1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Ah Beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not 2 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software a Gradio Special Operations, 3 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: Military news and straight Talk with the guys and the 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: community Software Radio on Time on Target. I am Ian 5 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: Scotto here with Jack Burphy as usual. Uh. This show 6 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: is brought to you by air Drop. Air Drop is 7 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 1: a new section on crate Club where you can find 8 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: a central gear and Killer apparel that you can buy 9 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: separately from our monthly and quarterly club subscriptions. There's some 10 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: great stuff in there that's heavily discounted, but a lot 11 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: of these items sell out quick, so you really got 12 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: to act now. For example, you've got a few more 13 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: cry Precision Ballistic soft armor inserts and create Club fishing spears, 14 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: but other items like that Gerber multi tool, those are gone. 15 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: It's up on its own section on crate Club dot us, 16 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: or you can go to the store dot crate Club 17 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: dot us link that store dot crate Club dot us 18 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: to check it all out once again. Store dot crate 19 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: Club dot us. Tons of gear you're gonna love right 20 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: there on an air drop. We have Thomas Pecora coming 21 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: on this show. Excellent response to the show's last week 22 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: they're getting a lot of plays. Actually, for the first 23 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: time checked out our stats on Spotify because it was 24 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: kind of like a slow build up on Spotify, and it's, uh, 25 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: it's really building, uh like a lot of followers if 26 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: you listen on Spotify. And the cool thing about Spotify 27 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: that other channels don't have is it gives you a 28 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: pretty like uh complete rundown of who your listeners are, 29 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:33,119 Speaker 1: and it's like percent mail. But like, I was sort 30 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: of surprised because we have a lot of female listeners 31 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: who are like hardcore fans that tweet us about every 32 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: show and stuff like that, but it's still a like 33 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: predominantly predominantly male fan base. And then it was like 34 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: zero percent non binary, non gender specific. So it's just 35 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: how does Spotify even like measure that I wonder? I 36 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: think when you sign up you have to enter your gender, 37 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, because it also has the demographics 38 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: of age, you know, and our listeners are mainly it's 39 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: like to probably forty. That's like the bulk of the demographic. 40 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: It's cool to see all that. Uh So it was 41 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: my first time looking at that in a while. But 42 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: it's just the players are are tremendous this past week. 43 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: I mean it's I believe, like a hundred thousand plays 44 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: the past week. It's doing awesome. Yeah, I'm very excited 45 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: for how big this thing has gotten. Um. The big 46 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: news today that I heard that you heard last night, 47 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: actually they sent over to me, is that Michael Behannah 48 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: has been pardoned by President Trump. We had first Lieutenant 49 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: Michael Behenna on way back. I was looking five years 50 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: ago on episode eighty eight, a very long time ago, 51 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: which was when he was first released and he served 52 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: five years of a fifteen year since in Fort Leavenworth 53 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: for murdering are allegedly murdering you know, the known terrorist 54 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: Ali Mansor Mohammed, which he said was in self defense. 55 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: I reached out to Vicky Behennah, who is the contact 56 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: I had his mother. Uh, they're doing, of course, some 57 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: big things that they're doing, Hannity, but I might be 58 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: able to get her on or him on um the 59 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: next episode. No, I'd love to follow up on that because, 60 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: like you said, it was five years ago. Yeah, we 61 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 1: interviewed him. It was like right after he got paroled out. Yes, yeah, yeah, 62 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: it was pretty much immediately I was looking at the 63 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: story we I think we were one of the first 64 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: who had him on. Yeah, So I mean that's like 65 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: one of those stories that's good for us to follow 66 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: up on. I think, yeah, And I think they were 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: kind of loyal to UH. I would say me because 68 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: of the fact that I heard about Behnna's case actually 69 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: on Michael Savage is the radio show. And you know, 70 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: it's funny, like people kind of criticized talk radio for 71 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: being incendiary and stuff, but sometimes these type of cases 72 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: are only covered on like conservative talk radio. Mainstream media 73 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: wasn't talking about Michael Behannah UH when he was when 74 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: he was in Fort leaven Worth, Michael Savage was one 75 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,679 Speaker 1: of the only guys I know of who was talking 76 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: about this. So I heard about it from there. I 77 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: was producing David Webb show. I wanted to get Vicky 78 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: Behanna on to talk about it, and I stayed in 79 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: contact with her. So when he was released, I was 80 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: able the text Vicky his mother and ask if we 81 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: can get him on, and she uh pulled through and yeah, 82 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: I just texted her and congratulations and she's like, I'll 83 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: actually read the text of what she said. UM. Yeah, 84 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: I mean in the meantime, listeners can go back and 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: listen to what is an episode eight. Yeah, she just said, 86 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: thank you, Ian, We're so very happy. So yeah, no, 87 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: I bet you know. Um, it's symbolic in some ways 88 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: because he's already out of prison sort of the sentence, 89 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: but now he doesn't have a criminal record anymore because 90 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: he's been pardoned. So I'm sure it means a lot 91 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: to him and his family. I wonder how this has 92 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: brought to Trump's attention. And the thing is, I would 93 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: not be surprised if it was that talk radio has 94 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: a ear, you know, of President Trump. The fact that 95 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: guys that we know have been to the White House 96 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 1: and have gotten a chance to talk to President Trump 97 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: about issues that are of concern, and like I said, 98 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: he's going to be on Hannity today, I would not 99 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: be shocked if someone like Sean Hannity said, hey, this 100 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: is an important thing. People who um are pro military 101 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: are behind this guy. It would it would be a 102 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: great symbolic gesture to pardon him, and it wouldn't surprise me. 103 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: I think it speaks to Trump's bass um, so I 104 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: would expect to see him do more of that. I honestly, 105 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: I think the play that President Trump is gonna make 106 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: is to pardon Eddie Gallagher during the reelection campaign. Um, 107 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: whatever you think about um chief Gallagher. And I don't 108 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: uh know if the guy is innocent or guilty, which 109 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: is why I've avoided playing Barracks lawyer on this podcast. 110 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: Um to some people's chagrin. But um, you know I 111 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: was saying yesterday, you know, people get mad at me 112 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: because I haven't like had a passionate stance on this thing. 113 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: And it's like they want me to wear the free 114 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: Eddie shirt and it's like, hey, man, like I'm a journalist, 115 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: I have to be a little bit more impartial and 116 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: unbiased about it. But um, you know that's gonna play 117 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: out in court. His trial comes up in July. I 118 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: believe I would not be surprised is the fact think 119 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: gets dragged out and appeals and things like that. If 120 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: Trump plays that up um as much as he can 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: and then pardons him during his reelection campaign, A lot 122 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: of people are behind him. And I think people who 123 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: don't even know the full story, they do have an 124 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: emotional response to it. It's a n A B C 125 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: O um who they feel as being treated unfairly, and 126 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: people who are pro military are oftentimes, you know, I 127 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: get it to some extent, but like I had somebody 128 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: come at me like, oh, it seems like the prosecutors 129 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: are just trying to get a conviction. It's like, buddy, 130 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: do you know how our legal system works. Prosecutors try 131 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: to get convictions, the defense tries to get a not 132 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: guilty verdict. Like that is that is due process. That 133 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: is part of our legal system. And like, if you're 134 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: getting mad about this stuff, I mean, I mean, I 135 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: understand that there's frustration, there's anger, and I understand that 136 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,119 Speaker 1: Eddie Gallagher's family is going through a lot of ship 137 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: and I don't judge them for defending their family member. 138 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're right to do that, right, But 139 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: there are some folks out there just like ranting, and 140 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: it's like, man, you need to go back to like 141 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: take a Civics one oh one course and learn about 142 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: how your government and how your justice system works before 143 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: you start getting like you're getting mad that prosecutors are 144 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: looking to prosecute that. I don't know what to tell 145 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: you about that. By the way, I just received the 146 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: text from Vicky behenna Um it's about coming on for 147 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: our next episode. She said, I could try give me 148 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: the time I may have to be in court, So 149 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: I'll text her back after this show, Uh, figure out 150 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: a time. I just said it would be interesting if 151 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: he if he or Vicky comes on on Thursday, uh 152 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: for the Friday show, because we also have Fred Galvin 153 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: coming on. And Fred Galvin and Michael Vehenna are kind 154 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: of in the same category of guys who accused of 155 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: war crimes. Yeah, accused of war crimes. Benna actually served 156 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: time in Fort Leavenworth and and Galvin was exonerated his 157 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: memory exonerate. Yeah, but it deeply affected both of them. 158 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: As we know Galvin for a while, when you googled him, 159 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: people thought war criminal. So I mean I told I 160 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: told Fred when we had him on the first time. 161 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: I was like, that's what I had always heard about 162 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: the first Marsoc deployment, is that you guys were just 163 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: cowboys just running and gunning, you know, gunning down villagers, 164 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: and all of that turned out to be false. Yeah. Um, 165 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: all right, I have some great emails to get to, 166 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: so let's get to that. But I'm actually gonna open 167 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: these windows because it is yeah, sure fucking stuff in here. 168 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: Language Please languaging. There's kids listening to this. Okay, we're 169 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: we're family show Family Showy. Leave that in here and 170 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: been editing it out. I don't even do what you want. 171 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think people are used to just putting 172 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: up with our bullshit on the show. You know, I 173 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: feel the windows. I'm like, if you do, I'm gonna 174 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: spend a big story, you know, like I don't even 175 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: look directly down like well as a It was all 176 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: too much for Ian. He threw himself out the window. 177 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: It was because we didn't get enough five star ratings 178 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: on our podcast reviews on on iTunes, and Ian just jumped. 179 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: He said, fuck it, I'm officially keeping this all in 180 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: and I was gonna edit it out, but it's been 181 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: been amusing, so you guys could hear what I usually 182 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: would edit out. I'm gonna have remember Ian t shirts 183 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: on start selling them. No profits to my family, no 184 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: profits to to the Ian Charitable Fund. Um, I'm gonna 185 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: take that and I'm gonna go spend it at gentleman's clubs. Nice, 186 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: you have my approval now, uh like uh oral consent 187 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: or something on the podcast. So all right, um, let's 188 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: get into this email sent to soft Rep dot Radio 189 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: at soft rep dot com. Uh, this one is from Josh. 190 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: Hello Jack and I and I have a couple of 191 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: questions for Jack, what stance do you take on foreign 192 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: intervention when it comes to counter terrorism? Now that the 193 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: g WATT is tech think we over Is there a 194 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: better method of using spectral forces to train FIDE I 195 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: think you've said this before. What is for those foreign 196 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: internal defense okay and host nation military units than what 197 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: we have been doing? Uh? What steps can the US 198 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: take in foreign affairs to improve results and effectiveness encountering 199 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: terror groups? I know it's a lot for Q and 200 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: A on the podcast. Thank you for your time. Keep 201 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: up the great work. Josh. Yeah, that's a huge, huge question. 202 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: I mean that's like the quandary of our time since 203 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: nine eleven. UM. I think that there's a number of 204 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: things that you can do to try to reduce terrorism. UM. 205 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: That's why we've been active in North Africa and we've 206 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: had soldiers deployed to a Niger, Brikina FASO. UM. What 207 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: are some of the other adjoining countries where we have 208 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: guys Molly. UM, the Europeans have been active in Central 209 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: African Republic because these are at risk populations, um because 210 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: of the encroaching Islamic fundamentalism combined with the inherent poverty 211 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: of the region that makes people susceptible. So we've been 212 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: trying to head start on it, you know, try to 213 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: intervene before one of these countries turns into you know, 214 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: the next Afghanistan and you have like terrorist training camps 215 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: and all sorts of crazy ship So we're trying to 216 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: get ahead of the ball there. UM To counter terrorism 217 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: it requires, um, you know, a holistic approach that addresses 218 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: the social, political, economic, and UM security aspects of these countries. 