1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: One thing I learned in representing people at the state 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: hospital and sort of representing people at the state penitentiaries. 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: As Americans, we have taught ourselves that freedom is the 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: most important thing in the world. We want our freedom. 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: We don't want to be in prison or a state hospital, 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: so it's not surprising that someone would want to escape. 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: It didn't do much other than add to her mystique. 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: He had the ability to jump over a fence that 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: had lots of barbed wire on the top and physically 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: be able to do that. My name is Stephen Gorum Gorham. 11 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: I'm an attorney in Salem. I've been an attorney since 12 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. I went to Cornell University as an undergrad, 13 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: and then as a graduate I as a lost school. 14 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: I went to Wilamta University in Salem, Oregon, where I 15 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: have been practicing since nineteen seventy five. 16 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: Steve represented Diane Downs as her post conviction attorney. Post 17 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: conviction attorneys represent a client after the verdict and will 18 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: typically assist a guilty party in making the case that 19 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: they were not adequately represented by their council in the courtroom. 20 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: They try to help them appeal the verdict or provide 21 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: other post conviction relief. 22 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: My first step in representing somebody at the time and 23 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: a post conviction was to go visit them. So I'm 24 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: sure that Dianam was in the Oregon's Correctional Center here 25 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: in Salem. It happens to be about a mile from 26 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: my office on State Street. The women's prison was built 27 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: right next to the Oregon State Penitentiary, right outside their wall. 28 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: The organ State Penitentiary was built in the eighteen hundred sometime, 29 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: and it's on walled prison, and they built the women's 30 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: prison right outside the wall. And the women's prison was 31 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: a one story building with a fence around it. They 32 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: had a small yard that was outside the building. You 33 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: could see the yard from State Street because it's right 34 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: off of State Street, and it was surrounded by a tall, 35 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: chain length fence with barbed wire on the top. 36 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: But that's not where our story in this episode really begins. 37 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: Shortly after Steve took on Diane as a client, she 38 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: escaped from prison. 39 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: So also in nineteen eighty seven, that's when Diane escaped. 40 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: She jumped over the fence. She knew some people, she 41 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: had other inmates at the Oregon State Women's Correctional Center. 42 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: Knew people in Salem, some of whom lived a couple 43 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: of blocks from the women's prison. So there were houses 44 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: that were rental houses on State Street. And when Diane escaped, 45 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: she got picked up by a couple because she was 46 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: either hitch hiking. I'm not sure why they let her out, 47 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: but they didn't take very far they let her out. 48 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Eric Mason was working as a reporter in Oregon at 49 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: the time of Diane's escape. He traveled with a photographer 50 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: around the area to find potential places Diane could have 51 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: escaped too, hoping to be among the first to figure 52 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: out her whereabouts. 53 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: She's at Oregon Women's Correctional Facility and doing the rest 54 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: of her life there. And you know, it's not the 55 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: most high security max facility in the world. There there's 56 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 3: a couple of chain link fences and today it's closed, 57 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 3: but at the time, you know, it was where all 58 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,119 Speaker 3: kinds of women involved in strange crimes were being held. 59 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 3: And so she's been there a while and I think 60 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 3: life is just grinding on for Diane. And just down 61 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 3: the street, I mean literally blocks from the Women's Correctional 62 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 3: for Center are two guys that are semi homeless, working 63 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 3: poor who are there and crazy as it is. Once 64 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: again my path crosses these two people. As I'm devoting 65 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 3: and donating some time down at the Union Gospel Mission 66 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 3: to make dinner and do some other things there for them, 67 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 3: and I need to see guys Wayne, Wayne and Bob, 68 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: and you know, I strike a conversation at the dinner 69 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: hour with them, and they're two very interesting guys, and 70 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: so they begin to tell me about their life. And 71 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 3: the reason I went to go visit their house was 72 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: because there were sources of information about how the world 73 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 3: of drugs worked in this town. 74 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 4: So you saw them as a stringer potentially, well, I 75 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 4: saw them as people who needed help, and obviously they 76 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 4: needed help from the Union Gospel Mission, but they also wanted. 77 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: To tell me stories, and they knew I was a reporter, 78 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: and so I got to know them in the months 79 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 3: leading up to her escape. So when when the escape 80 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: happens and she goes over the wire, it's like, Wow, 81 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: she's got some guts to go straight over the fence. 