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Speaker 3: I'm David Ego from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

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Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the

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Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast.

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Speaker 5: As the US.

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Speaker 6: Elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more

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Speaker 6: divided than ever.

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Speaker 7: But in a new hopeful season of.

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Speaker 1: My podcast, I'll Share with the Science Really shows that

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Speaker 1: was surprisingly more united than most people think.

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Speaker 8: We all know something is wrong in our culture and

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Speaker 8: our politics and that we need to do better, and

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Speaker 8: that we can.

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Speaker 6: Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

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Speaker 6: listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 7: Hey, Daniel, what are we doing today for the opening

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Speaker 7: of the podcast?

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Speaker 1: You know, actually I thought maybe we would invert the

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Speaker 1: usual process.

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Speaker 7: We have a usual process.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, first we have an idea and then we record it.

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Speaker 7: So you want to flip it today. So what does

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Speaker 7: that mean? We're gonna start recording and then hope we

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Speaker 7: get an idea. Isn't that like putting costs after effect?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, just a little causality inversion to start

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Speaker 1: your day. What could go wrong?

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Speaker 7: It's never a good sign when a physicist says, what

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Speaker 7: could go wrong?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, we haven't destroyed the universe yet, but.

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Speaker 7: What if we blow up the universe with this inverted opening?

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Speaker 1: Oh, and that gives me an idea for a perfect opening.

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Speaker 7: Hopefully people laugh before they listen to that.

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Speaker 5: Hi.

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Speaker 7: I'm Jorgem, cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 9: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a physics professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I usually don't know what I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say before I say it.

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Speaker 7: Isn't that part of the job description for a professor

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Speaker 7: not knowing what you're talking.

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Speaker 1: About exactly, but making it sound like you do.

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Speaker 7: And that's where the PhD comes from.

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Speaker 1: I guess years of training.

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Speaker 7: Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 7: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we're not afraid to admit what we don't

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Speaker 1: know about the universe. Because we love to embrace that ignorance.

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Speaker 1: We dive deep into everything that we don't understand about

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Speaker 1: the universe, the very nature of space and time, the

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Speaker 1: context of the reality around us, all of the squishy

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Speaker 1: and beautiful and incredible matter that fills it and wiggles

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Speaker 1: around inside of it. We are desperate to understand the

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Speaker 1: deep nature of the universe, and we are here to

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Speaker 1: explore it and explain it to you.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, because there is a lot we don't know about

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Speaker 7: the universe. And I'm not just talking about myself a cartoonist,

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Speaker 7: but there's a lot that even physicists don't know about,

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Speaker 7: not just things hidden inside of black holes or neutron

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Speaker 7: stars or inside of particles. There is some very fundamental

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Speaker 7: questions we still have about this wild and wacky universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Like where did I put my phone? And

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Speaker 1: how come I can never find an even number of

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Speaker 1: socks At the same time.

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Speaker 7: I think maybe you put the phone in your socks.

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Speaker 7: That would solve to mystery.

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Speaker 1: If I could just have like digital socks, I could

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Speaker 1: have them on my phone. That would be so much

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Speaker 1: more convenient.

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Speaker 7: Well, I know you like to wear sandals, so I'm

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Speaker 7: pretty sure you already have virtual socks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. That's why I could just delete all the

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Speaker 1: socks and one fell through. But it's not really just

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Speaker 1: socks that we are curious about. We really do want

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Speaker 1: to understand the deep nature of reality around us. What

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Speaker 1: is this universe? How did it come to be, why

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Speaker 1: is it this way and not another way? And most importantly,

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Speaker 1: are there things about it that we're getting basically wrong?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, because you know, I feel like you can ask

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Speaker 7: questions about the universe and the stuff in the universe,

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Speaker 7: you know, like black holes and stars and particles, but

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Speaker 7: you can also kind of ask deep, kind of philosophical

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Speaker 7: questions about it, you know, it's sort of like about

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Speaker 7: the nature of it or what can break the universe even.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because we know that in human history we've made

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Speaker 1: a lot of basic mistakes about the way we thought

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Speaker 1: the universe worked, because we've only seen it work in

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Speaker 1: one particular way or in one set of circumstances, and

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Speaker 1: we imagined that must be true forever, it must be

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Speaker 1: deep truth about the universe, and it turns out not

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Speaker 1: so much, which means that what lies ahead of us

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Speaker 1: is more discoveries that basic assumptions about the nature of

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Speaker 1: the universe are probably wrong, and it might just be

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Speaker 1: that we need to hammer at these things forever or

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Speaker 1: wait till the aliens arrive and give us some other

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Speaker 1: context for looking at the nature of the universe.

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Speaker 7: But that's cheating, Daniel. Are they also going to tell

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Speaker 7: you where your socks are? Are you going to be

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Speaker 7: that irresponsible?

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Speaker 1: They're going to email us socks, so it's going to

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Speaker 1: be nice digital socks. That's not cheating at all. I

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Speaker 1: think the first galactic physics conference will be, you know,

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Speaker 1: a great melding of mind. And if you think that's cheating,

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Speaker 1: then you know physics shouldn't work together at all. We

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Speaker 1: should all be trying to figure out the universe on

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Speaker 1: our own.

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Speaker 7: Well, do you think it'd be the two way conference

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Speaker 7: with us and the aliens? Do you think we have

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Speaker 7: anything to teach them?

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Speaker 1: Are we joking or we're being serious?

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Speaker 7: I don't know. I mean, if they can travel through

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Speaker 7: the stars and you know, invent warp drives, do you

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Speaker 7: think we have anything to teach them or do you

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Speaker 7: think we know something they don't?

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Speaker 1: At this point, I think it's very likely that everything

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Speaker 1: we've learned in our human sciences is probably corrupted by

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Speaker 1: human bias and totally useless to aliens, not just because

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Speaker 1: we haven't made advances far enough, but probably just the

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Speaker 1: questions we ask and the nature of the way we

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Speaker 1: answer them is probably deeply inherently human in ways we

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Speaker 1: can't even imagine. You know, we don't even really know

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Speaker 1: where the edge of the box is. We just know

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Speaker 1: that we're in this sort of like human constructed box

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Speaker 1: about ways to think about the universe. And it isn't

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Speaker 1: until the aliens come that will even figure out like

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Speaker 1: where the edge of that box is.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I guess because we've been trying to figure everything

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Speaker 7: out with the human brain. And you know what, if

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Speaker 7: we have a totally different brain, maybe you get to

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Speaker 7: see things in a very different.

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Speaker 1: Way, yeah, or different sensory organs. Right, what if you

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Speaker 1: can see X rays, or you can smell photons, or

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Speaker 1: you can taste electrons or something like that, Right, you

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Speaker 1: might have figured out totally different ways to think about

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Speaker 1: the universe in a completely different order. Maybe quantum mechanics

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Speaker 1: is intuitive to them because you know, they've seen this

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Speaker 1: stuff happening in front of them every single day. Or

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Speaker 1: maybe they can see neutrinos and so the universe is

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Speaker 1: like totally opaque and very weird to them. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be a challenge to map from human brains to

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Speaker 1: alien brains. Sometimes it's hard to even map from human

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Speaker 1: brain to human brain.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So I think what you're saying is that sometimes

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Speaker 7: there are revolutions in human thought where we thought that

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Speaker 7: the universe worked one way and then it turns out

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Speaker 7: it worked another way, right, Like maybe quantum physics is

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Speaker 7: one of those big revolutions, or relativity exactly.