219 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: And we some of sometimes we don't do a very 220 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: good job with that. UM. Our efforts UM are discombobulated, 221 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: they are not unified. UM. But other times it's also 222 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, the host nation has a say in all 223 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: of this too, and if that host nation is just 224 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: completely corrupt, then uh, it may be very difficult for 225 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: us to operate effectively there and to help them help themselves. 226 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean it might not if you're giving them money 227 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: for counter terrorism endeavors, but some ministers putting it all 228 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: in his pocket and then going to live in exile 229 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: in Paris, Like Okay, it doesn't matter, you know, how 230 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: good a job we do at that point. UM. From 231 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: a military or a special operations aspect, I would just 232 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: say that I think there's a real value in an 233 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: importance in persistent long term engagement, meaning that we have specialists. UM. 234 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: You could say, we have let's say we have O. D. 235 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: A's that specialized in a country, and they go back 236 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: to that country time and time and time again, and 237 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: they build relationships. UM. You know, so the the young 238 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: would say, uh, soldier they trained in that country twenty 239 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: years later is the general in charge of their armed forces, 240 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: and we have that long term relationship with that person 241 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: and with those people, with those troops that we built. 242 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: I'm a big advocate of replicating the UM the Special 243 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: Forces detachment career model that we have these UM Special 244 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: Forces soldiers and ones and twos even that are peeled 245 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: off and they are embedded inside South Korean battalions and brigades, 246 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: and those personnel rotate in and out, but we have 247 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: that persist long term engagement. And I think we should 248 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: set up resident teams like that in other countries. UM. 249 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: We have guys in the Philippines, for example, UM Special 250 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: Forces mar socks seals going back and forth, and they 251 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: do great work over there. But I think we should 252 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: have a resident team there, I think, and there's all 253 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: many other countries around the world where we should have 254 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: resident teams that operate in that same manner to keep 255 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: that kind of persistent engagement rather than like a stop start, 256 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, stutter stepping kind of approach. Alright, great, great 257 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: answer there, Uh and pretty in depth. So another another 258 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: question here and you'll laugh at some of this. Uh. 259 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: This is from Joseph Parish. I wanted to add my 260 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: compliments and respect to the pile that you've accumulated in 261 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: regards to Murphy's Law. I've been a fan and listened 262 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: faithfully for what I think is six or seven years estimation. 263 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: I assumed things about you. For instance, I used to 264 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: call you a liberal. Now after reading your book, I 265 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: realized have stupid. That assumption was My apologies for that. 266 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: There's so many stories hidden within you. It's impressive how 267 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: this book is the first I've ever read or heard 268 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: about these exploits. You seem to be an old man 269 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: trapped in a young man's body, archaic soul. The audio 270 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: book with your narration really brings this to life. Uh 271 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: for first I read, then I listened. Jack, Please do 272 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: all you can to keep the podcast alive and moving. 273 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: I still don't want to accept Ian Leathan, sorry, but 274 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: I have to. I'll miss in and follow his next project, 275 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: but I don't want software completely remodeled. Much respect to 276 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: Joseph Parish, Yeah, man, thank you so much. Like that 277 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: means a lot to me. And I've heard a lot 278 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: of feedback about the book, and um, there's a lot 279 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: of real talk in the book and people have responded 280 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: to it. And you never really know how that's gonna 281 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: go down or people gonna be like, oh, I wanted 282 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: more you know, blood splatter, and you know I could 283 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: it should be about you face shooting terrorists and nothing else. 284 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of real talk in the book 285 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: and people responded to it and it really connected with 286 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: people and I think in a meaningful way. And I've 287 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of messages and stuff like that. Um, 288 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: if you guys read the book, I mean I appreciate 289 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: if you can drop a review on Amazon that like 290 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: really helps the book get some traction. And um, just 291 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: like reading the reviews and the private messages and d 292 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: M s and stuff I've gotten it's all been like 293 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: super positive. Um, and it's just funny. And I get 294 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: it's not really funny, but I just say this too. Um, 295 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: all the other guys out there who are kind of 296 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: like holding these stories and I mean they're like Vietnam 297 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: veterans who like held it in for fifty years before 298 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: they talk to anybody about the war. Um. Like you said, 299 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: I never really talked about a lot of this stuff, 300 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: and I finally wrote it in the book, and it 301 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: was like, man, like, it's all this stuff that you're 302 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: kind of like holding onto. Um. And then when you 303 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: got even even in your personal life, stuff you don't 304 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah. Yeah. And then when like I published 305 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: it put it out into the world, it's in every 306 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: bookstore in the country, I guess right now. And you know, 307 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: everyone can go and listen to the audio book or 308 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: buy the e book or whatever. It's out there now. 309 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: And it's like at the end, it's like really not 310 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: that big a deal, you know, Like I was kind 311 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: of building things up into my head and I should have. 312 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not that I was ever like just 313 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: like like I said in the first chapter of the book, 314 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: the in the in the prologue. It's just like I 315 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: avoided it, like I didn't want to like confront some 316 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: of those things. So I'm glad that I did, and 317 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: I'm glad that other people are reading it, and I'm 318 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: glad that they're, you know, taking something away from the book. So, um, 319 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: thanks for reaching out man. It's awesome. Yeah, I mean, 320 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: how does it feel to kind of fulfill this dream? 321 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure you know people do dream of having a 322 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: book that's out on a major publisher, getting a lot 323 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: of press, and you're living it right now. This is 324 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 1: like a chapter of your life book right now that 325 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: you accomplished this goal. Yeah for sure. I mean it 326 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: was never like like a specific goal like I want 327 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: to be published through a big, big publishing house. But 328 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: I mean it's to walk into a bookstore like your 329 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: books like gray Matter, Splatter, if you walk into a 330 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: Barnes and Noble, you're not gonna be able to you know, 331 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: You're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a big deal. And 332 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: I mean maybe it hasn't like totally struckholm how big 333 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: a deal it is quite yet. Um, but uh, it's incredible. 334 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: It's surreal. I mean, I sent um, I mailed I've 335 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: mailed out a lot of books to my friends as well, 336 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: like former teammates and stuff like that. And uh, I 337 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: actually was able to sign a book and mail it 338 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: out to a retired operator, um the other day. And uh. 339 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: It was a guy who is mentioned in the book, 340 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: but he's not mentioned by name, um because I'm not gonna, 341 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, drop down on this guy. Um. He's a 342 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: really good guy, really low key, down to earth dude. Um. 343 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: But some of the stuff this guy did, like if 344 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: it was in a novel or in a movie, like 345 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe it. Like there's a vision people have, 346 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: like the public has in their mind of like what 347 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: Special Operations is like. And the reality I feel is 348 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: more like my book where yeah there's some moments out 349 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: of a recruitment commercial, but it's also a lot of 350 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: other ship. Right. Well, this guy, his career is kind 351 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: of what people think it is, like he did some wild, 352 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: wild stuff. Um. So I was really happy that I 353 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: was able to mail him a book uh the other day. 354 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: And uh, and he'll get to read some parts uh 355 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: that will sound very familiar to him. Um. This is 356 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: my favorite email that that I think he already sent 357 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: to you because I loved it. Uh from Ryan Vance Jack, 358 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: don't tell me. You appeared on multiple news outlets regarding 359 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: your book, including Fox and Fringe, which which the President 360 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: watches and did not take the opportunity to talk about 361 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: the Big Bang in yong Yang Sat Prep has been 362 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: trying to spread the word for years now. Man, you 363 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: really blew a big opportunity. Love the show, looking forward 364 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: to reading your book. I was so tempted to just 365 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: like look into the camera when I was on Fox 366 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: and Friends and be like President of Trump, only you 367 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: can save us from the deep state. Nancy Pelosi hates 368 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: my book because it tells the truth, and anybody tweeted 369 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: about it. The question is, I know we were discussing 370 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: an off air like does he watch Fox and Friends 371 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: on weekends? Because don't know. We know he does on 372 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: the weekdays, but weekends are like golf time, Like that's 373 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: moral lago going golfing time. Who knows? Man, Yeah, I 374 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: don't know. It would be interesting to just know if 375 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: he want, if he woke up in the morning watching 376 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: you could be It's possible, It's possible it didn't happen. 377 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: I don't know. I got to say I should probably 378 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: like refine my message and make it more like you know, 379 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: sound bites for television. But like we talked about some 380 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: I got to talk about like getting smuggled into Syria 381 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: by the p k K and how they're like designated 382 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: a foreign terrorist organization by our government. And I got 383 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: to say stuff like that on Fox, which you don't 384 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: here on Yeah, like TV, you know, broadcast news too often. Yeah, 385 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: they're they're probably like, who the hell is what's this 386 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: dude talking about? Yeah, it's interesting, interesting man. All Right, Well, 387 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of press for Murphy's Law there, 388 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: so pick it up. I guess we're gonna get right 389 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: over to Thomas Pakora, who's back on for his second appearance. 390 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: So back on the podcast for a second appearance. CIA 391 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: officer Thomas Pakora, author of Guardian Life in the Crosshairs 392 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: of the CIA's War on Terror. It's out today as 393 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: we're recording on Postale Press. Uh. Thomas was last on 394 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: episode four ten with us discussing the early years of 395 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: Protective Operations. Cadre Uh, friend of Dale com Stock so 396 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: hooked us up and we're glad to have you back on. 397 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: This is a big deal because it was a few 398 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: months ago when we heard about the book, and we 399 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: figured we'd have you back on as the book got released, 400 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: And it's got so many interesting stories, and I think 401 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: people really responded to the first interview. Yeah, oh, thank 402 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: you for having me back. And I'm glad that people 403 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: like the interview. Yeah. Now that I have a copy 404 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: of the book in my hands, I've been flipping through 405 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: it and reading parts of it. And this is a 406 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: really unique book because we have a lot of memoirs 407 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: out there, and a lot of books written by former 408 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: CIA case officers. UM. Very few who worked on you know, 409 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: the paramilitary side at all, um, and certainly none from 410 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: the guys who worked UM protective details. Yeah, and there's 411 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: looking at the at the previous books that have been written. 412 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: I basically, in preparation for writing the book, I read 413 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: as many books written by agency personnel as I could 414 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: to get a feel for what they talked about and 415 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: what they're able to talk about. And this, my story, 416 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: is a lot different. It comes from a different point 417 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: of view because I was protecting those case officers as 418 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: they were the majority of people who actually wrote books. 