82 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, you know, fourteen eighteen feet or so. She 83 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 3: goes up and over the top of it and is 84 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 3: out and gone, and day goes by, and two days 85 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: goes by, and I'm thinking, Wow, she might have actually 86 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 3: escaped and got away with it. And so every day 87 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: the assignment was be the first to find Diane and 88 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 3: get it on TV. And if you can't, make sure 89 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 3: you get her arrested being walked in. And so we 90 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: were driving everywhere, myself and the photographer. I remember this. 91 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: We were thinking, Okay, she could be out in from country, 92 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: she could be living down by the Welhama River, she 93 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: could be trying to find the next guy already. And 94 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: so we were. We were trying to check off all 95 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 3: the boxes of things we'd done. And I said to 96 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: the photographer, you wrote around each day with a photog. 97 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: I said, wouldn't it be weird if she ended up 98 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 3: at Wayne's house along the river, just a few blocks 99 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: from the Women's Correctional Center, the prison, and darn it, 100 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: that's where she was. 101 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: Eric offered to show me the area firsthand. So we 102 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: got in this car and toward the area and near 103 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: the prison where Diane flood and then. 104 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 3: There's Mill Creek. You can see Mill Creek, and then 105 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: on the other side of Mill Creek is the women's 106 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: facility and you can see that fence there. 107 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I see the barbarar fence. That's pretty intense. 108 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so at the time though, it was not 109 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: as well fortified as it is now, and Diane just 110 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 3: basically climbed it, hopped over and kept going. 111 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: Surprised at how the prison was like a modern day 112 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: castle with a river moat. 113 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 3: There's big open brush on three sides of the place, 114 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 3: and you'd expect, you would have thought that if someone 115 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 3: wanted to get out of town fast, they'd head towards 116 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: the railroad tracks and into a box car or anything 117 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: getting out of town and taken off. But that's not 118 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: what was going to happen here. And then the state 119 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: police office where they brought her in was right over here, 120 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 3: and that's where I first saw Bob and Wayne being 121 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 3: led away almost as if, you know, they were on 122 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: the same purp walk as Diane downs, but they were 123 00:08:58,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 3: all together right here. 124 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what Bob and Wayne were like, 125 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: these two men who harbor Diane after her escape. 126 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: Bob was you know, studious looking and you know, had 127 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: glasses and kind of looked like a computer geek. And 128 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 3: Wayne was a fairly decent looking individual and looked like 129 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 3: he could be a landscaper, you know, in southern California, 130 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: And they really did have little odd jobs every day 131 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: that they would do, but they never really made enough 132 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: money to have a nice place, and so they had 133 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 3: this tiny little hovel along Mill Creek and then would 134 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 3: go down and have dinner at the Union Gospel Mission 135 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 3: and that was their life. So they have a notorious 136 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 3: convicted killer show up in the middle of the night 137 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 3: at their house. You know, it was quite a surprise, 138 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: but you know, they certainly weren't going to throw her 139 00:09:53,760 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: out either. I think what was later determined was that 140 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: she used the creek Mill Creek to be able to 141 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: confound the dogs, and she knew enough about tracking that 142 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 3: she went down that creek, and so I think one 143 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: of the first things she did is she got rid 144 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: of her clothes and I think left them in the water. 145 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 3: I'm not sure how what level of nakedness that she was, 146 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: but when she showed up at Bob and Wayne's place, 147 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: she was cold, didn't have her clothes or most of them, 148 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: and just needed to get warm in a place to stay. 149 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 3: And I believe I'm going to have to go back 150 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 3: to check to see this is true. That she had 151 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 3: some correspondence with people outside the prison. It was a 152 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 3: pen pal, and I'm not sure how that worked into it, 153 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: but they finally looked at her tablet and began to 154 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: figure out who she'd been talking with, and so that's 155 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: what helped them figure out part of you know, what 156 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 3: her plans were and how to she was getting out 157 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: and whatnot. 158 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 2: Though that Wayne said he fell in love. 159 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: With her, yes, and so I remember Wayne almost thinking 160 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: and saying things to the effect of, I couldn't believe 161 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 3: my good fortune. You know, here I am a marginally 162 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: employed but mostly homeless man in Salem, Oregon. 163 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 5: And. 164 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 3: The woman of my dreams comes walking through the door 165 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: almost half naked. 