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Speaker 1: Those two are the best examples of moments when we

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Speaker 1: realize that fundamentally the universe is very different from the

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Speaker 1: way we imagined. And I think we put those on

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Speaker 1: the scale of other kinds of realizations, like discovering that

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Speaker 1: the Earth is not the center of the Solar System

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Speaker 1: or even the cosmos, or discovering that our galaxy is

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Speaker 1: one of trillions of galaxies instead of the entire cosmos.

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Speaker 1: You know, these kinds of things help us understand not

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Speaker 1: just the nature of the universe around us, but our

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Speaker 1: place in it and the context of our very existence.

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Speaker 1: So these are pretty deep potential revolutions in our understanding

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Speaker 1: of the nature of the universe.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, And do you think that has made physics is

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Speaker 7: a little bit paranoid almost in a way like now

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Speaker 7: you doubt everything, like even the basics, you know, logic

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Speaker 7: of the universe. Right.

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Speaker 1: No, it makes us excited because it means that around

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Speaker 1: every corner is a potential explosion of ideas. You could

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Speaker 1: tug on any random thread and pull the whole thing apart.

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Speaker 1: Paranoid makes it sound like we're afraid to pull the

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Speaker 1: whole thing apart. We are desperate to pull it apart

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Speaker 1: because it will reveal something else, something new that we

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Speaker 1: can chew on, where we can make new progress and

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Speaker 1: ask new questions. That's a dream come true.

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Speaker 7: I think being afraid of explosions at every corner is

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Speaker 7: sort of the definition of me of being paranoid. What

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Speaker 7: you're saying, you're paranoid in a good way. You're like

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Speaker 7: a good paranoid.

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Speaker 1: A good kind of paranoid is somehow you walked me

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Speaker 1: into that corner. But yes, I am now admitting I'm

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Speaker 1: a good kind of paranoid.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, you can ask pretty deep questions about the universe.

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Speaker 7: And so today we're asking a pretty challenging question. I

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Speaker 7: mean in the sense that it challenges something very deep

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Speaker 7: and sort of I don't know, logical and basic about

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Speaker 7: the universe that you know, maybe a lot of people

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Speaker 7: don't even think you can even ask.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It's something that's so fundamental to the universe

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Speaker 1: that even is incorporated in how we explain the universe itself.

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Speaker 1: It's something inherent, I think in the way humans think

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Speaker 1: and the way we tell stories and think about what

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Speaker 1: makes sense and what doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: So today own the program, we'll be asking the question

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Speaker 7: does the universe need cause and effect? WHOA Daniel? This

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Speaker 7: kind of blew my mind. I mean, how can you

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Speaker 7: question cause and effect and causality in the universe?

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Speaker 1: Are you saying there's some effects to questions and causes?

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Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah. The effect of asking this question is it's

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Speaker 7: got to be really confused.

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Speaker 9: I know.

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Speaker 1: I think it's so fundamental to the way we think.

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Speaker 1: You know, the way we explain things to ourselves is

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Speaker 1: that we tell stories, and stories go like A happened,

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Speaker 1: and then B happened, and then C happened. That's the

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Speaker 1: way we talk, that's the way we think, that's the

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Speaker 1: way we organize our minds, and so it's pretty hard

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Speaker 1: to imagine that you could have a universe without cause

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Speaker 1: and effect. On the other hand, just because it's part

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Speaker 1: of our minds doesn't mean it has to be part

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Speaker 1: of the universe, right. The whole goal of physics is

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Speaker 1: to break out of that box and understand something universal

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Speaker 1: instead of something human.

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Speaker 7: Now, Daniel, is this related to like the idea of

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Speaker 7: the era of time or is this sort of like

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Speaker 7: a basic kind of thing about the universe where like

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Speaker 7: things can happen without being connected to other things. Do

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Speaker 7: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely it's connected to the question of time because

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Speaker 1: cause and effect orders things. And we'll talk about this

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Speaker 1: in more detailed later. You know, there's this concept of

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Speaker 1: like a light cone, which organizes the order of events

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Speaker 1: things have to happen in the universe. But that's only

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Speaker 1: true if you have causality. If things have to happen

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Speaker 1: in a certain order, things don't have to happen in

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Speaker 1: a certain order, that whole picture might go out the window. Whoa.

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Speaker 7: And that's you know, totally opposite from our everyday experience, right,

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Speaker 7: Like our everyday experience is that effects do follow causes.

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Speaker 1: Right absolutely. You know, if your friends don't like arrive

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Speaker 1: for dinner before you invite them.

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Speaker 7: You should meet my friends.

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Speaker 1: Introverts don't have guests arrive for dinner before you invite them.

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Speaker 10: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like if you send somebody a message, they can't

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Speaker 1: read the message before you send it. Right, that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing would violate causality. It's definitely connected with the

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Speaker 1: flow of time because it has to do with, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, sending messages back in time. One of the

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Speaker 1: reasons we always say that you can't travel back in

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Speaker 1: time is that it would violate causality. You would have

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Speaker 1: effects that influence their own causes. Right, It's like very

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Speaker 1: basic to the way we think about the universe, stepping

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Speaker 1: forwards in time, flowing from now to the future.

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Speaker 7: All right, well, then the question is do we actually

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Speaker 7: need costality? Do we need cost and effect in the

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Speaker 7: universe to make it work? Or are you saying it's

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Speaker 7: sort of maybe like an illusion or something that's apparent

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Speaker 7: but not really needed in the universe. What are we

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Speaker 7: actually asking here? I think the question is whether it's

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Speaker 7: always needed. You know, this is the kind of thing

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Speaker 7: that we observe in the universe. It's definitely part of

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Speaker 7: the universe. But just like with relativity and quantum mechanics.

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Speaker 7: There are some places where it seems like it might

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Speaker 7: not hold together, some like little threads, where it doesn't

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Speaker 7: really work and it isn't really consistent with some other

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Speaker 7: basic principles, and that gives us a clue that maybe

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Speaker 7: it's not always required, and maybe like it comes together

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Speaker 7: in certain circumstances. It's a nice way to describe what

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Speaker 7: often happens in the universe, but it's not actually a

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Speaker 7: fundamental principle, And we can find some places where it's

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Speaker 7: tossed out the window. So who would be the one

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Speaker 7: we cause out? Cause or effect? Which one do you

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Speaker 7: like better?

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Speaker 1: I prefer horses to cows, So let's throw out cowsality.

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Speaker 7: Is it cost or effect? Well, anyways, we were, as usual,

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Speaker 7: were wondering how many people out there had thought about

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Speaker 7: this crazy, deep fundamental question and how many people think

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Speaker 7: they might have an answer to this strange query. So

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Speaker 7: Daniel went out there to the internet to ask people

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Speaker 7: do we need cause and effect?

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Speaker 1: So thank you everybody out there on the Internet who

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Speaker 1: is willing to answer these funny, crazy questions without having

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Speaker 1: a chance to think about it or google it. If

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Speaker 1: you'd like to do that it sounds fun. Do you

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Speaker 1: please write to us to questions at Danielandjorge dot com.

