Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Max,
Speaker 1: and today we're talking crisis proofing your finances with Michelle Singletary. Yeah, Joel.
Speaker 1: Michelle Singletary is an award winning personal finance columnist for
Speaker 1: The Washington Post. She's also a frequent contributor to NPR
Speaker 1: and She She regularly appears on CNN and has also
Speaker 1: appeared on NBC's Today Show. On CBS is The Early
Speaker 1: Show as well. And Michelle She She's written multiple books
Speaker 1: on personal finance, and her latest book, What to Do
Speaker 1: with Your Money When Crisis Hits, was just published last month.
Speaker 1: Not only is it an incredible resource for folks who
Speaker 1: find themselves in difficult times right now, but it's also
Speaker 1: just chock full of practical money advice, uh that you
Speaker 1: know that we believe everyone should be incorporating into their lives.
Speaker 1: It's kind of the financial advice that your grandma would
Speaker 1: approve of, right is that We're excited to get to
Speaker 1: talk to Michelle Singletary today and learn more about our books.
Speaker 1: So Michelle, thank you for joining us today. Oh, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Michelle. We are so
Speaker 1: glad to have you. You are a personal finance icon,
Speaker 1: I would say this, don't that sounds so old? No, No,
Speaker 1: it's just because you've been doing it so well for
Speaker 1: long enough, and you're not You're not old. You've got
Speaker 1: plenty of years left in year to like establish that
Speaker 1: personal finance yon status even more. But but hey, so Michelle,
Speaker 1: the first question we ask anyone who comes on the show.
Speaker 1: Matt and I we like craft beer something we're into,
Speaker 1: and we drink a craft beer on most episodes. But
Speaker 1: for us, it's something that we're willing to splurge on
Speaker 1: in the here and now while we're also trying to
Speaker 1: do a really good job of saving and investing for
Speaker 1: the future. So, yeah, do you have something like that
Speaker 1: that a splurge or craft beer equivalent? Okay, so this
Speaker 1: is not going to go over, but my hobby is
Speaker 1: saving money. So if you ask, like my husband and
Speaker 1: my kids what I splurg on, they would just roll there.
Speaker 1: I think probably multiple Scrabble dictionaries maybe the only thing.
Speaker 1: I just don't have a lot of things that I
Speaker 1: really want to be honest, I know it's terrible, but
Speaker 1: I just think multiple scrabble dictionaries that's the I mean
Speaker 1: to me, that sounds excravagant, like I would never buy that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, I think I get it. I
Speaker 1: have a mini one and a big one, but I
Speaker 1: M I just don't. You know, it's so interesting you
Speaker 1: ask that, because when it comes time for holidays or
Speaker 1: Christmas or my birthday or anniversary, my kids and my
Speaker 1: husband like, go, what do you want? And I just
Speaker 1: can't think of anything because I just I'm so comfortable
Speaker 1: in my skin, and I'm comfortable with the things that
Speaker 1: I do for people as enjoyment. And I know I
Speaker 1: don't want it to sound so pious, but when you
Speaker 1: don't come from a lot and you just spend your
Speaker 1: whole life trying to create financial security, when you get secured,
Speaker 1: that's sort of the gift itself. And I just I
Speaker 1: don't want any jewelry or clothes, or a certain kind
Speaker 1: of car, or even craft beer. I don't really drink,
Speaker 1: but if I did, it would be craft beer. Um.
Speaker 1: And I just don't want for anything that's awesome. I
Speaker 1: think that that says a lot about who you are
Speaker 1: as a person. And I mean, and I picked up
Speaker 1: on something there too. You mentioned how just your ability
Speaker 1: to help others, And I think oftentimes when you are
Speaker 1: comfortable when you are in a position of just where
Speaker 1: your finances are solid like that, oftentimes you can look
Speaker 1: to other people and find ways to enrich their lives.
Speaker 1: That's certainly something that you've done over the years. You've
Speaker 1: been writing just great money content now for the Washington
Speaker 1: was for years. You know, can you tell some of
Speaker 1: like the early Michelle singletary story, what got you interested
Speaker 1: in money in the first place, and then you know
Speaker 1: what spurred you on to actually write about it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I was. I came to live with my grandmother,
Speaker 1: who we called Big Bama, when I was four, and
Speaker 1: there were five of us who ended up she took in,
Speaker 1: so my older sister who was eight, I was four.
Speaker 1: As I said, I had a sister who was three,
Speaker 1: and grand brothers who were just under two, and so, um,
Speaker 1: we came to live with my grandmother. And my grandfather,
Speaker 1: although a good guy, just had you know, he had
Speaker 1: a drinking problem, so he didn't always come home. He
Speaker 1: didn't always come home with his money, and so my
Speaker 1: grandmother had to make do caring for us with the
Speaker 1: money that she earned as a nursing assistant in a hospital.
Speaker 1: And my grandmother also didn't take the welfare cash payments
Speaker 1: because she was just so proud and she didn't want
Speaker 1: them in the house and telling her what she couldn't
Speaker 1: couldn't have, and so just her salary she raised us.
Speaker 1: And I just I learned at her feet. I mean,
Speaker 1: my grandmother if she held a penny Lincoln with screens
Speaker 1: and she and the thing that I learned from her
Speaker 1: is that she never apologized for what she couldn't buy us.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when you grow up poor and your
Speaker 1: parents can give you, they just feel always so sorry
Speaker 1: about that, and you pick up on that as a child.
Speaker 1: She never felt sorry that she couldn't buy his brand
Speaker 1: name sneakers, or we didn't have a lot of clothes
Speaker 1: and things like that, because she just said, listen, this
Speaker 1: is all I can afford and we you need to
Speaker 1: be satisfied with that, and I need to be satisfied
Speaker 1: with that. And that's what I picked up for my grandmother.
Speaker 1: So now fast forward, I'm working for the Baltimore Evening
Speaker 1: Sun covering you know, comps and county government, and the
Speaker 1: business editor, who's a female, uh woman, came up to me.
Speaker 1: Uh it was a Patricia Fanning. Um. She said, you
Speaker 1: know listen, I'm trying to rebuild the business section, and
Speaker 1: I want young people, I want blocks, I want women. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, she just wanted to create a diverse staff
Speaker 1: because back in the day, the Business section was all about,
Speaker 1: you know, just business and investing, and it was just's
Speaker 1: just be clear, it was just white guys, right, older
Speaker 1: white guys, and oftentimes it was people towards the end
Speaker 1: of their career. That's it was a comfortable place. You
Speaker 1: didn't have to work weekend, you didn't have to work holidays,
Speaker 1: and so it was kind of a place you when
Speaker 1: you did good work, but you would kind of on
Speaker 1: your way out to be tied. And when she asked me,
Speaker 1: I thought trying to tell me something. She said, no, no, dear,
Speaker 1: And so I went to work for the Business section.
