1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call me Ben. 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: We're joined as always with our superproducer Paul. Mission control decands. 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you are here and that makes 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: this the stuff they don't want you to know. Here 9 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: are the facts. This is a two part episode. You know, 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: we get into a lot of rabbit holes. Sometimes we 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: spelunk a little bit deeper than we had originally reckoned, 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: and this is one of those cases. So before you 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: do anything else, if you have not listened to part 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: one of Cannibals and Conspiracy, what happened to Michael Rockefeller, 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: get thee to that episode and then join back with us, 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: because we have so much more strange stuff to explore. Yes, 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: but what you need to know for this episode Michael Rockefeller, 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: son of Nelson Rockefeller, of the line of Rockefellers from 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: John D. Rockefeller, the standard oil guy. He the Rockefeller Rockefellers. 20 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: So one he went missing in New Guinea after going 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: on a trip on November seventeenth, nineteen sixty one. And 22 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: this whole episode, this whole series is about what happened 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: to him. And here's where this story stops being polite 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: and starts getting real. Actually, here's where it gets crazy. 25 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: So let's look at some of these theories in depth. 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: We've been talking about them. Let's laundry list them out 27 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: and row through them. Drowning Okay, it makes sense right 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: that miles long swim. That's tough, even if you have 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: sim improvised flotation. We talked about that people don't want 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: to necessarily hear stories about mundane death. They want something juicier, 31 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: dare we say more exotic. Well, it's also you know, 32 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: there was almost a need to find someone to blame, 33 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, I mean people like the Rockefellers. Too many 34 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: in the United States were like superheroes, and they didn't 35 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: want to think that they were this vulnerable. And honestly, 36 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: as as you know, admirable, I guess, as as as 37 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: Michael's path was, it's a little embarrassing the idea of like, 38 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, you died of drowning, you know, because you're 39 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: boat flipped over it's it's you know what I mean, 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: it's it doesn't have the same headline grabbing cache and 41 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: also divisiveness as something like was devoured by cannibals, these heathens, 42 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, things like that. Yeah, and that, 43 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: by the way, was a conjecture of a pretty heavy conjecture, 44 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: the possibility that he was in fact killed by local 45 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: members of one of the communities that he made it 46 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: to shore, he got offshore, and some he was not 47 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: happy to find him, uh, you know, in their in 48 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: their area. There's a journalist named Milton Macklin who just 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: a few years after this whole thing went down, I 50 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: think eight years after, he traveled out to the area 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: because he had heard some rumors that he wanted to investigate. 52 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: And he went on the same kind of tricks that 53 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: Michael and that documentary crew were going on, that Michael 54 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: and Renee were going on. He did the whole retracing 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: the steps thing, tried to go to several different places 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: where Michael may have ended up to look for almost 57 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: archaeological evidence that Michael had landed in a certain area. Yeah, 58 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: he did, and he was doing his level best. Also, Yeah, 59 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: like I don't think he came in. There was something performative, 60 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: like a Heraldo rivera what's in the safe vibe, But 61 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: he did want to see whether there was any sand 62 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: to the various rumors and all the scuttle butt that 63 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: have been making the rounds. He also had been hearing 64 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: there was something that the public loved because it was 65 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: quite salacious, the idea that Rockefeller had kind of faked 66 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: his death and decided to start life anew, living with 67 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: one of these communities or in a way, living above them. Again. 68 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: The Heart of Darkness reference was brought up literally, like 69 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: was specifically brought up, and they you know, they would 70 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: use the phrase, they would use phrases like he's living 71 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: like a white god out out there in the wild. 72 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: Was that book out that was? That was a yeah, okay, 73 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: Heart of Darkness came out in eighteen ninety nine. Wow, 74 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: I did not realize it was that old. I guess 75 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: because Apocalypse now has modernized take all that story. Oh yeah, 76 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: yeah for sure. And people are there's a weird fascination 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: right with a curtsy and figure or so. It makes 78 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: sense from a focalore perspective, But Macklin. Macklin doesn't find 79 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: this persuasive gets there, he's on the ground and he's saying, 80 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: I don't I'm not finding evidence about this, but I 81 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: am finding what he says, his circumstantial evidence. Then Michael 82 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: Rockefeller may have survived to the shore and been murdered. Yeah, 83 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: And as we know, circumstantial evidence doesn't hold up in court. 