1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Brussels is actually quite polluted for like maybe two or 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: three weeks a year. It tends to be really hard 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: to breeze and you can feel there's a lot of 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: fine particles in the air. And generally people think that 5 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: it's only the cards, but actually, almost by accident, I 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: started being aware of the coal industry and the coal plants. 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 2: A few months ago, Jeannie Lemersqier, a French artist living 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 2: in Brussels, reached out to me on Twitter. He had 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: been documenting a coal mine near him, the Humbuck Mine, 10 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: the largest open pet coal mine in Europe. It's actually 11 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 2: located in Germany, about a two hour drive from where 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: Johnnie lives in Brussels. Anyway, he was surprised to find 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: that he had something in common with this mine. They 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: both relied on software from a California based company that 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: has made sustainability a big part of its brand, Autodesk. 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: If you work in architecture or engineering or product design, 17 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 2: you probably know that name. They make a variety of 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: computer aided drafting or CAD software packages. Joni uses it 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: in his artwork too, to plan projections onto buildings. Outside 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: of these realms, Autodesk is relatively unknown, but its software 21 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: is critical to the design of many of the world's buildings. 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: It's also used to design extractive equipment and pipelines for 23 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: quite a few companies in the fossil fuel industry. I'm 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: Immy Westervelt and this is DRILLED. When I first started 25 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: doing environmental reporting in the late nineties and early two thousands, 26 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: there was a lot of interest in green business and sustainability. 27 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: The idea of a quote triple bottom line that you 28 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: had to balance social and environmental impact with profits that 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: dominated the conversation, and I have to admit it took 30 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: me several years to realize that while it might encourage 31 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: some companies to think about their social and environmental impact 32 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: and not just their profits, it was mostly being used 33 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: to avoid taking steps that might be good for the 34 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: environment or for people, but were bad for profits. This year, 35 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: on Earth Day, we're putting out a story on DRILLED 36 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: News that takes aim at that idea and grapples with 37 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: what sort of role companies that want to be green 38 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: really need to be taking to accomplish that goal. Reporter 39 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: Maddie Stone, who started the website Earther and now freelances 40 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: for various sites, most recently, the Atlantic Advice joins us 41 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: to talk about her piece of it, and we'll hear 42 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: more from Joni. Two. Back with that in a minute 43 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: after this quick word from today's sponsor. 44 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: So basically, the largest source of CO two emission and 45 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: pollution in Europe is right here. 46 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: That's Johnny again talking us through his first trips out 47 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: to the humback mine in Germany. 48 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: The scale is just enormous and it's really hard to 49 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: believe what's going on and to understand. This is the 50 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: famous Badger, the excavator that is designed with Autodesk Inventor, 51 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: and I think there are about twenty of those machines 52 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: operating twenty four to seven all year long with no stop. 53 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: And this particular machine, I think it's an amazing piece 54 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: of engineering. It's two hundred meters long. It's really quite 55 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: remarkable in terms of conception. The only problem is that 56 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: it's polluting so much, and it's threatening our mankind. I 57 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: think pollution first and then CO two, but I think 58 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: the whole planet is is it danger because of this 59 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: very machine? And I was really really surprised actually when 60 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: I went there, when I started my research, when I 61 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: started talking to people, I didn't have a clue about 62 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: the coal industry being still an expansion. And also I 63 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: didn't realize that that Autodesk was had this pdf telling 64 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: about the success story of how much coal you can 65 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 1: dig in a day, and this single machine is actually 66 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: can actually at food capacity, it can generate half a 67 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: million ton of CO two in a single day. 68 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: The mine also happens to be surrounded by an old 69 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: growth forest that's been largely cut down to accommodate its expansion. 70 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: In recent years, it's been the site of multiple protests. 71 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: Gretathunberg even joined the protest there last year. Villages have 72 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: met similar fates raised to make room for more mining. 73 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: Those giant machines Joni mentioned are maintained using Autodesk software. 