419 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: I got the sense that you were, Um, I mean, 420 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. That you were able to 421 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 1: tell some of these stories as long as you were 422 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: kind of vague and non specific, like we were in 423 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: a North African country. One yes. Um, the publication, the 424 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: CIA Publication Review Board, UM kind of went through a 425 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: policy uh switch. And the reason why I can say 426 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: this is I spoke to Jose Rodriguez, who was the 427 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: head of the counter Terrorism Center. His book came out 428 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: just before I got my first manuscript into the publication 429 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: review board. The CIA is reviewing entity, and his not. 430 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: He was a very senior guy. His his process was 431 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: much different than mine. His was only a couple of 432 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: months long. Um. When I first submitted my book, my manuscript, 433 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: they sat on it for a year and then had 434 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: to kind of come back to him and say hello. 435 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: And then they sent me an email saying, well, this 436 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: is just just as overwhelming. Said okay, well let's start 437 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: with step one. And uh it was a struggle. It 438 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: was a struggle, uh uh to try to explain to them, 439 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: you know, here's here's all the different books that have 440 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: written similar things. Here's all the open source stuff. Here's 441 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: the stuff that is an open source you know directly 442 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: but indirectly is open source. So it was a struggle. 443 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: Don't you find it weird when when you have to 444 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: like correct them and be like, oh wait, you previously 445 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: declassified this, Like this isn't a secret anymore. Yeah, those 446 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: those are some tense moments because I'm I'm a bit 447 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: of a pack rat and I've had a lot of 448 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: time to work on this. I used to show up 449 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: in the meetings because you can't bring any electronic into 450 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: the meetings with them with uh, you know, a foot 451 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: to two ft of paper, uh, basically photocopied sections of 452 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: books where other agency uh entire agency officers had written about, 453 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: you know, these certain subjects in their books. And sometimes 454 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: I was able to win the day, and other times 455 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: I just get this look across the table like Okay, 456 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: you're not gonna be able to say that. So how 457 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: long did it take all together to get it through 458 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: the pr B? Three years? Wow? That's crazy. Yeah, it was. 459 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: It was a struggle, and there were times when I 460 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: was like, really, is this going to be worth it? 461 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: And you know, is it going to be I kept 462 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: thinking about the Hemingweight story of the old man in 463 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: the sea and where he catches this big fish and 464 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: by the time he gets the shorts of skeleton, and 465 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: I was thinking, you know, if that death level thousand redactions, um, 466 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: and there were just a boatload of redactions. But but 467 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: I worked really hard to try to get around that. 468 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to put black marks in the book 469 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: because that's just tough to read and it's it's no 470 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: fun for a reader to to to try to have 471 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: kind of guess what we're talking about now. So that's 472 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: why I ended up with undisclosed locations and things like that. 473 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: Now you can a lot of times you can figure 474 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: out what's going on, but well, for relso have to 475 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: protected protected sources and methods. And that was you know, 476 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: as a requirement as a security officer. Um. You know 477 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 1: that would be really uh uh hypocritical of me if 478 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: I didn't. Yeah, no, that's understandable. Uh for the people 479 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: who are not familiar or maybe haven't listened to the 480 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: last podcast we did. You want to tell us you 481 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,479 Speaker 1: know what's your book about? Um? My book is is 482 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: a historical memoir of my twenty four year career in security. 483 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: But I was not a traditional security officer. I branched 484 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: and mainly stayed into the protective side. I was heavily 485 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: involved in providing protection to agency personnel, facilities and information 486 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: in hostile areas, and I did in a variety of 487 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: ways and stories. The main story is about the this 488 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: protective unit called the Protected Protective Operations Cadre, which was 489 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: formed back in officially and that that entity remained UM clandestine, 490 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: out of the public eye up until an event in 491 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: UM in Pakistan and then later on with the Benghazi 492 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: right and UM. The other parts of the book are 493 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: my other roles doing protective work. When I was in 494 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: the counter terrorism I was protecting our case officers another 495 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 1: personnel by looking for and going after terrorists who are 496 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: targeting our people. Yeah, it's like I said, it's a 497 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: very unique view that I think you're the first person 498 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: to ever write a book like this, UM from the 499 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: standpoint of you know, running the protection detail for for 500 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: agency case officers. And the book really, as you said, 501 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: it's a historical memoir. It really takes you through the history, UM. 502 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: And I actually reading the beginning of the book, it 503 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: starts off with a pretty thorough account of the assassination 504 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: of Colonel Nick Roe. I mean, I don't think I've 505 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: ever seen it detailed, UM, quite so thoroughly before UM. 506 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: And that is you kind of point out really the 507 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: catalyst of how the park came about. Yes, that's that's 508 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: exactly what happened. Um, it was it was a watershed 509 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: moment for UM for us. We we we ended up 510 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: in a situation where we're like, wow, are our people 511 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: in an area you can't really operate. We need them 512 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: to operate, you know, in the traditional clandestine UM case 513 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: officer role collecting in intelligence. So they had to scramble 514 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: and UM, so we sent people out to the Philippines 515 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: and UM. You know, as a lot of a lot 516 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: of events occur, you're you're caught up in the middle 517 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: of it, and you and later on you get a 518 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: chance to look at and go, we can do this better. 519 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: So that's when they created this Protective Operations Cadre and 520 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: started a training program and and made this UM a 521 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: part of the security apparatus within the agency. And do 522 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how you came into 523 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: work for the agency. And it was really just responding 524 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: to a newspaper ad right, Yes, yes, as crazy as 525 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: that sounds, The Milwaukee Journal had an they had for 526 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: the CIA in there and I was coaching wrestling and 527 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: working at the J. C. Penny's Catalog warehouse, trying something 528 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: to do, and I applied and then um, they slatted 529 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: me into security, which is a good fit. And and 530 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: then things kind of picked up. And I was lucky 531 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: because of my personality, I'm more action oriented and UM, 532 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: I was struggling with the with the basics of the 533 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: security profession because back then it was mainly personnel security, 534 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: which is background investigations, clearance division clearance p sessing you 535 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: know for people's uh top secret and secret clearances and 536 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: a lot of that type of work. And I that 537 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: wasn't really what I was suited for. So UM, luckily 538 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: things really picked up. I was I came in at 539 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: the right time to get onto the first training class 540 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: for the for the Protective Operations Cadre and we called 541 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: the park and um and then things just picked up. 542 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: I mean my second job, I was at this in 543 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: the Security Duty Office, which is like security watch center 544 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: for all of our our agency for facilities in the 545 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: DC area. And that's when um uh mera mal Kanzi 546 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: Pakistani terrorist attacked the front gate and several of our 547 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: employees and so that I got right into the terrorism 548 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: aspect and that I got my uh my baptism and 549 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: fire there and then I, uh, then I deployed to 550 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: Somalia um as a Protective Operations Cadre member and from 551 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: that moment on, I was hooked. When you deployed to 552 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: Manga Dishue, I mean it was before Task Force Ranger 553 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: showed up, which was interesting. So you guys were kind 554 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: of out there. I don't want to stay out there flapping, 555 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: but before there was any real visible American presence. Yes, 556 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: so we were, we were out on the roads and 557 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: um and uh. In fact, when Task Sports Ranger came 558 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: in their first element, which is their administrative side, um uh, 559 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: they didn't have any logistical uh components, so we ended 560 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: up driving around Colonel H. McKnight, who was the head 561 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: of Task Force Ranger, and his his staff. We ended 562 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: up having to drive them back and forth between the airport, 563 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: through the dangerous parts of the city into into the 564 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: university compound. And uh our unit actually got a thank 565 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: you memo from him, which I thought was really impressive 566 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: considering that he uh, he ended up having his hands 567 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: full after we left, and he's still able to remember 568 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: to thank us and send us this um um the 569 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: certificate uh class act. What was it like operating a 570 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: mangad issue at that time? I mean you had to 571 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: presumably drive a case officer around him, meet with his assets. 572 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: And I mean I can just from the stories I've 573 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: heard about Manga Disue, I mean it must have been 574 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: a colorful experience. To say the least. It was surreal. 575 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: It was mad max and technical between between the Somali's 576 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: running around and all the U N troops. And and 577 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: let me give you a a flavor on the U N 578 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: troop thing. Um U N troops a lot of are 579 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: developing countries like we had well Pakistani's, we had Malaysians, 580 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: we even had some New Zealanders, not that they're developing, 581 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: but there's there was this widespread of different nationalities and 582 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: personalities and capabilities running around in this all in this area. 583 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: And those who are working for the u N, those 584 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: foreign troops, they get paid an extra amount of money. 585 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: So this is a this is a real money making venture. 586 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: Yet yeah, and um so they're in a whole different 587 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: mindset that our troops. U S troops don't get any 588 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: extra U N money. So, um so we've got all 589 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: these characters running around it with different capabilities and some 590 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: of them are out in the field, like the Italians 591 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: were out in different checkpoints. Checkpoint Checkpoint Pasta a very 592 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: famous one, and the Italians were involved in some really 593 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: nefarious stuff. They were they were they were kind of 594 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: colluding with the a Deed because it was an Italian 595 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: county previously and they wanted back in. And so we'd 596 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: be driving on these roads and we were relying on stealth. 597 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: We didn't have armor with a few exceptions, and so 598 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: we had to rely on speed, um and unpredictability and stealth. 599 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: So we'd be running around on these roads, dodging buses 600 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: filled to the brim with with some when we're talking 601 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: about no windows, and they're they're all over the top 602 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: of the bus also, and they're careening across the streets. 603 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: And then you have wildlife. I mean you have donkeys 604 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: and camels and sheep and chickens. You know, they're just 605 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: running around, So you're dodging animals at the same time. 606 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: And then uh, and then of course you've got technicals, 607 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: the warlord troops running around with with their trucks with 608 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: heavy machine guns on them. And then we're trying to 609 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: make it through checkpoints. So it was it was challenging 610 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: to say the least. No, never a dull moment. And 611 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: what was the story. I know you mentioned it in 612 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 1: the book a little bit that there is a source 613 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: who allegedly and it's mentioned in Black Hawk Down I 614 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: think also the source who allegedly killed himself playing Russian Roulette. 