84 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: So this is the guy taking a bit of a leap. 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: But what happened, Like, what's his theory? Yeah? Well, I mean, 86 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: like we mentioned this, this headhunting stuff and cannibalism. Again, 87 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't just like I don't know that they would 88 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: have been just seeking out people to sacrifice. It was 89 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: part of a war ritual, like you were saying, Matt, 90 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: it was like a cycle of kind of revenge against 91 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: other tribes. Being that Rockefeller does not appear to be 92 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: part of any tribe and then, you know, does not 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: look that way. I do wonder why they might have 94 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: tard geted him for something like this, But let's let's 95 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: let's go on and see, Well what if the revenge 96 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: was not against another tribe but against the colonial powers. 97 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: The Dutch certainly looks like them. That's for all intents 98 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: and purposes, that's right. I didn't think about that, because 99 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: these folks kind of live on the fringes of this colonialization. 100 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem like at the time they were 101 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: being heavily persecuted, but there was an awareness of this 102 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: invading force threatening their way of life. Right. Yes, So 103 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: here's the logic. If Rockefeller made it to shore, if 104 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: the jerry Kens kept him afloat emboyed enough to get 105 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: there and still be alive, he would definitely be exhausted. 106 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: It wouldn't be his best day, you know, and he 107 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: would have likely arrived in the area of the oats 108 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: Genep village, which we are mispronouncing, not of speakers, it's 109 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: spelled ots j a n ep solid phonetics pronunciation. Man, 110 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: the best we can do. You know, who needs drugs? 111 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: We can get hooked on phonics. Right. And in this 112 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: whatever they got to me, the propaganda got to me anyway, 113 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: in this community at the time, to the point you 114 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: were making Matt that you were making old like this 115 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: is a part of a larger cyclical thing, retribution and 116 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: the retribution for the retribution unto the first the first 117 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: people and down to the end of history. Right, And 118 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: so this fits in with Macklin's understanding or his narrative, 119 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: because he says, you know, it wasn't too long ago. 120 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, a Dutch colonial patrol killed several 121 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: leaders in this village, and so therefore, he says, it's 122 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: possible that Rockefeller was murdered as a form of retribution. 123 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: And I don't know about I don't know about anybody else. 124 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: But the first time I heard about this story many 125 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: younger days, I heard it presented as a fact, like 126 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: you would read things that said, Michael Rockefeller got into 127 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: this part of the world and they killed him and 128 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: they ate him. And it was presented no questions, no 129 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 1: real specifics of what happened past maybe the year past 130 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one had when you heard about this story, 131 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: how did you hear it presented? This spens relatively new 132 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, I think I know it as 133 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: a trope, kind of like I said, with the card 134 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: of the Looney Tunes and all of that, But the 135 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: specifics of the story are pretty new to me. Matt. Yeah, 136 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: I can't tell you where I heard about it, guys. 137 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was in Britannica somewhere where 138 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: I read about this as just a blurb if it 139 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: was one of these time life books that had it 140 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: as a cautionary tale kind of thing or a mystery. 141 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: But I do remember it being stated basically, this guy 142 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: went there, he was fascinated with this stuff, but he 143 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: was killed and he was eaten, and that they was 144 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: just like, that's what it was, So be careful of cannibals, right, 145 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: And again Machlin doesn't come back with proof of this, 146 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: but is saying, this is what I heard. And there's 147 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: another there are several sources proposing similar things. Is a 148 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: guy named Paul Tooey who wrote a book called Rocky 149 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: Goes West, and he says there was an entirely different, 150 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: distinct search. He says, the Rockefeller family hired a private investigator. Well, 151 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: and that's what I was asking about earlier, you know, 152 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: with all of this press conference stuff that seemed like 153 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: a lot of just bluster. Why didn't they go further? 