166 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: From what I read with Wayne, it's not like Wayne 167 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: and Diane had a relationship. Diane was sleeping with Wayne, 168 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: so I don't think he would easily give her up 169 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: if that was the case. 170 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: That's true. I think Wayne was the type of guy 171 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: who was street smart and really didn't like snitches or 172 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 3: people that turned other people in, and so yeah, I 173 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 3: would imagine he kept things pretty quiet. What I really 174 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: can't believe is that, given the search that was done, 175 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: that for those days following the escape, she stayed right 176 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: where she was a non founder. That's the part that's 177 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: amazing that she was able to basically hide right here 178 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 3: in plain sight. See, I think it's okay. So here's 179 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 3: where we go over the creek. You can see it's 180 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: very vegetative down there, and someone just walking up that 181 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: creek would have tried to find someone's back porch, which 182 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 3: she did. 183 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 2: So this neighborhood is cute. It looks like it's the 184 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: older neighborhood with little bungalows. That actually looks very different 185 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: than what I thought it would look like in my head, 186 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 2: because these houses are just adorable, like painted little ladies, right. 187 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 3: And then the ones that are right on the creek, 188 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: some of them are just like an outbuilding to another house. 189 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 2: Oh okay, I see here at the creek, just some. 190 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: Of these See this little building. 191 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 2: Here, Oh yeah, it looks like an outhouse attached to 192 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 2: this house. 193 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: It's just a little outbuilding like a shed. And that's 194 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: what those two. It was very much like a shed. 195 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: And you can see the water. You know, someone could 196 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: just sort of swim along this creek and their scent 197 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: you couldn't follow that trail. And I think that's I 198 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 3: think that's what she was able to. 199 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: Do after she was captured. Diane's brother James, was one 200 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 2: of the only people close to her who was able 201 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: to speak to her about the escape. 202 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 6: I wish she'd call me, That's what I said at 203 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 6: the time. Actually, I remember that. I remember it. I 204 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 6: was working, and I was working at a place in 205 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 6: San Joaquin Valley, California. You know, I wanted to take 206 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 6: her to Canada, take her to Mexico, or just take 207 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 6: her away from here and to where she'd be safe. 208 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 6: And but yeah, she didn't. 209 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: Obviously, What did you think when she was found? 210 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 6: I've had conversations there about this. I thought, it's not 211 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 6: surprising she was caught. I guess, you know, she's looking 212 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 6: for affection, and she's looking for love. You know, she's 213 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 6: just looking to be hell and tell everything's gonna be okay, 214 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 6: you know. And I guess maybe that's why I want 215 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 6: her to call me, so I could tell her that. 216 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: What were your conversations about about that time that she escaped. 217 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 6: That she scaled over the walls and took off and 218 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 6: she was gonna go there, And she said, oh my god, 219 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 6: what do I do? Now? You know what I mean? 220 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 6: Best like plans. It's like she get over and it's like, 221 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 6: oh shit, where am I gonna go? And I mean, 222 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 6: even if you go to the house you have in 223 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 6: mind to go to, it's like, what's your next Her 224 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 6: next plan was to find the person that did this, 225 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 6: and every time she said that to herself, it is like, 226 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 6: how do you do that? You know what I mean? 227 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 6: And so she got to this person's house and was 228 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 6: shocking up with this guy and never got to the 229 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 6: part of finding the person that did this. 230 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: Well, she also had tons of authorities looking for her, 231 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: so I don't. 232 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 6: See what I mean. It's like, you get over the 233 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 6: fence and it's like, oh my goodness, gracious, what do you. 234 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: Don't even father than like the men's. 235 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 6: Sixteen foot tall with circular razor wire on the top 236 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 6: of there's two of them. How did she do it? 237 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 6: She through through something over the top and just climbed over. Literally, 238 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 6: she just climbed over to sixteen foot fences with circular, 239 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 6: not barbed wire, but razor wire on top of them. 240 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: Once caught, Diana was transferred to another prison under the 241 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: Interstate Compact, likely to prevent the organ Women's Penitentiary from 242 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: receiving any additional public attention that arose from her presence there. 243 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: You know, they sent her to New Jersey after her escape, 244 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: which is semi surprising in the sense it's not so 245 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: surprising that they sent her out of town because at 246 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: the time our women's prison was you know, not the 247 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: most sure. And the interstate compact is basically like baseball 248 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: trading or football trading. You know, you trade an inmate 249 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: for another inmate, and that's pretty what it is. 250 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 7: I read records that that knew that there was a 251 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 7: lot of rejections for who would house Diane Downs after 252 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 7: the escape, and that New Jersey said, we will take 253 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 7: Diane if we could send you to inmates when we 254 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 7: have the need, when the need. 255 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I'm relatively sure they moved Diane 256 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: to get her out of town so that the publicity 257 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: wasn't always there. And again originally because she had escapes, 258 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of times they they do the prisoner 259 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 1: swaps or the interstate compact to try to get a 260 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: new environment for the inmate. They will, you know, maybe 261 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: under different circumstances in a different prison state, they will 262 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, get better whatever that means. I'm sure no 263 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: one wanted to take Diane because of the publicity. And 264 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: then you know, she tried to escape that prison. 