1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: In that time. In those years, people were dying by 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: the thousands. Death was just everywhere. Every family was touched 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: directly by death. On this episode of the Bargarase podcast, 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: will be looking into the life of a man whose 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: legacy is wrought with conflict. To Americans who lived in 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: the Ohio River Valley, he was a folk hero, but 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to the Native Americans he hated and murdered in cold blood. 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: He was known as the Death Wind. I went to 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: the Ohio Valley to interview outdoor writer and author Chip 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: Gross to learn about the life of Lewis Wetsel. This dark, 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,959 Speaker 1: deep dive comes at the request of one Steve Rannella 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: of Meat Eater, who is also a guest on this episode, 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about Wetsell's life and the brutality of 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: the American Frontier. Lastly, in an effort to understand the 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: mind frame of Wetzel, I'll interview mental health professional Zack 16 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: Knucom to learn if our boy Wetzel was truly a sociopath, 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: a serial killer, or where his action simply the result 18 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: of a life lived in a war zone. And yep, 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: Zack's my brother. I doubt you're gonna want to miss 20 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: this one, and hey, I know a lot of you 21 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: folks let your young kids listen to Bargaras, which I 22 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: absolutely love, but I'll warn you in this episode we 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: talked about some pretty gruesome and graphic stuff. There was 24 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: no guilt in his mind, there was no regret. It 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: was just I've got to do this, and it continued 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: doing it basically until until the day he died. My 27 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: name is Clay Nukem, and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, 28 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight 29 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of 30 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: Americans who lived their lives close to the land, presented 31 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and 32 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the 33 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: places we explore. Well. In one of the stories that 34 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: I've written about him, I say, if he were alive today, 35 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: he would be labeled a serial killer, and he really would. 36 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: But he hated Indians. He wasn't killing white people, but 37 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: he was killing Indians. He would kill hostile Indians. He 38 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: would kill you know, not hostile Indians. He just just 39 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: hated them. And where I think this came from is 40 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: when he was younger. When he was just thirteen years old, 41 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: he and his brother, who was eleven, were taken captive 42 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: by Wyandots. He later that night he had his brother 43 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: escaped got back home. But he made a vow to 44 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: himself when he was a kid that he would kill 45 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 1: Indians anytime he could. And then later in life one 46 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: of his older brothers is killed by Indians. His father 47 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: is killed by Indians. So he had a real vendetta there. 48 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: The Shawnees called him long Knife, the Hurons called him destroyer, 49 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: and the Delawares called him death Wind. The death Wind 50 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: coming moving fast, crawls to him, and he's been a 51 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: looking for the men to burning kill. And when he's coming, 52 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: you can fill the death of chill. And he won't 53 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: stop blowing to his peace and then not his pal. 54 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: In the days of the Sender, we struck to survive 55 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: so that the hunger and me but stay. You know, 56 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: a man with a gun, he's stung too. To the people, 57 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: he was out of the wind. The cultural impact of 58 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: a frontiersman can often be gauged by if they have 59 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: a musical ballad written about them. This is one from 60 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: a band called the back Roads called the Ballad of 61 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: Lewis Wetzel. I love these old songs, and how about 62 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: those backup singers, And I'll give you a digital fifth 63 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: month if you've ever heard this one before. Louis Wetzel 64 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: is a controversial figure, and it's interesting to read about him, 65 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: hear him sung about, and see him honored, and then 66 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: go back into his life to try to make sense 67 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: of it. Many Americans in his time viewed him as 68 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: a hero, but to somebody was a criminal, a murderer, 69 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,679 Speaker 1: a madman. But the confusion isn't surprising. The time period 70 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: when the American frontier was being pushed into the middle 71 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 1: ground what is now Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee, heroes and 72 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: mad men could easily be confused because of overlapping traits. 73 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: Westel was by profession and Indian scout or Indian hunter, 74 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: and he became known as the most effective Euro American 75 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: single combat fighter potentially ever. He was believed to have 76 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: killed in one on one tussles as many as a 77 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: hundred Indians in his short forty five year life. He 78 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,799 Speaker 1: claimed to put a bit of silver in his bullet 79 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: to protect him from Indians. Some of his killing was 80 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: done on the clock, and some of it was done 81 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: with a recreational flair. He took scalps with pleasure, but 82 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: in doing so protected his people, elevating him to a 83 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: folk hero. There's a county and a wildlife management area 84 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: named after him in West Virginia, along with multiple businesses, parks, 85 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: and springs that still carries aim to this day. Born 86 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: in seventeen sixty three, Lewis Wetzel and his family did 87 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: some fighting in the Revolutionary War. It's also believed that 88 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: Lewis Wetsell served as a scout on the Lewis and 89 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: Clark expedition in eighteen o four. He served multiple prison 90 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: sentences and escaped once in a coffin. The Feller had 91 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: quite the resume. If you've been following bargaries, you know 92 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: that I'm prone to tell stories with crescendos of redemption. 93 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: This one doesn't have one. It swoops low, arcing towards darkness. 94 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: But lucky for us, darkness creates a context for light 95 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: to be seen, and I think by looking at the 96 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: roughest examples of a time period, it puts into context 97 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: others that we've learned about, like Boone, who compared to 98 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: Wetsel was the Billy Graham of the middle Ground. He 99 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: was a Saint. Chip Gross, the first voice you heard 100 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: on this podcast, has laid the founder sations of what 101 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: built Louis Wetzel. As a kid who was taken captive 102 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: by Indians and later his father and brother were killed 103 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: in a riverside bush whack. Louis made a vow that 104 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: he'd kill every Indian he ever saw as long as 105 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: he lived, and he proved to be a man of 106 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: his word. If you recall on the Mediator podcast, Steve 107 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: Ornella made a public petition to get me to tell 108 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: the story of Louis Wetzel, which I agreed to do 109 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: as long as he agreed to take to heart some 110 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: friendly advice on how to blow a crow. Call here's Steve. 111 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: Steve RONNELLA, how did you get connected and interested in 112 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: the Wetzel brothers. I'll answer that, but first I want 113 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: to thank you for doing this because I want to 114 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: learn more. I want to learn more about the Wetsels. 115 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by him. Even though I didn't know about 116 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: him that long ago, I became aware of him in 117 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: this way. I was interviewing a Daniel Boone historian and 118 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: in this we were talking about how Daniel Boone and 119 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: was this this very noble, ethical individual somewhat of opportunistically 120 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: pacifist when he could be. He was a pacifist when 121 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: he could be right. He was a friend of the 122 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: Native Americans when he could be sometimes went out of 123 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: his way to be that way. Talked remorsefully about taking 124 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: an Indian's life unnecessarily right. This historian ted Franklin Blue 125 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: then made a comment to me about some real bad 126 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: dudes and mentions the Wetzel Brothers. I didn't know who 127 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: they were, but a body of mine then text me, 128 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: how they do you not know about the wet Cels. 129 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: The Indians called him the death Wind, And that's when 130 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: I decided to start lobbying you to do a thing 131 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: about the wets You'll hear us throughout this referring to 132 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: the Wetzel Brothers. But the most famous Wetzel, and the 133 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: one we're talking about the most is gonna be Lewis Wetzel. 134 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: Lewis was born on a section of the Wilderness Road 135 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: in West Virginia in seventeen sixty three, wrapped in a 136 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: union jack flagged his father and mother were on their 137 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: way to homestead on Big Wheeling Creek in the panhandle 138 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: of West Virginia, fourteen miles from the Ohio River. It 139 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: seems your life is usually more exciting if you're from 140 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: the pan handle of a state. Nine states have panhandles. 