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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. Welcome back to happen Here.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Sage and you can find my stuff on

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Speaker 2: my YouTube channel, Andrewism.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined once again by.

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Speaker 3: James getting no less a quid as we go, Behi, Andrew.

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Speaker 3: I'm excited to learn about what we're going to learn

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Speaker 3: about today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we're picking up where we left off by tackling

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Speaker 2: the Luddites of today. In our previous episode, we unravel

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Speaker 2: the story of Luodites who sit against the encroaching forces

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Speaker 2: of the industrial revolution and more specifically the abuses of

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Speaker 2: workers by profit seeking capitalists. They were challenging the world

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Speaker 2: view of lazy fair capitalism with this increase in amalgamation

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Speaker 2: of power, resources, and wealth, rationalized by its emphasis on progress. Today,

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Speaker 2: it seems this history as we've repeating itself as we

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Speaker 2: face a similar struggle against technological changes that come.

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Speaker 1: About to the detriment of workers.

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Speaker 2: As some tech has been used by tech companies in

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Speaker 2: various industries to drive down wages and worsen conditions for

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Speaker 2: common workers, say, for example, technological unemployment. For the rights

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Speaker 2: who once resist the encroachment machines would find their concerns

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Speaker 2: reflected in a modern world as a technological advanced ones

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Speaker 2: often come with the cost of those whose jobs can

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Speaker 2: be automated away. For instance, in the manufacturing industry, robots

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Speaker 2: and automated assembly lines of streamline production lead into increased

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Speaker 2: efficiency and lower costs for companies, but these efficiencies often

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Speaker 2: meant the displacement of human workers, and such as in manufacturing,

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Speaker 2: the ripple effects extend to various sectors like customer service, transportation,

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Speaker 2: and data analysis, and so there's this fere of job

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Speaker 2: displacement looms large. However, technological unemployment, which is the belief

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Speaker 2: that as technology advances, human jobs are at risk, potentially

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Speaker 2: dating to widespread unemployment, has been described by some economists

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Speaker 2: as a fallacy. Back in the early days of the

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Speaker 2: Industrial Revolution, when the advance of mechanization began transform in

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Speaker 2: various industries and with workers fear and automation would render

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Speaker 2: them job less and devalue their labor, the people took

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Speaker 2: a stand, but as time passed, new industries and job

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Speaker 2: opportunities emerged to replace some of the old ones, ultimately

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Speaker 2: absorbing that workforce. Fast forward to the twentieth century and

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Speaker 2: the rise of computers and automation technology reignited concerns about

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Speaker 2: technological unemployment, but again, new jobs were created in new industries.

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Speaker 1: Today.

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Speaker 2: The debate continues as artificial intelligence, robotics, and automation advance

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Speaker 2: at an unprecedented pace, and it remains to be seen

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Speaker 2: what the long term consequences of those technologies may be.

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Speaker 2: My position has really always been that we should be

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Speaker 2: working less anyway, but instead people are obsessed with creating

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Speaker 2: new jobs, even when they're unnecessary. See you know, of

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Speaker 2: course David Graeber is supposed jobs. But you know, even

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Speaker 2: if the idea of mass unemployment due to tech is

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Speaker 2: not true, if we end up replacing the jobs that

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Speaker 2: are e raised with new jobs. Whatever the case may be,

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Speaker 2: tech is nevertheless quite capable of destroying livelihoods, creating unintended consequences,

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Speaker 2: and further concentrating power in the hands of fewer and

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Speaker 2: fewer people. For every tech advance, whether that makes a

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Speaker 2: job more fulfilling and enjoyable, there are also those who

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Speaker 2: make it more tea us and grinding. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 2: tech can free us from some tasks. You know, accountants

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Speaker 2: have digital spreadsheets to make their lives much easier. For example,

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Speaker 2: writing is way easier now that the personal computers is

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Speaker 2: more common. But while technological progress can produce prosperity, there's

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Speaker 2: really no guarantee that the prosperity.

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Speaker 1: Will reach the workers.