265 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 7: Oh I didn't know that. 266 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you didn't know she tried to escape New Jersey. No, 267 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: but while she was in New Jersey, she had a 268 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: personal relationship with a man who was a helicopter pilot 269 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: who was going to steal a helicopter and land in 270 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: New Jersey and escape with Diane again. And he gave 271 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: that conspiracy up. I'm not going to get this right, 272 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: you know, a couple months before it was supposed to 273 00:18:53,880 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: go into practice because of something that happened. He didn't caught. 274 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: He confessed and turned himself in, and he may have 275 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: been from Seattle. A lot of these details aren't there, 276 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: but I know I went to see her in the 277 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: New Jersey prison after she was there, before this escape attempt, 278 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: because I was back visiting my family and it was 279 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: just easy for me to do to visit her. And 280 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to visit her just because, you know, mainly 281 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: to see what a New Jersey prison looked like. And 282 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: then when this escape attempt happened, it was just weird, 283 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: you know. And that's when she got sent to the 284 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: California Prison, which is, as I understand it, and I 285 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: don't know that this is true, the worst women's prison 286 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: in the world early in the United States. 287 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 7: I'll to do some research on that. I know that 288 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 7: I was talking to the infamous Betty Boderic and she's 289 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 7: housed with Diane. Well not they're not like cellmates or anything, 290 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 7: but they actually know each other in that prison, which 291 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 7: is interesting to me. But how you know different inmates 292 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 7: are connected. 293 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, And as I said, I went through some of 294 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: these records on ogin and some of the things that 295 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: she was claiming. Again I didn't go and see any 296 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: of the details, but she's claiming, you know that she was, 297 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, a cellmate of hers and this quote direc lady. 298 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: You know, I think dreaming up all sorts of conspiracy 299 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: theories concerning who she's been selled with. 300 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 2: Initially, Steve reserved his opinions on Diane's guilt, going solely 301 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 2: off the court's verdict. His principles as an attorney prevented 302 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: him from taking certain actions as a client directly admitted 303 00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: guilt to him. 304 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: Well, her daughter said that she was the perpetrator. Diane 305 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: always said at least at that time, or it was 306 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: the bushy haired stranger. I believe I'm an ethical attorney, 307 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: and an ethical attorney can't have his client get on 308 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: the stand and lie. So if your client tells you 309 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: that they're guilty, you can't put them on the stand 310 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: and have them say I'm not guilty. And when I 311 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: say guilty and not guilty, I'm talking about the individual 312 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: facts of the case. A defendant has the absolute right 313 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: to take the stand and defend themselves in a criminal case. 314 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: So if you get somebody who tells you, I'll just 315 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 1: use an example of a killing. If somebody tells you, yeah, 316 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: I shot this person, they can't get on the stand 317 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: and say I didn't shoot the person. If they do 318 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: get on the stand in and say I didn't shoot 319 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,479 Speaker 1: the person, and they've already told you and you believe 320 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: that they did shoot the person. While they have the 321 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: abswerutle right to get on the stand, you can ask 322 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:11,479 Speaker 1: them only one question. 323 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 7: What's that question? 324 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: That question is what happens. You can't ask them any 325 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: other questions, and you have to be careful how you 326 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: present the case other than that. So knowing that from 327 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 1: the beginning of my career and knowing that I was 328 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: an ethical person. One of the things I try not 329 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: to do when I first start to represent somebody is 330 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: say are you guilty? A criminal defense attorney's obligations are 331 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent to the clients. That one percent is 332 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: to the court. That you can't let your client lie 333 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: to the court. So I basically tell them that upfront, 334 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: so they know the ground rules of what they should 335 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: be telling me and what they shouldn't be telling me. 336 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 7: You represented both Diane, Becky's mom and then my dad. 337 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 7: What stands out to you about their personalities? Are they similar? 