Speaker 1: And then because of my work for the Evening Sun,
Speaker 1: I got noticed by the Post. They offered me a position.
Speaker 1: I took it. And as I'm I'm very baltimorean, so
Speaker 1: very down the earth, and I go to Washington News
Speaker 1: or and where people are having these power lunches and
Speaker 1: I'm bringing my bag lunch to work, eating at my desk,
Speaker 1: and you were like, you want to go out to lunch.
Speaker 1: It was like, you people are insane all this money
Speaker 1: that y'all spending or eating and things. And I would
Speaker 1: just talk a lot about saving and the things that
Speaker 1: my grandmother taught me. And these people are looking at
Speaker 1: me like where did they get this country bumpkin? And
Speaker 1: then my business editor said, you know, you tell all
Speaker 1: these stories about your grandmother and how you got you
Speaker 1: were raised and money issues, you how to just write
Speaker 1: a column about that. We've never had anything like that
Speaker 1: in the business section, just a personal finance column about
Speaker 1: what it's like to be raised, you know, African American
Speaker 1: in Baltimore, any city. And I wrote that first column.
Speaker 1: It was called Big Mama's Savings Grace I'll Never Forget.
Speaker 1: And at that time, you know, we weren't into like
Speaker 1: instant messaging and email, so people were actually sent letters.
Speaker 1: They've got so many bags of letters that it was
Speaker 1: just unheard of that somebody in the business section was
Speaker 1: getting all these letters from all across the country. People
Speaker 1: had picked up the column from different sites, and um,
Speaker 1: they were just like, oh my gosh, you're writing for me.
Speaker 1: And they understood that that I was a black female,
Speaker 1: but they were like, yeah, I had a grandmother like that,
Speaker 1: and she was Jewish or I had you know, a
Speaker 1: pop up like that, and it just that's sort of
Speaker 1: how I got into this space of personal finance, just
Speaker 1: by living among my peers. The things that my grandmother
Speaker 1: taught me about many. Wow, your grandma sounds like such
Speaker 1: an incredible woman, And yeah, can you share maybe like
Speaker 1: some of the I love what what you mentioned when
Speaker 1: you're talking about like to not be ashamed of the
Speaker 1: fact that you can't spend money on certain things. What
Speaker 1: else did she teach you that you still live by
Speaker 1: today or that it's still just incredibly important principles for you? Well,
Speaker 1: oh so much. It's just like, um well, the one
Speaker 1: thing she taught me that I have lived by. So
Speaker 1: my grandmother taught me that the moment you get your
Speaker 1: first paycheck, I don't care what is the what is
Speaker 1: thought if you get it in cash or a paycheck,
Speaker 1: you put aside a certain percentage of that check or
Speaker 1: that you know to post every single time you get
Speaker 1: a check. And I started working on it's about fourteen.
Speaker 1: I was a mentor tutor, um so some other children. Uh,
Speaker 1: and so from that very first check, she taught me
Speaker 1: how to put somebody aside, whether it be ten percent
Speaker 1: or twenty She's like, even if it's just the dollar,
Speaker 1: every piece of money that crosses your palm, you shave
Speaker 1: off her peace for saving. And so when I graduated
Speaker 1: from University of Maryland College Park, and I went to
Speaker 1: work full time for The Evening Sun. My first day,
Speaker 1: I covered this huge fire in downtown Baltimore, and it
Speaker 1: was just like you know, I was reading the midst
Speaker 1: of it, and my story made the front page, of course,
Speaker 1: and I called my grandmother and I said, oh my,
Speaker 1: but my mom, I'm on the front page of the
Speaker 1: Evening Sun. She says to me, did you go up
Speaker 1: to hr and make sure that she took part of
Speaker 1: your paycheck and put it in the credit union? I
Speaker 1: said no, did I tell you all to click? And
Speaker 1: I said that this woman hang up with me. I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: it was must have been an accident. So I called
Speaker 1: her right back. I said all the phone was got disconnected,
Speaker 1: and I started to tell her about my big story,
Speaker 1: and she says, did you go make sure that a
Speaker 1: part of your paycheck has put away in the bank.
Speaker 1: I said, now I had time to do that. Click up,
Speaker 1: I said, I So I left my desk at that
Speaker 1: moment that my big day, and I went up to
Speaker 1: HR and I made sure that a portion of my
Speaker 1: paycheck was put away. Then I went back to the
Speaker 1: newsroom and I called her. She asked the same question.
Speaker 1: I said, I sure did. Now. She said, now tell
Speaker 1: me about that story. And I've lived by that everything
Speaker 1: I get. If it's a book of ants, it's whatever
Speaker 1: I put money aside right away. Always, I don't splurge
Speaker 1: at all. And that was the key part of what
Speaker 1: she taught me. And then I think secondary in my
Speaker 1: my grandmother just always talked about not giving in to
Speaker 1: peer pressure as a child, as a teenager, as a
Speaker 1: young adult, as a you know, working professional. You just
Speaker 1: do what you can afford and don't worry about what
Speaker 1: anybody else says, and not just live my life like that.
Speaker 1: You know, I work at the Washington Post. I've been
Speaker 1: on you know, big news programs. I've been you know,
Speaker 1: when when Oprah had her television show, and I remember
Speaker 1: when I was going to be on the Oprah Show.
Speaker 1: My nephew was like, oh, you're a big time now.
Speaker 1: And that time I was driving some used car. He said,
Speaker 1: you need to get a new car because this is
Speaker 1: your life now, and I was just like, nope, just
Speaker 1: driving this old car. In fact, I didn't even get
Speaker 1: my hair done for open show. I was the same
Speaker 1: outfit I had in one of my car in my closet.
Speaker 1: Because I said, Oprah hasn't something anything that I woren before.
Speaker 1: I did not make a big deal about it at all.
Speaker 1: And that's just that's something that I learned from my grandmother.