154 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: And I know there were search parties and stuff, but 155 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: you'd think you'd find somebody who was like an expert, 156 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, who could infiltrate this part of the world. 157 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: And so perhaps that did happen according to this story anyway, 158 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: And perhaps the family did get some evidence that their 159 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: son was murdered. This private investigator, according to Rocky Goes West, 160 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: came back to New York with some skulls that were 161 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: supposedly from white men who had been murdered by the tribe. Yeah, 162 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: and if you know, well, maybe maybe somebody out there 163 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: has heard anything further on this, But to date right now, 164 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: I've not seen it. I don't know if you guys 165 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: have seen any official response from the Rockefellers about this, Like, 166 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: did this actually happen? Is this real? That's pr man, 167 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, why would they It's it's not in their 168 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: best interest to get embroiled in any of these kind 169 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: of discussions, you know, Like you said, Ben, families like 170 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: this value privacy overall, you know. Yeah, and imagine imagine 171 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: the waves of unwanted a mention that would come through 172 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: if you if you said something that was taken out 173 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: of context, you know what I mean. Then the next 174 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: headline is insert Rockefeller family member here says something terrible 175 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: about dead relative. Well, they're business people, you know, that's 176 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: a very damage control. I mean, you do not why 177 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: comment when you don't have to, unless maybe the grieving 178 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: mother just had just felt compelled to do so, you 179 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean, or father, but they would probably 180 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: be encouraged or counseled to not well. And just to 181 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: put the timeline out there, it's nineteen sixty nine when 182 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: Macklin goes and does his exploration, right. Nelson Rockefeller, Michael's dad, 183 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: becomes vice president in nineteen seventy four and is in 184 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: office till nineteen seventy seven. So there's that period between 185 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: governor and vice president, you know when this UF is 186 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: going down. Well, wait, it's is it nineteen sixty one 187 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: when Michael goes missing? Yes, okay, so there's quite a 188 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: bit that Nelson Rockefeller has to lose by bringing this 189 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: back up, because as he's getting further and further into 190 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: politics and deeper into the executive branch. You know, that's 191 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you just don't want, you 192 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: don't want to talk about. If it's just your son, well, 193 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is messed up, you guys. But if 194 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: it's just your son that went missing and potent and 195 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: probably died, that is a that is a story that 196 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: can help to win the hearts and minds of anybody 197 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: who might be a voter, right because it's so tragic, 198 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: so horrifying to think about it may provide in that 199 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: voter sympathy for a candidate, and it's horrible to think 200 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: about it in that cold manner. But it's true. Sure, 201 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: But why then the refusal to to to play that 202 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: card because of the cultural angle or because of the 203 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, I'm wondering. I don't know, guys. I would 204 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: speculate that it has something to do with being embroiled 205 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: in international politics with the Dutch government, with right, some 206 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: of that stuff. I would imagine, you know, sending a 207 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: PI over there to discover, you know, the skull of 208 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: your child and then bring it home and then never 209 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: mention it might be a little weird, you know. Yeah. 210 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: History the History Channel, which is not a perfect source, 211 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: also claimed that the or they appeared to support some 212 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: of two He's claims. They also claimed that the Rockefellers 213 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: had a reward out for confirmation of what happened to 214 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: their son, to the tune of like two hundred thousand 215 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: dollars US or something, and that they paid the PI 216 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: when he returned to New York. But again, grains of salt, 217 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,359 Speaker 1: there's still additional sources. There's a third source the documentary 218 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: keep the River to your right, And in this dinnery 219 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: there's an artist, an anthropologist named an AIDS activist as 220 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: well named Tobias Sneebomb, and Schneebomb says, Sneebomb has lived 221 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: in this area. It's not just some guy who was 222 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: working in la and got pulled in to look like 223 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: he had expertise. This this guy's a real deal. He 224 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: was living there and he said, you know, I've spoken 225 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: with members of this village and they told me that 226 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: they found this guy, this kid, this twenty year old 227 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: Rockefeller on the riverside, and they eventually consumed him. Jessie, 228 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: my something you'd share with the outsider journalist type fella. Yeah, 229 