338 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 7: Are they would you say that both narcissists or what 339 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 7: would be your assessment of the two? 340 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: Well, I would say Diane was a narcissist, and I 341 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: think your dad was too. You know, it's hard to 342 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: your dad owned up to the crimes he did, which 343 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: took a lot of guts. I'll say it this way. 344 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: If Diane is guilty, which in all likelihood she is, 345 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: she never owned up to the crime. 346 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: The main focus of Steve's post conviction relief was the 347 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: forensic evidence presented at trial Christie's testament. It was difficult 348 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: to disprove, but Steve knew that blood spatter evidence was controversial. 349 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: Well, again, you look at the case and it was 350 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: a big case, so there's a lot of paperwork. First 351 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: of all, you have to, you know, read the transcript 352 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: of the trial to understand how she got convicted and 353 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: the facts that led to her conviction. 354 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 7: What were those Do you remember what those were that 355 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 7: led to her conviction? 356 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: Well, I think her daughter testifying that she did it 357 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: was the biggest fact, if I remember correctly. And then 358 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: there was forensic evidence that tried to disprove her theory 359 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: of the case, and one of the biggest parts of 360 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: that was where she said everybody was situated at the 361 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: time of the crime, in or out of the car, 362 00:24:53,760 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: and blood spatter evidence concerning that which came in the trial. 363 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: But again, as I said earlier, one of the main 364 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: things you look at is in effective assistance of counsul, 365 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: meaning what did the original attorney do right and what 366 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: did he do wrong? 367 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 7: And what would you say he did? This would be 368 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 7: Jim Jagger. Would you say he did right? And what 369 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 7: would you say he did wrong? 370 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: Well, I do remember looking into the blood spatter, and 371 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: I remember at least somewhat concentrating on the blood spatter 372 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: that he didn't do that right. I mean, over the years, 373 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: there's been some controversy over blood spatter. Forensic people prosecuting 374 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: quote unquote scientists believe you can tell a lot about 375 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: what goes on from blood spatter. Some people don't believe 376 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: it's very scientific at all. But clearly the state tried 377 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: to prove that Diane was not telling the truth based 378 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: on where the blood spatter was and how it existed 379 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: in and around the car. Our case was to try 380 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: to show that Jagger didn't do a very good job 381 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: in putting holes in the blood spatter testimony of the 382 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: experts in the case. 383 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 7: What was ultimately her sentence from the dial. 384 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: She got life with a minimum I think of fifty years. 385 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 7: So she's contested a lot of different things, and one 386 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 7: of the big issues that was contested. I believe is 387 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 7: that the gun was never found. 388 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: I believe I have this feeling that either Diane said 389 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: that the gun was thrown in the river or somehow 390 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: that the gun got in the river. Okay, but I 391 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: believe the police search the river. But I personally believe 392 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: the guns in the river. I'm not sure I could 393 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: tell you why I believe that, but I think that's 394 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: where it is. 395 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: Then came the letter. After her conviction, Diane wrote a 396 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 2: letter to her defense attorney, Jim Jagger, and Diane changes 397 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: her story about the night of the shooting. 398 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 5: Well, he's representing her. He had it in his file 399 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 5: and at some point the state asked him for this 400 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 5: letter and he had to turn it over to the state. 401 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 5: And this is the importance of this letter to me. 402 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 5: It may be not important to anybody else, but to me. 403 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 5: If you remember, after the children were shot and they 404 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 5: were on the road next to the Mackenzie Highway, she's 405 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 5: driving to the hospital in Springfield slowly. And at the trial, 406 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 5: someone who followed her, I think a man maybe in 407 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 5: a pickup truck who was following her, said she's driven 408 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 5: this person. She didn't know her from Adam. This person's 409 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 5: driving very slowly. Something's going on, you know. So they 410 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 5: used the state argued, I think that she was driving 411 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 5: very slowly to the hospital so that children would die. Yeah. 412 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 5: I can't remember how she explained it. Probably she just 413 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 5: didn't know where she was or whatever, you know, the 414 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 5: trauma of it. This letter basically says that somebody in 415 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 5: the pickup truck was following her on the road. This 416 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 5: is before the killing. He passed her, then he slowed down, 417 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: she passed him. I may not be right about that part. 418 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 5: And then she stopped because she was interested in this guy. 419 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 7: So you put your children in danger in the middle 420 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 7: of the night to stop for. 421 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: Then I did it. 422 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 5: I think I knew about this letter. But if I 423 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 5: didn't know about the letter, then I think her change 424 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 