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Speaker 2: In most cases, on the cut, it very clearly doesn't.

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Speaker 2: In fact, many of the benefits of the industrial revolution

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Speaker 2: were really not felt by the workers until decades later,

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Speaker 2: after many of them have been you know, crushed or

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Speaker 2: poisoned or killed or you know, died in a factory

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Speaker 2: fire or whatever they shut down when protesting, you know,

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Speaker 2: like that, they didn't see the benefits until much later on.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not like, you know, these things introduced

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Speaker 2: and boom, everybody benefits. I mean even now, not everybody

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Speaker 2: in the world is benefiting from you know, the computer age.

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Speaker 2: There are still many people, like for example, in the Congo,

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Speaker 2: who are endurance, slavery and staves like conditions in order

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Speaker 2: to you know, procure the materials necessary for the computer

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Speaker 2: age totally, and yet they're not seeing those benefits and

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Speaker 2: arranged we're seeing when they'll see the benefits that many

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Speaker 2: of us enjoy in various parts of the world, and

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Speaker 2: particularly that there was enjoy in the global North in

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Speaker 2: our relentless pursuit of progress and technological advancement as defined

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Speaker 2: by capitalism, we also end up losing our nature, our community,

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Speaker 2: and in many cases are craftsmanship. I mean remember John Booth,

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Speaker 2: the one who had said can you keep a secret?

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Speaker 1: Or so can I? He has other words?

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Speaker 2: You know that the new machinery might be man's chief

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Speaker 2: blessing himself his curse if society were differently constituted.

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Speaker 1: That's where I have to.

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Speaker 2: Bring in the one and only the ls I've spoken

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Speaker 2: about him before, of course, the Austrian philosopher, the theologia

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Speaker 2: and the sort of everything.

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Speaker 1: Guy Ivan Ilich. Oh, yeah, fun times, fun times. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He was a thinker ahead of his time. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's really strange in some of his positions, I think,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of his concepts resonate today in various movements.

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Speaker 2: One of the foundational concepts in the modern movement of

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Speaker 2: the growth is the concept of conviviality, which was redefined

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Speaker 2: and introduced in the context of our Tools in Ilish's

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Speaker 2: book Tools of Conviviality. Eligio's vision, as explored by the book,

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Speaker 2: is one in which technology serves humanity, not to plant it,

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Speaker 2: where convivial tools empower individuals and communities, fostering creativity and

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Speaker 2: autonomy while preventing the concentration of power in the hands

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Speaker 2: of the few. According to il conviviality is individual freedom

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Speaker 2: realized in personal interdependence. It's basically the ability of individuals

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Speaker 2: to interact and to interact creatively and autonomously with others

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Speaker 2: and the environment to satisfy their individual and collective needs.

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Speaker 2: Convivial tools are those which are robust and durable, preserve

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Speaker 2: or enhance ecosystems, level unequal power relationships, and give each

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Speaker 2: person who uses them the greatest opportunity to enrich the

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Speaker 2: environment with the fruits of their vision. And a convivial

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Speaker 2: society is one in which tools, which, according to ilag

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Speaker 2: includes physical hardware, productive institutions, and productive systems. So tools

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Speaker 2: will be factories, hospitals, schools, farms, all of those things

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Speaker 2: are being included in his definition of tools, and a

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Speaker 2: convivial society is one of which those tools operate on

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Speaker 2: the humans scale and save the people instead of rulers.

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Speaker 2: The idea of convivial tools really challenges us to view

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Speaker 2: technologies and means to enhance our lives rather than displace

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Speaker 2: our livelihoods. It's a call to harness innovation for the

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Speaker 2: bettering of society instead of the perpetuation of radical monopolies,

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Speaker 2: which I spoke about in a previous it can happen

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Speaker 2: here episode. I think a Lodites like John Booth would

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Speaker 2: have certainly appreciated that message, yea, and to the rights

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Speaker 2: of today certainly do because yeah, I'm not the first

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Speaker 2: nor the only person to see lessons to be learned

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Speaker 2: from the la Lite movement. The concept of a Neolodite