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Speaker 1: We want your.

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Speaker 7: Voice, So think about it for a second. Do you

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Speaker 7: think the universe needs cause and effect? Here's what people

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Speaker 7: had to say.

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Speaker 11: I think that we as human beings probably need it.

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Speaker 11: Whether the universe needs it or existence, probably not. I

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Speaker 11: can imagine a crazy universe where everything was upside down

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Speaker 11: and happened of its own, but as people, I think

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Speaker 11: we wouldn't do very well in such a place.

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Speaker 12: I don't know much about this. It makes me think

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Speaker 12: of the Matrix when the Merovingian is talking about cause

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Speaker 12: and causality or something like that. I understood about that

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Speaker 12: about as much as I understood most of that movie,

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Speaker 12: But without honestly really knowing much about it, I'm going

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Speaker 12: to say no. I know things can kind of happen

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Speaker 12: what seems to be randomly in the universe, and with things,

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Speaker 12: the statistical chances that some of the things that do happen,

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Speaker 12: the statistical chances are so low that it just doesn't

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Speaker 12: seem like there could be a cause for every single

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Speaker 12: thing that can happen, because there's so many different things

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Speaker 12: that can happen, so do we need causality. I'm going

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Speaker 12: with no on that one.

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Speaker 8: I think we need causality because if we didn't have

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Speaker 8: cause and effect, everything would just be chao, because like

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Speaker 8: there would be no reason for anything to happen. Things

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Speaker 8: would stepping on a butterfly would cause something completely crazy

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Speaker 8: to happen, not just like butterfly effect, but like completely bananas.

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Speaker 13: Well, let's I'm thinking of this. You eat, you get fat,

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Speaker 13: cause an effect, and I think we don't need it,

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Speaker 13: and it should be voted out. So we don't need it.

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Speaker 1: We can start a petition, sure.

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Speaker 7: If we need causally, but I mean, if you want

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Speaker 7: to know the part cause an effect, obviously play role

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Speaker 7: in knowing what that one part was.

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Speaker 4: But if we didn't have it and we didn't need it,

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Speaker 4: that would mean the possibility is multi versus, and that'd

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Speaker 4: be so maybe we don't want No.

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Speaker 14: I don't think we need causality. You can have two

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Speaker 14: things that are correlated, like in you know, economics or statistics.

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Speaker 14: You know, they look for correlations and correlations provide information

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Speaker 14: in and of themselves. Maybe it's nice to no causality,

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Speaker 14: but I don't think you necessarily need causality, to get information.

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Speaker 7: All right, some pretty definitive answers here. Nobody seem to

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Speaker 7: sort of stumble a lot.

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Speaker 1: I know, and some people who really think like, nah,

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Speaker 1: we could do without causality. That really surprised me.

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Speaker 7: Oh really, wow, do you think that's human humans?

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Speaker 1: Maybe physics has just been so successful in like knocking

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Speaker 1: down basic pillars of reality that people are ready for,

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Speaker 1: like physics to undermine everything.

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Speaker 7: You're seeing it as a positive, seeing it.

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Speaker 1: As a positive. People are open minded to unraveling the

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Speaker 1: basic nature of their very existence. That's great.

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Speaker 7: Well, I think maybe this goes back to what I

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Speaker 7: asked earlier about what exactly do we mean by causality

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Speaker 7: and not having causality? Like does it mean that you

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Speaker 7: can't have A without B? Or does it mean that

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Speaker 7: you know, as always have to be connected to bs?

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Speaker 7: Do you know what I mean? Like? Can things appear

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Speaker 7: out of nowhere without a cause? Or are we saying

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Speaker 7: that A always has to come before B? You can

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Speaker 7: have B before A? Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 7: Do you me all the difference?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about the ordering of events, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you still can't break random laws of physics. You can't

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Speaker 1: just like create energy from nothing. It's not like it's

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Speaker 1: a free for all out there. We think the universe

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Speaker 1: still does have laws and does follow those laws. We're

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Speaker 1: just not sure that those laws require that A always

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Speaker 1: happens before B.

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Speaker 7: So we're pretty clear that you can't just have B

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Speaker 7: without like the pop out of nowhere. Right, the laws

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Speaker 7: of physics says no.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well depends on exactly what B is, right, Like

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics says, you can particles pop out of the vacuum,

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Speaker 1: but there are rules for that, right, There are ways

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Speaker 1: that it can happen. So we still think that the

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Speaker 1: universe does follow laws. But hey, maybe when the aliens

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Speaker 1: show up, they're like physics, we give up on that

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Speaker 1: a million years ago because we discovered the universe is

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Speaker 1: totally arbitrary deep down. But yes, we still think that

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Speaker 1: the universe follows laws.

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Speaker 7: And so you're saying that what we're asking today is

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Speaker 7: whether or not those laws sort of prescribe a specific

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Speaker 7: order that things have to happen in the universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but not everything in the universe is connected by

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Speaker 1: causal order. Remember, because there's a finite speed of information,

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Speaker 1: there's some things that you can't have an effect on right,

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Speaker 1: Like events that are happening right now in Andromeda, you

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Speaker 1: can't have any effect on with decisions you make right now,

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Speaker 1: because the information from your decision right now to like

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Speaker 1: send a beam of light or whatever won't affect Andromeda

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Speaker 1: for millions of years. So even with causality, there are

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Speaker 1: some parts of the universe that are not causally connected

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Speaker 1: to other parts.

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Speaker 7: All right, Well, let's maybe break it down for people.

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Speaker 7: What exactly do you mean by causality? How do you

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Speaker 7: define causality or cause and effect?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so take two points in space and time, call

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Speaker 1: them A and B for a lack of more creative labels.

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Speaker 1: And here we mean a point in space and in time, right,

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Speaker 1: So we mean like A is at your house at

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Speaker 1: eight am in the morning, and B as you've arrived

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Speaker 1: at work at nine am. So the events have a

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Speaker 1: space and a time in them, all right, And so

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Speaker 1: these two things are causally connected. They have a definite

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Speaker 1: order of events if something that happens at B relies

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Speaker 1: on information from A. Right, So maybe, for example, you

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Speaker 1: brought something with you from home to work. So for example,

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Speaker 1: you brought your breakfast or you forgot your breakfast when

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Speaker 1: you left the house, So something you did at A

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Speaker 1: affects what you do at B. You then need to

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Speaker 1: buy breakfast or steal your coworker's breakfast or something. So

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Speaker 1: those two events are connected causally because something that happens

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Speaker 1: at A influences what happens at B.

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Speaker 7: Meaning like if I want to have breakfast and at

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Speaker 7: my office, I need to have packed it or left

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Speaker 7: the house with that breakfast otherwise there's no way that

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Speaker 7: I could have that breakfast from home.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. And once you get to work and you

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Speaker 1: have breakfast with you or don't, there's nothing you can

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Speaker 1: do to affect A, right, So this is one directional.

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Speaker 1: A can affect B, but B cannot affect A. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we mean by a definite order of events.

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Speaker 1: If A can have influence on B, then B cannot

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Speaker 1: have influence on A. If your decision to leave the

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Speaker 1: house with or without breakfast affects what you do for

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Speaker 1: breakfast at work, then what you do for breakfast at

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Speaker 1: work cannot affect whether or not you leave the house

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Speaker 1: with your breakfast.