615 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: Yes he did. He um, it was one of our 616 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: main assets. He was. He was one of the warlords, 617 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of on the mine side, but he was a 618 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: main asset um and uh he was. He had he 619 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: had a wife who was a little suspect. And what 620 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: happened was we got word that he had shot himself 621 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: playing Russian Roulette with his cronies. When and what he 622 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: wasn't dead, and we got him into a hospital on 623 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: the un compound, and they didn't find what they normally 624 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: would find with a with a head, a close contact 625 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: head one powder burns. Powder burns. Now we found out 626 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: later when they did uh the autopsy, that that because 627 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: of the type of hair he had, it dissipated them 628 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: the powder burns, but we didn't know that at the time. 629 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: And his wife wasn't exactly the grieving type. She was 630 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: taking over all the money that he had collected from 631 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: the U S and other people, and so we ended 632 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 1: up having to go to his compound um and collect 633 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: some equipment. And that was a t scary moment because 634 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: we don't know whether somebody within his group killed him, 635 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: and we were, you know, we're inside the compound completely 636 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: at their mercy. So it was Parker factor completely And 637 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: there were also um a few there. There was another 638 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: vehicle with agency personnel that went over what it went 639 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: over a landline and it killed a few, killed one guy. Yeah, 640 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: that was that was during the first deployment of the 641 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: Park to Somalia. Um. There's an interesting story that goes 642 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: with that. These were para military guys um one of 643 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: one of which uh his name is Larry Friedman. He 644 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: was on that movement, and they were they were doing 645 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: road reconnaissance for the military. They were they were an 646 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: advanced element and they ran over a landmine and detonated 647 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: and killed him instantly pretty much, and then wounded another guy. 648 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,479 Speaker 1: The POC responded, provided security at the site and then 649 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: um uh uh a famous journalists showed up and there 650 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: was an altercation. Yes and she uh Christian, I'm poor 651 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: and she she basically ran off with the ambulance that 652 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: we're supposed to the converted um uh, the station wagon 653 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: was supposed to um Paul are wounded back to a hospital. 654 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: So so she actually tried to have a physical altercation 655 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: with these things. She she basically stole them. She she 656 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: wanted to follow the story, so she she accommandeered the 657 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: station wagon. YEA, yeah, Okay, then so that was that. Yeah, 658 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: that was That's a pretty pretty ugly moment. So we 659 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: we we were not really big big on the journalists 660 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: from from that bomb went on. And in terms of 661 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: Somalia coverage. The other the other guy who was hurt, 662 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: I believe he was an army dude. Actually, yeah, it was. 663 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: It was probably a combined unit. I know Larry was 664 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: was the main paramilitary officer and his it was only 665 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 1: later that he was acknowledged for that. Yeah, and Larry 666 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: was a plant owner of Delta Force. That should be mentioned. 667 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's a he's a living legend in 668 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yep. He was on Desert one. 669 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, and he was. He was definitely a character. 670 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: And you also write in the book, Um, I'm sorry 671 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: if I missed it, did you have your your case 672 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: officer get shot or was it one of the other 673 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: POC members that was actually the deput chief ship And yeah, 674 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: it was. This is one of the the dangers and 675 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: part of the book I wanted to focus on on 676 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: the difficulties are real life difficulties are running protection details 677 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: your clients, UM, in the private sectors clients and in 678 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: the government it's your bosses. UM. Sometimes they don't want 679 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: to listen to you. They have their own agenda, and 680 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: it gets to be a dangerous moment when when you 681 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: were telling them that this is really not a good 682 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: idea and they decided they're going to have to go. 683 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: You know, they're gonna They're gonna push through anyways, and 684 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: you're kind of stuck in a situation where you in 685 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,439 Speaker 1: some cases you can't say no. And in this case, 686 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: we tried desperately to talk him out of going on 687 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: that route because, Um, what happened was a deed was 688 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: targeting us very heavily. He was a former asset and 689 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: he knew our operations, He knew our our t tps 690 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: or tactics, techniques and procedures, and so he was hunting us. 691 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: He had guys looking out for us, and they uh 692 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: like he was looking to kill you, is what you're saying. 693 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. They Later on we found out they had 694 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: a a reward out for each of our heads. They 695 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: had physical descriptions three of our team. They had the 696 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: vehicles all picked out except for one of them, um 697 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: that we pulled in at the last minute. And uh 698 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: so he was tracking us and we were we were 699 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: changing routes and times um just for frantically to keep 700 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: out of his range, and it was working very well. 701 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: But then at one point we got where that that 702 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: they had mined one of our main routes up the 703 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: north Mue. So we were stuck with one route at 704 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 1: the time. And normally what happens is then we'll developed 705 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: new routes, but we didn't have time to do that, 706 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: and so we were stuck with one route. And we 707 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,439 Speaker 1: told the deputy that this is not a good idea 708 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: because if you go up and down up that route 709 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: to north mug and then back down the same way, 710 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: you're really putting yourself in danger. And he insisted. So 711 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: we ended up taking a route we had never taken before, 712 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: not at least for six months, and we ended up 713 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: doing a black Hawk overheight overflight of the route to 714 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: check it out. It was still really dicey because um uh, 715 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: if you get off that main road, it's a rabbit warrant. 716 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: There's there are no maps and this is something that 717 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: the Rangers and Delta Force found out in in the 718 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: Battle for Mogad issue it. Once you get off the 719 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: main pass, um there are no street signs and uh. 720 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: And at that time the GPS wasn't really a big thing, 721 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: So you're stuck and so um we ended up taking 722 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: that route. But what we ended up running into was 723 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: and the remnant of an attack that had happened earlier 724 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: in the morning on Nigerian outpost, and so we we 725 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: kind of walked drove right into the remnants of that. 726 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: And if we wouldn't have the driver in the car, 727 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: one of my commage Bill Stone, if he hadn't worked 728 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: at Uey and got us turned into other direction quick enough, 729 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: we would have Um I wouldn't be here to tell 730 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: you the story because we took quite a few rounds 731 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: and unfortunately the deputy was in the back, so he 732 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 1: hit um and nearly severed his subclauvial um rtery. It's 733 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: near his neck. We're able to get him back to 734 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: a hospital and they did emergency surgery and they saved 735 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: his life. And so it was a pretty pretty scary moment, 736 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: super sketchy. Yeah. Um. And then in the book you 737 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,959 Speaker 1: also talked about the point to Bosnia, and I wanted 738 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: to ask you a little bit about that because I 739 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,439 Speaker 1: don't think we got into that at all last time. Yeah, 740 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: the other part of the you know, the other part 741 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: of the book that you know why it's it's a 742 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: historical memoirs. Upon retrospect, I realized that my career kind 743 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: of um, well, it was on the same road that 744 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: the US was on in terms of so many different conflicts. 745 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: I was in pretty much every major conflict from ninety 746 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: three on until two thousand thirteen. I hit him all 747 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: all the ones at the military were in mean some 748 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: of them they weren't, but there were major events for 749 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: the for the U S and um Somalia is one example. 750 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: In in two areas one UH Somalia was the first 751 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: time we end up really in combat, you could say, 752 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: with some of Osama bin Laden's troops. But the other 753 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: side of that was which had an impact on Bosnia. 754 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: It was this was um, this was a real learning moment. 755 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: Somali was a real learning moment for the U. S. 756 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: Military when it came to humanitarian aid and the policing 757 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,280 Speaker 1: action and it what happened in black Hawk Down really 758 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: colored what we did in Bosnia changed the way we operated. 759 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: And General Nash, who was in charge of the troops, 760 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: um it was based out of Two Salem, UH, he 761 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: really wasn't going to take any other chances that he 762 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: saw we took in Somalia. They didn't want to repeat 763 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 1: that experience from the you know, the Battle of the 764 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: Black Sea. That's it. He basically said, if if two 765 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: is good, I'm sending ten and um I think my 766 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: personal opinion, having spent about fifty days in Twosla at 767 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: the beginning of this of this kind of conflict, UM, 768 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: I think he really forced the bad guys to take 769 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: a second look at whether they wanted to tangle with us. 770 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: The other part he was worried about was the terrorists, 771 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, the non the traditional noncombatant types. He was 772 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 1: really worried about the terrorists groups that were hiding among 773 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: the NGOs and non government organizations. So he he asked 774 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: for UM some help with the terrorists. Right party in 775 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: the UH. He was advised that there was a unit 776 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: in the CIA that specifically would go and look for 777 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 1: terrororst signature and provide um basically become a force protection 778 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: m in the military that term, but at the time 779 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: that wasn't really a term in the military, and we 780 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: were doing so. We were sending to basically look for 781 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: terrorist signature, terrorist threat, terror surveillance on his troops and 782 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: his base in too. Did you find anything, Oh yes, yes, 783 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,839 Speaker 1: we saw lots of very suspicious activity because the military 784 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,600 Speaker 1: had you know, they operated especially back then, you know, 785 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: we're uh, we were extremely well crypted military and we 786 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,760 Speaker 1: went in in force. But their their outlook was strictly 787 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: looking for um, traditional combatants, not non traditional. So when 788 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: they would go out on patrols, they weren't looking for 789 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,359 Speaker 1: the type of signature that we were looking for. Um, 790 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: they weren't looking for the passive surveillance. They weren't looking 791 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: at their routes from the point of view of how 792 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: can we said, you know, a bad guy set up 793 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: a car bomb, um like for I'll give you one example. 794 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: They had an end freeway into their base that and 795 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: they allowed locals to park, so it was like a 796 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: funnel and every time their troops would come driving or 797 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,839 Speaker 1: walking through that area, they were surrounded with cars that 798 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,720 Speaker 1: were not checked. So we we advised them that that 799 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: that that configuration was dangerous to their health, and they 800 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,839 Speaker 1: immediately made changes. And then some of their routes. They 801 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: were very doing some very predictable routes through the mountains 802 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: between Tusla Base and the city of Tuzla. So we 803 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: started to watch certain choke points and we started to 804 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: notice that there were unusual activities by certain entities that 805 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: that coincided with the movements of U S troops. Can 806 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: you say who some of the more non traditional threats 807 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: were that maybe the average Joe isn't aware of. I mean, 808 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: I think we're all aware there's conflicts with the Serbs, 809 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: Albanians and so forth. But you're saying there's more unconventional 810 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: or terrorist threats as well. Yes, among some of the 811 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: Angio em It's like Red Crescent Um. They had a 812 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: history of being infiltrated by Hezbollah and Hamas, So you 813 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: had these these elements running around under the cover of 814 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: of of aid workers. But yeah, they're collecting and um, 815 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,479 Speaker 1: they're providing logistical support to other elements that we're doing 816 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 1: nefarious things. So we would see these these kind of behaviors. 817 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: UH did at the time when I was there. We 818 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: never never actually picked up anybody. We were in a 819 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: very defensive mode. In other words, that we saw something, 820 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: we told them, we waved him off, and then they 821 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: would come in and harden that site. So we were 822 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 1: basically pushing them off the bullboard, making it very difficult 823 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: for them to operate. Interesting, Uh, and where is there 824 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: what else? Uh? What's going on in Bossing? I'm sorry, 825 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:56,839 Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to this part of the book. Well, 826 00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,760 Speaker 1: in boss we were we went in in in true 827 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,239 Speaker 1: color fashion. Were we were. The team was nicknamed the 828 00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,800 Speaker 1: the Ethnic Team. I was working with a Moldavian Russian 829 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,360 Speaker 1: and a check and baseboak cerble crow ad in Russian, 830 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: and I was the mute. I didn't speak any of 831 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: those languages. So I basically when we were out and about, 832 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: I didn't say anything, but we U. I had a 833 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 1: full beard and we Well before we went into uh Bosnia, 834 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,359 Speaker 1: we got breeched on the mission and it was like, oh, 835 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: we're this ari I equipment is not gonna work. Not 836 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: that we're gonna go run around as as locals or 837 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,399 Speaker 1: at least um people from the region. So we ended 838 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: up before we went in and split Croatia, and we 839 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,280 Speaker 1: went to a local used clothing market and we bought 840 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: all used clothing, which was a painful, um thing to 841 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: do because we went into a really harsh winter in Tusela, 842 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: and Tusla had been under siege for for two years. 