Speaker 1: That's that's awesome. I mean, so, yeah, you mentioned peer
Speaker 1: pressure even from your nephew. You know he's trying to
Speaker 1: pressure you and car. But you know, you've been in
Speaker 1: the space for a while now, Like, what are some
Speaker 1: of the different changes you've seen over the years, either
Speaker 1: in the personal finance space or you know, even just
Speaker 1: in our culture today. You know that you feel it
Speaker 1: has made it harder to convince others to make smart
Speaker 1: moves with their money, right, Like, obviously peer pressure has
Speaker 1: been around for forever, but do you feel like that
Speaker 1: you've seen certain aspects of our life just kind of
Speaker 1: ramp up in the in the recent years. I think
Speaker 1: with the advot of social media, uh, you can see
Speaker 1: more of what people are doing twenty four seven, So
Speaker 1: you know, We always had the television shows of rich
Speaker 1: and famous shows and things like that that kind of
Speaker 1: press you in commercials. But now you have it not
Speaker 1: just on our television, but now we have it every
Speaker 1: time we look at our phone, you know, every time
Speaker 1: we sign onto work. You know, you have ads falling
Speaker 1: you across platforms, and so there's more of a barrage
Speaker 1: of what you have isn't good enough that you need
Speaker 1: to update and look at this thing, look at these
Speaker 1: cool people. Um, you have influencers who um or paid
Speaker 1: to wear certain things and do certain things that make
Speaker 1: you feel like you're missing out, even with Facebook and
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram. UM. One thing that struck me with
Speaker 1: my children because obviously my husband I have raised them
Speaker 1: similarly to how we were raised and how my grandmother
Speaker 1: raised me. My children, first of all, we we forbid
Speaker 1: them to have social media when they were young, but
Speaker 1: they decided on their own, um, when they got older
Speaker 1: and they could get it, that they wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1: And my oldest said to me, Mom, I really don't
Speaker 1: want to be on Facebook because all people ever do
Speaker 1: is post about stuff they're doing, like they're bragging. And
Speaker 1: that just always made me feel bad that I couldn't
Speaker 1: do something that they were doing, and I didn't want
Speaker 1: that coming into my spirit. And so my children on
Speaker 1: their own decided that they didn't want to be on
Speaker 1: those platforms constantly being sort of one up by friends
Speaker 1: and all the things that they do, because that's really
Speaker 1: what most people are really doing and kind of just bragging,
Speaker 1: look at my life, look at where I'm going. And
Speaker 1: I think that has put extra pressure on folks to
Speaker 1: um do some things with their money in their life
Speaker 1: that they're not ready for. You know, I'm a big
Speaker 1: component of a home ownership, but because of all these
Speaker 1: things that you see, you should have a home, You
Speaker 1: should have a home, and people jump out there sooner
Speaker 1: than they're ready, or they have to take vacations when
Speaker 1: they really need to be paying off their credit card debt.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I don't necessarily blame them because
Speaker 1: they there is a masterful machine out there to get
Speaker 1: you to feel unsatisfied with what you have. I think
Speaker 1: I think you're spot on. I think we all feel
Speaker 1: that to a certain degree. And I think social media
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest culprits, and the Internet certainly
Speaker 1: can help us feel connected in some ways. But there
Speaker 1: are a lot of downsides to our constant connecting this
Speaker 1: to Michelle, Before we dive into more about your new book,
Speaker 1: What to Do with Your Money When Crisis hits, let's
Speaker 1: touch on another crisis that some people find themselves in.
Speaker 1: I was just like really kind of struck by um
Speaker 1: reading about your work helping inmates, that that's just like
Speaker 1: really important work, because I would imagine life is just
Speaker 1: so difficult for men and women once they get released
Speaker 1: from jails. Like, what's your work look like when yeah,
Speaker 1: in that capacity? Yes. So I have a financial ministry
Speaker 1: at my church and we meet once a month for
Speaker 1: a couple of hours actually about three hours to be HONESTUM,
Speaker 1: where I teach classes about personal finance, and it's part
Speaker 1: of that my my church requires every ministry to have
Speaker 1: an outreach, and I would have done it anyway, but
Speaker 1: we chose to prison outreach. So my husband and I visit.
Speaker 1: We actually when we could, UM pre pandemic, we would
Speaker 1: go to correctional institutions and teach our classes and a
Speaker 1: re entry program. So the programs that are set up
Speaker 1: to help people who are about to be released from prison. UM,
Speaker 1: how to you know, handle work? How to handle, you know,
Speaker 1: personal crisis that happened. And then we do the financial component.
Speaker 1: So we teach a series of classes to them. Um,
Speaker 1: so both men and women, about how do you get
Speaker 1: rid of a sense of entitlement, how do you make
Speaker 1: better financial decisions? We teach class on credit, how to
Speaker 1: rebuild your credit. Um, we teach a class on loving money. Like,
Speaker 1: you've been in prison for ten years and you've had
Speaker 1: you had kids before going in, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure for once you get out to make up
Speaker 1: for that time by buying people stuff and and doing
Speaker 1: things that they can't afford just yet. Uh and so uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's such a rewarding work. Um. I just I
Speaker 1: can't even express how wonderful it is to go into
Speaker 1: the institutions. And I know people are thinking, but didn't
Speaker 1: they do a lot of bad stuff? Yeah, they did,
Speaker 1: and they're paying the price for that and they're gonna
Speaker 1: come out. And we want to make sure that when
Speaker 1: they come out there as they are as whole as possible,
Speaker 1: because if we don't have programs like this, if we
Speaker 1: don't allow them to take classes and have some things
Speaker 1: inside the institutions, then how are they are going to
Speaker 1: rejoin society in a way that will be a contributor
Speaker 1: to us. Otherwise they're gonna go back to doing the
Speaker 1: things they did to get in prison in the first place.
Speaker 1: And so this is a throwaway population. People don't want
Speaker 1: to help them. They don't think that they deserve help,
Speaker 1: but they are going to get out and and we
Speaker 1: have to help them because they are. When we help them,
Speaker 1: we help ourselves. And so when people criticize you know,
Speaker 1: programs for for prisoners or you know, um uh, people
Speaker 1: who are formally inconcerated, they're not sort of thinking, well, okay, altruistically,
Speaker 1: but how about we just think if we don't help them,
Speaker 1: they're gonna be criminals again. And that doesn't help you.
Speaker 1: Um but I want to help them because I if
Speaker 1: you hear a lot of their backstories, right, they come
Speaker 1: from broken homes. They come from homes where they were
Speaker 1: abused and you know, single family homes where there wasn't
Speaker 1: enough money. And so those who are in there for
Speaker 1: drugs selling often resorted to that to put food on
Speaker 1: the table for their siblings. That doesn't excuse their behavior,
Speaker 1: but it does explain it. And when you listen to
Speaker 1: them and you work with them. It's very well warning
Speaker 1: to know that you can change somebody's life and the trajectory,
Speaker 1: and when you help them, you help their family and
Speaker 1: their children, and you can break the legacy um that
Speaker 1: has created that has been created in a lot of
Speaker 1: their families. And so it is one of the proudest
Speaker 1: things that I do that I just I feel like
Speaker 1: it's just it's really good work. And when you know,
Speaker 1: maybe we can't help a hundred percent of them, but
Speaker 1: even if we just helped ten percent, that's a huge difference.
Speaker 1: These are people to who made really bad choices, but
Speaker 1: we still have to help them. Well, Michelle, we're glad
Speaker 1: to hear that you're doing that. You're obviously providing hope
Speaker 1: for those you know, those inmates who you're working with,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, you've also provided a lot of
Speaker 1: hope for folks with your your new book, What to
Speaker 1: Do with Your Money When Crisis Hits, And we're actually
Speaker 1: going to dive into that. We're gonna talk about that
Speaker 1: right after this break. Alright, we're back from the break.