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Speaker 7: It can't go backwards, right, I think you're just saying

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Speaker 7: you can't go back in time. But the two are

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Speaker 7: sort of connected, right, Like if I don't have breakfast

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Speaker 7: in my office, then that means didn't leave my home

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Speaker 7: with it. Right, So they're sort of connected, aren't they.

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Speaker 7: But you're saying like one of them affects the other

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Speaker 7: and not the other way around.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Information flow is only in one direction here

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Speaker 1: and here B is part of the sort of the

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Speaker 1: light cone of a Right. We talked about how decisions

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Speaker 1: you make can only influence things around you that are

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Speaker 1: nearby and in your future, and we talked about in

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Speaker 1: a previous podcast how to formalize that. You think about

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Speaker 1: a light cone, which is all the things in your

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Speaker 1: future that you can influence, and you can influence things

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00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 1: that are nearby in your immediate future or things that

444
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: are far away in the deep future, because it's time

445
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 1: for information to get.

446
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 4: There, all right.

447
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 7: So I think you're saying that I didn't leave my

448
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 7: house with my breakfast, therefore I don't have it in

449
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 7: my office. That's the cause and that's the effect.

450
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And there's no way to go to the

451
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,679
Speaker 1: opposite direction.

452
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 7: What would that even mean? Like I'm at my office first,

453
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 7: and then I left the house without the breakfast.

454
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: It would mean that somehow, once you get to your

455
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: office with or without your breakfast, you could still influence

456
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 1: whether you left your house with or without your breakfast.

457
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: That you could like somehow go back and change what

458
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 1: happened at eight am and change your decision based on

459
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: whether or not you had it with you in your

460
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,959
Speaker 1: office at nine am. So you know, making a decision

461
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: at nine am can't influence what happened at eight am.

462
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: That's all we're saying with cause and effect, all.

463
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 7: Right, So then that's cause and effect, and that seems

464
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 7: pretty important for the universe to make sense, right, because

465
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 7: otherwise things would be what inconsistent, Like I can always

466
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 7: you know, create paradoxes and time loops and things like that.

467
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: It does seem pretty basic, right. It's the way that

468
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: we think about physics. When I first got into physics,

469
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: I thought it was amazing because it could predict the future,

470
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: and it predicts the future based on the conditions of

471
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: the present. You know, if you are shooting a cannon

472
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 1: ball at a castle, you can predict its trajectory if

473
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: you know its direction and its velocity, right, those are

474
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 1: the causes, and the effect is like, oh it hits

475
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: the castle. Wall, or it goes over the castle wall.

476
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: And so physics seems to me to be like all

477
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: about using causes to predict effects. You know, that's what

478
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: the laws of physics are. They take the current description

479
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 1: that you use and sort of step it forwards in

480
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: time to the next description. So it seems pretty basic.

481
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 7: All right, Well, it seems basic, which I think is

482
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 7: probably a queue that we're going to challenge that it

483
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 7: might turn out to be wrong. So let's get into

484
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 7: that and what how we can maybe test it or

485
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 7: find out the true answer. But first, let's take a

486
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 7: quick break.

487
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536
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Speaker 1: of cheese into your mouth or enjoy a rich spoonful

537
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Speaker 1: of Greek yogurt. You're probably not thinking about the environmental

538
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Speaker 1: impact of each and every bite, but the people in

539
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Speaker 1: the dairy industry are. US Dairy has set themselves some

540
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Speaker 1: ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty

541
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Speaker 1: to fifty. That's why they're working hard every day to

542
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543
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Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example, most

544
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Speaker 1: dairy farms reuse water up to four times the same

545
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Speaker 1: water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, and

546
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Speaker 1: irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases.

547
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550
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Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

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Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

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554
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Speaker 1: dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

555
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 7: All right, we're talking about cause and effect and whether

556
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 7: you actually need it to make a happy universe. I guess, right,

557
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 7: a functioning the.

558
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: Universe, Yeah, exactly, whether we can make sense of our

559
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: universe without causality, or whether it's actually absolutely fundamentally required

560
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: for anything that makes sense to us.

561
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 7: Okay, So then we define causality as like I shoot

562
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 7: an arrow and an apple and it hits the apple,

563
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 7: But I can't do it the other way around, Like

564
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 7: I can't have hit the apple before shooting the.

565
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: Arrow, exactly, because if you hit the apple before you

566
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: shoot the arrow, you could like change your mind and

567
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: not shoot the arrow, and then oops, you already hit it.

568
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: How can you change your mind? It seems to like

569
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: automatically make no sense. It seems like a paradox.

570
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 7: As you said, it seems to be sort of connected

571
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 7: to the arrow of time, right, like time only flows

572
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 7: one way. But there's a little bit more to it

573
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 7: than that, right.

574
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: There's a little bit more to it than that. And

575
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: of course the thing that makes things weird and twist

576
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: your brain and maybe give us an escape from causality

577
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: is going to end up being quantum mechanics.

578
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 7: Course, of course, want the mechanics always your brain. So

579
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 7: that seems that I think I'm guessing it's going to

580
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 7: add some sort of uncertainty or randomness to causality.

581
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and before we get to quantum mechanics, I think

582
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: it's important that you have in your mind a clear

583
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: picture of the part of the universe that you can

584
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: affect with your causes. This is again this concept of

585
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: a light cone. Right, if you send out a flash

586
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: of light right now, you like, turn on a really

587
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: bright light, then who can tell that you have done that?

588
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: People who are really far away from you cannot see

589
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: that right now. They have to wait until the future,

590
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: and people that are even further away have to wait

591
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: to the deeper future to see that flash of light.

592
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: Because light travels are the fastest speed of information, people

593
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: who haven't seen that flash of light can't be influenced

594
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: by it yet. Right, So we think about that as

595
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: a light cone. In two dimensions, you can imagine yourself

596
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: sort of the tip of a triangle that's opening up

597
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: as time goes on, and you can influence more and

598
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: more of the future based on your decisions of the present.

599
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: In three D it's sort of like you know you're

600
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: at the tip of a cone right now, and it's

601
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: opening up right.

602
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 7: I guess maybe I wonder if you can talk about

603
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 7: the breakfast cone of my breakfast Okay, took out when

604
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 7: I left my home, Like you're saying, like there's this

605
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 7: sort of a limited number of time and places that

606
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 7: I can be at with my breakfast if I chose

607
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 7: to leave my house with my breakfast, right Like, I

608
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 7: can't instantly be at my work with breakfast because I

609
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 7: can't get there in time. And also I can't be

610
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 7: in like China in an hour with my breakfast right

611
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 7: because I'm limited to by how fast I can move exactly.

612
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: And so if you're going to your office pretty close by,

613
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: then you can bring your breakfast with you, and that

614
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: can influence your coworkers. Are they going to try to

615
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: steal your breakfast? Do they forget their own breakfast? Are

616
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: they influenced by the smell of your breakfast? This kind

617
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: of stuff. But the you know, podcast headquarters in Shanghai,

618
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: for example, can't be influenced by that decision until later,

619
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: until your light cone has grown to expand and include

620
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: all of those things. So there are things that you

621
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: cannot influence right now in the universe just because of

622
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: this finite speed of light, and so everything you can influence.