843 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,840 Speaker 1: So the people and tools that did not have winter boots, 844 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,399 Speaker 1: they didn't have clubs, they didn't have hats. Um. So 845 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: there we were. I was running around and kind of 846 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 1: beat up old dress shoes were in the slush. It 847 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: was layered like a like a less commo and uh so, 848 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: and we ended up staying in some pretty rough locations. 849 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean no, I didn't get close washed for almost 850 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: almost two and a half weeks. I didn't get a 851 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: shower for about the same Um. Contrary to popularly, if 852 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:39,759 Speaker 1: you can smell yourself, it's not so. And uh you know, 853 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: we we basically operated like logos and it was interesting. 854 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: Was a very depressing place to be. Uh. The Twoslins 855 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 1: were really in rough psychological shape of people in the 856 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: hospitals were there for um uh stress related mental health 857 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: ca Asians. Wow, you never saw a smile, You never 858 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,720 Speaker 1: heard a laugh or if you did, it was a foreigner, 859 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,640 Speaker 1: it was it was a press or some other unit. 860 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,319 Speaker 1: Was never the locals because had just been traumatized by 861 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 1: the war. Yeah, and they fully believed that the war 862 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: was going to continue when it was just going to 863 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: get worse. Jeez. Uh. You also talked in the book 864 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,920 Speaker 1: about deploying to Khartoum and working with Cooper Black and 865 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: Billy wall a little bit. Yes. Yeah. The the unit 866 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,120 Speaker 1: that I that I was doing this um counter tourism 867 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:40,319 Speaker 1: activity that we called the connetarism unit. Um. It's it's 868 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,360 Speaker 1: never been mentioned in the press, with the exception of 869 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,840 Speaker 1: Billy Wah's book, which was not passed through the Complication 870 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: review board, called Hunting the jack and I arrived in 871 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: Khartoum after Billy had identified and photographed Um Carlos the 872 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 1: Jackal basically unen masked him. He had been living in 873 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,760 Speaker 1: and hanging out in in cartoon for for several years 874 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: and masquerading as a Greek merchant and with a bodyguard. 875 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: And um, so I got a chance to work with 876 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: the living legend Billy Billy Wants several occasions. Uh. Um. 877 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,399 Speaker 1: It was like you know Obi wan Kenobi the guy 878 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:32,760 Speaker 1: had been everywhere, done everything and fascinating environmental work. Uh 879 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: austere to say the least, UM full of all kinds 880 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: of bad things that could happen to you, both both 881 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: in terms of your health, UH, from disease and bad 882 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,480 Speaker 1: water to UM to every terrorist group you can imagine 883 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,080 Speaker 1: running around this was their terrorists are in our location, 884 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: and sometimes they got bored and decided that they would 885 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,280 Speaker 1: want to they want to play with the Americans. UM. 886 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: And the only thing that was keeping them really from 887 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 1: from full on on us was the was the threat 888 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 1: of the US government was UM putting UH to the 889 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,960 Speaker 1: Sudanese leadership basic saint, don't don't allow these guys to 890 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,919 Speaker 1: mess with our people. But there were there were quite 891 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,239 Speaker 1: a few occasions where they pushed the envelope we did. 892 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: We thought at one point that they were going full on. 893 00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:21,919 Speaker 1: They were targeting us. They were starting to do dry 894 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,640 Speaker 1: runs of attacks and we were not in a position 895 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,239 Speaker 1: there was no protection detail out there. We were running 896 00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: around without armor, were we had pistols. It was it 897 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,480 Speaker 1: was it was some praty, scary moments. Yeah, I imagine 898 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: UM and reading Billy's book to you get the impression 899 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:46,560 Speaker 1: that everyone knew something really bad was going to happen. Yeah, 900 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,439 Speaker 1: it was just a matter of time, and everybody was there. 901 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 1: Who amas Albuni dal Uh Osama bin Lan, But he 902 00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 1: wasn't a big player at the time. These other UH 903 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,360 Speaker 1: units were much bigger players. Budae was kind of fading 904 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: into the woodwork. But um, but we were definitely facing 905 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,799 Speaker 1: hostile environment and trying to track these guys and watch 906 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: the movings and see who they see and um, you know, 907 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: trying to determine, you know, what what they were going 908 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: to possibly do once they come off their vacation. So 909 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: it was fascinating work. And there's also a picture in 910 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,879 Speaker 1: the book that I was funny to see, Uh You're 911 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: in Zamblanca, which I was there what two years ago now, 912 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: and I got to meet with General Saban Uh and 913 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 1: some of the other guys who had worked with the agency. 914 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,200 Speaker 1: Is He told me pretty openly about, you know, sitting 915 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: in his kitchen planning, um, you know, rescue missions for 916 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,919 Speaker 1: the Burnham's the missionaries were captured and uh and also 917 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,479 Speaker 1: to assassin hate well maybe I shouldn't use that word, 918 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: but the sure kill um. What was the name of 919 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: the big terrorist at the time, he was the spokesperson 920 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:11,080 Speaker 1: for Yes Sabaya and they got him. We got him. Yeah, Yeah, 921 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: that was a fascinating time. After after I finished, um 922 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:20,440 Speaker 1: my senior uh the senior team that the park up 923 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: until two thousand and one, when I changed, I found 924 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,320 Speaker 1: this position out in Asia as a as the security 925 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,520 Speaker 1: officer basically the security chief of that region, and so 926 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,880 Speaker 1: I went out to Asian. I came in just in 927 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: time to to work extensively on the Burnham kidnapping kids. 928 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,200 Speaker 1: But this is a case of of a bunch of 929 00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:47,959 Speaker 1: Americans that at a dive resort in Palawan, Philippines, and 930 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:53,760 Speaker 1: these terrorists a boot uh a Botsabaya and his group, 931 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,759 Speaker 1: the boot uh a f G, a s G. Pardon 932 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,840 Speaker 1: me uh. They they came out of the Southern area, 933 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: took their boats up, kidnapped these people, and took them 934 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: down into their jungle layer. And it was this was 935 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,440 Speaker 1: a major big deal for the US to try to 936 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,080 Speaker 1: get these guys back and to to go after the 937 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:20,640 Speaker 1: s G. And so I was down and exambling a 938 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,759 Speaker 1: lot help build the base that we had down there, 939 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,800 Speaker 1: supporting all the military elements to be Special Forces seals, 940 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,319 Speaker 1: you name it. Okay, can I just interject that this 941 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,239 Speaker 1: picture in particular really caught my eye because I have 942 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,840 Speaker 1: been too many Campgrounds of America. When I was on 943 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,680 Speaker 1: this team tour back in the day, we went to 944 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,240 Speaker 1: You meet so many characters there. And I never knew 945 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,960 Speaker 1: that there were Campgrounds of America in the southern philip 946 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: because obviously there that was a joke. We had that 947 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,960 Speaker 1: sign made up because we had a large um a 948 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: number of trailers for our air element and our and 949 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,400 Speaker 1: so somebody said, boy, it is just like camp Grounds 950 00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,600 Speaker 1: of America. So we had the sign made up. You met, like, 951 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've had the same experience, because 952 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: like I was on this team tour, like I was 953 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,920 Speaker 1: probably I don't know, like seventeen or something, and you know, 954 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,840 Speaker 1: so we went to camp Grounds of America all throughout 955 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,839 Speaker 1: the US, because we basically were on a bus from 956 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: like New York all the way to Florida. One year 957 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,160 Speaker 1: in New York all the way to California. So we 958 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: were at camp Grounds of America in like South Dakota, 959 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,200 Speaker 1: in Utah, and you meet some weird characters because like 960 00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,640 Speaker 1: they're just like, you know, there were great people there, 961 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:33,839 Speaker 1: and then there are people in trailer parks who kind 962 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,120 Speaker 1: of fit that stereotype, and you met some really odd 963 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,680 Speaker 1: characters just from what I remember my experience. Well, we 964 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,160 Speaker 1: had the same odd characters in our yeah ground to 965 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,319 Speaker 1: you name it. We had a we had a lot 966 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 1: of different types. I will always remember this one. I 967 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 1: know I'm going way off topic, but just the camp 968 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 1: grounds of America mind, I will always remember this weird 969 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,719 Speaker 1: story of us trying to make small talk with this 970 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,120 Speaker 1: guy in Utah and um, we were like, oh, were 971 00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,480 Speaker 1: you a fan of the Utah Jazz and the and 972 00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,359 Speaker 1: there is a guy we literally just met, and like, 973 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm not going to repeat it, but the guy was 974 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: literally like I'm not I'm not interested in watching a 975 00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,520 Speaker 1: bunch of N words like throw around a ball. And 976 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: we were like wow, Like it was just the most 977 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 1: blatant racism I ever saw in my life. And then 978 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: I remember hearing I've told people this story, and I 979 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 1: remember hearing just recently about these players in the Utah 980 00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,960 Speaker 1: Jazz being harassed by fans in the stands of them 981 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 1: like channing N word and all this stuff. And a 982 00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: friend of mine was like, I'm sure you're not surprised 983 00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,480 Speaker 1: by the story and like the owner came out it 984 00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: was like, we're not a racist organization, and I suck. 985 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: Former players on ESPN be like yeah when we played 986 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,520 Speaker 1: certain states, like that was just the norm, Like you 987 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,440 Speaker 1: heard this type of stuff and it was. To be honest, 988 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: just as someone who grew up in New York, it 989 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,520 Speaker 1: was really eye opening to me because it's like racism 990 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,040 Speaker 1: exists everywhere, but it's never that blat It's never like 991 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: in the context of hey, how are you doing and 992 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,000 Speaker 1: someone throws out you like a racial slur ian You're right, 993 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: that's pretty off topic. Yeah, extremely off topic. But camp 994 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: Grounds of America it was I don't know, it's like 995 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: a landmark of of how many years ago in my 996 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,760 Speaker 1: life probably a good uh, you know, twenty years, fifteen years. 997 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: At this point, I did not realize that you were 998 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,720 Speaker 1: involved in the in the Burnham incident, and I was wondering, 999 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,600 Speaker 1: if you can talk to us, if you can talk 1000 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,360 Speaker 1: to us about that, because having talked to General Saban 1001 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,680 Speaker 1: and talking to some of the the l r R 1002 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,720 Speaker 1: had just been stood up at the time by the 1003 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,840 Speaker 1: Special but US Special Forces had helped with that. Um, 1004 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,280 Speaker 1: that's a very very interesting time and this is just 1005 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,640 Speaker 1: as the global war on terror is starting to kick 1006 00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: in the high gear. Absolutely, um, what that's it. The 1007 00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: other part of this book talks kind of gives a 1008 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,400 Speaker 1: view that most Americans and other people even from Europe 1009 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:55,760 Speaker 1: don't understand that how how much terrorism affected the Asia 1010 00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:02,280 Speaker 1: and its implications across the globe. So the Abusabaya group 1011 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,280 Speaker 1: with the s G that they kidnapped the Burnhams, we're 1012 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:12,600 Speaker 1: also in UM contact with Osama bin Laden's group, and 1013 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:18,480 Speaker 1: they were also working with UM elements from a major 1014 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,880 Speaker 1: terrorist group from Indonesia called Jimminia and Slamia j I 1015 00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 1: j I And like for example, a little background. UH 1016 00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand, I was coming back from a dive 1017 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,520 Speaker 1: trip in the southern in the Philippines and we had 1018 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,400 Speaker 1: to UM divert around Manila because five bombs went off 1019 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,560 Speaker 1: in the city in one day, and UH they called 1020 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,880 Speaker 1: the resolved bombings. It was on the thirty December two 1021 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,280 Speaker 1: thou and there was a j I operative who did 1022 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,600 Speaker 1: those bombings. He was the guy and later on he 1023 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:57,480 Speaker 1: resurfaces in the in a plot to go after the 1024 00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:02,480 Speaker 1: US embassy in Singapore, and the backup plan was to 1025 01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,680 Speaker 1: bomb the U s Embassy in Manila, and all this 1026 01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:07,400 Speaker 1: stuff is swirling and then of course not I love 1027 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,840 Speaker 1: it happens when I'm there. So it's we are so 1028 01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:17,000 Speaker 1: deep into the terrorists. UM, I mean historical bowels. Because 1029 01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:23,160 Speaker 1: the guy who developed the plan to use aircraft, UM 1030 01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:29,000 Speaker 1: Ramsey Yusef was was working and hiding out in the Philippines. 