WEBVTT - The Escape 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:02.759 One thing I learned in representing people at the state 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:08.800 hospital and sort of representing people at the state penitentiaries. 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:14.680 As Americans, we have taught ourselves that freedom is the 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.480 most important thing in the world. We want our freedom. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.400 We don't want to be in prison or a state hospital, 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:28.000 so it's not surprising that someone would want to escape. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:33.800 It didn't do much other than add to her mystique. 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.720 He had the ability to jump over a fence that 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:42.080 had lots of barbed wire on the top and physically 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:58.880 be able to do that. My name is Stephen Gorum Gorham. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.240 I'm an attorney in Salem. I've been an attorney since 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:10.440 nineteen seventy five. I went to Cornell University as an undergrad, 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:16.080 and then as a graduate I as a lost school. 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.959 I went to Wilamta University in Salem, Oregon, where I 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.360 have been practicing since nineteen seventy five. 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.119 Steve represented Diane Downs as her post conviction attorney. Post 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.280 conviction attorneys represent a client after the verdict and will 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.000 typically assist a guilty party in making the case that 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.360 they were not adequately represented by their council in the courtroom. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.200 They try to help them appeal the verdict or provide 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:42.720 other post conviction relief. 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.520 My first step in representing somebody at the time and 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:52.360 a post conviction was to go visit them. So I'm 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:57.960 sure that Dianam was in the Oregon's Correctional Center here 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.280 in Salem. It happens to be about a mile from 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.840 my office on State Street. The women's prison was built 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.200 right next to the Oregon State Penitentiary, right outside their wall. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.919 The organ State Penitentiary was built in the eighteen hundred sometime, 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.000 and it's on walled prison, and they built the women's 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.520 prison right outside the wall. And the women's prison was 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:30.079 a one story building with a fence around it. They 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:35.840 had a small yard that was outside the building. You 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.799 could see the yard from State Street because it's right 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:44.800 off of State Street, and it was surrounded by a tall, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.840 chain length fence with barbed wire on the top. 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.360 But that's not where our story in this episode really begins. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.920 Shortly after Steve took on Diane as a client, she 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:58.240 escaped from prison. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:04.400 So also in nineteen eighty seven, that's when Diane escaped. 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:11.000 She jumped over the fence. She knew some people, she 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:16.000 had other inmates at the Oregon State Women's Correctional Center. 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:21.920 Knew people in Salem, some of whom lived a couple 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.320 of blocks from the women's prison. So there were houses 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:31.320 that were rental houses on State Street. And when Diane escaped, 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.960 she got picked up by a couple because she was 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.320 either hitch hiking. I'm not sure why they let her out, 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.720 but they didn't take very far they let her out. 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.640 Eric Mason was working as a reporter in Oregon at 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.920 the time of Diane's escape. He traveled with a photographer 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.760 around the area to find potential places Diane could have 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.480 escaped too, hoping to be among the first to figure 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:55.520 out her whereabouts. 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:00.960 She's at Oregon Women's Correctional Facility and doing the rest 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.520 of her life there. And you know, it's not the 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:12.360 most high security max facility in the world. There there's 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.520 a couple of chain link fences and today it's closed, 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:21.839 but at the time, you know, it was where all 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:26.119 kinds of women involved in strange crimes were being held. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.000 And so she's been there a while and I think 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:35.479 life is just grinding on for Diane. And just down 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:41.160 the street, I mean literally blocks from the Women's Correctional 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.799 for Center are two guys that are semi homeless, working 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:52.279 poor who are there and crazy as it is. Once 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:57.760 again my path crosses these two people. As I'm devoting 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.240 and donating some time down at the Union Gospel Mission 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.719 to make dinner and do some other things there for them, 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.839 and I need to see guys Wayne, Wayne and Bob, 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.120 and you know, I strike a conversation at the dinner 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.120 hour with them, and they're two very interesting guys, and 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.080 so they begin to tell me about their life. And 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.159 the reason I went to go visit their house was 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.080 because there were sources of information about how the world 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:30.680 of drugs worked in this town. 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.880 So you saw them as a stringer potentially, well, I 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.480 saw them as people who needed help, and obviously they 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:42.839 needed help from the Union Gospel Mission, but they also wanted. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:44.719 To tell me stories, and they knew I was a reporter, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.839 and so I got to know them in the months 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:55.600 leading up to her escape. So when when the escape 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.440 happens and she goes over the wire, it's like, Wow, 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.760 she's got some guts to go straight over the fence. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:10.680 I'm thinking, you know, fourteen eighteen feet or so. She 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.039 goes up and over the top of it and is 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:18.599 out and gone, and day goes by, and two days 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.640 goes by, and I'm thinking, Wow, she might have actually 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.679 escaped and got away with it. And so every day 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.000 the assignment was be the first to find Diane and 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.599 get it on TV. And if you can't, make sure 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.360 you get her arrested being walked in. And so we 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:41.200 were driving everywhere, myself and the photographer. I remember this. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.840 We were thinking, Okay, she could be out in from country, 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:49.880 she could be living down by the Welhama River, she 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:55.960 could be trying to find the next guy already. And 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.440 so we were. We were trying to check off all 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.800 the boxes of things we'd done. And I said to 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.320 the photographer, you wrote around each day with a photog. 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.480 I said, wouldn't it be weird if she ended up 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:17.880 at Wayne's house along the river, just a few blocks 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:23.160 from the Women's Correctional Center, the prison, and darn it, 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:24.960 that's where she was. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.840 Eric offered to show me the area firsthand. So we 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:30.840 got in this car and toward the area and near 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.400 the prison where Diane flood and then. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.600 There's Mill Creek. You can see Mill Creek, and then 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.080 on the other side of Mill Creek is the women's 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.880 facility and you can see that fence there. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.400 Yeah, I see the barbarar fence. That's pretty intense. 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:52.160 Yeah, And so at the time though, it was not 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:56.240 as well fortified as it is now, and Diane just 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.960 basically climbed it, hopped over and kept going. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.280 Surprised at how the prison was like a modern day 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:03.600 castle with a river moat. 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:13.200 There's big open brush on three sides of the place, 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:20.000 and you'd expect, you would have thought that if someone 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.239 wanted to get out of town fast, they'd head towards 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:29.520 the railroad tracks and into a box car or anything 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.240 getting out of town and taken off. But that's not 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:36.480 what was going to happen here. And then the state 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.160 police office where they brought her in was right over here, 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:49.560 and that's where I first saw Bob and Wayne being 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.839 led away almost as if, you know, they were on 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.560 the same purp walk as Diane downs, but they were 0:08:58.600 --> 0:08:59.800 all together right here. 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.760 I wanted to know what Bob and Wayne were like, 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.120 these two men who harbor Diane after her escape. 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.840 Bob was you know, studious looking and you know, had 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.800 glasses and kind of looked like a computer geek. And 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:20.080 Wayne was a fairly decent looking individual and looked like 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.679 he could be a landscaper, you know, in southern California, 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.400 And they really did have little odd jobs every day 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.520 that they would do, but they never really made enough 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.000 money to have a nice place, and so they had 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:36.800 this tiny little hovel along Mill Creek and then would 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.520 go down and have dinner at the Union Gospel Mission 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.080 and that was their life. So they have a notorious 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.080 convicted killer show up in the middle of the night 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.240 at their house. You know, it was quite a surprise, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.720 but you know, they certainly weren't going to throw her 0:09:53.760 --> 0:10:04.720 out either. I think what was later determined was that 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:10.600 she used the creek Mill Creek to be able to 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:17.880 confound the dogs, and she knew enough about tracking that 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.400 she went down that creek, and so I think one 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.640 of the first things she did is she got rid 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:28.880 of her clothes and I think left them in the water. 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:35.200 I'm not sure how what level of nakedness that she was, 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:40.320 but when she showed up at Bob and Wayne's place, 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:46.200 she was cold, didn't have her clothes or most of them, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.120 and just needed to get warm in a place to stay. 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.679 And I believe I'm going to have to go back 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.400 to check to see this is true. That she had 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:02.320 some correspondence with people outside the prison. It was a 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.280 pen pal, and I'm not sure how that worked into it, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.480 but they finally looked at her tablet and began to 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:13.160 figure out who she'd been talking with, and so that's 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:18.280 what helped them figure out part of you know, what 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:20.800 her plans were and how to she was getting out 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:22.360 and whatnot. 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.559 Though that Wayne said he fell in love. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:33.920 With her, yes, and so I remember Wayne almost thinking 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.880 and saying things to the effect of, I couldn't believe 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:43.559 my good fortune. You know, here I am a marginally 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.760 employed but mostly homeless man in Salem, Oregon. 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:49.360 And. 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.680 The woman of my dreams comes walking through the door 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:54.880 almost half naked. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.520 From what I read with Wayne, it's not like Wayne 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.360 and Diane had a relationship. Diane was sleeping with Wayne, 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.679 so I don't think he would easily give her up 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:12.560 if that was the case. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.920 That's true. I think Wayne was the type of guy 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:23.560 who was street smart and really didn't like snitches or 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.520 people that turned other people in, and so yeah, I 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.320 would imagine he kept things pretty quiet. What I really 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:37.439 can't believe is that, given the search that was done, 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:44.560 that for those days following the escape, she stayed right 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.240 where she was a non founder. That's the part that's 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.800 amazing that she was able to basically hide right here 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.920 in plain sight. See, I think it's okay. So here's 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.160 where we go over the creek. You can see it's 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.520 very vegetative down there, and someone just walking up that 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:11.000 creek would have tried to find someone's back porch, which 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:11.560 she did. 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:13.839 So this neighborhood is cute. It looks like it's the 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.120 older neighborhood with little bungalows. That actually looks very different 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.040 than what I thought it would look like in my head, 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:24.839 because these houses are just adorable, like painted little ladies, right. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.280 And then the ones that are right on the creek, 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:36.400 some of them are just like an outbuilding to another house. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.560 Oh okay, I see here at the creek, just some. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.800 Of these See this little building. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.320 Here, Oh yeah, it looks like an outhouse attached to 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:44.720 this house. 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.880 It's just a little outbuilding like a shed. And that's 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.880 what those two. It was very much like a shed. 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.000 And you can see the water. You know, someone could 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:02.760 just sort of swim along this creek and their scent 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.480 you couldn't follow that trail. And I think that's I 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:08.839 think that's what she was able to. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:15.000 Do after she was captured. Diane's brother James, was one 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.199 of the only people close to her who was able 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:18.920 to speak to her about the escape. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:24.320 I wish she'd call me, That's what I said at 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.000 the time. Actually, I remember that. I remember it. I 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.800 was working, and I was working at a place in 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.280 San Joaquin Valley, California. You know, I wanted to take 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.400 her to Canada, take her to Mexico, or just take 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.360 her away from here and to where she'd be safe. 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.080 And but yeah, she didn't. 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.160 Obviously, What did you think when she was found? 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.440 I've had conversations there about this. I thought, it's not 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.160 surprising she was caught. I guess, you know, she's looking 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.000 for affection, and she's looking for love. You know, she's 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.080 just looking to be hell and tell everything's gonna be okay, 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:04.720 you know. And I guess maybe that's why I want 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.880 her to call me, so I could tell her that. 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.040 What were your conversations about about that time that she escaped. 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:16.680 That she scaled over the walls and took off and 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.800 she was gonna go there, And she said, oh my god, 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.160 what do I do? Now? You know what I mean? 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.720 Best like plans. It's like she get over and it's like, 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:32.800 oh shit, where am I gonna go? And I mean, 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:34.400 even if you go to the house you have in 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.920 mind to go to, it's like, what's your next Her 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.080 next plan was to find the person that did this, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.800 and every time she said that to herself, it is like, 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:45.920 how do you do that? You know what I mean? 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:51.760 And so she got to this person's house and was 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:56.400 shocking up with this guy and never got to the 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.520 part of finding the person that did this. 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.480 Well, she also had tons of authorities looking for her, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:04.440 so I don't. 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.080 See what I mean. It's like, you get over the 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.400 fence and it's like, oh my goodness, gracious, what do you. 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.000 Don't even father than like the men's. 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.320 Sixteen foot tall with circular razor wire on the top 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:19.000 of there's two of them. How did she do it? 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:25.720 She through through something over the top and just climbed over. Literally, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.080 she just climbed over to sixteen foot fences with circular, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.960 not barbed wire, but razor wire on top of them. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.280 Once caught, Diana was transferred to another prison under the 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.400 Interstate Compact, likely to prevent the organ Women's Penitentiary from 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.280 receiving any additional public attention that arose from her presence there. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.040 You know, they sent her to New Jersey after her escape, 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.480 which is semi surprising in the sense it's not so 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.640 surprising that they sent her out of town because at 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:59.560 the time our women's prison was you know, not the 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:05.960 most sure. And the interstate compact is basically like baseball 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.280 trading or football trading. You know, you trade an inmate 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.640 for another inmate, and that's pretty what it is. 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.159 I read records that that knew that there was a 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.720 lot of rejections for who would house Diane Downs after 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:27.040 the escape, and that New Jersey said, we will take 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:31.280 Diane if we could send you to inmates when we 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.720 have the need, when the need. 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.040 Yeah, you know, and I'm relatively sure they moved Diane 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.320 to get her out of town so that the publicity 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:47.040 wasn't always there. And again originally because she had escapes, 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:52.400 and a lot of times they they do the prisoner 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:57.439 swaps or the interstate compact to try to get a 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.119 new environment for the inmate. They will, you know, maybe 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:07.399 under different circumstances in a different prison state, they will 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.520 you know, get better whatever that means. I'm sure no 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.600 one wanted to take Diane because of the publicity. And 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:17.800 then you know, she tried to escape that prison. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:19.280 Oh I didn't know that. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.840 Oh yeah, you didn't know she tried to escape New Jersey. No, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.560 but while she was in New Jersey, she had a 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.480 personal relationship with a man who was a helicopter pilot 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:40.199 who was going to steal a helicopter and land in 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:46.399 New Jersey and escape with Diane again. And he gave 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.960 that conspiracy up. I'm not going to get this right, 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.840 you know, a couple months before it was supposed to 0:18:53.880 --> 0:19:00.520 go into practice because of something that happened. He didn't caught. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.240 He confessed and turned himself in, and he may have 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:09.280 been from Seattle. A lot of these details aren't there, 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.919 but I know I went to see her in the 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:18.440 New Jersey prison after she was there, before this escape attempt, 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.480 because I was back visiting my family and it was 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:27.120 just easy for me to do to visit her. And 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.639 I wanted to visit her just because, you know, mainly 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.320 to see what a New Jersey prison looked like. And 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:39.399 then when this escape attempt happened, it was just weird, 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.080 you know. And that's when she got sent to the 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:46.399 California Prison, which is, as I understand it, and I 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.159 don't know that this is true, the worst women's prison 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.960 in the world early in the United States. 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.119 I'll to do some research on that. I know that 0:19:54.560 --> 0:20:00.800 I was talking to the infamous Betty Boderic and she's 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.040 housed with Diane. Well not they're not like cellmates or anything, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.080 but they actually know each other in that prison, which 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.840 is interesting to me. But how you know different inmates 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:11.919 are connected. 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.679 Yeah, And as I said, I went through some of 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:22.200 these records on ogin and some of the things that 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.440 she was claiming. Again I didn't go and see any 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.960 of the details, but she's claiming, you know that she was, 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.960 you know, a cellmate of hers and this quote direc lady. 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.440 You know, I think dreaming up all sorts of conspiracy 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.720 theories concerning who she's been selled with. 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.840 Initially, Steve reserved his opinions on Diane's guilt, going solely 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.440 off the court's verdict. His principles as an attorney prevented 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.520 him from taking certain actions as a client directly admitted 0:20:58.560 --> 0:20:59.200 guilt to him. 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:06.200 Well, her daughter said that she was the perpetrator. Diane 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.520 always said at least at that time, or it was 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:13.520 the bushy haired stranger. I believe I'm an ethical attorney, 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:20.159 and an ethical attorney can't have his client get on 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.639 the stand and lie. So if your client tells you 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:28.800 that they're guilty, you can't put them on the stand 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.679 and have them say I'm not guilty. And when I 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.399 say guilty and not guilty, I'm talking about the individual 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:41.200 facts of the case. A defendant has the absolute right 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.680 to take the stand and defend themselves in a criminal case. 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.760 So if you get somebody who tells you, I'll just 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.120 use an example of a killing. If somebody tells you, yeah, 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.320 I shot this person, they can't get on the stand 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.359 and say I didn't shoot the person. If they do 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.280 get on the stand in and say I didn't shoot 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.479 the person, and they've already told you and you believe 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.440 that they did shoot the person. While they have the 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.400 abswerutle right to get on the stand, you can ask 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:11.479 them only one question. 