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Speaker 2: movement has been embraced by a variety of folks who

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Speaker 2: may or may not understand what the original Latite movement

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Speaker 2: was about. Like, you know, you have these primitivists who

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Speaker 2: embrace the Neolotte cause because I think it means hate

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Speaker 2: and technology, and you have the anarchists and the trade

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Speaker 2: unionists and the environmentalists. We're looking more at the label,

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Speaker 2: organized and roots of the original Latite movement, and of

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Speaker 2: course even see echoes of you know, Ogloodite action in

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Speaker 2: the vandalism against self driving cars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: The Neolodite movement is composed of activists, workers, scholars, and

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Speaker 2: social critics who stand against the predominant worldview that unbridled

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Speaker 2: technology represents progress, point ins key, then critiques, and in

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Speaker 2: some cases actual action against technologies and tech companies who

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Speaker 2: desecrate our planet and our society. Philosopher Lewis Mumford, who

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Speaker 2: had written the Myth of the Machine Pentagonic Power, reminds

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Speaker 2: us that technology encompasses more than just physical objects. It

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Speaker 2: also includes the techniques of operation and the social organizations

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Speaker 2: that make up particular technology work.

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Speaker 1: Technology reflects our worldview.

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Speaker 2: The forms of technology we embrace, whether they be machines, techniques,

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Speaker 2: or social structures, are seemply rooted in our perception of life, death,

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Speaker 2: human potential, and the relationships between humans and nature.

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Speaker 1: Our choice of technology, in many ways, mirrors.

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Speaker 2: Our outlook on the world. That outlook in the modern

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Speaker 2: world is shaped by a rather mechanistic approach to life,

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Speaker 2: characterized by rational thinking, efficiency, delitarianism, scientific detachment, and a

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Speaker 2: belief in humanities, ownership and supremacy over nature. That's a yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're going to text like the military industrial complex, and

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Speaker 2: they weren't sprawl. Honestly, in a sense, the old ltites

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Speaker 2: kind of had it easy. Not I mean, obviously their

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Speaker 2: conditions were horrible. When I say they had it easy,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's in the sense that their machines could

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Speaker 2: be destroyed by their sledgehammers.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, what technology is a lot more ephemoral.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's in the cloud.

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Speaker 2: It's as nebulous as microplastics in the soil, the water,

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Speaker 2: and the breast milk. I mean, it's everywhere, and it's

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Speaker 2: integrated into everything. It's like, where do you even begin?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: In the book When Technology Wounds by Psychologists Childish Clendening

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Speaker 2: by psychologists Chellis Clendening, she studied technology survivors, people who

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Speaker 2: had suffered injury or illness in recent years after being

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Speaker 2: exposed to various toxic technologies in their homes and workplaces,

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Speaker 2: whether nuclear, radiation, pesticides, asbestos, both control devices, or drugs,

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Speaker 2: and covered how they had begun to question not only

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Speaker 2: the processes that maimed them, but the world that indifferently

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Speaker 2: forced those processes on them under the guise of progress.

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Speaker 2: Glendoning saw these victims as the basis of a new

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Speaker 2: bloodlight movement struggling against what has been called the Second

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Speaker 2: Industrial what has been called the Second Industrial Revolution. Alongside

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Speaker 2: thinkers like Lewis Mumford and Ivan Ilich, those survivors have

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Speaker 2: gone on to create groups such as Asbestos Victims of

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Speaker 2: America Aspartame, Victims of their Friends, Citizens Against Pesticide Misuse,

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Speaker 2: DALK and Shield Information Network des action In, National National

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Speaker 2: Association of Atomic Veterans, National Committee for Victims of Human Research,

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Speaker 2: National Toxics Campaign, and the VDT Coalition, of course are

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Speaker 2: based in the US, and there are also actives groups

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Speaker 2: like earth First that could could have been classified under

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Speaker 2: the Neolotte cause and Earthful strategy was to stop environmental

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Speaker 2: intrusions by.

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Speaker 1: Any means available, legal and otherwise.