74 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: They're fairly old, so if you need a replacement part, 75 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: you gotta make one with Autodesk, at least at this 76 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: particular mind. Joni found a case study on Autodesk's website 77 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: about the mine. That's how he connected the two in 78 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: the first place, and when he brought that to Autodesk's attention, 79 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 2: the case study was removed from their site. He of course, 80 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: had already downloaded it and has now put it up 81 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: all over the Internet, including on a new website he 82 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: made and launched today to highlight Autodesk's role in climate change, 83 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: just in time for Earth Day. It's a long way 84 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: from the sort of messaging the company puts out about 85 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: itself and its environmental impact. Here's Maddie Stone, who picked 86 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: up where Joni left off and reported this story out. 87 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 3: For us at Autodesk, sustainability really is more of a 88 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: marketing tool than a set of core and GO principles. 89 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 3: It's a way of shaping projects, shaping initiatives that the 90 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: company already wants to engage with into something that looks 91 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 3: a little bit greener around the edges. So, you know, 92 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 3: can we build this data center with more renewable power? 93 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: Can we tweak this software to encourage our clients to 94 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: build a building in a slightly greener way? And thinking 95 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 3: about who our clients are and should we be working 96 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: with this particular industry is so far outside the realm 97 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: of how Autodesk and really tech companies at large think 98 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 3: about corporate social responsibility. You know, not to say that 99 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 3: it wouldn't be the right choice, it wouldn't be the 100 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: one of the most impactful things they could do. Would 101 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 3: be to take a hard chance and say we're not 102 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 3: going to work with Europe's largest polluters anymore. But they're 103 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: sustain ability teams just aren't even trained to think in 104 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 3: that way. And so when Joni raised this, you know 105 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 3: issue and pointed out that you working with Europe's largest 106 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 3: coal mine is directly antithetical to everything you say in 107 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: your sustainability marketing. It undermines all of this other work 108 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 3: that you're doing. I mean, that is true, but it 109 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: would have been such a drastic thing for the company 110 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 3: to acknowledge that and you know, take the necessary steps 111 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: to to remediate that. My sense is they just, you know, 112 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 3: didn't have a response. It was it was so outside 113 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: the realm of what the company was willing to engage 114 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: with how it had conceptualized sustainability over the last ten years, 115 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 3: that you know, they just weren't going to engage. They 116 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: didn't have response. So they responded and perhaps the worst 117 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: way possible, which was just not to respond at all. 118 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: They actually did respond a bit at first. Autodesk CEO 119 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: Andrew Annignost engaged with Joni on Twitter and he was 120 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: able to arrange a call with the company's VP of 121 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: sustainability linell Cameron. She's also the CEO of the Autodesk Foundation, 122 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: the company's charitable giving arm. She thanked Joni for bringing 123 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: the Coleman case study to her attention and for raising 124 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: the idea that the company could be doing more to 125 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: track the impact of its products. It's possible she was 126 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: expecting Jonie to be happy with a hey, thanks, we'll 127 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: look into it kind of response. But here's what Jonie said. 128 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: It will sound like corporate bullsheets if you keep anything 129 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: so much co two. 130 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: It probably won't surprise you to learn that Jonie's follow 131 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: up call with Linnell Cameron was canceled. Joni has been 132 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: asking Autodesk to add the carbon majors to its denial list. 133 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 2: This is a list of keeps of companies and industries 134 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: that it won't license its software too, including terrorist organizations 135 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: and manufacturers of weapons of mass destruction, which Maddie points 136 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: out is a legitimately big ask. 137 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: I should also say, you know, regarding the fact that 138 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: companies do have these downstream impacts on climate change through 139 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 3: their clients, through the fact that they license software out 140 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: to a coal company or an oil company. That is true. 141 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 3: It is also very hard to determine the carbon impact 142 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 3: of your products, the downstream impact. So what Linnell said 143 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 3: to Joni about you know, we don't try to determine 144 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: the carbon impact of our products when it's out there 145 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 3: in the world. That is true for most tech companies. 146 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 3: So this gets a little technical and boring, but basically 147 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: the way that tech companies report carbon emissions, there are 148 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: kind of these three scopes of emissions that they consider 149 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 3: and try to reduce if they have a plan to 150 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 3: reduce their climate impact. And so those are emissions associated 151 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: you know, directly with their you know, their stores, their employees, 152 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: going on flights, going to conferences. And then there's upstream 153 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 3: and downstream emissions through the manufacturing and the use of 154 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: their products, and those downstream emissions and in carbon reporting, 155 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 3: these are technically called scope three emission can include that's 156 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: where the company might try to consider the impact that 157 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: a software product has when it gets in the hands 158 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 3: of a client and that client turns around and excavates 159 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: a giant hole in the earth and starts pulling out 160 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 3: forty million tons of coal year. So that is where 161 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: a company like Autodesk might try to consider that downstream impact. 