141 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: That's not relevant. His father was considered by many to 142 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: be reckless or maybe just naive because of how far 143 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: he settled from permanent white settlements. He was way back 144 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: on the very edge of the frontier, and it was 145 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: a time of great instability and constant guerrilla warfare between 146 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: whites and Native Americans. The wet Cels ended up having 147 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: seven children, and they had seven peaceful years before Wyan 148 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: Dots burned their cabin and captured Lewis AND's younger brother, Jacob. 149 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: Four of seven Wetzel children would be captured by Indians 150 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: at one point in their life, and a couple of 151 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: them got captured more than once. That's an incredible stat 152 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: Here's the story of Louis's beginning, and you begin to 153 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: see the inklings of the young Louis's uncanny ability to 154 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: navigate backwoods life. So in seventeen seventy six, he and 155 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: his younger brother, Jacob, who was eleven were kidnapped by 156 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: Native Americans. They're working corn and the boys had seen 157 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: a black bear. They had reported seeing a black bear 158 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: around the cornfields, and Louis thought the black bear looked funny, 159 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: and so he goes back and tells his dad Martin. 160 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: The older brother says, saw bear, and Louis goes, I 161 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: don't think it was a bear. I think it was 162 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: an Indian in a bear skin. And it kind of 163 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: red flagged the family. Well, sure enough, that night they 164 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: hear something and they're kind of on red alert and 165 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: they look outside and they see an Indian coming up 166 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: to him, and the dad shoots and kills the Indian. 167 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: This isn't when he gets kidnapped, Well, it's connected to that. 168 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: That brings retribution from the other Native Americans. Within a 169 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: couple of weeks or a couple of days, he and 170 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: his brother Wetstle thirteen, Jacob Levin are kidnapped, straight up, 171 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: kidnapped by and that's when he got shot. He was 172 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: in a cornfield and a bullet grazed his chest. He 173 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: gets caught and they stay in captivity for two days 174 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: before he makes a pretty daring escape and and he 175 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: showed a lot of intuition inside of situations with Native Americans, 176 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: even from when he was young. Like they had him 177 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: tethered with like leather straps, and they had him tethered 178 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: up at night, he and the brother together and they 179 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: started moaning about the straps being too tight. The guys 180 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: come over and loosen their straps. Long story short, they 181 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: escape after the guys are all asleep. This it sounds 182 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: like five or six guys. It's a detail about this 183 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: escape that that starts really speaking to his sort of 184 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: coolness and also just kind of the person he was 185 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: where the Indians had taken his father's rifle and here 186 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: he is like at any second, as far as he knows, 187 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: he's gonna get tom a hawker or taken and has 188 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: the has the run a gauntlet. You could get killed 189 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,599 Speaker 1: doing that, Like this guy has no idea. He gets away, 190 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: but they don't want to leave without recovering their old 191 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: man's gun. And there's like a detail too that the 192 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: Indians had moccasins that they were drying by the fire, 193 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: but they shrunk up. The boys couldn't get the moccasins 194 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: on their feet and had to go down to the 195 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: creek stole the moccasins, but then had to go down 196 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: to the creek and soak those buckskin, not moccasins, in 197 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: order to get him stretched out enough to pull him 198 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: over to their feet and then take off right. So 199 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: rather running off free, running off barefoot without the old 200 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: man's gun, they get free, get their old man's gun, 201 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 1: get some footwear, and then take off well. And the 202 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: story was he had to go back, so they they 203 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: escaped and actually left the camp and in they realized 204 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: they didn't have shoes. This is a version Almontel's. They 205 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 1: didn't have shoes, they didn't have the gun, and they 206 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: go and he and Wetzel sneaks back into the camp 207 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: and gets the stuff and comes back out, which is risky. 208 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like the guy was laying on something, 209 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: you have to kind of get it off under his head. 210 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: Almond didn't go into that that detail, but that was 211 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: the foundation, which would be the vowel that Lewis Wetzel 212 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: made as a young boy that he was gonna kill 213 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: every you know, Native American that he came in contact with, 214 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: and not in an Don't it sounds so weird to 215 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: seeing an organized fashion, not with the military, not in 216 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: support of like military campaigns, not in support of any 217 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: kind of strategy. It was just like in and of itself, 218 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: even to kill allies. Stuff that happens in a person's 219 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: childhood is always an important player in their life, whether 220 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: good or bad, were foreigned by our experiences, and I 221 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: do believe that we have a choice of how we 222 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: respond to the good and the bad. Later in the 223 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: podcast will hear from a mental health professional on this stuff. 224 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: Here's the account of the first time Louis killed a 225 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: Native American. As a matter of fact, he killed three 226 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: when Louis was sixteen years old, So this is three 227 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: years after he and his brother Jacob had been captured. 228 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: They went on a mission with a bunch of adults 229 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: to retrieve some stolen horses. So a group of Indians 230 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: that stole horses. His dad's horse was in the mix, 231 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: and so they go out. The guy's getting a little 232 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: shoot out with the Indians, and the adults retreat and 233 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: Wetzel goes back and it's like, what are y'all doing? 234 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: And they go, well, YadA, YadA, YadA, and he goes, well, 235 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm going back in and he basically employed a tactic 236 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: that he used most of his life in certain situations, 237 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: and that tactic was they called it being treated when 238 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: in the Indians would retreat but hide and be waiting 239 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: for you. And basically he knew where these Indians were 240 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: hiding out, and he snuck in there, and he put 241 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: his hat on the end of his gun and leaned 242 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: it out from behind the tree. He knew that they 243 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: were watching him, and when they shot and hit his hat, 244 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: they thought they killed him, and so they exposed themselves. 245 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: And he had a loaded musket. So a one shot 246 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: musket was a real big deal back in those days, 247 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: because you pretty much had one shot and then you 248 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: had forty five seconds to two minutes of loading a gun, 249 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: depending on how fast you were. So they shot, they 250 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: thought they killed the guy, and then Wetzel lets him 251 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: get in close, steps out. It's two Indians, shoots one 252 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: in the chest and takes off running. And what they 253 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: didn't know, and what he became known for was he 254 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: could reload on the run. And he became famous throughout 255 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: that part of the world in the Native American tribes 256 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: for always having his gun loaded. But he could he 257 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: could load on the run, and so he runs and 258 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: the these guys already shot their bullet, and so he 259 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: takes after him, and then he runs for however long, 260 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: and then his turns with a loaded gun and shoots, 261 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: and the they've never seen anything like that. And so 262 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: he came back with all these grown men. It was like, 263 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: holy cow, who is this kid? Came back with scalps. 264 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: They they collected scalps like trophies. I don't want to 265 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: glaze over the act of scalping a dead enemy. I 266 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: think it's easy to go numb to the brutality of 267 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: the act. Maybe it's Hollywood books. I don't know, but 268 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: scalping started in Native American warfare, and then as Europeans 269 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: got involved, many took up the practice. Perhaps it was 270 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: unrestrained retribution, or maybe it was to communicate with their 271 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: enemies in a way that they could understand. Anyhow, the 272 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: sixteen year old Wetsel took three e scalps that day 273 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: by what would become known as Wessel Spring near St. Clair'sville, Ohio. 274 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: Lewis's success in guerrilla warfare was that he could load 275 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: his gun extremely quickly. Ship Gross is from the Ohio Valley. 