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Speaker 2: Mothman, I think is a great vehicle for sort of
Speaker 2: conveying you what you want to share with us in
Speaker 2: your book Messages from Mathman. A lot of books have
Speaker 2: been written about the circumstances around that event in West
Speaker 2: Virginia back in the sixties. Here your book looks at
Speaker 2: it from a different angle. I mean, a lot of
Speaker 2: people had premonitions and dreams, but they really didn't need
Speaker 2: the warnings walk us through it. What the message from
Speaker 2: Mathman is.
Speaker 3: Well, the message from Mathman would definitely be individual interpretation, right.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing about clairvoyance or mediumship or premonition
Speaker 3: kind of stuff is so often even the different different
Speaker 3: people that are bringing forth premonition or information about the
Speaker 3: future are often very different. And it has a lot
Speaker 3: to do with, in my opinion, how the individual that
Speaker 3: it is getting this information is interpreting it. But not
Speaker 3: only that, is how the information that the receiver is getting,
Speaker 3: the person that's supposed to get the message is also
Speaker 3: interpreting it. You know, no one said, at least not
Speaker 3: in what I've read and what other people have written
Speaker 3: on math man. No one said or front loaded that
Speaker 3: movement was there to warn us about the Silver Bridge collapse.
Speaker 3: You know, that was that interpretation much later. And that's
Speaker 3: what's interesting about a lot of these pre cognitive or
Speaker 3: premonition type interpretations is they don't often become there's not
Speaker 3: a lot of clarity until after the event occurs. You know,
Speaker 3: everybody has been or not everybody, but a lot of
Speaker 3: people of them studying Nurse Damas for you know, decades,
Speaker 3: if not a century or more, and oftentimes his quadrains
Speaker 3: and and the the way he writes about the future
Speaker 3: is so cryptic that, you know, the the cynics and
Speaker 3: I say the cynics, not the skeptics, But these cynics
Speaker 3: will come in and say, well, you can turn this
Speaker 3: into any kind of uh message that you want. It's
Speaker 3: just all about the interpretation. And I believe that at
Speaker 3: that point there is a little faith or a little
Speaker 3: internal guidance that that we have to rely on whenever
Speaker 3: we get information like that.
Speaker 2: Well, I can see what you mean is that people
Speaker 2: are seeing a giant mothman flying around in the sky.
Speaker 2: It's a terrible, terrifying experience, but it doesn't necessarily tell
Speaker 2: you don't drive on the on the bridge on this night, right, sure?
Speaker 3: Right? And it works the whole thing, especially with mav Man.
Speaker 3: Is I mean when you whenever I do an investigation,
Speaker 3: I look at it from a cold case standpoint when
Speaker 3: I do a paranormal investigation, because typically it's a cold
Speaker 3: case kind of thing, so I will boil down a
Speaker 3: lot of the superfluous information. When I wrote Roswell the
Speaker 3: after Action Report. To do that, I had to look
Speaker 3: at the nineteen ninety four release that the Air Force
Speaker 3: conducted their own investigation on their own agency and came
Speaker 3: out with an almost one thousand page document that was
Speaker 3: nothing but a bunch of gibbers. It was a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of fluff that some kernels could say, we did
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of work. We reviewed millions of documents
Speaker 3: and this is what we came up with. Do you agree?
Speaker 3: And that's not how you do an investigation. You know,
Speaker 3: you don't front load and prep your witnesses and the
Speaker 3: folks that are providing that testimony. So that's the real
Speaker 3: hard thing about Monckman and Mockman. If I wrote a report,
Speaker 3: a comprehensive, chronological, complete police report on Mockman, it would
Speaker 3: probably be twe pages long maybe, so a lot of
Speaker 3: what happened with Makman is very impactful, but it was sparse,
Speaker 3: There was no lot, and it was it wasn't a
Speaker 3: wide widespread phenomena at the time. But as books are written,
Speaker 3: as more articles are written, more people are looking at
Speaker 3: it and of course coming forward with those little things
Speaker 3: that I remember one time when I was driving down
Speaker 3: the start road, there was this dark thing that flew
Speaker 3: out and so then they jump on the bandwagon with
Speaker 3: the with the witnesses. So when I went in to
Speaker 3: do this book, that was the thing that I really
Speaker 3: looked at, was it took me down so many different
Speaker 3: rabbit trails and rabbit holes that it kind of turned
Speaker 3: into something else. Because this is not an isolated from
Speaker 3: online in West Virginia.