5: in her story. And this letter is important in my 425 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 5: mind because it really describes the slow driving before the crime, 426 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 5: and that she was interested in just picking up this 427 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 5: guy who was in this pickup truck, and she basically, 428 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 5: you know, since then after she stopped and met this guy, 429 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 5: then he became the pushy head stranger and he's the 430 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 5: one who shot the kids. 431 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: The letter starts out with an almost confessional tone. It 432 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: begins November seventh, nineteen eighty four, Salem, Organ. Dear Jim, 433 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how to start this letter, but 434 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: I guess the best way to make an apology is 435 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: to say I'm sorry. Now you're probably wondering what this 436 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: is all about, and when you're through reading, you'll probably 437 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: drop this letter and say damn you, Diane, like you 438 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: have so many times before your blood pressure will go up. 439 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: And I'm sorry about that too. I'm sorry about a 440 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: lot of things. Really, I only hope that you will 441 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: forgive me for not being totally honest with you. It's 442 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 2: just that it's so hard for me to put myself 443 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: in someone else's hands. I find it hard to fully 444 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: trust anyone not to hurt me. I needed to control 445 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: myself and the situation, and I've been that way for 446 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: a few years. It has been a hard lesson to learn, 447 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 2: and I can't guarantee I'll be cured forever. But I 448 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: know now that I should have placed this whole problem 449 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: in your hands and let you deal with it. But 450 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: I was afraid. Silly, maybe, but I was afraid you 451 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: would lose respect for me, and well, let me explain. 452 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: The letter goes on to retail Diane's version of what 453 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: took place the night of the shooting. She states that 454 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 2: the shaggy hair stranger was actually a man who was 455 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: driving behind her on the road. According to her, he 456 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 2: passed her and slowed down. It was kind of a 457 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: flirtatious dance between the two cars, and she eventually pulled over. 458 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 2: She claims the man wanted weed and when she opened 459 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: the trunk, he took out the case containing Steve's gun. 460 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: After making advances on Diane, he proceeded to shoot her 461 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: and her children one by one before fleeing. That's really 462 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: interesting reading the letter. What's really interesting to me? 463 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, well, I mean to a criminal defense attorney, 464 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 5: it's a damning letter. And who knows what else she 465 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 5: had told Jim Jagger, and he obviously did his best 466 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 5: in representing her. I think some places in the letter 467 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 5: she said she's told them several stories or something like that. 468 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 5: It would have been hard for him, so. 469 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: Steve tried to remain an ethical attorney and go on 470 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 2: the basis of Diane's proclamation of innocence. The letter finally 471 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 2: convinced him of her guilt. The change in her story 472 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: from what she claimed multiple times in trial and to 473 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: the press showed Steve that Dian most likely wasn't telling 474 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 2: the truth and potentially never had. He doesn't believe she'll 475 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: do well at her future parole hearings. 476 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: No, and I don't believe she will have a chance. 477 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: First of all, again, the pro board over the years 478 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: has been very conservative. I wouldn't say the parole board 479 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: has ever been liberal in the state of Oregon, So 480 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: they do look at I mean, a parole board should 481 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: be looking at the person, the individual. What you should 482 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 1: be looking at is, of course the crime, the effect 483 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: of the crime, especially these days, on the victims. And 484 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, it used to be the victims really didn't 485 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: much matter. And then we went through a phase that 486 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: still exists of victims' rights. And part of that is 487 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: the parle board wants you to come clean if they 488 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: believe that you're guilty of the crime. They want you 489 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: to say you're guilty of the crime and show remorse 490 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: for your guilt. So the fact that Diane has yet 491 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: to show much remorse or so show that she is guilty, 492 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: it's going to be hard for her to get out 493 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: on parole by any parole board. And frankly, especially crimes 494 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: that have such publicity concerning them, I don't believe that 495 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: she'll ever get out on parole. 496 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: Diane Downs was denied paroled in two thousand and eight 497 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: and again in twenty ten. Dan's parole board hearing took 498 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: place just recently September twenty third, she was denied parole. 499 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 2: On the next episode, Michelle presents Becky with the conclusion 500 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 2: of her efforts to trace Becky's paternity and identify her 501 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: biological father. Also coming in a few days a bonus episode, 502 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: the bizarre letter Diane Downs wrote to Jim Jagger read 503 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 2: in its entirety. Although we were unable to present the 504 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 2: entire letter in this episode due to time constraints, we 505 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: feel that you, the listener, should hear this bizarre retelling 506 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 2: of the night of the crime in Diane's own words,