our under our streets, you could have 631 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 4: a geothermal hot water system linked under the seats. In fact, 632 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 4: New York City has the largest i think district steam 633 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 4: system in yes, so you could do that. 634 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: What are some of the byproducts as well? It seems 635 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: like every time we address a problem, renewable energy as 636 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: an attempt to address a problem, and every time we 637 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: do that, not that we have an equivalent number of 638 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: problems we create, but we create some. What are some 639 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: of the problems as far as you're concerned that the 640 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: move to solar, that the build out of the solar future, 641 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: what are some of the problems that result from that. 642 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 4: Well, there are man issues, as I mentioned at the 643 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 4: end of life, I think that are important. There are 644 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 4: chemical stewardship questions around some of the very easy to 645 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 4: deal with chemicals. The industry actually doesn't use extremely toxic materials. 646 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 4: It uses materials that could be relatively easily treated even 647 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 4: in regular municipal wastewater treatment facilities in some cases, so 648 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 4: I'm not overly worried about that, I'll be honest, I 649 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 4: think the big issue is the land issue. We really 650 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 4: are moving from subterranean energy resources where you just poke, 651 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 4: you build a pad and poke a hole in the 652 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 4: ground and get tremendous quantities of dense energy to a 653 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 4: very diffuse resource that does require a lot of space. 654 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: But as far as I'm concerned, if I may, when 655 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: you make that point, the first thing that comes to 656 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: mind for me is you poke a hole in the 657 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: ground and you have presumably less damage to the crust 658 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: if you will to the exterior, But once that stuff 659 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: comes out of the ground, it more than makes up 660 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: for it and the toxicity and the damage it creates. Absolutely, 661 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: we punch a few holes in the ground, we inject 662 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: water into rock formations and force gas out with God 663 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: knows what the byproduct of that is. Who really knows 664 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: what the long term consequences of fracking are nobody, But 665 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: the resultant energy is far more what we want. Do 666 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: you see it that way? 667 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 4: I agree with that. Where I try to take a 668 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 4: little different approach to that is to not think of 669 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 4: it as training off one bad energy for another bad energy. 670 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 4: Meaning it's absolutely the case that even if the worst 671 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 4: case land use, solar is still better than what we're 672 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 4: doing right now in terms of the level of fossil 673 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 4: fuel extraction. That's not the question, But the question is 674 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 4: how to do it better because we have so many 675 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 4: other alternatives. That's the one beauty of this solar technology 676 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 4: is that it's the only technologlogy we can live under 677 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 4: that generates electricity. It's the only technology that we can 678 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 4: integrate into the built environment. It's the only technology that 679 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 4: we could easily integrate into agricultural areas. So to some extent, 680 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 4: I think the challenge is exactly what how you framed 681 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 4: it at first, which is that we tend to silo 682 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 4: these issues. We're only thinking about solar development from the 683 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 4: narrow lens of carbon. We're just like in the past, 684 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 4: we'd clean up water. You know, when I lived in 685 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 4: New Jersey, I was a site engineer cleaning up MTBE 686 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 4: spills MTBs an additive and gasoline. And the way we 687 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 4: cleaned up the groundwater pollution based on the rules that 688 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 4: we're supposed to follow, was to put it in the 689 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,919 Speaker 4: air in New York, So we just shift problems from 690 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 4: water problem to air problem. Air problem the water problem, 691 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 4: like we have acid rain from coal, right that we 692 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 4: somewhat solve that problem by taking the acid rain potential 693 00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 4: out of the air. But now we have solid weight 694 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 4: problems and fly ash problems at all these coal fire 695 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,280 Speaker 4: power plants because the scrubbers have collected all that toxic 696 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 4: stuff and now it's sitting at the coal plant. So 697 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 4: with the case of solar, we need to be thinking 698 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 4: more than just about like the trade offs on the 699 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 4: carbon question. We need to be thinking about how could 700 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 4: we build this in an integrative way where we're thinking 701 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 4: about water we're thinking about land, we're thinking about air 702 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 4: pollution at the same time, instead of trying to just 703 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 4: solve the carbon problem and then we'll figure out what 704 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 4: we'll do with the land problem later. 705 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: Typically, for what you'd see on its solar farm, how 706 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: long do solar panels last? If you're wondering if a 707 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: material that the urns generates energy is nonetheless banking in 708 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: the one hundred and twenty degree sun, a wind turbine 709 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: is out there in the ocean in salt water, and 710 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: how long do those last. Let's just stick with solar. 711 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 1: Solar panels typically last. 712 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 4: How long a typical solar panel is warranteed to last 713 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 4: twenty to twenty five years, So that's unlike any other 714 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 4: products that we really see. And the way the warranties 715 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 4: work is that they put out a certain amount of 716 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 4: power of their initial amount. So if you have one 717 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 4: hundred watts solar panel, it will put out eighty watts 718 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 4: by the end of its life twenty twenty five years. 719 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 4: Because impurities in those very hostile environments on your roof 720 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 4: in the desert, impurities creep into those solar cells and 721 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 4: that's what takes away their ability to generate power over time. However, 722 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 4: we've seen solar panels that are operating now fifty years, 723 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 4: so we certainly are seeing solar panels that are made 724 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 4: very very well. They go through all sorts of advanced 725 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 4: degradation tests, hail tests, corrosion tests, all sorts of tests 726 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 4: to make sure that they last a long time. In fact, 727 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 4: they have to do those in order to get to 728 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 4: ensure the warranties for the solar panels that they're selling. 729 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: What do you think is one step that we can 730 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: take that you think is triage? We need to do 731 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: this now. Now what do we need to do now? 732 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 4: I'll say two things. One, I think community ownership of 733 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 4: some of these assets is really critical. So it might 734 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 4: not be resolvable in its current situation, but we know that, 735 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 4: for example, when ranchers get together and they own the 736 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 4: wind farm, no one fights it. They all welcome it 737 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 4: because they're definitely they're going to receive direct benefit from that. 738 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 4: But I think it's really important to also note that 739 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 4: when we're talking about building out solar, the US will 740 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 4: need somewhere on the order between five thousand and fifteen 741 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 4: thousand square miles of solar to power its portion of 742 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 4: the great according to some modelers, so five to fifteen 743 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 4: square miles. We have three hundred thousand square miles of 744 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 4: brown fields, degraded lands, salt contaminated agricultural lands. All to 745 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 4: say that I've often I feel like this conservation versus 746 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,479 Speaker 4: solar energy development is a false choice, because I think 747 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,399 Speaker 4: there is a path forward where we could keep many 748 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 4: of the lands that we value for their conservation benefits, 749 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 4: for their cultural resources, and find the places where the 750 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,879 Speaker 4: disturbed lands could be utilized because we have so much 751 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 4: of that already and we know that those projects don't 752 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 4: face any opposition. 753 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: Well, I want to say thank you so much. You 754 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: are so authoritative about this. It's been my great pleasure, truly, 755 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much. My thanks to Dustin mulvaney and 756 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: Hilary Angelo. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in 757 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: New York City, where produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, 758 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,240 Speaker 1: and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social 759 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the 760 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.