Speaker 2: At least one of those witnesses that you write about,
Speaker 2: the female newspaper reporter, her dream, her premonition was really
Speaker 2: pretty specific. I mean, it's got people drowning in water,
Speaker 2: you know, right, that's.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, And that was the thing about her. She worked,
Speaker 3: I remember ran she worked for anyway, it was it
Speaker 3: was the point pleasant register, if I remember ring and
Speaker 3: often you know, being a professional investigative reporter, you know
Speaker 3: that you don't want to include yourself and your reports. Yeah,
Speaker 3: in this case, she did. Once she spoke with Lauren Coleman,
Speaker 3: and Lauren Coleman was writing a book about it, and
Speaker 3: she shared her very pretty intense dream that she had
Speaker 3: about her experience as far as what she saw. And
Speaker 3: that was something really interesting because, like I said before,
Speaker 3: that normally reporters don't do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it would have been hard for anybody
Speaker 2: who had any of those experiences, either seeing Mothman or
Speaker 2: having the dreams of people drowning or indrid colder than
Speaker 2: men in black things that also happened in and around
Speaker 2: the Mothman phenomena, it'd be hard pressed to figure, Ah, well,
Speaker 2: here's what's going to happen. That bridge is going to collapse.
Speaker 2: But there is an example you have in your book
Speaker 2: that it did seem to be a more specific kind
Speaker 2: of a warning, and that's about Chernobyl share with us
Speaker 2: be kind of things that people were thinking and feeling
Speaker 2: and imagining leading up to the Chernobyl disaster. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, and that's one of those other things I threw
Speaker 3: in there a while ago. As far as the difference
Speaker 3: between skeptic and cynic, so I kind of always use
Speaker 3: a continuum way. For the far left is a true believer.
Speaker 3: No matter what you tell this person, they're going to
Speaker 3: believe the magnificent event, whatever that is, the supernatural event,
Speaker 3: you can't talk about it. Then on the other side,
Speaker 3: you had the cynic that doesn't believe in anything and
Speaker 3: rolls their eyes as soon as you bring it up. Well,
Speaker 3: a skeptic is going to float around there in the
Speaker 3: middle of someplace based on the evidence provided, based on
Speaker 3: the experience provided, and contemporary psychologists and psychiatrists and most
Speaker 3: people that study human behavior are going to say, in
Speaker 3: a case like Chernobyl, most of those people were very
Speaker 3: scared working there. You know, it was a pretty scary place,
Speaker 3: thinking about what you're dealing with, the heat that you're
Speaker 3: dealing with, and the fact that this equipment didn't always
Speaker 3: function the way it did. But in the back of
Speaker 3: their mind, like in the Aberfin coal disaster, everybody knew
Speaker 3: that there was some there was problems, and so you
Speaker 3: could say contemporarily that when these people would go to sleep,
Speaker 3: they would have dreams about these things that they were
Speaker 3: worrying about all day long. But with Chernobyl, the thing
Speaker 3: that was interesting is much like Makman, there's a large
Speaker 3: black creature. In some cases they talk about having red
Speaker 3: eyes being in around that area and very prominent in
Speaker 3: the plume once the reactor actually exploded, and so that
Speaker 3: was fascinating. There's several incidents like that, but you're right,
Speaker 3: the Turnover one's probably the closest.
Speaker 2: If I were to see a giant mock looking thing
Speaker 2: with red eyes, dark black, you know, flying around to
Speaker 2: the sky over me, you know, I'm not sure how
Speaker 2: to react. My my reaction might be I'm staying home
Speaker 2: for a couple of days. I'm not going anywhere, and
Speaker 2: my luck would be a plane crashes into my house.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, And in this case, I have to think
Speaker 3: about it in both cases.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 3: So in the case of the Silver Bridge, you're sitting
Speaker 3: there and the traffic is completely backed up on this
Speaker 3: bridge that was never made to hold this amount of
Speaker 3: cars that you know, it's almost a forty year old bridge,
Speaker 3: so cars have changed, the weight of cars have changed.
Speaker 3: And then it's Christmas and everybody's trying to get get
Speaker 3: home and traffic lights aren't working. As efficiently as they
Speaker 3: should be, sort of backs traffic up all the way
Speaker 3: across the bridgedge. And the design of the bridge was
Speaker 3: bad to begin with the cable because I mean, I mean,
Speaker 3: it spans two thousand feet over two thousand feet across there,
Speaker 3: and it's not put together by you know, solid cables.
Speaker 3: It's put together basically like chain links. They're not chained,
Speaker 3: but they're a type of couple that is designed to flex,
Speaker 3: and it basically has a pivot point on that and
Speaker 3: one of the pivot points under that weight snapped and
Speaker 3: that's that was a really unfortunate thing about the design
Speaker 3: of this bridge is any one thing would have brought
Speaker 3: that bridge down. Most of the most bridges the way
Speaker 3: they'll go, you know, just one failure point that's not
Speaker 3: going to bring the whole thing down. But in this
Speaker 3: case it did. And when this is happening is when
Speaker 3: some people said that they saw mofman kind of hovering
Speaker 3: around out there watching, so they kind of leave me
Speaker 3: away from that he was trying to warn us. Because
Speaker 3: he was trying to warn us, he just swoop around
Speaker 3: get everybody's attention. But in this case, the way it
Speaker 3: was described as he's kind of back off of a
Speaker 3: little bit up in the air and watching and as
Speaker 3: a witness seeing all this happen, probably the last thing
Speaker 3: you're thinking of is paying more attention to him, right,
Speaker 3: you know, people falling in in the water and just
Speaker 3: all of that just horrible.