623
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: We call that part of your light.

624
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 7: Cone, right, or breakfast cone, which, by the way, sounds

625
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 7: like a great breakfast idea for McDonald's or one of

626
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 7: these fast food chains.

627
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: Breakfast cone that sounds like scrambled egg flavored ice cream

628
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: that does not sound acurian to.

629
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 7: Mean, or scrambled eggs on a cone.

630
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: Scrambled eggs on a cone. Actually, that might be a

631
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 1: great food truck. You know, that's the kind of thing

632
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: you would see in La with like a huge line

633
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: of hipsters, you know.

634
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 7: Right, yeah, breakfast cones. It's making happen, all right. So

635
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 7: then how do these light cones affect our sense of

636
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 7: cause and effect?

637
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: Well, the interesting thing about light cones is that they're

638
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: pretty simple. If the universe is not bent, right, if

639
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: space is flat, if my light moves in straight lines

640
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: like it does out in deep space, then they're just

641
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: like we talked about them. They're triangles and two dimensions,

642
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: or they're cones in three D. But they get more

643
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: complicated when space bends. You know that gravity is not

644
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: just a force, it's also a description of the way

645
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: that the universe bends, that space itself bends when we

646
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: are near heavy objects. So the reason, for example, the

647
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: Earth goes around the Sun is not because there's a

648
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: force of gravity pulling on it, but because the Sun

649
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: bends space. And so the Earth is moving in a path,

650
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: which is actually quite natural for an object under no force.

651
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: It's moving in a circle. And so the same thing

652
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: happens to light cones. If you are near something massive

653
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: like a black hole or a star or whatever, your

654
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: light cone bends because the path that light takes also bends.

655
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: So the things you can influence change.

656
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 7: Now you're making me think of bugles, you know, the snack,

657
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 7: but the curved cones. I think maybe I should have

658
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 7: some breakfast before recording these podcasts.

659
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: But this is important for our food truck. We can't

660
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: have curve cones because then the eggs will all fall out, right.

661
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 7: What this is why physicists shouldn't be cooks. But anyways,

662
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 7: going back to our topic, you're saying, as you know,

663
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 7: space can bend, and that can bend or light cones,

664
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 7: and that can somehow effect cause and effect. That you

665
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 7: can break cost and effect by bending space.

666
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't break cause and effect. Yet it just

667
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: changes what you can affect. For example, say you're inside

668
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: a black hole and you make your breakfast. You cannot

669
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: influence what people eat or who gets breakfast outside of

670
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: the black hole. Right, this concept of a light cone

671
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: inside a black hole, it gets twisted. The light cone

672
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: only points towards the center of the black hole. If

673
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: you're near a black hole, your light cone is distorted.

674
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: If you send out a flash of light, or you know,

675
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: shoot a bunch of breakfasts at your friends, they don't

676
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: all just travel in straight paths. And so there are

677
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: some people who are actually near you who you cannot

678
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: influence because of the bending of space. The point is

679
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: the bending of space determines which causes lineup with which

680
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: effects I see.

681
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 7: So it's not that you're saying cost and effect is

682
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 7: flexible in a way.

683
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. As you're near some heavy mass, then which

684
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: cause in which effects lineup depends exactly on the curvature

685
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: of space, because it depends on how information travels. You know,

686
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: if you can't send a light pulse to somebody, then

687
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: you can't send them information. Then your causes cannot influence

688
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: their effects, all.

689
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 7: Right, So we can limit cause and effect. But I

690
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 7: guess the question is can we break it or do

691
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 7: we need it? And you're saying that things start to

692
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 7: get weird when you add quantum mechanics.

693
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So now we've done special relativity with light cones,

694
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: we went to general relativity by bending those light cones

695
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: through space. Now we're going to add in the final ingredient,

696
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: which is quantum mechanics. Right, say we're near this black hole,

697
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: so our light cone is all twisted and bent, and

698
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: who we can influence and talk about breakfast with depends

699
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: on the curvature of space. But what if the curvature

700
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: of space itself was uncertain? Like what if we didn't

701
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: know exactly where that black hole was because it was

702
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: like created from some quantum process, So I had a

703
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: probability to be here and a probability to be over there,

704
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: then we would have like two possible light cones, which

705
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: would mean like two possible portions of the universe that

706
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: we could influence.

707
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,439
Speaker 7: But I wonder, do you actually need the black hole

708
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 7: to get those two possible light cones? Like, you know,

709
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 7: isn't there quantum uncertainty in everything? Right? Like if I

710
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 7: leave my house, there's a maybe a fifty percent chance

711
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 7: that I took a right and a fifty percent chance

712
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 7: I took it left. And so there's two possible breakfast.

713
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: Cones, two possible breakfast cones. Yes, the black hole is

714
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: just the extreme example because it's easy to think about

715
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: how the black hole changes the shape of your light cone.

716
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: It's very dramatic. But every time there's quantum uncertainty, and

717
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: that uncertainty leads to uncertainty in where stuff is in

718
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: the universe. That means it's uncertainty about the curvature of space,

719
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: which means this uncertainty about the causality. Right, if I

720
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: don't know where the black hole is or where Jorge's

721
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: breakfast went, then I can't necessarily predict which part of

722
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: the universe I can influence.

723
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 7: Okay, so then there's some uncertainty in the light cones

724
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 7: and two possible futures. So then how does that causality?

725
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: Well, you can imagine some experiments, right Like let's say,

726
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: for example, we have two people doing experiments, and in

727
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics thought experiments, people always use Alice and Bob

728
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: because they're you know, A and b. Maybe we can

729
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: mix it up a little bit you can think of

730
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: more clever names. But we have two people doing experiments

731
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: somewhere out in space, and their experiments depend, for example,

732
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: on how close they are to the Earth, right, because

733
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: the Earth is going to bend space, and you know that,

734
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: for example, if you are near the Earth, then your

735
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: time slows down because gravitational time dilation makes clocks run

736
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: slower like Clocks closer to the Earth run more slowly

737
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: than clocks further from the Earth. So now we have

738
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: these two experimenters. They're out in space. One of them

739
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: is closer to the Earth than the other one, right,

740
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: But if the Earth's location is uncertain, we don't know

741
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: which one it is. So now one of them has

742
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: had their time slow down more than the other one.

743
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: So one of them can influence the other because their

744
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: time has been slowed down. So, for example, if Alice

745
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: has had her time slowed more, then she hasn't gotten

746
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: as far in her experiment, and Bob can send her

747
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: a message influencing her experiment. But if Bob has had

748
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: his time slowed down more, then Alice can influence his experiment.

749
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: So we don't know necessarily which way causality goes from

750
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: Alice to Bob, or from Bob to Alice, because we

751
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: don't know where Earth is and that determines where these

752
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: light cones flow.

753
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 7: Okay, well, first of all, I'm a little worried we

754
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 7: can't find the Earth. That's a little concerning. I think

755
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 7: you're saying, like Alice and Bob are doing the same experiment, right,

756
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 7: Like you're trying to figure out what inside of a box,

757
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 7: and they have maybe the same box, And you're saying,

758
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 7: if one of them is moving at a different time rate,

759
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 7: then like if one of them has time moving faster

760
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 7: for them, they could finish the experiment and then run

761
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 7: over and tell the other one what's in the box exactly.