1031 01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,240 Speaker 1: And what happened was he lit his own apartment on 1032 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,000 Speaker 1: fire and he had the fleet, and and then when 1033 01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,360 Speaker 1: they did the investigation, he found his fingerprint and they 1034 01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,720 Speaker 1: found out, you know, what he's working on. So there 1035 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,600 Speaker 1: are a lot of terrorists nexus stuff that happens, and 1036 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,720 Speaker 1: it happened in the Philippines that were um one of 1037 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,160 Speaker 1: the most dangerous guys outside of the Middle East, for 1038 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:56,200 Speaker 1: um the Osama bin Linge group, you know, was a 1039 01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,920 Speaker 1: guy named Humbali and he was the architect behind the 1040 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,920 Speaker 1: Singapore plot. He was gonna he actually surveiled the US 1041 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: embassy in Manila. Um, he was involved in all kinds 1042 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:12,360 Speaker 1: of stuff and he was a major player, uh in 1043 01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,320 Speaker 1: the terrorist infrastructure. So a lot of things happened in 1044 01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 1: the Philippines. But during the Burnham things, UM, these guys 1045 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,800 Speaker 1: were We're getting a lot of pressed. They had these 1046 01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:27,080 Speaker 1: hostages they were they were holding them for ransom, and 1047 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:31,120 Speaker 1: the US got involved, but the Philippine leadership did not 1048 01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,880 Speaker 1: want us to have an active role. We had to 1049 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,320 Speaker 1: do support training, some guidance, but there were limits to 1050 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,360 Speaker 1: what we could do, and including intelligence because if we 1051 01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,120 Speaker 1: provided certain types of intelligence and people were killed at 1052 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:53,880 Speaker 1: that requires what we call lethal finding. And um quite frankly, uh, 1053 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,320 Speaker 1: if we were allowed to throw off the the leash, 1054 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:03,440 Speaker 1: we would have ended that kind much quicker. I talked 1055 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:07,200 Speaker 1: to well. General Saban told me that the case officers, 1056 01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,960 Speaker 1: the first plan they came up with for Sabaya was 1057 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: to deliver have delivered to him, uh, a satellite phone. 1058 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: And he said they came to him and it was 1059 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,960 Speaker 1: like one of these big satellite like trifold, you know, 1060 01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,440 Speaker 1: radar dish things and and he was like he's like, man, 1061 01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:24,840 Speaker 1: if I if we give this to him, he's going 1062 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 1: to know exactly where it came from. Like to them, 1063 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,480 Speaker 1: a satellite phone as a thoria. So they did the 1064 01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,640 Speaker 1: thoria but that didn't work. And uh, it was interesting. 1065 01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:34,600 Speaker 1: I got to talk to some of the napsack guys, 1066 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,720 Speaker 1: the Philippine seals, and like two years ago. Yeah. Yeah, 1067 01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,000 Speaker 1: when I was over there, good friends with with the 1068 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,960 Speaker 1: commander of all Naval Special Warfare for for the Philippines 1069 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,680 Speaker 1: was down there during that event. I've known him ever since. 1070 01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:52,760 Speaker 1: You're talking about Ben no val Oh No, I don't 1071 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:58,440 Speaker 1: know him there. He's the he's the commander of the 1072 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,640 Speaker 1: able Special Warfare for the Filipinos. One of the former 1073 01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,280 Speaker 1: bull Frogs is Uh. He's here in the city in 1074 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,440 Speaker 1: New York. He works for the u n right now. Um. 1075 01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,960 Speaker 1: Really good guy he was. He was the bull Frog 1076 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,720 Speaker 1: when Zamblanca happened, the Zamblanca siege. Yeah, bow was a 1077 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,360 Speaker 1: was a young young tadpole at that time. Okay, okay, 1078 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,240 Speaker 1: And do you know who's down there with him? And 1079 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:25,680 Speaker 1: I've got a picture of that. Yeah, I'm gonna call 1080 01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,920 Speaker 1: BS on that one. If if Chris Kyle, if or 1081 01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,040 Speaker 1: somebody's claiming that Chris Kyle was there. This is the 1082 01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: first I'm ever hearing about this. Oh, the Seals. I'll 1083 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:39,400 Speaker 1: send you a picture, Okay, okay, you'll see that. He'll 1084 01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:44,120 Speaker 1: steal this his profile and uh, the Seals were very 1085 01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:51,200 Speaker 1: active down in Zambulanga training the Philippines. Seals during the 1086 01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,560 Speaker 1: Zamblanca siege, not the zamble on the siege during during 1087 01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:58,040 Speaker 1: the Burnhams Oh during the okay, okay, I got you. 1088 01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:03,720 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so two thousand one, yes, that period. Yeah, 1089 01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,800 Speaker 1: I know this. The American Seals are still down there. 1090 01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 1: I ran into them on the on the Navsog compound 1091 01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,080 Speaker 1: and that they do really good work. I mean all 1092 01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:12,760 Speaker 1: of them do, the Marsak guys, the Green Berets down there, 1093 01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,120 Speaker 1: they all do really good liaison work, um and training 1094 01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,080 Speaker 1: and everything else. But anyway, back to the Burnham's. Uh. 1095 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,800 Speaker 1: I got to talk to one of the um Navsog 1096 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,880 Speaker 1: seals Philippine Seals and uh, and between him and Saban, 1097 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:29,560 Speaker 1: I was able to kind of piece together the whole 1098 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,840 Speaker 1: the whole story. It is very interesting. There's some things 1099 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,240 Speaker 1: they'll tell you on the record and something's off the record, 1100 01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,960 Speaker 1: but a very interesting story about how they you know, 1101 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,280 Speaker 1: how they bugged the boat and they ended up deciding 1102 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,160 Speaker 1: to interdict him at sea because they're like, well, he'll 1103 01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:53,640 Speaker 1: finally have nowhere to run to. No comments. Yes, I 1104 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,280 Speaker 1: spent a little time on down there in the ocean 1105 01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,280 Speaker 1: on a boat in the middle of the night. Oh 1106 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:02,720 Speaker 1: you too, Because there were two American I was too 1107 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,080 Speaker 1: told to deav group seals on one of the boats 1108 01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:06,960 Speaker 1: when they interdicted him, and they were both kind of 1109 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:11,920 Speaker 1: like taken aback by some of that went down. Uh, 1110 01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,000 Speaker 1: there was an interesting moment. Yeah, I mean he was 1111 01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,680 Speaker 1: cut in half, boots, was cut in half with a 1112 01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:21,560 Speaker 1: fifth with a fifty and he just sunk, which we 1113 01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,600 Speaker 1: didn't get the body. And then for a while the 1114 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,040 Speaker 1: boost tried to push it like like he's still alive, 1115 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:31,360 Speaker 1: but we had we had his signature, sunglasses and his phone, 1116 01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,360 Speaker 1: and so it's like no, yeah, I know. It was 1117 01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,760 Speaker 1: all very like it went down by the numbers in 1118 01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,000 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. But then they also told me like, 1119 01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,760 Speaker 1: oh yeah, he was treading water shooting his A K 1120 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,040 Speaker 1: forty seven at us in the middle of the ocean 1121 01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,800 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. And I'm like, uh yeah, 1122 01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:53,320 Speaker 1: maybe okay, man, okay, all right. And then and then 1123 01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,280 Speaker 1: one of them, allegedly one of the Philippine officers, has 1124 01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:01,680 Speaker 1: Sabaya's nineteen eleven as a trophy. I'm like, huh, so 1125 01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,520 Speaker 1: you're saying he sunk to the bottom of the ocean, right, yeah, 1126 01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:11,120 Speaker 1: but you have his pistol. Yeah, there's there's a the 1127 01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:15,120 Speaker 1: stories abound us as things kind of you know, because 1128 01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,480 Speaker 1: everybody want to be involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I 1129 01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,080 Speaker 1: hear you. I mean everybody, let me tell you, even 1130 01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,600 Speaker 1: the US, everybody wanted to be involved in that case, 1131 01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,440 Speaker 1: including the FBI. Yeah. Well, can you tell us about 1132 01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,640 Speaker 1: how how things went down to the Burnhams though, And 1133 01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:31,120 Speaker 1: and I don't know how deeply you can get into it, 1134 01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,160 Speaker 1: but I can say this, and I am I have 1135 01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:36,680 Speaker 1: a lot of friends in the in the Philippine military. 1136 01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,400 Speaker 1: I have a lot of Filipino friends. I spent a 1137 01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,560 Speaker 1: lot of time in the Slippines um even now. And 1138 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,720 Speaker 1: but um, the truth is that they stumbled on the 1139 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:54,960 Speaker 1: Burnham's there. They just uh the unit that that actually 1140 01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,840 Speaker 1: got into a battle with the the A s G 1141 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,160 Speaker 1: element that had the kind of just stumbled across and 1142 01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:09,320 Speaker 1: then they went it went into three fire mode. And um, 1143 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: Gracian made it. She got shot, but her husband died 1144 01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:18,880 Speaker 1: and that was just a matter of bad luck. Um, 1145 01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,520 Speaker 1: it really wasn't like a rescue operation. It was just 1146 01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:26,240 Speaker 1: they stumbled on him. There was one and I believe 1147 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,400 Speaker 1: it was one of the l r RS, the Light 1148 01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:31,800 Speaker 1: Reaction Regiment. I believe it was one of their first 1149 01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:36,080 Speaker 1: ever operations live operations, was an attempted rescue mission. Um. 1150 01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,400 Speaker 1: And I think they missed them entirely, that they had 1151 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,920 Speaker 1: been moved. Yeah, yeah, there was there was a there 1152 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:43,480 Speaker 1: was a lot of big push to try to get 1153 01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:49,320 Speaker 1: the Filipinos the top grade night vision, but that that's 1154 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:57,760 Speaker 1: not allowed, um export issue. Yes. Yeah, and so they 1155 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:04,479 Speaker 1: Philips weren't really keen on rinning at night understandably. Yeah. Yeah, 1156 01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,600 Speaker 1: where our units were very happy to work at night. 1157 01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,200 Speaker 1: So we missed some opportunities there, but that's you know, 1158 01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,600 Speaker 1: that was a political thing with the President of the 1159 01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,559 Speaker 1: Philippines at the time. Later on she changed your tune 1160 01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:21,240 Speaker 1: and we really took the A s G down a 1161 01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:28,400 Speaker 1: few notches, just just above obliterated. Now the current president 1162 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,439 Speaker 1: there is quite a character. I love talking to our 1163 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,160 Speaker 1: web guy and Philippines about the Tara te Oh. Yes 1164 01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:42,200 Speaker 1: he is. He's unbelievable. Yes, every few months he makes 1165 01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:46,120 Speaker 1: a statement that it's just like I love just seeing 1166 01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:50,639 Speaker 1: the things that come out of that guys Canada, It's 1167 01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,519 Speaker 1: it's what I found interesting over there. Um. So this 1168 01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:56,200 Speaker 1: is a couple of years back, and I think things 1169 01:08:56,240 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 1: were a little bit even more intense than now between 1170 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:04,200 Speaker 1: Dirt and Trump. Um, like two fairly bombastic characters. Um. 1171 01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:06,839 Speaker 1: But what I found was interesting is that the military 1172 01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:09,639 Speaker 1: to military relationship between US and the Philippines was still 1173 01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,640 Speaker 1: very strong. Uh. And when you start looking at it, 1174 01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:15,559 Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, this relationship goes back like a hundred years. 1175 01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, I didn't even I didn't even know this 1176 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,639 Speaker 1: when I got there. I'm sure you saw it, uh, Tom. 1177 01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:26,000 Speaker 1: The American cemetery in Manila gorgeous. It's beautiful. It really is. 1178 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,160 Speaker 1: All the American g I s who were killed in 1179 01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:31,240 Speaker 1: the Philippines and the Filipinos and the Filipino forces. Yes, 1180 01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:34,559 Speaker 1: I mean you you were. That's that's our real bond 1181 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:39,519 Speaker 1: right there, that we fought and died together. And that 1182 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,200 Speaker 1: that a cemetery is Um. There's only one that comes 1183 01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:48,320 Speaker 1: close to that, and that would be UM Normandy. That's it. 1184 01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:53,559 Speaker 1: Those are the two most beautiful UM veteran cemeteries uh 1185 01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:57,720 Speaker 1: in the world. And the U S still m maintains that. Yeah. 1186 01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,759 Speaker 1: By the way, the things you're saying about the tertay 1187 01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:02,439 Speaker 1: the interestinct thing is from the discussions I've had with 1188 01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:04,840 Speaker 1: Chris and you know who we know in the Philippines, 1189 01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:08,960 Speaker 1: the art is almost looked at rightfully or wrongfully by 1190 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,120 Speaker 1: the people of the Philippines the way we look at 1191 01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,519 Speaker 1: Trump and as he's an outsider, he's gonna get things done. 1192 01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,760 Speaker 1: He's not political royalty, and and that's kind of why 1193 01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:22,320 Speaker 1: he's It's well, it's a it's a class issue also 1194 01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,360 Speaker 1: that the you have an elite in the Philippines, much 1195 01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,760 Speaker 1: like our our media elite. They don't like Trump very much, 1196 01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,840 Speaker 1: but in the Philippines is kind of the same, and 1197 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,400 Speaker 1: that you have an elite and they live in they 1198 01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,400 Speaker 1: literally live inside walt compounds and they do not like 1199 01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:38,000 Speaker 1: to turth Day. But you have another class of people, 1200 01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,240 Speaker 1: are working class of people. The woman who has to 1201 01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:42,519 Speaker 1: worry about being raped every time she walks from the 1202 01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:44,679 Speaker 1: bus stop to home on the way home from work, 1203 01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,679 Speaker 1: and she is much more liable to support through Dirthday 1204 01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,799 Speaker 1: because he talks about, you know, killing criminals and stuff 1205 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 1: like that. So it resonates with with a lower class 1206 01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,160 Speaker 1: of people. And I don't mean that they're lower people, 1207 01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,799 Speaker 1: but that they have to live states. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 1208 01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:05,280 Speaker 1: they're they're struggling with with with a severe poverty and 1209 01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:07,880 Speaker 1: drugs and by the way, not only does he talk 1210 01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:11,599 Speaker 1: about killing drug lords, but he's he's talked about killing 1211 01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,639 Speaker 1: drug addicts and is and that that kind of talk 1212 01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:20,840 Speaker 1: impacts our relationship because Rubio and a Democratic congresswoman also 1213 01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,559 Speaker 1: maybe it was Feinstein, I can't remember, but they blocked 1214 01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,200 Speaker 1: armshipments to the Philippines, to the special operations and it's 1215 01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:30,800 Speaker 1: and it's not them, it's it's an actual U S 1216 01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,160 Speaker 1: policy And this was This had an effect when I 1217 01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:38,200 Speaker 1: was in the Philippines. UM, because basically extra judicial killing, 1218 01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,080 Speaker 1: that's what the technical term for for that kind of 1219 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:45,880 Speaker 1: stuff is frowned upon. I'm using that term loosely, um 1220 01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,200 Speaker 1: by the US government and any elements of a foreign 1221 01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:53,240 Speaker 1: government that we are leads on with if they're found 1222 01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,960 Speaker 1: to have been involved in extra judicial killings. There's a 1223 01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:00,600 Speaker 1: there's kind of a whole process on all funding and 1224 01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:04,280 Speaker 1: what happened with the Philippine police. UM. I was there 1225 01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:10,280 Speaker 1: for uh President Bush's visit to the Philippines. And I'm 1226 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,640 Speaker 1: sorry because I know how your career spent. So is 1227 01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:17,240 Speaker 1: that President Bush senior or junior? And this is um 1228 01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,640 Speaker 1: I think it was a two thousand three Uh. This 1229 01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,200 Speaker 1: this guy that I told you about this j I bomber. 1230 01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:29,880 Speaker 1: He got loose, We captured him, he got loose from 1231 01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,519 Speaker 1: the Philippinos and he was running around and this was 1232 01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,639 Speaker 1: a major concern to us because we got a president 1233 01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,160 Speaker 1: coming in. And then just before the president arrives, the 1234 01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,360 Speaker 1: police chief tells the ambassador that, yeah, you don't have 1235 01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:44,680 Speaker 1: to worry about that guy anymore. And just like out 1236 01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:47,800 Speaker 1: of a scene like Cassy Blanca, he says, what we're 1237 01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,840 Speaker 1: doing the paperwork now we don't know whether he uh 1238 01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:57,240 Speaker 1: committed suicide or died while trying to escape he mysteriously 1239 01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:00,679 Speaker 1: sunk beneath the waves. Oh this was so bad because 1240 01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,519 Speaker 1: at the time, you know, we can't. It went all 1241 01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,640 Speaker 1: the way back to the d C where they had 1242 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,160 Speaker 1: to look at this and go, can we really hold 1243 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:13,560 Speaker 1: back from our support to the Philiping National Police And 1244 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,960 Speaker 1: they realized they couldn't, but they that was a serious 1245 01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,760 Speaker 1: concern because that was an extra judicial killing. What I 1246 01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,439 Speaker 1: find disconcerting, and I mean I believe that, you know, 1247 01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,479 Speaker 1: we we should are some of our foreign support should 1248 01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:28,599 Speaker 1: be contingent on human rights. Of course, we don't want 1249 01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:32,599 Speaker 1: to arm bad guys. Um. That's why the Lady Amendment exists. 1250 01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:34,840 Speaker 1: But at the same time, what happens is you have 1251 01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:37,760 Speaker 1: police units committing these e j k s, but the 1252 01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,720 Speaker 1: special operations guys that we work with, l r R 1253 01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:46,000 Speaker 1: navsag um Uh Scout Rangers, they're doing the they're doing 1254 01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:49,560 Speaker 1: the right thing. And unfortunately the stuff that some of 1255 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:52,080 Speaker 1: the police do and some of the bombastic statements that 1256 01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,439 Speaker 1: do dirt Day makes it ends up impacting these special 1257 01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:58,080 Speaker 1: operations units that are doing the right thing, and we 1258 01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:00,080 Speaker 1: can't get them the weapons and the night vision and 1259 01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,080 Speaker 1: they need because because of this kind of stuff. And 1260 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:08,840 Speaker 1: you're correct, absolutely right, and that's unfortunate, yes, because they 1261 01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:11,919 Speaker 1: need to help. And UM one of the big concerns 1262 01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:14,240 Speaker 1: I just wrote an article or in the process of 1263 01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:19,000 Speaker 1: writing article for a news agency about the terrorist threat 1264 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:22,040 Speaker 1: in um down in the minute now because there's a 1265 01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:27,240 Speaker 1: there's a very large population of Americans in the Philippines 1266 01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:29,160 Speaker 1: and quite a few of them are down in Mint 1267 01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:32,519 Speaker 1: and now in the southern part and the scary part 1268 01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:36,200 Speaker 1: is is Isle. And if just like the j I 1269 01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:39,479 Speaker 1: was a major threat coming out of Indonesia, the the 1270 01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:45,080 Speaker 1: ISO elements coming up through Indonesia wanting to establish a 1271 01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:49,640 Speaker 1: caliphate down there. UM, it has implications, serious implications for 1272 01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:53,280 Speaker 1: a lot of American lives. So this is being monitored 1273 01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:58,960 Speaker 1: very closely. And I worked, UM. A parallel of this 1274 01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:04,240 Speaker 1: is I worked doing training protection details all over the world, 1275 01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:06,760 Speaker 1: especially in South America, and I trained a lot of 1276 01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,240 Speaker 1: the Colombian Presidential Detail. And at one point during the 1277 01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:13,800 Speaker 1: nineties UM the FARC had taken over more than half 1278 01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:18,120 Speaker 1: of Columbia and at that point the U. S Government 1279 01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:20,600 Speaker 1: decided that this was too dangerous too that you know, 1280 01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,200 Speaker 1: the chances of them taking over more of the country 1281 01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:27,799 Speaker 1: and possibly taking it over completely was an untenable situation, 1282 01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,160 Speaker 1: and so they brought in a lot more special forces 1283 01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:36,160 Speaker 1: support and we were able to really squish the FARC. 1284 01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:40,280 Speaker 1: So you may see something like that happen in the 1285 01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,040 Speaker 1: future and other locations, because we can't allow that that 1286 01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:47,479 Speaker 1: type of loss of a country to to a terrorist 1287 01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:51,120 Speaker 1: element or a narco terrorist element. Yeah. I mean when 1288 01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:55,120 Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar brought down that jetline or it was like okay, 1289 01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,920 Speaker 1: enough is enough, like enough screwing around down their pal 1290 01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,960 Speaker 1: Oh he was. I worked with so many people, they 1291 01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:06,000 Speaker 1: all knew people who were killed by Pablo Escobar. One 1292 01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:08,120 Speaker 1: of the one of the protection detail guys. We were 1293 01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,360 Speaker 1: at a at a picnic kind of thing at the 1294 01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:13,439 Speaker 1: end of the course, and he brought his son over 1295 01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:16,559 Speaker 1: and sent it a nice nasty scar across his face 1296 01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:22,120 Speaker 1: from where Pablo tried to roll a bomb filled bus 1297 01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:27,200 Speaker 1: into the dots, which is, um, that's their FBI. But 1298 01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:29,960 Speaker 1: the bad part is attached to the FBI building was 1299 01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:34,519 Speaker 1: a daycare center in Oklahoma City. Yeah, so it was 1300 01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:37,120 Speaker 1: a horrific situation and there were a lot of people 1301 01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:41,439 Speaker 1: who wanted that guy taken off the planet. Yeah, he 1302 01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:46,559 Speaker 1: he went, he went around the bend, so unreal. Well, 1303 01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,840 Speaker 1: as you say, Tom, I mean your book, because your 1304 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:54,480 Speaker 1: career kind of follows along, you know, all these contemporary conflicts, 1305 01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, since the end of the Cold War, America's 1306 01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:00,400 Speaker 1: adventures around the world, and then the of a war 1307 01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:03,240 Speaker 1: on Terror kicking off. And uh, I could sit here 1308 01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:05,320 Speaker 1: and talk to you about like the Philippines and Colombian 1309 01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:09,040 Speaker 1: stuff all day and just like ask you probing questions, 1310 01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:13,160 Speaker 1: you know, half of which you probably can't answer. But 1311 01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:17,800 Speaker 1: I think this stuff is fascinating. I'm hoping that the 1312 01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:20,960 Speaker 1: readers will will find that, you know, it's they get 1313 01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:23,040 Speaker 1: they get a little bit more of the background on 1314 01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:28,800 Speaker 1: why these things are are important, you know, and how 1315 01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,479 Speaker 1: this has impacted our our policies and our our behavior, 1316 01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:35,639 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the our U S Military, 1317 01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:38,880 Speaker 1: in our in our policies, and we haven't really gotten 1318 01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:40,280 Speaker 1: into it. I mean, I guess people just have to 1319 01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,439 Speaker 1: go and read the book. But of course you spent 1320 01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:45,960 Speaker 1: a lot of time in Pakistan and Iraq as well. 1321 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:51,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, uh, Pakistan was a trip that was we 1322 01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:55,320 Speaker 1: we pretty much knew Bin Laden was running around there somewhere. 1323 01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:59,280 Speaker 1: Pakistani's have not been an ally to us in a 1324 01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:03,479 Speaker 1: long long time time. And anybody says different as doesn't 1325 01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:07,639 Speaker 1: understand the real the reality of the world. Yeah. Well, 1326 01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,800 Speaker 1: the book once again is out now. It's Guardian Life 1327 01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:14,000 Speaker 1: in the crosshairs of the CIA's War on Terror out 1328 01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:17,120 Speaker 1: on Post Hill Press. And as you heard, a lot 1329 01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:20,519 Speaker 1: of great stories in this book, especially as we discussed 1330 01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:23,839 Speaker 1: in the last episode, the early years of Protective Operations Cadre, 1331 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:27,120 Speaker 1: which a lot of people mistakenly think is something that 1332 01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:29,559 Speaker 1: came about closer to you know, the War on Terror, 1333 01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:31,560 Speaker 1: and this goes more into the origins of that and 1334 01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:33,720 Speaker 1: you being there in the early years. And it's a 1335 01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,559 Speaker 1: book that people really have to pick up if they 1336 01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,080 Speaker 1: want to know their their history and what really has 1337 01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:42,840 Speaker 1: gone down in the CIA and intelligence in general. And 1338 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,920 Speaker 1: just another segue into that for people who, as Tom 1339 01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,560 Speaker 1: brought up, the the GRS program had a lot of 1340 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:51,360 Speaker 1: light put on it because of Benghazi and people started 1341 01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,760 Speaker 1: asking who are these guys? Are these former seals that 1342 01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:56,560 Speaker 1: are working protective details? And I think Tom's book is 1343 01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:01,880 Speaker 1: going to answer those questions for you. Absolutely, absolutely, Thanks 1344 01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:03,800 Speaker 1: again for coming on. Anything else you want to get 1345 01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,719 Speaker 1: out there besides of course the book obviously. Well, I'm 1346 01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:11,040 Speaker 1: doing my first book signing next week at this uh 1347 01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:14,800 Speaker 1: the safe House, which is a spy restaurant chain that's 1348 01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:18,280 Speaker 1: based in Milwaukee but has a sister one in Chicago. 1349 01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,720 Speaker 1: So that'll be fun and I'll be putting out I 1350 01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:25,120 Speaker 1: just put out a video on YouTube. It's a it's 1351 01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,680 Speaker 1: a video slide show of photos from the book and 1352 01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:30,960 Speaker 1: color and um so if people are interested in and 1353 01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:33,280 Speaker 1: take a look at that, they get a good idea 1354 01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:36,680 Speaker 1: what's in the books. Awesome. Yeah, thanks so much for 1355 01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,360 Speaker 1: doing this again. I appreciate it you guys having me 1356 01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:41,960 Speaker 1: on your show. Yeah, we'll have to do it again sometime, Tom, 1357 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:44,080 Speaker 1: because I know we're just kind of like scratching the surface. 1358 01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:47,800 Speaker 1: I'd like to do that. I'd be great. Absolutely, good 1359 01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,080 Speaker 1: luck with the book, and um, you know, feel free 1360 01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:55,679 Speaker 1: to reach out to us anytime. Thanks, I'll do that, yeah, absolutely, okay, 1361 01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:02,439 Speaker 1: take care great having Thomas back on. Be sure to 1362 01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:04,920 Speaker 1: check out Create Club. It's a club four men buy 1363 01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:08,720 Speaker 1: men of gear handpicked by Special Operations veterans. We have 1364 01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,200 Speaker 1: the Dash one, Create, the Pro Create, and for those 1365 01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:14,559 Speaker 1: looking for the Holy Grail of gear subscriptions, our premium Create. 1366 01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:18,120 Speaker 1: These are all available at Create club dot us and 1367 01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:21,040 Speaker 1: right now we are running an extremely limited promotion of 1368 01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,759 Speaker 1: off for all software radio listeners. This is the biggest 1369 01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,439 Speaker 1: discount we've ever made available and we don't know how 1370 01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:30,000 Speaker 1: long we can keep this promotion live, so get on 1371 01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,280 Speaker 1: it right now. That's Create Club dot us coupon code 1372 01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:38,720 Speaker 1: softwarep off any gearbox sign up today. Also, as a 1373 01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,400 Speaker 1: reminder for those listening, now is the time to sign 1374 01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:44,240 Speaker 1: up for the spec Ops Channel, our channel that offers 1375 01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:48,519 Speaker 1: the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most 1376 01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:52,880 Speaker 1: exciting military content today. The spec Ops channel premier show 1377 01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:57,560 Speaker 1: Training Self follows former Special Operations Forces as they participate 1378 01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,680 Speaker 1: in the most advanced training in the country, everything from 1379 01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:05,320 Speaker 1: shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, climbing, and 1380 01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:08,720 Speaker 1: much more. Again, you can watch this content by subscribing 1381 01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,080 Speaker 1: to the spec Ops channel at spec ops channel dot 1382 01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:14,960 Speaker 1: com and take advantage of a membership for only four 1383 01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:19,880 Speaker 1: a month. That's spec ops channel dot com. Sign up today. Last, 1384 01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:21,920 Speaker 1: if you're not already signed up at the News Rep 1385 01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,719 Speaker 1: dot com, you've got to get on board expert reporting 1386 01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:28,040 Speaker 1: and actionable intelligence from your favorite writers you've heard on here, 1387 01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:30,760 Speaker 1: like Jack Murphy of course, who's right next to me, 1388 01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:33,200 Speaker 1: and the many guest writers who pop in as well. 1389 01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:37,200 Speaker 1: Unlimited access to News Rep on any device, Unlimited access 1390 01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:40,120 Speaker 1: to the app, join the war room community, you'll get 1391 01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,160 Speaker 1: invitations to our exclusive events, and it's all add free 1392 01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:45,720 Speaker 1: from members. We have a trial offer up right now 1393 01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:48,599 Speaker 1: where you can get four weeks for only one nine. 1394 01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,200 Speaker 1: Sign up now at the news rep dot com. That's 1395 01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,360 Speaker 1: the news rep dot com. By the way, for those 1396 01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:56,360 Speaker 1: not in the know, we have our own software Radio 1397 01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:59,879 Speaker 1: app that you can download for free on iPhone or Android, 1398 01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:03,360 Speaker 1: and our homepage is of course software radio dot com, 1399 01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,080 Speaker 1: where you can see that full archive of shows. Um, 1400 01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,439 Speaker 1: you know, shows like the last Thomas Pokora, those are 1401 01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:12,680 Speaker 1: up everywhere, but like back way Back episode eighty eight 1402 01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,320 Speaker 1: with Michael Behannah, that is only available on our archives. 