162 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 3: But within the framework that these companies have for how 163 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 3: kind of accounting for their carbon footprint and reporting it. 164 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: They're not actually required to consider those downstream impacts. 165 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: So that is. 166 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: Considered to leave this technical explanation here, that is considered 167 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 3: an optional add on to the scope three emissions, not 168 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: something that a company that is reporting that scope three 169 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: downstream would have to include. And so because it is 170 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 3: difficult and because it would in all likelihood greatly inflate 171 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 3: their climate impact, most companies simply choose not to consider that, 172 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 3: and that seems to be the case at Autodesk. So yeah, 173 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 3: it's this tricky thing where companies like Autodesk could have 174 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 3: such a more profound impact on where we're headed in 175 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: terms of climate change if they were to sort of 176 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 3: do the work of considering who their customer base is, 177 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 3: considering is it right for us to be work working 178 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: with this group or that group. But instead they're drawing 179 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: this kind of circle around themselves and saying we're going 180 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: to do everything to you know, green up our own operation, 181 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 3: and we're just not going to engage with what happens, 182 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: you know, beyond the walls of Autodesk. 183 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: It's the same sort of approach much bigger tech companies 184 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: like Amazon, Microsoft, and Google have taken and increasingly been 185 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: criticized for employees and customers have been pushing the tech 186 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: industry to think through its role in climate change more. 187 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: And it's an interesting question because where do you draw 188 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: the line. Should Microsoft also not sell Excel to fossil 189 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: fueld companies. Maybe it's a conversation worth having. At a minimum, 190 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: asking tech companies to report on their real impact on 191 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: climate change seems valid. Here's Maddie again. 192 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: So if they're working with companies that have aggressive climate 193 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: goal that are doing kind of sustainability work, my sense 194 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: through autodesks reporting is that they want to try to 195 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: quantify the positive environmental impact that they're having through working 196 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: with those companies, which of course gives you an extremely 197 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: lopsided picture if they're not considering the companies that are 198 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: accelerating the climate problem at the same time, which it 199 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: seems like they're not doing at all. 200 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: From my understanding, the Environmental Policy page is just a 201 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: small screen, just a masquerade. When they say that they 202 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: measure the environmental impact of their operations, technically that's a 203 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: lie because their operations in Germany they don't measure it. 204 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: They just don't. They don't. They're not even trying or starting. 205 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: What I suggested to Linnell in July last year was 206 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: to take the hundred most companies in the world. That 207 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: would be a handcore Exxon other w is part of it, 208 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: is part of it is part of that list. And 209 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: they actually have a tool to to to exclude clients. 210 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: It's called the denial list. They use it for customers 211 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: that are non ethical, that might be that might be 212 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: a terrorist, that might be lid to terrorist groups or stuff. 213 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: So they have a denial list which is a great 214 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: tool to exclude clients. And my suggestion was to just 215 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: add the one hundred most policing companies to that list 216 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: because instantly that would be part of that would be 217 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: a way to apply their environmental policy, and that would 218 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: be just to start. You know, it wouldn't fix everything, 219 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: but that would be a signal of hope that they 220 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: won't work with exon Aramco and maybe that would have 221 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: a significant impact over the years and even symbolically, that 222 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: would be a great signal of hope. And that's when 223 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: she consoled the follow up code because I believe the 224 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: amount of profits they make from those clients the Autodesk 225 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: employees told me that it was very likely that that 226 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: that those one hundred most politing companies were also the 227 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: most the one hundred most profitable clients of Autodesk. I 228 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: still believe that the employees are not aware of this, 229 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: the clients and the investors either, but the executives well are. 230 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: I've emailed all of them a year ago, and yet 231 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: they failed to uh to take any action. 