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Speaker 2: So they would be slashing engines, slashing tires, disabling engines,

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Speaker 2: blocking roads. Most famously, they would drilled spikes into trees

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Speaker 2: and wilderness forests to prevent them from being logged by chainsaws.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But you know, while all these movements and organizations are

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Speaker 2: happening in the Western world, it really wasn't just the

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Speaker 2: Western world where this is happening. A positive undercurrent of

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Speaker 2: the right spirit has surged where indigenous peoples have led

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Speaker 2: the charges against the incursions of industrialism. Quncities are mainly

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Speaker 2: resisting the machines and projects from dustrialization, but also pushing

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Speaker 2: back against its cultural impact. Peasants and farmers staunchally rejecting

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Speaker 2: participation in the various development initiatives imposed upon them by

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Speaker 2: compliant governments, often in the inence, often under the influence

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Speaker 2: of entities like the World Bank or the US State Department.

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Speaker 2: For example, during the early nineteen eighties, some farmers in

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Speaker 2: Mali took a stand against the construction of dams and

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Speaker 2: dykes for a rice growing program that they wanted no

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Speaker 2: part of. Other communities elsewhere have rallied to hold dam

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Speaker 2: projects that threatened to submerge their ancestral lands, and some

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Speaker 2: of them successful, as seen of the villagers who protested

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Speaker 2: the Narmada Dam in India in the early nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 2: and others have faced more daunting challenges, like the people

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Speaker 2: of eastern Java who protested against the Neper Irrigation Dam

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Speaker 2: and faced deadly consequences at the hands of Indonesian security

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Speaker 2: forces in nineteen ninety three. Intergous tribes have also organized

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Speaker 2: to combat deforestation and road building projects that encroached upon

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Speaker 2: their territories. The Chipco tree huggan movement in India during

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies and eighties famously succeeded in stopping government

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Speaker 2: clear cutting efforts and similar projects of echoed across the globe,

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Speaker 2: from Malaysia to Australia, Brazil to Costa Rica, Solomon Islands,

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Speaker 2: Indonesia and beyond. Traditional fishermen in many regions, such as

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Speaker 2: the Indians of continent, Malaysia, Indonesia, and multiple ports along

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Speaker 2: the Pacific coast of South America including Ecuador and Columbia,

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Speaker 2: have also taken action against industrial fish and fleets encroaching

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Speaker 2: on their waters and jeopardizing their livelihoods. In some cases,

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Speaker 2: these protests may have involved the destruction of machinery, but sabotage,

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Speaker 2: you know, is not unheard of, like in the case

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Speaker 2: of a high tech chemical plant in Thailand in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six. The driving force behind these actions really mirrors

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Speaker 2: to ethos you know, as they share this full und

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Speaker 2: desire to preserve the traditional ways of life and livelihood

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Speaker 2: in the face of industrial capitalisms relentless pull towards a

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Speaker 2: wage and market system. And then, of course, outside these

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Speaker 2: movers and shakers, these underground activists, there are also you know,

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Speaker 2: the philosophical lirites. Like the aforementioned illage. The Neola spectrum

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Speaker 2: is more diverse and intriguing than one might imagine. While

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Speaker 2: it may not have crystallized into a more formal movement

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Speaker 2: with clear representatives, as is expected of movements these days,

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Speaker 2: it unites a wide array of individuals to share common

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Speaker 2: awakening from the allure of unchecked technology and resist various

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Speaker 2: aspects of the industrial monoculture. Perhaps in the connections between

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Speaker 2: these separate groups strengthen we'd see a greater recognition of

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Speaker 2: the interconnected challenges in this grand tapestry of all evolving world.

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Speaker 2: But the thing is to address the challenges posed by

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Speaker 2: these technologies. It's not enough to merely regulate or eliminate

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Speaker 2: in visual items like pesticides or nuclear weapons. What's required

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Speaker 2: as a profound shift in our thinking about humanity and

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Speaker 2: in our relationship to life itself. We need to craft

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Speaker 2: a new worldview that paves the way for a different

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Speaker 2: way of interacting with our world, our technologies, and our

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Speaker 2: fellow human beings.