Speaker 1: We're talking with Michelle Singletary, one of the greatest personal
Speaker 1: finance writers of all times. She definitely on the mount
Speaker 1: Rushmore of Personal Finance, and Michelle, you just recently published
Speaker 1: your new book, What to Do with Your Money When
Speaker 1: Crisis Hits. Obviously, COVID produced a health crisis that led
Speaker 1: to an economic and then a personal finance crisis for
Speaker 1: so many folks. Like was was that that primary motivation
Speaker 1: behind writing this book? It was so I wrote the
Speaker 1: book with the idea that I didn't want to just
Speaker 1: discuss the current crisis, the pandemic. Um. It's horrible. It
Speaker 1: just caused such economic dismay for so many people. You know,
Speaker 1: millions of people lost their jobs um in addition to
Speaker 1: dealing with health issues, and that there's a cost to that.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to just remind people that this crisis
Speaker 1: will pass and there'll be another one, and I just
Speaker 1: need you to be prepared for that next one. But
Speaker 1: not out of fear, right, because I was thinking about
Speaker 1: how do I explain this book so that people don't
Speaker 1: get scared because you use the word crisis and already
Speaker 1: your you know, anxiety levels go up, right. But I
Speaker 1: thought about it in a sense of the people who
Speaker 1: work in fire stations, the men and women who fight fires.
Speaker 1: They have all their equipment ready at a moment's notice, right,
Speaker 1: the hoses, the trucks, everything is positioned for when they
Speaker 1: get that call for the fire, so they can be
Speaker 1: in that truck and on the street and a moment's notice.
Speaker 1: They hope that there will never be another fire. It
Speaker 1: would not be prudent for them not to prepare for
Speaker 1: that next fire. That's what this book is, Right, you
Speaker 1: don't want it to happen. You just really hope it doesn't.
Speaker 1: But you know that there's gonna be another financial fire.
Speaker 1: Maybe you'll get a little scorched, or maybe things will
Speaker 1: burn down in terms of you've lost your job, but
Speaker 1: you've got to position yourself. And just like those firefighters,
Speaker 1: sometimes they contain that fire and sometimes it's too overwhelming
Speaker 1: and doesn't that is that exactly what happens in people's lives,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter because they're still prepared no matter what.
Speaker 1: And that's what this book is. It helps you to prepare,
Speaker 1: not out of fear, but that you need to plan.
Speaker 1: So that means that as you're going through this crisis,
Speaker 1: and that's the first part of the book, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't have a job, what do I have to pay?
Speaker 1: And then as part of the book is like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've come through this crisis. What do I need to
Speaker 1: do to make to to make up for mistakes that
Speaker 1: I made before that that last crisis? Can I do
Speaker 1: some things to put myself in a better position? And
Speaker 1: there are some things that you can do. And even
Speaker 1: if you say, like a crazy person, which is what
Speaker 1: I do, you still might not have enough. But she'll
Speaker 1: still be able to weather that storm a little bit longer.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the focus of this book, that's right. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: let's le let's kind of talk about some of that
Speaker 1: crisis section the show that you've got in your book.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it can be hard, I think
Speaker 1: for folks to know which obligation is to prioritize when
Speaker 1: they're in that state of dire need, right, And so
Speaker 1: you actually have a sort of a triage list that
Speaker 1: you run through in the book, and so let's let's
Speaker 1: talk about that, which which bills are important and then
Speaker 1: which ones do you think should fall by the wayside
Speaker 1: when those hard times hit. Yeah, I'd like to start
Speaker 1: by even just explaining what triage means, just assuming that
Speaker 1: everybody knows that, and so I not the idea um
Speaker 1: from when you visit an emergency room, right and it's
Speaker 1: not show you broke your ankle, and you're there and
Speaker 1: you're waiting and you're like, oh my gosh, when are
Speaker 1: they going to ever see me? And then someone comes
Speaker 1: in and they take them right back and you're just like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I was here, what is wrong with
Speaker 1: you all? But you don't know that that person is
Speaker 1: having a heart attack? And so they when you have
Speaker 1: a crowded emergency room or not a lot of staff,
Speaker 1: they have to triasge the patients who are the most critical.
Speaker 1: Let's handle them first. Does that mean that you are
Speaker 1: not important or that we shouldn't get to you, But
Speaker 1: we can't get to you right now. And that's how
Speaker 1: you have to think of your bills when you've had
Speaker 1: a disruption in your income or you've been laid off
Speaker 1: of furloughed um, and so you have to look at
Speaker 1: the things that are the most necessary for you, food
Speaker 1: on the table, roof over your head, covering utilities, you know,
Speaker 1: paying that car note if you need that car to
Speaker 1: go look for a job, and other bills need to
Speaker 1: just be forgotten for right now. Now. I say that
Speaker 1: saying I'm not saying that those bills should not be paid,
Speaker 1: but the reality is, if you've lost your job and
Speaker 1: you only have two hundred dollars, I don't need you
Speaker 1: to pay that credit card bill. I need you to
Speaker 1: put food on your table. And you have to be
Speaker 1: okay with that. Because what happens often is and we
Speaker 1: drill it. You guys do it, I do it. We
Speaker 1: drill into everybody's head. Pay your bills one time, do
Speaker 1: whatever you can cut costs, you know, cover that stuff,
Speaker 1: get going, get going, and so that when a crisis happens,
Speaker 1: people try to pay a little bit on everything because
Speaker 1: they don't want to be that person that's reckless. But
Speaker 1: this is not being reckless. This is being a realist. Right.
Speaker 1: You only have so much money, and so you have
Speaker 1: to treat off your bills, and you can't let those
Speaker 1: less critical bills make you put them ahead of other things.
Speaker 1: So if you got a limited amount, talk to your landlord.
Speaker 1: Pay what you can, but you gotta you gotta feed
Speaker 1: your kids tonight, and that's what you focus on. And later,
Speaker 1: when you get employed again and back on your feet,
Speaker 1: I can I can help you build your credit back up.
Speaker 1: I can tell you how to do that. It doesn't
Speaker 1: take as long as you think it does. Uh, let's
Speaker 1: just focus on the emergency stuff right now. Yeah. One
Speaker 1: of the things you talk really well about in your
Speaker 1: book too, is what it looks like to turn to
Speaker 1: friends or family for money. That can get really, really tricky. So, like,
Speaker 1: let's say you are in a hard financial spot, Like
Speaker 1: how do you navigate asking other people to help you out?