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: we saw him, Yeah, we ate him. Next question. We're 230 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: gonna pause here for a word from our sponsors, and 231 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: we'll return and we're back. Let's jump right back into 232 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: the story of what happened to Michael Rockefeller. When we 233 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: talk about these narratives, we see that multiple people have 234 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: brought forward some version of that story that they say 235 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: they heard while they were in countries. So Carl Hoffman, 236 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, he writes a book called Savage Harvest, 237 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: a tale of cannibals, colonialism, and Michael Rockefeller's tragic quest 238 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: for primitive art. Right. Yeah, And Hoffman researches the disappearance extensively, 239 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: and part of his research involves multiple visits to villages 240 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: and communities in the area, and he says that he 241 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: keeps hearing various iterations of the same story people are 242 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: telling him. Look, Michael Rockefeller did make it to shore 243 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: men from this village, had a series of internal arguments, 244 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: and then as a result of their conversations, they killed him. 245 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: That makes a bit more sense than me. They couldn't 246 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: quite agree on what to do with them, and there 247 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: became it became no pun intended bone of contention, and 248 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: then it led to execution. Yeah, And it all stems 249 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: back to that little piece we mentioned earlier, where there 250 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: were the colonial powers that came through and killed some 251 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: members of that group, and then this was in some 252 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: way retaliation for that, Right. And Hoffman goes a step 253 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: further along that cycle and says that after Rockefeller's murder 254 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: or death, a cholera epidemic went through the area and 255 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: community members believed that this was in turn retribution for 256 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: killing Rockefeller, and then Hoffman also does something fascinating. Hoffman 257 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: uncovers the correspondence. So that priest we mentioned earlier, Cornelius 258 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: van Kessel, Yeah, this is the This is the missionary 259 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: guy who actually goes through and knows a lot of 260 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: the people, a lot of the osmad people. And this 261 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: guy asserts that warriors from that oxygenep village where Michael 262 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: you know, would have probably come on shore had he 263 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: made it to shore, had actually killed and devoured Rockefeller. 264 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: So it's this one guy who knew things, who can 265 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: actually go around and actually talk to people at the 266 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: time when Michael Rockefeller's being searched for, has written out 267 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: that this is the story. So we got a couple 268 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: of accounts then that seem relatively reliable. Yeah, yeah, well 269 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: because okay, so just imagine it this way. Van Kessel's 270 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: part of the Catholic Church. Am I incorrect in that? 271 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: I believe that is correct. He's a part of the 272 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. He has there are other ministers who are 273 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: kind of invented within some of these tribes who also 274 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: take some notes, right and send send information back to 275 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church that's they're in, you know, in country 276 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: and then sends it back to the larger Catholic church 277 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: also there communicating with the Dutch government. That's at least 278 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: according to the author here Karl Hoffman, who was speaking 279 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: in a BBC little one of those three minute blurb 280 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: videos right in promotion for a book, and he's talking 281 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: about how there were at least two pieces of correspondence 282 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: from ministers that stated pretty much unequivocally that Michael was 283 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: killed and eaton by this tribe. Yeah, yeah, this seems 284 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: like hard confirmation, right, And then Hoffman goes further and says, 285 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: some Dutch colonial officials obtained not just the skull, but 286 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: other bones that they thought belonged to Michael Rockefeller, and 287 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: these were you know, the next step would be to 288 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: test these in some way, but they disappeared. The remains 289 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: were gone before there was any kind of test or investigation, 290 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: which means there was possibly a cover up of foot 291 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: or perhaps just roast incompetence, but possibly a cover up 292 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: of foot. And the next what if the PI got 293 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: it right, and what if the Rockefellers said, this is 294 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: the personal closure we need and we don't need to 295 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: go public, we don't need to explain ourselves. Possible again, 296 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: but no proof. And there's another piece here which you 297 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: alluded to earlier, Matt, which is if there were a 298 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: motivation on the Dutch side to cover this up, what 299 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: would it be. Hoffman has an argument, and his argument 300 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: is essentially that as the Netherlands was leaving the area 301 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: they wanted, it was very important