232 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 4: Did you get a sense, Maddie would like in any 233 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 4: of your reporting of weather or how hard it would 234 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 4: be for some of the fossil fuel companies, for example, 235 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 4: to you know, just use a different software, because that 236 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 4: seems to be kind of the response. 237 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: And I you hear that from like other tech companies too, right, 238 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: It's like, well, it's not us, then someone else will do. 239 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: It, so right, Yeah. I don't think we can definitively 240 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 3: say if Autodesks chose to cut off Xyz, it would 241 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 3: entirely hamper their ability to do what they're doing. I 242 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 3: think what we can say is that making such a 243 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: choice would be a very profound statement for Autodesk, and 244 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: one that would really kind of position it as a 245 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: leader out in front of all these other companies that 246 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 3: are grappling with the same issue of holy shit, we've 247 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 3: been working with the fossil fuel industry and we're part 248 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: of the problem, but our leadership doesn't want to do 249 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: anything about it. And it would be a profound statement 250 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 3: for a company like Autodesk to say we're not going 251 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: to work with even the top twenty carbon emitters anymore, 252 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 3: and that I think could have a ripple effect and 253 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: help kind of mobilize and energize perhaps some of the 254 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 3: other companies that have these lucrative relationships with the oil 255 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 3: and gas industry. You know, we've seen over the last 256 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 3: couple of years as companies kind of step up in 257 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 3: terms of their climate commitments. We're sort of seeing this 258 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 3: competition within Silicon Valley to make the biggest or the 259 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: boldest climate commitments. You know, we had Google and Apple 260 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 3: say a few years back they've gone carbon neutral at 261 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 3: their facilities, and there's a lot of caveats with that 262 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: that I won't get into right now. And then you know, 263 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 3: earlier this year we had Microsoft come out and say, well, 264 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: we're going to be carbon negative. So would you see 265 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 3: this kind of competition within these companies to kind of 266 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: show off your green creds. And what none of these 267 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 3: companies to my knowledge, have decided to grapple with yet 268 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: is sort of this big elephant in the room of well, 269 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: how do you say your carbon neutral or how do 270 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 3: you say your carbon negative? If you're furnishing tools to 271 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: the very actors who are perpetuating our dependence on fossil fuelds, Like, 272 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 3: how do you say that? And that is a leap 273 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: that the tech industry really has not chosen to take yet. 274 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: And so, you know, could RW power find another cat 275 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 3: software provider maybe? Probably, But if Autodesk were to take 276 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 3: that step, would that still potentially have a kind of 277 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: large ripple effect on Silicon Valley's relationship with the fossil 278 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 3: fuel industry. I think it could. And another thing I'll 279 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 3: say that might provide a little bit more insight into 280 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: you know, why Autodesk has chosen not to engage with 281 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 3: this is the sources I spoke with, while they all 282 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 3: kind of universally agreed that choosing to cut off the 283 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 3: biggest carbon emitters would be a way of showing real 284 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 3: climate leadership, and that was something I think everyone felt 285 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: like they would like to see. Sources who were familiar 286 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 3: with Autodesk and sort of how its software licensing works, 287 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 3: pointed out that it would be difficult to implement such 288 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 3: a policy in practice because oftentimes Autodesk licenses software out 289 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 3: through these smaller intermediary companies, which then develop relationship with 290 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: the big you know, the excellence of the Chevrons and 291 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 3: what have you. So there might be a local company 292 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 3: that has software licenses and does training, and maybe they're 293 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 3: the ones furnishing our delee with the software, but maybe 294 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: they're also working with you know, Germany's wind industry or 295 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: a solar industry. So there are these kind of tricky 296 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: issues in terms of where would you draw the line 297 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 3: and how would such a policy be implemented in practice. 298 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 3: But at the same time, you know the fact that 299 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: there would be governance challenges with such a policy. I 300 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 3: don't think anyone feels like that's not a reason to try, 301 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 3: you know, anyone who's speaking about this seriously like, yeah, 302 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: it's going to be it's going to be hard work. 303 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 3: Tackling climate changes going to be hard work. 304 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: Indeed, tackling climate change is gonna be hard work. A 305 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: marketing program and giving some free software to green building 306 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: people is probably not going to move the needle. That's 307 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 2: it for this episode, but you can read Maddie's feature 308 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 2: on this on our website. We'll link to it in 309 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: the show notes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you 310 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: next time.