276 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: He's retired. Game Warden authored multiple books and has had 277 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: over one thousand of his articles published about hunting shooting 278 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: in Frontiersman. Years ago he took an interest in Lewis Wetzel, 279 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: and here he'll give us a critical detail of how 280 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: he was able to reload so fast. Now Here, here's 281 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: another wilderness skill that he had, and not many other 282 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: frontiersman had it. Simon Kenton could do it. A few 283 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: others could do it, but reloading on the run, and 284 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: he was very very good at this. And what he 285 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: would do he was he would take two or three 286 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: lead bullets and actually put him in his mouth. Believe 287 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: it or not. Now this was before they knew much 288 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: about lead poisoning. I'm sure it. He didn't seem to care. 289 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 1: He would carry these extra bullets in his mouth and 290 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: that would help him reload much quicker on the run. 291 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: Some historians in the past have written that Lewis got 292 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: lead poisoning from all the mouth bullet stuff and it 293 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: turned him into a madman. Though that can't be healthy. 294 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: I don't think that's the only culprit to his obsession 295 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: with killing. Here's chip with more unloading a musket fast. 296 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Once you're the firearm is empty, what you have to 297 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: do is you have to pour powder down the barrel 298 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: and then you step one. That step one. Step two 299 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: is then you have to take a bullet which was 300 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: a round ball, lead ball, and drive it down against 301 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: that powder with a ramrod. And then the last step 302 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: is to take a small amount of powder and put 303 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: it in the pan, the firing pan. That's not easy 304 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: to do, and then you have to hope that everything 305 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: is going to work when you pull a trigger, because 306 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: a lot of times a gun might fire called a 307 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: flash in the pain in, but the powder in the 308 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: barrel doesn't go off, and sometimes that did. That did 309 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: happen with him, And then you're down to hand to 310 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: hand combat, and he was good at that too. He 311 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: had all the wilderness skills. You know, it's interesting now 312 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: we're all used to firearms, and we're used to firearms 313 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: that shoot cartridges that are essentially fail proof. Just pull 314 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: the trigger and a gun goes off. That that's no 315 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: longer a question. But during this time period, a warrior's 316 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: world was dominated by this possibility that his gun wouldn't 317 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: go off when he absolutely needed it to. Number one, 318 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: and then number two, he was dominated by this limitation 319 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: of time. You get one shot, boomb and then you 320 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: have to go through a pretty detailed sequence of events 321 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: to get it loaded again. And so that was actually 322 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: a tactic of Wetzel in his fighting, was that he 323 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 1: could reload so quick that the Indians knew that if 324 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: a guy shot, there was a span of time when 325 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: he couldn't shoot again, and they would rush in. They 326 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: would they would draw the volley of their their enemies 327 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: and then they would say, Okay, now we've got a 328 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: minute before they can reload, and we're gonna go in 329 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: and take him hand to hand or whatever. And that's 330 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: where Louis Wetzel, I mean, that was his trick, was 331 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: that he he could I mean, it would be interesting 332 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: to actually have the data on it. I mean, could 333 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: he do it? Could he do it twice as quick? 334 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: Could he do it? Of the time? Louis being able 335 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: to reload his gun fast was probably his most valued skill. 336 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: I want to read you an excerpt from the book 337 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: The Life in Times of Lewis Wetzel by C. B. Almond. 338 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: This book was published in nineteen thirty one. At the 339 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: age of seventeen, Wetzel maybe said to have entered on 340 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: his life's work, that of hunting Indians the warfare with 341 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: the Reds was not restrained by proclamations or politicians. It 342 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: was a free fight. Anybody could enter and keep at 343 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: it as long as he liked. The rules were simple 344 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: and consisted of get his scalp. Wetstel was a stern, sober, 345 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: silent sort of person, never boasting of his exploits, but 346 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: pursuing his way with the tennacy, which made his name 347 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: as much feared by the foe as they were hated 348 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: by him. He shunned the company of other people and 349 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: was never so content as when roaming the forest like 350 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: a wild animal. Wetzel's picturesque appearance, joined with his growing 351 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: reputation for daring, added to his popularity with border folks. 352 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: Five ft ten inches tall, unusually strong and well developed 353 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: in arms and shoulders, slight and active of limb, with 354 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: piercing black eyes, scowling brow, and black hair, which, when 355 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: combed out, hung to his knees. This ranger was the 356 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: ject of much approval on part of the young ladies 357 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: at the settlement. Graceful, morose, fascinating, and blind to their charms, 358 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: the dashing youth doubtless reeked considerable havoc among the feminine 359 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: hearts not recorded by tradition or listed in printed tales 360 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: of the Frontier. His true love was the long trail 361 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: and the thrill of the encounter. End of quote. The 362 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: intel that we have about Wetzel is sparse, and many 363 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: authors have published contradicting stories. There are three main books 364 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: about Wetzel that I found. One is CB Almond's book 365 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: The Life and Times of Louis Wetzel, which I thought 366 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: was pretty good. Another by Robert Myers, published in eighteen ninety, 367 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: was called Lewis Wetzel, which honestly I didn't think was 368 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: that well written, sorry man. And the latest was in 369 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: nine called That Dark and Bloody River by the famed 370 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: author Alan Eckhart. It's not all out Wetzel, but he 371 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: talks about the Wetzel brothers. Lastly, the author who's attributed 372 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: with making Lewis's nickname the Death Wind famous was a 373 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: novelist named Zane Gray, which in his book The Spirit 374 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: of the Border used the nickname because Gray's novels, which 375 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: were fiction, used the Wetsel brothers as characters, which is 376 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: kind of confusing, so it's not a clear where the 377 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: nickname came from. But a poem called the Ballad of 378 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: Lewis Wetzel, written by Glenn Baker, gave me the only 379 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: true citation of the Death Wind that I could find. 380 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: Chip is a native Ohioan and he has studied Wetzell 381 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: a lot. And here's him describing what he knows about 382 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: the nickname the Death Wind. And the death Wind name 383 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: was kind of interesting because where that comes from is 384 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: you probably know, if you take a muzzle loading rifle 385 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: and you blow over the into the barrel, you get 386 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: kind of a hollow sound, like blowing over a bottle, 387 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 1: you know, empty bottle, that type of thing. And he 388 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: would he would use that to mess with the Indians 389 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: if he got up to a group of Indians, maybe 390 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: an Indian camp, and there was too many for them 391 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: for him to take on. He would get within hearing 392 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: distance and he would blow across the top of that 393 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: muzzle to let him know I'm here, you know, and 394 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: I may be coming for you tonight, and me may 395 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: the next night and maybe down the road, you know, 396 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: two or three months. And so that's where death Wind comes. 397 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: And another part he grew his hair very long. He 398 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 1: was a big man. Crew his hair which was totally 399 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: black as long as he could, which was knee length, 400 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: and he was basically taunting the Indians, come take it 401 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: from me if he can, and none ever did. It's 402 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: striking to imagine a buckskin frontiersman with cold black hair 403 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: down to his calves, and apparently he wore his hair 404 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: this long until his death. Glenn Baker's poem agrees with 405 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: chips version of what death wind means. But I've heard 406 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: three possible sources of the nickname. Number one being blowing 407 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: over the end of a muzzle to intimidate Indians. Number two, 408 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: someone inferred that he had a trademark screamed that he 409 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: made when he killed an Indian, and the escape ees 410 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: said it was like a death wind. Lastly, some have 411 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: thought it just meant he swept quietly through the woods, 412 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: dealing out death like a death wind. Here's Steve on 413 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: Lewis's start as an Indian scout. At age seventeen, he 414 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: became a full time Indian scout. It was like an employment. 