to them to make 302 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: it seem as though they left it better, it like 303 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: in a better state, as though their improved their presence 304 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: had improved it somehow. Pr once again, Yeah, for sure, 305 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: the ide again because this idea of civilizing people, you know, 306 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: who are seen as others, like you said, Ben, that 307 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: was sort of you know, their goal or at the 308 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: very least the their pr goal to make it seem 309 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: like that was the case. Yeah. And having one, you know, 310 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: the child of one of the most prominent human beings 311 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: on the planet killed and potentially eaten, it's probably not 312 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: a good look for them on your watch. Right. And 313 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: then also if you what do you do how do 314 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: you apply the legal system there? Right? And would a 315 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: like let's say it goes to European style court structure 316 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: and then people are found guilty of murder and there 317 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: sentenced to death. How is that not seen as something 318 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: that that just is another part of this cycle, right, 319 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: that triggers another reprisal, and on and on and on. 320 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: So how would they and then also how would they 321 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: navigate the sensitivities of a very powerful family in the 322 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: United States? And Hoffman again does a lot of digging here. 323 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: And there's a spot where Hoffman is talking or a 324 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: moment I should say, we're Hoffman's talking to a friend 325 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: of the family, a close friend of Mary Rockefeller, the twin, 326 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: and this person tells Hoffman the family refuses to believe 327 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: any version of the story beyond Michael's drowning. Yeah, and that's, 328 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, may well be a pr line of its 329 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: own if we are to believe the skull story. Yeah, okay, 330 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: hold up, let's take a quick break right here in 331 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: the story and hear a word from our sponsors, and 332 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: then we'll be right back. Okay, guys, what's next. Don't 333 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: want to spoil the ending of Hoffman's book. If you're 334 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: interested in this story, it's very much worth your time 335 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: to pick up a copy. But there's there's this New 336 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 1: York Times review about it, which you can read online 337 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: as well. We got a quote here that doesn't entirely 338 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: spoil Hoffman's experience, but I think it will at least 339 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: give the vibe. Yeah, towards the end of the book 340 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: book this is yet from the from the New York 341 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: Times review. Towards the end of the book, he ventures 342 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: up the Owata River, hoping to live within the community 343 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: for a month and somehow elicit a confession. But Hoffman 344 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: gets the cold shoulder and senses that the villagers are 345 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: guarding a terrible secret. As he makes clear in this 346 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: gripping book, keeping the real story buried may have been 347 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: the safest choice for everyone involved. Yeah, the italics are 348 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: ours there, which you could hear it ignoles beautiful rendition 349 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: of this, but that's still pretty powerful. And there's one 350 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: quotation in particular that anything stands out to Hoffman, who 351 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: will stand out to readers of the book. That's still 352 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: not the last theory, right, the one some of us 353 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: have been waiting for. What if? What if he didn't drown, 354 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: or if he didn't get murderized, what if he joined 355 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: a community in the area. And that's something that Leonard 356 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: Nimoy talks about on in search of do we have 357 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: the sound cue for that? We can't Linard de Boy 358 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: talks about this and yeah, they don't have proof. But 359 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: then there's another piece of video footage that comes from 360 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: a National Geographic photographer named Malcolm Kirk filmed this in 361 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: the area in nineteen seventy one. It is epic. It's 362 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: like hundreds of hundreds of people from these communities and 363 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: they're rowing as groups on their boats and they've got 364 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: they've got weapons, they're shootings and ceremonial arrows and stuff, 365 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: and it's um, I'm not sure of a better word 366 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: than epic. It's a lot of people. It's it's a serious, 367 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: serious display of power from these communities. And if you 368 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: look at the footage just for a second, for some folks, 369 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: this this footage alone is like a smoking gun that 370 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: proves Rockefeller is alive. I don't know. So we're playing 371 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: this footage. Could we describe it for a fellow conspiracy realist. Absolutely, 372 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: let's do this. We are seeing a long line of 373 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: what looks like boats or like small boats, you know, 374 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: where there are people standing up growing the boats as 375 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: they're standing. Okay, so they're zooming in now and it's 