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:13.240 What's that question? 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:18.680 That question is what happens. You can't ask them any 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.560 other questions, and you have to be careful how you 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.800 present the case other than that. So knowing that from 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.959 the beginning of my career and knowing that I was 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:36.040 an ethical person. One of the things I try not 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:39.760 to do when I first start to represent somebody is 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:45.359 say are you guilty? A criminal defense attorney's obligations are 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:51.199 ninety nine percent to the clients. That one percent is 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.440 to the court. That you can't let your client lie 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.960 to the court. So I basically tell them that upfront, 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.040 so they know the ground rules of what they should 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:04.159 be telling me and what they shouldn't be telling me. 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:09.000 You represented both Diane, Becky's mom and then my dad. 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.520 What stands out to you about their personalities? Are they similar? 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:15.840 Are they would you say that both narcissists or what 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.080 would be your assessment of the two? 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.879 Well, I would say Diane was a narcissist, and I 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.320 think your dad was too. You know, it's hard to 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.080 your dad owned up to the crimes he did, which 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.840 took a lot of guts. I'll say it this way. 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.320 If Diane is guilty, which in all likelihood she is, 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:42.240 she never owned up to the crime. 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.720 The main focus of Steve's post conviction relief was the 0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.800 forensic evidence presented at trial Christie's testament. It was difficult 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:04.720 to disprove, but Steve knew that blood spatter evidence was controversial. 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:08.480 Well, again, you look at the case and it was 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:11.520 a big case, so there's a lot of paperwork. First 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.480 of all, you have to, you know, read the transcript 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:19.720 of the trial to understand how she got convicted and 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:21.640 the facts that led to her conviction. 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:24.800 What were those Do you remember what those were that 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:25.960 led to her conviction? 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:29.600 Well, I think her daughter testifying that she did it 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:33.720 was the biggest fact, if I remember correctly. And then 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:40.000 there was forensic evidence that tried to disprove her theory 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.159 of the case, and one of the biggest parts of 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:49.080 that was where she said everybody was situated at the 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:52.920 time of the crime, in or out of the car, 0:24:53.760 --> 0:25:00.600 and blood spatter evidence concerning that which came in the trial. 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:05.200 But again, as I said earlier, one of the main 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:09.520 things you look at is in effective assistance of counsul, 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:14.080 meaning what did the original attorney do right and what 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:14.960 did he do wrong? 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:18.040 And what would you say he did? This would be 0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:20.520 Jim Jagger. Would you say he did right? And what 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:21.760 would you say he did wrong? 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:27.439 Well, I do remember looking into the blood spatter, and 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:31.600 I remember at least somewhat concentrating on the blood spatter 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:35.400 that he didn't do that right. I mean, over the years, 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:44.159 there's been some controversy over blood spatter. Forensic people prosecuting 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:49.679 quote unquote scientists believe you can tell a lot about 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:53.760 what goes on from blood spatter. Some people don't believe 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:58.399 it's very scientific at all. But clearly the state tried 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:03.040 to prove that Diane was not telling the truth based 0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:09.560 on where the blood spatter was and how it existed 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.960 in and around the car. Our case was to try 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.399 to show that Jagger didn't do a very good job 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:23.040 in putting holes in the blood spatter testimony of the 0:26:23.080 --> 0:26:24.240 experts in the case. 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.720 What was ultimately her sentence from the dial. 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:35.240 She got life with a minimum I think of fifty years. 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:37.720 So she's contested a lot of different things, and one 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:41.439 of the big issues that was contested. I believe is 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:43.600 that the gun was never found. 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:49.760 I believe I have this feeling that either Diane said 0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:53.920 that the gun was thrown in the river or somehow 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:59.040 that the gun got in the river. Okay, but I 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:06.920 believe the police search the river. But I personally believe 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.400 the guns in the river. I'm not sure I could 0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:11.720 tell you why I believe that, but I think that's 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:12.360 where it is. 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:20.320 Then came the letter. After her conviction, Diane wrote a 0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:24.159 letter to her defense attorney, Jim Jagger, and Diane changes 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:25.920 her story about the night of the shooting. 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:29.679 Well, he's representing her. He had it in his file 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:34.680 and at some point the state asked him for this 0:27:34.800 --> 0:27:38.800 letter and he had to turn it over to the state. 0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:41.879