415 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: I don't know how he gets the settlements would have 416 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, you hear him described as militia, and then 417 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: there was so you had like these informal militias. Then 418 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: you had rangers which were more tightly like like Samuel 419 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: Bray who was a contemporary at Lewis wetzel Um who 420 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: was under employ of the army, like underemployee with the army, 421 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: but ran a group of frontiersmen who were known as rangers. 422 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: But these were guys who were just on the lookout 423 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: for raiding parties. And the thing they might do is 424 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: they might just travel the north shore or the south 425 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: shore of the Ohio and pick up tracks going one way, 426 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: follow those tracks to see if they had stolen anything, 427 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: intercept tracks of Indians that were coming south, and alert villages, 428 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: alert settlements of what's coming. If there was were kidnappings 429 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: or burning of buildings, they might get on the trail 430 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: and follow to go get retribution. And at any given 431 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: time there were any any small collection of these groups 432 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: out doing like the scouting or these groups, these frontiers 433 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: might also ally themselves with the military, and when the 434 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: military is going to do like a formal campaign, they're 435 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: out ahead to find where they're camped to make sure 436 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: they don't fall into ambushes. Um saying, like like a 437 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: in Vietnam, the long range reconnaissance patrollers, they were just 438 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: out in the jungle, listening, looking, gathering intelligence. When you 439 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: understand that too, it helps understand why these guys. You 440 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: give some context for why they were doing what they 441 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: were doing, and why that these guys would be potential 442 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: folk heroes, not even folk heroes, like just legitimate cultural heroes, 443 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: because they were the ones that were protecting quote unquote 444 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: the first line of defense and also delivered. Imagine you're 445 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: a Euro American, you're a white setter at this time, 446 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: your child's abducted, and someone delivers your child back to you. 447 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the things that made Boon famous. 448 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: It's the most kind of like iconic hero tales what's 449 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: never looked back after becoming an Indian scout. Here will 450 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: learn some of his exploits that made him a folk 451 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: hero of the region amongst the whites. Wetzel, there's two 452 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: times that he was documented on having saved somebody's wife, 453 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: and it was the same story. Both times, He's out 454 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 1: hunting with somebody or traveling with a man and the 455 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: woman was back home, you know, with a family. Two 456 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: different times he went back with the guy and found 457 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: the cabin burned and the family gone. And usually the 458 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: usually the women were spared, and the children also painting 459 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: an idea for just the brutality of the era. The 460 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: first guy, his last name was Touch. He was hunting 461 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: with his a young guy, and I don't even think 462 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: they had kids. But there was an extended family there 463 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: with some men and the man's new wife. And they 464 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: they they're going to have dinner, you know. I mean, 465 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: they're like coming home. And they get there and they 466 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: see smoke, and they come and they find the dead 467 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: bodies of all the men scattered about, and the hogs 468 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: had gotten loose their their tame hogs and had eaten 469 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: the bodies, like had just mangled the bodies. And then 470 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: but the woman is missing, and Lewis wets I mean 471 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: it sounds like a movie, you know, Louis Wetstell finds 472 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: the tracks of a size six woman shoe going off 473 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: with the moccasins, you know, and so they know that 474 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: she's alive. And so it takes them two days, but 475 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: they catch them and kill the Indians and save the lady. 476 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: And I mean that was a common story. It's hard 477 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: for us to put ourselves into the shoes of people 478 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: who lived in an era with such brutality. Here Chip 479 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: will tell us the story, showing us that Louis's killing 480 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: of Indians was motivated by far more than it being 481 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: his employment. He was cold blooded. There was a time 482 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: he was living in the Marietta area, which Mariette is 483 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: a town right on the Ohio River. It's the oldest 484 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: town in Ohio. I think it's the oldest town in 485 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: the Northwest Territory. At one point, the people there were 486 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: getting tired of the Indian wars and so forth, and 487 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: they decided, we have to try and settle this, you know, 488 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: make a treaty or do something. So they got ahold 489 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: of a bunch of tribes and they said, let's get together. 490 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: Let's let's have a piece of about three months. And 491 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: the tribes agreed, and they camped about two miles north 492 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: of the river and would walk back and forth to 493 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: Marietta for meetings and that kind of thing. Well, there 494 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: was one Seneca chief who always walked by himself, which 495 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: was not good. Guess who was living there and noticed 496 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: this Lewis. And Lewis knew that these were, you know, 497 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: not hostile Indians at this time, but he didn't care. 498 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: So at one one day he lays for this chief, 499 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: and as soon as he got within you know, fifty yards, 500 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: he steps out from cover, didn't say anything, just pulls 501 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: his rifle up and shoots and hits him in the chest. 502 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: Of course, the chief goes down, he runs up, he 503 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: scouts him, runs off, and everybody knows who this guy. 504 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: Had long black hair, he had a particular colored hat, 505 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. So they go grab Lewis. They put 506 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: him on trial and they bluntly asked him, Lewis, did 507 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: you did you kill this Indian? Yes? I did, and 508 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: he he wasn't didn't feel guilty about it, no remorse, 509 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: no nothing. So the judgment was, well, you're you're going 510 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: to hang for this. What I haven't told you yet 511 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: is that this wasn't the first time that Lewis killed 512 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: an emissary of peace. In Lewis Tomahawk, the Delaware chief 513 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: that was involved in peace talks, but the war, combined 514 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: with weak Backwoods justice, meant that nothing was done to Lewis. 515 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: The murder Chip told us about took place in Sight nine, 516 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: and Lewis was sentenced to hang for the murder of 517 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: the Seneca chief to Gunta. However, he broke out of 518 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: jail two consecutive times and was recaptured, but was ultimately 519 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: released and functionally acquitted of the murder when the famous 520 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: backwoodsman Simon Kenton brought a large gang of Ruffians to 521 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: the jail and demanded Wetsel be left free. Are they 522 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: taken by force? So they let him go. Kenton coming 523 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: to Wessel's aid shows the favorable reputation that he had 524 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: in the region. This wouldn't be the last time that 525 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: Wetzel ended up in jail though. Here's Chip with more 526 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: insight into Wetzel's tactics for killing that showed his brutality 527 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: and the mind frame he had. And this is interesting too. 528 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: I think Lewis was at times just over the edge. 529 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: You can be courageous, but you can also be stupid sometimes. 530 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: And he got to the point where he didn't care 531 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: if he was outnumbered two or three to one. He'd 532 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: figure out a way to kill those Indians. And there's 533 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: several times where he was tracking Indians and might come 534 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: across a group of just two or three. So he 535 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: figured out that instead of just charging in the camp, 536 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: just let him go to sleep. You're going they're going 537 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: to go to sleep sooner or later. And there's several 538 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: times this story is told. But after they were asleep, 539 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: he would slip in there with knife in one hand 540 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: and tomahawk and the other and drive the knife into 541 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: the heart of one, tomahawk the other and if the 542 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: third one heard something and jumped up, he'd get the 543 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: same thing and he would kill all three. I mean, 544 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: he was that obsessed with with killing Indians, and he 545 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: was that good at it. Uh, it's scary to talk about. 