Speaker 1: You just have to ask them, you know. Oftentimes the
Speaker 1: first thing you want to do is like, can you
Speaker 1: can you give me a loan, because you feel like
Speaker 1: people will be more receptive to that than the idea
Speaker 1: that you're going to give them their money back. But
Speaker 1: if you've lost your job and you've had some disruption
Speaker 1: in your income and you've just fallen financially, you don't
Speaker 1: really know when you can pay that loan back, and
Speaker 1: and making promises that you can't keep is what ruins
Speaker 1: that relationship. So I'd rather you say, listen, you know,
Speaker 1: I lost my job, we had this huge pandemic. I
Speaker 1: don't know when I can pay you back. So rather
Speaker 1: than ask for own and set up a situation where
Speaker 1: you're gonna be expecting something back that I'm not sure
Speaker 1: when I can pay. If you can't afford it, can
Speaker 1: you give me a financial gift to help me out
Speaker 1: right now? Could you pay my utility bill for a
Speaker 1: month or two for me, if that's possible. I need
Speaker 1: help with my rent this month. If you cover it
Speaker 1: this month, I think I can get enough to pay
Speaker 1: it next month. Um My kids need some things for
Speaker 1: the summer for summer camp. Do you think you could
Speaker 1: help me pay for summer camp? And it? These are
Speaker 1: hard conversations because we are very proud people and you
Speaker 1: don't want to ask that way, but I think that's
Speaker 1: the best way. And if you're on the receiving and
Speaker 1: of that, because many of your listeners will be on
Speaker 1: the receiving end, I need you to open up your
Speaker 1: wallet if you can't afford it, I need you to
Speaker 1: give out of your extra So don't give somebody your
Speaker 1: rent money. But I need you to hear them and
Speaker 1: if they even if they ask for a loan, you say,
Speaker 1: no way giving you this money when my husband and
Speaker 1: I don't lend money to anyone. So and we also
Speaker 1: look around for people who need help even though they
Speaker 1: are too proud to ask. This happened to us um
Speaker 1: a relative I lost her job in the food service industry,
Speaker 1: and she was talking to another relative. She would never
Speaker 1: tell us, and so we heard the story and I
Speaker 1: called her up and I asked her how much of
Speaker 1: her it was. And I called her rental office and
Speaker 1: we arranged to pay her rent for a couple of months.
Speaker 1: And she said, oh, thank you. She's so grateful. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pay you back, and I stopped her right there.
Speaker 1: I said, absolutely not. You will not pay us back.
Speaker 1: This is a gift and you do not ever have
Speaker 1: to think about it again. We don't bring it up
Speaker 1: to her, We don't mention it nothing. This was something
Speaker 1: we did for her, and never when we expect it back.
Speaker 1: And you know, those people in your lives who could
Speaker 1: need help. Maybe it was maybe your very restaurant and
Speaker 1: you go to and you know the staff is only
Speaker 1: working halftime, and there's a waitress or there's somebody who
Speaker 1: you talk to all the time. You know, it's just hey,
Speaker 1: how you doing, how's it going? Is are you getting
Speaker 1: two hours? And they go no, well, you know, and
Speaker 1: then when you leave that tip, you leave enough that
Speaker 1: you know can help pay their Yeah, that's ridiculously cool.
Speaker 1: And I mean, yeah, I just I love your attitude
Speaker 1: towards that too, because it puts somebody in a position
Speaker 1: where yeah, they're they're far more comfortable taking that money,
Speaker 1: and it's and you're saving that relationship when somewhereas that
Speaker 1: obligation can cause someone to avoid maybe interacting with you, like, um,
Speaker 1: if you if you owe the loan there, you've put
Speaker 1: them at ease, which is really cool, right, Yeah, And Michelle,
Speaker 1: another situation too, if someone has lost their job, they
Speaker 1: might be tempted to draw on some like say some
Speaker 1: retirement funds. Uh. And so we would love to hear
Speaker 1: your thoughts, you know, on taking money, say out of
Speaker 1: a four one k, taking some money out of a
Speaker 1: roth ira a for for some of those difficult financial time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it should be the last resort, but it is a
Speaker 1: pot that you might have to tap. And I think
Speaker 1: it would be arrogant for those of us who didn't
Speaker 1: lose their jobs, who have out of court savings, it's
Speaker 1: say absolutely, don't ever touch that money. Well, the reality
Speaker 1: is it's either touch that money or you can't pay
Speaker 1: your It's either touch that money or you can't put
Speaker 1: food on the table. I'm okay with you touching that money.
Speaker 1: It's not ideal, but if you have to, and then
Speaker 1: if you do, don't take out more than you need,
Speaker 1: so you can take it out over time as the
Speaker 1: need arises. So if if you've been laid off and
Speaker 1: you're not sure, you know, take out off for it,
Speaker 1: like maybe two months, but not like six months. And
Speaker 1: if obviously if you're under fifty nine and a half
Speaker 1: when you take out the money, this is gonna be
Speaker 1: so hard for people. At least, please make sure you
Speaker 1: put aside the tax obligation for that money. So if
Speaker 1: you're under fifty nine and half, there's a temper cent
Speaker 1: early primacy um and then obviously you have to pay
Speaker 1: income tax on that money. So you want to get
Speaker 1: some advice from the plan administrator and they can give
Speaker 1: you some guidelines about how much you probably need to
Speaker 1: set aside. And then you really really need to set
Speaker 1: that money aside. I don't want you to be in
Speaker 1: trouble with the I R S when it comes time
Speaker 1: to pay that money back. Yeah, that would be really
Speaker 1: really bad situation, like you're putting yourself in another crisis.
Speaker 1: Then essentially, when when that hits and Michelle, in your book,
Speaker 1: there's so much good just like regular personal finance information too,
Speaker 1: And we want to get to kind of some questions
Speaker 1: that we have for you on that, including like one
Speaker 1: thing about discounts making us dumb. Those are my favorite
Speaker 1: lines in the book. We'll talk about that right after
Speaker 1: this break. Al Right, we are back and we're talking
Speaker 1: with Michelle Singletary. We're talking about crisis proofing your finances
Speaker 1: and Michelle, you know, managing our money. Well, that's one
Speaker 1: of the steps that we can take to avoid getting
Speaker 1: into a fine actual crisis to begin with, right. Uh.
Speaker 1: And budgets they're an important tool. Uh. And you say
Speaker 1: in your book that if you like being broke, then
Speaker 1: don't budget. Uh. But uh yeah, so it's just really important.
Speaker 1: Something that stood out to us though you don't give
Speaker 1: a whole lot of credence to the different budgeting apps,
Speaker 1: you know, like going with the latest new software or
Speaker 1: this new program. Why is that? Can you explain that
Speaker 1: son to our listeners? You know, people are always asking me, Okay,
Speaker 1: so what apps should I use to manage my money?
Speaker 1: And I just got I don't know, pens on paper
Speaker 1: that's what I use, and I get it people want
Speaker 1: that cool tool and they are cool, right. I you know,
Speaker 1: I have a couple that I just use out of
Speaker 1: fun um. But here's the thing. This is why I
Speaker 1: tell people all the time, it is not that app
Speaker 1: that is going to make you manage your money better.