376 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: a still Oh my goodness, is that a white dude 377 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: on the boat. It looks like a Caucasian man with 378 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: something on his head. He's got a beard. It looks 379 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: a lot like Michael Rockefeller. It's only a little bit 380 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: of footage, but whoa he like joined Maybe he joined 381 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: them and to get away. The implication, that's the implication, 382 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: that's the theory. How much further could you go with that? 383 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: Not wanting to be you know that silver spoon kind 384 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: of you know person. Yeah, that's wild and it makes 385 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: a lot of sense if if he could even convince 386 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: the people to allow him to be part of it. 387 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: You know, could you imagine what it would take. It's 388 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: like some dances with wolves right there? Man, I mean, 389 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: but that's if the footage is true. But I love 390 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: this as a story. Elo. It's incredible. The footage is real. 391 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: It's whether or not it's good that the figure is 392 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: Michael Rockefeller right right. It's not a deep fake. But 393 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: it could be a person with albinism. Maybe. Yeah, they're oh, 394 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: that's but the beard thing that they say, like that 395 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: they don't wear beards. I mean it, it's it's fascinating 396 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: to me. And I'm look, if I was going to 397 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: go down that rabbit hole, I would say, what had 398 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: Michael Rockefeller at the age of twenty experienced living at 399 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: that level of privilege, living within that family, right, Like, 400 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: what had he maybe experienced it made him want to 401 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: escape it? I don't Yeah, And he was only twenty 402 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: three at the time, right, and he was How much 403 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: later was his footage taken? This footage was taken in 404 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, so it would have been ten years okay, 405 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: ten years, so it would have been thirty three. Yeah, 406 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: And you know this is a this that checks out 407 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: that clocks for the look of this fellow. He looks 408 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: to be as early to mid thirties. And living like 409 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: that would make a person's body change, you know, I 410 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: mean weathered, you know what I mean, just living out 411 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 1: in the elements like that. I mean, what if I'm chilled? 412 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: What if? What really happened, guys is the Rockefellers sent 413 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: that PI down there, and the PI found Michael and 414 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: tried to convince Michael to come back, and he just 415 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: said no. And his village, you know, the people in 416 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: his village were like, you're not taking this guy. Get 417 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: out of here. Here's some scover, come back, this is 418 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: our dude. Yeah, here's some skulls. You can take these. 419 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: Here's a cover story dead or that could have been 420 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: from Michael himself, you know, I mean he's like this 421 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: is this is like talk about faking your own death. 422 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: I mean, how else the plot would have to be 423 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: so elaborate for a person of that stature to be 424 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: able to fake their own death. And and you know 425 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: what I mean, that's to commit that pseudo side. That's tough. 426 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: But I have this vision, you know, I think a 427 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: lot of the Curtsy and the Apocalypse now is so cool, 428 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of the Curtsy and heard 429 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: of darkness stuff has a lot of problems that stuff. 430 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: But that being said, I can't get it out of 431 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: my head, this moment of like the guy looking up 432 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: from the darkness behind a tree and going there is 433 00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: no Michael. But remember Michael had this fascination with the 434 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: tribe and in particular with the wood carving right people, 435 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: and like he he was so personally fascinated with it. 436 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: If he did want to become a part of that group, 437 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: what if he did did just want to be looked 438 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: I am not in any way above you. I want 439 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: to be with you at that level makes more sense. 440 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: I want to, you know, join in and what do 441 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: I need to do? Canno in the rowers, in the 442 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: ranks of the rowers. He's not being carried on a 443 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: freaking Palin Quinn or whatever the hell those things, you know, 444 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean, he's just among them and and and contributing 445 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: to this team rowing effort. That's not what a white 446 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: god would do, you know, right? And this this goes 447 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: like so this is one of the fascinating sticking points 448 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: of this story. Again, we who ask you to check 449 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: out the footage. It is one person definitely looks different 450 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: from the rest, that's fair to say. But who is 451 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: that person? And why does there why their appearance? You know, 452 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: those are questions that have yet to be answered. There 453 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: was no follow up interview with this person. Nobody, Nobody 454 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: stopped the boat and said, okay, everybody names and tell 455 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 1: me to tell us what you're about. What's your thing? Was? 456 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: Were any one of you once upon a time from 457 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: New York? You know what I mean? None of that. 458 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: So this is this one moment, this one bright moment. 