546 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: He was very much a warrior, you know, he really was. 547 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: And uh. And again there was no there was no 548 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: guilt in his mind, there was no regret. It was 549 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: just I've got to do this. And he continued doing 550 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: it basically until until the day he died. I heard 551 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: them mention and and this put it into context for me, 552 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: is that he viewed killing an Indian no different than 553 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: he viewed killing a bear, which is a kind of 554 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,439 Speaker 1: a wild thought. The cultures were so different that they 555 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people back at that time, What's Will 556 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: probably included, did not think of Indians as human beings. 557 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how you can do that, and we 558 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: certainly today aren't there. But there was a time in 559 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: history when people thought that that they're not humans. They're 560 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: like us, but they're not humans, so we can we 561 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: can go ahead and kill them. Yeah, and it's it's 562 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: hard for us in to put our mind there. Well really, 563 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a trend inside of human nature. And 564 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: it makes it easier to kill your enemy if you 565 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: think they're not human. That's part of this archeological aspect 566 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: of it. If that person is not a person and 567 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: they're a bear, that's a lot easier. Yeahs almost like 568 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: a coping mechanism for guilt. And you build that into 569 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: your culture, and your dad tells you that, and his 570 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: dad told him that, And it's time you're young, you're 571 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: taught that, you know, and then the more you do it, 572 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: the less you're bothered by it. The human story is 573 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: wrought with tragedy, and in North America, the de humanization 574 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: of indigenous people is one that happened here, but to 575 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: be historically accurate, many Native American ideologies didn't believe the 576 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: white man to be fully human either. The Shawnees believed 577 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: that whites were of a lesser order and were created 578 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: by an inferior god to the one that made them, 579 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: and in turn, they were often extremely brutal towards the 580 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: white interlopers who invaded and took over their ancestral lands. 581 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: Was a bloody and wild time period. I think this 582 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: would be a good time to talk briefly about some 583 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: of the other Wetzel brothers, because you're gonna need to 584 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: just know they were there. Louis's older brother, Martin, was 585 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 1: the second most notorious of the brothers. He once executed 586 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: sixteen Native captives with his tomahawk, and he once snuck 587 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: up behind an Indian in the midst of a peace 588 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: negotiation and literally split his skull with a tomahawk. Martin 589 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: was once captured by Native Americans and was their captive 590 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: for over a year, and by deceit he gained their 591 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: trust and then escaped after murdering one by one the 592 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: three Indians he was hunting. With John Wetzel Jr. Another brother, 593 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: He once infiltrated an Indian village by dressing like an Indian. 594 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: He stayed undercover for several days before he murdered two 595 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: Indians outside the village and later complained about only bringing 596 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: home two scalps. All the Wetzel brothers were involved in 597 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,959 Speaker 1: this war and in murder and Indians. Now, let's talk 598 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: about a critical moment in the Wetzel Brothers young adult life. 599 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: The biggest marker and understanding who Lewis Wetzel was and 600 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: all the Wetzel brothers and why they did what they 601 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: did was when their father was killed. And it was 602 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: in seven and it was Louis, his brother Martin, his 603 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: brother George, and his dad. So four Wetzel's father and 604 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: three sons. They're in a canoe on the Ohio River 605 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: or some type of boat on the Ohio River, and 606 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: they get ambushed from the bank for no apparent reason 607 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: and essentially kill John wetzl Sr. And George Wetzel. And 608 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: so the two that are alive are Martin and Lewis, 609 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: and they survive in kind of a wild story of 610 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: jumping in the water and being on the back side 611 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: of the boat. And they go and make retribution for 612 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: their father and kill a couple of the Indians that 613 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: were a part of this. And they say that that 614 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: was that was the thing that solidified his vow. So 615 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: he's made this vow when he was a young boy, 616 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: after being captured when he's thirteen, he becomes a scout 617 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: when he's seventeen and then at twenty three, his dad 618 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: and brother get killed in front of him. They bury 619 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: him in a shallow grave on the banks of the 620 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: Ohio River and Hickory bark coffins, so that that that 621 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: like solidified the next twenty years of his life. Before 622 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: he died of of he was just gonna kill everybody 623 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: that he could find. This is a great place to 624 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: try to venture into the mind of Lewis Wetzel. Zach 625 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: Nukem is a clinical social worker, but he has also 626 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: served as the clinical director of a psychiatric hospital. He 627 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: spent his career in the mental health field, and I 628 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: wanted to get some clarity on the possible conditions of 629 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: somebody with a resume like Wetzel. And yep, Zack is 630 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: my brother, older brother. You know, as you described for 631 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: me Wetzel, in his life, a couple of things pop 632 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 1: out that would that I would want to explore deeper. 633 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: One would be his the initial childhood trauma that he experienced. 634 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: You've got to go there. To me as a as 635 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: a clinician, I'm gonna you know, PTSD is something that's 636 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: going to be strong on my radar. Honestly, with trauma 637 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: like that it would be hard for me to believe 638 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: that there's not PTSD there, right, Sure, I mean that's 639 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: pretty you know, post traumatic post traumatic stress disorder from 640 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: as a child being distressed by confrontation with these Indians 641 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: being kidnapped. Yep. Absolutely, it just grew through his life 642 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 1: probably yep. So you've got that trauma right there, which 643 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: changes a man, right, that changes a human being. And 644 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: then as you described to me the environment he lived in, 645 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: which my understanding, I mean he was basically that was 646 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: his profession, was to kill Native Americans. And so as 647 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: you described that to me, the first thing that comes 648 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: to my mind is, I mean, that's not that's not 649 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: an environment in any of us, at least in the 650 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: US live in today for the most part. I mean, 651 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: that's a war zone. What you're describing to me as 652 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: a war zone. And so you know, so if you're 653 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: assessing anisocial personality disorder or or is somebody a sociopath, 654 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: you know it is a soldier a sociopath for doing 655 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: what he does in on the battlefield. Right, So those 656 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: are things you're gonna have to take into account. So 657 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: the context matters, The context matters, The context matters, that's 658 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: good to know. I asked Zack if he would be 659 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: able to diagnose Wetzel, and here's what he said after 660 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: he almost slapped me. So it would be unethical. It 661 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: is unethical for me to diagnose someone who's not in 662 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: front of me, that I'm not actively assessing. So when 663 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: people ask me these things, Hey, this character from the past, 664 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: or this that and the other or there, you know, 665 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: it happens to me all the time, like, hey, my 666 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: brother is doing these things, or my boyfriend or my girlfriend, 667 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: are they a psychopath? Right? I can kind of look 668 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: at things, little story worries, and they're all kind of 669 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: anecdotal right at this point in time, and I can say, hey, 670 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: you know what, if they were coming into my office 671 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: and I had this information, I can say, you know what, 672 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: these are things I'd be looking for. Okay, man, Okay. 673 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: So it's unethical to go back and diagnose someone that 674 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: you can't actually speak with. That is good to know. 675 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: So now let's learn about sociopaths psychopaths and how both 676 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,800 Speaker 1: of these fall under the category of anti social personality 677 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: disorder and people throw around like you just throughout the 678 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: like sociopath sociopath is not an official diagnosis. It's a 679 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 1: just kind of a term to describe a set of behaviors, right, 680 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: and so sociopath and psychopath fall into under the category 681 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: most of the time of antisocial personality disorder. So what 682 