Speaker 1: By the time people want to use an app, they
Speaker 1: have become motivated to get their financial life together. And
Speaker 1: and this is an example that I use, like, and
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people out there are gonna
Speaker 1: be in this position. So you buy that treadmill or
Speaker 1: the exercise bike because you ride it every day, exactly right,
Speaker 1: And what doesn't end up happening to be a close hanger? Right,
Speaker 1: And so that that treadmill and that bike can absolutely
Speaker 1: help you get in shape. But if you don't have
Speaker 1: the motivation to use it, it's nothing but a clothes hanger.
Speaker 1: And that's what the budget apps are, right. And so
Speaker 1: you would need to first most importantly, say I want
Speaker 1: to have control over my money. And then once you
Speaker 1: say that, it doesn't matter what app you use. Like
Speaker 1: I said, I'm sitting talking to you right now, and
Speaker 1: in front of me is a little red notebook that
Speaker 1: I got at the dollar store, and I write down
Speaker 1: my financial stuff and things of financial stuff I have
Speaker 1: to do, Like right now, I've got to move some
Speaker 1: money into a fund um and my my self account.
Speaker 1: And I wrote down, okay, call the company. And I'm
Speaker 1: not using no apps. I'm not on the Excel, I'm
Speaker 1: not on anything. I'm not saying I don't use those
Speaker 1: tools and not or north should you if you line
Speaker 1: one that you like. But that is not what makes
Speaker 1: you a good money manager. It is it starts with
Speaker 1: your mind and your mind set. That is the tool
Speaker 1: that will help bring you prosperity. Those other things are bonus.
Speaker 1: They're helpful. Um. And so I don't really care what
Speaker 1: you use, right because you see all these ads and
Speaker 1: this is like grant. These things have slice bread. It
Speaker 1: is for the people who are already motivated. But the
Speaker 1: people that I work with, you're not. Let me put
Speaker 1: it this way. You're not broke because you don't use
Speaker 1: a cool app. Ye, You're broke because you're not budgeting
Speaker 1: in general. It's all right. So let's get to one
Speaker 1: of my favorite lines in the whole book. It just
Speaker 1: stuck out to me. He said, discounts make us dumb.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Because I like a
Speaker 1: deal from time to time, Michell, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I don't. I like I use
Speaker 1: coupons too. Um. But one of my favorite books called
Speaker 1: Dollars and Cents. I love this book and I actually
Speaker 1: reference it to it in my book, um, and it
Speaker 1: was talks about behavioral economics and how we are so
Speaker 1: concentrating on a discount that we don't realize that they
Speaker 1: make us dumb, that they use the lore of a
Speaker 1: discount to get you to spend and spend more than
Speaker 1: you intend to spend. Let me give an example. So
Speaker 1: you go into the store. You're only gonna go get
Speaker 1: one pair of shoes. Your kid needs a pair of sneakers.
Speaker 1: They only need one pair of sneakers. They only got
Speaker 1: one pair of fee. And you go to the store
Speaker 1: and that says, well, if you buy this pair, you
Speaker 1: can get this pair for half off. And you're thinking
Speaker 1: that's a deal, but is it. You only went in
Speaker 1: it to get one pair of shoes. Now you have spent,
Speaker 1: even at what might be considered fifty off, more money
Speaker 1: than you intended to go into that store. And that
Speaker 1: makes you, I hate to say it, dumb, right because
Speaker 1: they are using you, and you know darn well that
Speaker 1: they have priced both those shoes still account for that discount,
Speaker 1: you know. And then we concentrate on that so much
Speaker 1: that we you know, um, like the reward call credit
Speaker 1: card reward cards, people like just they're so proud of
Speaker 1: all those award points that they've accumulated. Now, how exactly
Speaker 1: did you accumulate those award points? You spend money on
Speaker 1: a credit card, right, You've got to spend a certain
Speaker 1: amount of many right, um. And and study show that
Speaker 1: when you use plastic, you tend to spend more than
Speaker 1: you use cash. So they've built all of that into
Speaker 1: all of these things that you think and you're getting
Speaker 1: a discount on. And so it doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: shouldn't take advantage of discounts, but just understand that that
Speaker 1: there is a method to their madness to get you
Speaker 1: to overspend. That's right. Yeah, they're playing chess while you're
Speaker 1: playing checkers. You're looking at that deal, but they've already
Speaker 1: two moves ahead of you, two in three moves ahead,
Speaker 1: if you're right, you know what I mean? Even grosser
Speaker 1: store keepons people clipping, and you know, and you're buying
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and you know any of those keepons
Speaker 1: if you know you have to buy more to get
Speaker 1: that fifty cents off, or they had ten four dollar
Speaker 1: or ten for ten dollars, but you only need one can.
Speaker 1: So you in your head you're thinking, I gotta buy
Speaker 1: those ten to get that discount, but you don't right um.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I even have to stop myself. It's like,
Speaker 1: go three cans for X, and I said, well, I'm
Speaker 1: making a stew for example, but I really don't need
Speaker 1: those extra two cans right now. And if you really
Speaker 1: look at says and then they do divide it up
Speaker 1: by that three, so you're not over paying if you
Speaker 1: buy just a one um. And so you just have
Speaker 1: to continually talk yourself to do I really need this
Speaker 1: um even if it's less money. I'm still spending money
Speaker 1: on something that I never intended to spend it on.
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, So, Michelle, let's let's talk about a
Speaker 1: relationship to with debt. You wrote an article at one
Speaker 1: point that was titled if you're in debt, you don't
Speaker 1: deserve a vacation. Readers didn't really like that one. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you have to push back on that one. But
Speaker 1: your thoughts on debts. You know, ass treating yourself when
Speaker 1: you've still got some debt lingering in your life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that I knew I was being provocative. I did not
Speaker 1: know that they were gonna put a hit. Oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: you would have thought I'd slapped somebody's baby. I mean,
Speaker 1: and I was trying to be provocative. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: lie I was, because what happens is I hear people
Speaker 1: say all the time when I deserve this, and I
Speaker 1: work hard, and I deserve this, And I'm sure you
Speaker 1: do work hard, but you don't deserve to be in
Speaker 1: debt and you don't deserve that vacation that you can't
Speaker 1: afford when you've got credit card debt that you need
Speaker 1: to pay off. Or people will say, I say for
Speaker 1: my wedding, but you have ten thousand dollars in credit
Speaker 1: card debt. So that doesn't sort of mesh with me.