762
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: Or maybe they're like trying to unlock somebody's phone and

763
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: they're trying to guess codes or something. And if Alice's

764
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: time runs more slowly, then Bob can try a bunch

765
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 1: of codes, and if he finds one, he can send

766
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: Alice a message saying, oh, try this one, or don't

767
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: try these I already try them. That's if Alice's time

768
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: is running more slowly. If it's the opposite, like the

769
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: Earth happens to be in another situation where it slows

770
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: down Bob's time, then Alice can finish her experiment first.

771
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: So who finishes the experiment first and who can send

772
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 1: a message to the other one about their results depends

773
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: on who is closer to the gravitational object that's slowing

774
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: down time. And you know, it sounds weird to say, like, well,

775
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: how do we not know where the Earth is? It's

776
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: a crazy thought experiment where we've like put the Earth

777
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: in some sort of crazy quantum mechanical superposition, so we

778
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: don't know where it is. That's pretty hard to imagine.

779
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: But this is what we do when we try to

780
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: understand like the extremes of the universe. We come up

781
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: with these crazy experiments to understand whether the rules are

782
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: broken in extreme situations.

783
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 7: I wonder if you've been simplify by just talking about

784
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 7: like shrod Inger's box, right, Like you're saying, let's put

785
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 7: the earth Alice and Bob inside of a box, and

786
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 7: we sort of don't know where the Earth is, and

787
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 7: so from us sitting outside of the box, we don't

788
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 7: know who told who about the results of their experiment.

789
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, this sounds like Shortinger's prisoner's dilemma. Sounds catastrophic exactly,

790
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: So we don't know then what has happened inside the box?

791
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: Was it Alice and then Bob? Or was it Bob

792
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: and then Alice? And so in this situation, because the

793
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: position of the light cones is uncertain, causality is uncertain.

794
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: And so in this kind of experiment, it's like, well,

795
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: which happened was it A before B or B before A?

796
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: So now causality has become uncertain. Remember the very beginning,

797
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: we define causality saying, well, if A can influence B,

798
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: you know A causes B to that means it's impossible for

799
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: B to cause A. So in this experiment, like we

800
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: have two events and we can't say which one happened first,

801
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: and they do influence each other. One is definitely inside

802
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: the light cone or the other. We just don't know which.

803
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 7: Right, But that's just sort of isn't that sort of

804
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 7: regular quantum mechanics, Like we don't really know whether the

805
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 7: kata is alive or dead anyways?

806
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, we don't know quantum mechanics whether the

807
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: cat is or live or dead. But we've added in

808
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: another element here, which is causality, because now quantum mechanics

809
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: is influencing the very shape of space which determines which

810
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: events can happen in what order. In this classical Schutinger's

811
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: box example, you know, the causality is clear, like you know,

812
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: the radioactive element decays and it either kills the cat

813
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: or it does not. The order of events is clear,

814
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: even though which events happens is not right. It's not

815
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: like the cat can escape and then rebuild the box

816
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: or something. You can't have anything going backwards in that experiment.

817
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: Here we might have things happening in an indefinite order

818
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: because we've made the shape of space itself uncertain, and

819
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: it's that shape of space that determines what can influence

820
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: what because it controls the shape of the light cone.

821
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 7: All right, So then the causality of what happened inside

822
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 7: the box is uncertain. There's a quantum uncertainty about it.

823
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 7: But does that really mean that causality broke or it's

824
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 7: not needed or it's do you know what I mean? Like,

825
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 7: it's just that we don't know, right, how does that

826
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 7: sort of break things about the universe?

827
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it means that maybe causality is not always needed.

828
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: You know, it seems like it's the kind of thing

829
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: that happens a lot most of the time. In most circumstances,

830
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: you don't get huge uncertain bending of space that makes

831
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 1: causality uncertain. So causality is probably like a very effective principle.

832
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: But you know, we want to understand the deep nature

833
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: of the universe, not just like, hey, this mostly works,

834
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: let's move on. We want to understand how things actually work.

835
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: And right now we have these two really key ideas

836
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: about the way the universe works, quantum mechanics, which tells

837
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,479
Speaker 1: us things that are fundamentally uncertain, and general relativity, which

838
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: tells us how space bends around mass. And we'd like

839
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: to merge those two. We'd like to have a theory

840
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: of quantum gravity that tells us, you know, how quantum

841
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: mechanics and gravity play well together. Well, this suggests that,

842
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: you know, we might have to give up causality if

843
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: we want to merge them. That if we want to

844
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: bring quantum mechanics in general relativity together, then these two

845
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: concepts might not play well together. You know, they seem

846
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: to create these situations with uncertain causality. And so maybe

847
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: the key to finding a theory of quantum gravity and

848
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: revealing the deep nature of the universe is to give

849
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: up on causality, to say it happens a lot. It's convenient,

850
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 1: it's nice, but it's not actually always required.

851
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 7: I guess maybe it's hard to see sort of the

852
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 7: stakes here with Bob and Alice, because you know, like

853
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 7: whether one of them tells the other first or the second, maybe, uh,

854
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 7: it doesn't you know, sort of affect my reality that much.

855
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 7: But can you think of an example of where like

856
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 7: this uncertainty in causality would sort of have more I

857
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 7: don't know, sort of like deeper repercussions.

858
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 12: You know.

859
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: I think that physicists are still struggling to get their

860
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: minds around the consequences here. And we'll talk in a

861
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: minute about like experiments people are doing to try to

862
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: use this. We're developing ideas for like how to improve

863
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: computation or you know, make information transmission actually more efficient,

864
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: or change the very nature of or dynamics. But it's

865
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: something that's so basic and fundamental to our thinking that

866
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: we're having trouble even like contemplating what physics would look

867
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: like without causality, and so it's hard to get your

868
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: mind around like how that would actually influence the universe.

869
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 7: All right, well, I think basically what you're saying though,

870
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 7: is that you know, there are situations where quantum mechanics

871
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 7: can throw uncertainty about the order of things, right, Like,

872
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 7: there can be situations where we don't know if A

873
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 7: came before B or B came before A, and so

874
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 7: because there are situations where we don't know, maybe the

875
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 7: question is do we actually need it? Right? That's I

876
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 7: think that's what you're getting at. It's like, maybe since

877
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 7: it's not something that has to be known, maybe it's

878
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,240
Speaker 7: something we don't even need in the universe.

879
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe it's not something the universe demands, you know,

880
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: the same way when you have quantum entanglement. You might

881
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: have like two particles that are far away in uncertain

882
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: states about you know, what direction their spin is, and

883
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: we like to think, oh, man, but there has to

884
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: be a real truth there. It has to either be

885
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: this or that. You know, there has to be some

886
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: deep hidden knowledge. And we discovered actually the universe doesn't care.

887
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: The universe is happy to have that be uncertain, the

888
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: true nature of these particles. And now we're taking that

889
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: a step further and saying, look, maybe the universe doesn't

890
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: really care always whether A happen before B, or B

891
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: happened before A. Maybe it's happy to have that be uncertain,

892
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: for it to be undetermined, which is pretty hard for

893
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: us to consider.