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: is the sociopath? So, if you're looking at sociopath versus psychopath, 683 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: which is kind of the easiest way to see them, 684 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: sociopath would be somebody who you know, they lack empathy 685 00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: for others. Generally speaking, the sociopath is aggressive, Like there's 686 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of anger outbursts, there's a lot 687 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 1: of aggression. The sociopath, they can be uh, demonstrative and 688 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: and and people explosive. But also, like what I'm trying 689 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: to get at is people can you know, enjoy their 690 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: company to a certain degree because they're they're wild and 691 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: crazy and fun. Okay, so they could be like almost 692 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: normal people in some social settings. Yeah, Now the psychopath 693 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: more the contrast of that would be the psychopath would 694 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: again not have the the emotional connection to people, not 695 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: really feel empathy, but generally speaking, would be able to 696 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,720 Speaker 1: discern I'm gonna laugh and smile to manipulate this person, 697 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: but really they're not laughing and inside that's a psychopath, 698 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: have very clinical, very very unfeeling. So do you think 699 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: a guy that would have killed this many humans, he 700 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: could fall under a category of a sociopath. Yeah, okay, 701 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: so somebody like Wetzel could be considered a sociopath. But 702 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: this is the main source of the problem, this antisocial 703 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: personality disorder. We need to learn what this is, alright, 704 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: So and that social personality disorder. And this is straight 705 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: from the ds M five, which is the diagnostic manual. 706 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: This is straight from the textbook. This is textbook. So 707 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: somebody from them to meet that criteria, they have to 708 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: meet three or more of the following. Okay, Failure to 709 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as 710 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 1: indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest, 711 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: so check. Check. Deceitfulness as indicated by repeated lying, use 712 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: of aliases or conning others for personal profit or pleasure. 713 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 1: I would say, check, would you okay, you know him 714 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: more than me? Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead. Man, 715 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 1: I might fit into that one, see that one. At 716 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: least based on the story. Those those three things, No, 717 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: there's more. There's a list of seven here. That will go. 718 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: He's got to have at least oh, he's got to 719 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: have at least three, at least three of the sew. 720 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,439 Speaker 1: We can't diagnose him because that wouldn't be Yeah, yeah, 721 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,040 Speaker 1: we're not gonna do it. But this is like a 722 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: good guideline. Irritability and aggressiveness as indicated by repeated physical 723 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: fights or assaults chick. See okay, I mean he compulsed, 724 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: he killed people just constantly. Yeah, but in the context 725 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: of war. Yeah, so then reckless disregard for safety of 726 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: self or others. Check. Consistent irresponsibility is indicated by repeated 727 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. Check. Counterfeiting. Uh. 728 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 1: Lack of remorse as indicative by being indifferent to or 729 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, they're stolen from another. Oh wow, 730 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 1: triple check. So based on those criteria, those seven, well, 731 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: he for sure had six. This is a diagnosis. But 732 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: these are the things Zach would be looking into if 733 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: Louis Wetzel came into his office. So as we move forward, 734 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: the definition of a serious killer is simply someone who 735 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: has murdered more than one person. Here are Zack's final 736 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: thoughts from everything I'm hearing in our conversation. If you 737 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: very potentially have the labeling of a serial killer, you 738 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,720 Speaker 1: very potentially have the labeling of a sociopath or somebody 739 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: with antisocial personality disorder, uh, and you highly likely have 740 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: some post traumatic stress disorder. We're going to learn that 741 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,760 Speaker 1: Wetzeld got into some serious trouble with some counterfeit money 742 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: later in his life. But I think this general checklist 743 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: is pointing us in the right directions we try to 744 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: understand it. What I learned about this antisocial personality disorder 745 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: is that it's very serious and that really less than 746 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: five percent of the population could be diagnosed with it. 747 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean that you don't like being in 748 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: public or don't like talking to people. It actually doesn't 749 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: mean that at all. It means that a person wouldn't 750 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,800 Speaker 1: comply with the very basic premises of society, and a 751 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 1: high percentage of people in prison have this this order. 752 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 1: But let's get back into Wenzel's life and look at 753 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: the only thing we have, which are the stories that 754 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: are recorded about him. We're gonna tell two stories of 755 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: cold blooded bushwhacken murder that had to do with turkey hunting. 756 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: But first Steve will discuss the hazy nature of human storytelling. 757 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: You know, when you're talking about how stories get a 758 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: little messed up in the telling. Yeah, I have a 759 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: friend who tells me a great story that involves him. Okay, 760 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: so my buddy Ronnie tells me a story about Ronnie. 761 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,760 Speaker 1: I then tell my friend a story that happened to Ronnie. 762 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,800 Speaker 1: A couple of years goes by. My friend is talking 763 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: to Ronnie, telling Ronnie a story that happened to me. 764 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,760 Speaker 1: Towards the end of the story, Ronnie says, wait a minute, 765 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: that didn't happen to Steve. That's my story. Yeah, I 766 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,800 Speaker 1: bring that up where there's a there's like this apocryphal 767 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: Wetzell's story about a Native American who is hunting whites 768 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: by mimicking the sound of a wild turkey gobbling and 769 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 1: lures and and kills too. Who are He's targeting people 770 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: who are out hunting turkeys in the spring. He gobbles 771 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: when they come slipping in, he kills them. Lewis Wetzel 772 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 1: gets wind of this, sneaks into the area where he 773 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: knows this individual is hanging out, throws a rock to 774 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,800 Speaker 1: make a noise. The individual who's masquerading as a turkey 775 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,240 Speaker 1: reveals himself to see what the noise was, and Wetzel 776 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: out smarts the guy who's out smarting everything, and they 777 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 1: call that guy the gobbler Indian. And it's like, did 778 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: that really happen? You know what I mean? It's like 779 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: so crazy, but also so it's like a perfect story. 780 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: Alman tells that story, and he staked out where he 781 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: believes this Indian was. He got up in a bluff, 782 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: and there's actually a photo in this book of a 783 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: bluff that is believed to be where he shot the 784 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,319 Speaker 1: Indian from. And so it's like a place that they 785 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: think it happened, but it winds up being it's like, 786 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: how many adventures is one guy get to have? Yeah? 787 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: Well that and that's where it just starts to stack 788 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 1: up thick, because listen to this one, Steve. So somehow 789 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 1: they knew that there was some Native Americans hunting over 790 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: in this area and that they were keyed in on turkeys. 791 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,560 Speaker 1: Louis Wetzel had killed the turkey the day before, cuts 792 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,320 Speaker 1: off its foot, it's wingbone, and puts it in his pouch, 793 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: it said, and whether he was using that to turkey 794 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,239 Speaker 1: hunt because he was a good hunter too. I mean 795 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: he was making a living hunting essentially, I mean just 796 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,319 Speaker 1: for his own food. And you know when he was 797 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 1: in the frontier at least, and but he knows that 798 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: there's guys around, and what he does is he takes 799 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: the track. I'm pretty sure Lyman Draper is the one 800 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: that recorded this, so it would have been like third hand, 801 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,959 Speaker 1: Like Louis, it's a told a guy and that guy 802 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: told Draper, so you know, it's about as good as 803 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: we can get. And Louis said that he made turkey 804 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: tracks in the snow bank, so he didn't leave his tracks. 805 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,479 Speaker 1: He left turkey tracks and went up on the hill, 806 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: staked out a hundred yards away in a clearing, and 807 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,400 Speaker 1: he made the sound of a fly up a turkey 808 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: flying up to roost by slapping the wing strategy used 809 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,279 Speaker 1: by a modern but you use the wing to make 810 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: the fly down. But the difference between us and them, 811 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: we hunt him in the daylight, and they would hunt 812 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 1: him oftentimes sometimes in the dark. Well, he made this 813 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,280 Speaker 1: the loud sound of a turkey flying up to roost, 814 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 1: and then he had a wingbone call. And I mean 815 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: the guy the Native American appears and starts tracking those tracks, 816 00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: and he shoots him, kills him dead. I mean, so 817 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,719 Speaker 1: it's wild. You know, these stories, I think you have 818 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,359 Speaker 1: to can with a grain of salt, but you know 819 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: they come from I mean, that may be just the 820 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: way it happened, but it also might have been a 821 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,239 Speaker 1: fraction of the truth as well. What we know is 822 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,840 Speaker 1: that in that time, in those years, people were dying. 