Speaker 1: And so I like to joke that if that was
Speaker 1: a person, I'd slap it. I hate that. I hate
Speaker 1: that it limits your choices. And so what I was
Speaker 1: trying to tell people is that you can have a
Speaker 1: vacation when I'll spending money, um that you don't have
Speaker 1: that you need to put towards reducing your debt. And
Speaker 1: this goes back to you know, when we talked about
Speaker 1: the things that my grandmother taught me about being satisfied
Speaker 1: where I am, and so we have in this country
Speaker 1: talk told people that a proper vacation is that you've
Speaker 1: got to go somewhere, you gotta spend money, you gotta
Speaker 1: do this, when in fact a vacation really ought to
Speaker 1: be I just need time away from work. I need
Speaker 1: to just be peaceful. I could walk through my neighborhood,
Speaker 1: I could sit on my porche. I could you know,
Speaker 1: call friends. I could spend time playing games with my family. Um,
Speaker 1: the most important thing you need to do is to
Speaker 1: get your finances together so that when the next crisis hits,
Speaker 1: you can weather that storm. And so if you have
Speaker 1: a lot of credit card debt, I'd rather you spend
Speaker 1: that time taking that money that you would have used
Speaker 1: on a paid vacation and bring that debt down. And
Speaker 1: I know that it might mean that you don't take
Speaker 1: a vacation for a couple of years, but it's only
Speaker 1: for a season, uh, And that during that time that
Speaker 1: you get rid of that debt. By the time you
Speaker 1: do have the money, need the cash, to freedom to
Speaker 1: take the vacation. It will be a sweet time because
Speaker 1: you don't come back to that debt. How how much
Speaker 1: nicer to take that vacation knowing that you actually have
Speaker 1: the money in the bank to pay for it. Right,
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And at what point
Speaker 1: in the book, Michelle, you say debt is debt and
Speaker 1: you don't distinguish really between good debt and bad debt.
Speaker 1: So I find that interesting because there's definitely you know,
Speaker 1: some people, especially Matt and I is real estate investors.
Speaker 1: We have a slightly different take on debt where mom
Speaker 1: and popularistate investors, not noth these like big time guys
Speaker 1: with hundreds of units or anything like that. But debt
Speaker 1: debt is different in the real estate space, I think
Speaker 1: um at times. So yeah, well, what's your take on debt?
Speaker 1: When you say debt is debt, do you distinguish in
Speaker 1: any way between certain kinds of debt that maybe makes
Speaker 1: sense for individuals at a certain point in their life,
Speaker 1: or or not at all? You know, I love you guys, right,
Speaker 1: talk about you're welcome, You're welcome to throw us under
Speaker 1: the bus. Too if you want. So here's here's my
Speaker 1: strategy about talking about debt. First of all, it is
Speaker 1: there is no such thing as good that and bad dad,
Speaker 1: because we're scribing adjectives to something that nobody likes. I mean,
Speaker 1: you you use that to get some things that you want,
Speaker 1: like a home, but you don't like it. You don't
Speaker 1: feel good about it. You know, when you write that check,
Speaker 1: you are not skipping through the bed to the mailbox
Speaker 1: going I love that I have to pay this interest
Speaker 1: on this money. Isn't this glorious? No? You know. And
Speaker 1: on the other side, you know, bad dad. What is that?
Speaker 1: It's still just debt. And what I try to get
Speaker 1: people to think about it in a sense of debt
Speaker 1: limits your choices, particularly doing a crisis. Let's just look
Speaker 1: at the pandemic and landlords for example. And so I
Speaker 1: tell you I talked to a landlord from North Carolina,
Speaker 1: sweet guy. I did a column on it, and he
Speaker 1: has multiple properties, you know, small um, you know, not
Speaker 1: some big conglomerate. But he said that I told myself
Speaker 1: that I wanted property and that I was gonna make
Speaker 1: extra payments so that I could pay the properties off
Speaker 1: as quick as possible, so that in the times of trouble,
Speaker 1: I don't have to press my tenants because they're all
Speaker 1: good people. He chooses his tenants wisely, and he said,
Speaker 1: when they are at their lowest, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be that landlord that says, give me my money or
Speaker 1: get out. And he was able to give his tenants
Speaker 1: breathing room at the height of the pandemic because he
Speaker 1: didn't have loans on those properties, and lots of landlords
Speaker 1: had properties that they need every dollar of that rent
Speaker 1: or they're gonna go under pretty quickly. And and that's
Speaker 1: that's not a wise use of debt. So I just
Speaker 1: try to get people to get out of debt so
Speaker 1: that that when that next crisis happens, and it will,
Speaker 1: you as a landlord, could be more magnanimous to your
Speaker 1: tenants because you don't have to worry about the mortgage
Speaker 1: you have to pay. Now, that's not to say that
Speaker 1: you you know, you may not be there yet, but
Speaker 1: I hope that you you strive to be there so
Speaker 1: that you don't have all that financial pressure. You have
Speaker 1: breathing room, so that you can be humane during a
Speaker 1: time that was inhumane. Man, Michelle, your generosity of spirit.
Speaker 1: It just comes through um in in this conversation. It's
Speaker 1: been an absolute pleasure to chat with you. So much
Speaker 1: wisdom and and just so much humor. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Like where where can our
Speaker 1: listeners find out more about you and uh in your
Speaker 1: new book? Well, first of all, I love you. Follow
Speaker 1: me on Twitter. It's at singletary. M That's the platform
Speaker 1: I like the most. Sign up for the Washington Post
Speaker 1: and get my columns and newsletter. I have a weekly
Speaker 1: personal finance newsletter. Of course, there's a book where you
Speaker 1: can get it all major bookstores, independent bookstores and hey, listen,
Speaker 1: if you can't afford the book, get it from the
Speaker 1: library to right completely okay, don't tell my publisher, but
Speaker 1: I'm completely okay with that, right. I'd rather you have
Speaker 1: the knowledge to worry about the fact that you can't
Speaker 1: buy the book. Yes, I love that, Michelle. This has
Speaker 1: been a joy talking with you today. We appreciate you
Speaker 1: just yeah, giving us some of your time. This has
Speaker 1: been a lot of fun. Thanks again, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me all Right, Matt, what a great conversation with Michelle.
Speaker 1: Super awesome human being and just like super knowledgeable when
Speaker 1: it comes to personal finances. Also, I can't wait till
Speaker 1: they actually get that mount rushmore personal finance up because
Speaker 1: she's definitely gonna be and we'll deserve to. Well, there's yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's a difference to between being you would you
Speaker 1: said iconic, right, you want to be iconic. You don't
Speaker 1: want to be like a legend, because when you're a legend,
Speaker 1: that that means you know your your your best years
Speaker 1: are behind you. She's not a legend, she's iconic. She
Speaker 1: is she'll be a legend thirty years from now. She's
Speaker 1: at the top of her game right now though, exactly.
Speaker 1: All right, So yeah, what was your big takeaway from
Speaker 1: that conversation? Okay, well, so I've heard this before when
Speaker 1: it comes to loaning money to friends or family to
Speaker 1: to try not to actually lend them that money, and
Speaker 1: if possible, just give them that money. Hopefully you are
Speaker 1: in a financial position where things are solid in your life,
Speaker 1: and by giving them that money, right, by gifting it,
Speaker 1: there's a much better chance of you maintaining that relationship
Speaker 1: right without things getting weird, without the dynamics suddenly shifting,
Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, you know they're thinking that
Speaker 1: you're about to ask them, They're like, hey, are you
Speaker 1: able to pay back yet? So they're not coming over
Speaker 1: for dinner. Even if you're not thinking that, uh they
Speaker 1: that might be on their mind. But then you might
Speaker 1: be thinking things right because you might see them spend
Speaker 1: some money, or you might hear them maybe going on
Speaker 1: a small trip or something, and you're thinking to yourself,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, like you you still owe me money.
Speaker 1: And so I've heard that you can't afford to go
Speaker 1: to Tahiti. Yeah, oh of course not. Yeah, uh so
Speaker 1: I've heard that before. But one of the things you
Speaker 1: said that really stood out to me was to actively
Speaker 1: look for individuals to help who you're pretty sure might
Speaker 1: be hurting when it comes to their finances, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've got a lot of relationships in our lives. We
Speaker 1: know what folks are up to, we know uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we're familiar with the different industries that have suffered recently,
Speaker 1: and it aside from pandemics and massive crises like this,
Speaker 1: we need to still be aware of what it is
Speaker 1: that individuals are going through on a personal level. And
Speaker 1: so I just love that Michelle and her husband are
Speaker 1: actively searching for individuals they can help. They've made this
Speaker 1: a priority in their life as to you know, what
Speaker 1: it is that they're doing with their money. And with
Speaker 1: someone like Michelle who doesn't have a splurge, I mean
Speaker 1: I would even venture to say that this is something
Speaker 1: that might even be considered a splurge and admirable splurs yes,
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of folks would say, oh,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I can't believe you do that. But
Speaker 1: for her, in reality, that's something that is able to
Speaker 1: bring her a lot of joy as well. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: my big takeaway I will say from this conversation a
Speaker 1: lot of good stuff. But when we talked about why
Speaker 1: she wrote the book, COVID was certainly a part of that.
Speaker 1: But you also never know when a crisis is going
Speaker 1: to hit. And and one of the terms that she
Speaker 1: used in the book that she didn't actually bring up
Speaker 1: on this episode, but she said that you need to
Speaker 1: manage your personal finances like you're in the middle of
Speaker 1: a perpetual recession. And I'm like, that's exactly how I
Speaker 1: approach my finances. It actually made me think of when
Speaker 1: we talked to Morgan Household and he basically said invest
Speaker 1: like an optimist, but save like a pessimist, and I
Speaker 1: think that's the exact same approach, basically living like you're
Speaker 1: in a perpetual recession or saving like your pessimistic about
Speaker 1: the future. We should all be kind of taking that
Speaker 1: route um with with our finances, investing like optimists, saving
Speaker 1: like pessimists, not sure what the future holds, but making
Speaker 1: sure that we're prepared for the event of a potential crisis.
Speaker 1: And you know what, they don't tell us ahead of
Speaker 1: time that they're coming um there. They usually kind of
Speaker 1: come out of nowhere. You know. COVID was definitely one
Speaker 1: of those things that came out of nowhere. The recession
Speaker 1: of two thousand eight, You know that that was something
Speaker 1: that came out of nowhere. Most people weren't predicting that
Speaker 1: it was gonna happen. I could point to so many
Speaker 1: different crises that have happened over the years that people
Speaker 1: were not predicting. And then there's just like the general
Speaker 1: things that happened to individuals, you know, in everyday life too,
Speaker 1: the crises of a family member getting sick, are you
Speaker 1: getting sick? And they're just impossible to predict. And so
Speaker 1: you need to live life, manage your personal finances, like
Speaker 1: you are in that perpetual recession, and if you do,
Speaker 1: you will be prepared when the next crisis. I mean,
Speaker 1: and you're saying not to be stressed the whole time, right,
Speaker 1: because typically from an emotional standpoint, when you're in a crisis,
Speaker 1: you feel the squeeze a little bit, like things aren't
Speaker 1: going great and you want things to kind of go
Speaker 1: back to normal. But it's about taking the actions to
Speaker 1: make sure that you don't arrive to that point emotionally
Speaker 1: when there truly is a crisis. So yeah, man, I'm
Speaker 1: glad you you pointed that out. Uh. And actually, dude,
Speaker 1: so I just said, squeeze when you're sort of a crisis.
Speaker 1: Let's go ahead, shift gears. Let's get back to the
Speaker 1: beer that you and I enjoyed on this episode, which
Speaker 1: was called Squeezebox. Uh. This is a beer by Urban Artifact,
Speaker 1: and this was a strawberry Midwestern fruit tart that was
Speaker 1: donated to the show by Sandra. Sandra, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for sending this one hour away. Joel, what were
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this one? Dude? This was awesome. This
Speaker 1: is a tart, funky strawberry beer. It had kind of
Speaker 1: like it was kind of thick, so I had some
Speaker 1: milkshake type qualities to it. But I personally love a
Speaker 1: beer that brings the funk, and this one brought a
Speaker 1: lot of funk. It wasn't us straight up fruit too
Speaker 1: sweet or anything like that. The funkiness plus the acidity
Speaker 1: plus the fruit they bounced out really really well, man,
Speaker 1: I really dug it. Yeah, well you mentioned milkshake. There's
Speaker 1: actually some a good amount of vanilla bean in this
Speaker 1: beer as well, so that probably adds to the certain
Speaker 1: smoothness of it. Right, Let's see, that's what I was feeling.
Speaker 1: My palette is that brilliant, so tuned in. So, dude,
Speaker 1: I wanted to point out one thing on the can here. Uh,
Speaker 1: they tell you the acidity of the beer. I have
Speaker 1: never seen a brewery that put the pH of the
Speaker 1: beer on here. And so this one is a three
Speaker 1: point four seven, which is so when when it comes
Speaker 1: to acids and bases, like, the lower the number, the
Speaker 1: higher it is in a cidity. Right, And so I'm
Speaker 1: kind of a data I'm a I'm a numbers nerd,
Speaker 1: and so for me to see that number on this can,
Speaker 1: like it provides a frame of reference. And now any
Speaker 1: other beer I have that actually does happen to have
Speaker 1: the acidity level on there, I'm gonna know where it
Speaker 1: stacks up against this one. I think that's really cool, man.
Speaker 1: I've never seen that before, and I think more breweries
Speaker 1: should be doing that. There you go. Yeah, I'm done
Speaker 1: with more. The more info. It's interesting info, something I
Speaker 1: never would have. Let's get scientific about it. Expected my
Speaker 1: beer can. But that's really cool. And yeah, big thanks
Speaker 1: to Sandra for sending us this beer. But that's gonna
Speaker 1: do it for today's episode. If you want to know
Speaker 1: where you can get Michelle's book, well, she mentioned the library,
Speaker 1: but you can also buy it if you want. We'll
Speaker 1: link to that one in our show notes up on
Speaker 1: our website at how to money dot com. That's right, man.
Speaker 1: So that's gonna be it for this episode, Joel. Until
Speaker 1: next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,