1403 01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:18,400 Speaker 1: So that's Software radio dot com and you can see 1404 01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:21,120 Speaker 1: all that. Um as always keep up with us at 1405 01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:25,600 Speaker 1: Software Radio as well on everything on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, 1406 01:22:25,840 --> 01:22:28,160 Speaker 1: anything else. Man, No, that's it. I mean that was 1407 01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:31,920 Speaker 1: a super wide ranging interview because Tom was in the 1408 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,280 Speaker 1: agency for so long and he got deployed all the 1409 01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:38,000 Speaker 1: hot zones, so we got the covered. I mean, that's 1410 01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:41,760 Speaker 1: some really interesting stuff. Got it all all? I'd say, Uh, 1411 01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:46,479 Speaker 1: you know, I have my own book out too. I know, 1412 01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:51,000 Speaker 1: I keep plugging. Please it's a great book. It's okay, 1413 01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:54,519 Speaker 1: I'm enjoying it. Um, so go check it out. You know, 1414 01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,240 Speaker 1: the audio book is out, the e book, I narrate 1415 01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:00,479 Speaker 1: the audio book if you're interested in that. UM hardcover 1416 01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:04,200 Speaker 1: is out, so whichever format you want, it's there. We're 1417 01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:09,560 Speaker 1: not going to cover the met Gala what happened? No, 1418 01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:11,920 Speaker 1: it's just that's that's what's been all over Twitter all 1419 01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,360 Speaker 1: day and all night. It's just what everybody's wearing. You 1420 01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,440 Speaker 1: haven't seen all this, Katy Perry wearing a fucking chandelier 1421 01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:21,000 Speaker 1: and you know, Kim Kardashian and uh no, I don't 1422 01:23:21,040 --> 01:23:22,840 Speaker 1: know about this stuff, and I'm a better man for 1423 01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,000 Speaker 1: not knowing. You know, you're on Twitter. I mean, it's 1424 01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:30,000 Speaker 1: it's not it was. It's been non stop. Uh you 1425 01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:31,920 Speaker 1: know what's been going on there, and it's just who 1426 01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:35,600 Speaker 1: could wear the most outrageous thing? And basically, you know, 1427 01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:39,760 Speaker 1: these people who need more attention than than anyone in 1428 01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:41,519 Speaker 1: the world. I don't know why we give it to them. 1429 01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:45,000 Speaker 1: Well I'm giving to them right now. No, but I 1430 01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:46,880 Speaker 1: feel like that's the only thing being covered. So I'm 1431 01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:51,080 Speaker 1: actually glad we're not doing a show on that. Um yeah, 1432 01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,679 Speaker 1: I'll plug myself. Follow me on Twitter at Ian Scotto, 1433 01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:57,040 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, Slushi and scott a Radio. A lot 1434 01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:01,800 Speaker 1: of people are asking what I'm up to after I end, 1435 01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, my run with the shows at the end 1436 01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:05,880 Speaker 1: of this month and move on other things. I don't 1437 01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:07,800 Speaker 1: know exactly. I mean, I I still do a lot 1438 01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,080 Speaker 1: of freelance voiceover, and I've been doing a lot of 1439 01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:11,920 Speaker 1: that stuff. So I mean, if you own a company 1440 01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,920 Speaker 1: and you want me to do voice over, I'm always 1441 01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,200 Speaker 1: open to that. You can always contact me. UM. I 1442 01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,360 Speaker 1: may do work with Jack in the future. We don't 1443 01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:22,479 Speaker 1: really know. But right now I'm doing that UM and 1444 01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,120 Speaker 1: just some other things, so you know, if there's anything 1445 01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:26,560 Speaker 1: in the rise, and I'll be sure to let you 1446 01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:28,920 Speaker 1: guys know. I know you're gonna turn around and write 1447 01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:32,200 Speaker 1: like a tell all book, like Jack Murphy, the real story. 1448 01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:34,280 Speaker 1: I have to write about everybody. I have to write 1449 01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:37,040 Speaker 1: about you guys, about like working with David Webb, working 1450 01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,960 Speaker 1: with Senator Bill Radley. Here's what Jack wrote in his book. 1451 01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,640 Speaker 1: Here's what you don't know, working with Dee Snyder. There 1452 01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:45,920 Speaker 1: re a lot of interesting stories, but I wouldn't do 1453 01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:47,519 Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's people who have and then 1454 01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:49,880 Speaker 1: they never work in the radio industry again. They right, 1455 01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:51,840 Speaker 1: like a self published tell all book that you know 1456 01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:55,320 Speaker 1: their family reads. And then because I've seen it happen, 1457 01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:57,320 Speaker 1: and then people are like, fuck you man, you wrote 1458 01:24:57,320 --> 01:24:59,560 Speaker 1: ship in there that you know we were that it 1459 01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:02,400 Speaker 1: was per personal, Like I know a guy who worked 1460 01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:05,360 Speaker 1: on I want to say the name of the radio personality, 1461 01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:07,960 Speaker 1: but like he was going through a crazy divorce at 1462 01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:09,800 Speaker 1: the time. His kids are running around the studio and 1463 01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:11,519 Speaker 1: he wrote that and He's like a little tell all 1464 01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,040 Speaker 1: book that didn't go anywhere, and the guys like, dude, 1465 01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:15,559 Speaker 1: I don't need the public to know is like going 1466 01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:18,719 Speaker 1: through divorce. My kids are running around that. Yeah, because 1467 01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:21,920 Speaker 1: plus why what what's juicy about that anyway? Because it's 1468 01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:25,360 Speaker 1: it's it's personal not professional. Yeah, you know, it's like 1469 01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:28,080 Speaker 1: one thing to criticize a person on a professional level, 1470 01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:30,840 Speaker 1: you know, and another thing to like, you know, take 1471 01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,519 Speaker 1: a cheap shot at somebody because they're going through a divorce. Yeah, 1472 01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:36,360 Speaker 1: it's sucking stupid man um. So yeah, I mean the 1473 01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:39,559 Speaker 1: main thing I'm gonna be doing, uh, after my running 1474 01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:41,639 Speaker 1: the shows, like immediately after, I'm gonna be going hard 1475 01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:43,600 Speaker 1: at work with voiceover. So like I said, if you 1476 01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:46,920 Speaker 1: own any type of company and you're doing radio, EDGs, 1477 01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:49,120 Speaker 1: TV ads, you want me to voice them. Very reasonable 1478 01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:53,240 Speaker 1: with that. So yeah at Ian Scotto and uh, I'll 1479 01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:55,000 Speaker 1: keep you up to date with if I'm up to 1480 01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:58,120 Speaker 1: anything after this. But Jack is still here. I know 1481 01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:02,240 Speaker 1: a job for you, let me know after I get stopped. 1482 01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,040 Speaker 1: But they I went to school with a guy. He 1483 01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:07,720 Speaker 1: had a job working as like a personal trainer and 1484 01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:09,720 Speaker 1: a gym, which I would like to do as well. 1485 01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:12,960 Speaker 1: One of the guys on one of his clients was 1486 01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,760 Speaker 1: a male Jiggolow. So this is what you're giving to me. 1487 01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:17,760 Speaker 1: This is what I'm giving. This is what I'm giving you. 1488 01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:21,120 Speaker 1: This is what I think. So this dude serviced Upper 1489 01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:24,200 Speaker 1: East Sidewives. That was his whole job here in Manhattan, 1490 01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:28,439 Speaker 1: Upper East Sidewives. And the deal was to Viagraa's four 1491 01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:31,760 Speaker 1: clients a night. Serious, So this is what I should 1492 01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:33,680 Speaker 1: move on. This is what you should do. Bro. It's 1493 01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:36,639 Speaker 1: funny that you mentioned personal trainer though, because male gigolo 1494 01:26:37,160 --> 01:26:40,720 Speaker 1: something I I told you um Ian Scotto, male prostitute. 1495 01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:42,880 Speaker 1: Even though it would probably be like a side thing, 1496 01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:44,920 Speaker 1: I do have a love for fitness, as you can 1497 01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:48,839 Speaker 1: listen back to the episode East Sidewives episode in Viagra 1498 01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:51,680 Speaker 1: with c J Woodrooff and just a little Blue Pill. 1499 01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:55,479 Speaker 1: Let me finish this fucking story. C J. Woodruff and 1500 01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:59,439 Speaker 1: Doug cachi Jian, who do you know? Have you listened 1501 01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:01,360 Speaker 1: back to that episode? We talked a lot of fitness, 1502 01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:06,599 Speaker 1: but I early eighteen, I wanted to um get nass 1503 01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:09,439 Speaker 1: m um certified as a trainer, and I realized its 1504 01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:12,320 Speaker 1: a lot more work than I realized. I just used 1505 01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:14,600 Speaker 1: the word realized like twice the sentence. But it's a 1506 01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:18,439 Speaker 1: lot more work than I realized. And I actually would 1507 01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:20,439 Speaker 1: like to do that on the side. And I just 1508 01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:23,400 Speaker 1: I love to like have new knowledge of things, so 1509 01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:25,599 Speaker 1: I would love to kind of do that as well. 1510 01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:28,800 Speaker 1: But I mean, my main thing has been voiceover for 1511 01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:31,400 Speaker 1: a while outside of this, and probably will be voiceover. 1512 01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:33,840 Speaker 1: That's what I like doing. I like producing spots for people. 1513 01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:36,960 Speaker 1: Isn't that what your buddy who's the NYPD cop we 1514 01:27:37,080 --> 01:27:40,880 Speaker 1: had on Oh Ricky He's yeah, he's a trainer and 1515 01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:44,400 Speaker 1: NYPD and they're saying voiceover because if you're gonna say 1516 01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:47,800 Speaker 1: voiceover people. I know Adam Hamley, I know who worked 1517 01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:49,800 Speaker 1: at Serious Sex m was the voice of Wendy's for 1518 01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:52,519 Speaker 1: a year and that was a huge pay day. He 1519 01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:55,160 Speaker 1: bought his house off that monch. Yeah, so like any 1520 01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:57,040 Speaker 1: ad for a year that you heard of him talk of, 1521 01:27:57,200 --> 01:27:59,400 Speaker 1: like talking about Wendy's promotions, that was his voice. Man. 1522 01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,559 Speaker 1: To me, it's just I love doing it. I love 1523 01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,920 Speaker 1: producing spots for different clients. So um, that's what I'm 1524 01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:07,800 Speaker 1: up to right now for any of you, any of 1525 01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,000 Speaker 1: those wondering, I'm just stepping up my game in that aspect. 1526 01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:13,559 Speaker 1: So I want to do the voiceover for like those 1527 01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:17,680 Speaker 1: home alarm commercials on television, like by this alarm or 1528 01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,360 Speaker 1: this scary guy in black masks will break in and 1529 01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,840 Speaker 1: kill your pets. All Right, I could sell it. I 1530 01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:26,599 Speaker 1: could sell it at Software Radio. We'll be back next 1531 01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:30,639 Speaker 1: episode with Fred Galvin and possibly Michael Behanna maybe, which 1532 01:28:30,680 --> 01:28:33,880 Speaker 1: would be great. Um, But congrats to Michael Behenna because 1533 01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,439 Speaker 1: that that was the case I've followed for so long, 1534 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:39,240 Speaker 1: and I think I said this on the podcast with him, 1535 01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:44,120 Speaker 1: but I remember I regularly wore the free first Michael 1536 01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:46,679 Speaker 1: Behanna wristband because it was kind of just a reminder 1537 01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:49,200 Speaker 1: to me that like, don't bitch about stuff you're going through. 1538 01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:51,680 Speaker 1: This guy's in Fort Leavenworth for you know what he 1539 01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:54,320 Speaker 1: thinks was doing the right thing. And so I wore 1540 01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:59,719 Speaker 1: that every day. And we had um Colonel Lieutenant Colonel 1541 01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:03,240 Speaker 1: Allen West on well Cow and I was wearing that 1542 01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,559 Speaker 1: wristband and Alan west was like, hey, nice wristband, man, 1543 01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:07,720 Speaker 1: and he pulled up his sleeve and he did the 1544 01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:09,880 Speaker 1: same thing on and I thought that was really cool. 1545 01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,800 Speaker 1: They were just like other people keeping this guy's um. 1546 01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:15,760 Speaker 1: You know, keeping him in their thoughts and it was 1547 01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:19,760 Speaker 1: a real Uh it was just really refreshing when he 1548 01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:23,040 Speaker 1: was freed, and then really an honor to have him on. 1549 01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:27,880 Speaker 1: And now it ultimately has some great closure hearing that 1550 01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:31,760 Speaker 1: he's been fully pardoned by by President Trump. Yeah, I mean, 1551 01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:34,920 Speaker 1: one way or the other, he served his debt to society. 1552 01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:38,639 Speaker 1: He was sentenced, and he has maintained his innocence throughout. 1553 01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:42,800 Speaker 1: Um got paroled out, served his served his his debt 1554 01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:46,160 Speaker 1: to society. Uh. And now he's been pardoned by the president, 1555 01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:50,360 Speaker 1: so his his criminal record is expunged. And I hope that, Yeah, 1556 01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:52,680 Speaker 1: that gives him some closure. And now he needs to 1557 01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:54,840 Speaker 1: move on and live his life, you know, and I 1558 01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:56,800 Speaker 1: hope he's able to do that, you know for sure, 1559 01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:00,599 Speaker 1: much like Fred Galvin, who were having on next episode, 1560 01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:02,519 Speaker 1: and we're going to have that in depth, in depth 1561 01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:05,640 Speaker 1: trying it about. Yeah, yeah, we'n. I'm gonna prep some 1562 01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:07,519 Speaker 1: notes for that bad boy because its like that's a 1563 01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:10,880 Speaker 1: complicated subject. How you are complicated subject? All right, So 1564 01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:13,680 Speaker 1: stay subscribed and you'll get that as soon as it 1565 01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:22,160 Speaker 1: goes up. You've been listening to Self rep Radio. New 1566 01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:26,160 Speaker 1: episodes up every Wednesday, and Friday. Follow the show on 1567 01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:29,200 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at self rep Radio