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Speaker 1: We need to reconsider a.

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Speaker 2: Place in the ground scheme of things and to imagine

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Speaker 2: a world where harmony and balance take precedence of a

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Speaker 2: domination and control. In Notes toward a Neulart Manifesto written

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety also by Cheldish, Clendoning, The author outlines

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Speaker 2: three core principles and four prescriptions that could drive the

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Speaker 2: Neulrite movement. In terms of principles, firstly, and I suppose

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Speaker 2: most essentially to addressing the misconception, Neulorites are not anti technology.

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Speaker 2: Actually says technology is intrinsic to human creativity and culture.

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Speaker 2: But what they oppose are the kinds of technologies that

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Speaker 2: are at root destructive of human lives and communities. The

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Speaker 2: next principle two is that all technologies are political. Quote

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Speaker 2: a social critic Gerrymander rights in four argumented Elimination of Television,

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Speaker 2: a book I read some years ago, by the way

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Speaker 2: that a Ferminian to revisit. But continuing the quote, technologies

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Speaker 2: are not neutral tools that can be used for good

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Speaker 2: or evil dependent on who uses them. They are entities

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Speaker 2: that have been consciously structured to reflect and serve specific,

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Speaker 2: powerful interests in specific historical situations. The technology is created

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Speaker 2: by mass technological society. Are those that serve the perpetuation

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Speaker 2: of mass technological society. They tend to be structured for

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Speaker 2: short term efficiency, ease of production, distribution, marketing and profit potential,

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Speaker 2: or for war making. As a result, they tend to

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Speaker 2: create rigid social systems and institutions that people do not

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Speaker 2: understand and cannot change or control. The last principle three

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Speaker 2: is that the personal view of technology is dangerously limited.

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Speaker 2: Glendening argues that the oftenhood message, but I couldn't live

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Speaker 2: without my mood processor.

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Speaker 1: Because of course she's right in this. You know, years

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Speaker 1: and yeares ago.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you have my word automatic typewriter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but this oftenhod message that I couldn't live up

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Speaker 2: my word process. So, and I guess you could substitute

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Speaker 2: that for smartphone, not computer. That message denies the wider

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Speaker 2: consequences of widespread use of computers, for example, the toxic

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Speaker 2: contamination of workers and electronic plants, or the certifying of

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Speaker 2: corporate power through exclusive access to new information and databases.

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Speaker 2: As Manda points out, producers and disseminators of technologies tend

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Speaker 2: to introduce their creations and upbeat utopian terms. You know,

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Speaker 2: pesticides will increase yields to feed a hungry planet. Nuclear

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Speaker 2: energy will be too deep, too cheap to meter.

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Speaker 1: Et cetera.

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Speaker 2: And of course you know you have to throw in

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Speaker 2: that potshot had nuclear energy. It's very very twentieth century

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Speaker 2: coded text. Yeah, however, quote. Learning to critique technology demands

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Speaker 2: fully examining its sociological context, economic gratifications, and political meanings.

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Speaker 2: It involves asking not just what is gained for what

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Speaker 2: is lost and by who. It also looking at the

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Speaker 2: introduction of technologies from the perspective not only a few

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Speaker 2: in use, but of their impact on other living beings,

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Speaker 2: natural systems, and the environment. And then there's the neololide program,

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Speaker 2: which loses me a bit at some points, even where

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Speaker 2: I may agree with some of their principles, and you know,

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Speaker 2: you might say that's a sign of my propagandized mind

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Speaker 2: in our technological society.

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Speaker 1: But I'll leave you to be the judge of that.

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Speaker 2: Here's what Glendening explicitly proposes one, as I moved toward

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Speaker 2: dealing with the consequences of modern technologies and preventing further

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Speaker 2: destruction of life, the new Lolite movement should favor the

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Speaker 2: dismantling of nuclear technologies, chemical technologies, genetic engineering technologies, television,

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Speaker 2: electromagnetic technologies, and computer technologies, which, according to them, you know,

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Speaker 2: according to her Coales, disease and death create dangerous me

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Speaker 2: to gens. In case of television functions, as a centralized

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Speaker 2: I'm controlling force, poisons.