894
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 7: All Right, well, maybe we don't need causality, but we

895
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 7: definitely need to pay for this podcast, so that's the

896
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 7: one cost in effect we can't ignore. So let's talk

897
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 7: about how you might test whether or not this theory

898
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 7: is right, or whether or not you actually do need

899
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 7: caustality in the universe. But first, let's take a quick break.

900
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

901
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

902
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

903
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are us. Dairy

904
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being green

905
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 1: how gas neutral by twenty to fifty That's why they're

906
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

907
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

908
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

909
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

910
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

911
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

912
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

913
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

914
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

915
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,439
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

916
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

917
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

918
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

919
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,919
Speaker 3: Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which

920
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 3: recently hit the number one science podcast in America.

921
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 4: I mean neuroscientists at Stanford, and.

922
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 3: I've spent my career exploring the three pound universe in

923
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 3: our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of

924
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 3: episodes this season to understan and why and how our

925
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: lives look the way they do. Why does your memory

926
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 3: drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep

927
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: a secret, When should you not trust your intuition? Why

928
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Speaker 3: do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why

929
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and

930
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 3: hundreds more, because the more we know about what's running

931
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: under the hood, better we can steer our lives.

932
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 4: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

933
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.

934
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Speaker 3: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app,

935
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Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

936
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Speaker 6: Parents, are you looking for a screen free, engaging way

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960
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Speaker 7: All Right, So, Daniel, apparently maybe the universe doesn't need causality,

961
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 7: you know, or maybe the I think what you're saying

962
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 7: is that maybe the universe doesn't really care that much

963
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 7: about causality. Like it could go either way.

964
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 1: Exactly. It's like effect before cause, cause before effect. Whatever.

965
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: As long as I got my breakfast cone, I'm.

966
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 7: Fine, Yeah, whatever, as long as I got bacon and

967
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 7: my scrambled egg cone.

968
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

969
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: And again, let me just reiterate, this doesn't mean that

970
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: anything goes that you should just like go out there

971
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: and steal jewelry and whatever. There are no consequences for

972
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: your actions. Right, You're still going to prison if you

973
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: steal money from your local grocery store. It just means

974
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: that sometimes in scenarios where there are two possible orders

975
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: for events, the universe might not pick between.

976
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 7: Them, right, Yeah, It might leave things undecided and go

977
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 7: about its happy way.

978
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Physicists call this indefinite causality, so not like

979
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: a complete overthrow of causality, but like an important wakening,

980
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: you know, to say like, ooh, this a cracking causality.

981
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: There are cases when you don't have to know what

982
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: happens first.

983
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 7: What if you just call it causality.

984
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: Ish diet causality.

985
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, there you go. All right, so that's a possibility.

986
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 7: And it seems like the universe, you know, it's kind

987
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 7: of fuzzy about causality. And so are there experiments to

988
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 7: sort of test this or to figure out what the

989
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 7: right answer is In physics, Yeah.

990
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: There are some really cool experiments. People came up with

991
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: these ideas in the two thousands and sort of playing

992
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: with them as they were trying to stitch together quantum

993
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: mechanics and general relativity to think about quantum gravity and

994
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: realized maybe this is the stumbling block. Maybe this is

995
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: the piece we need to get rid of so that

996
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: everything else clicks together nicely. And so they tried to

997
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: make some experiments. Then you know, it's hard to have

998
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: black holes or to put the Earth in a quantum superposition.

999
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: So they came up with a totally different set of experiments.

1000
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: And it's mostly folks who are working on things like

1001
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: quantum information, where you know, they are like splitting photon

1002
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: beams and polarizing them and capturing the information in them

1003
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: and not in them and this kind of stuff. They

1004
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 1: were able to do experiments that probe this kind of thing.

1005
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 7: All right, So then how does the experiment work? What's

1006
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 7: going on?

1007
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what you do is you take a beam

1008
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: of photons. These are just you know, like it's a

1009
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 1: laser beam essentially, and you have these particles flying out

1010
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: and then you split them. You use this one of

1011
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: these beams splitters, so like half the photons go one

1012
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: way and half the photons go the other way, and

1013
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: then you send the photons through two different paths. Along

1014
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: one path you do A to the photons and then

1015
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: B and then along the other path you do B

1016
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: and then you do A. And what does that mean

1017
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: to do A or do B. It's like you perform

1018
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: some operation, you change the photons a little bit. In

1019
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: this case, what they did is they polarize the photons.

1020
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: Photons are more than just like packs of light. They

1021
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: have like little spins to them. You can change the

1022
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: way those spins are pointed, and so along one path

1023
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 1: they like flip the spins one way and then another

1024
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: along the other path. They do it in the opposite.

1025
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 7: Order, right, They sort of run it through some filters, right.

1026
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You can think about it like that, running

1027
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: it through some filters. And the key thing is that

1028
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: the order matters, Like the photons look different if you

1029
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: do A and then B versus B and then A.

1030
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: And you know this can happen because sometimes these are

1031
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: things that are conceptually the same as like rotations, where

1032
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: you know it matters what order you do them. It's

1033
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: like if you turn around and then you turn left,

1034
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: it's different than if you turn left and then turn around.

1035
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 7: All right, So then I have a laser beam. I

1036
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 7: split it and in one half of it I do

1037
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 7: A and B, and the other side I do B

1038
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 7: and then A. And then what I compare them to

1039
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 7: see if something different happens.

1040
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: And then you bring them back together, right, you rejoin them,

1041
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: and now you have photons and you don't know which

1042
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: path they took, do they do the AB path or

1043
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: the BA path? And what you see when it comes

1044
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 1: out is a really interesting interference pattern between photons that

1045
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: went through AB and then photons that went through B A.

1046
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: And it's like in sort of the double slit experiment

1047
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: where particles could have gone through one slit or the

1048
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 1: other and the probability to have gone through one or

1049
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: the other interferes with the first ones. Then you get

1050
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: these interference patterns. So this interference patterns means that you

1051
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: really do have photons from both in your beam, and

1052
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: that for any given photon, you don't know whether it

1053
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: went through AB or whether it went through BA. So

1054
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: what you're seeing is this interference pattern between the probabilities,

1055
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: which means that both possibilities exist for any given photon.

1056
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 1: Each photon has a possibility to have gone through one

1057
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:33,879
Speaker 1: side or the other.

1058
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 7: Oh, I see. It's like you take those two beams

1059
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 7: and then you join them again, and then you look

1060
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 7: the photons that come out, and when you get a

1061
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 7: photon out of that joint beam. You don't know whether

1062
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 7: it went through AB or BA, but it sort of

1063
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 7: looks like it went through both at the same time,

1064
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 7: sort of like the cat alive and death exactly.

1065
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: And so here these photons have had an experience that

1066
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: has indefinite causality. Right, we don't know what the order

1067
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: of events was for these photons, and it matters, right,

1068
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: AB has different photons than BA, and sort an individual photon,

1069
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,439
Speaker 1: there's a probability of one or probability of the other,

1070
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: and that leads to this really interesting interference pattern. So

1071
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: you can see that this is actually happening. It's not

1072
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: like you have just two different groups of photons, ones

1073
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: that are AB and ones that are BA. Every photon

1074
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: now has a probability of having one order or the other.