823 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:22,360 Speaker 1: By the thousands. Death was just everywhere. Every family was 824 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,720 Speaker 1: touched directly by death. You could not get through years 825 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,439 Speaker 1: without seeing dead people laying around. You couldn't get through 826 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: life without seeing mutilated corpses. You couldn't. Yeah, so was 827 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: every one of these little murder incidents or whatever he said, like, 828 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: is it? Like, I don't know. But what we do 829 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,800 Speaker 1: know there was a lot of people killing a lot 830 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: of people during those years and that part of the country. 831 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: Think about being in the spring Turkey woods here in 832 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: a gobble and trying to decide if somebody's trying to 833 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: lure you into kill you. That is next level. Here's 834 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,360 Speaker 1: the suite of stories that continued to paint a picture 835 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 1: of Wetzel's wild life. There's a story of once of 836 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: him escaping from Indians swimming. He swimming the Ohio River 837 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: a lot. You know, Whelan, West Virginia was right on 838 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,760 Speaker 1: the edge of the Ohio River and then the Ohio 839 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,879 Speaker 1: Territory was where a bunch of the stuff was going down. 840 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 1: Multiple times he swam the Ohio River in bad conditions 841 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 1: and once he and a buddy escaped. They had one horse. 842 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 1: They the buddy takes the horse for whatever reason, I 843 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,720 Speaker 1: guess he was riding it. The horse takes him across 844 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: the Ohio River swimming. Wetzel has to swim, and I 845 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,320 Speaker 1: mean they're fleeing for their life. And he gets across. 846 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: It's in the dead of winter and he's dieing a 847 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,320 Speaker 1: hypothermia and a story as they kill the horse, split 848 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: it down the middle, Wetzel crawls in the horse and 849 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,640 Speaker 1: survives hypothermia inside the horse. That's kind of a throwback 850 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,919 Speaker 1: to the old you know, you wonder where the guys 851 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,479 Speaker 1: at Star Wars got that when they killed There's there's 852 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: there's accounts as well of hide hunters, buffalo hide hunters 853 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: surviving storms inside you know, inside the abdominal cavities of 854 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: buffalo they kill. They didn't get it from Star Wars. Well, 855 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: I'm saying the Star Wars got Star Wars Spielberg. He 856 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 1: got it from those boys. Okay, in my knowledge of Wetzel, 857 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: this was his most cold blooded move ever. So in 858 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:31,360 Speaker 1: his adult life, Lewis was captured by Indians and he 859 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: he stayed with them for some period of time, and 860 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,879 Speaker 1: they capture him and they know who he is. And interestingly, 861 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,360 Speaker 1: inside of Native American culture, if they capture a great warrior, 862 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,600 Speaker 1: even from the enemy, they treat him different, you know, 863 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: I mean, like you'd think with us, it might be 864 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,960 Speaker 1: like kill him immediately, good, different always Because you know 865 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,280 Speaker 1: the story of Jacob great House, him and his wife, 866 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,959 Speaker 1: Jacob great House, the o're bad very much in the vein, 867 00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:00,280 Speaker 1: very much in the vein of Wetzel. Jacob Great Else 868 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: commit some atrocities, and when they caught him, they took 869 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,319 Speaker 1: him and his wife and they opened their bellies right 870 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:12,200 Speaker 1: above the pubic line, pulled out the lower intestine, tied 871 00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: it to a sapling, and made him go round and 872 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 1: round in circles. The wife died pretty young, but they 873 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,520 Speaker 1: say Jacob grey House went so far he pulled his 874 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,560 Speaker 1: own stomach out before he died. Because he had done 875 00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 1: some bad stuff, and he knew him and he paid 876 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,359 Speaker 1: for the bad things he did. In his case is unprovoked. 877 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,800 Speaker 1: Unprovoked killing of friendly people. Yeah, well, in the account 878 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 1: that is told by Wetzel, because he was the only 879 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: one there, they are trying to figure out what to 880 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,400 Speaker 1: do with him, because they've got a real trophy on 881 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,359 Speaker 1: their minds. This is a great warrior, and he can 882 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 1: hear him, and he can speak Delaware, and he can 883 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: speak multiple Native American languages fairly well, so he can 884 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: understand what they're saying. And they say, well, we're gonna 885 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 1: burn him at the state tomorrow. Pretty much, that's what 886 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,800 Speaker 1: they decide. But there is a war chief that didn't 887 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: like that idea, and in the night came and turned 888 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: Wetzel loose, freed him and actually gave him a gun 889 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,680 Speaker 1: and gave him a horse. And in his mind, a 890 00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: great warrior, even if it was a warrior against his 891 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,879 Speaker 1: own people, didn't deserve to die that way. What does 892 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:27,880 Speaker 1: Wetzel do shoots the guy that's turned him loose. That's 893 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,480 Speaker 1: cold blooded, brother. If you remember I mentioned that Louis 894 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,640 Speaker 1: and his family participated in the Revolutionary War. Here's a 895 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 1: war story. This is an interesting story. This is a 896 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,520 Speaker 1: revolutionary war story. Martin and Lewis are at Fort Bealer 897 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 1: in West Virginia. That they were in a log fort. 898 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,319 Speaker 1: The fort was being attacked by Native Americans, which they 899 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: were on the side of the British, and so and 900 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: and there was they saw where some guys were digging 901 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 1: a tunnel under the wall. And Lewis is standing there 902 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,919 Speaker 1: with his tomahawk and the first guy makes it under 903 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,320 Speaker 1: the wall, tomahawks him in the head. They go ahead 904 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,680 Speaker 1: and pull him through under the wall. Well, the Indian 905 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: behind that guy just sees his feet go under the wall. 906 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,239 Speaker 1: And there's a war going on, so they can't hear 907 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,440 Speaker 1: much and there's a thick wall there. Well, the second 908 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,000 Speaker 1: Indian goes under the wall, comes up, there's Louis Wetsel 909 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:29,120 Speaker 1: walk hits him, kills him. They kill six guys crawling 910 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,359 Speaker 1: under the wall and just stacking the bodies before they 911 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: finally figured out what was You know, I don't know, 912 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: they quit coming under the wall. Isn't that wild brutal? 913 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,200 Speaker 1: There are just too many stories to tell about Wessel, 914 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,080 Speaker 1: but I can't take a swing and telling you about 915 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: his life without telling you about this one. He ended 916 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 1: up in Louisiana and got involved in this counterfeiting money scam. 917 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,480 Speaker 1: Some say he got romantically involved with the Spanish officer's 918 00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: wife and was framed. I would imagine the black locks 919 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 1: down to his calves would have been hard to look 920 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 1: away from him for some women. But that's neither here 921 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,600 Speaker 1: nor there. But however it went down, he went to 922 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 1: prison twice for counterfeit money. However, just like the first 923 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,880 Speaker 1: time he went to prison, he found a way to 924 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 1: get out. But the wild thing is is so the 925 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: second time that he escaped from confinement, and he was 926 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 1: in a real prison at this time, was he got 927 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,759 Speaker 1: someone on the outside to bribe the head of the 928 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: prison paid him money, and Lewis Wetzel fakes being sick 929 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,600 Speaker 1: and fakes his own death and they carry him out 930 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,120 Speaker 1: in a coffin like Louis Wetzel's dead. I mean, the 931 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,160 Speaker 1: prison is like Wetzell's dead. They're carrying him out in 932 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:57,200 Speaker 1: the pine box they probably did, and then he gets 933 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: out and escapes, and it's just I mean, that's pretty bizarre. 934 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,640 Speaker 1: But as far as I can tell, that is like 935 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,960 Speaker 1: a fairly well documented thing that happened. Man the coffin 936 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: prison escape. That's classic. Man. If I'm ever wrongfully imprisoned, 937 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: and if i am, you guys will probably hear about it. 938 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna remember this little stunt. With all the outlaw 939 00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 1: and talk of late on this bargrease, I might need 940 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,040 Speaker 1: to be thinking ahead. I still think Brent Reeves is 941 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:29,440 Speaker 1: after me. But hey, we're all friends here and you 942 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: are the only ones who know about this, So y'all 943 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: be looking for me walking down the side of the road. 944 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 1: Here's Chip with some deep thoughts. What do you make 945 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,600 Speaker 1: of the idea that at the time he was a hero, 946 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,280 Speaker 1: he was a hero of the frontier. But then now 947 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 1: we look back at him and we see that he 948 00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:55,680 Speaker 1: was essentially a serial killer, was killing Native Americans for sport. 