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Speaker 1: The environment, all these different things.

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Speaker 2: And I mean I gets some of the justifications for

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Speaker 2: some of these technologies, right, Yeah, of course, disease, death,

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Speaker 2: you know, pollution, social issue is right, yeah, But I

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Speaker 2: at same time, I don't believe in through and I

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Speaker 2: was entire sciences and technologies.

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Speaker 1: Who will see like that?

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Speaker 2: You know, it feels like it feels like a very

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Speaker 2: myopic view being presented on some of these texts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess this was before really the

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Speaker 3: decentralization of some of the means of dissemination of information

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Speaker 3: that happened kind of later on with things like some

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Speaker 3: parts of the Internet. I don't want to say by

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Speaker 3: any means of the Internet is decentralized, but at least

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Speaker 3: the promise of that which we occasionally see deliver as well, right,

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Speaker 3: Like if you saw today that I was just watching

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Speaker 3: a video of the Yeppe Gay in Syria that the

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Speaker 3: people in Rajaba like talking about the importance of women

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Speaker 3: in the revolution in me and and like just occasionally

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Speaker 3: the internet or technology gives us the thing they were

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Speaker 3: supposed to give us, a disability to connect without barriers. Absolutely,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, like you said that that's the computer or

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Speaker 3: the cell phone and that was recorded on or whatever

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Speaker 3: happened because somebody somebody in the congo and in horrific

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Speaker 3: conditions and the DC had to dig out some rare

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Speaker 3: earth chemical and then got paid next to nothing and

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Speaker 3: their ancestral homeland was ruined by some rabid company that

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Speaker 3: makes billions of dollars and pays people like shit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean, I absolutely agree that the supply

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Speaker 2: side of a lot of these technologies need to change drastically. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and also the you know, just the supply gene as

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Speaker 2: a whole, you know, from the raw materials to the

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Speaker 2: finished product and how it gets to us. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that might mean no more of certain technologies, or it

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Speaker 2: might mean a different approach, but it really remains to

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Speaker 2: be seen. We really haven't tried other approaches because you know,

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Speaker 2: we live under this capitalist hegemony. The next step in

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Speaker 2: the program to the New Rite movement should favor a

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Speaker 2: search for new technological forms and the creation of technologies

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Speaker 2: by the people directly involved in their use, not by scientists,

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Speaker 2: engineers and entrepreneurs who gain financially from mass production and

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Speaker 2: distribution of the inventions. I don't know little about the

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Speaker 2: context in which their technologies are used. I don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: believe in, you know, splitting it down the middle like that,

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Speaker 2: as if you know, scientists and engineers are not going

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Speaker 2: to be the people that are directly involved in their use.

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Speaker 1: And in some cases that's true.

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Speaker 2: But another case is, you know, you know, people who

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Speaker 2: are using the pros sometimes the people who invented it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, iterated on that to whatnot?

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Speaker 3: Like when I think about before there were three D

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Speaker 3: printing weapons in a revution in the amber, they were

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Speaker 3: three D printing press theses because land minds are so

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Speaker 3: common there, right, and so like for those people where

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Speaker 3: the engineer is a person whose brother or sister or

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Speaker 3: non binary sibling or what have you needs a leg,

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Speaker 3: and so they have iterated or designed a leg, and

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Speaker 3: like that person is very much both like benefiting from

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Speaker 3: the end use and doing the engineering exactly.

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Speaker 2: I get this is kind of like, you know, a

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Speaker 2: screed against the Ivory tower types.

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Speaker 1: But yes, I don't think that reflects on you know,

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Speaker 1: all of.