1075
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 7: Right, But I guess, you know, looking at this skeptically,

1076
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 7: it's not like you did the same thing A and

1077
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 7: B in different orders, but they went through different filters

1078
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 7: kind of right, they took a different path through space.

1079
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 7: So it's sort of not like I'm not really changing

1080
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,839
Speaker 7: the order of events. I'm changing the path, that's right.

1081
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: But in this case, the path determines the order of

1082
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: events and you're right, it's not exactly analogous to what

1083
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 1: we're talking about before with light cones and the bending

1084
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: of space. It's a different way to try to construct

1085
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: indefinite causality. You're right, they're not exactly physically the same filters, right.

1086
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 7: It's sort of like a standing for having done the

1087
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 7: same thing in a different.

1088
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 1: Order, yes, exactly, because you can't do that. You can't

1089
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: like reverse time and do the experiment again in the

1090
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 1: other order and then rejoin it. That would be super

1091
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: awesome if you could do that, but here we separate

1092
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: them in the space instead.

1093
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 7: That would be a dessert cone for sure. But I

1094
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 7: think what you're saying is that they did this experiment

1095
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 7: and it confirmed that. You know, it's sort of like

1096
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 7: you can have two different orders at the same time

1097
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 7: happening quantum mechanically.

1098
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: Exactly, and what they do are really cool things with correlations.

1099
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: It's just like with bells inequality. You know, the example

1100
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: of having two quantum entangled particles, where you know if

1101
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: one is spin up, the other one has to be

1102
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: spinned down, and to prove that they are not determined

1103
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: until you open one box, even if they're really far apart.

1104
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 1: You have to do these really subtle experiments called probing

1105
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: bells inequality that show that you can get like correlations

1106
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: between the two boxes that you can't have otherwise in

1107
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: the same way they do that here, they like change

1108
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: what A and br they rotate them, and they get

1109
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: these correlations between one side and the other that you

1110
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: can't have if causality was definite. So you have to

1111
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: have indefinite causality to see the specific results of these experiments.

1112
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: The patterns, the numbers that they get out cannot be

1113
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: reproduced if causality is definitely If every photon actually went

1114
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: to one side or the other and then merges, that

1115
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 1: does not explain the results of the experiment. It has

1116
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: to be indefinite to get the interference patterns and the

1117
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: correlations that they see, right, all.

1118
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 7: Right, So then it sort of confirms that the universe

1119
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 7: is constally ish definitely causal. So then what does that

1120
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 7: mean for us, Like, does that mean that we can

1121
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 7: now break the rules to do cool things or does

1122
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 7: it mean that, you know, it's just another sort of

1123
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 7: step in our sort of befuddlement with quantum mechanics.

1124
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: Is there some rule in particular you're hoping to get

1125
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: to break you're looking for permission.

1126
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I want to eat the breakfast cone

1127
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 7: and not gain weight. Can we sort of reverse the

1128
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 7: cause and effect there exactly?

1129
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: Or you can eat breakfast any time of day. No,

1130
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: there are some potential applications to this. You know, anytime

1131
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,720
Speaker 1: you gain some new insight to the way the universe works,

1132
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: you can come up with some ways to take advantage

1133
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: of that insight to do something you couldn't do before.

1134
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 1: And so people are thinking carefully about what this means,

1135
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: and there's some cool things that you can do, Like

1136
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: you can send more information over noisy channels by using

1137
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 1: indefinite causality to encode some of that extra information, or

1138
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: people have come up with like weird quantum computers where

1139
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: two halves of the computer are not linked by causality,

1140
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: and so they can like both do their calculation before

1141
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: the other one and send the results to the other one,

1142
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: and so you can sort of like skip steps there

1143
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: and sort of like cheat in time, which is pretty cool.

1144
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: So there's some ways people are thinking about using this.

1145
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: For me, it's not about the applications, it's about making

1146
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: progress to this ultimate theory. You know, we want a

1147
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,879
Speaker 1: deep picture of the universe, and we want to understand

1148
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: how the bending of space is consistent with quantum mechanics

1149
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: and all this crazy stuff. And so it might just

1150
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: be that this very way we think about the universe,

1151
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: causality isn't always required. It's like it usually happens. It's

1152
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 1: most of the time a good way to describe things,

1153
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: but not something that you have to have at the

1154
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: basic core in all the deep equations.

1155
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 7: And so that would you think maybe give us some

1156
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 7: insight into merging these two theories together, quantum mechanics and

1157
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 7: general relativity.

1158
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, this is a stumbling block, right, as we

1159
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: talked about before. If you have general relativity, which bends space,

1160
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: and you have quantum mechanics, which makes that bending uncertain,

1161
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: then causality is no longer clear. And that's been a

1162
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: problem for quantum gravity. So maybe the answer is, like, well,

1163
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: just act like it's not a problem. Maybe it's actually okay,

1164
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: you know, maybe this wasn't a wall in our progress.

1165
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: We just need to sort of like not worry about

1166
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: it so much.

1167
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's my favorite way to deal with problems, Daniel,

1168
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 7: Just ignore them, Just don't look at the scale when

1169
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 7: you weigh yourself and then you don't.

1170
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: Have to worry about causativefect Well, it is an important

1171
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: lesson in the way we think about things. You know,

1172
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: we put up mental barriers. Sometimes we imagine like, oh,

1173
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,479
Speaker 1: well that's impossible and it can't be. And then later

1174
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: people come along and they're like, well, actually, why not

1175
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: or you know, why are we following this rule? Is

1176
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: this really actually important? And then they discover this is

1177
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: a whole rich area of exploration. You know, think about

1178
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: like imaginary numbers. People for a long time thought, well,

1179
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous, it's nonsense, but it turns out to be

1180
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: really important branch of mathematics for understanding the way the

1181
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: universe works. And so sometimes you got to like knock

1182
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 1: on these mental walls and discover that there's actually lots

1183
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: of interesting territory on the other side.

1184
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that should be your new slogan for physics,

1185
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 7: you know, physics colon. Why not? You know Nike has

1186
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 7: just do it? You should have.

1187
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: Why not haven't destroyed the universe yet?

1188
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 7: Why not put scrambled eggs in a code?

1189
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: Seriously, that's a great idea.

1190
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 7: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. And you know,

1191
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 7: got you to think a little bit about what we

1192
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 7: think is certain in this universe. Maybe things are not

1193
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 7: as certain as we think they are, even the basic

1194
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 7: logic of how and when things happen.

1195
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: And that goes to show you that there are still

1196
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: deep and basic questions out there that people are struggling

1197
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: with about the nature of the universe. And maybe what

1198
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: we're missing is one really cool flash of insight. And

1199
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: maybe you will have that flash of insight and revolutionize

1200
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: the way everybody thinks about the universe.

1201
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 7: Why not, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1202
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 7: joining us, See you next time.

1203
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1204
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

1205
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop

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1224
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Speaker 12: Hi.

1225
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 3: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

1226
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm I

1227
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 3: mean neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring

1228
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 3: the three pound universe in our heads.

1229
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 4: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

1230
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life. Because the more we

1231
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood, better we can

1232
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 3: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

1233
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1234
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 3: your podcasts.