Speaker 2: There's an example you use in the book what you
Speaker 2: call divine intervention, which sort of the flip side of
Speaker 2: these terrible things happening. Maybe it's coincidence, synchronicity, but there's
Speaker 2: an example you use from March nineteen fifty and Beatrice, Nebraska,
Speaker 2: at a church, the choir is supposed to get together
Speaker 2: and have a practice session share that story of what happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's one of the really really interesting ones.
Speaker 3: And like I said, from a real side from somebody
Speaker 3: that I try to put my cases together, write my
Speaker 3: cases in a way that would be presentable to a
Speaker 3: grand jury. So whenever I do a paranormal case, that's
Speaker 3: my goal is would I be embarrassed to walk into
Speaker 3: a grand jury and share this information with them. In
Speaker 3: this particular case nineteen fifties, and that was the West
Speaker 3: End Baptist Church in Beatrice, Nebraskan, and that night the
Speaker 3: choir of the church was supposed to practice at seven
Speaker 3: point fifteen. So I can't remember what his name was.
Speaker 3: The preacher of the church around four o'clock or so
Speaker 3: fires up the furnace and then locks up the church
Speaker 3: and heads home. He wants to heat heat the furnace up,
Speaker 3: eat the church up, so the when the choir is
Speaker 3: there that you know they'd be comfortable, and they're supposed
Speaker 3: to be there seven to fifteen. Well, nobody show us.
Speaker 3: Not a single one of the people in the choir
Speaker 3: showed up, and they had afterward they were asked later.
Speaker 3: Everybody had different reasons why, you know, some people were
Speaker 3: late making dinner, some people just didn't feel like it.
Speaker 3: Some people were watching a TV program and they it
Speaker 3: went long. But they were supposed to be there seven fifteen.
Speaker 3: At seven five, the entire church exploded. And the odds
Speaker 3: and that's what I look at. A lot of times
Speaker 3: people say, well, that's miraculous. Well they kind of the
Speaker 3: definition of miraculous is one in a million. So if
Speaker 3: it was a one in a million thing, that was
Speaker 3: a miraculous thing, and you could interpret it as you know,
Speaker 3: a divine intervention thing. And for the fact that not
Speaker 3: a single person from the choir showed up when they
Speaker 3: were supposed to, and that the whole church was leveled
Speaker 3: due to the natural gas explosion. That everybody in town
Speaker 3: heard every I mean, it was, it was, it was,
Speaker 3: It was serious news at the time. It was just
Speaker 3: it's a miraculous, miraculous case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just think that they must have been stunned
Speaker 2: when they realized what had happened, and that all of
Speaker 2: them had a different reason for not being there. It's
Speaker 2: not really an inner voice that told them not to be.
Speaker 2: There were a circumstance and.
Speaker 3: All of us have experienced that kind of thing where
Speaker 3: you know, let's say a car collision happens in front
Speaker 3: of us or behind us, and you start thinking, Wow,
Speaker 3: if I had not had that conversation, you know, longer
Speaker 3: than what I wanted it to be before I got
Speaker 3: into my car, I would have been right at that spote.
Speaker 3: I would have been in the middle of that collision
Speaker 3: or vice versa. You know, the could be light later
Speaker 3: and we we have that happened, But to have it
Speaker 3: happened to multiple people of one single incident, is it
Speaker 3: just makes you like I said that those two words,
Speaker 3: what if.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe Reverend Walter Klymple was a slave driver, cracking
Speaker 2: the whip, making his choir practice too much, and everybody
Speaker 2: just got tired of it and didn't show up.
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding, right, could have been you know, you
Speaker 3: don't know what the mechanism of this thing is.
Speaker 2: You do get into the butterfly effect in the book,
Speaker 2: and I think it's a good fit because you know,
Speaker 2: as you're saying there, you know, a car accident, you
Speaker 2: could have been in it if you hadn't left the
Speaker 2: house one minute earlier or later. The butterfly effect can
Speaker 2: have profound effects. Something very simple and tiny and little
Speaker 2: has profound effects all over the world. I mean that's
Speaker 2: not an exaggeration. It can be that way, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And you know, with the popularity of The Twister, the
Speaker 3: movie that just came out a couple of months ago,
Speaker 3: and when people are looking, you don't know what effects
Speaker 3: that came. They came out of a meteorologist, uh uh.
Speaker 3: And Edward lorenz Uh coined that back in that team
Speaker 3: the seventies, and you know, his whole thing was any
Speaker 3: kind of disturbance in the air, sims ripples just like
Speaker 3: a pebble in a pond. It is going to affect someplace.
Speaker 3: We just don't know what the magnitude of that effect
Speaker 3: is going to be.
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