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Speaker 2: The or even most of the scientists and engineers. A

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Speaker 2: lot of engineers on the ground, a lot of you know,

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Speaker 2: barefoot scientists as the expression is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Nick, when we talk about things like permaculture

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Speaker 3: or the things we talked about before, like, some of

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Speaker 3: that is a science too, right. We have a thesis

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Speaker 3: and we test it and we prove it, and we

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Speaker 3: keep iterating on it like it's a hypothesis, I should say, Like,

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Speaker 3: and that's certainly a sign which is rooted in a

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Speaker 3: place and people and respect for the environment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the manifesto goes a little bit further

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Speaker 2: on this particular point. You know, she's advocating for the

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Speaker 2: creation of technologies that are of a scale and structure

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Speaker 2: that makes them understandable to the people who use them

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Speaker 2: and are affected by them. She's advocating for the creation

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Speaker 2: of technology is built with a high degree of flexibility,

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Speaker 2: so that you do want to impose a rigid and

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Speaker 2: iror woosibile imprint on their users. And she's advocating for

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Speaker 2: the creation of technologies are foster independence from technological addiction

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Speaker 2: and promise political freedom, economic justice, and ecological balance.

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Speaker 1: They are I can't disagree, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I'm down with that.

401
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Speaker 1: I'm absolutely down with advocating for that.

402
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

403
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Speaker 2: The third point in the program, she says, we favor

404
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Speaker 2: the creation of technologies in which politics, morality, ecology, and

405
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Speaker 2: technics are merged for the benefits of life on Earth.

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Speaker 2: For example, community based energy sources utilizing solar, wind and

407
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Speaker 2: water technologies, organic biological technologies and agriculture, engineering, architecture, art, medicine, transportation,

408
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: and defense, conflict resolution technologies which emphasize cooperation, understanding, and

409
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Speaker 2: continuity of relationship, and decentralized social technologies which encourage participation, responsibility,

410
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Speaker 2: and empowerment. Now you know, I'm the solar punk guy.

411
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Speaker 2: I'm the you know, the anarchists on you tube whatever.

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Speaker 1: You got me on these.

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Speaker 2: You know, I agree with all of these obviously, But

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Speaker 2: what I find interesting is that this list seems to

415
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Speaker 2: ignore how, you know, the technology is being advocated here

416
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Speaker 2: are linked to.

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Speaker 1: The previous technologies that would just be in decride.

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Speaker 2: You know, like in one section she's talking about, you know,

419
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Speaker 2: a fan of these chemical technologies, but chemistry is an

420
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Speaker 2: inevitable component of the biological technology advocating for are You're

421
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Speaker 2: saying that you don't like computer technologies, but when you're

422
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Speaker 2: talking about like solar wind and water energy, which to.

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Speaker 1: Be fair, can be low tech too. Yeah, there is usually.

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Speaker 2: Some involvement of a computer in those energy systems. So

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Speaker 2: I think there's sights inconsistency there, But I don't know,

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Speaker 2: what do you think?

427
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think yeah, like we can't sort of yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: sometimes we can't say that to like you say, to

429
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Speaker 3: a degree, all of these systems will require a technology,

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Speaker 3: and like, I suppose we start to get into like

431
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Speaker 3: what is the technology right before we get too far,

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Speaker 3: and then I think that's probably a question worth asking.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I think it's easy to throw the maybe

434
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 3: out of bar water. I suppose.

435
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

436
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: I mean, like like Momford it said, technology is more

437
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: than just psical objects, it's also techniques of operation organizations.

438
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: That reflects a wild view.

439
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so I suppose, as you said before, right, Like,

440
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 3: it's what I think about often. It's like what we

441
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: need to change is the way we see the world,

442
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 3: and then the other stuff, well we can change.

443
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: In a MIDI will fall into place.

444
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think again, I'm gonna get back. So I

445
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 3: was just in ros Java for the last few weeks.