459 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: If Michael Rockefeller was alive today in twenty twenty three, 460 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: he would be eighty five years old, and like Henry 461 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: Kissinger his birthdays in May. I don't know why I 462 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: said that, like that was some big bookend. It's not 463 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: just I don't want to I don't want to leave 464 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: this yet, you guys, I'm still trying to game it 465 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: out because you imagine, imagine you're Nelson Rockefeller. It's nineteen 466 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: seventy one. Uh, you know you are a political figure. Now, 467 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: Let's say you wanted to get your son back, despite 468 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: your son's wishes, so you kidnap him back. What you 469 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: what you would have to send a team in to 470 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: somehow kidnap him, like get to that area, find him, 471 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: get him, take him out of that area, and get 472 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: him on a plane and send him home. Imagine what 473 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: that scenario could trigger. That would be an international incident, 474 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: right because even if they were mercenaries, they were probably 475 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: they're probably x you know, US military mercenaries, or you 476 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: would hire I don't know, mercenaries within country, mercenaries from 477 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: another neighboring country, or if they wanted to be really clever, 478 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: hire members of a rival tribe to make it seem 479 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: like a legitimate you know, um, what's the word revenge 480 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: kidnapping or revenge killing or whatever. There's ways you could 481 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: do it. It would just I imagine that you you 482 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: would do the calculus of that move and say, well 483 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: I can't, like we can't, no doubt. You just gotta 484 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: let him be Yeah, yeah, there there. That's the thing 485 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: we're all we're imagining. And that's why this became, yeah, 486 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: a two part episode, folks, because we wanted to spend 487 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: the time on this. Uh. We didn't want to just 488 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: blaze through the facts. There's so many threads to pull here, 489 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: There's so many rabbit holes to go down, and we 490 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: want to know your thoughts. What happened to Michael Rockefeller? 491 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: Do you know? Can you tell us? Are you are 492 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: you texting each other? Like what do you think? Which 493 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: of the theories that that we've explored today do you 494 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: think are most likely? And why is there some other 495 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: intervening variable or piece of the story that needs to 496 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: be addressed in further detail? Let us know? And if 497 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: it's not him, who's that white dude on the boat? 498 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: I mean that in and of itself, that is just 499 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, that is fascinating because that's that guy's got 500 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: to have a story. You think it's definitely a white dude. 501 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: I do with the way the beard looks, and I 502 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: mean just the way it's so stand out, and even 503 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: the build is different, the build of the person's body 504 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: is different. So why we saved the video for the end? Right, folks, 505 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: do please watch this. We're very conscious this an audio podcast, 506 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: but yeah, watch the video, right, And le Nol was saying, 507 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: tell us, yeah, and get ahold of Savage Harvest if 508 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: you can, because there's a lot of great information in there. Yeah, 509 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: it's a great read. And so you might be saying, well, 510 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: how do I contact you? I think I've got some 511 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: ideas and I want to get to I want to 512 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: get to you before you all disappear. Well, fortunately, right 513 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,239 Speaker 1: now it's very easy, and we love to hear from you. 514 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: Wherever you are in this big, big world of ours, 515 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: let us hear from you. You can reach us on yeah, 516 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: your social media flavor of choice. We are conspiracy stuff 517 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook, where we have our Facebook group. 518 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Join your fellow conspiracy realists 519 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: there for all kinds of riveting chat around this particular episode. 520 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: Perhaps we are conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and TikTok, 521 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: which we're doing some stuff on there. We're making moves 522 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: for the zennials. Check out our TikTok give us a 523 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: call too. You can do that one eight three three 524 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: std wy t K When you call in, give yourself 525 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: a cool nickname. We don't care what it is. You've 526 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: got three minutes. Say whatever you'd like. 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