949 00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,040 Speaker 1: How do we What do you make of that? Let 950 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: me say this, and it's very difficult for us now 951 00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,320 Speaker 1: in midern times to put ourselves back on the frontier. 952 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,920 Speaker 1: And I make this statement in one of my stories. 953 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: I said, and again I said, if he were alive today, 954 00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,080 Speaker 1: he would be labeled a serial killer. But early pioneers 955 00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,160 Speaker 1: living in the Upper Ohio River Valley and the late 956 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,919 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, he was considered an avenger because they were 957 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,320 Speaker 1: losing family friends to Indians and they didn't know how 958 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,040 Speaker 1: to stop it. The only way they could stop it 959 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,720 Speaker 1: is moved back east. And that's what where they came from. 960 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,000 Speaker 1: When they didn't want to do that. They wanted the 961 00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 1: land that was here. They wanted to live here. And 962 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,920 Speaker 1: so for those families, here's a guy out front that 963 00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,200 Speaker 1: is killing the people that are killing us. So that's 964 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:44,800 Speaker 1: the way they looked at it. And it was a 965 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:49,000 Speaker 1: time period of significant warfare and conflict constant, so it 966 00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:52,600 Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't today to think of all these people 967 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: dying and houses being burned down, and I mean it 968 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: wet sold so many times told stories or there were 969 00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: stories involved of his peers being their their houses being 970 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,240 Speaker 1: burned down, their families being murdered, and I mean think 971 00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: about that today, like if that happened one time in 972 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,240 Speaker 1: my life, would be a big deal. Oh it would. 973 00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,360 Speaker 1: I'd write a book about it. But how traumatizing that 974 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,439 Speaker 1: would be and how that would affect society, create instability, 975 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: I mean like internal personal crisis. You know, here we've 976 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,880 Speaker 1: had our gas prices are you know, five dollars a gallon, 977 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,520 Speaker 1: and people are nervous and getting crazy. Well, what if 978 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,320 Speaker 1: there was a pretty good chance that your house at 979 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,000 Speaker 1: some point in your life was going to be burned 980 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,919 Speaker 1: down and a fair chance that your family might even 981 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 1: be murdered. Like what, who would you then look up to? 982 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,920 Speaker 1: Who would you look to for security? And here's this 983 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,960 Speaker 1: guy that is taken on the threat And so yeah, 984 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,640 Speaker 1: I'm not justifying it. I'm just trying to make sense 985 00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:54,680 Speaker 1: of it. But you're right, if we were back in 986 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,760 Speaker 1: those times, our heroes back then would be a lot 987 00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,560 Speaker 1: different than they are now. Our hero now are sports figures, 988 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, people like that. That wouldn't have been the 989 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,880 Speaker 1: case back then because those people were dealing with life 990 01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,080 Speaker 1: and death every day. I like what you said there, 991 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,040 Speaker 1: that our heroes are sports figures today. Back then they 992 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,360 Speaker 1: would have been the frontiers. We're always looking for heroes, 993 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:21,480 Speaker 1: aren't We's human nature. Here's Steve with his final synopsis 994 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,320 Speaker 1: of Wetzel and the time period he lived in. I 995 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,760 Speaker 1: think I think about with Wetzel is informed by our 996 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:34,919 Speaker 1: understanding now of what happens to veterans, first responders, law 997 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,480 Speaker 1: enforcement individuals who are just subjected to these like really 998 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,760 Speaker 1: traumatic experiences. Were now very versed in this idea of 999 01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:47,040 Speaker 1: of PTSD. Um. I know that my own father, from 1000 01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,600 Speaker 1: his experiences in the war, suffered from PTSD. Right, I 1001 01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:54,000 Speaker 1: think that some sort of future historians, some kind of 1002 01:00:54,040 --> 01:01:00,520 Speaker 1: future like physician slash historian individual. Well, someday look get like, 1003 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:06,000 Speaker 1: how is all of that death and violence to what 1004 01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:10,400 Speaker 1: extent was it scrambling the brain of all those people involved? 1005 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? If you now came 1006 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:18,360 Speaker 1: and said, if you're talking about a guy down the road, Oh, 1007 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:24,440 Speaker 1: he was shot, kidnapped and shot, escaped, watched his father die, 1008 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:29,040 Speaker 1: watched his brother die, lost all this family to all 1009 01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:33,840 Speaker 1: this bloodshed, siblings were kidnapped, and then you learned that 1010 01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,720 Speaker 1: he went on to be a mass murderer, a serial killer. 1011 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,160 Speaker 1: What would be the first thing that would come out 1012 01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:45,480 Speaker 1: of your mouth? Figured, yeah, and and and it's it's 1013 01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,240 Speaker 1: like when you if you grow up watching like westerns, 1014 01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,120 Speaker 1: you know and I know you have and I haven't. 1015 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:56,400 Speaker 1: Warror movies with the heroes are celebrated for their indifference 1016 01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,920 Speaker 1: to it. Right, you shoot the bad guy down and 1017 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,160 Speaker 1: go have a drink, play some cards. But there there 1018 01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,160 Speaker 1: must have just been a lot of I don't like 1019 01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:09,640 Speaker 1: to run around. You know, I'm not one of the 1020 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,560 Speaker 1: people that runs around like attributing everything around me to 1021 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:17,560 Speaker 1: some version of childhood trauma. But this isn't that. This 1022 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:26,480 Speaker 1: is dismembered hog eating tomahawks, bodies, man of relatives and 1023 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,400 Speaker 1: stuff on both sides of this. Let's call the war 1024 01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:40,560 Speaker 1: just mass I mean, ruthless, inhumane atrocities, right, And it's like, 1025 01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:45,280 Speaker 1: to what degree was all that just fueling itself? M Like, 1026 01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,520 Speaker 1: to what degree where all these people or many of 1027 01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,800 Speaker 1: these people just kind of, you know, suffering from these things, 1028 01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:56,240 Speaker 1: Like it's unimaginable to us now, had to have scrambled 1029 01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,080 Speaker 1: their brains out. They were tougher than us. But how 1030 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:02,680 Speaker 1: tough can you be? Man? Humans weren't supposed to live 1031 01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,720 Speaker 1: that way. Well, that's the thing. That's that's the part 1032 01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:12,680 Speaker 1: is I think about all the time. Lewis Wetzel, the 1033 01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:17,560 Speaker 1: Death Wind himself ended up near Natchez, Mississippi, and died 1034 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,720 Speaker 1: at his cousin's house in eighteen o eight at the 1035 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,600 Speaker 1: age of forty five, probably from yellow fever. He was 1036 01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:29,080 Speaker 1: buried in Mississippi, but in nineteen forty two, a hundred 1037 01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:33,520 Speaker 1: and thirty four years after his death, they exhumed his 1038 01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:37,800 Speaker 1: grave and moved his remains back to McCreary Cemetery in 1039 01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:42,840 Speaker 1: Marshall County, West Virginia. That's a bold move. They claimed 1040 01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,200 Speaker 1: his kathleenked hair was still visible and that there was 1041 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:50,160 Speaker 1: a musket lyne beside him in the coffin. This grave 1042 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,320 Speaker 1: movement was likely connected to the author saying Gray re 1043 01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,280 Speaker 1: igniting an interest in the old frontiersman, and then a 1044 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 1: bunch of these other guys right and about him. Man, 1045 01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to start talking about some lighthearted stuff 1046 01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,000 Speaker 1: on the Bear Grease podcast to pull ourselves out of 1047 01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,200 Speaker 1: the dark ditch that we found ourselves in. As a 1048 01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,680 Speaker 1: matter of fact, the next episode it's gonna be a 1049 01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:18,520 Speaker 1: deep dive into the life of Mr Rogers. Or I 1050 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,200 Speaker 1: guess we could just move on and know that we've 1051 01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,160 Speaker 1: all come from a dark and bloody past as full 1052 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,680 Speaker 1: of some wild stuff. The wild nature, physical hardship, and 1053 01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,400 Speaker 1: brutality of the lives of those on the American Frontier 1054 01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: continue to put my life in modern times into perspective. 1055 01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,440 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Bear Grease. I feel 1056 01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,440 Speaker 1: like a giant monkey is off my back now that 1057 01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: Steve has his podcast on the death wind. Hey be 1058 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,280 Speaker 1: sure to check out the meat Eater dot com for 1059 01:04:55,400 --> 01:05:00,120 Speaker 1: all kinds of hunting, camping and outdoor apparel stuff. You 1060 01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 1: could even get a super cool bear, grease or believer 1061 01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 1: hat there. And thanks again for listening and have a 1062 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,920 Speaker 1: great week. M