446
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: But one of the things that I heard from everyone there,

447
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: right from like and not just from like people in

448
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 3: the women's movement, but also from like random guy in

449
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 3: the market who I'm having tea with is like that

450
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 3: this idea that we can't can't decolonize the country until

451
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: we declonize our family, and the notion that like women

452
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 3: were the first colonized group of people, which and so

453
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 3: like if we can't do gender equality, what you know,

454
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: what are we doing? What we can't Why why we

455
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 3: find this revolution to liberate our entry when we can't

456
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: liberate our spouse, daughter or what have you. So definitely, yeah,

457
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: it's just it's a very powerful I know it's not

458
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 3: like as fun as taking a sledgehammer to a cotton mill,

459
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: but like if we if we replicate that kind of

460
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: extractive extractive capitalism is what makes the supply side of

461
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 3: these things so bad, and it's what also leads us

462
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 3: to think about using them in a way that can

463
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: extract the most value from the worker. And so I

464
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 3: would absolutely say that, you know, the break the frame

465
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: in your mind.

466
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's a good point.

467
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: And it's funny, as you mentioned, you know, as as

468
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: fun as you know, smashing a cotton a cotton mill

469
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: or whatever.

470
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: It made me think that you know, perhaps.

471
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: In a revolutionary society, I guess society.

472
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: You may see.

473
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: Therapeutic rooms where people can smash out some of their

474
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: last frustrations against the capitalist system.

475
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: Yea, consequences they have left for them to fix.

476
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to get that out before you you take

477
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: that out on.

478
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: Other go and rewild or something. You know, you have

479
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: to get that energy out.

480
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yea, yeah, remove the toxicity. I like

481
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 3: that place where you can take that anger out.

482
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: Right.

483
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: So finally, the fourth and final element in the program,

484
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: she says that we favor the development of a life

485
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: enhancing worldview in Western technological societies. We opened in still

486
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: a perception of life, death and human potential, and technological

487
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: societies that will integrate the human need for creative expression,

488
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: spiritual experience in community with the capacity for rational thought

489
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: and functionality. We perceive the human role not as the

490
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: dominator of other species in planetary biology, but as integrated

491
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: into the natural world with appreciation for the sacredness of

492
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: all life. We foresee a sustainable future for humanity if

493
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: and when Western technological societies restructure their mechanistic projections and

494
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: foster the creation of machines, techniques, and social organizations to

495
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: respect both human dignity and the nature's wholeness and progressing towards.

496
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: Such a transition.

497
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: We are aware that we have nothing to lose except

498
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: a way of living that leads the destruction.

499
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: Of all life. We have a world to gain. And

500
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: coote word that was that.

501
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: Was a nice nice, a nice very rhetorical flair at

502
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: the end.

503
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's.

504
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: I mean, in my opinion, coming to a close here,

505
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: the neololites a.

506
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: Hits and a miss. They hit a lot more than

507
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: they miss. There's things I have some slight.

508
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: Quibbles with, and I really, of course I have to

509
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: give them credit for doing a lot more to investigate

510
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: and confront technology than the vast majority of people. I mean,

511
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: they're asking the right questions, questions that you don't see

512
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: being asked at all, you know. See, you get these

513
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: announcements for new technologies, new innovations, new techniques.

514
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: New whatever.

515
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: It's always just like you know, marketing and advertising, and

516
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: then it's just implemented. There's no say of people, there's

517
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: no ad raising questions about what are the consequences of this?

518
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: Be ten years on the line, twenty years on the line,

519
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: fifty years on the line, one hundred years on the line.

520
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: You know, yeah.

521
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the lessons of letters are very clear. Technology

522
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: should serve humanity, not the other way around.

523
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

524
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: I think that's that's a key take home, Like, Yeah,

525
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: it's there to make our lives better. We don't have

526
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 3: to not to allow us lands more exploited.

527
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, landscape is vast and it's constantly evolving. But the

528
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: principles of the lights and the vision of convivial tools,

529
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: I think they can offer us some guidance. And I

530
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: hope you're way able to take that away from this

531
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: two part too. Yeah, and that's all I have for today.

532
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: Great.

533
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: Thanks you follow me on YouTube, aurism support and patroon

534
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 2: Slash sent Drew. Thanks James for being part of this.

535
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: I thank you. That was good. I enjoyed it.

536
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: This has been It could happen here, Peace. It could

537
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. For

538
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

539
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

540
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

541
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts.

542
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

543
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

544
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening,